#ultimately his characterization is just so inconsistant that you can say whatever | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

egipci · 1 year

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hi there! what piece of later-seasons characterization of daddy winchester irks you the most? (i mean a scene, or some new information that you think is the worst addition/rewriting of the character)

Hello! You know, there's a number of incidents people talk about when it comes to inconsistent later-season John writing. Like, the boys camp story, or the "Dad used to send me away when I pissed him off" story. But I don't know, I think inconsistency and contradiction have been the hallmark of John Winchester characterization since the very beginning and to frame it as mainly a late-season issue is a little unfair. (See, "Dad never hit us" and then the revelation that he did hit Dean when Sam ran away. Or his hyper-protectiveness over Sam somehow leading to cutting him off(!) when he went to college. Or, consider all we hear about his tyranny as a parent before we actually spend some time with him--- he's just a lanky emo dude, and he's really emotionally vulnerable with his kids (or at least with Dean) and sure he's giving orders and arguing with Sam but when Dean pushes back, he just folds, or apologizes, or agrees --- there is never a threat of physical coercion when it comes to Dean, at least that we see) --- and all of that is within Kripke-era SPN, if not entirely during the first season. And I think we can sit around and wank about poor inconsistent writing all we want (and we should!)--- but it's also fun and interesting to think about all the ways real and fictional people can just be terribly wrong in their understanding of their own selves and their true motivations and the foreseeability of the outcomes of their actions, etc. This is to say, let John Winchester be fucked-up and inconsistent! And beyond that, the fact of the continuing (seemingly contradictory) revelations about John actually reveals so much about Sam and Dean's relationship. Dean only tells Sam about the boys camp incident some twenty-years later! He tells Sam about being sent away in his forties! Sam! The person closest to him in the whole world! I find that significant and worth thinking about, regardless of how that ultimately influences your understanding of their relationship (or their relationship to John).

All that aside, there is a moment in S15 (ep. 17, I think) where Sam is talking Dean out of making Jack suicide-bomb God and he says something like, "All my life you've protected me. From Dad, from Lucifer" --- and that was just so fucking insane to me that I simply do not know how to interpret it. For Sam to suggest that John caused him harm greater or even equal to Lucifer (or even posed an equal but unrealized threat) is absolutely bananas to me, as is the idea that Dean successfully prevented such harm --- I thought that was the whole drama of their childhood, that Dean could not, for various complicated reasons, advocate for Sam to the degree that he should have. The most generous, good-faith explanation of that comment is that Sam is speaking about the S2 command to kill him if all else fails, but of course even as they were living through it Sam had fully bought into the John Winchester contingency plan and was on board. So, I don't know, maybe I'm missing something vital to interpreting that line (and you know, people say weird shit in moments of great urgency or distress, so whatever).

Another thing is: the boys camp story does really throw me for a loop. Sending Dean away as punishment à la S14 reveal makes more sense to me because, I don't know --- John is presumably sending him to work cases somewhere or help this or that hunter, so there's an adult around who knows what's what, he's still training for the fight and doing his job and John knows where to check on him, etc. and I don't think John is the kind of person to outsource his parenting to the state (sending him to Bobby's is substantially different than leaving him with a bunch of randos). And don't get me wrong, the "you fucked up so bad that I don't even want to see you or be around you, you need to get the fuck out of here even as you're my co-parent and closest friend and partner and care-taker--- your failure in this moment has outweighed your utility to me" is awfully, terribly cruel, but it feels less like an afterthought than just leaving him behind somewhere does, and maybe less cruel for that reason. I don't think John Winchester's cruelty is ever intended for its own sake. Or rather, his cruelty is always tempered by his affection. Also just on a strategic level, leaving Dean in a state-run juvenile camp puts them on the government's radar to a degree that I think would be extremely undesirable if you're regularly committing felonies with help from your minor children.

(Of course if you're daddycestuously-inclined, as I am (in the this tickles my pickle sense or the holy shit all evidence leads me to believe this more-likely-than-not happened sense) --- there are all these interesting ways to harmonize these inconsistencies. Of course John would send his sixteen year old who may or may not be in love with him far away -- to set Dean straight, or so he wouldn't have to deal with the shame of having taken from Dean what he wanted, or to protect Dean from whatever the fuck that shit was, etc. So many possibilities!)

#preseries S/D is almost impossible for me to seriously consider but I'm sure someone has also done the 'John tries to keep them apart #bc he suspects something' or whatever #but anyway #that was too fucking long and not particularly revolutionary in John Winchester studies #sorry anon #re:#John Winchester #and #john/dean #if only briefly #asks

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licncourt · 2 years

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Do you think Lestat could have and should have ended the cycle of violence (which is Loustat) by committing an ultimate act of violence against Louis?Lestat was pushed to that point in his rawest moment in TOTBT, even after he returned as a vampire. For a man of action and pushing the limits, it's very hypocritical of him. (Louis would probably prefer a death of moral high ground over butchered characterization post-QoTD)

Okay, full disclosure, I have very little in-depth knowledge of TOTBT. Except for some key points that were burned into my brain, I only remember what I gleaned from angry skimming. I read it, but I did not absorb it. Ditto for the rest of 90s canon.

As it is, I feel like I can barely analyze the post-trilogy series as a continuation of the first three books. The characters are so wildly different and inconsistent it almost seems disingenuous to consider TOTBT or after an authentic and reasonable arc for anyone. There's a reason I focus all my meta on the original trilogy.

That said, I don't think so, no. Definitely not. In my opinion, one of the most compelling things about Louis and Lestat's relationship is the potential for growth and healing, both together and separately. I don't think AR does a good job at all of getting them from point a (IWTV) to point b (their happy relationship in the PL era), but the the point remains that the overall trajectory of their relationship is toxic -> healthy (bad characterization notwithstanding). I think Lestat actually killing Louis would be a major disservice to their story potential and damage the character narrative much in the same way this book already does. Allow me to explain.

One of the primary reasons I find TOTBT so disappointing and upsetting is Lestat's behavior, which you mentioned in the ask. The awful things he does in IWTV become, if not justified, at least understandable and sympathetic. He was responding to his environment through mental illness and trauma, but we know from TVL that he's not a heartless killer or evil sociopath. We're happy to root for him in QOTD because we empathize with his flaws and want to see him succeed. He's grown as a person since IWTV and he's clearly still growing.

What AR does with his character is heartbreaking to me because she takes those very dark but sympathetic flaws and pushes them way too far with seemingly no explanation. Instead of deeply wounded young man who's lashing out at his loved ones and exhibiting very controlling behaviors out of fear of abandonment/being hurt, he becomes entitled and abusive. The book is from his POV this time, so there's no bias against him to blame it on.

The Lestat we saw growing and learning healthy intimacy is suddenly demanding Louis, who he was just reconciled with, relive some of his worst trauma (creating another vampire) to bail Lestat out of a shitty mistake. When Louis refuses and removes himself from the situation, Lestat burns his house down in revenge. Even when they reunite towards the end of the book, Lestat doubles down and is still extremely angry and even threatening.

(I'm not going to discuss it here, but it's still not the worst of the things he does in the book. I have a whole separate rant about how disrespectful the handling of the SA themes are to victims, especially since Lestat is heavily coded as one.)

All of that is to say that I think it's honestly irrelevant whether Lestat's behavior was hypocritical or Louis was out of character or whatever because I don't think this story arc should have occurred in the first place. Lestat killing Louis here would be the wrong choice because this entire book was the wrong choice.

Character-wise it doesn't make any sense for Lestat to have even created this situation in the way he does. I have no problem with the possibility of exploring a Lestat who is backsliding in his growth because of trauma and relationship baggage, but that's not at all how it's handled or framed. It's just the first book of the rest of the series where Lestat no longer seems like himself.

(Another separate spiel I have is about how TOTBT feels more like AR trauma dumping than writing a story for her established characters, but I digress)

To return to my point about Louis in all of this, I think having what you described occur would be extremely disappointing and unsatisfying for them. They were so toxic in IWTV, but then they reunite as better people and begin this really lovely healing process. It's not shown, but it's set up beautifully. I think it would be a big letdown and honestly bad writing to end their arc that way when to this point, it's been about growth and healing.

A well-written character who changes in ways that feel properly paced and genuine is far more compelling than one who essentially stays the same. The "cycle of violence" is already broken with their reunion and reconciliation. Why push their characterization backwards when it's so well situated to continue expanding and evolving?

#anyway fuck totbt #answered #vc #loustat #meta #lestat de lioncourt

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logicalbookthief · 3 years

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Things Left Unsaid -- An Analysis of Rei & Touya

Apparently Rei has been getting a lot of flack lately, all of it undeserved, and since I had a post analyzing her relationship with Touya in the works already, I figured no time like the present.

Disclaimer #1: There are a lot of issues with the writing for Rei’s character that have nothing to do with her and everything to do with how the storyline is using her, which I will address and examine.

Disclaimer #2: I’m someone who, while always curious as to what kind of relationship Rei had with her oldest son before he died, never thought it would be revealed that Touya was close to his mom. I don’t think you get the Dabi we see in Chapters 290-295 without him being so warped by his relationship with his father yet so dependent on his attention that he was willing to kill his brother and himself simply for his father’s acknowledgement.

But that’s what I find so interesting about Rei and Touya -- it’s a relationship that mainly consists of regrets and things left unsaid. There isn’t the anger or resentment Dabi feels for Endeavor, because that intense level of emotion sprung from the loss of the father who used to be his whole world. His feelings toward his mother seem more amicable, but also more distant.

And while she could’ve done some things differently in regards to her oldest, I want to make it clear that the distance between them was very much by design.

After all, Touya was the end goal of their marriage. It was never any secret as to why Enji wanted to marry her and to some extent Rei must’ve realized that this child was not meant to be hers: the child was the transaction, the thing she was needed to create, to give to her husband. Of course she loved Touya and was likely his primary caregiver for most of his life, but there was no doubt that once his quirk manifested and he could begin his hero training, his life would be dominated by his father. Which is what happened.

Here, I would like to point out something I noticed in the flashback chapters. We never see any panels of Enji alone with any of his children during their infancy -- even with Shouto, the perfect child he longed for, we see Rei holding Shouto, sitting by him as he sleeps. Enji is there tangentially. Once Shouto begins his training, that is when we see him with his father.

So to see Enji with Touya when he was a baby, prior to his quirk manifesting, strikes me as a big deal. But it makes sense if you remember that he’d placed all his hopes, dreams and expectations on his firstborn. Initially, it doesn’t look like he even considered the possibility that Touya wouldn’t be his successor or that his little eugenics experiment would fail; this was his first, most optimistic attempt at a masterpiece. So I don’t believe it’s far-fetched to see him spend more time with Touya right off the bat (it’s what will make the eventual abandonment all the more crushing).

However, Rei isn’t seen at all in the snippet of Touya’s infancy, despite us knowing she was relegated to the caregiver role. Rei is literally out of the picture. Compare this to how she features prominently in Shouto’s infancy or how we see her holding a baby Natsuo. You could argue that, hey, we don’t see her holding a baby Fuyumi either, but there’s other scenes where Fuyumi’s attached to her mother’s hip or crying over her being hurt. Things that suggest a closeness, when the only scene we get of just her and Touya is one where they’re at odds.

As we move further into Touya’s childhood, though, Rei becomes the only voice we hear advocate for him against his father. I’m referencing two specific instances:

When Enji coerces her into having more children to replace Touya now that his father has deemed him a failure, something she knows will hurt their son deeply.

And after Touya lashes out at Shouto, which Rei doesn’t blame on Touya, but rather on his father. She delivers such a satisfying condemnation of his actions, probably the most cutting one Endvr’s received to date, and it so accurately sums up one of his major character flaws.

How can you call yourself a hero when you can’t even face your own son?

The tragedy of it all is that Rei never said any of this in front of Touya -- it was always said in private, just to her husband. That alone took courage, yes, but it would’ve meant everything to Touya to hear her condemn his father aloud. Instead when she does speak to him, she says this:

It’s why I can’t wrap my head around that scene in Ch 302, where after Enji admits he didn’t know what to say to Touya, Rei replies, “Neither did I.”

When we’re shown in flashbacks during that same chapter that she did understand her son. “He just wants to be acknowledged by you” is quite the indication that she, at the very least, understood the cause of Touya’s turmoil even if she couldn’t fully relate to it herself. So why can’t she say any of this to him?

The answer is in the way she addresses Touya, as it is nearly identical to how Nao addresses Tenko in this scene:

Both Touya and Tenko grew up in similar households: the father had all the power, physical and financial, so the mothers were left to try and comfort their children in a way that didn’t go against their husbands’ desires -- and so, to use Tenko’s own words, they would “reject them with kindness.”

So it’s no wonder that Touya lashes out at his mother after she suggests he pursue other things. He isn’t five like Tenko was, he’s thirteen and has a much clearer understanding of why she says this and why it’s a bit hypocritical, since he’s aware of her situation, too.

Just as she was bound by her family, who wanted her to marry Endvr for the money and status, he’s bound by the expectations of his family. I’m not sure if I’ve seen anyone else touch on this detail, but when Touya states that he knows his grandparents sold his mom into marriage so his dad could have a child, we could infer that Touya knows enough to realize that his mother might not have necessarily wanted him.

Not him specifically, but any child — the story has neglected to flesh her out beyond her marriage and motherhood, so we have no idea if Rei wanted to become a mother prior to this arrangement, despite how much she loves her kids now — although it is possible that he might’ve internalized it this way.

So you have Touya, who at least knows with certainty that his father wanted him to exist, yet he comes to understand that his father only wants him if he can meet a specific set of expectations, and if he cannot, he’ll be discarded. If he can’t surpass All Might, he can’t fulfill his reason for existing and his father will have to replace him. So to have his mother urge him to follow a path other than becoming a hero would mean, to Touya, accepting that he is the mistake he fears he is. Of course he isn’t going to respond well to that.

I don’t like when people try to compare Touya’s reaction in this moment to Shouto’s when Rei tells him he isn’t bound by his father’s blood, using that to paint Shouto as the “good” child and Touya as the “bad” one. They didn’t react differently because of any innate sense of goodness or lack thereof -- they reacted differently because the situations are different.

Telling Shouto that he didn’t have to be like his father comforted Shouto, who only knew his father as the bully who hurt his mom. He associated his father, and his father’s fire, with all of that fear and pain -- and thus, he associated the part of himself that took after his father with those feelings. She wasn’t denying his dream of becoming a hero, only assuring him that when he became a hero it could be whatever kind of hero he chose to be, that he wasn’t doomed to be like his father.

Whereas what she tells Touya sounds a lot like what his father told him, which was to give up on being a hero and pursue other aspirations.

Encouraging Shouto to become his own version of a hero still falls in line with what Endvr ultimately wants, which is for Shouto to be a hero capable of surpassing All Might. Whereas this is what happens when Touya continues to train to do that against his father’s wishes:

This is where the framing begins to bother me and where Rei’s characterization becomes inconsistent.

So in this scene from Ch 302, we see Enji abusing his wife for “letting” Touya continue to train, punishing her for her “failure” to stop him. Obviously, none of that is Rei’s fault. If anything, Enji would be more responsible for preventing Touya from hurting himself since he’s the reason his son is hurting himself in the first place.

Moreover, the fact that he hits Rei over this sort of muddies the water of an previously-established narrative. Since the Sports Festival arc, we’ve known that Endvr abused his wife because she tried to interfere with Shouto’s training. It got to the point where she was terrified of her husband and it drove her to a breakdown. Why introduce this new aspect to the abuse, when it was already established that a) he was physically abusive and b) his motivations for abusing her were explicit to the audience?

I’m not saying it doesn’t make sense that a man who hits his wife for one reason could find another reason to do it and justify his actions to himself. And while the scene does portray Endvr in a bad light to show how wrong his actions are, literally draping his figure in shadow, why does it even dare to suggest the idea that Rei was remiss in her duties as a mother? Again, the scene isn’t even necessary, since the narrative has long-since showed the audience that Enji abused his wife.

By itself, the scene would read as further exploration of how Rei was victimized and how it affected her children. When you look at it with the chapter as a whole, though? Remember, this is the chapter where Rei claims that all of the family shares the blame in what happened to Touya, displacing some of the blame that rightfully rests on Enji.

But my major gripe with this scene is how it reframes the sole moment we get of Rei and Touya alone. Because we know that Rei understands Touya, based on her confrontations with her husband in Ch 301 & 302. Rather than encourage him to be what he wants or acknowledge that his father is in the wrong, however, her advice falls in line with what Enji wants -- to stop Touya from training. And this comes after a scene where we see Enji beat his wife when she doesn’t stop Touya from training.

With all that in mind, it could potentially be read as Rei trying stop Touya for the sake of protecting herself and the family -- I don’t think it’s coincidence that in the scene where he hits her that we see Shouto, Fuyumi & Natsuo all as witnesses who are very distressed by what’s happening to their mother -- at the cost of Touya’s need to be validated. And if executed well or at least better than it has here, that wouldn’t be a bad choice of narrative per se, and it would fit into the pattern where the households the villains were raised in -- notably Shigaraki, Dabi & Toga -- mimic the society they live in, just on a smaller scale.

Except. Does that sort of narrative make sense based on what we already know about Rei?

Certainly, it is natural to want to protect yourself under physical and/or emotional duress by appeasing your abuser. This sort of complicated dynamic appears in the Shimura family, too. Just like in the house that Kotaro built, the Todoroki family revolves around the desires of the abuser and is dictated by his whims.

I would argue that Nao does give us a well-written example of this narrative. From the beginning, it’s established that she loves Tenko dearly. But in the house her husband built, there’s no room to love her son as he deserves. She prioritizes the feelings of Tenko’s father for the sake of maintaining peace in the household and this is established quickly and plainly.

Early on in the flashback, Kotaro exerts his control over the house, while Nao + her parents look uncomfortable. Despite this, we watch as they comply with his rules, all at the expense of Tenko’s feelings. When she stands up to Kotaro at last, it is not where Tenko can see and already too late. It’s a painful story, full of regret and sadness, but it is consistent from start to end. Nobody feels out-of-character or there to prop up anybody else.

So why doesn’t Rei feel as consistent in this narrative?

Because it doesn’t fit with everything we knew about Rei prior to her abuser’s subpar redemption arc.

The way she interacts with Touya would make sense, if this was how she was portrayed from the start. However, her behavior in Shouto’s flashback -- where she was first introduced -- contrasts what we get in the later Todoroki flashbacks.

Let’s compare this to the scenes in Ch 302. Here, Rei interferes on Shouto’s behalf. She advocates for her son in front of Shouto where he can hear. She stands up to his bully/villain and tries to protect him, while also validating his feelings in the process. Directly after this, Enji hits her, not for failing to comply with his demands, but for defying him.

It is difficult to reconcile this Rei with the Rei we get in Ch 302. And if you try to find an in-story reason for the inconsistency, the options either do a disservice to Rei or make things even more painful for Touya. But I’m sure most of you have realized that I’m going to suggest a reason for this inconsistency that goes beyond the canon.

Because when Rei was first introduced in the story, Endvr was unequivocally the villain in the Todoroki family, not some misguided patriarch trying to atone for his “past” mistakes. Years later and in the midst of his redemption arc, the narrative seems to be intent on making this man more palatable to readers, and it’s used Rei at every opportunity to prop up his efforts to be better. Often, though, it takes some of the heat off Enji by displacing it onto other family members, most significantly Rei & Touya.

Like, you can literally see the difference in the frame from early in the manga to now:

Ch 39: Endvr trains his five-year-old to the point where he’s throwing up due overextension and being punched by a fully grown adult who is also his father. Rei tries to protect her son and gets slapped by Endvr. All the blames rests squarely on Endvr, who is clearly the aggressor and painted as the villain here.

Ch 302: Endvr hits Rei for not preventing Touya from sneaking out to train, knocking her to the ground. Again, Endvr is clearly the aggressor, but oh this time it’s not driven solely by his selfish desires it’s also cocnern for his son; Rei is the victim but oh she also should have been watching him more closely, and oh well why was Touya going out in the first place, when everyone has told him to stop and he knows his mom will get punished for it?

Honestly, I can understand where some people have mixed feelings over Rei’s character, particularly since the writing has done her such a disservice recently. With that being said, however, it takes a minimum amount of critical thinking to recognize that while you can criticize some choices she made, you cannot hold her to the same standard of accountability as Enji, it’s absurd. The power imbalance was obviously tipped in Endvr’s favor, always.

It is a shame, too, that we can’t have more discussions that don’t turn into some readers (a lot of whom are attempting to make Endvr sound less horrible than he actually was) trying to demonize her. It’s doubly a shame the story itself doesn’t bother to flesh her out as a person, instead using her as a prop, because the complex relationships she has with Touya -- with all her children, really -- has plenty of room for exploration.

Like, there was no reason to add this new dimension of resentment due to her spouting Enji’s words back at Touya, when there was already a source of tension supported by previous canon -- the neglect the Todoroki kids suffered because Rei couldn’t be the parent they needed, due to her declining mental health and eventual breakdown.

Or, if you want to complicate their dynamic further, why not add something that focuses on Rei and has nothing to do with Enji? We learn in the flashbacks that Rei agreed to the marriage more-or-less to please her family, lamenting that she “intended to smile through it to the end,” essentially admitting that her hope was she could grin and bear it. It is telling that she had this attitude before entering her marriage; evidently, she was raised with the idea that she should be acquiescent to her parents’ whims and not express herself if she was only going to be contrary. Maybe she didn’t know how to deal with Touya’s very expressive, very emotional outbursts as a result. And her inability to respond would be the exact opposite of what Touya was seeking.

Not to mention that Touya died, and for the last decade, Rei was under the impression she had lost her son forever. He died while she was hospitalized, torn up with guilt over what she did to Shouto, only to find out that her other son died in a frankly horrific manner, and she could do nothing. By the time she would’ve found out, it was too late to even try to do anything. I can’t imagine what she must’ve felt in terms of regret alone, plus her grief. And I’m still mad we were robbed of her reaction to Touya being alive, because now suddenly there is a chance to do something, to change what was once written in stone.

Or what about Touya’s feelings for his mother, that have yet to be given much depth? As the oldest and most aware of his existence, it seems like he was the first to truly understand his mother’s situation and I can’t help but wonder: If Touya knew he vessel for his father’s ambition, and his mother was sold into role of creating/caring for him, did he question her love for him? Once he found out one parent’s love was conditional, it wouldn’t be a leap for him to consider it for the other. And yet if that’s true, Dabi doesn’t appear to hold any ill-will towards her for that. He was angry at her hypocrisy, because he knows she should understand, but her words to him didn’t reflect that.

All of that is fascinating and so much better than what we got in canon, so far at least. I’m hoping for them interact in the present at least once before the end of the series, and I think they will, but as to how satisfying a reconciliation it’ll be, I guess we’ll have to wait to see how the Todoroki plotline progresses from here on out.

#bnha #touya todoroki #rei todoroki #bnha meta #bnha analysis #this took way too long because I kept having more thoughts which made it even longer lol #and it actually gave me another idea for a touya & rei meta post but this is already a monster so that'll have to be its own separate post

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maggot-monger · 3 years

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i’m just validating myself here so i can go back to enjoying something i like that i’ve kind of dug myself into a hole with lately :p regrettably earnest discussion of spn lucifer and fandom below

i can say whatever about why late seasons lucifer doesn’t sit right with me, but the fact of the matter is that that is how lucifer canonically is in later seasons, and like, fine. however, it is also true that 1) supernatural’s lore, writing, and characterization is not consistent in almost any way, and so attempts to try to make them consistent are admirable but ultimately foolhardy (i say, as someone with a long and ongoing record of jumping through hoops to make spn lore/characterization make sense), 2) even if everything made perfect sense in spn all the time, it is still fair to have gotten attached to an earlier version of a character and to be sad and in denial about the direction they ended up going (to character jump for an example, it does make sense that sam got more passive after everything he went through, but plenty of people are sad about that, and prefer to imagine that it went differently for him — or even choose to ignore later seasons entirely in order to focus on the characterization they prefer from the earlier seasons).

s5 lucifer reads differently if you want to include late seasons’ characterization in your interpretation than if you prefer not to. some people weren’t surprised by the direction the character went, and welcomed what they got. some people found it to be inconsistent with the character from earlier seasons. both responses are fair, but people with different views are just going to react differently to attempts to analyze the same material because they are differently motivated.

personally, i stopped watching the show in large part because i didn’t like the direction it was going with angel lore and angel characterization. personally, i liked the angels best when they were very inhuman, and dealt with morality differently from how the human characters did, and were in many ways deeply unpredictable to the audience/the winchesters as a result, regardless of their levels of internal predictability. this was a problem for me with the angels across the board, but it’s most jarring to me with the character of lucifer, who, to me, was a deeply interesting character due to his intense moral complexity, his wild swings between human relatability and extreme alienness, and his perspectives/motivations that just don’t track easily from a creature-of-earth viewpoint. to me, later seasons messed around with that in a way that made the character, and the character’s interactions with others, a lot less interesting. i understand that others do not share this opinion, and that some people feel that the later seasons’ additions made the character more interesting, and like, cool, good for them, i’m glad they can enjoy something i don’t.

i am not personally disturbed by the idea of lucifer being a character that hurts others, deliberately or through being so very Other. that’s something he canonically does in every season he’s in, and i enjoy it that the character is very dangerous and can be cruel. however, i do have a preferred characterization that i built from intensive scrutiny of season 5 that is internally consistent with that material, and there are certain types of dangerousness and cruelty that fit with that characterization and other types that don’t. it is not the only internally consistent interpretation of the character with that material; it is not necessarily the most interesting to anybody other than me, but it is mine, and i find it interesting, and it does make sense (and again, yes, it is clown behavior to get pissy about anything in supernatural making sense). to me, what is disturbing is that late seasons lucifer imo reads as less celestial and more animal, his relationships with others less ambiguous and more categorizable. and i don’t like it! and it’s fine that i don’t like it. it’s fine that others do, but it’s fine that i don’t, and it doesn’t mean i’m wubbifying the character or whatever that i feel let down in the particular ways i feel let down (and, of course, it’s fine to wubbify characters if that’s what you want to do).

#tagging as #fandom salt #even though it's not really fandom i'm being salt about here #my intention is for this to be the last time i make a post betraying the extent to which i have not been good at ignoring petty fandom stuff #i think this is probably more sane than my past posts on the topic at least which bodes well :p #spn thots #lucifer

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mnemo-li · 3 years

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Calebros: A Rant About My Favorite VTM NPC

I do love the newer Vampire: the Masquerade content, but sometimes the writing leaves a lot to be desired. A prominent example is - what in my opinion is - the butchery of Calebros’ character in Beckett's Jyhad Diary.

While I do love seeing the more brusque side of Calebros’ personality, I don’t think I’ve ever recalled him being this vulgar in the original Clan Novels. He was definitely not dropping the f-bombs left and right, and even his gruff manner had more to do with dry humor, sarcasm, and keeping up the dignified image fit for a clan leader. I do realize that this series of chat is set much after his whole ordeal as Prince of New York is over, so maybe the experience really changed him. However, the in-universe explanation of his drastic shift in personality is lacking– it is most likely the result of a change in writers which led to inconsistent writing and characterization.

Here are some examples of scenes that presents his characterization in a more nuanced light.

Scene 1: The Nictuku Accusation

“They would have eaten me, I tell you!” “I believe you, Jeremiah,” Calebros said in a forced, calm tone. He was tired of nodding politely, of reassuring his clanmate. Jeremiah could be a difficult person to like at times. This was rapidly becoming one of those times. “Don’t you humor me!” Jeremiah snapped. “I’ve been coming to you about this for weeks now.” Seems more like years, Calebros thought. “And still you’ve done nothing. Nothing!” Jeremiah paced around, gesticulating wildly. There was no second chair by Calebros’s desk, and for this very reason. He mostly didn’t like guests, didn’t want guests, didn’t want to encourage them to sit down, to take a load off and stay for a while. Most anyone who had reason or inclination to visit Calebros was irate, complaining, or tiresome. Jeremiah happened to be all three presently. “That is not true,” Calebros assured him. Jeremiah snorted in disgusted. “What, then? Tell me. What have you done?” “I have considered quite carefully your report.” “Ha! Like I said, nothing. ‘Considered my report…’” Jeremiah repeated contemptuously. “This is what I think of you and your reports—” he said, grabbing a handful of papers from the nearest stack on Calebros’s desk. Jeremiah made to fling them into the air— Instantly, Calebros’s hand shot out and latched around his visitor’s wrist. Talons pricked undead flesh ever so slightly. “Believe me,” said Calebros evenly. “You do not want to do that.” They faced each other for a moment, one monstrous creature restraining the hand of another. Jeremiah’s fingers, biting into the papers, were long and grotesquely thin, little more than needles of bone. His entire body was thin and hard and covered with knots, bulging masses of hardened tissue, like an old, gnarled swamp tree. Finally he stopped resisting Calebros and returned the reports to the desk. “I’m sorry,” Jeremiah said and resumed his pacing, just as intently if less frenetically.

This is from the Nosferatu clan novel. Here, Jeremiah is trying to get Calebros to believe that there truly are Nictukus dwelling in the sewers. Calebros is, frankly, tired of hearing the folk tale especially when he has other pressing matters to deal with. Yet, even with his patience paper thin, he does not lash out at his broodmate. He is shown to be deeply introverted, anti-social perhaps, but he does not let his own nature affect his duties. As the Nosferatu primogen - as the leader of the clan - he has to listen to the concerns of his family, no matter how absurd. He knows when to express his authority, and he never abuses it. Again, no f-bombs dropped.

Scene 2: The Salt Lake

“Geez, what am I, your mother?” Emmett asked. “No,” Calebros said. “You are my brother, my broodmate.” “Brood, litter, whatever. We were both chosen to suck the old blood tit, so who am I to ask questions?” Calebros sighed. Blood tit, indeed. “That’s not how you remember it.” Now it was Emmett’s turn to sigh. “Don’t do this. Don’t get all… You always do this, get all touchy-feely we’re-all-brothers-in-the-blood, when you soak your head, blah, blah, blah…” “Make light of it if you will—” “I will. Thank you very much. Got enough salt here?” Emmett flicked some at Calebros.

This is from the Nosferatu clan novel. Here, Calebros has just came up from his meditation within the mud hole / salt lake. He is shown to be introspective and even sentimental. In terms of character voice, his more poised speaking style and inner monologue is contrasted against Emmett’s rough, colloquial style.

Other Sources

In the Calebros graphic novel, a similar scene is shown where Calebros is depicted to be trying and failing to remember his past before he became a vampire, losing his mind as he mixes up imagination with false memories. His inner dialogue in the graphic novel shows him saying:

“Do I tell him that his prince, his... compatriot?, is losing his mind? Never.”

This very much reflects his true nature. In Vampire: the Masquerade, there is a system of nature vs demeanor. According to his character sheet, his demeanor is that of a “director�� while his nature is a “martyr (penitent)”.

Director: To the Director, nothing is worse than chaos and disorder. The Director seeks to be in charge, adopting a "my way or the highway" attitude on matters of decision-making. The Director is more concerned with bringing order out of strife, however, and need not be truly "in control" of a group to guide it. Coaches, teachers, and many political figures exemplify the Director Archetype.

Martyr: The Martyr suffers for his cause, enduring his trials out of the belief that his discomfort will ultimately improve others' lot. Some Martyr simply want the attention or sympathy their ordeals engender, while others are sincere in their cause, greeting their opposition with unfaltering faith in their own beliefs. Many Inquisitors, staunch idealists, and outcasts are Martyr Archetypes.

Penitent: The Penitent exists to atone for the grave sin she commits simply by being who she is. Penitents have either low self-esteem or legitimate, traumatic past experiences, and feel compelled to "make up" for inflicting themselves upon the world. Penitent Archetypes aren't always religious in outlook; some truly want to scourge the world of the grief they bring to it. Repentant sinners, persons with low self-esteem, and remorseful criminals are examples of the Penitent Archetype.

All of these quotes, if feel, matches very much with the Calebros I knew from the clan novel saga. Below are also a set quotes detailing Calebros’ inner dialogue in his graphic novel.

“As prince, only I can save them, only I can keep them from looking where they shouldn’t. A force exists underneath this city, sleeping, and it must remain so, lest we all perish.

“Augustin, my sire, left us to investigate the Nictuku, and came back to me with this information. Could this be Gehenna? The Final Nights? When the Ancients awake to devour their errant children? Can it be stopped? Should it be stopped? Everything that is done is a hope of staving off the inevitable. Why?”

“My embrace into this world was a foregone conclusion, made for me by Augustin. It is no different for anyone else. Why then do we not welcome the coming Armageddon? Exchange one world for another. It sounds almost painless, except I would never accept such a course, neither would my fellow Nosferatu. Neither would my fellow Kindred, for that matter.”

He is incredibly contemplative, and determined too, willing to fight against the inevitable apocalypse of the vampires. As long as his clan and the Kindred as a whole does not give up, does not give in the the despair of Gehenna, he too will be willing to fight for the survival of others.

Scene 3: Against a Master Manipulator

The character of Hesha is... complex. I see him as sort of a sweet-talking, cunning, charismatic cult leader. Here is a dialogue between him and Calebros.

“No harm was done,” Hesha said softly, his voice still the slightest bit scratchy from the ordeal he’d undergone. “As you say,” said Calebros, not looking up and continuing to write furiously. “You concede without agreeing.” Hesha laughed quietly. Calebros’s head whipped up. Angry words were ready on his lips, but the Egyptian’s smile was not mocking. The Setite obviously realized the weakness of his position, physically and strategically, as well as the fragility of their alliance. “Candor is important between friends,” Hesha said. “Otherwise, perceived insults take hold and fester.” “I am quite accustomed to festering,” Calebros said curtly. “I fear that I’m growing so as well,” Hesha said, squeezing one of the boils that stood raised about one of his many open wounds until the canker popped, and frothy pus ran down his arm. He laughed quietly again. Calebros punctuated a written sentence with a particularly violent period. “Your woman willfully disobeyed her instructions.” “She exercised discretion,” Hesha countered. “She blatantly disregarded the safety of my people.” “If anything had gone wrong,” Hesha said, “it would be Pauline lying torn on the ground. Your people would have faded into the night, none the worse for wear.” Calebros fumed. Probably Hesha was correct—but the Nosferatu was not about to admit as much. “I will speak with her,” Hesha said reasonably. “She has not encountered those of your clan before. She’s not aware of how strongly your predilection for…” “Cowardice?” Calebros suggested accusingly. “Prudence, I was going to say. She’s not aware of how strongly your predilection for prudence runs.” Good choice of words, Calebros thought. But, then, Hesha always chose his words carefully, always seemed to know just the right thing to say. It was discomforting in a way, how easily the Setite could alleviate tension with just a few words. Go ahead, Eve. Take a bite of the apple. Adam might like some too. But it seemed that they needed one another—and that outweighed their natural and mutual tendencies to distrust one another. Just barely.

Hesha’s actions managed to get under Calebros’ nerves, as seen in his curt speech, his furious writing, his accusatory reply to Hesha. He is angry for the safety of his clan (which, as seen from all the other sources, is something very dear to him). He is even shown to be stubborn, refusing to admit that Hesha was correct. Even still, he keeps his head rather than loose his cool completely. He also realises Hesha’s smooth words for what they are- manipulation. He is willing to compromise and form a sort of alliance with Hesha too, despite of his distrust and personal feelings.

Calebros and Ramona

I found the strange friendship Calebros had with the Gangrel Ramona to be incredibly touching, and tragic due to the turns it took towards the end (which I won’t spoil). Below are some excerpts from the Nosferatu clan novel showing Ramona’s initial meeting with Calebros and his later assessments of her character.

Neither Pauline nor the other girl, Ramona, had been subjected to the full brunt of facing a Nosferatu. Not until now, that is, when they were brought into Calebros’s presence. He did not hide his true appearance from them. And he could read the dismay, the fear and disgust, on their faces. Of the two, Pauline made the worthier attempt, attempt, to maintain her demeanor of professional detachment—perhaps Ruhadze had taught her well. The Gangrel, unsurprisingly, was not so couth. She gawked, both at Calebros and at Hesha in his current condition, and she hid her revulsion quite poorly, if she tried at all. […] Ramona looked at Calebros again, a more measured look this time, trying to see through the deformities. Good girl, Calebros thought. Young and brash, but not stupid.

Ramona reached for a calendar on Calebros’s desk, but tossed it back when she realized it was from 1972. “That’s still a whole month, and nobody knows where Leopold was that whole time. He could have gone back to the cave.” Smart girl, Calebros thought. He was leading her along the same path of reconstructing events that he had followed.

He compliments her intelligence again and again, and seems genuinely fond of her. Which I believe is why, after he became Prince of New York, he allows her a private audience with him to which he offered her a safe passage out of town which she rejects, viewing his actions as a betrayal. Below is an excerpt from what I think is the Clan Brujah novel.

The hunched form stepped forward, leaning heavily against the seatbacks as he came. Ramona kept straining to pick out the sound of broken gasps that must accompany such labored progress, but the air did not stir. "You had requested an audience, my dear. A private audience. I have gone to some pains to secure a place where we might be alone. Privacy is such an indulgence here. All too often, I find myself unable to justify the expense of importing it. And there is always someone else jealous of such decadence. But you have not come to hear of my distractions. Sit here, next to me, and tell me why you have come.”

[…]

“Calebros chuckled low, a sound like an engine turning. "No, I don't imagine you would. I will miss your straightforward style, Ramona. I find it refreshing. But already you know that there is no longer any place for you here. In the midst of battle—against the Sabbat and later, against Leopold and the Eye—we could afford certain marriages of convenience. But these partnerships will not survive the challenges of peacetime. Your associates, Mr. Ruhadze and Mr. Ravana, they found themselves in much the same position. Each has already left New York.”

[…]

“Calebros was silent for a time, letting her wind down. "I'm sorry I couldn't help you with the Eye, Ramona. And I'm sorry you will have to leave us. Believe me, I would like nothing better than to find a place for you here. I will have sore need of people who can be relied upon in the nights ahead. But you know what you would be up against if you remained here— the posturing, the none-too-subtle snubbing, the outright backstabbing. You are a rarity among our kind, Ramona. But because you are different, you will be hated and eventually destroyed if you stay among the society of the damned. Know that I will remember our time together fondly. If I can be of any assistance to you in relocating..." "No, I understand. It's 'thanks for your help; here's your bus ticket.' Well, I don't need any of your favors. I don't like the strings attached to them. And I resent the fact that you think I'm so stupid that I'll let you screw me over and then thank you for it." "Ramona...”

Again, even during his tenure as Prince of New York he is so damn eloquent, I definitely can’t fathom the word fuck ever slipping out of his mouth. He is compassionate, helping Ramona perhaps for future gains too, but mainly I believe he genuinely wants to do something right, give her the happy ending she deserves for once.

Moreover, I have a soft spot for this quote of Calebros pondering about Ramona’s nature, why she’s always so angry at the world, why every word out of her mouth sounds like an accusation. It showcases well his world-weariness, a cynical attitude that hides his concerns for others.

What have you seen that makes you so angry, so bitter, little one? Calebros wondered. Family killed? Have you been betrayed? How many times, I wonder. You’d best get over it, if you hope to survive.

So... yeah. I’d pay money to see an accurate portrayal of Calebros in a newer media otherwise I might have to write my own fanfic pairing my OC with him

#vampire: the masquerade #new york by night #calebros #vtm

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septiembrre · 3 years

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Not to be negative nancy but. ... I feel like s1/s2 they gave Rio more to do like even is s3. Now he barely gets any screen time. Like i know hes never had alot of screen time before but now i feel like its gotten worse. And now hes kidnapping Annie? MM does the best he can with what they give him but its just... Rly tired of the one note villain storyline that they keep writing for him. This show stays letting me down. :/

I hear your frustration.

I was thinking about the S1/S2/S3 thing, too! For me it’s not necessarily the quantity of screen time so much as the quality of Rio’s scenes and how his character is often transparently used as a plot device?

In other shows — gosh, I’m not sure if you’ve watched Glow or Insecure, but those are the ensemble casts that come to mind at the moment —characters can dip out for an episode or even a few episodes at a time so other folks on the cast can shine. I think it could be really cool to have entire clusters of episodes dedicated to just the three leads or a cluster of episodes where each does a deep dive on a relationship (like, a Beth + Ruby episode, Ruby + Annie, Beth + Annie, a Ruby + Stan ep or the devolution of Death 💀, a ~B+rio episode, or a three leads with their kids/parenthood episode (lol, I’m getting carried away)) where the action revolves around the focus of whatever dynamic is being highlighted and not have the pressure to move every plot line. It was cool that the show started to explore that partially with the two episodes tonight and the greater focus on the three leads (especially 3x11!!).

In the same vein, if Rio’s main function is upping the stakes on the girls and he’s gonna show up for 30 seconds to a minute of each episode to do it, maybe they should consider having him fully disappear for a few episodes. That way when he shows back up to play Big Bad, he can have a substantive scene where his threat has more weight. The show is very invested in the twisted antagonism between him and Beth and I think giving it more breathing room could let it really shine.

The surface-level plot-device stuff coupled with leaving off one episode where Rio and Beth are okay and then picking up a day—to a few days later with another Very Serious threat feels less like a dynamic plot and more like inconsistency to me personally. I almost wish Good Girls would embrace more of a campy tone around the crime because I mean… we know our three leads aren’t really going anywhere. Generally, I’d love for the women and Rio to be less antagonistic for a spell, and try to intentionally work together for mutual gain — but I don’t think we’ll see much of it at this point with how the story is set up at this point mid-season. Content for the fic writers?

One last thing — I will say that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that the show runners claimed that Rio is in every episode in Season 4. I don’t want him in every episode with the catch that Rio is allocated a 30 second rote villain scene. It feels disingenuous and ultimately sets me up to be let down, too. I am curious about the next episode as it is clearly advertising a Rio storyline… but, I’m worried about the characterization and it playing into the one-note villain stuff you mentioned.

Eh, I’m committed to watching until the end of the season so vamos a ver.

#this is me waxing on a wishlist #read at your own risk #gg negativity #gg concrit #Rio #this is a thoughts and opinion piece

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lonelyghosts-stuff · 3 years

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Loki-Character Analysis (and Rant lol)

Idk if anyone will see this and I frankly don't care too much, just kind of ranting and venting. (for context I am not necessarily in the healthiest head space as of now so my emotions could be more extreme than they normally would be)

Loki's death is really hitting hard for me again. The fact he went from a mischievous kid who just wanted his father's recognition, to sabotaging his brother's coronation to lead up to defeating the Jotuns for his father and proving himself worthy as Thor, in the process finding out his life was a lie and that he himself was a Jotun who was abandoned, to giving up his life only to be found by Thanos to be threatened and manipulated (idc what anyone says, Loki was definitely tortured during his time with Thanos. How else could you explain how sickly and gaunt he looked when he first showed up in Avengers?) to losing his mother and protecting a mere mortal just because his brother cared for her, also willing to sacrifice himself for her and his brother, to finally having a period of success, only to witness his father die, see his home destroyed, and then ultimately get killed by Thanos as he tried to kill him to protect Thor.

He had an arc. He grew. And then he died. While we will get Loki in the new Disney+ series, he will never be the same Loki unless they find a way to implant the experiences of the prime Loki into this one. While I have no doubt he will be shown key points of his alter variant self's life, seeing them from an outer perspective cannot substitute for the experiences themselves.

Loki was such a complicated character who, while sometimes seeming inconsistent, was consistently inconsistent within the nature of his chaotic and mischievous character. He cared. He wanted recognition and to be viewed as equal to his brother. Along the way he got lost and found and twisted even more. Notice how in Thor 1, he never killed anyone other than Jotuns. While he did endanger other humans, he never killed them despite being easily able to do so with the destroyer automaton. And when it came to his brother, he had the perfect chance to blast him, but resorted to a backhand; and while that could have proven to be fatal, when it came down to it, Loki couldn't bring himself to do it the easy way. Deep down he still wanted to be on equal terms. That's why when Thor returned to Asgard, Loki kept instigating Thor, trying to rile him up so he would fight him. He ended up resorting to threatening harm upon Jane just to get his brother to treat him as equal and a worthy opponent. He denied familial connection to Odin and Thor, trying to convince himself that the reason he will never be viewed as equal with Thor is that he is a Jotun, the "monster parents tell their children about". In the end, when Odin still wouldn't show any more sympathy to Loki or try to reason with him, instead just telling him "no", Loki gave up. He was willing to accept whatever happened to him when he let go and he fell into the collapsing portal of the bifrost.

Cut to the first avengers, he is clearly very changed. He's sickly, gaunt, and weakened, needing support just getting onto the back of the truck for Clint Barton to drive him away on. His eyes are sunken in, he's greasy and slow, and borderline sociopathic. He clearly experienced something that turned him into this. We already know the scepter influenced his mind and that Thanos threatened him eternal suffering that would make pain look sweet if he didn't get the tesseract. But I steadfast refuse any statement someone could give me saying he wasn't tortured or manipulated by Thanos or his followers. Loki quickly goes in for the attack when he arrives on Earth, killing without hesitation or regret. When Thor confronts him on Stark tower, for even just the most fleeting second, he pauses. He knows what he's done and that he's gone too far. Even when he doesn't back down, he doesn't try to kill Thor. He simply, or, well, "simply" stabs him and runs off knowing very well it would take much more than that to kill his brother.

When he is brought to Asgard for imprisonment, his pride and guilt eat away at him. He refuses to acknowledge what he did as wrong to anyone, but he is very well aware of his actions the weight of them. The person who affects him the most being his mother, the one who always showed love for him and Thor equally. He tries to hide this knowledge, denying her being his mother as well since he is of Jotun blood, but he cares for her greatly still and can't help but feel guilty for how she sees him now. He still strives for chaos and when the Dark Elves invade, he mischievously points them in the direction of the throne room, not knowing their full capabilities, but living for the potential chaos to ensue. Of course this leads to his dear mother being killed. Loki is furious, broken, and lost. His actions have gone too far, causing the woman he loved the most and felt loved him more than anyone else to die. Thor can easily see through his illusions proving that Loki has shown his adoration for Frigga enough that even Thor knows of it. When they finally get to the Dark World, Loki tries getting under Thor's skin again, but also in an attempt to understand him. He prods at Thor's feelings for Jane and reminds him that her life is but a brief moment in their own lifetimes. They bicker and scuffle on the ride to their destination, but it is ultimately resolved by Loki's declaration that Thor can trust his rage, his rage at Frigga's death. When there, we see Jane in direct danger twice. Both times, Loki throws himself in harms way to protect her, seeing her both as vulnerable but also something that Thor cares for. Loki then proceeds to save his brother's life, being willing to sacrifice his own for him as well. Knowing his wound is not fatal, but also being fully aware of his skills in trickery and illusions, not only does Loki trick Thor into believing he is dead, but he also takes the opportunity to try to relieve his conscience; he apologizes. He then follows it up by saying that he didn't do what he did to make Odin proud or acknowledge him, not this time. He did it for the one who truly cared for him and showed it, Frigga. This gave Loki the opportunity to discreetly get back to Asgard and exile Odin and take his place. Now, Loki got the respect and adoration he felt he deserved. But it would only last for so long.

When Thor gets wind of Loki's antics, they both find themselves eventually facing down Odin and him passing away, but not before telling them that he's proud of them and loves them. Even Loki tears up here. He feels somewhat that it's his fault for Odin's passing, but he also feels empty after finally hearing Odin give him what he thought he always wanted. Hela arrives and Loki tries to reason with her; perhaps thinking he can relate to her and handle the situation. Unfortunately, Loki and Thor get separated for a while, eventually reuniting, but on opposite ends of the social class on Sakaar. Loki could easily continue to bask in his new status over Thor, but still decides to help him when h found him in the waiting area for the fighters (even though he eventually tried to betray him later when he realized he could regain what status he had and that he viewed escape futile and pointless with Hela still around). In the end, despite him having the chance to escape and run off, he returns to Asgard to help fight. He even proves key in defeating Hela as he revives Surtur, also grabbing the tesseract on the way. He doesn't hide. He doesn't show bitterness. He returns to the ship alongside his brother. (despite how much Waititi gave a middle finger to the writing and characterization of the characters, I am still trying my best to piece good Loki moments from Thor Ragnarok and fit it into Loki’s personality given that Ragnarok is considered MCU canon).

Thanos attacks. He has Thor in a precarious situation, threatening to kill him if Loki doesn't give him the tesseract. Loki tries to hold out as long as possible, knowing the consequences of giving it to the mad titan, but eventually yields when he sees no other way to save his brother; after giving it to Thanos, he immediately goes to Thor's side to protect him. When Thanos took down Hulk, Loki realizes the only chance they have to get out of there alive is to use his trickery. He proclaims himself Loki, prince of Asgard and, most impressively, Odinson. He accepts who he is. He acknowledges he is the rightful heir to Jotunheim, but he also knows that, even if not by blood, he is Thor's brother, and Odin and Frigga's son. Unfortunately, he rushes to action quite recklessly, potentially undermining the power Thanos has already with even just the two infinity stones he as acquired. Loki is killed. Neck snapped from the pressure of Thanos choking him. He died trying to protect his brother. Trying to fight for the good fight. Died at the hands of the man who twisted him in the first place and promised him suffering if he didn't deliver the tesseract.

Loki may have started out as a dark antagonist, then to a twisted villain, and eventually progressing to an Anti-Hero, but he died a hero.

This just breaks me. He was such a loveable and complicated character. He had many faults, faults he battled with every day. When it came down to it, he threw his own life down for his brother.

It upsets me he died so quickly and seemingly so pointlessly within the first ten minutes of Infinity War. But he also served a great, if I may, glorious purpose. He brought the Avengers together in the first place, and died trying to make sure another one of them, and his own brother, could live on to fight and stop Thanos.

Loki will always be my favorite character and hero and villain simultaneously in the MCU. And I couldn't thank Tom Hiddleston enough if I got the chance for his stellar performance of this fantastic and complicated character who helped bring the Avengers together, even if unintentionally.

#Loki #Loki Odinson #Loki Laufeyson #Marvel #MCU #Marvel Cinematic Universe #The Avengers #Avengers #Thor #Thor Dark World #Thor Ragnarok #Avengers Infinity War #Avengers Endgame #Avengers End Game #writing #analysis #character analysis

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dangan-meme-palace · 4 years

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Do you find Saihara's characterization weird in chapter 6? Because I do :( He's become super confident, optimistic, and leader-like too fast, especially if you compare to ch5 and before...I understand that in the last chapter all protags get pumped up to end the killing game but...he's quoting Momota and he also developed a 'hunch' like him...even Harukawa says 'sometimes you're so much like Kaito' pls no I like Saihara the way he is, meaning, not like Momota :( but that's just my opinion! ^^

Shuichi's characterization is all over the place. It's not even like... "he's inconsistent because humans are inconsistent" or whatever, it's literally just that his personality changes whenever the narrative needs it to without anything but loose, barely-there excuses to try and justify why it happens.

Chapter 1:

No problems with believing in his detective work, he's actually quite shockingly confident in them for how much he downplays them.

His actual problem is not thinking his skills are where they should be according to professional standards, which is an accurate assessment if the rest of the game is anything to go by actually.

Calls Kaito a reckless idiot for doing something reckless and idiotic. This is the only time he does this.

Learns a lesson?? I guess?? The lesson was apparently supposed to be "don't be afraid to reach for the truth" but it came off more like "you shouldn't let everyone die just because you liked Kaede the most, picking favorites and having bias is bad because you have a duty to remain unbiased so everyone doesnt die"

Then everyone conveniently forgets that he was willing to let them die.

Chapter 1 was the best for his characterization except for the trial. I wish he had acted like this throughout the entire game.

Let him investigate. Dear god why doesn't the detective investigate, or even cast doubt?

Chapter 2:

Kaito is starting to become his Bro now. He's not super biased like in later chapters, but you can start to see it happening.

This is the chapter where he tells everyone not to let their biases get in the way of logic, which is funny considering what he's like in other chapters.

Big sad about Kaede, but a few of the characters (Ryoma, Tenko) comfort him so he's choosing to turn this tragedy into a growth moment. I guess it's kinda like what Chihiro did, except a girl had to die for it and he didn't get brained with a dumbbell at the end.

He's the nicest to everyone in this chapter. Don't worry, it won't last long :)

If he had kept the weird sort of optimism he had during this chapter plus the logical thinking instead of leaning into the angst he might've actually developed and Kaede's death might've been worth a damn.

Chapter 3

Maki gets the spotlight so there's not much to say except for the fact that he's gotten super awkward and is getting progressively dumber.

Honestly Maki is kind of right when she keeps calling him a dumbass for asking questions with very obvious answers.

Literally how the fuck did he ever solve infidelity cases when he can't even figure out shit that's this basic.

Smh.

Oh yeah, the odd hopefulness is gone now. It's buried next to my hope of him turning out to be an interesting character.

Put your hat back on if you're gonna angst again emo boy.

Investigation? Dont know her. I only know the Grind 💯 and hanging out with the Bros 😤👊

Chapter 4:

One of his worst chapters. I fucking hate this chapter.

Everyone patted him on the back before the trial and it felt shoehorned in. I'm not even sure why they did it honestly?

Kokichi = Evil

Kaito & Maki = Good

But dont worry guys, he's totally not biased or anything! (/s)

He's mega biased.

During the trial he has a lot of confidence, like the good kind he had back in Chapter 2. Especially when he lied and when he stood his ground against Kaito. He'll be punished by the narrative for going against Kaito, but for now I'll enjoy his limp-dicked rebellion.

Apparently he cares for Gonta except he never once talked to him during the main story and even insulted Gonta in his head during their FTEs. When did he start to care about Gonta? He didn't, but now he does I guess.

Chapter 5:

Another bad chapter. Hate this too

Officially graduated from Kaito's Bro to Kaito's Simp.

Also his confidence is entirely dependent on Kaito. When Kaito wants him to do something, he's sure Kaito's plan will work and gives him all of his support. If Kaito expresses displeasure, he's ashamed of himself and has no confidence. I-... y'know sometimes I genuinely worry about their dynamic.

Kokichi = Evil ×2 combo

No detective work or reasoning. Why would the gofer project want a cosplayer to go to space and preserve humanity? Or an ex murderer? Or an assassin? Or a detective? Are they going to be solving space crimes? Shuichi should have been so god damn suspicious- the MOST suspicious, even- but he's practically braindead at this point in the story.

Investigation skills, when will you return from the war?

Goes from suicidal to "uwu I'm a hopeful student of Hope's Peak Academy" way too quickly for someone with supposed confidence issues.

Seriously, how did he go from "the world has been destroyed and I cant fix it so I might as well die" to "yeah! we will definitely fix it! we dont know how yet, but we'll totally do it because we're Ultimates even though in Chapter 1 I didnt even think I deserved to be an Ultimate but shhhh" so quickly?

Kiibo and Shuichi kinda sounded like Kaede when they saw the Hope's Peak Flashback and it's so fucking weird because there's no justification for it

Chapter 6:

Literally what was this chapter

Why did it take Kiibo threatening to blow up the school to get him to investigate the mastermind again? 9 people have died since Chapter 1, but he acted as though he couldn't do anything about it. He even says he "can only help after people die", but Chapter 1 disproved that because he literally almost caught the mastermind without anyone dying so-

At least he investigated, I guess. It's sad that a detective investigating is considered a miracle, but here we are.

During the trial he's rapidly switching from hopeful to suicidal to hopeful again and it gives me so much whiplash, like god damn. Chill out a bit, buddy.

Much like the now-late Kaito, Shuichi tries to convince everyone to die with him to make some sort of stand against TDR. Somehow this worked and they also somehow didn't die and we aren't given justification for either.

The confidence came from the fact that the narrative needed him to be confident. That's it. There's literally no justification for this. There's no justification for anything, honestly.

What even was that ending, like what the fuck was that? None of their arcs got wrapped up at all...

So basically

Shuichi is confident but he's not but only when Kaito believes in him but he can stand against Kaito when he needs to and also he's not actually confident and Kaito needs to baby him. Shuichi is also not biased because he learned a lesson about that, unless your name is Kaito, Maki, or Kokichi, in which case he is incredibly biased to the point of putting the lives of other people on the line, but he wants everyone to survive because he learned a lesson about that. He's also incredibly dismissive of most of the cast in his head, to the point of being cold, but it should be noted that Shuichi really cares about his friends and is really nice and supportive of others. He's a big doormat except for when he doesn't want to be, unless it involves Kaito, because then he is always a sidekick except for when he isn't.

Hope that cleared things up! As you can see Shuichi is a very consistent character :) (/s)

-tech

#asks #defective detective #ive probably missed a lot but im going off my bad memory #i gotta rewatch the whole game again sooner or later #its been a while #but this is what i can remember anyway

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ichihime · 4 years

Text

ANONYMOUS ASKED: I was following along a thread on twitter and an anti said when Ichigo laid dead on the ground with a hole in his chest in the Lust arc, that he didn’t say “I can hear her..stand up..I will protect her” before hollowfying. They claim he instead said “I can hear..stand up..I have to protect” using no pronounce directed at Orihime, hence NOT coming back from the dead because he wants to protect her specifically but because of his instincts to protect and he would’ve done it for any of his friends. They also said that Orihime didn’t scream “help me” but instead said “help” which triggered Ichigo’s instincts to protect, making him rise from the dead, hence once again making it clear this was never about Orihime specifically but about Ichigo’s instincts responding when hearing a voice in need (and this voice could’ve been from anyone amongst his friends) and how the hollow would not allow him to die regardless. Basically the English translations are incorrect and the raw version in kanji never used pronounces during these scenes. Is this correct and how would you respond to this?

There are a couple really important factors to address in this translation and why its English counterpart would supplement with pronouns specifically referring to Orihime; first, that Ichigo’s speech is meant to be broken and fairly incoherent because it’s conveying the idea that he as a human is focused on this sole objective as he’s dying. Second, that in Japanese, there isn’t necessarily a requirement for subject pronouns to form a sentence talking about a subject (the subject in question being Orihime) —this is a particular grammar rule that has no translatable equivalent in the English language, because they’re ultimately different structures entirely. I drop this phrase a LOT on here, but again, cultural context is important. Since you also sent this ask to my friend @ichinoue, there’s been some really excellent fan feedback about the structure of Japanese language and how it differs from English —this post in particular.

Now — onto the actual question:

I think there’s definitely a possibility that Ichigo would have done this for his other friends, but only if this moment had also been preceded by Ichigo vowing to “definitely protect” or “protect without fail” those other friends. Kubo did write a scene like this, and made a pretty big deal about it, but that scene involves one specific character —not all of his friends.

This hollow transformation was written as a climax in Ichigo’s narrative arc for the Hueco Mundo saga —as the ongoing theme during this arc was about his struggle with his identity against his inner hollow as an ever-present threat. This could not be a more clear theme throughout this specific arc. There’s a lot of specific focus placed upon this struggle, his cooperation and subsequent training with the Visoreds, his lack of control despite his best efforts, and his juxtaposition of this struggle for control in his actual fights against the Arrancar and Espada. This is important to note, because in response to this, there is only one scene with one character that both:

Involves him promising to “definitely protect” or “protect without fail” a friend he cares deeply for (using the same character for “protect” that’s his namesake, no less —I’ll get into this tidbit more further down).

Functions as a foreshadowing tool, and is later double-downed upon as a foreshadowing tool by the same character as mentioned above.

When it comes down to it, the grammatical inconsistencies that come from translating between languages don’t have any particular bearing on this specific scene, because the intent was already made clear as early as Chapter 196. That’s how foreshadowing works —even if we as the reader don’t realize it’s happening until after the fact. What’s more, this is how Japanese functions as a language; it’s constructed around making sense of the context, which is why it doesn’t necessarily need subject pronouns to function or convey meaning. (Though I can understand why this goes over most Anti-IHs heads... their arguments depend almost entirely on pulling things out of context, which obviously doesn’t work.)

That said —

This scene says a lot. And even though Ichigo is speaking directly to Orihime so we understand she is the subject of what he’s saying, there’s a lot of additional meaning we can derive from this scene by reading (you guessed it) the context.

Ichigo is characterized early on by somewhat brash, irritable (though this is conditional), impolite, “punk”-like mannerisms. His speech tends to be informal (cultural context) as does his body language. However, we also know that he doesn’t say things lightly when it comes to promises and protecting others. These words carry weight, but there’s an additional sense of conviction conveyed through his respectful and formal gesture of bowing, his unwavering eye contact, and we as the readers can understand this without needing an explanation.

This is especially interesting because if IRs want to get smart about raws, then they should also already understand the additional importance placed on this scene when it comes to Ichigo’s word choice. Ichigo uses the character “護” (mamoru / ”to protect”) to convey his intentions. There are a lot of different ways to write “protect” in Japanese, many of which Ichigo uses when he makes these promises or talks about protecting others throughout the series. What makes his choice of “護” especially significant and piles on more and more contextual importance is that this is the same character for “protect” that is his namesake and the basis for his core character motivations. This is also only time throughout the entire series Ichigo specifically uses “護” to refer to protecting someone.

If the intention of this to act as a foreshadowing tool wasn’t clear enough, it is again referenced by Orihime later —just at the beginning of the fight between Ichigo and Grimmjow.

Already, we have a precedent set by Orihime’s direct involvement. This is the second scene in a pattern of foreshadowing the events of the Lust Arc.

The intent is clear; this is a theme in Ichigo’s narrative arc that involves Orihime, because it also involves the development of their relationship. Her fear of hollows, her fear of Ichigo losing himself to his hollow side, Ichigo’s struggle to expose himself to this power he relies on to win in battle while also trying not to lose himself. There’s an underlying theme of Ichigo and Orihime struggling to communicate with each other, desperately wishing to protect each other and going to whatever ends to do it, but ultimately thinking its a burden they must shoulder alone. They are both concurrently struggling with feelings of uselessness (Ichigo isn’t strong enough, Orihime can’t do anything) throughout this arc, acting as foils even if their individual journeys take different shapes. Even so, these conflicts are juxtaposed by the theme of “The Heart” (the bonds between people) that also keep appearing. They’re both frightened, they’re both feeling weak, feeling desperate, and yet still — they can understand one another.

So we have this pattern now:

Ichigo vows “Next time... I will protect you... without fail!” to Orihime with a sense of personal importance conveyed through the use of his name that is unmatched throughout the rest of the series.

Later, Orihime notes very plainly that “Whenever he uses strong words, it’s like he’s making a promise. I believe that he makes a promise to himself. I think that he expresses his words in feelings so that he will follow through.” The important takeaway being of course the forthright meaning, but also “When Ichigo says he’s going to [do something], he will [do that something] for sure.”

We all know what happens next —the character conflicts, the miscommunications, the belief that these are fights that need to be handled alone, the struggle against the powers of a hollow, the fear of exposure to that power... all culminate into The Lust Arc.

— CONTENT WARNING for canon-typical gore, blood, impalement, and body horror.

With the above established foreshadowing, we can see how it leads to this; When Ichigo says that “he will protect you without fail”, he will protect you for sure.

“To be clear, a total transformation to a hollow, is neither evil or good; it’s more like pure power .. so I made a voice of pure-hearted power that is unrelated, beyond the concept of good and evil so I screamed from a clear pure heart yet, at the same time there is some sadness and thought of Orihime in my head.”

— Masakazu Morita (Ichigo Kurosaki’s Japanese VA), on how he voiced Hollowfied!Ichigo during the Lust Arc.

“The perfectly hollowfied Ichigo ruminated over Orihime’s screams and was bound only by that objective.”

— Bleach UNMASKED

If what I outlined above wasn’t clear enough, Ichigo goes as far as to stab Ishida, his friend. It couldn’t be about anyone else. This specific theme has always very clearly been about Ichigo, Orihime, their relationship to each other, and their relationship to hollowfication as a concept.

I want to also be very clear here as well; with the established theme of Ichigo always fighting against his hollowfication, and Ichigo’s Hollow being motivated solely by self interest — it isn’t Ichigo’s Hollow responding to Orihime’s plea, it’s Ichigo’s humanity. Ichigo’s Hollow finally getting an opening to take over his host (to become The King and Ichigo, The Horse) is what revives Ichigo. But his vow to Orihime and his desire to fulfill that promise is what allowed him to cling to his humanity. The Hollow is motivated by survival instinct, not any desire to protect —that’s all Ichigo, just as it’s always been.

I think anyone who is still willfully misinterpreting this and holding Japanese language structure to English rules and conventions is seriously pathetic. Even in English, the pronouns have zero bearing on what’s being conveyed here. They can try and disprove IchiHime as much as they want as far as I’m concerned. The fact remains that at the end of the day, giving the Ichigo/Orihime relationship as much attention and dissection as they do goes to show that (a) they still perceive it as a threat and (b) there’s such a large volume of Ichigo/Orihime content to comb through to begin with —a fact they’ve vehemently denied for years.

Also like, IchiHime is canon. They’re happily married. They have a family together. Just tell them to take the fucking L. I get secondhand embarrassment from watching them rehash the same old bullshit time and again.

#!meta #ichihime #ichiori

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toxicpineapple · 4 years

Note

Please give me your amami essay, I'd like to know the TEA! I was also gonna ask for the mastermind essay, but honestly I REALLY wanna hear your thoughts on his characterization (and your thoughts on his shitty fanon characterization)

HOOO BOY OKAY. this is good, it gives me an excuse to procrastinate on reading that new amasai fic on the latest feed. (note that i REALLY WANT TO READ IT, i’m just anticipating commenting and tbh the spoons,,, i lack them. it’s okay though i’ll get over it.)

so!!! let’s start with general attitude, because i think that amami’s is really unique. he’s a subversive character. in general i feel like that was the biggest goal with his character design and personality combination-- he looks like a total playboy, kaede even comments as much moooore than once. but he’s the absolute opposite. i’ll rant about that in a bit. i’ve already gone off on a tangent and i said i was gonna talk about attitude.

amami is laid back, but not to the point of complacency. y’know what i mean? like, he’s relaxed, but he’s on his guard, too. his speaking style is pretty casual (typically he’ll greet people with a “hey,” whenever he’s slightly uncomfortable he’ll probably say “haha”... this isn’t necessarily a canon thing but i like it when people have him talking in sentence fragments. ex. “forgot to grab my jacket” or “wanted to get a snack” sort of thing) and that’s just,,, the type of person he is. he’s casual. it’s remarkable considering how wealthy amami is-- though bear in mind, he still IS wealthy, so there are bound to be things he doesn’t understand about people-- that he can be so normal and like, down to earth, in a way. when people mess around with him he’ll probably just laugh it off.

to cite a fic i read once that had REALLY phenomenal characterisation, imo, ouma ends up dumping a bucket of water on amami’s head (on accident; there are some semantics and i won’t get into it but again the fic is really good and funny and you should totally read it) and amami just squeezes out his shirt and makes a couple cracks before walking away. (sorry this isn’t meant to be a “dumping love on fics” post but GOD that fic is hysterical.) he’s an enabler too, at least i think so-- remember that anthology chapter where kaede, shuichi, and kaito are trying to catch ouma and kaito sets an “amami trap” to stop him? all ouma has to do is flutter his eyelashes and go “pleeeaaase let me go amam~niichan!” and then he just. he does. what a fucking doormat i can’t believe him.

he’s like that though. i feel like big brother stuff is kind of his weakness. (and not in a kinky way alright i will destroy you. he might make a joke about having a sister complex in one of his ftes but he DOESNT that joke was just tasteless COME ON RANTARO WHFKLDSJFK) which brings me to his whole older brother thing, because like,,, YEAH. guy grew up with twelve younger sisters!!! and he remarked in his ftes with shuichi that they’re mostly step sisters, which means he just.... has a nurturing personality. i mean amami is somewhat conservative (if you try to come on to him during salmon mode you will be brutally rebuffed; amami tells u to keep your horny thoughts to yourself, though you shouldn’t be ashamed of having them) so i imagine he’s not the biggest fan of his father’s tendencies-- not that i don’t NECESSARILY interpret his father’s behaviour as him sleeping around.... it’s possible he just likes children and deliberately marries women who already have kids so he can take them... i mean it’s exceedingly decent to keep considering ur step children to be your children after a divorce so i have a hard time reconciling this common image of rantaro’s dad as some kind of player figure with the impression i got of him in my head but that’s just my daddy issues coming into play again so ignore me-- and yet he still considers all his sisters to be his sisters.

not to mention he feels a great deal of like, responsibility, when it comes to taking care of them. i find it impossible to believe that all the losses were his fault. you could ARGUE that the one he tells you about with his younger sister was to be blamed on him? but i mean, amami is a child. he didn’t even know his sister was following him out. sure he blames himself for it but there’s no real good way to blame him just considering that,,, he’s a kid. and he was so young-- he was obviously so young-- when it happened. so like, not to be all Good and Bad on you, but i do feel that amami is fundamentally a good reason. and you SEE that too, in the killing game. i’m certain he was on the fence about trusting that note he woke up with. would you trust it? he had no memory whatsoever of writing it, all he had were the words “ultimate hunt” and a map of the school to guide his way. i imagine he wasn’t even sure if he should do what the note said. but then ryoma started talking about sacrificing himself for everyone else, and rantaro probably thought, “well... if i have a way to get us out of here, even if it doesn’t work, i can’t just let ryoma sacrifice himself without having tried.”

rantaro is self-reliant too, i think. in the talent development plan mukuro remarks that she noticed he was injured a good number of times, but never said anything about it because she felt like he was trying to keep it under wraps. (note: good idea for an amami and mukuro friendship fic. must write. someone remind me.) i think amami kind of feels isolated from his classmates? either because he has these perceived notions of like, independence and whatever, not burdening anybody else with his problems (honestly not to go chabashira on main but wtf men ask for help c’mon i promise if you find a person who’s worth being in ur life they won’t treat you like shit for feeling ur feelings) or just because he’s not around a lot. i think amami is the type of person to invalidate his own problems a lot, or at least downplay them to others. he blames himself for all his sisters going missing, took the responsibility to find them all. you know the blow that’s going to be to his education? traveling around the world looking for twelve different people? and he plans to keep doing that!!! forever!!! ugh ;-; poor babey. but anyway i feel like he doesn’t want to tell anybody about his problems because he feels like it’s his thing to deal with.

i also believe that rantaro is a bit prideful. i mean, anyone can be prideful under the correct circumstances, and in fact there is a great deal of pride that simply isn’t addressed by the fandom in analysing characters and that makes me really sad because pride is such a SEXY character flaw but i’ll leave that alone for now. he hates being told to give up on what he’s doing. i mean everyone in his life has been telling him to stop looking for his sisters. that’s got to suck, but also, DAMN look at what his reaction was. this utter refusal to open up to anybody. shuichi’s ftes with him are spent pretty much just trying to get amami to stop squirreling around and actually TALK to him. amami asks shuichi at one point if he has any siblings and when the response is negative, amami immediately assumes that shuichi wouldn’t understand, would tell him to quit. just like everyone else.

(i mean, even with kiyo and mukuro, whose circumstances mirror his almost painfully at least in willingness to sacrifice stuff for their siblings, he doesn’t tell them what he’s doing, just that he’s doing it for his sister-- singular-- and that he would do anything for her. kiyo and mukuro!! out of ANYBODY, they would understand. in tdp they DO talk about it-- kiyo encourages him to keep searching-- as his friend...... fuck amaguji is such a good ship even if the implications of kiyo saying he wants to meet rantaro’s sister after he finds her bc she must be suuuuch a good person if he’s doing all this for her are uhhh not great-- and mukuro immediately understands when he says it’s to do with his younger sister. like, full stop. she just goes “okay” and goes serious. all at once. damn rantaro, mukuro, and kiyo really do be a power trio huh. i need to write more fic about them i miss them.)

this is more into baseless conjecture so take this as you will, but i also think rantaro is kind of,,, easily distracted lmao. he mentions helping out a village with a disease-- been a while since i’ve seen his ftes, sorry for any inconsistencies-- among other shit and like... bro what are you DOING. you have sisters to find. and he can’t be getting injured all the time, getting wrapped up with gang violence and all that, looking for people who were lost traveling. i mean sure, you could say they went all over the world and got wrapped up in all sorts of mess, but more likely they stayed in roughly the same area, waiting for him to come back. and also? i have a hard time believing his sisters were lost in these remote forest places people always put them. COME ON, who the fuck goes to some village for a vacation? a RICH person no less. i’m on another tangent. sorry. but yeah, i love the people who write rantaro as an absolute airhead. i headcanon that he has no way of judging the passing of time and thus is the absolute worst in the bathroom bc he sits there for twenty minutes thinking about the universe and then walks out like “:) ok ready to go” like wtf are you even doing there stupid akljdf anyway.

i think rantaro is softhearted and thoughtful. in his ftes with kaede he demonstrates an ability to look past what people show at surface level-- you can ask him about miu, kiibo, or kiyo and he’ll give u Good Fucking Insight(tm)-- and analyse their intentions more closely. and i mean this is just from a couple day’s interaction. he’s down to earth for sure, understanding when people are intimidated but also caring and observant. (his “talk about a first impression” line is so fuckaindgf.... good for his characterisation. i love romantic amamatsu but he so clearly takes an older brother role in those ftes, he’s really such a sweetheart,,,, hnadhfkj ;w;) rantaro is just. he’s patient with people. and selfless and kind. idk it’s all the good stuff. warm smiles and indulgence. all the way. probably lets kokichi steal his lunch.

THAT BEING SAID: i think rantaro also has a very serious streak. he doesn’t show it a lot but there are moments. he’s self-sacrificing-- i mean, obviously. he was the ultimate survivor, after all. some people hc that he got there by killing, or maybe everyone else in his game died but one person, but bro that doesn’t make any sense???? no. what happened was there were probably like three people left, and monokuma was like “one has to be sacrificed” and rantaro thought, welp. it’ll be me then. and i wouldn’t say the choice would be immediate because rantaro DOES has self preservation instincts-- he’s only human-- but i don’t think he’d have let anybody else make that decision. i think ultimately he would try to protect other people.

he can be scarily confrontational too. i do believe he’d usually only do it in the defense of others-- like, his base instinct is to protect. i read a fic once (oumami, unfortunately) where ouma was committing crimes and went to hide behind rantaro and rantaro instinctively moved to protect him, and that’s.... that’s good characterisation. point one to the oumami stans, point zero to me. motherfucker. (love u oumami stans, it’s just not my thing.) i really like it in fics when he’s stern, lecturing people for hurting other people, but i also think rantaro is too understanding to be truly unforgiving. like if two people got into an argument and one came out of it more hurt than the other, i don’t believe that amami would be unsympathetic to the less hurt one. i think he’s mature enough to take a look at the situation and go, well, okay.

i think he’d be TERRIFYING when angry. he’s patient, y’know? so it takes a lot to get him to that point. he’s really, ah, accommodating of people. puts up with a lot of bs kind of thing. but i imagine the best way to get him to snap is by hurting someone he cares about. and at that point: ur fucked. i’ve never written it before because i’m terrified of what i’d do with that kind of power but.... imagine the shuichi whump. holy god.

i’m NOT here to talk about shuichi whump (though i’m down to do that any time of day believe me) so i’m gonna like. shhhhiiiiiiffft.

i project on characters a lot so at this point it’s difficult to distinguish if some of my characterisation things are like, actually characterisation things? or just me venting, so like, take nothing i say as canon, but also,,, akdsjf we love a man who bottles up his emotions.

because rantaro just doesn’t have the TIME to be crying all over the place. he was probably a total wreck when he lost his first sister. and his second. and maybe even his third. but then he started to gather his composure, more and more. because if there’s anything that rantaro has in excess, it’s composure. the more losses he suffers the more of a shield he builds up. and the self hatred and the guilt and the blame and the responsibility are piling up and up and up, but god he hates it when other people see him sad, because he needs to be the strong one, he can’t just pile that up on other people. that’s not their weight to carry, and besides, he’s the older brother, he should be able to deal with his own problems. he’d just be burdening the people he cares about by letting them see his demons.

and then he doesn’t have any coping mechanisms because he never lets himself feel enough to cope, and when people get close enough to actually CARE about him, when people notice he’s upset or struggling and offer him help, he doesn’t know how to deal with it-- and god he hates lashing out at people but it’s so much easier to deal with the consequences of being mean than the consequences of breaking down. only conflict is scary when he’s one of the causes so he needs time to recover, and well, what better way to do that than to get on a plane or a boat and go look for his sisters? after all he’s wasting time whenever he’s just sitting around, they’re still out there and he needs to find them, so might as well just keep pushing himself to the limits, because it’s his fault they’re lost anyway...

something mukuro said to rantaro in the talent development plan stuck in my brain. like, initially it’s just a funny and cute interaction (rantaro even blushes and a blushing rantaro is a GOOD FUCKING RANTARO) but when i thought about it more i was like.... huh. hm. angst ideas. mukuro makes a joke about rantaro going over to her stand at the festival to flirt with her-- i think that’s the context, i know it’s play-boy related-- and rantaro assures her (as he always does) that he’s not that kind of guy, and mukuro agrees, saying she was just pulling his leg and that he seems like the kind of person who gets dumped because he doesn’t show his emotions enough. rantaro laughs, blushes, and says “haha, not touching that one,” and akdjfnnnnnn god mukuro you’re so blunt i love you fkdjf but wow. i usually have rantaro as not having dated anyone, just because i feel like he kind of hyperfocuses on finding his sisters? and given that he’s like sixteen (seventeen at the MOST) there’s not much of a timeline for when his sisters got lost. in my fic search i had to cram all the losses into a four-year period and damn that was rough. anyway i just don’t think he’d really prioritise romance. but that reaction implies that that’s EXACTLY his experience with romance, which makes a bit of sense because mukuro is ridiculously sharp, and also it’s,, it’s just sad idk poor rantaro. getting dumped because he’s like the emotional equivalent of a doorknob when it comes to his own feelings.

i do think rantaro is a bit cowardly. not in the sense that he’d shy away from danger-- i think he’d RUSH INTO IT HEAD FIRST because he’s a man or whatever, i know he respects women but he does seem to hold some of those very stereotypically masculine ideals of constantly protecting those around him, which is like.... ok toxic masculinity mcgee can u and kaito stop throwing hands every time u see each other ty-- but more in the sense that he avoids,,, confrontation. emotional confrontation just ain’t his thing. and i think he’d rather run away from it or otherwise find some way of ignoring it than try to address his problems.

he would, with that in mind, probably try to associate with people who don’t push the matter. kiyo and mukuro, for example. they both have a fair amount of baggage themselves so they’d probably be respectful. ryoma is lowkey enough that he just, he wouldn’t bring that shit up, that’s uncool. i also think rantaro would get along REALLY WELL with kaito, and i actually don’t think kaito would pull his sidekick stuff with him? just because in a way they’re kind of kindred spirits, and i think kaito would see an ally in rantaro before seeing someone to try to nurture, so they’d probably have some kind of a truce like, if you don’t force me to be vulnerable, i won’t force you. one of the reasons why i love amamota so much is because it involves the two of them growing to care about each other beyond that sort of unhealthy camaraderie and breaking down each other’s barriers and i just..... hhnnfhhdkfj they could be so good for each other but nobody wants to talk about thatjslfkj

you weren’t asking for my amamota mess lmao sorry anon i get sidetracked SO easily. but yeah, amami gravitates towards people who wouldn’t try to get him to be more honest with himself. and i honestly think the v3 cast would be pretty good about that overall, except for shuichi who is a detective and has a habit of sticking his nose in places it shouldn’t be, but i see no reason to write that out because amami’s ftes already display that beautifully. (well, that’s a lie, i’m absolutely plotting out a slowburn in my head already that involves shuichi stripping down his walls one by one, but forget about all of that rn we don’t need to talk about why amasaimota is my ot3.) also he is softer on childish people like ouma and himiko. ain’t nobody wants to TALK TO ME about how brilliant it would be if rantaro and hiyoko were friends because hiyoko has such problems in that department and he would take one look at her and go hm. i’m adopting her. and he’s so fucking patient and nice and she’d lose the will to make fun of him and i have to do ALL THE GODDAMN WORK AROUND HERE but it’s fine. at least i get to write it.

i’ve described the fundamentals of his characterisation pretty well by now i think. i have some throwaway headcanons, like uhh,,

he’s claustrophobic

plays the guitar and the ukulele

he prefers warm weather and perishes in the cold

high pain tolerance

he’s a Good Cook

doesn’t like sex jokes (they make him uncomfortable)

asexual (i do like a good demisexual hc at all times of day tho)

master of piggyback rides

does his own piercings

impulsive as hell

gets lost easily but can always find his way back

has a lot of scars from travels

hands are rough and calloused (again from travels)

morning person

smells like evergreen (you know i had to, you know i did)

Radiates Heat Like A Fucking Toaster Oven

good hugs

hates tying his shoelaces

likes being the big spoon :)

has a tongue piercing

i said “some throwaway headcanons” but i ended up listing way more than i mean to. i’ll make a separate list of my rantaro headcanons someday and talk about them all in detail but for now, uh, there’s that.

SO AS FOR THE RANTARO CHARACTERISATIONS I ABSOLUTELY DESPISE:

god where to fucking begin. actually i know exactly where to begin. it’s my least favourite one just because, like i said at the very beginning, rantaro is a subversive character. i mean i think he’s kind of a low hanging fruit when it comes to that. there are plenty of other subversive characters in the dr series but rantaro is like that. you expect a flirt and u get,,, a sweetheart. but then some people (usually the ones who ship him with female characters exclusively though i will see it on occasion in an amasai or oumami fic) decide to throw that out the window and make him a total playboy!! and listen, i have no problem with people who are a little flirty. we’re kids!! flirt ur heart out!!! and hey, that’s not what this is about but y’know what? so long as everything is safe, sane, and consensual, then yeah!! exercise your sexual freedom and sleep with whoever you want to!!! i don’t think there’s anything wrong with messing around a little, dating who u wanna and experimenting with ur tastes and preferences. if rantaro WAS a playboy, then there would be nothing wrong with that. i would love him just the same because he’s such a fundamentally GOOD character.

except that.... he’s.......... NOT. you slaughter one of the biggest aspects of his character by throwing away what matters to him and making him some hunky-deep-voice-dreamboat dude meant to sweep kaede/tsumugi/whomsteverthefuck off her feet. rantaro is one of those characters where he’s so blatantly not that kind of person, and it’s like. it’s an affront, almost, to portray him that way? and i do believe you should have the freedom to write what you want, since we’re in that age (aside from romanticised pedophilia and incest; that shit ain’t cute, i say this often but pro-ship DNI) where u should be able to take some liberties, but it’s just. hnnn. it’s so frustrating. rantaro does not know how to smolder! if he DID smolder, he wouldn’t even realise he was doing it. he doesn’t have people lying at his feet, okay? he’s too flaky for that. i wouldn’t say he’s unreliable but he definitely ain’t at school as much as he should be.

another one that i hate: st-stalker? what the fuck? that is not sexy that is creepy and weird?

another another one that i hate: yandere? what the FUCK??? that is not sexy that is glorified ABUSE???? the yandere trope is AWFUL bc you’re taking a controlling relationship and turning it into a fetish. NO. if he limits ur contact with other people, if he follows u everywhere, if he threatens ur loved ones, if he tries to control you, ladies and gents and nonbinaries, he’s not a yandere, he’s an abuser and you need a fucking restraining order. actually, people of ANY gender or sex can perpetuate this behaviour and IT IS NOT CUTE. I DO NOT GIVE A FUCK WHAT BOUNDARIES U SET IN PLACE, IF YOUR FREEDOM IS BEING RESTRICTED THAT IS ABUSE.

hate it when people make rantaro violent. hate it when people make rantaro a murderer. hate it when people make rantaro controlling. hate it when people make rantaro overtly sexual. some kind of sultry deep voice dominant kind of figure. dude, what the fuck? i don’t,, want to make any public comments about sex positions because i think that’s kind of Strange to just talk about on a post, but i do think that the way people portray him for their smuts is,,, idk it’s weird. i’m not gonna kinkshame u but like. :eyes:

i will however accept rantaro as a thrillseeker, or a highstrung rich boy, or a total space cadet, or a himbo, or a cryptid. these are all very good interpretations of the Mans. just, like. be wary of making him two dimensional. a good character is multifaceted. if you can take a trait that clashes with all of these and SELL ME ON IT, i will buy it. if u give me good justifications, or even just good writing?? then i will accept it.

the long and the short of it is, anon, he’s my favourite so i think about him a lot. i love writing rantaro. he’s just, he’s a Guy. y’know? He’s A Good Dude, If You’ll Give Him A Shot. :) we don’t get to see very much of him but i think that there’s plenty of material if you overanalyse everything, which, as you probably all know by now,,,, i absolutely do.

thank you for the ask, this was a delight to spend an hour talking about.

#amami rantaro #rantaro amami #abuse mention #long post

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musical-chick-13 · 3 years

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Melisandre too please

OKAY STRAP IN MY FRIEND BECAUSE I WANT TO SCREAM ABOUT GOT WOMEN TODAY

• Did they live up to their potential? / In what ways was their potential unachieved?

I’m going to stick to the show because, again finished when the books aren’t. So, I really love Melisandre with my whole heart. You know, you have this mysterious woman who easily manipulates a powerful man, but it’s not just a standard femme-fatale I love power kind of thing. She grew up enslaved (at least in book canon, I can’t remember if this was ever mentioned in the show), and she’s in, essentially, a codependent relationship with her religious faith. It’s not for some sort of fake demureness or quest for purity, it’s because she thinks it’s genuinely the only thing she can do to save the world. She’s not a corrupt pastor, she’s an extremist who truly thinks she’s doing the right thing. But she’s not quite a competely-brainwashed, naive young victim, either. Obviously being sold into slavery and trained in the priesthood since forever ago influences her beliefs. But she reflects deeply on the nature of morality and owns up readily to the fact that sometimes she engages in acts of violence in the name of what she believes. It’s not an accident, people’s lives simply come at the expense of her service to R’hllor and faith in the coming of Azor Azai. She balances a very fine line between two extremes of the religious zealot morality spectrum, and I think she does it very well. The one thing I will say is that the show couldn’t seem to make up its mind on whether or not she was a fraud or whether she actually had Special Magic Powers. And not in kind of a “We won’t show you all the details of what happened, judge for yourself if she’s legit” way. They had her whole conversation with Selyse about using potions for desired fire effects, but she gives birth to shadow assassin babies and then literally brought someone back from the dead. If you’re going to make it ambiguous, keep it ambiguous. If not, make a decision and commit to it. Being completely shrouded in mystery; being a complete, unapologetic fraud; and being a supernatural entity entrusted with magic who sometimes misuses it “For The Greater Good” are all much more interesting than flip-flopping back and forth on characterization because you’re afraid to commit to a concept. Also, for some reason, in season 7 her main objective was to bring Jon and Dany together? Why? They should have explained how she got to that point and why she thought it was necessary. Also her death, but I talk about that in the last point.

• How they negatively and positively affected the story.

Positive: She brought Stannis into the story, leading to a discussion about whether or not the concept of justice is born from conformity to rules or a desire to put more good into the world. We are introduced to another religion in Westeros that helps enrich the worldbuilding and leads to a moral compass that is centered so differently from the other characters that it provides a fresh way of interpreting the story’s events and keeps us engaged. We are introduced to Davos aka Onion Dad through her and I love that guy.

Negative: She brought Stannis and Davos into the story, to the point where show Shireen died FOR NO REASON which COMPLETELY RUINED STANNIS’S CHARACTER IN THE PROCESS. Stannis wasn’t supposed to be The Irredeemable Bad Guy, he was supposed to be another link in the chain that encompassed all of the different ways of looking at morality. Instead, they used his multifaceted, complex relationship with Melisandre to flatten out his characterization, make him the resident Pathetic Game Player We Are Supposed to Laugh At, and ultimately left off all degree of nuance by making him burn a child alive for shock value. I’ll never forgive the show for that. (Also, what with Brienne’s smiting of Stannis, Davos being the All-Around Good Guy and the fact that Mel’s death was so...anticlimactic...we’re also apparently supposed to see Stannis as the one primarily responsible for Renly’s death? Just? Ignoring Mel’s (and Davos’s) part in that? Sounds fake and narratively inconsistent, but okay.)

• What my favorite arc for them is.

-I think, probably after Stannis’s death (how said death came about notwithstanding, see above), when she realizes that she was...wrong? About her faith? She thought she knew how the world was supposed to work, like she had finally figured it out and unlocked some big secret, and then it just wasn’t true at all. And (kind of similar to what I said about Cersei) she has to rebuild herself. She and Davos have reversed their ways of thinking, where Davos believes-maybe not in R’hllor or any god(s), but in the existence of inexplicable and superhuman things-and now he has to convince her. And only then does she (and the audience) learn of her true power. (Which, as I mentioned above, I’m not entirely sure how I feel about this. Her being a charlatan strikes me as a character choice I would want more in a story I was writing, but I’m not writing these books/episodes, lmao.) Her priorities become more skewed toward “Fighting the White Walkers and making sure whoever Azor Azai is has a world left to save,” which WE LOVE ORGANIC SHIFTS IN PERSONAL MOTIVATION WE REALLY DO Y’ALL

• What I think of their ending.

-Ugh. I don’t think I’ve ever actually talked about this, but her just going, “Well, my goal is done, bye” and then going out into the snow and just laying down to die is...how do I put it...utter bullshit. There was never any true payoff in her ongoing conflict with Davos, no resolution to her (weird, creepy) relationship with Jon or how he felt about her doing awful things but still being the person who brought him back to life, she didn’t even get a moment of dying in service of a cause she believed in (like, for example, Theon, whose ending I also hated but for much more personal reasons that have less to do with narrative structure and more to do with my feelings). She legit just said, “I’m out” and instantaneously died. Also...she, Davos, and Jon have been through a LOT. The fact that there was barely any mention of her or what her death meant save for that one conversation Davos had with Tyrion??? for some reason???? seems like a waste. If someone has been with you through multiple traumatic experiences, it doesn’t matter if you hate them, you’ll have some sort of feelings after they die. Davos never got retribution for Shireen, doesn’t that bother him?? How does Jon feel knowing he owes his life to the killer of an innocent child? How does Davos feel seeing yet another person die right in front of him, but intentionally this time?? *sigh* Emotional through-lines are a thing, people!

• When I wish they had died. / If I think they should’ve died.

-Ultimately, my biggest beef is that there was...nothing I saw in the show that suggested this was how she wanted her story to end. If you’re going to make a character feel hopeless upon resolving a specific problem or tie their entire reason for existing to one conflict, you have to have them talk about it or personally reflect on it? You can’t just stick that on as an afterthought to justify...whatever it was D&D were trying to justify. Melisandre has always had such a complicated relationship with Westerosi morality, and she NEVER got to see any direct consequence of that (and by consequence I don’t even mean, like...punishment or something, I literally just mean a result that happened because of it). She, again, legit just walked in the snow by herself and insta-died. It 100% felt like they just didn’t know what to do with this character so they just scribbled something in so they wouldn’t have to spend any time on her later because they didn’t care about her. (Which, obviously, they’re wrong. I love her and she’s so interesting this is a fact. Shame on you, D&D.) I do think, for her, it makes sense based on her religious ties to kind of...have a last-minute swerve toward penance. Not guilt or redemption, per se, but a way to honor the world she’s trying to save by way of choosing to die through a selfless act. Whether that be sacrificing herself as a distraction for the White Walkers or putting herself in the line of fire (ice?) for Jon because she thinks he'll help heal the world or (my personal favorite) fighting off a White Walker to protect Davos because she has finally come to sort-of understand his nuanced take on morality and that although he has some bad/dark parts, he is genuinely a good man and deserves to make it out alive. Let him have the life that Shireen didn’t get to have. Davos would be SO CONFLICTED because She Did a Good Selfless Thing For Someone Who Wanted To Kill Her But She’s An Awful Person What Do I Think About Good And Evil Now and the introspection would be delicious.

#melisandre #got #asoiaf #meta #tw: suicide mention #davos seaworth #stannis baratheon

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seyaryminamoto · 4 years

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I always think about this before sleeping at night: OZAI AND URSA COULD BE ATLA SUPREME CANON SHIP IF SHE DIDN'T CHEAT ON HIM I mean they are doing well (and treating zuko well) before he reads that damn letter

x’D well, before sleeping at night I always think about future scenes of my stories I look forward to writing, but to each their own (?)

Frankly, canon-wise I don’t know what to make of Urzai anymore. Gladiator!Urzai is based on my early understanding of their relationship as was presented in Zuko Alone, but then the comics took a whole different direction to explore their story and it went against pretty much everything I’d expected from these two. It’s probably the most unpleasant take on Urzai, despite it’s far from the most depressing, actually? Had they cared about each other to some degree, their story would have been soooo very complicated, and Ursa’s actions would feel much more like a sacrifice than they do, lending a much more tragic feeling to her tale. But alas, that’s not what we were given...

In any case, Ikem obviously poses an irksome problem in any positive canon!Urzai interpretations. His character is vital to The Search because he’s Ursa’s initial source of misery upon being stuck with marrying Ozai, but he hasn’t had a significant role at all in the comics beyond this. Whatever happens next, I highly doubt that he will be more important in future installments. Removing him from the story altogether could do away with Ozai’s completely exaggerated behavior over Ikem, and he’d probably look a little less unhinged and freakish than he does because most of his paranoia over Ursa seems to stem from the awareness that she once loved someone else. Granted, the letter she writes doesn’t help one bit, but he sends Vachir to kill Ikem after YEARS of doing nothing? Which implies he just... obsessed silently with the letter for that long and didn’t act on it until Zuko was older?

There’s even inconsistencies in Ozai’s erratic, jealous man behavior that I don’t think I’ve pointed out before and I don’t know if anyone else did:

Part 1:

Part 3:

Like... let’s try out all the interpretations of this particular situation: say the wedding wasn’t immediate, they had to prepare for a while: why would he need spies to track down her “every move” before marrying her if they took Ursa to the Capital on the very day they went to Hira’a, and Ikem was left behind in the village? He wouldn’t need “spies” for it, he would merely need maids to inform him of her every move, like the one who intercepts the letters. I highly doubt that woman qualifies for the title of spy...? :’D

Then, the other possibility... is that Ozai found Ursa on his own, and kept her under surveilance BEFORE Azulon found her? Does THAT make any sense? O_o Or did Azulon find Ursa, tell Ozai, Ozai sent his spies to keep watch on her and only after a few months of being sure she hadn’t fucked Ikem did Ozai and Azulon travel to the village? :’D

... Yeah, weird plot contrivances, what else is new...

Anyways, I think it’s fair to say that Ikem was only thrown into the mix to give Ursa a dramatic reason to despise Ozai since day one. So... would they have been fine if she hadn’t “cheated”? Well, for starters I don’t think she cheated while she was living in the Palace, canon-wise, she only does after Ozai forces her to leave (and I won’t argue that it counts as cheating after she leaves, because they’re technically still married, despite they’re clearly 100% estranged and give zero shits about each other, according to the comics). But going by how this relationship was characterized, I’ve always thought the comics were insisting on presenting an absolutely miserable and unhappy Ursa, who only pretended otherwise for Zuko’s benefit. Yeah, the letter made things worse for their family, but even then, that your husband keeps tabs on everything you do, including the letters you’re sending back to the family you’re no longer allowed to meet, isn’t exactly a sign of healthy relationships. Again, it’s all done to show how bad and toxic Ozai is, and why Ursa has every right to get out of this relationship. Everything is unpleasant and straight-forward.

Obviously, in contrast, Zuko Alone presents a picture of Urzai that allows a thousand possible interpretations. I have no doubts there’s some people who actually think they were in love, then there’s others who think they hated each other’s guts. I’ve even seen fics based on the premise that Ursa was actually in love with Iroh all along and had an affair with him behind Ozai’s back :’DDDD therefore... it can go all sorts of ways. There’s no end to the possible interpretations of what Ursa and Ozai’s story could have been like, but sadly, the comics didn’t offer much that would allow a positive interpretation of canon!Urzai, as far as I can tell.

So, while Urzai definitely had potential to be the coolest possible ATLA version of Macbeth and Lady Macbeth? The very starting point of the comics, when retelling Ursa’s story, establishes pretty strongly that this isn’t the story of a Macbeth and his Lady Macbeth, but the story of a woman who was roped into marrying a toxic man against her will. Hence... it’s not merely because she cheated or because of the letter or because of Ursa’s actions, it’s because the whole backstory the comics created for them blatantly ruled out the possibility for Ursa and Ozai to be as twisted and interesting as some of us hoped they would be.

If you wish their canon relationship were any better, I’ll just say outright that the key factor to make a more palatable version of Urzai would entail removing Ikem from the picture, and that means The Search would have to be written completely differently... and at this point in time, I don’t think canon will backtrack on that at all. Soooo... I’d say go read as many Urzai fics as you can, because fortunately there’s quite a few. There are countless missed opportunities by canon, there’s no arguing with that... so I feel you, and I share your pain. But we can always find refuge in stories, because ultimately, ATLA is just a story too :’D so, look for stories with interpretations of Urzai you can agree with, and then you’ll be much happier in life, I hope!

(Or, you know, imagine such stories before sleeping at night :’DDD then you’ll be just like me x’D)

#anon #... is this too long?#if it is I'll throw in a read more #but ya know #let me know (?)#anyways Gladiator!Urzai is indeed much closer to Macbeth + Lady Macbeth #not 100% but similar enough #so if you're looking for variations on Urzai beyond 'he was bad and she was good and they were miserable together'#stick around and you'll see it eventually :'D

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not-a-space-alien · 5 years

Text

hey its me again wall of text sorry not sorry

k i saw your little treatise justifying zadr and yknow its a cartoon its not the worst thing ever of course nobody is gonna sue you for reblogging fanart or burn you at the stake or w/e and im glad you decided to open yourself up to a differing opinion but zim IS portrayed as an adult. there was even an unfinished episode where zim’s childhood and growing up training from start to finish would be shown so by the time of the pilot he is definitely a full grown developed adult by irken standards especially if hes a former member of an elite military force like the invaders. jhonen has said that the irony and sad comedy of zims character is that hes a grown ass man and a war veteran to boot who VOLUNTARILY goes to an elementary school every day and throws hands with an 11 year old boy who should be well below his notice because he’s that pathetic and desperate for validation that he’ll stoop to seeking it from a child. it also sets up a dynamic between them where dib is CHALLENGED by having to go up against an adult with way more experience than him while dib is just a child, so when he wins its more meaningful, which is a common trope in childrens fiction that an underdog young hero has to take down a powerful adult villain.

jhonen might joke a lot but he’s serious about this part of the characterization of zim and dib and he even went to great lengths to make dib look and act more like a kid in ETF (more emotional and naive, designed to look smaller/softer, going in depth with his relationship to his dad and sister and needing his dad to protect him at the end when he’s too overrun to fight alone) just to drive home the point of how young he is. it was a very deliberate move and jhonen knows what hes doing ESPECIALLY since he also left zim pretty much unchanged and also includes gags about zim’s relative maturity like animating him briefly grimacing because his joints are sore and the part where he pretty much gestures to his crotch and goes “theyre afraid to look at ALL-A THIS”. like you would not see jhonen do that sort of joke with an underage character ok. dont confuse his social awkwardness and self deprecating/trolling humor for not knowing the difference between right and wrong and not acknowledge when he means something sincerely because he doesn’t just clown on people and troll ALL THE TIME 24/7 hes a human, and times have changed with more awareness on issues such as the grooming of minors so he can go back on things he may have said in the past that he doesn’t agree with now or said by mistake. he has said enough times that zim is older than any human alive that its safe to take his word for it by now. judging by the one strip he did in JTHM about johnny murdering a pedophile who was about to prey on squee i think his stance on protecting kids is pretty clear. also i wouldnt put it past jhonen to have redesigned membrane to be more chaddy looking to divert the adult fandom’s attention away from dib and throw the fangirls a bone but thats a whole nother can of worms lol.

and the justification that zim is immature so hes essentially on dib’s level is a reversal of something lots of kids hear from either creepy or ignorant adults who tell them theyre “so mature for their age”. no matter how emotionally mature you are it wont ever compensate for the number of years youve been alive so that’s not very sound logic, and even in fic where theyre both adults it’s still pretty weird because it doesn’t erase their history where zim knew dib as a kid. that’s sort of like a grownup waiting with bated breath until a kid is “legal” so they can start dating. kinda like when jacob imprints on bella’s newborn daughter in twilight then having it handwaved away by saying he’ll wait till she’s grown up, which understandably drew a huge amount of criticism. it’s a loophole that might be mildly acceptable in some cases but the context leaves it colored with a residual ickiness that sets off some red flags for me and a lot of other people.

also you said zim is an alien and therefore the situation itself is unrealistic, but the reason invader zim’s writing resonates with people is because zim is written with very HUMAN emotions and motivations and part of the humor again is how irkens despite being aliens from another planet mirror some of humanity’s worst flaws such as being petty, gluttonous, willfully ignorant, arrogantly believing they are special and better than everyone else, easily manipulated by propaganda, all too eager to greedily colonize other societies etc making them not so different from us at all. so the premise out of context might not seem realistic but the idea of a sad burnout adult who doesn’t realize how humiliating it is to be consistently outsmarted by a kid less than half their age IS realistic and applicable to human interaction since we’ve likely all met someone like this before at one point in our lives for example a schoolteacher who has a personal vendetta against one or more of their students and has nothing better to do than antagonize them, or a really dumb parent that you fight with a lot.

another thing, i know you and other fans probably have a lot of sentimental value and nostalgia attached to zadr because you probably shipped it back when you were a kid yourself and you cant be blamed for something you liked as a kid, but youre an adult now, and you have to listen to the portion of kids in the fandom who dont like zadr and say without question that the age gap makes them uncomfortable. those kids ARE the priority. we’re grown up now and we have to put our feelings aside for them because that’s part of being responsible and mature. i feel like zim himself is a pretty good example of how not to act at our age [shrug emoji]

and anyway a lot of the same elements of zadr can be explored with zadf just as well with just as much potential for cute moments and as a bonus is it’s not creepy

You do bring up some good points, and I’m not saying you’re wrong... But honestly I’m still not convinced. I mean, stuff that Jhonen said, the thing is even if it’s the author saying it it’s still outside of canon, that’s the reason why Neil Gaiman got flack for Good Omens because they didn’t write an actual kiss or hug or hand-hold between Aziraphale and Crowley yet Neil Gaiman went on Twitter saying they were queer representation. I still don’t really put much stock into what he says because the unfinished episodes and Jhonen’s commentary don’t really change the dynamic that’s actually in the show. And again...Jhonen said if there were going to be romance in the show it would be Zim/Gaz, so he’s either a huge hypocrite or doesn’t view Zim as being incompatible with Gaz.

I do think it’s much better when Dib is an adult and it just makes more sense, and I actually do prefer zadf to zadr and if i were going to ever write fanfiction or make fanart it would probably just be zadf, just because i know this does have some stuff to think about and I totally respect that you have a different view of it, but i honestly just don’t see it that way. The analogy with Jacob imprinting on Bella’s child in Twilight isn’t really the same thing honestly. The author in that situation tried to make it not......that....by saying that imprinting isn’t always a romantic relationship thing, and that Jacob would be more of an older brother, but honestly that doesn’t really negate the impact of grooming that kid would have with Jacob around. The idea that Zim would somehow be grooming Dib seems really silly to me although you’re right, I think his characterization in Into the Florpus has evolved somewhat especially with regard to Dib wanting to get his father’s approval, but again Zim has parallels with that in trying to please the Tallest. the world-building and characterizations are inconsistent and scattershot at best. Like no, zim isn’t waiting for him to turn legal, that’s absurd, they’re nemeses coming at each other then learning to be friends. You’re right that that doesn’t have to be zadr but I still tag it as zadr so people can block it if they want to.

Like, I’ve seen people ship Zim with Professor Membrane instead of Dib. That seems very weird to me. that professor membrane would have a relationship with someone who literally goes to his son’s elementary school and who doesn’t know anything at all about human behavior and emotions.

I feel like with this discussion people don’t really understand the problem with age gaps. With age gaps, it’s not a matter of mature/immature, it’s about development. A ten year age gap sounds like a lot right? a 25-year-old and a 15-year old would absolutely have a predatory “relationship.” But a 35- and a 45-year old, that’s perfectly fine. Having a difference in age doesn’t automatically make the relationship unhealthy. so if Dib is 25 and Zim is [whatever the hell aliens years i still don’t really take Jhonen’s word for it bc he’s not consistent], that’s doesn’t mean it has to be bad. The thing about telling minors they’re “so mature for their age” to try and convince them that a person interested in them isn’t a pedophile is that we know a human being who is 15 isn’t developmentally at the same level as a 25-year-old regardless of their behavior. What is Zim? All we have to go on is how he acts, and he acts like Dib is an equal match, it’s not “he’s immature for his age,” it’s very unclear. Raw number of years isn’t the ultimate decider, for example in DnD lore elves reach maturity at, like, 100 years old so a 25-yo human trying to get with a 50-year-old elf would be predatory to the young elf even though the “younger” one is technically twice as old as the human. Do you see what I’m saying?

I also don’t really buy the idea that Invader Zim’s writing resonates with people because Zim is ~~so human~~. The guy steals a bunch of kid’s organs in one episode and flies into a tantrum over the slightest inconvenience. You have to be reading really deeply into it and dig into some old internet archives of things Jhonen Vasquez has said to paint it as realistic. You can do some interesting things with it wrt like, Zim being defective and starting to experience human emotions but that’s mostly fanon.

Well, you’ve given me some things to think about, thanks for explaining your side to me. I’m still going to tag things as #zadr so people can block if it can’t plausibly be categorized as zadf. I’m not actually making any fan content for Invader Zim so the point is kind of moot, but if I ever do I’ll definitely take this into consideration.

#invader zim #zadr #submission

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hellzyeahthewebwieldingavenger · 5 years

Text

Spider-Force #2 Thoughts

The text at the issue’s end advertising issue #3 includes the phrase ‘what-the-heck-just-happened’.

All too appropriate for this series.

In issue #1 there was a sense of...confusion on my part. A sense of ‘why is this happening, who are these people, what’s going on’. Not for the over all plot but for specific elements, such as regarding Charlie. I thought maybe the consequent issues will flesh this out.

But with issue #2 I doubt that.

Some things were answered but other things played out in head scratching ways. In fairness I think it’s less a matter of what happened so much as the presentation of it.

I think the key example here is Ashley and Charlie’s relationship.

The idea that Ashley would seek to connect to a version of her grandfather isn’t an uninteresting angle per se.

However having her open up to Charlie and encourage Charlie himself to open up to her whilst they are literally tumbling through space is a baffling creative decision. I’m wondering if Priest went that direction to be funny (he does lampshade it a little) or if he just needed to cram it in there.

This baffling use of presentation applies to stuff that is initially confusing but gets answered later, but isn’t presented initially as something that is posing a mystery or a question in the first place. One example would be Charlie’s initial recruitment and him saving the falling safe. Another would be when we get 3 flashbacks in a row from the POV of Astro-Spider, Ashley and Charlie. When you first see this it’s very confusing because they don’t seem to line up and it’s not clear that we are getting flashbacks to all 3 characters. The fact that Charlie’s past was being dived into was immediately made clear when he yells for Astro-Spider to get out of his head. But it isn’t until way later in the comic that we find out we also got to see Ashley’s past.

Granted maybe that’s on my end because I’m not overly familiar with Ashley.

This brings up a point of debate regarding presumed knowledge on the readers’ parts. I have read Old Man Logan but it was a while back and shockingly I was more focussed upon Logan’s story than anyone else’s. And yet knowing the wider world building and Ashley’s angle would’ve made a point of alienation in the story much more accessible, but I was never told or reminded of that aspect. In contrast though Astro-Spider’s origin is clearly connected to the cosmic rays that created the Fantastic Four. And at first I didn’t bat an eye at that because of course I know the F4’s origins. But then I got to Ashley’s character and it made me realize if you didn’t know the F4’s origin you’d seriously be baffled by Astro-Spider’s. So at the end of the day I feel very much it’s a failing on Priest’s part that he doesn’t have some kind of exposition or explanation that will be more inviting to new or unfamiliar readers. After all it’s maybe one thing to presume general knowledge about Spider-Man when you are writing a Spidey tie-in for a Spidey event but quite another when doing that to presume they’ve also read F4 and Wolverine comics.

Even putting aside the issue of presumed knowledge there is a certain...cheapness to the modest exploration of Ashley’s character and her relationship with Charlie.

Now I read Old Man Logan a while back (and wasn’t impressed at all) and don’t remember everything about it. I also didn’t read all of Spider-Verse and skimmed a lot of the stuff I did ‘read’. So maybe I’m forgetting or in the dark about something in need of enlightening. But I don’t remember Ashley being a sexual abuse survivor. I don’t remember Ashley having particular connections to her grandpa Peter Parker.

These elements to her are thrown into this and the last comic and then exaggerated in order to give her some kind of emotional angle through her connection to Charlie. Now first of all throwing in so casually an abuse backstory for any character is pretty messed up (not helped when pages later the Inheritors are framed as pedophiles when...they’re really not at all). Second of all if Ashley really felt this kind of connection to her grandpa...wouldn’t that have come up earlier?

I mean she is emphasising a familiar connection with a version of Peter Parker who doesn’t wear the regular costume, has a drastically different character and backstory, isn’t even called ‘Peter’ and is barely a teenager not an older man like her grandpa. Surely there were other Peter Parkers around more closely resembling her grandfather. IIRC wasn’t Otto in Spider-Verse pretending to be Peter Parker initially? What about Kaine even? You could argue she connects with Charlie due to a similar backstory of being a child victim and growing up fast, but other Spiders were tough too and even if you disagree again it’s just sort of thrown in there. It’s lazy development.

It isn’t even that these aspects couldn’t be explored or make for interesting angles on what is ultimately a rather bland character. But they sort of just show up they aren’t conveyed or developed organically at all. The same applies to her over all relationship with Charlie.

If I had to guess the root of this is that there is too much going on in this comic. Priest simultaneously needs to serve the plot of the over all event he’s tying into but also wants to dosome character stuff and develop and flesh out his original contributions. And in 3 issues it just doesn’t work.

A street punk 13 year old Peter Parker who HATES Uncle Ben is a great idea.

A post-apocalyptic waste land criminal, childhood abuse surviving granddaughter of Spider-Man, who wants to connect some version of her long gone grandpa who represents the few good parts of her life is a great angle.

An astronaught Spider-Man who is a familiar face and leader of human survivors in space is a great idea.

A Spider Strikeforce on a suicide mission on a radioactive wasteland working against the clock is a great idea.

A morally grey clone of Peter Parker with a bloody past making tough decisions to serve the greater good is a great idea.

A Spider-Hero who just wants to protect the world for her baby’s sake is a great idea.

A Regency dressed totem vampire on the hunt for a crystal containing her father’s essence in space...is a shite idea but they can’t all be winners.

However when you do these things all at the same time...it becomes an inconsistent rushed mess.

Let’s tangent briefly to talk about a few (the only few) positives of the comic. The art continued to be good even though the new artists doing a few pages aren’t as good as the regular artists and the switch is very noticeable. And Astro-Spider...is a great idea. John Jameson as Spider-Man is something I’ve always been intrigued by but can’t recall ever happening before. This is different to what I imagined because I was thinking he’d be more traditional as Spider-Man not an astronaut version of Spidey. But it’s still brilliant, taking the most famous angle of John Jameson, the F4 and Spidey and smashing them together to create something visually dynamic and fitting for the world we’re in.

Okay the positives are over now lets get back to the problems.

Last issue the recap page seemed at odds with the internal comic story. The same is true for this issue but bizarrely the recap page is now saying something different so it’s at odds with the last issue’s recap page and still at odds with the comic itself.

We’ve gone from a group of Spiders not afraid to die to Spiders who’re willing to do whatever it takes. But last I checked that wasn’t true. Correct me if I’m wrong here but:

a) Was Charlie really established as being willing to do whatever it takes, which in context probably means killing people? He’s more rough and maybe more violent than 616 Peter but is he that extreme really?

b) In the Clone Saga Kaine killed people but he had a rule about hurting innocent people (some exceptions applied). Preeeeetty sure in his solo book at minimum the same applied or else he was in fact more against killing. Didn’t he NOT kill Kraven the Hunter specifically because of that? He also wasn’t ever willing to sacrifice anyone for the greater good last I checked. In fact this is one point I’m 99% resolutely sure is aggressively NOT in character for Kaine. For Otto sure, but Kaine as the comic implies. No fucking way. I dare you to prove me wrong.

c) I know Spider Woman has had spy and HYDRA associations, but is she really of the Wolverine school of thought when it comes to killing. I’m possibly wrong but I don’t think her morals regarding how hardcore you get are that different to Peter Parker’s

So what’s the deal here?

Wouldn’t it be easier to just say this is a team of Spider Bad asses who’re willing to get more rough and violent than the other hero’s?

Part of Kaine’s (meagre) characterization in this story is in fact connected to the ‘whatever it takes’ angle of the story. Like I said this is very out of character for Kaine but it also makes the story more inconsistent. The rationale for Charlie’s inclusion has seemed to be implied variously as him being rougher, him being willing to die (based on what?), him being willing to do whatever it takes (based on what?), him being willing to save people from a falling safe (just like...pretty much ever Spider-Hero here) and now we’re hearing it’s because he’s bait.

Because the Inheritors are sort of like pedophiles apparently and they like that young spider meat, like veal I guess. Um....again correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure that’s bullshit, pretty sure the youth of their targets isn’t that big of a deal to them. But then again I’m also pretty sure that they can only drain the life forces of totems yet Verna bafflingly can just take ANYONE’s life forces...wtf??????

Connected to this WTFness is the fact that Charlie out of nowhere seems to just know the Inheritors have a preference for young meat. How and when did he figure that out exactly? He didn’t even know about the Inheritors until less than 24 hours ago.

Speaking of time...let’s do a rundown of everything that’s happened between their arrival in issue #1 to the end of issue #2.

So they’ve shown up, Kaine’ sabotaged their transport devices, they’ve battled Astro-Spider, he’s given them exposition and they’ve talked, they’ve located and boarded his space ship, then they’ve had an alert from his space station prompting another skirmish, then they’ve gone into space, divided their team, gotten to their designated target zones and whilst all this is going on Verna got into the station with her gang and had killed over 30 people and searched the place.

And according to issue #1 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall that...happens in under 15 minutes...

Fuck.

Off.

More than anything that time limit has irreparably wrecked the internal logic and consistency of this story.

Even moreso than the fact that the baffling fact that Solus’ crystal somehow ended up in space. I mean last I checked Mayday threw it into the radioactive world for Daemos to fetch. I’m not saying there is no way for it to have been lost and taken into space but no comic in the entire event has addressed that at all.

Skim Astro-Spider’s backstory and pages if you want but otherwise I recommend not reading this crap.

P.S. The explanation for the name ‘Inheritors’ seems inconsistent with the explanation given previously IIRC

P.P.S. Editing this in after the fact. But...

a) How and why does John have the ruby that turns him into Man-Wolf if he’s got Spider powers?

b) How and why does John know who Peter Parker is? It’s written as though he knows he was the hero Spider-Man but in this universe he wasn’t Ben Parker was.

P.P.P.S. What was with all the PG swearing where they used safe versions of common curse words? It felt tryhard edgy to me.

#Spider-Force #Spider-Geddon #Morlun #Inheritors #the Inheritors #Spider-Man #Peter Parker #Christopher Priest #Ashley Barton #Kaine #Kaine Parker #Scarlet Spider #John Jameson #Spider Woman #Jessica Drew

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kcwcommentary · 5 years

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VLD6x05 – “The Black Paladins”

6x05 – “The Black Paladins”

I guess we’re supposed to assume that Joaquim Dos Santos considered this a really important episode since he has the writing credit for it. This is it, the big reveal of the clone. This episode leaves me annoyed at Honerva, angry at Pidge, and hurt by knowing the full scope of the clone story and how it ends up being just a gimmick posing as poignancy.

Starting where last episode ended, Voltron is fighting Lotor’s ships. Allura must have really slammed Lotor hard when she threw him last episode because he’s still unconscious. I guess since this show was released whole-season on Netflix, most viewers go immediately from finishing the last episode and start watching this one, so they’re carrying over any energy from the previous ending. Since I have a day in between with this viewing, I’m not feeling much weight from this fight right up front. There is nothing in the narrative to reignite the tension. It’s just a space fight.

Coran communicates that he’s bringing the Castle Ship to the fight, but Keith tells him no, saying the Castle wouldn’t fare well against these ships. Voltron’s pinned against an asteroid by Lotor’s ships hitting it with a sustained blaster beam. Immediately negating telling Coran to keep the Castle Ship out of the fight, Keith then asks Coran to destroy the asteroid. I’m not sure I’ve seen the show’s writing demonstrate inconsistency that quickly before.

Lotor’s ships give Voltron enough space and time for Voltron to fly through the rocky debris from Daibazaal, where Keith orders Lance and Pidge to “get us some cover,” so they blast the asteroids. Somehow, the asteroids weren’t cover, but now blown-up asteroids are? They’re just randomly shooting rocks, so it’s not like the weapons fire itself is functioning as cover fire.

A purple, and thus evil because evil is color-coded in this show, wormhole appears. Allura says, “It has to be Haggar. She must have gained the ability, but how?” It actually doesn’t, for once, feel like a jump to a conclusion that Allura would think it’s Haggar. The delivery of this line sounds unintentionally funny though.

“But Shiro’s not Shiro anymore,” Hunk says. That’s really quick of Hunk to so fully dismiss a friend as gone. Keith counters that “something is wrong with him. The Galra or Lotor have to be behind it.”

Voltron, or at least the Black Lion’s wings, start sparking electricity. Keith says his thrusters aren’t working. Pidge replies, “Those beams torched our power core.” All this kind of feels spastic to me. The Lions/Voltron has/have been beaten so much and never really shown to be damageable. Repairs are never shown being made to the Lions. The near invulnerability the show’s given Voltron for so many seasons makes me have trouble with the idea that now they can take physical damage.

Lotor’s ships get through the wormhole, but Voltron isn’t going to make it. Keith orders Voltron to break up so that the process will propel him through the wormhole. It doesn’t logistically feel realistic, but there is an emotional reason for the narrative to have it happen. I don’t like that it makes it such that only Keith is pursuing Shiro now because it has this, maybe unintentional, way of making it feel like the other Paladins don’t care enough about Shiro to fight for him. I say maybe unintentional because I really do want to give the benefit of the doubt, but honestly, I don’t think they wrote the characters in this show to behave like they care about each other most of the time.

Keith pops out the other side of the wormhole to be faced with a bunch of Galra cruisers, which fire on him. Axca moves to attack Keith while Ezor and Zethrid help get Lotor and Shiro to Honerva. She specifically calls Haggar by the name Honerva. That’s a huge thing. For Haggar to now present herself as Honerva to Axca, Ezor, and Zethrid, but to not show how any of the three of them handle being told feels like something’s been left out. Being Honerva was a huge thing Haggar kept hidden for a long while, so why is she now open about it? I know she went to Oriande and came out of the pyramid and resumed her Honerva appearance there, but why are the Galra now okay with following her with her having revealed she’s full Altean? Don’t Axca, Ezor, and Zethrid think Honerva’s a huge hypocrite for not being even part Galra while having condemned Lotor, saying he wasn’t fit to rule the Empire because he was only half-Galra back in 5x04 “Kral Zera?” For that matter, since Axca, Ezor, and Zethrid themselves are only part-Galra, how were they not offended in that moment when Haggar said that to Lotor in that episode?

Keith and Axca fighting one-on-one here adds to the previous moments the show has hinted at something connecting these two characters together. The show eventually abandons further developing this plot, never producing any narrative resolution for the set-up. Since Joaquim Dos Santos and Lauren Montgomery said in that interview that they thought about killing Hunk and replacing him with Axca, I guess their deciding to not do that made them just give up on whatever these Keith-Axca moments were supposed to be setting up.

Lotor’s finally conscious. Shiro has him in handcuffs, which feels strange for him to be treated like a prisoner since this whole story from the end of the last episode until this scene has had a tonal quality of a rescue mission. Zethrid takes Lotor and tells Shiro, “We’ll take it from here.” Shiro just stands there, staring into the distance. Ezor follows after Zethrid, and we see Honerva looking through Shiro’s eyes.

She tells him, “You are to lead the Black Lion away from the fleet.” In a very flat voice, Shiro asks how, and Honerva says, “The Red Paladin’s connection to you runs deep, deeper than the others. He still believes there is good left inside you, which leaves him vulnerable to persuasion. You will exploit this weakness.” Okay, this episode was written by Joaquim Dos Santos, so one of the people who should most understand the story being told. Why then did he write Honerva to call Keith the “Red Paladin?” Keith hasn’t been the Red Paladin for a long time. He hasn’t flown any Lion since 4x01 “Code of Honor,” and he hasn’t flown the Red Lion since 3x02 “Red Paladin.” Of course, I think Keith should be and should always have been the Red Paladin, but the show hasn’t had him be that for a long time. So why was Honerva written to refer to him by that title? Is this a slip up showing that even Joaquim Dos Santos knows deep down that changing the Paladins around was totally forced?

Honerva does confirm for us that Keith does care more about Shiro than the other Paladins do. On one hand, it’s not expected since the two of them have a much longer and personal history than Shiro has with the others. But on the other hand, it does kind of feel like the show confirming how this clone plot makes it feel like the other Paladins just don’t care because the show didn’t bother to make them care.

“He still believes there is good left inside you.” This line infuriates me because it’s a manifestation of what the EPs, and the writers thought of the clone. One, for first time viewers who don’t yet know this is a clone, it’s really hurtful for this line to suggest that Shiro’s evil. Implicit in Honerva’s statement is that there is no good left inside him. But even knowing that this is a clone, it’s still hurtful. The idea that Honerva flipped a switch and all of the good was obliterated from within the clone is an insult to everyone who grew to love this character over the past several seasons. But this is the show justifying its desire to discard the clone as an “evil thing” without having to have any characters feel bad about dehumanizing him and treating him like trash. That the show has the characters so quickly willing to discard the clone is a manifestation of how the EPs and the writers only ever saw him as a “thing” themselves, never as a character. Despite that perspective from them though, they still inadvertently wrote him as a character because they were trying to build up this surprise twist. What was supposed to just be a cover to set up for the reveal ended up being mostly really good characterization. Despite their planned end goal for the clone, they never realized that viewers would get attached to him. Their shortsightedness is one of the aspects of this story that really bothers me.

Honerva is now back to using her monotone Honerva voice instead of the far easier to listen to Haggar voice. I clearly don’t like Haggar/Honerva much at all in this show. She was okay in seasons one and two, but not for the rest of the series. I would much rather have Haggar’s voice than Honerva’s. For the most part, the voice acting on this show is one of the good things about the show, even if the story was terrible and the dialog was bad or off, the actual sound of the voices were good. Who thought this monotone Honerva voice was a good choice?

Keith sees the Altean pod flying away from everything, and Keith assumes that it’s Shiro. It is, but there’s no reason for Keith to assume that instead of just some miscellaneous Galra sentry piloting it. The Galra all jump away while Keith follows after Shiro.

The other Paladins have gotten their Lions back into the Castle Ship. Hunk says the Lions are, “structurally speaking, at about 60%.” That should mean 40% of them were bashed up so much that they would look very visibly destroyed, but this statement ultimately means nothing since the Lions are never shown with any physical damage.

The Castle Ship’s systems shut down. Coran announces a risk that has never come up before, including when the Castle has had all its systems shut down before, that if the “teludav regulator” shuts down, the Castle and everything in the “neighboring system” will be destroyed. Since there are other instances where this would have come into play earlier in the series and it never did, that makes this totally contrived. I honestly don’t care about what’s going on with the rest of the Paladins and the Castle Ship right now.

Lotor, still handcuffed, is brought to Honerva. She takes her hood off, turns to him, and says, “Prince Lotor, my son.” The camera quickly pans to Axca, Ezor, and Zethrid, who all have shocked expressions. Why are any of them surprised? Axca earlier used Honerva’s name when telling Ezor and Zethrid to get Lotor to Honerva. It can’t be that they’re reacting to her calling Lotor her son because everyone in the Empire knows that Honerva was Lotor’s mother. This is just another inconsistency in the writing.

“Understand that the events that transformed me into the witch Haggar also shrouded any glimmer of maternal instinct I may have had for my one and only child,” Honerva says. If you’ve read my commentary for 3x07 “The Legend Begins,” then you can probably guess what I’m going to say here. Honerva had no motherly qualities pre-quintessence poisoning whatsoever. The show making this statement now is an absolute retcon of her character. Also, the whole use of the dual identity – Honerva versus Haggar – is an attempt by the show, the EPs, and the writers to avoid responsibility for having written Haggar as a brutal, dictatorial character now that they think they’re adding depth to her character. They weren’t willing to embrace this character as a single character and one who’s a villain, and the dual identity is how they’re trying to buy space for wanting to write the character differently than what they set the character up as in the first two seasons.

Lotor says, “Enough! My mother ceased to exist when Honerva drew her last breath. Do not believe for a moment that I would ever accept you as kin. You are an abomination. A twisted perversion of what was once so pure and beautiful.” I do not blame Lotor for rejecting her. Despite what some people say, someone who’s been abused does not have to accept and forgive their abuser. It is a bit bothersome that Lotor thinks Honerva was “pure and beautiful” since he never knew Honerva since she adopted the Haggar persona before she gave birth. We can assume that this is similar to his sharp reaction to Allura in 5x05 “Bloodlines” when Allura supposed that Haggar and Honerva were the same person. Lotor seemed to have constructed a fantasy about what his mother was like, and that might be how we should read this line here too.

Honerva glares at Lotor and orders, “Take him away.” The fact that she had him brought to her in handcuffs demonstrates that for all her posturing suggesting she wants to ask him to accept her, she still is treating him like a prisoner. She might want to pretend she’s trying to find some motherly capacity, but the circumstances of her having him brought to her prove that to be a lie.

Axca tries to shoot Honerva, but Honerva teleports away. Zethrid asks Axca, “Are you working with Lotor?” And Lotor replies, “I can explain everything.” Are they really trying to pretend that Axca has been a mole for Lotor the entire time? Ugh.

Lotor wants to grab his ships and “head to the Castle of Lions’ last known location.” Why it’s phrased that way, I don’t know, since that location was Daibazaal.

With the Black Lion’s wing still sparking, Keith has followed Shiro to an asteroid or moon near a planet. He follows Shiro’s footprints into a cave, eventually finding a Galra facility. Inside, Keith sees many stasis pods. He approaches one, touches it, light comes on inside, and it reveals a Shiro clone. Dozens and dozens of other pods light up, revealing more clones.

Here’s a huge problem I have with the clone plotline: What is the point of the clones? This facility, the personnel, time, and resources that went into running it and conducing the cloning program, those are all a significant investment. Why? If it had been just one clone made, it could be argued that Haggar’s plan was to use the clone to spy on the other Paladins. But she had a lot of clones made, so what was the point? What was her goal? Why did she do this? The show never answers this.

I think the reason the show never answers it is because they EPs and writers never thought to answer it. They were never writing the clone story to actually be an actual part of the show. It’s inclusion in the show is not intentional. They used the clone story to bring Shiro back into the show because they were told they couldn’t kill him off like they wanted to. As such, the clone story is nothing but a gimmick. They never thought to think through the implications.

This also makes me think of how in 1x13 “The Black Paladin,” Haggar tells Shiro, “You could have been our greatest weapon.” That line is never explained and resolved. So too is the clone program never explained, and its resolution is just to provide Shiro’s soul with a body.

Back on the Castle Ship, Pidge informs the others that she recognizes the computer code that has shut down the Castle. It’s the same as is in Shiro’s Galra arm prosthetic. I’ll say more about this in a bit, but it infuriates me.

“Wait, are you saying Shiro is responsible for this?” Allura asks, and Pidge says, “Yes.” This scene is written to elicit a shocked response, but because we’ve already had the revelation of the clones in this episode, it doesn’t shock us. The episode has already created a narrative distance between any sabotage the clone did prior to leaving with Lotor. Even if the other Paladins don’t yet know about the clones and thus think it was Shiro who sabotaged the Castle, we viewers don’t. That makes their being shocked have no real weight. Maybe it’s an issue of bad editing decisions, though I would think something like where different parts of scenes are situated should have long been decided during the storyboarding stage much earlier in the process of creating an episode.

Shiro attacks Keith. In the process, the show reveals Shiro’s arm to be able to generate an energy sword, which, unless I’m mistaken, has never happened before.

The teludav continues to be a problem. Pidge does something and everything’s fine.

She says she had copied the code from Shiro’s arm and used it to create a virus that “could terminate all its command prompts in case something like this ever happened.” This makes me severely dislike Pidge. She knew this malicious code existed in Shiro’s arm. She’s known it for some time. She recognized it for being malicious code enough that she used that code to create a virus to use as a countermeasure “in case something like this ever happened.” She knew all along that there was a potential security issue, and she never told anyone? She didn’t think everyone else should know this? She didn’t respect Shiro enough to let him know the danger he carried in his arm? This is not how friends behave. This is not how teammates behave.

I already have a lot of reasons to dislike Pidge. She’s shortsighted, prone to irrational thought in dire moments. She’s selfish. And now, she’s incompetent. She does not care about any of these people, least of all Shiro. And she never faces any consequences of her behavior. None of them should trust her after this. She should have to go through a huge story arc to regain their trust, to earn forgiveness. But she never does. If she had told them what she found, they could have worked to make sure this would never happen. Rather than construct a virus to serve as a countermeasure, they could have worked to keep this from ever happening.

But part of this is the fault of the show’s writing. The easiest thing would have been to just not have any of this part that takes place here on the Castle Ship in the show. But if this idea that Shiro’s arm contained malicious code, and Pidge knew about it and said nothing, then her saying nothing is contrived so that the show can preserve its desired plot twist. With Pidge having discovered the code, it was incumbent upon her to tell everyone, and that would mean that they would have found a way to keep it from happening, which could reasonably have led to them learning about Shiro being a clone who was capable of being controlled by Haggar.

And it’s not like these characters didn’t have multiple opportunities to further investigate what has been going on with Shiro. Pidge, for example, saw Shiro grab his head and cry out in pain in 6x01 “Omega Shield.” She never followed up on that. It’s not normal for someone to react in pain like Shiro did in that episode, but no one cared about him enough to try to figure out what was wrong. Lance knew something weird happened with Shiro in 5x03 “Postmortem,” and he only halfway followed up on that. Shiro then confided in Lance that he didn’t “feel like himself.” Lance never followed up on that. Friends don’t react like this, so I have to conclude that Keith is the only one to ever consider Shiro a friend.

Keith and Shiro continue to fight. The music is really good.

“That’s the Keith I remember,” the clone taunts Keith. Aside from being just generic villainous taunting, I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean. I can’t tell if Keith’s eyes turn a little cat-like for a moment, or if the animation is just odd. They’re fighting on a different level of the facility where there are more stasis pods. There must be hundreds of clones here.

I also wonder how much thought went into the visual design of this location. The facility looks totally open to space, and yet they are breathing air. That would require the facility to be surrounded by an invisible forcefield to hold the air in. Probably in the same way the show’s visual design gives us so many impossible planet shapes without any thought to what they’re designing, so too, this facility was designed for a visual effect without any thought about how this facility would actually function.

Keith says, “Shiro, I know you’re in there. You made a promise once. You told me you’d never give up on me.” This is some good voice acting for Keith.

Shiro responds, “And I should have abandoned you, just like your parents did. They saw that you were broken, worthless. I should have seen it too.” I guess this is supposed to come from the clone’s psychic programming warping whatever memories it has from Shiro of Keith confiding in him about feeling abandoned by his parents? I mean, I’m trying to apply logistics and realism to this dialog when I imagine that JDS only wrote it because he wanted the clone to say something hurtful to Keith, and since this is what Keith has wrestled with, that’s what he used.

“Neither of us are leaving,” Shiro says, and the facility starts to light up all over the place. Either Shiro’s arm has some wireless communication system built into it and he just triggered the facility, or that’s contrived timing. But what this glowing is supposed to mean, I don’t know, because the facility isn’t destroyed by some self-destruct, it’s destroyed by Shiro.

The prostetic starts glowing. Shiro starts screaming in pain and falls to his knees. The prosthetic starts blasting a beam of energy that slices into the facility. (Did Pidge miss, ignore, or keep to herself the ability for the arm to do this too?)

The music is really awesome again.

Keith maneuvers to avoid Shiro’s energy blasts and to make it to a stable part of the facility, ending up exhausted and on his back. Shiro eventually comes to stand over Keith. He swings his energy sword at Keith, who blocks it with his blade.

More good voice acting for Keith: “Shiro, please. You’re my brother. I love you.” It gets through, past the programming controlling the clone, just for a bit.

“Just let go, Keith. You don’t have to fight anymore.” I’m not sure what I make of this line. “By now, the team’s already gone. I saw to it myself.” This line sounds like cliché villain dialog.

Keith’s eyes turn yellow for a moment. I know Keith is half-Galra, but since when is he a shapeshifter?

Keith’s blade grows, and he chops off Shiro’s prosthetic. There’s something revealed here that I’m going to eventually write a separate post about during my commentaries next season.

Shiro falls to his knees. the facility starts to explode and break apart. The music is again amazing.

Shiro is unconscious, Keith barely holding onto him and barely holding onto his blade, which is wedged into the facility. Keith experiences some flashbacks, just silent shots that we’ll see more from in 7x01 “A Little Adventure.”

The structure of the facility breaks loose, and they plummet down toward the planet. Keith closes his eyes, seemingly resigned to dying.

There’s a flashback scene. We see Keith younger at the Galaxy Garrison, beat up. Keith thinks he should just be sent back to the orphanage he lived at prior to joining the Garrison. Shiro tells him, “Keith, you can do this. I will never give up on you. More importantly, you can’t give up on yourself.” Keith, falling down to the planet, opens his eyes, and the episode ends.

I’m not adverse to the premise of the clone plotline. As much as it angers me that Joaquim Dos Santos and Lauren Montgomery wanted to kill Shiro, and as much as they didn’t want to bring him back, I’m not bothered by the idea of doing so through a clone story. The problem is that the story is not told well. There is never an explanation for why so many clones were created. There is never any fallout for this plot. No one grieves for the clone, no one even recognizes the clone as being a person. They instantly mentally discard him, and that’s a direct manifestation of how the EPs and writers only ever see the clone as a gimmick, not as a character. Once Shiro’s soul is put in the clone’s body, without any of the characters wrestling with the idea of taking the body away from the soul of the clone (more manifestation of the plot resolving because the EPs and writers only saw the clone as a gimmick), Shiro himself never wrestles with the reality that he’s in another person’s body.

I love the music of this episode. The episode clearly wants to be viewed as deeply emotional, but I watch it now and feel like I’m having to add to the episode to produce my emotional reaction, not that the episode is fully drawing that reaction out of me.

#voltron legendary defender #voltron #vld #voltron criticism #vld criticism #voltron critical #vld critical #vld season 6 #vld 6x05 #commentary

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