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scoobydoodean · 4 months

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ok so I deeply love and respect your thoughts on supernatural because the majority of them line up with what I've been thinking for years but you said something the other day that I keep turning over in my brain and it was something along the lines of carver liking dean more than sam - I know you're in the middle of rewatching s4 but I would love to hear you expound on that (if you have time) because I remember being in the fandom while carvernatural was airing and it was pretty much when the deangirl exodus started. in fact I think people tore into him worse than dabb even 😭

feel free to hold onto this until later when you start the carver seasons if you wish :)

<3 I'll go ahead and answer this one, because it's more of a "broad strokes" thing for me, and I've been rewatching very slowly (on purpose) so that could be a very long wait.

This is so funny because I can just picture Sam fans reading it and turning red and their blood boiling with the fire of a thousand suns but the TL;DR is that season 8-11 (Carver era) broad strokes to me are:

Sam sucks and is a worse brother and person than Dean.

Sam spends the first two seasons of Carver's run thinking he's a better person than Dean anyway and then the second two knowing he sucks, deciding to embrace his moral flexibility to keep Dean alive no matter the cost, and trying to mend things.

Dean is circled by many potential suitors who also in a sense represent Sam replacements because Sam sucks: Benny, Cas, Crowley, and Amara.

Dean knows that Sam sucks and part of him wants to get tf away from him very badly but another part of him feels guilty for wanting that. Family is suffering. Family is a chain around your neck keeping you tied to them via guilt. (Demon Dean represents the desire for escape, as does Amara).

Everybody wants to be with Dean, be Dean, and/or be loved by Dean. Dean is love. Dean is the world. Dean is the reason for existing. Everybody is lovesick about him. Sam is just there.

Sam needs to stop blaming Dean for so many things and learn to own his own choices.

That was fun to write down.

Longer commentary/explanation below the cut.

Season 8 (Carver's first season) literally begins with a Sam character assassination. It begins with us learning that Sam knowingly left Kevin to spend the rest of his life kidnapped and tortured without even telling a soul what happened to him. Not only did he abandon Dean and Cas as well but he didn't even look for them, and refuses to give a satisfying answer as to why.

Season 8 Sam's abandonment as distinct from previous behavior

I have had people this year who I love and respect tell me they don't view this as a character assassination and say they believe this is in character for Sam. I simply do not agree with that. I talk about this as it relates to Kevin here.

Sam has displayed selfishness and a big ego at many points in the series up to season 8. He's told a lot of lies (sometimes to the point of gaslighting), he's gone behind Dean's back to do things that affect Dean's life, he's taken traumatic experiences Dean opened up to him about and ultimately harmed Dean with them, he's shown resentments and anger, he's displayed jealousy, he's displayed a sense of superiority. He has never abandoned his brother to die without even trying. The Sam of season 3 would eviscerate season 8 Sam for this.

Sometimes Sam says and does things he shouldn't, but his crimes do not include "abandoning Dean to die without even looking for him" up to season 8. Many of his crimes happen at least partly because he really really doesn't want Dean to die or is desperate to save his life. He lets go of his anger at John and returns to make sure Dean is safe in 1.11. He refuses to give up and finds a way to save Dean in 1.12. In 1.22, he's willing to put John's life at risk for revenge, but in 2.01 he gets into an outright screaming match with John in the hospital under the belief that John's prioritizing the demon over Dean. Sam spends all of season 3 raging and angst-ing about not being able to save Dean to the point of considering and doing some shady as hell things/abandoning some of his more stalwart moral stances (3.05, 3.11, 3.15, 3.16). Dean's death and later, the desire to secure his safety/future, is one of the catalysts for Sam's descent into drinking demon blood (3.09, 3.16, 4.04, 4.09, 4.12). When he dies in "Swan Song", he urges Dean to pursue a normal, safe, life because he knows that at that point in time, Dean wants to get out but has always felt trapped (2.09, 2.10, 2.20, 3.01, 4.12, 4.16). Even Soulless Sam (who isn't the same as regular Sam) tried to look for Dean in 6.09 "Clap Your Hands If You Believe"—it was simply that when leads for the night dried up, he hooked up with someone because he had nothing more to go on and in soulless Sam's head that was the reasonable thing to do. But soulless Sam also certainly isn't representative of the real Sam—the fact that he doesn't care as much is supposed to point us to differences between him and regular Sam. Season 8 opens with Sam abandoning Dean in a context that makes him arguably worse than his soulless self.

(I talk about why Sam actually abandons everyone in season 8 in a very long post here).

Season 8 and 9 more broadly

So Carver has Sam abandon Dean to die without even trying. Then he has Sam refuse to give any kind of actually reasonable explanation that makes sense to anyone who was paying attention. Then he has Sam say that he's going to leave the life and Dean needs to get over it and accept that Sam's new life will not include contact with Dean (just like his life at Stanford didn't). While saying he's going to leave, he still wants to exert control over Dean's relationships and leverages the threat of leaving (as if he were going to stay) to get Dean to shut up about Sam abandoning him and then again to try and get Dean to cut ties with Benny. He wants to kill Benny before knowing a single thing about him. He assigns someone (Martin) who he knows is mentally unstable and has a more black and white perception of monsters to track Benny and gets Martin killed. He watches Martin knock Dean unconscious and chain him up in a room and doesn't stop it because he wants Benny dead that bad, but then has the audacity to act as if Dean sending him a fake text is worse than Sam literally chaining him up in a room to prevent Sam from killing an innocent person (someone Sam would normally—btw—defend based on episodes like 2.03 and 4.04 or even a few episodes ago with Kate in "Bitten"). He tells Amelia he wants to fight for their relationship then the moment Dan says they should leave the choice to Amelia, he leaves so that it becomes his choice, and then he returns for one episode just to be a homewrecker. He insists on doing The Trials while promising to survive them and giving a big speech about how he's going to save Dean from his own suicidal ideation and then drops the promise as if it never existed two episodes later. Sam loses confidence in himself to complete The Trials and then acts like Dean is the one who doesn't believe in him because Dean is caring for him and insisting he rest and this is an unforgivable offense. At the end of the season, he basically says he's going to commit suicide because Dean has friends besides him. He acts as if he deserves to be Dean's most trusted confidant after an entire season of him being an absolutely fucking terrible brother and acts like Dean is just a big meanie whose feelings are irrational.

After all of this, he has the audacity, in season 9, to suggest that Dean is a bad person who can't stand the thought of being alone. He tells Dean he's the worst person ever and they can only be work partners from now on because Dean is so so bad and evil for stopping him from committing suicide and then not telling him about Gadreel. At the end of the season he admits this was a lie. He just wanted to punish Dean (9.23).

I can see how—if you were watching live at the time (I started watching when season 11 was airing) you'd lose hope. You'd quit the show over all of this, because it seems to go on forever. It's like torture. I would drop kick season 8 Sam into a pit full of lava without hesitation so I get it. If I believed that Carver was actually saying "Yes so true Dean is The Worst™️ and Sam is morally superior <3" for two seasons straight I'd quit the show too. But that isn't what he's saying. We're supposed to read between the lines and realize how unbelievably full of shit Sam is—how deeply selfish and hypocritical he's being. How yes—Dean has made mistakes—but Sam is NOT a better person than him and has gotten away with some absolutely rancid garbage. And season 10 and 11 go on to beat you over the head with it if you didn't get it the first time.

Season 10 and 11

Season 10 opens with this dialogue from a demon:

I heard the rumors. I said "no, that can't be." A Winchester, one of us? But it's true, isn't it? Whatever soul you had; whatever boy scout code you cuddled up to at night; it's all gone. Leaving what? Look at you!

We're meant to think she's talking about Dean who just woke up with black eyes, but then the camera cuts to Sam torturing her, demanding to know where Dean is.

In 10.03, we learn that Sam talked a man (Lester) into selling his soul so he could use him as bait. Demon Dean ends up being assigned to fulfill Lester's deal (to kill his wife for cheating on him). Dean immediately clocks Lester as having cheated on her first and kills Lester for being an insufferable hypocrite... and while he's doing it, I'm pretty sure he's also thinking of Sam's flaming hypocrisy.

SAM: I never meant— DEMON DEAN: Who cares what you meant?! That line that we thought was so clear between us and the things that we hunted, ain’t so clear is it? Wow. You might actually be worse than me! I mean, you took a guy at his lowest, used him, and it cost him his life and his soul. Nice work.

NOTE: 10.03 also recalls 4.21—an episode Sam fans have always tended to emphasize as a "Dean crime" episode where Dean risks Sam's death to force a detox. Sam does the reverse—pumping Dean full of human blood here in 10.03 and explicitly risking his death.

Sam gets Suzie killed in "The Werther Project" while searching for The Book of the Damned.

SAM I’m sorry, okay? I’m so sorry. SUZIE Lot of good “sorry” does me. Look at me. Look….at….me. [She points to her corpse.] There she is. The first casualty of your misguided mission. But what’s another human life to you? Anything’s worth it, as long as you two make it out alive. And how’s that search going? Any closer to a cure? SAM This isn’t real. You’re not real. SUZIE You think Dean’s the wild card, the loose cannon. But don’t you see? Making deals with witches, opening Pandora’s box down there? You’re the reckless one. You’ll do anything to keep clinging to that doomed brother of yours. How many more will die, Sammy? You know it. You have to be stopped. And the only one who can stop you is you!

A few episodes later, Sam orders Oskar's death for a spell to remove the Mark of Cain. I've seen hilarious posts before about how he had no choice but to do this because MoC Dean is so scawy and bad but that quite explicitly is not his motivation. They could have done so many other things. Throw him into space. Bury him in a really deep hole. Put him in something like The Cage. But Sam didn't like any of those options, because all of them meant being without his brother, and he's realized he doesn't want to be without him no matter the cost (10.18).

SAM So, awhile back, we had a chance to, um…close the gates of Hell. And in order to do that, I would’ve had to die. And, I was okay with that, and I am okay with that, but Dean was not. And so, he uh… CHARLIE He saved you. SAM Yeah, he saved me. CHARLIE And let me guess, in doing so, he did something you didn’t want, and that pissed you off. And you said something that hurt him? SAM Yeah, that sounds about right. [...] SAM You know, when Dean came to get me at school, I-I told myself… one last job, you know? One more job. And then when – when I, um…. When I lost Jess, I, again, told myself one more job. There’s always one more job, you know? And one more job, and one more job, and then I was gonna go back to law and – and to my life. CHARLIE You were the Dread Pirate Roberts of hunting. SAM Yeah. I guess I really understand now that….this is my life. I love it. But I can��t do it without my brother. I don’t want to do it without my brother. And if he’s gone, then I don’t…. CHARLIE I got it. I-I do.

This all culminates in 10.23, where a very mentally unstable MoC Dean attempts to reason with Sam about them both being evil and needing to take themselves out:

DEAN: Remember when we were in that church, making Crowley human, about to close the Gates of Hell? Well, you sure as hell were ready to die for the greater good then. SAM: Yeah, and, Dean, you pulled me back. DEAN: And I was wrong. You were right, Sam. You knew that this world would be better without us in it. SAM: No, no, no, wait a second. You're twisting my words here, Dean. DEAN: Why? Because we -- we track evil and kill it? The family business? Is that it? Look at the tape, Sam. Evil tracks us. And it nukes everything in our vicinity -- our family, our friends. It's time we put a proper name to what we really are and we deal with it. SAM: Wait a second. We are not evil. Listen... We're far from perfect, but we are good. That thing on your arm is evil, but not you, not me. DEAN: I let Rudy die. How was that not evil? I know what I am, Sam. But who were you when you --when you drove that man to sell his soul... Or when you bullied Charlie into getting herself killed? And to what end? A-a good end? A just end? To remove the Mark no matter what the consequences? Sam, how is that not evil? I have this thing on my arm, and you're willing to let the Darkness into the world. SAM: You were also willing to summon death to make sure you could never do any more harm. You summoned me because you knew I would do anything to protect you. That's not evil, Dean. That's not an evil man. That is a good man crying to be heard, searching for... some other way.

Dean is saying a lot of shady shit here, but some of what he's saying... isn't wrong?

Sam is willing to let The Darkness destroy the world, and he does, and then standing in the aftermath of a town being destroyed by the force he unleashed, Sam says:

SAM: I unleashed a force on this world that could destroy it . . . to save you. DEAN: And I told you not to. SAM: And I'd do it again. In a second, I would do it again.

Thousands of people are dying and Sam says he would do it again. This post about Sam's actions versus Dean stopping Sam from closing the gates of hell is highly relevant.

Season 11 continues with Sam taking a little more responsibility for his own decisions, while praying for Dean to live (11.02):

SAM: So . . . I know it's been a long time, but . . . Dean and I, we've -- we've been through a lot of bad. But this is different. This is my fault, and I don't know how to fix it. And if I have to die, I've made my peace with that, but . . . Please. Dean deserves better. Dean deserves a life. There are people out there, good people, who are going to suffer because of me, and I am not asking you to clean up my mess. Hell, I don't even know if you're out there, but . . . If you are . . . And if you can hear me, I, um . . . We need your help, God. We need to know there's hope. We need a sign.

And then there's the VERY long-awaited apology:

SAM When I was with Lucifer, he, um... He showed me things. It was like a highlight reel of my biggest failures. DEAN Yeah, he was messing with you. That's what he does. SAM Give me a sec. I should've looked for you. When you were in Purgatory, I... I should've turned over every stone.

Family (Sam) as chains

While all of this is happening, we also have Benny and Cas and Crowley and Amara.

Benny is contrast—someone whose goodness and selfless loyalty only makes Sam's horrible flaws stand out more sharply in season 8. Under the influence of the specter, Dean says, "Benny has been more of a brother to me this past year than you have ever been" and Sam can't stand it. It haunts him so bad he tries to kill Benny, and can't get over it even after the end of the season when Benny is fucking dead. He is unable to accept that the contrast between himself and Benny is his own fault.

Crowley and Dean's flirtations begin in season 9, as Sam suffocates Dean, and at the end of the season, Crowley has literally convinced Dean to run away with him. In 10.01, there is a delightful phone call where Crowley rubs it in Sam's face that Dean is with HIM:

SAM I don't know how you did this, what kind of... Black-magic stunt you pulled, but hear me --I will save my brother or die trying. CROWLEY You know what tickles me about all this? It's what's really eating you up. You don't care that he's a demon. Heck, you've been a demon. We've all been demons. No, it's that he's with me and he's having the time of his life. You can't stand the fact that he's mine. SAM He's not your pet. CROWLEY My pet? He's my best friend, my partner in crime. They'll write songs about us, graphic novels. “The Misadventures of Growley and Squirrel." Dean Winchester completes me, and that's what makes you lose your chickens.

It's this cruel callback to Sam's jealousy of Benny and Cas in season 8—how Crowley convinced Dean to finally ditch his smothering, controlling brat of little brother who can't stand him having friends, and now Dean is having the time of his life howling at the moon. The problem is, Dean also feels a little bit like maybe Crowley wants to control him too, and that isn't working for him.

Amara in season 11 goes on to further speak on terrible brothers who think they're better than you, who leave you betrayed and diminished, who abandon you. She's raging against the concept of family as chains—she wants revenge... but all the while she's in pain because she still loves her brother. Amara's attraction to Dean is based on that commonality—what she feels is a shared experience and how she wants to cut the last remaining pieces of love she feels for her brother away so she can finally be free of the pain of him—and she doesn't care if she destroys everything—including herself—in the process. (See: Dean slowly losing his identity through the MoC arc). Sam and Dean's relationship is in rehab over this whole season though, and so Dean's role ends up being to convince Amara not to destroy herself—to instead do what Sam and Dean have done and make up and work on improving their relationship.

#writer disk horse #carver #mail #multiseason #season 8 #season 9 #season 10 #season 11 #sams moral compass #deans moral compass #amara #crowley #benny #charlie #family chains

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seenthisepisode · 1 year

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hi! I saw your post about the why episode title change why 11 scenes cut why lamp etc etc and I know some of it but not all, and I was hoping you could elaborate on spngate— if it’s not too much trouble— or point me in a direction where I can join you in the spn gate?

I feel ashamed for HOW LONG i let this ask just rot in my askbox (it's from january, apparently, now it's april. i thought maybe two weeks passed but NO. it was months. ANON I AM SO SO SO SO SORRY. I LOVE YOU WITH ALL MY HEART) but now with the power of this url and the wine i am currently sipping, let me give you the best, most thought-out answer that i possibly can.

I don't know how long you've been following/watching spn, so I won't get into real deep iceberg theories that go back to season 8 and jeremy carver, for the purpose of this essay answer I'll just stick to the year anno domini 2020, and will try to do my best to tell you what happened.

Okay, maybe 2019. So, in june 2019, when the first scripts and drafts for s15 are presented, these things happen: 1. apparently, according to Berens, the confession scene is the first thing that was written for season 15. 2. Jensen Ackles is sat down and asked if he would be okay with this. (question is asked: why would they ask jensen if all he does in this scene is look at cas, he doesn't say anything, he does not confess, it changes nothing about his character, etc.; if you put the real tjlc tinfoil hat on you'd ask hey , maybe they asked him if precisely that is okay, if he is okay with the fact dean is practically silenced here but that's Deep) 3. Jensen apparently is okay with that, because it happens.

also this thing happens around the same time: 1. they write the ending for the brothers, and no matter what version of the finale we're talking about, Dean dies 2. Jensen Ackles is Not Okay with this. he calls Kripke who then, in a call and/or email assures him it's a good ending (Jensen says that) and also very quickly after that Jensen is announced to play Soldier Boy in Kripke's The Boys. make of that what you want

They film, blah blah, march 2020, covid happens, they stop production right after they film the confession. Last episode to air is 15x13, last episode they film is 15x18, they almost have a plane crush when flying to vegas con, and then, a loooong break until august 2020. Now, from what we know, there were two versions of the finale - the pre-covid finale they were supposed to film if the filming schedule wasn't interrupted, and the finale that happened.

What was supposed to be in the Original Finale/Pre-Covid Finale, we still don't know exactly, but from what the cast said, there was supposed to be a big cast reunion, Harvelle's Roadhouse in Heaven, Kansas Band (why are they dead?) playing there after Dean gets there and so on.

Anyway. July 2020. Misha does a livestream with Michael Sheen (the SuperGood campaign) where he says he is going back to filming the last two episodes in a few weeks. he said it LIVE. it's on youtube. people analyze the background from Misha's livestreams and photos and conclude he is in Vacouver, where spn is filmed. He also says that he is going back filming in a few interviews. Also here.

August 2020. They go back to filming in august 2020 to film 15x19 and 15x20.

August 20th, 2020, Misha's birthday.

I wasn't on set TODAY. so casual. of all days i wasn't there today.

August 24th, 2020, day 6/8 of filming 15x19, Angel with a Shotgun is hash tag Song of The Day while filming scenes of 15x19 (scene 28, 31).

September 4th, 2020. ALL THEY FILM, for the whole DAY, is one scene. They usually film a few. They film one. Song of the day? The Night We Met.

Somewhere before the episodes starts to air again, Dabb says only 30% of the audience will like the finale. Anyway, everyone concludes, Misha is filming, destiel is more or less going canon, but everyone including bibros is sure Misha is filming and will be there for the finale.

Originally, "Despair" was called "The Truth".

Finale airs.

It feels shorter (apparently it's not) but it does have an additional ad break. For Walker. But it feels shorter because of the "carry on my wayward son" cover montage that lasts too long and later it's discovered thanks to scripts that dropped that there are ELEVEN scenes that were filmed,, but didn't make it to the episode. The script that drops is also very telling, where scenes are just [OMMITTED]. It was explained that they wanted to have actor there but they didn't want actors to quarantine for two weeks to film one or two scenes BUT then that's exactly what they did with Jim Beaver lmao.

So yeah. I also remember Misha at a con (DarkLight?) where, after asked about the original ending, he answers that the original ending was something that would be better explored in fanfiction anyway. Theory rises he filmed and was cut off the episode without his or Jensen's knowledge because Misha sat down his kids to watch the spn finale (which was the first episode they were supposed to watch ever, why would he do that if he's not there?) and then, CW SPN twitter posts a goodbye video that has everyone from the cast and their mother BUT MISHA AND JENSEN ARE NOT THERE. Jensens sexy silence starts.

THEN THE WILDEST THING HAPPENS.

November 25th, the Spanish Dub. 15x18 drops in Brazil and Dean says "and i you" to Cas, after he confesses. No "don't do this cas" but "and i you". Tumblr stops working for two hours, people on discords are screaming, no one knows whats happening, someone claims Jensen was called in September 2020 to record some adlibs? To record the muffled sobs Dean does while on the floor. Theory is supported by the fact that in the Bazil version? When Dean sits on the floor? The sound that plays are birds. Chirping birds. Sounds don't match, what was Dean saying while crying on the floor, question arises.

Everyone decides there was a Rogue Translator who managed to hide from The CW Sniper (who is the reason actors just dont tell us everything) and translated some kind of Original Script. Voice Actors are invited to a podcast where they debunk this saying that it was added because the translator felt this was the right response or something like that. Anyway they debunk the fact that there existed, at any time, a version of a script, that maybe was send to them, where Dean says I love you too. This was a wild night, no one slept.

And like. I could make this post longer, but I am planning to, one day, make a huge masterpost with real sources about that because honestly you could write a book about it.

But tl;dr spngate is a theory that misha did film for the last 2 episodes and the changes they made were truly last minute (september 2020), they were going for a canon destiel, possibly human!cas engame, dabb was always on our side, and it's based on stuff like jensen actively hating the ending to the point he made his prequel after 2 years of radio silence, 11 scenes just cut from the finale, misha saying he is going back filming, and people like mark pellegrino saying the last scene he filmed was with alex and misha. also the onion field. why lamp is the theory that cas is represented and symbolized by lamps throughout the show and when dean dances with a Lamp in a drug induced dream instead of, say, some kind of a lady he is actually thinking about cas.

also there are little things like when jensen at an online con before the finale says that oh yes i am wearing a grey flannel but tomorrow? who know it could be blue and green. and we all collectively lost our shit. like when he said he is most excited to "tackle" with cas in season 15. or that "dean has no taste, clearly". WHY WAS YOUR PERMISSION NEEDED JENSEN

there are a lot of things i didn't mention here because i simply can't unflod this whole thing just like that but

but if you understand this picture you might be entitled to financial compensation

#ask #anon #it took me 2 hours to write this #spngate

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shinelikethunder · 4 months

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i know that the most convenient shared reference point for splitting SPN into eras is by showrunner, but subjectively, the instinctive way my brain wants to divide it up is into just two shows: six seasons and change of a show powered by whatever the fuck is wrong with kripke and gamble, and then eight or nine seasons of a show powered by whatever the fuck is wrong with dabb and buckleming.

yeah carver was showrunner for some of those and gamble was hanging on by her fingernails in one, but there's... idk, a derailment that happens in s7. where the show's coherence, its plausibility as a continuation that's at least trying to build seamlessly on what came before, kinda falls down and never gets back up again. and this seems driven, not primarily by showrunner agenda (in fact the hallucifer arc is IMO the last shambling remnant of SPN v1), but by dabb/loflin and buckner/ross-leming stepping up as the meat-and-potatoes midseason episode writers + both duos getting bolder (or less tightly edited) about their worst tendencies.

(tbh i'm curious what carver's tenure would've looked like with a different set of writers taking point on the anchor episodes that weren't openers/finales, because haphazard execution of intriguing concepts was like theeee hallmark of s8-11. but all the same. carver and dabb eras and late gamble era feel grouped, to me, by similar implementation issues dragging down distinct overall approaches. aka "whatever the fuck is wrong with dabb and buckleming," which also includes more and more of their personal narrative kinks as the seasons go on.)

anyway none of this has any objective backstop to it that i can point to, beyond "gosh look at where the Writing Crimes Georg duos started getting handed entire mini-arcs." mostly it's just this vibe that s6 and some of s7 were still cooking in s1-5's kitchen? an attachment to the continuity there, which beats out the conceptual tidiness of "kripke era" as a line to draw between "classic" SPN and everything else. or, to be petty and specific, a sense that 7x03 and the dumbshit subplot it instigated were the shark-jump that SPN never even tried to recover from, after which it functionally became a different show that was far more loosely held together than its predecessor.

#also uhhh maybe some unpopular opinions about the relative quality of s5 vs s6 that make Kripke Era Extended Universe easier to swallow lol #sry 4 enjoying women's wrongs and hating runs of unwatchable episodes way more than a messy season arc that can't pick a landing to stick #¯\_ (ツ)_/¯ as though it's my fault for cheering and clapping when sera terrorizes her lead actors with level 9000 hot girl shit #supernatural #meta #spn s7 #spn s6

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incarnateirony · 2 years

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tbh if you ever feel like dishing I would be interested in a breakdown of the writing room in-fighing in spn ;) I always find the tidbits you drop here and there very thought-provoking. I have my own bias in terms of which writers I stan and I enjoy thinking about bts dynamics. No pressure ofc, but since you mentioned that you *could* expand on that but didn't think people would believe you, I figured I'd let you know you'd have an interested reader here

Alright. I got another comment asking for this too, so here we go.

I'll be clear in that while I know some business decisions before season 9, most of my actual dedicated info for this starts season 9, hence saying seasons 9-15.

Before that though, it's important to learn about a few other things so let's dig in.

So first off, when SPN was made this old blooded industry guy had found a guy writing under WW Vought for Sam's War, filmed it, it didn't work, they tried again. Singer was basically the sign on to give kripke a shove, and stayed long after kripke. he had his personal idyllic takes on the show which aged like milk.

Showrunners rotated and Singer stayed. After Kripke fully left, Singer even hired back in his wife. Singer was never GOOD industry blood. His highest rated film was Cujo which is still a rotten tomatoes embarassment. But he had the clout to get it rolling.

Over time, new showrunners came in and had less and less power compared to Singer more and more rooted in with his wife.

While season 8 carver came in with his 3 year plan, most of it ended up on the cutting room floor or dumped in a bathtub

Carver ran his room a little bit competitively-- like, it was bad enough dealing with Singer's takes, and Carver wanted to do what he wanted to do for that plan and assigned it through. If authors had other ideas, they kinda had to pump it out in an episode, which is why you got killer standout episodes from individual authors like Thompson or Edlund. (One exception arose: the Thompson-Berens friendship picking up one another's plot ends eg First Born > Executioner's Song, Colette, etc which berens even brought up as MOC in S15)

But Carver wasn't down for Singer's shit. Almost the whole room railed against Singer about Charlie, but he made sure his wife wrote it and he directed it when everyone protested. This also made for the season 11 author exodus once contracts expired.

By season 12, not only was Dabb taking over, but really only singer's wife eugenie (and buckner), and bobo were left of old guard. Everyone else walked out. Bobo was still amped for Wayward and stayed. It started as a season 10 fan pitch, got rolled around a few years and almost got launched S12 but was delayed for creative reasons. So he stuck while everyone else walked out.

This is also when the market testing started, and probably came by way of the S9 Destiel books Some Folks:tm: sent to Some Authors:tm: about demographics and testimonials, which Meg Fitz was reading a week after joining Dabb's crew.

For the first year or so (s12), the new writing room was a little cluttered but it was because bobo was grooming the new kids into working as a unit, rather than a competition. Dabb opened up his methods "melting pot" style on ideas, everyone threw their stuff in, they laid it out and figured out how much they could use and where to assign it.

But Eugenie still clung to Eugening and for a while, they tried to write around her. Dangled Mark P carrots to keep her happy and hyperfocused on that and then didn't touch the topics themselves and wrote around it in a way you can almost delete Mark P.

And they were like, hm, this is working. But really eugenie and singer don't even watch the show, they barely ever check the dailies

what would happen if

because god doesn't care

...we just... all... were dabb.

And so they did.

So Dabb gave Berens permission to forge showrunners notes and shit, and kept giving authors clearance to write on whatever. Bobo sort of fathered the philosophy charge and bound together their work, and just. Like, Jeremy for example talking about the help Berens gave him with Last Call is the friendly face of it. The less friendly is fandom wondering why "We Are" is in 15.02 when it's not in the script. I told yall for ages that was Berens overwriting Eugenie, and this is how, and that's not the only place.

Over time you might notice, especially S15, buckleming eps weren't... awful? they weren't overall great but they'd have some surprisingly good shit and be a little less chaotic.

It's because Dabb and Berens realized, you don't argue with Singer, or someone gets dumped in a bathtub offscreen. Just use the fact that chuck doesn't care and wanders off until he wants to force his version of the story down everyone's throat.

The crew was actually intending to make use of budget and filming/schedule limits to run a ball. Covid dropping was just. Ugh. It gave Singer time to realize his entire crew had betrayed him basically.

It wasn't JUST corporate itself slapping back. Singer was that old industry arm for that, and why we had a deadweight on progress and change. It was Singer slapping back and digging in the knife. Or the dickbar. And laughing as Dabb's Pie got smashed in Dean's face when he finally wanted to live and eat. Yeah you can see him laughing with his covid band. Classy.

Dabb got boned at the end. As it was he was barely writing it. He tried to save a lot of Berens and Meredith's work and plans, or what could make it, like Miracle. But I mean, they were fucked 17 ways to sunday, he didn't have his team, his rebels, his crew, he didn't have any of his shit. He just had singer, eugenie, and showalter trying his DAMNDEST to still tell a visual story with 15.19. There's a reason Showalter came back and Singer didn't.

Berens trained up Meredith as his protoge in that time. Others like Yockey were on board, Davy was the supportive and energetic friend and Dabb Let Them Do. Yockey moved on, the others stuck through and ran it as hard as they could.

But there's a reason Meredith was called Berens Work Boyfriend, despite the genders and stuff not matching their sexual prefs etc. It's because the S15 shit was real, man. Chuck didn't care and they would never give him the story they want. Everyone knew Meredith was Dean and Bobo was Cas and they were Work Boyfriends and that's just what it is, so fucking cope.

This shit is why it was kept low key. Like, yes, A FEW SELECT PEOPLE knew it was written first on the season, and got screamed at and called delusional all year by denialists. But even people that know these authors IRL were largely clueless--Natalie Fischer, for example, knows Meredith IRL, but was so clueless about it that she was arguing "don't get people's hopes up" when I said an ILU was coming... and I had the leak in three languages.

It was the only reason he stayed. Anyone that knew him--REALLY KNEW HIM--knew that, before he hinted it at S15 SDCC. Wayward getting murdered on contract BS almost made him walk out, but he stayed only for this, and wrote it first, and made sure the season orbited it. Then they got fucked again by covid, and 2po makes confused monkey sounds why berens might still be influencing it via talking with his bestie but not wanting to sign his soul into another 2 year contract.

Which is why I talk about fandom not understanding the limits of their would be leakers. Know their caps, man.

Either way that's the rough of it. If there's any followup questions I can probably add to it.

Robbie's heavyhanded romance sprint he was told to chill down the accidental predestination on in The Winchesters showed signs of Carver-Singer room trauma. Like THESE ARE MY IDEAS, MINE, I'M WRITING THEM ALL, IT'LL BE A 3 HOUR EPISODE, FUCK YOU. And his friends get to be like. calm down dude you can cowrite the whole season nobody's taking it away from you now. We can do this right.

#writers #team free writers

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thegeminisage · 3 years

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what ARE your bottom 10 supernatural episodes? just out of curiosity. Doesn't have to be a round ten--just take this ask as blanket permission to rant about whatever eps you hated.

this is a great question and i have been wanting to write this post for so long so thank you. i managed to narrow it down to least favorite 15 episodes. it was actually really difficult to rank these. asteriks for buckleming eps; warning for mentions of sexual assault. (i am not including s15 eps on this list because i forgot basically all of s15 and i haven’t gotten back to it on my rewatch yet but rest assured i hate the finale with all my blackened heart.)

#15: 1.08 Bugs - this one is fine actually writing wise like it’s not the best season 1 episode the “monster” was stupid and there was typical supernatural racism but i never mind more sam content. unfortunately i have a deep, paralyzing fear of all things in the bug family. i have only watched this one 2 times - once on my first watch thru, and again when i got my brother and his then-gf to watch it

#14: 14.13 Lebanon - i don’t know about you guys but i feel like i have already covered that topic on this blog :’) nonetheless some things about it do make me nuts in the good way. s4 cas, john/mary reunion, queer i have a family, dean almost showing self esteem. yk.

#13: 4.13 After School Special - some mixed feelings about this actually. it’s SO nice to see sam and dean as kids/teens, i always love a good colin morgan ep, but i fucking hate high school in media and also the moral of this story seemed to be “ah we ALL had a rough time in school, bullies are just misunderstood!” which like. no they aren’t. die. it just ruins the whole thing for me. also dean being like that about underage girls is disgusting WHO thought that was okay

#12: 8.05 Blood Brother - i have mixed feelings about this one too. like i like benny well enough and i love his and dean’s dynamic but they made sam seem SO UNREASONABLE for being upset dean was hanging out with a vamp when i think after dean’s hissy fit about ruby sam deserved to behead benny on sight. just another case of the narrative ALWAYS agreeing with dean at the expense of the development of other characters and continuity itself. it’s just sam and dean fighting and fighting and fighting and BITCHING at each other constantly which is a lot of what i really loathe about season 8. like i just want both of them to shut up the entire season long. also the fact that like benny let dean kill his gf because she had become ugly and monstrous to him...i feel bad for benny but it made it hard to like him after that. like theeee misogyny.

#11: 5.12 Swap Meat - if you weren’t in fandom in 2010 you CANNOT know how high the demand for a body swap episode was. everyone wanted to see sam and dean swap bodies and play each other. it would have been hilarious, it had the potential to be sad (imagine dean having to experience sam’s demon blood cravings or sam realizing dean holds his liquor WAY too well). the potential: huge. the fanfics: numerous. and then they give it to us...and it’s sam and the lamest most boring teenager ever to exist. this needless violation of sam’s bodily autonomy (cuz the kid had sex in his body!) to make him the butt of the joke, and a lot of bad unfunny humor (no more poop jokes please god)...all for the kid to get one cool moment where he finishes the exorcism with dean. i don’t want him to get a cool moment because i fucking hate him. what was even the point of any of this. like it’s INSULTING. i’d rather they not made it at all.

#10: 10.09 The Things We Left Behind / &10.10 The Hunter Games - i have a whole tag for how much i hated these episodes.

#9: *12.08 LOTUS - i just think it is SO stupid that we wanted to give lucifer a redemption arc to begin with but ESPECIALLY by having him POSSESS the tr*mp stand-in and have sex with his secretary or whatever like that’s rape on two counts, by possession and by deception. like i don’t think supernatural should attempt political commentary at all ever either and you can tell this season was written with politics in mind. like they were writing it during 2016 and a great deal of it was written after the 2016 election and like. when half your writers room and audience are republicans. it just went over like a lead balloon. particularly fucking hated the clumsy and offensive comparison of the bmol to, like, maga. that was bad. but anyway their shitty half-accidental political commentary (which never addressed the whole genocide issue??? hello???) got started here and this was definitely one of the most cringeworthy episodes.

#8: 12.05 The One You've Been Waiting For - (warning for discussions of hitler & nazis) i just feel like we shouldn’t be re-animating hitler on supernatural. like i don’t think supernatural has the subtle touch needed to tactfully cover “zombie hitler.” you know like i’m not jewish maybe i’ve got it wrong but that just feels offensively bad to me. if sam and dean had actually been canonically jewish in a way the narrative acknowledged that might have ruled but as it is it’s two non jewish dudes boasting about how cool they are for killing hitler and letting a NAZI walk because they figure the other nazis will kill him. like, holy shit, if you can gun down zombie hitler and pat yourself on the back for being a hero you need to go ahead and take care of the other ones too!!! it was just. so cringeworthy. (edit: i got an ask about this here that link’s to op’s post that covers it much better than i ever could.)

#7: *12.21 There's Something About Mary - i DON’T like how joining the bmol is like, oh it’s a cult, oh you’ll get brainwashed, oh it’s no longer your fault if you do horrible things. people who join maga are innocent victims they didn’t know how bad it was all they wanted was monster genocide which is fine because monsters aren’t real people :) anyway i also don’t like seeing mary tortured needlessly because i stan her, i don’t like seeing ketch at all bc he’s my least favorite spn character and i ESPECIALLY don’t like seeing him smug. the fight scene near the end of that episode fucking rules though. and they also played the family theme in minor chord during the final scene which is like. ok. points made.

#6: *10.21 Dark Dynasty - charlie. and it wasn’t even a good death it was the most contrived forced bullshit...other people have said it better but like. charlie.

#5: 9.05 Dog Dean Afternoon - dean dead ass wanted to fuck that poodle. like i can’t say any more than that. also this episode introduced the FALSE canon that dean is allergic to cats - until now we’ve seen him be around cats many times (3.03, 4.06, 8.08) with NO issue. like dean canonically doesn’t LIKE dogs and he hung out with one/as one this entire episode because nobody in carver’s writing room can be bothered to remember continuity. and then fandom took this as oh dean hates cats because he’s allergic and he likes dogs he would totally adopt that FUCKING DOG FROM 15.19 THAT BUCKLEMING CREATED like this sends me into a blind rage every time. people who like this ep don’t respect herstory and they don’t respect ME

#4: *9.03 I'm No Angel - i don’t want to talk about it we don’t acknowledge 9.03 in this house

#3: 14.17 Game Night / 14.18 Absence - i did quite literally ragequit when mary died and i think it was CRUEL to show her death offscreen and then make us wait a week thinking maybe she survived and then at the end of that week tease her resurrection for the ENTIRE episode after that like...i get that the general audience hated mary but holy shit that was almost as bad as the cas baiting in 15.19. like that’s how 14.18 made me feel.

#2: 7.08 Season Seven, Time For A Wedding! - the thing i remember most about this episode is that i was watching it live in a chatroom with a group of friends from livejournal. and when sam, a rape survivor in canon, after the huge season-long deal they made of his hell trauma, woke up with no pants tied to a bed for LAUGHS, someone in our group, and actual rape survivor in real life, got triggered and had to stop watching and go outside. like the internet ruined the word triggered but you know?? and like. this was supposed to be funny. i can’t even get mad about like...i have my usual anti-becky agenda but that pales in comparison w/ the insult dealt to sam and rape survivors in general. but it’s funny when it’s a woman and a man, right?!?!?

#1: 9.13 The Purge - i don’t want to talk about this one extensively either but like it’s 40 minutes of fatphobia start to finish and it made me feel REALLY shitty and upset like i felt bad about myself for weeks after it aired and i still haven’t totally warmed up to donna - whenever they show her eating i like her less. the actors in it weren’t even fat donna’s actress was like a very hot and skinny pregnant woman! like it was so toxic and awful. this is the only episode i’ve only seen one time and i’m never EVER watching it again. nicole snyder can die by my hand.

honorable mentions, in chronological order:

*1.13 Route 666 (love and light cassie is great but she alone cannot save this episode this was buckleming’s first and it should have been their last)

3.06 Red Sky At Morning (sam and the gilf)

5.09 The Real Ghostbusters (becky.)

5.11 Sam, Interrupted (i can't even go into it i'd need a whole new post but wow this almost made the bottom 15 list. short version sams anger issues only get brought up when people remember them and also i hate mental hospitals and also the stereotypes in this show are always offensively bad but those were REALLY bad)

6.15 The French Mistake (sorry it’s just too much about the actors like love and light but i don’t care)

*7.05 Shut Up, Dr. Phil (buffy cast WASTED on a fucking BUCKLEMING episode)

8.06 Southern Comfort (i'm from the south and i’m allergic to civil war content if you were from here you’d understand)

*8.15 Man’s Best Friends With Benefits (please ENOUGH bestiality jokes i am NO longer asking like what is WRONG with buckleming)

8.16 Remember The Titans (rick riordian should have written this and then maybe it wouldn't SUCK the disrespect to artemis counts as aphobia i think and i’m only half joking)

8.22 Clip Show (rip sarah, they killed her and for What)

9.08 Rock and a Hard Place (literally what the FUCJ)

*9.09 Holy Terror (rip KEVIN the fact that buckleming killed him and charlie AND eileen...)

9.15 #thinman (boring and a paper-thin metaphor and also not the end i would have wanted for these characters)

10.05 Fan Fiction (sigh. you know)

10.06 Ask Jeeves (STOP making old women grope sam for laughs he is a RAPE SURVIVOR it wasn't funny in 3.06 either. also the bobby backstory in this was extremely unflattering and felt ooc)

11.22 We Happy Few (even jarpad was right to be mad about this one yeah i said it and i’d say it again)

12.14 The Raid (ha ha genocide is fun kids!)

*12.17 The British Invasion (wow i don't care about any of the bmol at all not even mick like rest in pieces you genocidal shithead i can’t believe they had the nerve to put beautiful perfect wonderful eileen in such a bad episode)

12.20 Twigs & Twine & Tasha Banes (THEY KILLED ALICIA??? this is the only yockey episode i don't like i guess nobody’s perfect)

*13.13 Devil’s Bargain (danneel deserved better than to star in buckleming’s lucifer redemption arc fantasy)

*13.18 Bring ‘em Back Alive (SABRIEL QUEERBAIT LMAO)

& all the other buckleming episodes i forgot to list, though unfortunately there are some exceptions

[spn masterpost]

#liz answers asks #anonymous #liz's spn stuff #liz watches spn #long post #theee way my list is skewed so heavily towards 9-12 #FUCK the carver era #it's weird bc 12 is a dabb season but feels like a carver season #and 11 is a carver season but feels like a dabb season #mary and the jack plot are 12's only redeeming features #and even those have lots of bad moments #but definitely my least favorite will always be 9

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captain-sodapop · 2 years

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One of Supernatural's biggest problems in its later seasons has to do with pacing and focus. The earlier seasons were much tighter and had a much stronger focus, and I think that's in part because the show did a good job of prioritizing its protagonist (Sam, always Sam, even when they try to put more focus on Dean, it's Sam). I love MOTW episodes, and even though the show always had an overall story arc each season (finding Dad, special children and killing Azazel, Dean's deal, Sam's powers, the Apocalypse), the MOTW episodes felt like they mattered because we were seeing Sam and Dean at work, getting a sense of their world and who they are as characters and as people within that world. They were treated with more care and purpose, and I know part of it is that Sam and Dean learn more over the years so there's less of a discovery phase for them, but I think about all the possible stories Kripke outlined before the show even started, and think about all the possible jobs - ghost hunts especially - they could have gone on.

Later seasons become mired in mythology and misery. Many MOTW episodes just feel like filler for their too-big, almost heartless mytharcs (seasons 14 and 15 are the worst for this, but we can see it starting to happen especially in season 10. Season 9 manages OK because Sam is in the forefront for the first half of the season.) Character and continuity are traded for big, heavy plots that are especially hard to care about in seasons 9 and 10. Too much Heaven, too much Hell politics, too many angels and demons. They put Dean in the forefront, but episodes feel unanchored. Sam is the anchor of the show because of his role, and when he's not the focus, everything gets muddled. Dean can't carry that weight, no matter that he himself is a complex character. It's not his job, and I can feel Sam trying to push in from the periphery.

I'm at the end of season 10, and THANK GOD, because not only are the last few episodes hell and watching Charlie and the Styne kid needlessly die is just...miserable, but I know that from the beginning of season 11, Sam steps in and says "ok fuck this I'm taking the reigns back." I know season 11 is the end of Carver's turn as showrunner before Dabb, but I feel like the last third of the show mostly remembers that this is Sam's story. It lets him be a bit of a freak again! He starts to assert his voice more! I think the damage is sort of done in the writer's room if we're talking about them still sort of favoring Dean's perspective on issues, but the show itself does seem to remember after seasons 9 and 10 that this is Sam's story and he needs to take an active part in it. As I look forward to the last third of the story and my rewatch, I'm looking forward to seeing him step up once again, to see characters like Eileen and Rowena and Jack and Mary and the Waywards, etc. start to fill in parts of his world, and to see how he steers us towards the end of his story.

#spn #supernatural #spn meta #spn critical #sam winchester #dean winchester #abby speaks

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castiellesbian · 3 years

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i feel like i need a glossary of terms or a contact list for all these people involved with the show. i have shit memory and dont pay attention to the credits who is sera (sara??) and why does everyone hate her!! why is he Bobo!!!!!! please... has anyone posted about this im desperate

lol well including everyone involved with the show would be difficult, but I’ll give you some highlights

Eric Kripke: creator of Supernatural, showrunner for seasons 1-5. People have differing opinions about him but general people enjoyed his run and he’s considered the best showrunner in the series overall. Not much to say because there’s a lot to say lmao (notable episodes: “Pilot,” “Lazarus Rising,” and “Swan Song”)

Sera Gamble: writer who was involved from the beginning of the show, became showrunner after Kripke left. Her seasons, 6 and 7, are typically regarded as the weakest seasons. She was a huge brothers-only supporter, and was responsible for Misha being written out of the show (as well as Jim Beaver, Bobby) in order to get the show to just be about the brothers again. There’s a lot of drama regarding her treatment of Misha/Cas, but more recently she’s known for the Magicians debacle, a horrendous example of the Bury Your Gays trope. She’s also involved with (the showrunner of?) You on Netflix. She was a pretty good writer, but overall fans dislike her because of her showrunning tenure (notable episodes: “Faith” with Raelle Tucker, “Death’s Door,” “The Born-Again Identity”)

Jeremy Carver: writer from season 3 that was promoted to showrunner from seasons 8 through.... some time in 12, the timeline has been a little murky to me. He was the one who brought Cas back into the main plot, as well as allowing the deancas storyline to become genuine subtext (we can argue whether it was queerbaiting or what he was intending to do if he had been running the series finale, but yeah). Unfortunately, he was also the showrunner when Charlie was killed off brutally, which dampens his legacy. People are conflicted about his seasons, but generally he’s looked upon favorably (not related, but the picture that comes up when you search him on google is NOT him, he’s really like a typical white nerdy looking dude lol) (notable episodes: “The Rapture,” “Sacrifice,” “Do You Believe in Miracles?”)

Andrew Dabb: writer from season 4, promoted to showrunner during season 12 and is the last showrunner of Supernatural (he wrote the finale). He was well-liked by deancas fans for awhile because of how much screentime they were allowed to give, and because of the focus on extended/found family. Sam and Dean only fans didn’t like him for the same reasons. Unfortunately, HIS legacy has been marred by the awful series finale, though it’s debated whether that was his fault or because of network meddling. (notable episodes: “Dark Side of the Moon” with Daniel Loflin, “The Prisoner,” “Moriah”)

Robert Singer: executive producer since the beginning of the show (he’s also co-showrunner throughout Supernatural, but I don’t think he typically was involved with the plotlines too often). He’s directed quite a few episodes, including the infamous wire fight episode (s13 finale) as well as the series finale. Married to Eugenie Ross-Leming, writer of the show

Eugenie Ross-Leming/Brad Buckner: writing partners TECHNICALLY from season 1, but they only wrote one episode until they were brought back in season 7. They are regarded as the worst writers in all of Supernatural, responsible for tactless death scenes of fan-favorites (and typically minorities) like Kevin, Charlie, and Eileen. They also feature a gross amount of dubcon/noncon, racism, weird unnecessary sex stuff, and are SUPER into Lucifer for some unknown reason (they have a crush on Mark Pellegrino I guess). They’re also just kind of bad writers in general, their pacing is weird and their plots convoluted. To be fair, though, they have written some good moments, like Dean trying to reach Cas in Hell’s Angel and Dean’s confessional scene in Paint It Black. But overall, they suck. Why are they still on the show even though BOTH sides of the fandom (who never agree on ANYTHING) dislike them? Well, because Eugenie is married to Singer. Nepotism. (notable episodes, the ones I can stand to watch lmao: “Holy Terror,” “Hell’s Angel,” “Our Father Who Aren’t in Heaven”)

Ben Edlund: writer from season 2 who left after season 8, but people STILL talk about him simply because he is arguably the strongest writer of the series. Cas fans particularly like him because he did most of the heavy-lifting regarding Cas’ characterization. He also wrote the famous bi!Dean scene with Aaron in season 8, where Dean is flustered after being flirted with. (notable episodes: “On the Head of a Pin,” “The French Mistake,” and my all-time favorite “The Man Who Would Be King”)

Robert “Bobo” Berens: writer from season 9, his first episode was “Heaven Can’t Wait,” which is all you really need to know about his influence on the deancas storyline. He’s also gay, so people particularly enjoy seeing how he approaches destiel in his episodes since it’s not just another straight guy potentially just catering to fans. He was also the one who was meant to go off and run Wayward Sisters, and is responsible for a lot of their development in recent seasons. I believe he also created Rowena? He wrote the episode this season where Cas confesses his love to Dean (along with other heavy deancas episodes like “The Trap”). Sam fans typically don’t like him because he doesn’t give him much focus. (notable episodes: “Heaven Can’t Wait,” “Who We Are,” “Wayward Sisters” with Andrew Dabb)

Steve Yockey: writer from season 12 through the beginning of season 15. Also gay, and also responsible for deancas moments in recent years. Generally loved for his deancas subtext but ALSO because he is an amazing writer who came out with iconic episodes. (notable episodes: “Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox,” “Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets,” “Peace of Mind” with Meghan Fitzmartin)

Robbie Thompson: writer from seasons 7 through 11, and wrote some fan favorite episodes in the meantime. He is also the creator of fan favorite characters like Charlie and Eileen. He was also one of the few writers who was vocally supportive of destiel during his tenure rather than just later. I’m not implying anything about his intentions, but it was validating for him to encourage fans during a time where most of the cast/crew ignored or actively dismissed it. Plus his episodes are just fun! (notable episodes: “LARP and the Real Girl,” “Fan Fiction,” “Baby”)

Meredith Glynn: writer since season 12, has worked closely with Bobo during their seasons together. She and Bobo cowrote “The Future,” which is the mixtape episode, so she has been taken in by deancas fans haha. She also wrote the episode where Cas makes the deal with the Empty, so it’s pretty safe to say she and Bobo had worked on the deancas plotline together :) She’s also liked some deancas-related tweets on twitter, so she’s being subtly supportive (notable episodes: “Regarding Dean,” “The Future” with Robert Berens, “Byzantium”)

Davy Perez: writer since season 12 (a lot of the ones I’ve mentioned are, since this is when Dabb became showrunner and made changes in the writers room). His episodes tend to either be horror or bizarre. I mention him because he’s responsible for episodes like “Stuck in the Middle (With You)” (Cas’ first “I love you”) and “Tombstone” (aka Brokebacknatural lmao). I don’t know much about him otherwise, but that’s why he’s brought up usually (notable episodes: “Stuck in the Middle (With You),” “Tombstone,” “Atomic Monsters”)

hopefully this helps, and hopefully I didn’t forget about anyone major. There have been a LOT of people behind the scenes so it’s hard to say who to include. Like, I didn’t mention Jerry Wanek, Jim Michaels, Kim Manners, Thomas J. Wright, or others who might be mentioned from time to time.

#Anonymous #long post

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deanwasalwaysbi · 3 years

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I've gotta say, I find the concept of Bedlund trying to Ben-Hur Jensen absolutely hysterical. I'm just imagining Jensen getting a script and being like "Ben?? What's this? Is this gay? This seems gay????" and Ben just soothing him like a frightened horse.

Hahaha - Look it wouldn't be the first time. What is this verb we're working with? Okay. Strap in everyone. The Multi-Oscar-winning 1959 movie 'Ben Hur' had a bunch of gay subtext. The writer, the director, and the second lead actor all knew that Charlton Heston's character, Ben Hur, was gay. However, one person didn't find out until the 1990s: Charlton Heston. The consensus on set was "Don’t tell Charlton, because he’ll freak out." and when Heston found out in the ninties, freak out was exactly what he did. (x) [the movie may have gotten a reference from Misha back in season 6 (x)]

Whether this happened with Jensen on SPN depends on two things.

Was the character of Dean intentionally written as Bi and, if so, at what point did that become true?

Did anyone tell Jensen? Did he figure it out? if so, when?

I personally DO believe at this point, I really do, that Bedlund - Ben Hur'd Jensen. I think it was part of the writers room but not all of it, until it was. (Which RN I believe finally happened under Dabb.) I think Jensen wasn't in on it, until he was. So for me? I think he really was in the dark at one point. But at what point that changed? Probably only he can answer that question. and RN? He ain't talking.

In the meantime we can only look at things Jensen has said on the subject - Like this unbearably ambiguous GIF set from @nikadd. Was this tongue in cheek? Legitimate ignorance? You're killing me, Jensen. That cheeky lil smile, Jensen. Nvm - I'm going to kill you instead. It's for my own survival. No hard feelings right? You understand.

UH OH HERE COMES A CUT TO HIDE A LONG DERANGED POST...

We can look at the text for number 1 - and I do that uh - a lot - see the blog name #Dean Was Always Bi

For number 2 we can look over some points when we got clues from what Jensen thought was going on [regardless of whether they make sense based on his jacting or directorial choices I guess] and get left wondering whether at any point he felt pressured to lie for his career, for self protection, or to protect the narrative from the network:

2010 - 'We're missing the gay angel' (x) (Season 5 gag reel) (x) “Sorry man, not what the show’s about.” Jared: One of the good and bads about playing the straight [non-comedic] character on the show… Jensen: What wait? I’ve been playing him so wrong

2012 / S8 - Trenchcoat - Jensen talking about how sometimes they change the lines because they're way too gay. Calls Cas a third brother

2012 - "What's Destiel?" Ben Edlund: That’s some weird shit. Jensen: Is this something that you created, Ben? Ben: You don’t want any part of that.

“Don’t ruin it for everyone now” “I still don’t know what the question was. I’m going to pretend I don’t know what the question was.”

2013 @ JIB, re Dean’s reaction to Aaron’s flirting in the season 8 episode Everybody Hates Hitler, (x)

“And the scene wasn’t written to be that kind of - I mean - It was written to be awkward. Ben Edlund wrote the - my favorite line in that scene was ‘carry on . citizen’ that was - I almost couldn’t say that with a straight face I was laughing so hard. But it was - you know - it was comedy. It was a comedic moment in the show and fortunately Dean gets a lot of the comedic moments in the show and it was just, you know, Ben was poking fun at the fact that - you know, how can we make this very kind of manly, heterosexual guy uncomfortable - uh -you know, or or have him back on his heels and throw him off his game a little bit.”

The thing is - Bedlund and Phil Sgriccia made very clear on the commentary track that THEY saw this scene as a 'romantic comedy kind of fluster' "This potential for love in all places."

Ben Edlund calling the writer’s room a boy’s club in 2013 (x)

Misha Collins telling Destiel fans they aren’t Crazy in 2013 after some executives said they were (x).

2014 Jensen says he was glad there wasn’t much Dean and Cas in season 9 - HA Hah HAH (x)

“I think the whole Cas and Dean thing has gotten out of hand” “I don’t think there’s anything secret to their relationship even though a lot of people wish there was” REMINDER - that season we got the nightstands acknowledgement and “play him like a jilted lover” and the “he dumped me James” cut and -

I certainly know that Misha and I don’t play that. SIGH. they Ben Hur'd Jensen.

2014 - the fan fiction joke - 10.05

“I didn’t have a positive reaction, The first time in I think 200 scripts I went and sat down in the showrunners office and said, ‘What in god’s name are you doing?! Why? I need to understand why this is happening.’” “[Carver] gave very eloquent answers and did a great job of explaining why we were doing what we were doing, I guess I had been aware of this ‘fan fiction’ for a while and I felt like maybe if I ignored it, it would eventually go away. When I read it in the script that is what I do for a living and is my work—I’m very protective of these characters and the story and I think we have a right to be—I wasn’t angry. I just wanted to understand why and what was the message we were ultimately sending with this script and story. By the end of it, I felt good and it gave me all the confidence I needed. It was better than I could have ever hoped.”

But then there's Jensen in 2015 talking about all of Dean’s bromances. (x) [gifs at the top] Could go either way - starting to figure it out? or No?

What had changed if anything? the entire Crowely season 10 story line? This was July 2015 - the same day as the SDCC 2015 panel where Misha talked about Destiel (x @ 13) Carver and Dabb were there -

By this time Jensen and Misha were nominated for a teen choice award for best chemistry against various tv couples (and one ensemble cast, but the award nomination did NOT include Jared) .... Misha and Jensen would go on to WIN this award one month after the panel.

At the Panel Rob and Rich ask the question: “You two have branded yourselves as TV’s greatest team since, ... idk who.... Ernie and Bert so.” [Misha says to Jensen & Jared, half not on the microphone: “I really didn’t expect them to throw us under the bus.”] “are we going to see that continue? Is the Castiel Dean relationship still aflutter and still growing as we move into season 11?” Jeremy Carver: “Ish.” [mocking from panel ensues] “Yes. Of course. I mean Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. There’s no doubt.”

Jensen Directs 11x03 and the choreo mimics Goodbye stranger (x)

2016 - Jensen: Dean could have a huntress, but you’d kill her.

Jan 2017 Con the infamous - no hedge - harsh - “Destiel doesn’t exist.” (x)

I would hope that if he knew he wouldn’t have been so harsh with it. So by that point either he still didn’t know - OR - to him ‘Destiel’ was specifically about internet porn/sex and not like - the potential for feelings / a relationship. It makes me think about something Misha had actually said, around 2013, “It’s called ‘Destiel’ and it’s about the romantic interludes between Dean and Castiel.” (x)

2017 - jib8 Jensen called Dean a lover of the ladies

May 2017 - After filming the end of season 12:

2018 - Misha confirms he and Jensen have talked about Destiel (x) - also 2018: The Bisexual Dean essay "? No." (Oh god was this really this recent?! I can't deal with this.)

Well. SOMETHING happened in 2019. cuz here it comes

2019 - "Dean has no taste, clearly." 2019 - 'So, tell us just a little bit about what you're most excited to tackle with your character this final season.' "Cas. Just like a full football form tackle."

Look at this face he gave Dean when Cas told him he loved him and tell me he wasn't playing into it here. You can't. (x)

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sortasirius · 4 years

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what makes you think the writers want deancas? not trying to be an asshole, i'm just genuinely curious as to why you think that. i know berens' episodes are pretty heavy with subtext so i can see why you'd say that he wants it, but i'm not so sure about the rest of the writers/dabb. it seems like meghan isn't a huge fan either, given her "they twisted it so fast" tweet :/ of course she's a very new writer (think she's only writing one ep this season?) but still

OKAY this is a great question, welcome to my dissertation.

I’m going to address the end of your question first. Meghan is actually DeanCas positive, she has been for quite a long time. She actually, a few years back, posted a picture of her reading a literal book about Destiel and captioned it “writing reading” or something like that.

This whole thing just comes out of a boiling over of tensions because of how nasty fandom twitter can be. Like I said here, I think this has just gotten blown out of proportion, they shouldn’t have posted all this randomly disparaging stuff, but also like...can you blame them? The fandom is a lot, we always have been, and they’re probably also under a gag order not to talk about the finale, and are annoyed that people keep asking.

So nah, Meg is not anti Destiel.

To the first part!! So let’s take a look at the show runners since Cas has been around.

Seasons 4 and 5: Kripke

Seasons 6 and 7: Gamble

Seasons 8-11ish: Carver

Seasons 11ish-15: Dabb

So starting with Kripke. Okay, yes, I will be the first to admit that we have some pretty incredible Destiel moments in these seasons, but it’s less directly written into the plot and much more from Misha and Jensen’s uhhhh ~chemistry~. The only times it was directly written into the script was when the episode was handled by someone like Edlund (“On The Head Of A Pin,” “The End,” “My Bloody Valentine”). And you have to remember, if in season 5, there are moments here and there where you’re like huh that’s suspiciously romantic dialogue, remember that Cas took Anna’s place. Anna was supposed to be endgame for Dean, but due to a myriad of issues and Misha’s general greatness, Anna was replaced with Cas.

Onto 6 and 7. Hmmm. Gamble. 6 and 7 are my two least favorite seasons and that’s no secret, and that’s not only due to the plain old weird shit in the overall storyline, but also that homegirl killed off Cas in s7 and then Bobby like four episodes later. (Also it ALWAYS rubbed me the wrong way they couldn’t have Baby in that season lol). We still had some great DeanCas moments, but again, it wasn’t really written into the overall arc (until they had to change the end of season 7 because of tanking ratings and bring Misha back lol, anyone remember the fact that Dean kept Cas’ jacket and would randomly dream of him? Yeah.). But we still had those moments, those distinctly romantic moments, probably the best example in these two seasons is from Edlund again, specifically “The Man Who Would be King,” I wrote a little about that here.

We move onto Carver, who gave us, at this point, the most overt DeanCas season with season 8 (season gr8 is a better name imo), and this is the first time Dean and Cas’ relationship is directly written as an arc of the season. I mean, you have everything in Purgatory, Dean “seeing” Cas everywhere, the fact that he felt so guilty that Cas stayed in Purgatory that he manipulated his own memories to think that he was the one that failed Cas, because he couldn’t comprehend that Cas would want to leave him, and let’s not forget Dean snapping Cas out of Naomi’s hold on him in “Goodbye Stranger.” It was a very obvious shift, not enough to alert the general audience, but more than enough for most of us in fandom.

It’s also important to note that this is when Andrew stopped co writing with Loflin and started writing his own episodes (”Hunter Heroici” anyone?) I like Loflin fine, but Dabb was able to stretch his legs a little bit more once he stopped co-writing, and we also began to see some DeanCas themes in his solo episodes.

In any case, them and their issues being a big part of the seasons continued with Carver, and Berens entered the scene, his first episode (”Heaven Can’t Wait”) is one of my favorites, with human Cas and the fanfiction gap and Dean and Cas just generally being awkward and funny and sweet. This is Bobo’s FIRST episode, remember that. He comes right out of the gate with it.

Also in Season 9, this is when Dean takes the Mark of Cain, and the Cas/Colette mirror is born, so obviously, Dean and Cas are the fabric of the season once again. This is also the season where Metatron says Cas is “in love with humanity,” and then immediately refers to Dean as Humanity so uhhhh yeah.

Onto season 10, Dabb and Berens continue with their greatness (I could write pages on the DeanCas date in “The Things We Left Behind” alone). And then we have one of the best scenes in the entire show in “The Prisoner” where the Cas/Colette mirror continues and Dean, driven by grief and pain and rage and the Mark, still doesn’t kill Cas. He still can’t kill Cas.

Season 11 is important because it takes choice away from both Cas and Dean, and shows us, as the audience, how much losing each other takes out of them. We saw in season 10 how much losing Dean takes from Cas, but what about Cas losing Dean? Dean loses his choice with his connection to Amara this season, and loses even more when Lucifer reveals he’s been possessing Cas, and plays on Dean’s connection to Cas like a mockery. It’s also worth noting that, similarly to season 8, Dean breaks out of the connection with Amara when he’s worried about Cas, and that’s something that even SHE is surprised by.

But then season 12, the beginning to the Renaissance. This is when we get the writer’s that become important for what Dean and Cas are today, and, truly, why I believe they want canon Destiel as much as we do.

This is the first season with Dabb’s writers: Davy Perez, Meredith Glynn, Steve Yockey, and of course Bobo all come in with their incredible talents and gave us episode after episode of good content. “Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets” is probably my favorite, probably the best example of what I’m saying. An episode where Dean is called out by an enemy directly, told to “roll the dice” on Cas’ life. And Dean won’t, it’s not even really a hesitation. And this comes from a character that has known Dean for ten seconds. I also wrote more in depth about this episode here. There are also some.....distinctly domestic details we get this season, specifically in “The Future” (written by Berens and Glynn) with the mixtape. The most tropey of tropes mixtape. Yeah, I’ll just leave that one here.

And then season 12 ends with Cas’ death, but also with the parallel between Sam and Dean with Jess and Cas. Sam literally has to drag Dean away from Cas, just like Dean had to drag Sam out of his burning apartment in the pilot. The episode drives it home in every way that it can: Dean is the one left kneeling by Cas’ body, while Sam goes to find out what is upstairs. Dean is the one who stares at the sky, finally broken. This isn’t a random thing, this is Dean’s whole arc, it’s the entirety of the beginning of 13. Dean’s pain, his anguish, his anger.

Season 13 starts with them burning Cas, with Dean, who has begged God to bring him back, who has split his knuckles punching a door, standing, staring at Cas’ pyre with brokenness on his face.

I mean.....

Anyway, season 13 is where it gets interesting (well, I think all of this is interesting but I’m a writer nerd so). So Cas comes back from the Empty in “Advanced Thanatology” written by Steve Yockey, and then a wombo combo of “Tombstone” by Davy Perez next (”Brokebacknatural” as the PR said at the time). Listen. This is the part that SPN crossed a line that they couldn’t come back from. With Cas being Dean’s “big win,” the fact that Dean and Cas watch movies together, “I told you, he’s an angry sleeper. Like a bear.” Talked about it here.

This is where, in my opinion, the network stepped in, but the damage was already done. They had already established that Cas was Dean’s big win, that Dean’s poor coping was not due to Mary’s disappearance, but solely due to Cas, and that Dean and Cas have more married energy than anyone else. The network had nixed blatant canon at this point, and they writing room had been pushing the boundaries of what the network would allow.

After these episodes, we see a marked drop off of DeanCas heavy scenes. They’re still there, still a part of the fabric of the season, but not as...obvious as it had been in early season 13.

And this continued through season 14, we’re back to scraps of Destiel scenes here and there, but to me it always felt like there was something bubbling under the surface, something distinctly unsaid in the themes of the season, even after the walk back of obvious “Dean and Cas are in love” scenes.

And then we get to season 15, which, y’all know I talk about all the time. What’s important here is that Bobo and Glynn are both executive producers, calling more of the shots than ever before. Additionally, it’s important to note that, though they only co write occasionally, Glynn and Berens refer to each other as “work husband” and “work wife.” Each episode has just turned up the volume, and, not for the first time, but certainly the most obvious, Dean and Cas ARE the season. Sure, they’re trying to beat God, they’re trying to finally find peace, defeat the final big bad, but really? This season has been about Dean, and Dean’s relationship to Cas.

And not only do we have obvious and clear Destiel in nearly every episode, but we have episodes like “Last Call” which canonize bi!Dean (wrote about that here).

And, maybe most importantly so far, we have “The Rupture,” the breakup, and “The Trap,” Dean’s confession (both written by Berens). And here’s the thing. These episodes feel connected, but also feel like they’re missing something. Beren’s last episode is 15x18, “The Truth.” We’ve all spec’ed about what could happen in this episode, and I think *I* know what it’s leading to. But for it to be leading to that, it means that the network has to have approved what we’ve all been waiting for years for.

Who got this change to happen? Who got the network to change their minds? It wasn’t us. It was them. I am fully convinced that Dabb and Berens quite literally put their careers on the line for Dean and Cas. They believe in them, they’ve shown that from the beginning, but the only thing standing in the way was the network, never allowing them to take the final step.

So, to answer your question: I think the writers want canon DeanCas because they’ve already shown us that they do. Take a look at their episodes, at Dabb’s, at Beren’s, at Glynn’s, at Perez’s, at Yockey’s. They’ve been telling us what’s going on with Dean and Cas for years.

Sure, I’m not in their heads, I guess I don’t know for *sure* that this has been their thought process, but if we put it all together, from the marked shift when Dabb fully took over in s12, to the change right after “Tombstone,” to the new shift, the blatantly romantic shift in season 15, what else is there?

I’ve said for a long time that we, the SPN fandom, are beyond lucky to have the writer’s that we do. They’re all going to go on to have prolific careers and we were lucky to get them at the end of our little show. I give them a lot of credit for what we have in the show today.

Just remember, they’ve been telling us in all of s15 who Chuck is. He says he’s the writer, right? But a writer who doesn’t have control of his characters? A writer who wants to do the same ending over and over because it “works”? That doesn’t sound like a writer, it sounds like a network exec.

They’ve been showing us what they want for years, and the way s15 is going? I think they may have convinced the network to let us have it.

#supernatural #destiel #spn #my writing #anyway yeah i love these writers #welcome to my essay lmao #spn writers #anonymous #lilly answers

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agusvedder · 3 years

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How season 11 outlined the romantic endgames.

I understand fear of disappointment, I understand, believe me. But this season (along with all the Dabb and Carver era) pointed out perfectly and outlined the romantic endgames for our boys, and the obstacles.

Endgames? Found family, Sam with Eileen, Dean with Cas. Freedom. Peace.

Obstacles? Their own inhability of moving on, of changing, of acknowledging traumas and pain, and healing. Chuck.

As I pointed out on a different post about Season’s 13 THE ROAD SO FAR, they decided to use “Nothing else matters” to start the whole season. In the moment Hetfield sings “Forever trust in who we are” we see Sam hugging Eileen and Dean hugging Cas.

Ring any bells?

I think that speaks for itself. At that specific moment of the show Eileen was dead, and Cas too.

Why would they ‘show us Eileen in season 13′s opening if they didn’t plan on bringing her back later? Same with Cas?

(Eileen was gone until the last minute of episode 19, that Jack bring her, and everybody, back...)

FOREVER TRUST IN WHO WE ARE.

Forever is just the future word for ALWAYS.

They were ALWAYS real. Always.

(btw, I will NEVER stop talking about that road so far cause I love Metallica and ir brings me to tears)

On a season where the most important thing is what’s real and what’s not they decided to canonize both couples. Bring Eileen back from the dead, finally use Cas’s empty plot to show us that his happiness is loving Dean inconditionally.

An amazing example of how Season 11 outlined the endgames is one of my favorites: “Into The Mystic”. They introduced Eileen on an episode where Castiel was possessed by Lucifer, pretending to be Cas to talk to Dean.

Too many bells, halp.-

(HEHEHE! pain is my middle name)

In that episode we meet Sam Winchester’s perfect woman, badass, smart, planning to go to law school, lost her parents when she was a baby too, and she’s a MOL legacy.

(Dude, first episode with her! THOSE HEART EYES!)

But this . . . this.

Ring another bell?

“What the hell are you talking about, man?”

(That’s what I thought you’d say, you dumb fucking Dean)

At the end of the episode, Dean was left with a burning desire of following his heart and the pressing matter that he’s pining for someone (who’s not Amara, like he said in that same episode, he’s not in love with her), and we see Sam saving a pamphlet of the retirement home, showing us he still sees that light at the end of the tunnel.

It’s made clear Dean was frustrated by the whole Amara situation but also seeing Cas not giving a fuck about it, not feeling the slight sign of jealousy, saying his bond with Amara is a good thing that can help them draw her out aka using him as bait.

In the end of this very same episode Sam apologizes to Dean for not searching for him when he was in purgatory (4 years later!!) and Dean shrugs him off cause that’s not really important for him anymore. What’s important for both of them is what happened during purgatory. Dean searched for Cas inceasently, praying to him every night, refusing to leave without him, and willing to die to get him out of there. In that very same moment, Sam gave up hunting to stay with the woman he loved (and a dog!!). He literally gave up, he wanted retirement. The same thing Mildred talked about with Dean in Into The Mystic. Just like Dean wanted it on season 13′s finale.

To be honest, we can clearly see how Sam was certain of what he wanted for his future way before Dean did. That’s why he stayed with Amelia in season 8, that’s why he asked his brother 7 episodes before meeting Eileen if he ever thought about settling down with “someone who gets the life”. why he tried to give his number to “Piper” on that same episode. He’s been ready for settling down with someone for years now. And now he has his finally ever after with Eileen cause Chuck’s finally out the board.

Dean on the other side is so repressed with his feelings and wants that well, he cannot allow himself to let the sun shine on his face, and finally “Being”... finally “Say It”.

What convinces me that Cas is coming back for a last episode, is that he’s the first step for Dean to accept what he wants for his future, he’s the only one who’s left for Dean to take the decision of being finally happy. He’s a constant in Dean’s life, and Dean loves Cas just as much as Cas loves Dean. He cannot function without Cas. He’s been forever saved and changed thanks to him.

Also because he fucking deserve to end up with the man he loves so fully.

Dean’s arc is still open, Cas’s too. Sam’s not. He already have what he wanted, he can finally retire and be with the woman he love.

---

The whole plot of season 11 is connected directly to season 15. Amara, Cas’s depression and the look for his own faith/sense of purpose, Dean’s romantic conflict with Cas (He literally’s been screaming “Cas” the whole fucking season), Sam in look for what’s real and not, thinking he was talking to God when he was being manipulated by Lucifer (The gun wound that connected him to God, the visions, The Devil In The Details, a very very important episode for Sammy’s overall story), Rowena’s redeption arc, Chuck revealing he’s God. Don’t Call Me Shurley. Billie and the Empty being introduced into the storyline!

I invite you guys to watch Dabb’s era again, it’s a plethora of unanswered questions (who finally found it’s answers this season), search for the sense of self, purpose, beating depression, redemption arcs for the villains, forgiveness. Family. Family. FAMILY. FA M I L Y .

#Supernatural s15 #Supernatural s11 #Into the mystic #spn 11x11 #spn 15x18 #despair #spn 15x19 #inherit the earth #destiel #saileen #Castiel #cas winchester #dean winchester #sam winchester #Eileen leahy #endgames #destiel meta #saileen meta

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eisforeidolon · 3 years

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I love SPN & J2 and I'll always miss them but in hindsight I think I would've preferred for the show to have ended sooner or to have had limited seasons if J2 needed time off. Maybe even the British format of not having a season every year. Anything other than the mess of side characters + poor writing/production we got in the last leg. Kripke era was quality in low budget on par with shows like Buffy. S6-11 were fine. But it kept getting worse until it became hard to defend the lack of quality.

I absolutely agree. My DVD collection stops at season 11, because I personally really just don't see much point past that.

The Kripke years weren't perfect, but they were fun and pretty well focused - and the flaws were usually intentional points of redirecting and tightening the story. Gamble I think had interesting ideas and her years are filled with a lot of really solid individual episodes, but she maybe tried to change too much around too fast in terms of how to deal with mytharcs and didn't really have enough of a chance to settle in as a showrunner. I found quite a bit of Carver's era a real see-saw in terms of quality with some obvious flaws (obsession with drone-like angels, increasing retcons, contrived brother-fight plots, and arcs like demon!Dean & the MoC where it felt like they were too afraid to risk the audience's affection by letting the characters go dark enough to tell the story they seemed to want to). Yet I still found it overall pretty watchable - although only at a binge pace for a few seasons.

In comparison to Dabb's era, though? I'm trying to think of anything I'd feel was a serious loss if seasons 12-15 had never been made. The rare good episode like Regarding Dean? A few of the new supporting characters that actually fit into the world like the Banes twins? Except they were lost in a sea of haphazard plots that seemed not to have been thought through in advance, overpowered boring cardboard characters who they used the Winchesters to prop up instead of the other way around, turning hunting from a dangerous hard life into a lark for bored YAs, oodles of plot-solving McGuffins and retcons tossed about like candy even to solve MotW level issues, Eugenie's crush on Mark Pellegrino inflicting his face on us in ever more ludicrous ways, and the point at which they seemed to decide nobody actually liked Castiel for Castiel anymore, so let's not even try to give him side plots, let's just continuously make him an incompetent, gullible joke and just shove him in random scenes like a useless coat rack to keep the shippers happy. I was on the verge of no longer watching when they announced season 15 was going to be the final one because even though I still love the world and the characters, I found it just that relentlessly bad.

#anti dabbernatural #askboxery #anonymous #spn showrunner discussion

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tiktaalic · 3 years

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hi sorry i’m so confused about the different eras (bedlund, carver, etc) and i feel like im missing out on some interesting discourse, would you mind explaining the eras and their differences? i would really appreciate it!

for sure!

kripke: showrunner for seasons 1-5. supernatural definitely at its #grittiest wrt stakes, color grading, etc. still preddy silly though! yknow my man eric. starwars in truck stop america. buffy the vampire slayer without women. the x-files but Scarier.

gamble: showrunner for seasons 6-7. sera's a little infamous for what went down on the magicians, which she showran, where to my understanding there was a m/m pairing and then the deeply suicidal one permadied to save his boyfriend or sthing??? idk i didnt watch it. sera was a 27 year old woman who'd been writing on spn since s1 when she was straight out of college so she's. interesting. Sera Fact: she said her approach to showrunning is to blow shit to pieces in the season finale and figure out how to fix it if they get picked up for another season. she's definitely a fan of a) the brothers. cas i dont care about you. b) grit and tragedy. she wrote some REAL famous deanpisodes from kripke era (dead in the water) (faith) (houses of the holy) which imo is why her seasons are such a drag. like in s6 everybody's miserable. no ones having fun. cas isnt there. same w s7.

season 8 carver edlund powerhouse: i will NOT say a word against her. was she messy. was she an oopsie baby. maybe so. best time of my life though.

jeremy carver: 9-half of 11. probably my least favorite era. the whole time i was watching it i was kinda waiting for the episode to be over. yknow. this is where the swallows a fly-ism of spn starts (villains are a direct consequence of beating a previous villain). idk. its just not my fave. i hate s9 when it aired. not enough cas. this is definitely the precursor to dabbification, imo, wrt lighting, plot, and characterization. this is when sam stops getting story bc they didnt know wtf to do in s9 bc they were planning on killing him in the s8 finale and getting canceled. oh and this was the last time they let cas look good. jeremy carver known fan of ripping cas's shirt off and covering him in blood.

dabb: last half of 11 - 15. the riverdalification of supernatural! there are 4 big cornerstones to dabbnatural to me. 1) dean sux 2) seasons incoherent seasons incomprehensible bc the writers team is SUPER diverse in what they're trying to do and dabb's like whatever do what you need to do as long as we're still working towards our Overarching Plot. like the three "main" writers are dabb, bobo, and buckleming which is just. that sure is a team of people who have goals. 3) plots are more insular, more character focused, than "we gotta stop the end of the world!!!" granted they're still stopping the end of the world in most of them but in like. very quiet ways. s11, dabb written dabb finale: dean gives amara family therapy. s12, dabb written dabb finale: cas's son is being born and he's fighting with the winchesters about it and everybody's stressed because the baby tore a hole in reality. s13 finale. dabb written dabb finale. idr like the actual plot but i know the Tension Point was dean saying yes to michael to save jack and cas. s14. dabb written dabb finale. MO. RI. AH. AHHHH. 4) destiel are married at this point in time. like s5? CHARGED. s13? there's no more CHARGE moments but they're raising a kid and dean tells bad jokes and cas rolls his eyes and sighs and dean calls cas on the phone to complain about his mom. sitcom destiel.

this is obv very subjective if u want a more objective summary / more info on any of this lmk!

#ask #anonymous #spnwatch

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curioussubjects · 4 years

Text

come be a season 12 truther with me; or what if dean and cas got together offscreen

Originally, I wrote this post to celebrate “Galaxy Brain” airing as Berens & Glynn gave us “The Future.” It’s been a while since that episode aired, and some things have changed about this meta. As such, there are multiple versions of this post floating around, so make sure to go back to the source for the most up to date version. For all intents and purposes, this post functions as a meta manifesto not unlike shipping manifestos from days of LJ past. In keeping with that tradition, this post is a close reading of Dabb Era Destiel in which I argue that by using narrative gaps, queer coding, and romance tropes, Dean and Cas are shown to be in an established relationship. Although beyond the scope of this post, it’s worth pointing out that keeping Destiel mostly off screen was a way for the creatives to bypass network censorship while still remaining true to the characters.

This post is divided into three sections. Section I focuses on giving an overview of why earlier seasons of Supernatural aren’t as compelling as season 12 as a turning point for Dean and Cas’s relationship. That said, special consideration is given to 09.06 “Heaven Can’t Wait” as a potential rest stop in our journey due to it’s significantly placed narrative gap as well as themes in the episode. However, this post isn’t going to examine season 9 trutherism in depth, though it does coexist with and allow for it. Section II analyses season 12 and proposes a timeline and justification for the shifting Destiel dynamic. Finally, Section III will offer an analysis of how Dean and Cas’s relationship has changed dramatically from previous seasons in a way that is most like the shift from a “will they or won’t they” pairing to an established one.

Before I move to Section I, I’d like to note something this post takes for granted: Dean and Cas are the main romantic subplot of Supernatural, and, in fact, their relationship is elevated to main plot for both characters in season 15. This post won’t argue about the canonicity of Dean and Cas’s feelings for each other, therefore, and so won’t spend time looking at many Destiel defining moments. I’d also like to make clear that this post also takes for granted that Destiel is being intentionally developed by the writers starting with Carver’s Era, and more so in Dabb’s.

I. Why Seasons 4 through 11 May Not be It

The tl;dr. here is that while there are many moments throughout these seasons that Dean and Cas could potentially get together, none of those moments are ideal for a bunch of reasons that can be summed up as really bad timing. I also think the narrative is actively pushing them towards a moment that works. We get plenty of stepping stones, especially once we hit seasons 8 through 11 (and 11 most of all).

Seasons 4 & 5:

I know there’s been a lot of get together fics over the years set in this time period, but I just don’t see it. Do I see them being intrigued and drawn to each other? Yes. Do I think either Cas or Dean would act on it? Nope. I’m not arguing anything re: Dean’s feelings, but with everything going at the time I find it hard to believe he’d pursue anything with his angel friend. Most importantly here, though, is that during this time Cas was still very alien and other. There was too much angel in him, and while he obviously came to care about Dean (and Sam) very much, I just can’t see him navigating the realm of human relationships. That said, seeing human!Cas in “The End” is the first we see of potential developments for how Cas could behave without his angelness interfering. Being human changes Cas a lot, beyond even his experience existing among humans, though that of course matters too. This development will be important later /wink.

Seasons 6 & 7:

Before anything else let me just recognize that if we could see some sexual tension in seasons 4 & 5, these two seasons come with our first taste of romantic tension. The pining! Also note the difference between season 4 Cas and season 6 Cas in terms of behaviour. He is much less the angel we saw in that barn in “Lazarus Rising.” In season 6, we have a Cas making misguided decisions guided entirely by his emotions – namely, not wanting to involve Dean with the war in heaven – which is peak human, honestly. Put a pin on how sad Dean is in both seasons with Cas’s absence. Finally, put a pin on this being our first moment of Cas doing things on his own to spare Dean and it not ending well (soulless!Sam, Cas “dying” after Leviathan) because this is *the* hurdle in their relationship (along with Dean’s lashing out and self-worth issues). With all this said, the marked distance between Dean and Cas in these seasons negates the possibility of them entering into any kind of relationship. Much like seasons 4 and 5, there’s too much going on.

Season 8:

Ah, yes, the summer of purgatory. If you thought we had pining before…! I think we’re all very clear on season 8 being a turning point for the show, not only because new showrunner, but we also get the bunker. TFW now has an HQ, which pretty soon becomes home. Yes, Baby will always be home, but the bunker becomes the *unmovable* safe haven that Baby couldn’t be. The bunker is a place to coalesce, and for all the amazing things Baby is, she is not that. The acquisition of the bunker marks a shift in the psychology of the show: with the stable home space we can start to imagine domesticity, a place to come home to, the stuff of ordinary living. Most of all, the bunker is emblematic of security, of safety –keep this in mind, as we go forward.

This season also continues to see Cas go down the path of independently solving his problems instead of asking for help from Sam and Dean (his family in a way heaven never was) – note that the better together issue is at play in different ways with Sam and Dean also, but I digress. I also want to point out disastrous instance #2 of Cas’s insistence on figuring it out on his own: he loses his grace, and the angels fall. As for Dean, season 8’s focus for him has much to do with Sam, and them coming face to face with their issues with codependency, which hit catastrophic levels with the gates of hell and Gadreel plots.

So despite all the deliciously angsty get together purgatory fics and spec, there’s too much distance between Dean and Cas on Cas’s part due to his guilt over betraying the Winchesters in s6 plus slaughtering angels plus unleashing Leviathan. We do see Dean being more emotionally open with Cas and continue to voicing his wish that Cas would just stay with him and Sam, and let them help. It’s clear as day how much Dean cares. The timing is still bad, though.

Before moving on to next season, let’s take a moment to appreciate that this is the season Dean admits being kinda done with one night stands because “always with the adios.” Remember the bunker as a sign of stability? Yeah. I wouldn’t say Dean is craving a relationship, exactly, but I think we can see that he does want something more (ahem also I’m nodding to Cas refusing to stay put just cause).

Seasons 9 & 10:

The most important thing to happen between this two seasons is Cas’s stint as a human for an extended period of time. There’s been plenty of spec and meta written over the years about the effects of being human on Cas’s grace (a proto-soul now maybe?). What we can say for sure, regardless, is that Cas is much more humanized once he becomes an angel again. The understanding he gets from being human doesn’t go away once he regains his angel powers. You’ll notice that while we still see some of season 4’s characterization, Cas is not the same as he was – he is alien to angels now and is more intelligible to humans. Additionally, in an interesting reversal from previous seasons, we now get to see the depth of Cas’s feelings for Dean (thanks, Metatron) as well as seeing him be more open emotionally, while Dean does most of the pushing away (first because of Gadreel, then because of the Mark of Cain). In short, the timing is still bad as Dean and Cas are largely kept apart both physically and emotionally.

9.06 Heaven Can’t Wait

This episode is my white whale, friends. While I’ve come to fully subscribe to the idea that something did happen between Dean and Cas during the fanfic gap, I don’t actually think it’s feasible that it marked the start of a relationship -- be it sexual or romantic. My reasoning here is quite simple: the timing is bad. Were it not for external events (Cas regaining his Grace and Dean taking on the MoC), the course would have likely differed. Furthermore, Dean’s guilt over making Cas leave the bunker as well as Cas’s own hurt and self-loathing pose a significant and as yet insurmountable obstacle, which is easily seen with how Dean and Cas’s character trajectories go separate ways.

YMMV on what exactly happened between them in that Motel, but something definitely did. Perhaps one day I’ll have a proper s9 trutherism post to link to here for more details (likely won’t be written by me, though).

10.16 Paint It Black

From the point Dean gets the MoC until the end of season 10, anything between him and Cas is quite impossible due to distancing, to say the least. Again, yes, the fic is really good, but alas. One of the reasons I’m bringing up this episode in particular is because of the confession scene. One, it’s a rare bit of explicit emotional honesty from Dean, and two, it tells me that while he and Cas may be well aware of the Thing™ between them, it’s still uncharted waters. It’s scary, and murky, and they’re unsure how to navigated it or if they should even try. Makes sense, too, there’s been A LOT going on since s6. Anyway, he’s the full confession:

You know, the life I live, the work I do…I pretty much just figured that that was all there was to me, you know? Tear around and jam the key in the ignition and haul ass until I ran out of gas. I guess I just thought sooner or later, I’d go out the same way that I live – pedal to the metal, and that would be it. […] Now, um… recent events, uh… make me think I might be closer to that than I really thought. And…I don’t know. I mean, you know, there’s – there’s things, there’s…people, feelings that I-I-I want to experience differently than I have before, or maybe even for the first time. […] Yeah, I’m just starting to think that… maybe there’s more to it all than I thought.

Can I just say, first, that this confession keeps me up at night because we never actually see anything done with it explicitly? I mean, obviously, I think we do in fact see the effects of this confession in the show, otherwise I wouldn’t be writing this behemoth, but still, like. Damn. Ok, so, remember when I brought up that thing in season 7 about Dean being kinda done with hook-ups? Here’s where that led us. We’re seeing a Dean here who wants more than what he has convinced himself he gets to have. He wants more than dying bloody. And when he talks about wanting to experience people and feelings differently, well, that says a lot not just on the queer coding front or the romantic front. I mean, jfc, Dean is accepting the idea that he can have more in life than just hunt until he drops, and he’s specifically talking about experiences at the interpersonal level.

Do you ever see a character having an epiphany and find yourself wanting to cry because this is it right here. Dean is just blatantly admitting he wants more and maybe he can make himself be open to that (!!!), which all culminates in season 11, so…

Season 11:

The pining is still here, but it’s worse now since it’s the whole plot? It’s been *checks calendar* 5 years of this. How are any of us still kicking I don’t know. Your slow burns could never. Cool worth noting points: Cas says yes to Lucifer (bad decision #2.5, lots of mitigating effects_I don’t actually hold it against him that much but Dean is another story & not entirely rational at this point); for the first time since the early days, Dean and Cas are on equal grounds: they’ve both fucked up a lot and have hurt each other. The issues this season are outside their dynamic. Amara and Lucifer here serve as externalizing forces for Dean and Cas’s problems: Cas checks out with Lucifer because he thinks it’s the only way he can help, Dean is caught up in the turmoil of Amara, the emblem of absence and avoidance of struggle. We do get something like an affirmation from the two of them to each other via Dean calling Cas his brother (and I want y’all to consider the historical queering of that statement, and Cas’s “I could go with you.” It feels like we’re headed to them being on the same page. By the end of the season, though, it feels like we’re getting a clean slate: Mary is back, nobody died, no end-of-the-world in sight, no interpersonal crisis. We’re also getting a new showrunner, so. No wonder. We’re gearing up for something, but I’m getting ahead of myself. What this season does that is super important is that it sets up the stage for the possibility of an actual relationship between Dean and Cas, something that has, up until this point, been pretty much impossible.

11.04 Baby

Y’all know what I’m about to quote here, right? That conversation between Dean and Sam about having something with someone who understands the life. Here we still have Dean reverting to the idea that it’s impossible, which is a direct contrast to the openness in 10.16. It’s understandable, though, considering there’s been little reason to think anything like that would be possible (see all the mess and poor timing from seasons past). The quote in question, though, marks a continuing development regarding the issues Dean is struggling with this season:

DEAN: Piper? That’s awesome. Heather. One-night wonders, man. Shoot, we’re lucky we still get that at all. SAM: Really? You don’t … Ever want something more? DEAN: I’m sorry, have you met us? We’re batting a whopping zero in domestic life, man. Goose eggs. SAM: You don’t ever think about something? Not marriage or whatever. But … Something? You know, with a hunter? Somebody who understands the life?

We wouldn’t be talking about this stuff all these years after Sam and Dean had a serious relationship if it wasn’t important, right? Also who else do we meet this season? That’s right! Eileen! And doesn’t that hit different with season 15 hindsight? And who does Dean have that understands the life? Whose stories have been intricately connected to his? Right now, this is all conjecture. A pipe dream Sam is revisiting, and Dean is skeptical about. Except, well. Look at what we get in “Into the Mystic” and “The Chitters.”

11.11 Into The Mystic

I’m bringing up this episode as a cross reference to “Paint It Black” as well as to complement the talk from “Baby,” and to show, again, that, for all the closeness between Dean and Cas, there’s still a marked distance they haven’t yet bridged. There’s still truths they haven’t told each other. Thanks Mildred for the delicious exposition:

Darlin’…If there’s one thing I’ve learned in all my years on the road, it’s when somebody’s pining for somebody else. […] Oh, don’t try and hide it now. Follow your heart. Remember?

11.19 The Chitters

And here we see some validation to Sam’s imagining of a possible future with someone else. We actually see hunters who not only are married, but they both make it out alive. Jesse and Cesar get their happy ending. They make the dream come true. And the reality of it important not just for Dean to see, but Sam too.

Dean: [with realization] Oh, so … [points back and forth to Jesse and Cesar] Cesar: Yeah. Dean: Okay, that’s… Cesar puts his beer bottle on the table and looks at Dean, while Jesse is being silent. Dean: What’s it like, settling down with a hunter? Cesar: Smelly, dirty. [turns to Jesse] Twice the worrying about getting ganked.

I’d like to point out, too, that the fear of getting ganked is thematic when it comes to the tension between Dean and Cas. More on this when we hit s13.

Alright, now, having said that, let’s take a look at season 12. Bear in mind, this is the official start of Dabb’s era, even if he kinda began taking over in season 11, and the change in vibes is obvious. In fact, 12 jumped out at me as a turning point, in hindsight, after getting smacked by the domesticity of seasons 13 and 14.

II. Why Season 12

[Out of date section. Update coming soon when spoons. After significant debate, I’ve altered the definitive start of Dean and Cas’s friend-with-benefits-with-mutual-pining relationship to between 12.02 and 12.03. I briefly explained why here, and yes it’s a shitpost--still true tho.]

Finally, the promise land, y’all. Getting right to it: what s11 was for Dean in terms of setting up the relationship stage, s12 was for Cas. In its initial beats, any way. That is, until the Kelly debacle, this was the longest Cas has been around the bunker and with the exception of seasons 13 and 14, it’s one of the first times we get to see how Cas might actually fit into the bunker-as-home. Things seem remarkably chill. Of course, we’ll notice that there’s still a lot of baggage hanging around because despite Dean and Cas being in a more stable place, they haven’t actually dealt with their interpersonal problems. I didn’t single out directly this episode, but do keep in mind Cas’s declaration in 12.09 First Blood as far as how much the Winchesters matter to Cas & how we also see Dean and Cas be particularly singled out with them seating together in the backseat of the Impala. What we also see this season is Cas trying to prove he is worthy of this family, his family. He’s not fighting for heaven or to right some grievous wrong (a la s8). No, this season he’s fighting to spare the Winchester, to bring them a win. To bring Dean a win. The major disconnect is that Dean (and Sam & Mary) already sees Cas that way, he doesn’t think Cas has anything to prove. And just maybe, Cas starts believing that too – or, at least, believing it enough.

12.10 Lily Sunders Has Some Regrets

This episode, oh my god, the goodness. In the wake of 12.09 we have Dean and Cas in a tiff because Cas mistake #3 (killing Billie and “cosmic consequences”), this is a pattern. Twice the worry of getting ganked, etc etc. But where this episode really shines is through the contrast between Ishim’s obsession with Lily and Cas & Dean’s mutual affection for each other. Ishim sees no difference here and, to him, Cas’s feelings for Dean are a human weakness. Returning to my point about human!Cas, this episode underscores that Cas’s increasing humanity is what puts him in the place where he can want what Dean wants instead of either being too alien to get it (see s4 & 5) or unable to experience it properly (Ishim).

12.12 Stuck in the Middle (With You)

Cas’s trajectory culminates here with the whole I love you (@ Dean), I love all of you (@ Winchesters). Let’s note too that Cas is dying here, in a way that is much more human than going up in light. This declaration of different types of love is entirely human. It’s also a definitive step wrt to Cas and Dean’s relationship because of what happens in 12.19. This. is. it. Oh, and, of course, let’s not forget to point to Dean’s face when Cas says that “I love you,” and how terrified he is that Cas is dying. Might make one rethink some things, hm?

12.19 The Future

This episode is simply hella suspicious, and all the kudos to Berens and Glynn for writing it. It’ll haunt me forever. Consider watching it again and just questioning everything. So. Weird things:

1. Dean’s reaction to Cas no getting in touch as opposed to Sam’s. Dean is pissed, which is Dean-speak for worried out of his mind. Sam is very worried, too, and puzzled, but he’s mostly expressing his relief that Cas is back. But Cas has gone awol before, but this time Dean is much more worked up about it; Sam takes note of this, too. Now, let’s imagine that maybe the events of 12.12 led to something happening between Dean and Cas. Then Cas decided to leave to find a lead on Kelly, but eventually Cas decides to work with Heaven and goes radio silent. For days. Having taken a chance, and something having happened between them, how would Dean react to Cas just going poof and not contacting him – despite Dean having called Cas multiple times.

2. Cas knows about the Colt. Ok, nothing off there. But when he goes to Dean’s room to talk, right after Dean leaves we see Cas looking around briefly. Like he know Dean would keep it in there. Maybe Cas had looked other places already. Who knows. What we do know is that eventually he does find the Colt not only in Dean’s room, but under Dean’s pillow. Sam didn’t even know the Colt wasn’t in the safe. So how did Cas know?

3.“He came into my room and he played me.” So, this quote right there, makes it seem like some seduction for personal gain, right? But can you see Cas actually doing that if they hadn’t gone there previously? For Dean not to suspect anything and go with it? There’s plenty of plausible deniability here, but the gaps in time in the narrative make me question what is there in those spaces. The scene where Cas tried to give Dean the mixtape back doesn’t read like “playing,” so it’s about a different interaction. Hm. Hmmm.

4. Dean and Cas’s brief conversation in Dean’s room is clearly Dean just wanting Cas to stay, so they can work (and be) together – because they’re better that way. Which, yeah, truth, but also ow.

5.And most importantly: When did Dean give Cas that mixtape??? How did that happen?

Sequence of events: Cas tells Dean he loves him – Dean is clearly shook by it – Dean gives Cas a mixtape (romantic gesture, often a declaration of feelings; in true Dean speak too lolsobs) – Cas goes awol - Dean acts like he got ghosted by his new bf -?????- Cas somehow knows the Colt is under Dean’s pillow – "He went into my room and he played me."

What am I supposed to do with that, hm? Like. Y’all realize they probably had some emotionally constipated getting together moment, right? Something that Dean clearly initially thought meant things were gonna change, now. Something that Cas couldn’t allow to happen until he could give Dean a win. Y’all are seeing this, yeah? I’m not saying they slept together and were full of feelings, except that’s kind of what I’m saying. But YMMV, there are other possibilities beyond sex. The full of feelings isn’t up for debate, though, even if the whole thing is informed by ridiculous amounts of miscommunication.

III. Seasons 13 through 15 As Established Relationship

Regardless of what happened in season 12, exactly, I can’t shake the feeling that something did happen, and something did change. My reasoning here is actually really simple: in comparison to previous seasons, Dean and Cas’s dynamic shifts significantly come season 13. I know some folks have been disappointed with some of season 13 and then season 14 for having dialed back on the destiel side of things. And, hey, maybe there’s truth to that in terms of backstage stuff, but I also want to point out that...well, the dialing back isn’t quite dialing back is it? Let’s look at 13 a little more closely:

Season 13:

So I said the deancas dynamic changed, right? I also think that change caught us unaware because the pivotal turning point that would cue us in never happened on screen as well as being subsumed by Cas’s death and Jack’s birth. But if I ask you about deancas in season 13 what would come to mind? Grief arc? Brokebacknatural? How domestic Dean and Cas are? There’s just something easy about their relationship after Cas returns from the Empty. The tension we’d grown so familiar with over the years is gone. Actually, it feels like we skipped the getting together bit of their relationship and went straight to established relationship and parenting. Some of the most peak married deancas moments we see circulating? Season 13, (and 12.10). It’s a lot, and it’s different, and it’s amazing.

13.01-13.05

Dean’s grief mini-arc. He was acting like a widower. Here’s me vaguely gesturing towards the mapping of Jonh, Mary, Dean, and Sam onto Dean, Cas, Sam, and Jack. And the reunion? I can’t help but be giddy at the song choice: “it’s never too late to start all over again.” To. Start. All. Over. Again. I’m just saying.

13.06 Tombstone & 13.16 Scoobynatural

I’m not going at length about these episodes, I just want to point out that they reveal that Dean and Cas have a whole thing going on off screen: they watch movies together, Cas knows about Dean being an angry sleeper, Cas seems to have been aware of the Dean-cave before Sam was. It’s little things like this that are examples of the narrative gaps surrounding Dean and Cas that have cropped up over the years. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to wonder what else could be hiding there. And when did the movie nights alluded in “Tombstone” happen? Maybe in season 12 when Cas in hanging around the bunker? The same period when Dean and Cas seem to be coalescing into something safer and more stable? Something that we never see come to a head because plot happens and Cas dies? Something that is immediately taken back up once Cas is alive again?

Season 14:

Overall, this season is more of what we got during 13, but it had two high notes I wanted to single out before ending this already too long post.

14.15 Peace of Mind

Look me in the eye and tell me Dean and Cas talking in the kitchen about Jack doesn’t read like husbands talking about their child. Look me in the eye and tell me Cas just texting Dean to gossip about Sam isn’t couple-y as hell.

14.18-14.20

Ah, yes, the divorce arc. Awful. Terrible. The culmination of Dean’s problem in all this: he lashes out, he pushes Cas away, his anger is alienating. Cue all of us suffering. But while Dean is clearly in the wrong in how the deals with his feelings, let’s not pretend some of his anger doesn’t come from a long established, and unaddressed, rift between him and Cas, which had its last traumatic turn when Cas died in s12. Dean isn’t being rational here: he saw Cas doing something on his own, and he saw that his mother is dead. What else could happen? Why won’t Cas just trust they can work as a team? What if Cas died again? And why should Cas put up with Dean’s behavior without knowing the cause? How can any relationship work this way? But notice how caught in the middle Sam was during all this. Notice how Jack is running off and acting out. The whole family is falling apart. Divorce arc, indeed.

Season 15:

But what about what we’re building up in 15? That seems like it could be a getting together plot, too, right? Well, yeah. It could very well be. But I’d argue the tension we’re seeing isn’t a will-they-or-won’t-they because they already have. We’re are watching a getting back together plot! The tension is, instead, will-they-or -won’t-they use their words to talk about the baggage that has kept them from truly being confident about their relationship. That’s the crucial step in their togetherness that they’re still missing, which is also the bedrock of the divorce arc that spanned twelve fucking episodes -- y’all, that’s half a season.

And technically? We’re not even done with yet because Cas never let Dean finish his prayer/confession in purgatory. What’s more, Cas hasn’t grappled with his role in the breakdown of their relationship, either: that he keeps going off on his own and getting hurt (and getting other people hurt), and Dean has to deal with the fallout. The deep emotional understanding, the truly being on the same page is what we’re on the edge of our seats for. We’re waiting to see what else Dean had to say, and what will happen when Cas’s deal with the Empty comes to light.

Finally, could we still have this plot without Dean and Cas having gotten together off screen? Sure, but I think the stakes are higher if they already did have something between them. If they actually have an established romantic relationship going on. Something real and tangible and as of yet much too fragile.

"...you asked what about all this is real. We are."

#destiel #deancas #supernatural #spn #spn meta #this thing is gargantuan yikes #anyway enjoy? let's chat #my writing #this thing is half meta half my adhd unleashed

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incarnateirony · 1 year

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That last post really makes me appreciate fans like you and other series positive spaces. There is a fandom I am in (for a manga) where for a while it very much became anti-led when a new generation of fans joined, trying police fans and say who we older fans should hold empathy for or who to hate. They completely missed the point of its story saying of not everyone is going to agree on how forgiveness is given. Very much feels like 2po is trying to pull that with those of us trusting the show.

That's exactly what he's doing. Like we've been saying, he's literally trying to manipulate a universe where the people who enjoy the show, the people the show was written for, are bad fans; and that the hate watchers, the people who discredit all the work crew members are actively posting about and asking us to acknowledge, people who bad faith the creatives, are somehow "good fans."

I've seen it happen before, as you described. Hell, it happened in SPN, which is WHY this truth is so buried. If fandom is interested, and really cares, it can go back and unpack YEARS of manipulations people like 2po have done against the creatives.

For example, inspiring people to bad faith bobo's efforts by insisting he had no intent. 2po was all over that, and denying the confession was already written until the production scripts dropped. At this point, Bobo's intent was actually very well known to anyone that like. Spoke. To him. Or like. Paid marginal amounts of attention. Or weren't so untrustworthy they just got his smug gay elf grin.

Season 12, market testing. Pushing back against the corporate blockade 2po also, at the time, claimed didn't exist. Now, of course, per convenience, he's pretending that hurdle exists, and thinks he can spin people's anxieties that way, when the new corporate structure actually liberates the content, not the other way around. But NOW, NOW!!! there's corporate interference. Nevermind his 5K failboat of denial, and us finding out the finale didn't even square its music licensing till the final week it was falling apart so bad.

What about Robbie calling Destiel canon in season 10? Carver passing a note on Bobo's first ep to play it romantic? These things were all screeched over for years to help inspire bad faith against the authors. They had footing in the previous institutions.

It's why, though, jared stans are so mad he isn't involved. Some even invested millions in his company to try to influence things and it's like, well, hope you enjoy the pennies back because on a fandom investment, what a waste.

In early years, efforts from authors were independent. Carver's writing room was very competitive. Robbie used to be one of the lone gay warriors with Edlund occasionally dropping a nice bomb. It wasn't until Dabb era the room became collaborative (barring singerbuckleming) and everyone worked towards a goal. But Robbie's been pulling that line the whole time, and Bobo when he tapped in (and played baton pass with Robbie S9-11), and yeah, Bobo trained the new kids and they worked as a pack.

And for *years* this fandom was monkey trained by antis to scream at them and tear them apart and call it queerbait while they were fighting their asses off and jousting with market testing issues, genre issues, and other property label issues (not to mention effects of the Chad Kennedy S9 incident.)

So now, people are kind of having to face that they abused the fuck out of authors for years that were on their side, and some people really don't want to face that. These are the kind of people and hatedom antis like 2po nestle in with and try to toxify fandoms with.

And neither I, nor Jensen, nor Robbie are letting it happen. On a fandom front, I'm not. On a property front, Jensen's not, hence banning certain content types from markets and distancing the J2 affiliation (check CE listing shifts over the last half year and the open access to autos). And on the fine footnotes of the canon's text pinning them down like a bug being studied, Robbie's not either. Cuz again, they only got a few episodes left to stunt.

But do. Not. Let. Them. Poison. This. Fandom. This is a new show, it's not even for them, and they don't get to fuck it up on entitlement to persist like angry spirits. The plot is literally Unpack Your Shit And Face The Truth Or Fuck Off To The Void.

#spnwin #the winchesters

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googledocsdyke · 3 years

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i have not seen any episodes of spn past season 10. but i am asking u because i trust ur opinion. should i watch the other 5? or is it not worth it?

oh ABSOLUTELY watch the other 5. you'll get some big hits and some big misses. my opinion on ~dabb era~ as a cohesive concept changes every time the wind blows but (and i was yelled at on discord for this) season 12 is one of my singular favourite seasons of supernatural. some general pros of seasons 11-15:

- genuinely post-carver supernatural just feels like it's less afraid to have fun. like you get yockey and perez who specialise in writing an all-caps WHAT IF... on the top of a whiteboard and just fucking slamming the gas from there. but like WITH the reading. the 3-episode season 12 yockey hat trick is like. BING BANG BOOM. angel gender! cas backstory! hunter funerals that aren't lonely devastated burnings but a big crowded house full of drinking games and collective community lore! THEE banes twins! other one-episode wonders include the chitters, scoobynatural, baby, regarding dean, tombstone, ouroboros, mint condition..... late seasons supernatural is at its best when it says fuck the very tiresome molasses mytharc and let's be insane and do a Concept. and it WORKS. like the finales mostly drag but many individual episodes are so good that i could live there

- you get claire's coherent arc!! miss newton killed it in 10x09 and 10x10 and 10x20 but a lot of it is claire having like. the worst fucking life of all time and being prickles and thorns and too much anger behind too small of a gun. her relationship w jody is SO good and aching and the wayward sisters setup is super fun even if. yknow. they didn't follow through

- BILLIE is truly one of the best chars they've ever done though they did her dirty at the end. like she haaaates the winchesters but rather than being some deep seething hyper-personal resentment she has a fascinating relationship to like. the desire to generally bring order to the universe — not imposed power, but just like the natural cycle of being in the world. in a way she's not so much working against the winchesters as she is the like very existence of the entire show — what dies Should stay dead and what is clearly dying Should be put out of its misery and YET the show rolls on. like it's deliciously uncomfortable every time she's on the screen because she's RIGHT! the only reasons the winchesters "should" survive another day is like.... they want to. her style her flair her lines her philosophy her position as Librarian mwah!

- rowena as well. god. milfnatural REALLY goes crazy in the later seasons i don't know what to say she's so good. the FLAIR the drama the royal court shakespeare production of it ALL

- MARY PLOTLINE HIIIIII. WOW. Well. if i think about mary for too long my brain does microwave noises but like the fact that they Literally resurrect the ghost of an inciting incident, the mother-as-plot device who does not speak, never the mourner eternally mourned???? And they stick her into the living world????? And she takes off that stupid nightgown???? big qualms w mary in lebanon and lack of john followthrough BUT LIKE. and her relationship with dean like she cannot meet his eyes. she cannot meet his eyes. multiple dean mary scenes that i cannot physically watch it's like a live wire MMM DELICIOUS

- JACK. SO important to understanding cas' arc. he is gay and he is a dad and he is a dad ON PURPOSE w such sweetness and sincerity and presence like i will become so fiercely father-shaped it's just quite excellent like the dude queers fatherhood. i am of split minds of how they did the dean jack relationship bc at the risk of over-spoiling it i think it's all setup and no followthrough/denouement/proper resolution. and like this is a general problem w supernatural in general that doesn't go away in late seasons you can see the moving parts of something great and then they kind of shrink back and explain it away in the vaguest way possible. But still. jack amazing mesmerising so much potential much of it realised it IS ABOUT father and sons

- you get to see dean and cas build up to 15.18. which is just, like, delicious and SO rewarding. season 12 almost-get together! widower arc! divorce arc! tenuous quasi-parenting debates! all building to I Love Every Body Be Cause I Love You

basically like much of supernatural, it has a lot of truly delicious moving parts with a lacklustre mytharc and some truly egregious writing decisions thrown in. it's not coherent in a way that supernatural has never been and arguably gets worse. BUT it has some of my personal favourite characters and writers of all time and if you want to see any of the above it's like. entirely worth it. and there is something delightful if disturbing in watching a show go on for so long that it parodies itself and references itself and eats itself whole. it is so often so much FUN let's hear it for cwification

#answered #anonymous #sorry for this being insanely long. also this isn't my coherent/complete view on 11-15 just some of the delights that come to mind #spn

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elizabethrobertajones · 3 years

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Hello there. I have a question (more like a thesis): What would have happened if Cas told the Truth anywhere between season 7 and 15? Do you think it would have had the same impact on Dean? Logically speaking Cas could have told him anytime.

Oh gosh, yes. I mean Dean’s reaction in season 15 is still the best it could have been really :P He was in the best place and most accepting of himself and he still had a BSOD for a moment and then Cas had to shove him away so he could go die... (Assuming you take the on screen boring presentation of what happened as canon and not throw in the reciprocation, tears, pull in for a kiss, etc that we know exists either in our hearts or on Jackles’ phone.)

I’ve been thinking about this and the parameters we’d have to apply if we were gonna get something like the show being self-healing back to its self as we know it but we were allowed a confession. Also the show has to be as punishing as ever. So these are my personal theses on each season...

Season 7 the confession would have to be after Cas comes back, and everything in 7x17 that looked like Dean was jealous of Daphne and Meg textually was meant to be read that way in the set up for the confession. To make it the most painful obviously we still get Cas exactly as he was all through to the end of the season and he never really says anything too different but then right when they’re having the “cursed or not” discussion he’d bust out of nowhere that he supposes it is inevitable Dean would talk him into going on this dangerous mission to get Dick because obviously Cas loves him. And Dean, who is in a weirdly zen sort of place in the remaining minutes of season 7 after Bobby’s send off and final words that helped him go make up with Cas, is in a similarly season 15 oddly okay spot, mental health wise. At least. COMPARED TO ALL THE REST OF SEASON 7. But I still personally have always read it as a genuinely good place for him that could have endured much longer if not for *gestures everything that happened after stabbing Dick* and obviously making up with Cas was step one and a huge part of his process.

(idk if you’ve noticed but 7x23 pretty much has no Sam and Dean interaction after Bobby’s send off, and their last good broments are really scarce; it feels sort of natural for abrupt calamity and no time for teary farewells in a season with a strong commentary on grief, which also hyperfocuses the attention on Dean n Cas there.)

So I think Dean would maybe be stunned but maybe quirk a sceptical smile like “He can’t mean it like that and anyway he’s currently coo-coo, this doesn’t mean anything hahaha oh Cas :)))” and then idk shake his head and move the story on and Cas just turns one longing look after him like “dammit that didn’t work out like planned”

Anyway then the exact plot beats of 7x23 follow, exactly as seen on your screens, but we’re left going into season 8 and Carver era with Dean far far more messed up about Cas and it can force clarification in 8x02 in Purgatory where Cas is entirely adamant he meant what he meant and furious at Dean for being mad at him and Dean’s mad at Cas for all the season 8 reasons so they continue angsting at each other but Benny’s reaction shots are just 10x funnier. This is followed by Dean’s reciprocation of “I love you” instead of “I need you” in the crypt scene in 8x17 and from there honestly it’s been built up into canon in such a way that the emotional arc of the show has to go off the wheels and I can’t keep to the self-healing model to continue following the “real” plot and contain this much raw power.

Coincidentally, if the first confession is in season 8, it would be “what broke the connection” after a season 8 where nothing was different up until that point. Cas flaps off while Dean is still processing that the answer was “You. I love you.” and Dean is left yelling at the empty crypt like “What the hell, Cas?!”

Then he’s as mad at him as he was in canon except instead of being borderline a really bad overreaction into his anger phase which we have to weather as miserable fans tethered to this ship who know sometimes Dean gets mad and yells at Cas for no reason, he’s reacting proportionately. It’s always seemed like 8x22 only makes sense if Dean is furious at Cas for confessing and fleeing except, obviously, in our “”real”” canon, it can only be like Cas confessed and Dean took it that way and also felt embarrassed how far he went with his own feelings only for Cas to run.

This would make the bar scene with the cupids in 8x23 make a lot more sense too, and after they get the cupid bow Dean’s going to turn to Cas and give him a nervous smile, and then - Naomi flaps in like she does and distracts them away from reciprocation.

I think this one could go long - maybe even season 13 Cas being dead and Dean being like “FUCK I never got a chance to work things out with him” and 13x06 onwards is where we get any actual work on the ship, because Carver era was so determined to be emotionally gruelling and unsatisfying and relentless from one issue to the next. And the confessions are so bound up specifically in the moments of miscommunication or failed attempts, cut off conversations etc that whether Destiel is canon or not, they’re never gonna get to talk it out under those conditions. Cas is only explicitly the grieving wife and jealous ex to Crowley’s smug take over of Dean’s affections rather than subtextually.

The season 9 confession... I feel like we’d come perilously close to the Monkey Paw curse we once envisioned of Buckleming making it canon because they love jumping the gun on plot points and making them too obvious. So the end of 9x03, Cas is really blatantly angling to come in with a big “Hey I’m human can I live in the Bunker look at me I learned to do The Sex can we do it now” kind of vibe. All the enthusiasm he was giving to eating that burrito in the background while “Zeke” was trying to get him kicked out, but with lusting over Dean :P

If we avoid that we can leap to Mr Bobo Berens and his first episode, and have this thing handled by a pro, as it’s already very much about Cas as a homeless queer man with a bad ex he still loves rolling into town where he’s just trying to make a new life and play straight - I mean human - for his own survival. I suspect the confrontation with Iphraim would make it really obvious that Cas didn’t just want to live as a human but had an eye for living as a human with Dean, and then he’d attempt a confession right before Dean would accidentally talk over, like, the L in “love” honestly, to tell him that sorry things do still stand that you can’t come back with me. Leaves Cas utterly devastated but Dean is none the wiser and he drives off and Cas pines piningly at the pine trees in his Gas n Sip.

Again the end of season probably would force the real confession, since there’s a ready made moment in 9x22 where Hannah tries to force Cas to kill Dean and he gives it all up for one man. Cas can just lower that knife and be like, “No, I love him,” talking to his shoes and Hannah rather than meeting Dean’s eyes. Mark of Cain Dean is fuuuucked up at that point but we still get the moment where Dean carries Cas’s bag into the bunker and sits down with him and tries to care about his health and now also this confession. Sussing out what the heck is up with Cas, and maybe he looks like he’s playing it cool and is still so messed up but Cas is vulnerable, and finally Dean starts to reach across the library table for his hand, and it’s a moment where maybe things could have started to go better for them...... Cue Gadreel walking into the library, Dean going feral, blah blah demon!Dean, blah blah explicitly stated Drowley, blah blah muuuch healing and Cas giving Dean a wide berth for a lil while. Though, in this scenario, 10x22 is far worse but has the reverse crypt scene moment, so Dean can be more obviously unable to kill Cas because he loves him, and then he walks out, followed by season 11 and Cas being returned to them. Unfortunately. Yep. Another finger curls on the Monkey Paw... 11x03 by Buckleming would absolutely be where Destiel goes undeniably canon as it is their first real interactions post Mark of Cain. Our only consolation - directed by Jensen Ackles.

Season 10 confession, hm. Poor Cas. He has the option of 10x03, of confessing and then immediately apologising and walking off to handle stuff with Hannah (thanks Buckleming!) or the Burger Date, where Dean may be slightly less stunned stupid but still likely to laugh it off and not believe it. There’s not much heavy tension between them most of the season so it’s possible that the only time Cas would really get is to confess in 10x22 while telling Dean that he would have to watch him murder the world, and that would suck because I love you. At which point the story dictates that Dean beats Cas to paste so it’s a very bad look. Season 10 destiel confession is the worst.

Season 11 may be better because Cas has options to be jealous of Crowley and Dean’s connection to Amara multiple times and then Casifer happens and that can really play up things in a season where a confession is coming.

I think the Beer Run in 11x23 might be the only viable place, where Dean grabs Cas and takes him out for that drive for last drinks before the end of the world. Cas gets the “you’re our brother” thing and just lays into Dean with the certainty of someone who knows this is it - now or nothing - with “You know that’s crap, Dean. You wait until the end of the world and you can’t even say it. Well I can; I love you.”

Cue awkward tension, well-placed interrupting Moose, and then the world very much not ending so that when Dean n Cas hug and kiss in front of Mary in 12x01. Well. There’s even more explaining to do to her. Since we’ve made it to Dabb era, I believe any confessions from this point onwards can just slot into the show as we got it from there since it’s entirely compatible to start season 12 assuming Dean n Cas are literally married and never be contradicted by the text in their behaviour. But since we’ve had canon Destiel since whenever, obviously the final episodes are good instead of. That.

Season 12... Going to have to go with the first sniff of true canon coming in Lily Sunder with just a few lines leaning even further in the Cas’s Angel Family Are Homophobic Assholes metaphor, leaving Cas’s relationship with Dean even more live wire exposed. Followed by The Mixtape Scene where Cas is going to confess to Dean and get him startled up out of his seat, accidentally knocking the mixtape to the floor and for a moment it’s like, did he throw it is he mad? but then he’s smooching Cas, fade to black, return to scheduled programming but the whole line about Cas stealing the Colt from under Dean’s pillow makes fuckin sense, as well as the fall out argument and how mad Dean was at Cas followed by how devastated he was at Cas��s death. This just means Dabb era continues as planned except we get a kiss in 13x06 under that big glowy cross, and some more smooching here and there when things are good from then on.

Season 13... Hm. Cas has to do the confessing and I don’t think he’d throw that at Dean on return from death so unlike if Dean was the one who was being made to confess obviously the aforementioned glowy cross scene obviously would be it for him... Cas could keep that bottled up much longer, especially as he has so much to do with Jack this season. It’s entirely possible we go through the whole season and then Cas lobs it at Dean as a final card when he’s making his Michael decision and we actually see the scene that we didn’t get, where Cas has to watch Dean getting possessed. Except Dean is like, tearful and furious like why would you tell me that now, and anyway i’m doing this for you as well dumbass but fuck you but also how dare you anyway I need to be an archangel now and save our - your - son, bye. Cue Cas sitting there not just in total horror at what happened but also kicking himself for fucking up the moment :P I guess this way at least we can have that moment where Dean is un-Michaeled and tells Cas he’s going to shower and finger guns at him, and now we can have Cas wordlessly and furiously follow him.

Season 14, we get Cas at Rocky’s bar confessing to Dean while figment!Pamela cheers the whole thing on. If there was EVER a time to use the power of love to snap Dean out of it, Cas upsetting his cosy routine with “this isn’t real, I’M NOT HERE IN YOUR FANTASY” is absolutely the time to pull a reverse crypt scene which has such low stakes in terms of neither of them needing to punch each other when Michael is an external aggressor.

My ONLY issue with this is that Sam has to witness the whole thing and we would get reaction shots and I am a weak mortal who will start cackling at them when I’m supposed to be having the transcendent moment of canon and the whole thing would be ruined just because of the way Jared gurns when doing reactions to dean n cas interacting. Wow thanks. Thanks a lot.

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