honestly its really funny to ve how people will go "what the fuck you cant like the boyfriends webcomic !!! the creator is a proshipper !!!!" but then have an owl house pfp or a dhmis pfp or a gravity falls pfp or a hannibal pfp or

I'm growing more exhausted with this community's fucking behavior

Vent under cut

I've talked privately before about this but I'm so sick and tired of Rise Twitter behavior on this site. Legit that's why I LEFT.

Y'all are so ready to call people and things fucked up lables instead of leaving well enough alone. You're taking shit at fave value and refusing to budge on things.

I'm gonna rip the band-aid off:

THESE CHARACTERS ARE NOT REAL AND NOT EVERYTHING WILL BE CATERED TO YOU

They aren't gonna behave or act how you think they should and they're tools to tell a story. No matter the type of story no matter how dark and no matter how kid friendly it is.

Don't like April x Any of the turtles because you feel that's incest. Block tags and the artists and move on.

Don't like Tcest? Block the tags and artists and move on.

Don't like an artist/author because they create adult turtle nsfw, block the tags and creator and move on.

But no. Instead y'all rather labe people as things. And I seen this community label folks with shit with no context, no evidence or ignoring jokes.

And majority of you all are adults encouraging this behavior from minors and honestly that's predatory and sad. ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE ENCOURAGING HARASSMENT TOWARDS MINORS

No one is a "neutral", or a "proshipper" and evil because they don't care for something you deem problematic. No one is a "tcester " because they choose to ignore your weird witch hunt for an artist who "could be a tcester".

The amount of dms I have gotten claiming a few of my moots are tcesters, and when I ask for evidence y'all get allergic to evidence real fast regardless of the topic💅

If you read this far lemme make this clear:

I don't ship tcest, April x Any of the turtles, Casey Jr x Any of the turtles, or any other ship or content seen problematic for my personal reasons.

But I do not care if other people doing public or private. And have those tags blocked and it does the job for me and I leave those creators ALONE.

TLDR: STOP HARASSING AND BULLYING PEOPLE JUST BECAUSE TGEY MAKE SOMETHING THAT ISN'T CATTERED TO YOU.

hiii arcade!! sorry if this ask comes off as rude that is not my point! i absolutely admire your work!! thats why im concerned

i saw the ask abt how mareggie were watgbs fan chars originally and in case you dont know the game [wadanohara] is full proship towards the end and the creator is a known proshipper as well! as far as im concerned you dont like those things so like i guess this ask is just to reassure myself you dont support funamusea (the creator of the game) and,,, stuff,,,

This is a concern I see once in a while so I guess I better address it before people see it fit to start spreading rumors about me *cracks knuckles*

TRIGGER WARNING below for discussions of rape

I have played the whole of Wadanohara, I know all of what happens in it already.

Do I agree with all of it? Well, no, not really. Do I still enjoy the game despite the parts focused on rape and sexual assault? Yeah, I do!

When it comes to someone creating their own original content, at the end of the day, we have to accept that some people are just going to create whatever the hell they want no matter how gross or disturbing or immoral we find it. And from there we have to decide how we are going to handle it.

I am able to look at Wadanohara and say "I like this game, I think it has a lot of good and fun aspects to it. However, I can acknowledge that the topic of rape is handled in a way that, to me, feels fetishistic and its portrayal is one that makes me uncomfortable."

I think it is always important to view things to realm of nuance, and that viewing things critically doesn't mean discarding them as soon as they do something problematic. I still like Wadanohara and a few other Funamusea games. I can still disagree with the way Funamusea handles topics like rape/sexual assault. I can like Wadanohara. I can find the rape scenes mishandled and gratuitous and gross. These ideas don't have to be at odds with one another. They can coexist.

One last thing I would like to add is that I think we as a society should learn to drop terms like "proship" and "anti". Everything you encounter will come with context and nuance. We don't have to say "I dislike this thing because it's proship". It is easier and more understandable to say "I dislike this thing because the way it handles topics like rape/assault/etc feels inappropriate and like it lacks nuance".

(Also this isn't me trying to "start beef" with Funamusea or anything. I am not saying she can't make what she makes, I'm just stating my own opinion on it and personal feelings towards it. And regardless of how I or anyone else feels, people will always create the content they want to create.)

This starts off as like an argument about hobie's age, but kinds turns into a vent/complaining post at the end. It all has to do with punkflower and hobie, but it kinda gets away from the point lol

Okay, so about hobie's age: he is probably around miles' and gwen's age or it is just up to interpretation. He is not confirmed to be 19/20, in the video that keeps being spread, if you watch the full video to get the context of what the director was saying, he is talling about the early concept/comic book version of hobie. Like, just straight up not the movie version. Which doesn't mean anything because a whole lot has changed between the comics and the movie, like, other spider people have been aged down for the movie. Anyways, people bring up two other things as well: hobie saying he goes to the pub and has a flat. One, if he is 18, then I think he can go to a pub in Britain. But also he is an anarchist who hates the police, so he'd probably sneak into a pub and drink if he was like 16 or 17. Two, for the flat, we could assume he is like his comic book version and is a squatter, which means he doesn't own the place himself. I mean, I just also don't think hobie would like landlords anyway, and would rather be homeless than pay them (because he does, in the comics at least). Also, from various different sources including the other directors and possibly the art book, his age is up to interpretation/unconfirmed, and is around gwen and miles' age. I'm waiting to get the art book to confirm the last fact, but anyways. The point is, thinking of hobie as a teenager/close in age to milee's and gwen isn't a bad thing/doesn't someone a proshipper. If people are interpreting his age as being close to miles' age and then shipping them, then that's not a proship! Barely anyone ships them and thinks hobie is an adult (and those who do are the proshippers), and proshipping means they're okay with all ships - even the problematic ones. But if you think hobie isn't an adult, then it isn't problematic. Idk how else to say it.

Also, I've seen a lot of videos on tiktok (where i spend most my time because I love edits lol, and where I really want to post this but am a bit too anxious to do so. Maybe when I get the artbook) where the posters are showing off the video I talked about with the director, or reference it, and are just so happy to be right and hate on punkflower. Like, they were actively rooting for a reason to hate and "cancel" punkflower shippers. And jesus, it really does seem a bit homophobic. And by a bit I mean a lot. (I also noticed that people are not as upset with the chaipunk ship over there? Which idk why, pavitr is also like 15/16).

Also it pissed me off at first to see videos of people using the punkflower hashtag, and then saying it's a duo name, but now it's just kinda funny. Like they'll put the most romantic song in the background with miles and hobie's, and the caption will be "not a ship! They're bffs!" Like, c'mon man. Actually, I think you can change the caption on videos, so maybe it was intended to be a ship but they got a lot of hate (which is also a huge problem) and so they put that caption.

Speaking of hate, I've seen one creator on Twitter who talked about how much hate they got over the ship, I think even before that video came out where hobie's age was "confirmed". Like, for such an unproblematic ship, people were so upset. And just, all the people taking that cropped video at face value and not even watching the full thing to properly understand the content is a bit telling. I mean, I didn't lol, but I didn't exactly believe the video immedietly anyways.

Wow yeah this became was more of me just talking about stuff at the end, but whatever I've just been needing to say it.

you’re a proshipper, stop trying to justify yourself. “what masuda said isnt canon” okay so the creator of a series doesn’t know his own series but a random internet person does? damn okay.

masuda also said that hoenn takes place on a different planet from kanto and johto despite an npc saying they swam from one to the other in rse.

my point is that what he said directly contradicts things laid out by dialogue within bw/2 themselves.

he's also not the only person who works on the games! by masuda's own account, characters changed a ton once he handed them off to the other designers and writers. toshinobu matsumiya's estimate of 16 for the bw protags is a lot more sensible given the cultural context that comes with the games being inspired by america, with that being the age teens typically take their first steps towards adulthood via becoming eligible for a driver's license and subsequently gaining more autonomy- very much in line with how the nuvema characters are referred to and treated (especially for bianca).

the only other time masuda's age for n has been corroborated was through pash! magazine discussing n's appearance in the anime... which features the bw2 design for cheren and places n at an unknown amount of years after first meeting reshiram.

even brushing all that aside, you have to agree that n and the protag's closeness would be very very weird and inappropriate if they were 14 and 20. like, the ferris wheel encounter (which happens on a "couples only" ferris wheel, for the record) would be an adult cornering a child away from everyone, for starters? remember that the protag leaves their entire life behind to go after n, and n has quotes like "i want to tell them how i feel" referring to them.. a significant gap in age and maturity in that scenario does not sit well with me. if they were truly intended to be those ages, then i can't imagine pokemon wouldn't have been more careful with these implications and language.

finally i very much hate the ideology and desensitization proshippers contribute to and id appreciate never being associated with those scum of the earth again. thanks for stopping by

About Proshipping/Proshippers.

I know this is pretty out of place on my blog(with really nothing on it anyways but oh well) but I have a few very important things to say, because some Twitter people have begun a slow migration back here somehow

First of all. "They're just fictional" is such a weird defense like? "Oh I'm not a pedophile, I just enjoy FICTIONAL pedophilia" why do you enjoy pedophelia at all?? In any context?? Same goes for incest ships??

Second of all and this is my main point,

You are actively violating creator boundaries. "Proshipping doesn't harm anyone" yeah. It. It does. Content creators shouldn't be scared of creating characters that are minors cause y'all will ship them with literal adults. People do not want their characters in the disgusting contexts proshippers put them in. And if anyone says "well they never explicitly said they were against Proshipping" THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TOO. Nobody should have to fucking explain they don't want their characters drawn in relationships with their SIBLINGS or with people twenty years older.

"Let people enjoy what they want to enjoy and if you don't like it look away" Look. People are always going to create disgusting content of minors and put it on the internet, and you just have to avoid it. But that should be a BAD thing that those things exist! It shouldn't be someone thing people are making MORE of and enjoying! And by creating an actual market for that content that greatly increases the probability more people will see it! If you're so depraved and desperate go get off alone on whatever add riddled site you can find that will give you what you want and leave the rest of us alone if you have too. Don't try and make a fucking COMMUNITY about it.

This sort of ties in to creator boundaries. But I want to make a short note of it. As a writer who wishes to publish my work one day, proshippers are a big reason why I haven't published anything or put any of my actual content and characters on the internet. My characters for the most part are MINORS, not to mention very personal to me. It makes me extremely uncomfortable at the idea of people sexualizing them even in "normal" context, let alone shipping them with their siblings and adults. That isn't okay. You are stopping me, and probably who knows how many, creators from sharing what they love with people because you will ruin it for them.

So the next time you say "Proshipping doesn't harm anyone!!" reread this post.

That's all folks.

The Morality of Fandom Activities

This might as well be an essay, so apologies for my long asf post. Just a few heads up: this is in no way talking about people who support incest irl and MAPS. Those are extreme cases that I'm not qualified myself to talk about, I only know that I don't want them on my page 😭

I stopped having a very active social media presence when I was finishing high school. For me, this was a huge deal, because as the token weird queer kid all my life, Tumblr and fandom culture provided a safe space for self-expression, developing my writing skills and exploring myself. Fandoms usually play a huge role for teens, since their interactions and their experiences shape their mindsets into the primary form their adult brain takes. Whenever I look at my old posts, I can see the points where I was maturing, I could see my opinions change very clearly without always connecting old posts to significant life events.

What is very important to take into account is that I was in ALL the "red flag" fandoms, even some niche ones. BNHA, Homestuck, RWBY, Okegom, Voltron, you name it. I was into it, I had Instagram edits of it saved on my phone. As a result, I am familiar with all kinds of fujoshi, yuri bros, proshippers, etc. I'm not here to inform you about my entire digital footprint though. I'm here to discuss fandom morality. Fair warning, I will be referring to a bunch of dark themes vaguely.

I want to start by saying I understand the appeal of a toxic ship. A ship that is straight-up problematic given the context of the story. Be it because the characters are abusive to each other, a very big age gap or them being blood relatives - I get it, even if I'm one of the people who's easily repelled by this shit. I get why Junjou Romantica, for example, became so popular. The big body proportions, the "forbidden romance" trope, the guilty pleasure, I get it. I understand how nerdy young women would fawn over yaoi because they craved a soft male touch. I understand the south park proshippers because they inserted their younger selves into the characters and imagined scenarios where their own fucked-up childhoods would make sense.

My experience with Funamusea helped me understand that things that are taboo can be appealing in a fictional form. There were a lot of issues because the horror used in Funa's games was centered around sexual battery and assault. To me, that made perfect sense. Funa games are packed to the brim with gore, war, mental abuse, and disturbing characters. Of course, there would be SA in such a fucked up setting. Rape is a horrifying thing that no one should face because it is a subcategory of violence. VIOLENCE IS SOMETHING NO ONE SHOULD EVER COME ACROSS. Therefore, why is it that people who write stories containing this trope receive so much hate, but 1940s war aus for example get praised? Why is FMA a pacifist masterpiece and not torture porn?

For "glorifying" real-life horrors? Triggering people? Let's broaden this.

Think of your favorite slasher film. Your favorite best-seller horror book. Do you think that the people behind these stories are freaks and murderers? Psychopaths are capable of fitting in anywhere they want, even fucking churches. So it is useless to assume creators are moral instigators for their VILLAINS. Now let's think about Colleen Hoover and Sara J Maas (or as I like to call her, Sara J Ass). Their "love" stories are super popular because of the immense marketing that they have received, despite profiting off romanticized harmful content. Backlash is still minimized in contrast to anime niche, because they are backed by million-dollar industries and the fact that they conform to the norms of a straight story. Although that, is a topic for another discussion - how problematic characteristics are "musts" in irl relationships.

Lastly, I want to talk about the so-called community saviors who want to protect these platforms. Those who want to build a safe environment so that no predators infiltrate our sacred grounds where we discuss Persona 5 ABO dynamics. A lot of them are oftentimes victims of this sort of abuse. I myself have come across groomers. But tbh 15yo kids who reblog Shiro X Keith are not really the enemy? Anyway, that's a little besides the point. I want to directly talk to these people right now, hear me out: you are hypocrites. You only pretend to care about Tumblr communities but do not hesitate to accuse someone of abuse (any kind) and tell them to end their life. How are you protecting anyone like this? How are you a positive role model for the children partaking in fandom activities when you show clearly that you wish death upon someone. VIOLENCE IS SOMETHING NO ONE SHOULD EVER COME ACROSS, I re-iterate and you possibly agree, but YOU ARE STILL VIOLENT, and justify it by being "virtuous". How are you any different from @\hivliving? Her actions will forever be engraved in her victims' heads, even if she was humiliated in the end. Then again, it would have been better for her to write a shitty low-quality fic about Hamilton having HIV or whatever the fuck, if looking up basic things about HIV was so difficult. After 7 years in & out of fandoms, there's one thing I'm fine with, and that's bad fics.

Ultimately there is so much more I want to say. I might cover this topic on my bestie and I's podcast sometime (soz it's in Greek). The bottom line here though is not about keeping a neutral stance on problematic media. It is to enjoy whatever the fuck you want just because it makes you happy. It is to differentiate what's a wolf in sheep's clothing from what's a sheep. It is to accept that kids will ALWAYS lie about their age to access all sorts of NSFW. God knows I did so. It is to recognize them and realize that their creators and fans are most likely not going to act out every bad thing that occurs in said story. Because if that were the case, with the rise of all the Yeagerists, we'd have so many bitchless college students trying to start little rumblings of their own, and the world would be a much funnier place.

Now go outside and spread your moral philosophies to people outside your Discord server

So I think I'm coming to a decision and here's what I want to say:

I am choosing to be neutral. I do not want to take sides, and I don't really wanna be involved in discourse and see people say that someone should die or something. That's wayyyy too hard for me, as someone who has lost someone close to me to suicide, and has witnessed many more crack under the opinions of people who don't even know them.

More under cut.

I come from a fandom where darker topics are roleplayed all the time, but the people there agree that certain topics are yikes and do not support them irl. We agree that characters intentions, thoughts, opinions, etc. do not equal the intentions, thoughts, opinions, etc. of the roleplayer; the fandom source is dark, and it allows us to explore darker themes, angsty plots, and interesting stories. We recognize that some stuff just isn't our cup of tea so when engaging with each other we don't engage in those topics!

Additionally, I think characters and ships and narratives all rely on the source and CONTEXT they are based on.

Another example: It's like cancelling George R.R. Martin for writing about war and murder and incest and rape in Game of Thrones. These things, unfortunately, happen, and exploring them in fiction is normal for a lot of writers and they are still able to admit that these actions irl are wrong. And yet Martin is not cancelled. People who are not comfortable with these topics don't watch the show nor read the books. People who do engage with the media make ocs and ships with murder and darker themes as it is within the realm of belief for the source. It does not mean that they, nor Martin, support rape or murder or incest.

This. This is what I'm understanding of Proship at the very least. I do not know enough about comship as it is a new label that I'm not as familiar with and I am still struggling to understand it. I think it is VERY important to be critical about the media you consume, to question themes and the creators is healthy, but I do just as genuinely believe that people can explore darker themes without actually endorsing it irl. THAT is the most important thing to me. If someone is prancing around saying they whole heartedly wanna do things to children... that is a completely different story. That is not even in the realm of shipping. Those are the people to watch out for.

Think about the memes about this, too. The "i could fix him" and "i could make him worse" memes. That's toxic idealization, but put in a way that is humorous and something a lot of people can chalk their very own ship dynamics up to. I don't see people sending death threats over that.

Which means it's all about context and intent. Not all proshippers agree with various dark themes, and from what I've had explained to me and from what I've seen it is generally just letting people explore fiction the way they want to. Sometimes it's a way to cope. Sometimes it's to create a story. Sometimes it's just to have fun.

If you're reading this and choose to disagree, that's your decision and it will be respected. People are allowed to agree to disagree over something as simple as fiction. Feel free to block me.

This said, here are my boundaries, I would like for them to be respected if we have a conversation/talk about ships.

-I do not support incest irl and would prefer not to engage with romantic incest ships. I will block if this is disrespected.

-I do not support pedophilia and would prefer not to engage with adult/minor age gap romantic ships. I do not mind ships with age gaps as long as a MINOR is NOT involved. I will block if this is disrespected.

-I do not support rape irl. I do not support unhealthy relationships where sex is more important than the emotional well-being of the partner. I do not support situations where 'no' is not respected. I do not support non-consensual actions between individuals. I do not mind it as a detail of narrative, I do not mind it as being part of a character's/oc's/insert's back story. But if there are heavy themes of active noncon in a ship then I do not want to engage. I will block if this is disrespected.

-I would like to get to know the actual human person I'm talking to before judgement is made over the little things.

-However, fascists, racists, pedophiles/MAPs, terfs, anti-lgbt, antishippers/anyone who actively harasses anyone for differences or brings harm to others ARE NOT welcomed here. If you identify as these or with the ideologies of these identities then please do not engage with me. These are not little things. That's a person's life.

Thank you for reading, regardless of your stance on the subject of pro/neutral/antishippers. I hope you have a nice day whoever you are.

Some persons asked: What constitutes a threat against other AO3 users? Are tags that exclude other AO3 readers/users allowed to be placed on a work? If an author includes a tag such as “x-shipper should die”, is that a reportable offense? What if they write that in their author’s notes?

I am going to start off by saying today is April 24, 2022. The further from this date you read this post, the more likely some of it may be out of date. I just wanted to get that out of the way since harassment is one of those places where people unfortunately get very creative so PAC has to adapt to account for that.

Again, this isn't all of our policies since I'm trying to keep things simple.

In general, DNI (do not interact) tags that just say 'X/Y shippers don't look at this fic' or 'X/Y don't interact' or 'X/Y go away' are allowed. Basically, tags that do not wish harm to other users and aren't insulting are still permitted. I do want to say though that if you're a creator who's tagged a work with an "X/Y shippers DNI" tag and you discover that someone who commented on your work happens to be an X/Y shipper, that in and of itself is not harassment.

As I mentioned earlier, policies can change. As people find new ways to harass each other, PAC's standards for what is harassment have to change to account for that. For DNI tags specifically, as well as just in general, we've shifted towards considering more kinds of things harassment than we used to.

When DNI tags become harassment is:

if they're insults directed at other AO3 users ('DNI proshippers you fucking freaks')

if they threaten violence toward other AO3 users ('X/Y shippers dni if you read this I'll break your legs')

if they wish harm on other AO3 users ('dni x/y i hope you go to jail')

any kind of suicide bait or doxxing/rape/death threats

DNIs and other tags like the above create a hostile environment. That's one of the ways we determine if something should be considered harassment.

Another factor we consider is context like the location of the harassment. Tags and summaries can be seen by everyone browsing for new works to read. Comments get emailed to the creator of the work. There's a lot of factors to consider.

But whether the material is in an author's note or a comment as opposed to a tag does not disqualify it from being harassment. Wishing harm on other users or threatening people is never okay. 'Shippers should die' would be considered harassment in an author's note as much as it would in a tag.

Someone else asked: Is a tag that contains threats something that can or should be reported? How would a report regarding tags such as these be handled?

You can report violent DNIs or other harassing language regardless of whether it's in the tags, notes, comments, etc. For tags and author's notes, link to the work and quote the harassing phrase in the report description. Also give us the username of the creator.

If you're reporting comments, you should link to the comment, not the work. We don't want to have to try and search through hundreds of comments. You can get the link to a comment by clicking the "Thread" button on that comment. Then you can copy the URL, or just click on the "Policy Questions & Abuse Reports" form – the comment link will be filled in for you. If you're reporting multiple comments by the same user, you can add more comment links in the body of the report.

Reports for harassing tags and such would be handled like any other report. I've outlined the overall process in an earlier post: https://ao3commentoftheday.tumblr.com/post/682170617127190528

The TL:DR though is we'd investigate and determine if the content was harassing and if so we'd ask the creator to remove it.

I should mention if you're reporting comments where you suspect a person is harassing someone else, it's possible PAC won't take any action. If they're light insults, we might not act on them unless we get a report from the creator or whoever's part of the conversation. This is because we often need that firsthand perspective to provide additional context. We will always act on severe harassment (like threats of violence) no matter who reports it, though.

— guest mod tealight

The form is now closed. I'm just working through submissions.

Disclaimer: I am speaking for myself and not behalf of AO3 or PAC. While I can answer general questions, I cannot tell you if a specific work or user is breaking the rules. If you want to file a report or otherwise need an official PAC response, you can find PAC's contact form by clicking on the "Policy Questions & Abuse Reports" link on any AO3 page.

Fictional characters do not groom people. Fictional content is not made for the express purpose of grooming people. If you see art of a ‘problematic’ ship between two fictional characters on your dashboard or in your feed, you aren’t being groomed. Fiction is not the cause of grooming - that’s a fact that I’m sure many antis are going to be quite displeased with me saying.

People groom people. That’s the way it has been and always will be. Now, I’m not trying to say that predators don’t sometimes use fictional content ( such as art, fanfictions, things like that ) to groom their victims - I’m just trying to say that fiction in itself is not going to groom anyone. If you were to use that logic, then you really couldn’t watch fictional movies. You couldn’t read fictional novels or fanfictions - nothing like that. You couldn’t watch basically 95% of things on television. Because if you do any of that, then you would be allowing yourself to be groomed by fiction.

Do you see how stupid that sounds?

Some people on here really like to act as though any time they see something that they don’t like on their feed ( usually some sort of fictional content like art or people talking about they ships they like ), they’re being groomed and that the person that posted whatever they’re seeing is instantly a predator. That is not grooming. Seeing content that you don’t enjoy does not mean that you are being groomed. I’m sick and tired of seeing antis throw around words that they don’t even know the true meaning of. How they accuse literally everyone that they don’t personally like ( mainly proshippers ) of being predators and of grooming children all for the fact that they so much as have “proship” in their bio. It’s wrong, it’s harmful, and false accusations like that can fuck someone up for life in certain cases.

This is coming from someone that was often accused of grooming because of the fact that on Twitter I would openly post about the ships I liked. From someone who has been doxxed over being a proshipper because apparently that makes me a “threat to minors”. From someone who has been nonstop harassed and sent death threats nearly every day of my life for the past two years straight. From someone that was literally reported to the police ( granted the cops didn’t do anything because of how bullshit the report was, but it still happened ) because I was called a predator for being proship. Trust me when I say I know how much these false allegations and accusations can harm someone on the internet.

There are disgusting people in this world - actual predators that seek out children and will groom them for their own sick desires and such. Proshippers are not inherently those people. Content creators are not inherently those people. Just because someone may draw art of ‘problematic’ ships or fictional content, that doesn’t make them a predator.

Stop accusing innocent people of being groomers and predators. Don’t throw around words that you don’t know the actual meaning of. And for the love of god, stop acting like death threats and harassment are justifiable in any context.

If you use terms like "proshippers don't interact", I'm going to be wary of you and what that concept means to you. While I believe it's okay to find certain ships offensive and concerning and to openly talk about those feelings, I would never personally identify myself with the "anti" movement enough to use those kinds of terms unironically, because of how deeply toxic, fear mongering, and sex-negative I find that culture. I don't surround myself with anything that has even the hint of christian fundamentalism, even if it's been repackaged on the surface as progressive.

Here's why:

My main OTP involves a BDSM-themed torture demon from hell and a final girl protagonist. I ship Pinhead from Hellraiser with Kirsty Cotton. I have never seen an anti actually engage with and ask a shipper with a "scary" ship like mine why and how they ship, or what their perspectives are on the nature of their ship. Pinsty is a ship that is easily distressing at face value, because someone on the outside has no idea about the complex context of it's shippers.

In my experience, these types of people do not actually care to talk to people in good faith at all, but distant, disconnected reactionary behavior is always a major priority.

I'm a longtime Labyrinth fangirl (I've been around since geosites was still a thing), and I ship an adult Sarah with Jareth the Goblin King. I'm still very angry and hurt about the deeply ignorant way people have spoken to me and others about this film. I have never met one of those people who has ever engaged directly with the fandom about the film's true deeper meanings (which we have actual information directly from the creators to refer to), what it means to the women who loved it, and what the ship means to them.

Virtually all of my ships are some variation on this particular theme. I like to engage with romantic storytelling that involves some dark themes, like villain/heroine, enemies to lovers, the potential screwy power dynamics within that vein, etc. And yes, I consider many of these types of stories inherently feminist. I strongly prefer my feminist art with some actual bite to it, and for that I have often experienced and/or witnessed disrespect from people who do not understand why.

I have a few other ships with an age difference between consenting adults. I've witnessed some real fandom bullshit over that.

I am unashamedly pro-kink.

The majority of the characters I "stan" are monsters and villains. The majority of my friends have their own faves of this type. Many of them have been targeted by wierd purity culture rage campaigns.

More than once, I have either been personally thrown under the bus or seen my friends/members of my fandom spaces be thrown under the bus, treated on par with the very worst types of people in fandom. I and others in my spaces have been called atrocious things for the great sin of shipping consenting adult characters who aren't involved in any type of real-world-esque abuse situation, and most especially for daring to openly talk about the toxicity of purity culture in relation to our spaces, and name that toxicity for what it is.

So if any of the new people deciding to follow my blog after the DbD influx are a part of that, be very aware that I don't trust that mindset. I'm not gonna block anybody for this alone, and I will assume you come here in good faith, but I have may boundaries, and if you choose to engage with me and my content, do so with respect.

I agree with your post about free speech absolutism versus puritanism. I also don't like how some of the people who oppose creepy shit in fiction resort to harassment, and how they go after independent fan creators instead of, I dunno, Woody Allen or big porn moguls.

...Well, on the latter point; I hate to say “It’s more complicated than that,” but I say it not to shut things down but to pose the question “How do we fix this?”

And I say that because; you know those posts about how Tumblr’s lack of moderation lead to users having to act as de-facto moderators and getting blamed for it?

Yeah, same situation here, in all these communities.

The lack of systems meant to take down predators; and the complicity in shared social spaces; means there’s basically only vigilantism as an option; and all the ugliness that comes with vigilantism with no paradigm to draw from (Which is what I was mad about in that other post)

This may be antecdotal, but I have seen there are so many fucking people who’ve been traumatized by toxic fandom spaces with prominent predators hiding in plain sight, and the fact that the proshipper movement actively keeps us from interrogating what creates the culture where this keeps happening is downright monstrous.

And, not to accuse you of anything but, the idea that there are “bigger fish to fry” so therefore we shouldn’t focus on these matters is hard to take as anything but a distraction, because it displaces our ability to solve problems from our communities to vague larger targets we are essentially impotent against. I believe the typical term for it is “Whataboutism”

Communities are important to people and small enough that one person can recruit others and make a difference, so it’d make sense they’d start there for change because they’re more likely to have an impact; even if there is something to be said for the post-’08-crash larger-context material issues (IE, the fear of shunning = starvation in the face of a viewing audience often too poor to pay) that hang over this regarding artists vs community activism.

If we’re to acknowledge the issue of harassment, we should first acknowledge a system that places people in a spot where they have no other options for going against malfeasance/agitating for change, and actually talk about what the fuck to do there.

If you’re in a place where a bunch of people try to bite your head up if you mildly suggest, “Hey, maybe it’s messed up that a fandom that’s so heavily composed of minors is so openly horny in a way that allows adult fans to be really creepy,” you quickly lose confidence in direct dialogue.

And as much as I protest the abdication by the cultivation theory side of any means of putting its ideas into action that aren’t panopticonic hell-nightmares, I also am disgusted by the way any attempts to address the normalization of awful shit in communities are met with flat-out denial of any dialogue or societal effects whatsoever.

TL/DR, Even within the context of broader issues; community activism is important on the net; and the problems with the roadblocking of solutions goes for both sides in a way that encourages cruel vigilante justice in this vacuum.