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bylrlve · 1 day

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Warning! Potential Spoilers for Stranger Things 5!

A compilation of recent tweets made by Alex and others about the mileven ‘making out in a field’ leak. Alex is insisting that this scene is separate from the sequence involving them talking on the rooftop, the scene which was leaked as a video back in January. According to 011scenes this scene happens ‘at the beginning’ aka in episode one.

The issue? Alex’s sources are people who speak to paps (which she lied about in answering a cc question; either that or she’s clueless), and who deliberately feed her inconsequential things production dgaf abiut because it distracts from the juicy shit e.g., what Mike and Will are doing. She was told ‘Robin and Will have a scene’ and that morphed into ‘Will is in his unrequited mopey Steve era, Jonathan and Robin don’t share scenes’, etc. The source said nothing about Byler being finished or about passionate makeouts.

I’m suspicious of the second anon’s claim about Finn, as Noah is straight-up went on TikTok live right before filming commenced in January to read out byler endgame and Byler kiss comments lmao. The bit about the love triangle being kept under wraps seems accurate enough - they’re openly passing out scraps of mileven to leakers to pass onto Alex, and it’s pretty clear they didn’t care about that mileven video hitting national news website in the Uk (daily mail). Byler? On lockdown. The only thing we know is the hospital stuff and that’s due to specific leakers, and even then it’s not that much. It is clearly a big question going into s5 for the GA, so it being kept tightly guarded is unsurprising.

The context of the kiss will be interesting, regardless of if it’s pro-mileven or somehow anti-. Alex indicates that it’s only them present in the field - BUT she’s also said that she outright leaves Will out of ‘leaks’ and gave the example of Max, Lucas, and Will having a scene but her only reporting Lumax having a scene, so… S4 mileven was a concerted effort to show that the characters had matured from s3, and that their fight was more serious. They only kissed once, and that briefly, and were… unaffectionate at the end of the season, to say the very least. The reversion to kissing in broad daylight, in an apocalyptic setting when El will be mostly hiding with Hopper from the military, feels a little out of character - and will certainly be jarring tonally and thematically.

Alex received this dm ^ back in February (discussed in my first leak post), which stated that hopper is annoyed by mike’s continuing presence around el. I and many others (including Alex iirc) dismissed it, as Hopper and Mike are on good terms at the end of s4. If Mike and El are still doing reckless things in s4, and if the old pattern of isolating El from others just to kiss re-emerges, though… The veracity of this is very shaky: the time skip occurs gradually over episode one, not in between episodes 1 and 2.

It’s important to note that many leaks are undoubtedly missing context. Just today, Alex brought up how she was right about Mike ignoring Will at the airport, about their fight, and about the airport kiss. Yes, she was, but she lacked the tonal subtext of the scene itself, which portrayed Mike’s behaviour as inexplicably phony - and of course, she lacked the lynchpin of this plot, which is that Will is in romantic love with Mike. She completely missed that, and it meant she missed every important aspect of this plotline.

Byrhop, a highly reliable st acc who’s closely following filming, was able to ascertain that Vickie is at the farm.

Lastly, I want to go over everything I know to try and map a trajectory. The Byers are living in the radio station before it’s overrun by military and they flee to the Turnbow farm - I personally am not sure of when exactly this occurs. There is a leaked hospital file showing that Karen Wheeler is attacked by a demogorgan. The file is dated as 1/1987 but it could be a prop error, as I’ve seen claims that she’s attacked when Holly is taken..

As we know, according to the leaked episode 2 title, Holly Wheeler goes missing. This likely occurs at the end of episode one, but the chronology is unclear. Karen being attacked could happen here, and I’ve seen claims that it happens in episode 2. Mike and El kiss in episode one, and as I’ve said this has been overblown greatly by Alex. The chronology of this is also unclear. At some point in episode one, Mike and Dustin are at the high school and interact with the jocks. Mike is wearing the same outfit he wears on the rooftop - dark trousers, blue and black shirt with a yellow collar, etc. As this is what he wore in the official pic released by Ross of him in his room, I am speculating that this is the first outfit he wears in the story proper, after the last time jump to November 1987, and that he may wear it throughout episode 2 as well

In episode 2, Mike, Nancy, and Karen have a plotline at the hospital. From official BTS pics, we know Robin and Vickie are there as well. The above anon does not mention Mike being injured, and its description of Karen’s mindset does not tally either with her having being attacked by a demogorgan prior or with Holly being abducted. It’s likely that they have partially but not totally accurate information; or else it’s a point in favour of Holly being taken and Karen being attacked after this happens, at the end of episode 2. I have confirmation that Mike is injured in episode 2, as are several other people - I discussed this in a post a few days ago - please discount the forehead kiss anon section of that post. This was confirmed by an extra who played a nurse on the scheme and by a different source later. The second source confirms that Will shows up last, and is crying and blaming himself for what happened. - I also have confirmation that El doesn’t show up to the hospital at all. The nurse extra also confirmed that Mike and Will ‘share scenes’ although he was not present for those so can’t speak as to what happened in them - I don’t have an image of that text so didn’t include it yesterday.

The forehead kiss anon is definitely not real (check @will80sbyers) but the rest seems to be.

Lastly, Atlanta-filming insinuates that the m*leven rooftop scene occurs after the hospital subplot. It’s unknown how they came to this conclusion.

To summarise: m*leven kiss in episode one, potentially during one of the staggered time jumps (my speculation) and the short rooftop conversation between them likely in either episode one or two immediately before something involving Hopper and Joyce occurs down in the field that alarms El. I’ve seen conflicting into on when Holly is abducted - either episode one or episode two. In episode 2 Mike, Karen, and Nancy go to the hospital for plot reasons. If this occurs after Holly goes missing, it is likely to be related to that. I am speculating that Holly vanishing, whenever it happens, accelerates the byler plotline, as Mike will more-than-likely seek out Will for advice, reassurance, information. In episode 2, Mike gets injured somehow at the hospital, along with several other people in a small-scale mass-casualty event, and ends up being admitted to the hospital. As I’ve said, it seems to be rock-solid that Will arrives and is crying and blaming himself for what happened, and Will stays with him but El is nowhere to be found in this plotline. We know from BTS pics that Robin and vickie are also there, and I’ve seen claims that Jonathan shows up to be with Nancy, but have no proof or knowledge of the providence of such claims, so… take that for what it is. It is pretty certain, as far as I know, that El is not there.

One possibility is that Will is possessed at least temporarily in 501-2. Perhaps there’s another superspy, ‘it’s a trap’ situation? Will Byers would never be reckless with the safety of Mike Wheeler or his family… but I bet Vecna and the mindflayer are just itching to attack the one salvation standing between them and Will. Something to muse on.

The timing of the rooftop scene is very important. El not showing up at the hospital is unlikely to happen after it. The scene is very clearly about affirming their relationship- whether as lovers or as friends. It’s likely that she’s distracted by Max, who is her main plot, but this is a narrative. El not being present for Mike, while Will is there and crying and staying by his side? That is telling of a potential rift that opens up in their relationship between episode one and two. There is a pattern of problems arising in their relationship in episode twos. In s2 El reached out to Mike during his call but he walked away while an ominous stinger played. In s3 they broke up at the end of episode 2. In s4 they had their disastrous roller rink date.

A few days ago, I gif’d the rooftop scene, and speculated that they’re discussing being friends, and that El apologises for not being there and Mike says ‘No. You should have been.’ before basically saying that he’s okay because Will was and “you’re all friends to me.” The ending of s4, to me, potentially marks a shift in Mike’s attitude to El, as much as it does for hers to him. In the hospital she seeks him out by resting a head on his shoulder, and she did speak briefly with him prior about Brenner, but he offers her no comfort beyond a stiff arm around her. When they arrive at the cabin, he walks in with the other boys instead of staying with her - as shes’s clearly very nervous and emotional about reentering the cabin. Finally, as we have all observed, she directs an almost angry look at Will and Mike before stomping into her room and slamming the door - a parallel to s3 after the phone call with Mike where she knew he was lying. When it pans back to Mike, and Will asks if they’ve talked? He rolls his eyes. Unlike in 403, he does not seek her out and push through her self-isolation. He leaves her be. This, coming from Mike the Paladin, suggests that he’s kind of done with trying.

El’s attitude has been convincingly dismissed by M*levens as simple grief over Max causing her to retreat as she always does. It is bizarre, however, that the monologue did nothing at all to make her feel she could rely on Mike, and much more so that he’s very apathetic.

I posit that they might, maybe, fall into old habits of passivity and inertia and string the relationship along over the time jump. Perhaps the kiss is from one of the interim jumps between March 1986 and November 1987? I could see El having too much on her plate to really address it, and feeling that she doesn’t want to push him away - after all, he did give the big damn speech. The kiss could be a parallel to Boyce and Stancy. If that Hopper leak is accurate (doubtful), perhaps they fall back into habits of clinginess and immaturity while still being deeply unhappy. Nurse extra stated that Mike is no longer trying to be normal, and that he’s discovering himself, being himself again, and being the support he once was - the wording rather implies that it means being the support to Will.

Of course, I could be wrong, and it could be that they’re doing very well, and that the kiss is indeed as happy and loving as Alex paints it out to be… but I am skeptical bc of the hospital, and because of El the brave protector not rushing to her boyfriend’s side. It’s simply too early to say. If my musing on whether Will was possessed and effectively set Mike up (against his will ofc) is correct, and if my lip-reading is correct, Mike speaking affectionately of Will here could be due to the fact that he’s intimately witnessed Will being possessed, and he knows Will would never do something like that on purpose.

Finally, definitely worth noting that there have been no signs of any NPC love interests. Will’s storylines are being protected well from leakers, so people could be missing something, but there has been no indication of it. What we are getting, though, is a focus on Will’s love of Mike, and his selfless devotion.

All of this is incredibly shaky, and I’m interested to hear your guys’ opinions on alternate sequences of events. Whatever the truth, clearly m*leven is inconsequential to the production, as it’s being deliberately leaked to distract from the real juicy stuff.

Oh, and I just want to wrap up by mentioning this bit of idiocy. Someone in Alex’s inbox sincerely thought that the production actually kills fields they want to look dead-looking, rather than editing it. And Alex agreed.

#byler #stranger things 5 leaks #stranger things 5 spoilers #st5 leaks #st5 spoilers

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spacingoutforever · 18 hours

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PLOT THEORY FOR S2 - Fallout

**MANY FALLOUT SPOILERS AHEAD - read at your own risk**

i have this weird theory that the juxtaposition we see between Cooper's outwardly grim appearance vs his morals being intact, and then Max's outwardly normal appearance vs his morally neutral choices, might be a way of telling us more about looks being deceiving for future developments.

hear me out.

Max is knocked out as soon as he finds out about Shady Sands, but he was definitely intending to do some damage, revenge had its hooks in him from the beginning. it was always there, whether it be to regain the honor the Brotherhood took away from him, then evolving into being part of the trio that was now after Hank. the man who robbed him of his home, family and hope for the future.

i saw a video essay discussing the moral choices of Lucy and Cooper's characters and i really liked the criteria they created for measuring it - ill link it below.

she says there's 2 main parts:

1. loss of control

2. being unrecognizable after enduring hardship

whether you agree with this criteria or think there's more to be added, i like how simple of a base it provides, when approaching these complex characters.

so if we then apply this to Max, he is the only member of our main cast who exhibits both points.

1. loss of control:

this is distinct to me in the Philly shoot-up, where he isn't able to control the T-60 power armor enough to put up a fair fight against The Ghoul. literally crash-lands it and then gets flung into the atmosphere LIKE PLS

he mistakenly attacks the people of Vault 4, once again losing control of his power.

the chicken-guy .... trying to derail that argument but saving the wrong person ><

Note: it's FASCINATING if you look at his character metaphorically, because the power armor is someone having the means for good but not having the understanding of what true 'good' means to them, yet. the power armor is LITERALLY his OUTWARD POWER like who is he really, underneath it??!!!!

we don't have this problem with Cooper and Lucy right now, their power is shown to be INWARD. the Ghoul's experience/connection to the beginning, and hers is her obvious moral strength and perseverance. they overlap.

i feel that his character is supposed to lean into the apprentice archetype, where he is currently lacking a proper teacher to show him the ropes. at first we expected Lucy to fit this role because of her inexperience on the surface, and yet when given a 'mentor' she not only challenges him but proves she can handle herself. ruling that one out, and leading us to believe the fate-intertwined aspect of ghoulcy has a touch more to it. implicit rather than explicit.

2. being unrecognizable after enduring hardship

Max to me fits this point too, because we still don't get a glimpse into who he truly is, besides knowing his past. from the beginning, his goal is to be a Knight of the Brotherhood, that's how he defines himself currently.

when he fights off the gulper, he reiterates this line to himself: "i am a Knight of the Brotherhood of Steel".

he says it AGAIN in response to Lucy's advances in the vault. which is a clue into how much he relies on it for his moral code, to the point where it crosses into his personal decisions. not just for 'missions' or survival.

this is like foreshadowing a tipping point for me, because without the Brotherhood, what does he want? he's acting in alignment of the code that was pushed on him, but it always feels like he has to remind himself to BE that.

that it doesn't come naturally, the way the other characters' do. we see this at the start where he gets the answer wrong in class, he's bullied, an 'outcast' within his own community (for lack of a better term).

by comparison, the Ghoul isn't even a real 'outcast' in the way cowboys are stereotypically portrayed, because he fits in the wasteland better than anyone.

so point 2. becomes relevant when he gets the armor and is unrecognizable from where he started. this is a point he never thought he'd get to, but he sacrifices his real identity to get there.

SO ALL THIS TO SAYYYY...... that's where i feel his character will be vulnerable to a villain-arc!

in the ending, he gets accepted as a Knight, but his expression betrays him. there is a continuous inner conflict within Maximus that is SO SUBTLE and its written so beautifully. i think we're going to see ghoulcy pushing each other in the right direction. their shared journey seems to be about regaining HOPE.

but for Max, i feel in my bones that something darker is coming for his arc, it feels like revenge. the goofy, lovable boy in the clunky armor, may very well end up having the darkest battle to face. and it's because he's alone in doing it.

this was a lot to digest, so if you made it this far i thank you from the bottom of my heart!!!!!!!

AND if you have anything to add i would love to hear it :) !!!!

youtube

#fallout prime #the ghoul #ghoulcy #cooper howard #lucy maclean #maximus #fallout theory #spoilers #fallout spoilers #vaultghoul #Youtube

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tea0w0stache · 1 day

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would it physically fucking ail you to treat women well in your au? You’ve literally swapped all the female leaders with some background male characters. Literally ALL of the girls characters except maybe poppy (and that’s a stretch) have stories revolve around a man. Anytime you mention viva it’s always as an extension of clay. You took her leader role away and gave her nothing. I get you like brozone and shit, but you didn’t have to make every single female leader in trolls not a leader. Barb was an independent character that made her own decisions based own her own thoughts and beliefs, and you delegated her to a supporting role for riff. The same goes for delta! It’s not like there wasn’t other female characters to swap them with. Clampers, Carol, Val, and Holly are right there! Does the idea of a woman having her own complex internal life scare you? Is that why you’ve reduced all of them to sidekick status? I don’t know but I’m blocking you after this. What the hell

hey first off, what the actual fuck is your problem.

brotherhood started as a goddamn PERSONALITY SWAP AU. we didn't swap characters with anyone from the shows.

secondly; you DO realize that we aren't portraying them as side kicks right? or is your media literacy that fucking low?

barb isn't a support to riff. of you actually paid attention and asked actual questions you can see that she's not happy about anything riff is doing. she's not a support. she is the prime example as to why what riff is doing? ISNT A FUCKING GOOD THING. HE ISNT LISTENING TO ANYONE AND IT TAKES BARB GETTING HURT AND HER SCREAMING AT HIM FOR HIM TO REALIZE WHAT HE WAS DOING IS WRONG.

delta swapping with pete was the idea of a friend; and even then, she's not a fucking support. we talk about delta more than pete and she actively helps the trio out.

viva is STILL A FUCKING LEADER. NOWHERE DID WE SAY HER ROLE WAS REMOVED; HER AND CLAY LEAD TOGETHER.

i am so sick and tired of you people on your high horses trying to attack me because you can't get the balls to sit down and either ask questions OR be patient for the google doc that i have spent 5 FUCKING MONTHS WORKING ON.

quit making baseless assumptions because you don't know how to read.

i don't care if you block me. if you have the gall to be disrespectful and downright RUDE on anon like a damn coward then i don't want you around anyway. good riddance.

ket can keep posting the art they have on tumblr but im done. you want brotherhood stuff? go to them. im sick and tired of assholes like you. stfu and get a life

#tea rambles #brotherhood au #hate anon

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1800naveen · 2 days

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The white people of the ACOTAR fandom are odd. Like no offense to the ones that are chill but others need to chill. Those who think Feyre is in the right to fuck up the Spring Court are just ew. Imagine if someone destroyed your country with the idea of revenge in mind, multiple homes get destroyed in the process because war is on the horizon. You have to flee into other Courts so you can be safe and leave your original home behind, not knowing if you will ever come back because of what that person did. Sounds familiar?

What makes this even worse is that SJM is a zionist and what Israel is doing to Palestine is what Feyre did to the Spring Court. She can write her ideologies into her books and people can act like it's fine when it's not!

I'm a person of color, a black woman. Imagine how some black readers found out how A Court of Silver Flames was promoted. If you aren't aware, Sarah took the death of Breonna Taylor, a 26 year old African American woman who was fatally shot by a cop. It's STILL on her Instagram page, just keep scrolling until you find it.

BITCH YOU COULD'VE MAKE ANOTHER POST, ADDRESSING IT BUT NO. I LOVE NESTA BUT BROTHER UGH. The vibe of it is nice but...

The black community is always targeted when it comes to police brutality. This is one of the traumas in our community that we have to deal with, even in modern times where everyone is supposed to be "free". Have we not struggled enough?

It disgusts me that some authors (mainly white authors) will take the pain of a community and use it for their book(s). Or authors that can write a book with a character that will rise up to fight back against the oppressors and still support Israel.

Illyrians in ACOTAR are portrayed as violent, savages, and warmongers. They're apparently supposed to be POC codded, are you fucking kidding me? Is this supposed to be a diss towards brown and black people? Maybe even the indigenous? Feyre wears Illyrian wings like bitch, wear another type of wings. Her or Rhysand haven't done shit for Illyria and while the woman gets their wings clipped, Feyre can fly all she wants.

Imagine how Emerie will feel when she finds out.

Don't get me started on Feyre's hand tattoos. It might just be me but why is this white girl wearing that? Take that off bro. In this world, it's called Mehndi, the traditional art of painting your hands, feet, or the body with paste. In Arabic, what we call it is Henna. It's used in the Middle East, South Asia, and Africa. Like the designs are pretty but I don't want to see the human born, turned fae wearing it. TAKE IT OFF, WHITE GIRL. And another thing, why was Feyre acting like that towards the humans in ACOFAS? You forget where you came from, girlie pop but anyways.

Kendrick Lamar's song Euphoria is me towards the ACOTAR series and SJM. Sarah looks like a nice lady but she's fake as hell.

If you want to read SJM's books, try buying it from a used bookstore or somewhere online that doesn't connect to her. You can download PDFs or read them online.

It's crazy when I see a black person reading her books. On Tik Tok, I saw Jordan Fisher talking about how he's a fan like babes. I love him but...

Me when SJM fans (especially the black fans:

#anti sjm #sjm critical #anti feyre #anti acotar

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sanstropfremir · 1 year

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I remember when you once said when explaining your thoughts on sm as an institution and using aespa as an example that there were around 4 steps or criteria. And I think I'm actually seeing it 👀 with aespa I'm starting to see them show their personalities more which makes me think of minho from shinee saying in his first year he was supposed to look cold and not really speak.

Also this is still related to the idea of a persona but I think that's another reason I got kinda meh about bt*. Bc I watched rm's mv and I felt more for the featured artist's vocals than him. This pushing of authenticity is nice and certainly welcome but it can feel dull and ironically not authentic anymore instead feeling more corporate or forced. I would talk about how bt* and bighit's authentic "concept" takes advantage of the already dangerous para social relationship between fans and idols but that'll be an essay so i won't lol

i'm not gonna say that my theorized lil step system was right bc we're never going to actually know, but it always takes a bit of time for rookies to get a feel for how the industry works post debut and where the personal and professional lines of how much they want to portray. so now that they've been out and around the block doing stuff, it makes sense that they're getting more comfortable. it's more of an experience thing than anything else.

not to harp again on the general principle but the more money used to make something, the less 'authentic' it feels. because the finer the polish you put on something, the less like the real world it looks, and the less 'relatable' it is. and it also makes it very hard to build a signature style, unless you're doing something that has a strong aesthetic. like the sort of soft indie type aesthetic that rm is trying to do with that mv just point blank doesn't work when you have that much money. the reason that that indie aesthetic works is because it's shot on shitty cameras with $12 and a paperclip, not on a red camera with vfx budget. when you're trying to go that low key with aesthetics, you have to be able to show the flaws in what you're doing, because there's nothing else to visually help you establish that style. nothing about that mv looks real, and you need it to look real to the viewer if you want it to come across as authentic. the quality of production that hybe CAN do is better suited for large scale spectacles that can back a really strong and distinctive aesthetic that needs that kind of money to pull off in the first place. and not to pit groupmates against each other but i will anyways bc it's funny, but jhope has a SIGNIFICANTLY better understanding of that.

#also WOW that vocalist has a crazy voice like???? damn nobody is gonna stand up to that sorry bud #oh dont worry i've already hit on their fucked up parasocial fan thing in those big asks i did like a year ago #they have like a special kind of hell parasocial relationship its really something #kpop questions #875 #aespa w #actually i literally just saw this principle in action at a friend's show today #she did a residency that had a bunch of funding behind it and felt like it stripped the gritty nature of her work #and what she was trying to portray out of it #normally you don't really see that when you're at the sad starving artist level like us so it was really weird to see #important to clarify here that money =/= corporate #you can polish the edges off something enough to strip it of life but not make it 'corporate' looking #and you need to have a REALLY strong sense of what you're doing in order to maintain a visual identity through that #and well. not everyone is skilled enough to do that #see above #text #answers #things that have the 'indie' look have that look mostly bc of technological and material limitations. not because of ideas #if he wanted that mv to actually look good they should have shot it on a cellphone from 2015 and cut all that vfx nonsense #like wtf was that drone fireworks shot?? who wants to see that???

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fromtheseventhhell · 9 months

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Do you ever think about how Arya being left-handed most likely had an impact on her needlework and other tasks? And how she needed special attention not only because she wasn't as naturally gifted as her sister but because the way she was being taught fundamentally didn't work for her? And how instead of being given the attention she needed she was instead held to an unfair standard by her teacher and used as a measure for bad behavior? And how this all impacted her self-esteem and her views on being a Lady?

#arya stark #septa mordane #catelyn stark #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #I think about this all the normal amount I'm definitely not obsessed with Arya and her internal conflict on being a lady #I'm not saying her being left-handed is the sole reason she was bad at those tasks but I do think it had an impact #that's why it gets pointed out by Syrio and how it will impact her swordplay...it has an impact on the way she does things #Arya not being able to fit in kills me because she genuinely tried to be the Lady that her family wanted #she was literally trying her best to do tasks that didn't come naturally and she was constantly told she wasn't good enough #if her family hadn't forced the issue and been so hard on her it would've been so much easier for her to do what was expected of her #it's just so fascinating and one of my favorite internal conflicts...I can't wait to see the resolution #so many people try and make Arya the problem but she was literally 9 years old #and her behavior in canon isn't the disruptive wild child people portray her to be she was doing her best that just wasn't enough for some #she was frustrated because her work wasn't as good as her sisters and her teacher mother and sister made sure she knew it #of course that's going to impact her views self-esteem and behavior #like no she was not a burden that her /poor/ mother and teacher suffered through lol

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milliesnotes · 1 month

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I think some of y'all need to realize that Ellie is a bad person and it's okay to still like her despite it lmao

#disventure camp #what is w all the Ellie lovers that're like NO SHES JUST DOING THIS FOR THE GAME SHES NOT A VILLIAN EVERYBODY KEEPS MAKING HER OUT TO BE ON #like girl she is in the villain alliance...she is a bad guy...#also just cause she's doing all this stuff to win doesn't mean it's not bad fgdhgfdh #like just because you want to win doesn't mean it justifies treating people like shit #idk my problem isnt even w how Ellie is written and portrayed in the show its her weird ass fans that try to baby her #like guys she's a bad person its okay if you still like her she is a villain

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butterflydm · 2 years

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mat and tuon (amol spoilers)

Since I’m about to go into The Book That Introduces Tuon, I kinda wanna set out why I (when first reading the series) could never enjoy Mat & Tuon as a pairing and also set up some things that I’m going to try to look out for to see if maybe I see anything more appealing in it as a romance this time around (and, of course, this is all imo and not me trying to tell other people not to ship them, etc).

And, of course, this reread has transformed other aspects of my feelings about the series, so I will... keep everyone updated as I go and let y’all know if my feelings about this change too, lol.

Though I’m putting this in my reread tag because it applies to how I’m approaching my reread, this does have spoilers all the way through the final book, A Memory of Light. And I’m talking about the Seanchan culture, which is built on slavery, so content warnings for that as well.

The thing is, the actual basic trope set-up of Mat & Tuon is not something that I have any issues with -- there are three main tropes that they use: princess & rogue; hero & villain; enemies-to-lovers. Princess and rogue is a classic tropes, seen in such ships as Leia & Han or Jasmine & Aladdin. She sees the true worth of the man behind whatever mask it is that he’s put up, and he brings adventure and affection into her (romantically lonely) life. Rapunzel and Eugene from the Tangled movie also fits into this general shape. Enemies to lovers is also a classic trope, too many examples to list. Hero & Villain (aka ‘dating Catwoman’) is also a pretty classic trope that can be done well if effort is put into showing why these two people are on opposite sides but still drawn to each other.

It’s just that Jordan did it all in the laziest possible way. Which, in fairness, is common with Jordan’s take on romantic tropes. All three of these tropes require a delicate hand willing to do a slow burn so that the audience believes that the characters genuinely have emotionally reached new places with each other. And Jordan doesn’t... bother doing that. He doesn’t even really make an attempt. Instead, he basically just overrides it all with a fourth trope that is a favorite of his in the books: the fated romance. Because Destiny Says So, he has Mat inexplicably decide to take Tuon with him and inexplicably decide to start courting her, without ever emotionally justifying these decisions for Mat’s character, despite having set him up as someone who wanted to run away from his arranged marriage.

While Tuon does ‘see Mat with new eyes’ at the end of KoD (sort of), from what I remember this doesn’t seem to impact her worldview at all; she just goes placidly along with the way her empire works to the very end of the book series. She doesn’t grow as a person as a result of realizing that someone she misjudged was more than he appeared to be or ever become more than the slaver that we were introduced to in Winter’s Heart, because Jordan never lets Mat genuinely challenge her (from what I remember, people mostly don’t ever challenge Tuon... maybe because if they did, it would be too obvious how paper-thin her arguments are).

And, of course, most of the time, the villain in a hero-villain romance isn’t a slaver. Usually, they’re well, like Catwoman -- sure, she breaks the law but she’s not out there to deliberately hurt innocent people.

Mat’s initial introduction to Tuon is as ‘Tylin’s Toy’, which is to say, essentially as a piece of property that she finds intriguing (she attempts to buy him from Tylin the first time she meets him). She even thinks of him as ‘Toy’ for quite a while (though I don’t recall how long exactly and whether or not he ever gets to be ‘Mat’ before she takes his name away again and replaces it with a new one - and yes, I know she sees the new name as an honor, but I’m pretty sure Tylin also saw making Mat her pretty as an honor - the Tylin-Tuon similarities are also one of the things that make me dislike the relationship).

The fact that she persistently continues to call him ‘Toy’ is honestly something I find genuinely disgusting because she is a slaver, because she does view people as objects. So it can never be a ‘cute’ nickname with ‘sexual tension’ for me because a. the reason she calls him that is because his rapist treated him like a toy; b. she literally tried to buy him the first time they met; c. I believe that he repeatedly asks her to call him by his own name and she refuses.

And my final big thing is that Tuon’s sticking point in A Memory of Light, the issue that she WILL NOT back down from even when a ta’veren is trying his best to work his influence on her, is that she refuses to release any of her enslaved channeling women. She would literally rather let the Dark One take over the world than give up a single one of her new damane. Rand has to agree to let her keep all the women that she and her empire have kidnapped, tortured, and enslaved in the Westlands, before she will agree to help save the world. Nothing matters more to Tuon than keeping her slaves! And this is in the final book! As you can tell, it really bothers me!

This is basically the thing that makes me go 'well, I guess literally the only possible way to improve the Seanchan Empire is to depose or assassinate Tuon, because she's made her position on reform very clear'.

Overall, it is very difficult for me to look at Mat & Tuon as anything except Tuon doing her best to ‘break’ her husband to the leash (which was something Egwene Dreamed about back in book 4; a Seanchan woman leashing Mat) and make him accept his place as her property, while Mat tries to hold onto his sense of personal identity in the face of both Tuon and the Pattern itself trying to turn him into nothing but a tool. And I do not personally find any of that either romantic or Romantic. Instead, I find it really heartbreaking for Mat.

Things I will be keeping an eye out for during my reread:

1. Any signs that Tuon is capable of changing her worldview of viewing people as essentially proto-property, with their personhood as a status that can be revoked at any time. From what I remember, she flirts with the idea from time to time, but always comes down on the side of not allowing her worldview to budge an inch.

2. Any signs that she sees Mat as more than property (and sleeping with him does not count for this. Tuon condemning other people for sleeping with ‘their property’ does not mean she is not capable of justifying it for herself; we see her be a hypocrite about the sul’dam issue as well) -- I am uncertain if/when this ever happens for her. We know that she saw him as property when she first met him. Does she ever see him as a person or does she just see him as more useful property?

Things that I’m hoping that I won’t see:

1. Any signs that Mat is starting to share Tuon’s view of people as proto-property. Really hoping that I won’t see this. Honestly, one of the things that I dislike the most about both Mat and Perrin’s romances is how it feels like it damages them as characters (and the same for what the Rand x Min romance does to Min as a character). Their romances actively make them worse people. Perrin’s romance with Faile turns him into an obsessive, petty, frustrating person who shirks his responsibilities (he eventually gets... better-ish? after like ten or twelve books). Mat’s ‘romance’ with Tuon... makes him willing to use slaves, among other things. I do think that he does still tries to remember that they’re people, but he is willing to own and use damane during AMOL, if I remember correctly which...ugh.

Ugh, I have to admit, I am really dreading getting into the ‘How I Fell in Love (?) With a Slaver’ aspect of Mat’s storyline in the upcoming books. Perrin and Faile’s storyline starts out pretty terribly and they have horrible communication issues, but I do believe that they both at least see each other as human beings who are worth being treated as equals, even if they fail on the application sometimes. I do not get that vibe from Tuon and her relationship with Mat.

But of course, all my issues with Mat and Tuon also tie into my feelings that the Seanchan as a whole are narratively unsatisfying. We end up with a lot of build-up for them, and zero payoff. They were introduced in book two (empire-shaking secret included!) and there’s still no payoff by the end of book fourteen. Thirteen books of build-up and then no payoff!

Obviously, they don’t need to solve the Problem of the Seanchan but we could have gotten a Hope Spot of some kind (...and if Tuon being pregnant and ‘jokingly’ telling Mat that this means she can kill him now was supposed to be our Hope Spot, it very much fell flat with me).

We’re told multiple times that the secret of the sul’dam being channeling learners will rock the empire to its foundations but because this story wasn’t about that, because it was supposed to happen in The Next Story, instead it all ends in an unsatisfying whiffle as Tuon basically (and hypocritically) just goes, “nah, I don’t care, I’m gonna keep enslaving the people just like me (while denying that they’re people like me)”. The issue that was supposed to change the empire is dismissed as meaningless. All of the amazing set up that Egeanin’s character gave us goes nowhere in terms of cultural transformation and upheaval, which makes the entire Seanchan presence in the storyline feel pointless.

(the Seanchan ending is also frustrating because it feels like it undermines one of the main messages of the book series, that free will matters and is worth fighting for, so there’s that too; everyone giving slaver empress Tuon a free pass really feels like it undermines Rand’s ‘win’ against the Dark One and his realization about the importance of free will because, as Empress of Seanchan, Tuon is now the main symbol of stripping people of their free will and will be doing basically the Shadow’s work into the Fourth Age, as Seanchan culture already mimics the Shadow so closely in so many ways, as I’ve talked about before as I’ve gone through this reread: breaking people into desperately eager slavery, mindtraps vs a’dam, ‘lessers’ groveling to the Chosen/Blood above them, ravens and moons as their main symbolism)

And that’s essentially the issue with Mat & Tuon as well. Perhaps she was going to have character growth at some point, but if so, it all got punted off to the outriggers that never happened, and so we ended up with a terrible person who is allowed to treat one of the main protagonists poorly and get rewarded for it with his loyalty, who actively turns down every opportunity that she’s given to be a slightly better person, who gets to be one of the few people bodyguarded during the apocalypse, and who gets to dance off into the sunset with a bunch of slaves that she will get to abuse for years into the future.

Also, because Tuon never follows through on any character growth, it ultimately feels like her relationship with Mat was a waste of narrative space that could have gone to something that actually had a point, and a waste of all the (incredibly over the top) suffering that the books put Mat through to get him to a place where it would be even remotely believable that he would stay anywhere near Tuon long enough to ‘fall in love’ with her (ie everything with Tylin and Ebou Dar) or grimly accept his future with her or whatever it really is that happened.

Tuon could have believably made that same bargain with Rand even if she’d never met Mat, because she bends so little on the issue that matters most to her (keeping her slaves) that the Mat/Tuon relationship feels like it could be snipped out entirely and Tuon would have the same emotional ending point that she did with the relationship existing. All you would need is someone to rescue her from Semirhage, and then make the exact same crappy deal due to her ‘gratitude’ over the save. No autonomy-destroying romance required. But as it is, so much of her in-book storyline just feels like a waste of time because it doesn’t go anywhere.

All the way up until AMOL, I could say “okay, she has time to actually have payoff as a character; the relationship has time; the culture has time” and then the story was over and it felt like Tuon basically just jogged in place for five books, except now she’s pregnant.

From what I remember, Winter’s Heart is the best we'll ever get with Tuon, because she starts off as a horrible person but one who has flashes of almost-empathy. She had so much potential to be a great character and have an actual character arc because she is young and had a shitty formative childhood, etc. And then her potential just gets squandered over the remaining books as she actively chooses to stay the worst version of herself and gets rewarded for it by the narrative.

So, yeah. That about sums up my issues. It all feels like so much wasted potential and I’m frustrated by it.

And now I’ll find out if rereading Winter’s Heart and the following books changes my mind on any of this! Maybe I will have a mat x tuon epiphany akin to my cauthor epiphany. You never know.

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welcometogrouchland · 1 year

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Oh I should do something with that toh/spider-verse art I made a while back

#ramblings of a lunatic #toh #spiderverse #yeah i guess we'll tag for that!#it was in my sketchbook so you guys haven't seen it #i put luz as miles bc while they're characters definitely aren't like. The Same #there are some similarities i see and appreciate #like luz isn't a high expectations kid but she is artistic and has the like. not the same but a similar thread in her arc #of realizing that she is enough on her own despite the ways she fails to conform to what ppl want/try to force her to be #also. afrolatino bisexual swag. obviously #also it's really funny bc I DREW HUNTER AS BEN REILLY #JUST BC I WAS LIKE 'Oh sad blonde clone boys' AND THEN BR WAS PORTRAYED LIKE THAT IN SPIDER-VERSE #HILARIOUS #I LOVE IT #i think somewhere in my notes i said that gwen was amity eda was peter b and caleb was 'perfect Peter'#with gus and willow presumably filling in for the spider b-team that appears in both movies #(penny noir and ham in movie 1 and pavitr and hobie in movie 2)#anyway yeah idk if I'll like. have time tomorrow to that (or. anything else. so scared for Wednesday but also LET ME OUT PLS GOD)#but if i do i will #also gotta download both movies so i can have a movie night w/ the gang where we watch both

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scholarhect · 5 months

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i watched barbie again it was fun. honestly am more convinced of it having done what it set out to do than i was before. like i get it now. there are things you could criticize about what kind of movie they chose to make but i would say they were pretty successful in making a movie that worked

#post tag #by which i mean i don’t think there’s any glaringly obvious issues with like. it claiming to be feminist but being antifeminist. or anything #but like sure you could say ‘do we really need a movie that portrays barbie this way’ or something like that #it does have . some flaws. but like. plot beats aren’t bad i don’t think #i think i was more weirded out by the ken ending before than i am now #she didn’t really fall all over herself to make ken feel better. she just went to him because she had affection for him as a friend #and they had to move on from what happened #and like yes trying to invent patriarchy was a bad thing to do to her but like. it’s like the steven & the diamonds thing #what happened isn’t treated as very serious because it’s just a fully unserious movie #and like. like i said i guess. you could say they shouldn’t write a plot like that if they’re not going to be serious about it #but idk. i don’t think it’s so bad

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firefly-fez · 1 year

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look i’m not saying morgana was justified, okay. i’m not saying i condone murder, okay. i’m just saying she was 100% valid in everything she ever said or did and i would have made exactly all of the same choices myself. okay?

#bbc merlin #morgana #morgana pendragon #look if i grew up hating myself under an abusive father because he’s persecuting my kind #and the two people who knew exactly what i was going through and why gaslit me instead of helping #and one of my closest friends let me sit in misery all alone when he could have extended compassion #and told me we were going through the same thing #but instead he shut me out #left me in a position where i was afraid and vulnerable to anyone who could take advantage of me #by telling me the words i needed to hear #and then when i fell for the trap terrified of a mistake i couldnt take back #he cast me out and killed me for it #or at least he tried to #…..yeah i would have become evil too.#like 100%#she had a legit claim to the throne #and its not like trying to overthrow a king who persecutes your ppl is like. THAT immoral. is she consumed by vengance? yes.#but you could legit rewrite the whole story from morganas perspective and portray her as a hero and arthur as a villain.#without changing a thing in the plot.#*sigh* …… forever obssessed with the implications of what women are villified FOR #morgana deserved a monologue where she gets to go OFF at merlin tbh #morgana deserved a redemption arc

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radical-dadical-rafael · 8 months

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I so understand why ppl like making content where Jon and Daisy are friends but have you considered the fact that um. They wouldn't be.

#raf's rambles #akdjqjd okay I'm not gonna be mean abt people's fanon (even though I often am whoops)#but. Yeah.#the way people portray Daisy in general is kinda weird #but like. What makes Daisy a good character is the fact that she's not good!!!#what she's done! Unjustifiable! And she knows it!! And instead of wallowing in that. She tries to be better. And she doesn't ask #for the people she hurt to forgive her #she's trying to be better for the sake of being better! Not to be 'redeemed' in the eyes of better. Not to 'make up' for what she's done #not to undo her badness. But to work towards something better bc she wants to be #The thing that makes Jon and Daisy interesting it's that. They are the only two characters in the show that understand what it means #to be part of an entity. That I feel like is why Jon; even if he didn't forgive her; was still civil and willing to help her #because he understands her. And she understands him.#but they aren't friends. He's uncomfortable around her; I think that much is clear #She /scares/ him. He said he never felt more hopeless than when she dragged him to the forest to kill him. She was proud to show off the #new scar she left on him. He wouldn't be friends with her!!!!#and she wouldn't ASK for his friendship either!! She wouldn't expect that from him!!! She wouldn't /want/ that from him #bc she understands that she's hurt him!! And she can't take that back!!! But she can convince him to get out of his office w her and Basira #and she can try to make herself less of a threatening presence. And she can be civil #and yeah idk this is getting away from me but yeah they wouldn't be friends #and honestly!! I don't think they'd be friends in any universe!#not /really/#not unless you entirelyyyyy change Daisy as a character #which ofc ppl have no qualms w doing. Which is fine!!! Have fun #but. Yeah!#my thoughts on that

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bumblingbabooshka · 2 years

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Tuvok is such a dad but I think we can think of more creative/nuanced relationships for him beyond that. For example: I think he should be B’Elanna’s worst enemy and religious mirror.

#people seeing Tuvok only as a mentor figure to other characters is giviiiiinnggg............................................................#it's giviiiiiiing...........magicaaal.......................#-claps- Like. He doesn't need to be /everyone's/ father figure. And he isn't.#Interestingly I see this same thing with Sisko. Where despite him having a lot of complex relationships with others most of the stuff I see #is just 'Sisko is such a dad <3' which he /is/...he /is/ a father but like he's not /just/ that #-points to my chalkboard- by B'Elanna's worst enemy and religious mirror #I mean that he was a spy for Starfleet which I feel like B'Elanna should NOT forgive as easily as she seems to especially given her #personality. And also that in Barge of the Dead he's put in the role of someone who upholds and adheres to religion and punishes her for not #living up to it...keeps coming at her with a weapon. Tuvok is stated to be religious at several points in the show and both #he and B'Elanna have rebellious pasts - only Tuvok seemingly grew out of his and is now an Exemplerary Vulcan. The Most Vulcan Vulcan.#which also means he says shit like 'Despite your primitive Klingon instincts you control yourself quite well.' which again....worst enemy #there's a lot of interesting stuff there!#One day I want to detail exactly what the vibe of Tuvok's relationship to every other character is (in my eyes of course)#but it'd be embarrassingly obvious how much thought I put it into it #but someone has to <- I say to try to seem rational #but yeah stopping at Tuvok is Harry's dad...he's B'Elanna's dad...he's Kes's dad...He's Tom's dad...sure...but #he's also a character in his own right isn't he? Or do you only view the black character as being there to aid others' emotional journeys?#Same thing where I read fics that portray Harry as being very soft and submissive. He isss NOT. He isn't. He just isn't.#-heavy sigh as I sink under my desk- every day I go to ao3 and see that Tuvok is tagged in a fic in which he has one line #<- the misery

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lepidopteragirl · 2 years

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no but i could write a goddamn essay about all the ways making sophie sge a lesbian could have made those books one hundred thousand times better

#like obvs i get why he didnt do it but srsly everything weird about sophies character arc in the 6th book could be solved by having her end #up w a girl #like i am fully for tedros and agatha (at least in the first 3 we dont talk about what the fuck he did to them in 4-6) they're iconic #whatever etc #but sophie should have gotten a damn gf and ill die on this hill #like. everything about her and the way she thinks about needing 3 be with a prince is sooo. well #lets just say it reeks so dearly of girl who has grown up just extremely surrounding herself in traditionally soo strictly feminine social #roles and etc #trying to convince herself she does like boys she does she is attracted to boys #while developing deep emotional/romantic bonds with none of them and at them same time acting Like That about agatha #(clarifying that i think her and agatha together would be bad even if u ignore that whole magic twins shit. just do not have those vibes #but her friendship w aggie is SO lesbian who cares more about/is weirdly possessive of close female friend than guy she says shes into)#and her whole arc as a metaphor for her figuring out that she actually likes women would ahv been so fucking good #like i was v happy w the end of her book 3 ending on her own yknow? her ending up w a guy makes no sense and as fond as i am of hort #<- wet cat man supreme #it really fucks with her arc and how her relationship with men had been portrayed through the book #*books #like love is such a central theme in her character and i want her to have someone but i also think it being a boy falls flat #like honestly in my ideal world hort was just a girl #like no other change hort is a girl and they kiss #it really does work and also we would ahve gotten sad milk filled webkinz fcuking wet cat werewolf woman representation we all want #anyway #sophie's a lesbian in the same way regina george is a lesbian can anyone hear me #and agatha is bisexual in the same way elle woods is bisexual send post #tedros is also bi but thats like literally canon lmao

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tearlessrain · 2 months

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please help me- i used to be pretty smart but i’m having so much trouble grasping the concept of diegetic vs non-diegetic bdsm!

gfkjldghfd okay first of all I'm sorry for the confusion, if you're not finding anything on the phrase it's because I made it up and absolutely nobody but me ever uses it, but I haven't found a better way to express what I'm trying to say so I keep using it. but now you've given me an excuse to ramble on about some shit that is only relevant to me and my deeply inefficient way of talking and by god I'm going to take it.

SO. the way diegetic and non-diegetic are normally used is to talk about music and sound design in movies/tv shows. in case you aren't familiar with that concept, here's a rundown:

diegetic sound is sound that happens within the world of the movie/show and can be acknowledged by the characters, like a song playing on the stereo during a driving scene, or sung on stage in Phantom of the Opera. it's also most other sounds that happen in a movie, like the sounds of traffic in a city scene, or a thunderclap, or a marching band passing by. or one of the three stock horse sounds they use in every movie with a horse in it even though horses don't really vocalize much in real life, but that's beside the point, the horse is supposed to be actually making that noise within the movie's world and the characters can hear it whinnying.

non-diegetic sound is any sound that doesn't exist in the world of the movie/show and can't be perceived by the characters. this includes things like laugh tracks and most soundtrack music. when Duel of Fates plays in Star Wars during the lightsaber fight for dramatic effect, that's non-diegetic. it exists to the audience, but the characters don't know their fight is being backed by sick ass music and, sadly, can't hear it.

the lines can get blurry between the two, you've probably seen the film trope where the clearly non-diegetic music in the title sequence fades out to the same music, now diegetic and playing from the character's car stereo. and then there are things like Phantom of the Opera as mentioned above, where the soundtrack is also part of the plot, but Phantom of the Opera does also have segments of non-diegetic music: the Phantom probably does not have an entire orchestra and some guy with an electric guitar hiding down in his sewer just waiting for someone to break into song, but both of those show up in the songs they sing down there.

now, on to how I apply this to bdsm in fiction.

if I'm referring to diegetic bdsm what I mean is that the bdsm is acknowledged for what it is in-world. the characters themselves are roleplaying whatever scenarios their scenes involve and are operating with knowledge of real life rules/safety practices. if there's cnc depicted, it will be apparent at some point, usually right away, that both characters actually are fully consenting and it's all just a planned scene, and you'll often see on-screen negotiation and aftercare, and elements of the story may involve the kink community wherever the characters are. Love and Leashes is a great example of this, 50 Shades and Bonding are terrible examples of this, but they all feature characters that know they're doing bdsm and are intentional about it.

if I'm talking about non-diegetic bdsm, I'm referring to a story that portrays certain kinks without the direct acknowledgement that the characters are doing bdsm. this would be something like Captive Prince, or Phantom of the Opera again, or the vast majority of bodice ripper type stories where an innocent woman is kidnapped by a pirate king or something and totally doesn't want to be ravished but then it turns out he's so cool and sexy and good at ravishing that she decides she's into it and becomes his pirate consort or whatever it is that happens at the end of those books. the characters don't know they're playing out a cnc or D/s fantasy, and in-universe it's often straight up noncon or dubcon rather than cnc at all. the thing about entirely non-diegetic bdsm is that it's almost always Problematic™ in some way if you're not willing to meet the story where it's at, but as long as you're not judging it by the standards of diegetic bdsm, it's just providing the reader the same thing that a partner in a scene would: the illusion of whatever risk or taboo floats your boat, sometimes to extremes that can't be replicated in real life due to safety, practicality, physics, the law, vampires not being real, etc. it's consensual by default because it's already pretend; the characters are vehicles for the story and not actually people who can be hurt, and the reader chose to pick up the book and is aware that nothing in it is real, so it's all good.

this difference is where people tend to get hung up in the discourse, from what I've observed. which is why I started using this phrasing, because I think it's very crucial to be able to differentiate which one you're talking about if you try to have a conversation with someone about the portrayal of bdsm in media. it would also, frankly, be useful for tagging, because sometimes when you're in the mood for non-diegetic bodice ripper shit you'd call the police over in real life, it can get really annoying to read paragraphs of negotiation and check-ins that break the illusion of the scene and so on, and the opposite can be jarring too.

it's very possible to blur these together the same way Phantom of the Opera blurs its diegetic and non-diegetic music as well. this leaves you even more open to being misunderstood by people reading in bad faith, but it can also be really fun to play with. @not-poignant writes fantastic fanfic, novels, and original serials on ao3 that pull this off really well, if you're okay with some dark shit in your fiction I would highly recommend their work. some of it does get really fucking dark in places though, just like. be advised. read the tags and all that.

but yeah, spontaneous writer plug aside, that's what I mean.

#I found their original stuff while I was researching various waterhorses and their folklore for no reason #because one of the characters in their original work happens to be an each uisge #and then it turned out it ALSO included a lot of figures from welsh folklore in general #so yknow if you happen to have my incredibly specific hyperfixations you'll love it but even if you don't it's great #I didn't mean to bring up phantom of the opera so much it just happens to be very relevant to a lot of my talking points #I haven't actually seen it in years

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