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mdhwrites · 1 day

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Have you seen the leaked TOH pilot and pitch bible yet? IMO it’s crazy how most of it is better than the final product.

I have! And... I don't know if I entirely agree with that.

What I found most fascinating about it is that a lot of the contradictions and issues of scope with TOH that doomed it are still in the pitch bible itself. Just some quick examples of what I'm talking about: When talking about themes, they talk about Fantasy versus Reality but it's as shallow as it is in the show. After all, one of the episode concepts pitched within it features a plot that has Luz literally going "This is just like in my fanfiction!" and being better able to handle it because of that.

It builds up the emperor of the land and Belos (known as Oberon) when talking about them but NONE of the plotlines include Oberon in the episode pitches or even mention the coven system for that matter. They are still barely a thing to the show with the only episode concept about that part of the show being the one about William.

An utter lack of real stakes like how King has to face the deep crises of a decision of either being a lackey to the people he used to run with while also losing any chance to ever reclaim his lost power... Or he can save Eda and Luz and lose the chance to work with these people again. That's not really a compelling decision, is it?

The pitch also claims that the show will mostly be about Luz and Eda's relationship and how Luz's determination will push Eda to be a better person... And most of the episodes pitched are still not actually about the two spending time together. Just Eda making Luz upset so she goes off to do her own thing, just like the same problem as in the actual series.

You actually have MORE characters in this version which sucks harder for trying to narrow things down, especially since more of them are disconnected from each other than before. At least Boscha, unlike Pascha, has a connection to literally anyone in the main cast.

You also have stupidity with your magic still. "Look! I need to work hard to make small objects float!" And apparently that's enough to make all of Hexside lose their fucking minds. WHY!? In 90% of settings, that is as basic as the light spell Luz learns. It's why it's one of the first spells Harry learns.

Oh and let's not forget "Almost all known portals to the human realm have been severed" but apparently Amity has access to one of those known portals freely enough to attend two schools. It's a small thing but it would cause problems in theory.

BUT.

I will give credit to this: Luz is MUCH more compelling in this version. I think if there is something that is just unequivocally true, it's that. She is way less inoffensively nerdy, instead her interests being more upfront and troublesome, helping explain why that would be why she is rejected and not because, you know, she puts people in danger. Also her rise to power is just better.

Arguably, Luz in canon is a chosen one essentially from episode FOUR onwards. Now, this is up for debate but being given a power almost out of nowhere, with no training, that no one else has, is usually a sign of a chosen in a narrative. Episode 4 is when she gets the light glyph. She doesn't work for it, it's not a big character growth moment, etc. like that. She mostly just oops into it. Making it that Luz ACTUALLY has to work for her magic and the show actually has to explore how the magic works, making it so she has something to learn is just strictly better, especially for the concept of her learning to be a witch. Eda would actually be able to teach her something instead of shrugging and going "Welp, good luck!"

I will say that the bible does also lean more into an adventurous aspect though. This version of episodes would easily be more fantastical and include more magic in them which would help the Isles not feel so much like our realm. I will say the fact that there's also active anti-human prejudice also would be good because then Luz being human would, you know... Matter. Not that the Isles is really given a personality even here besides the oppression they're theoretically under. It's still a very generic fantasy setting.

A lot of the rest though? It's really not that unique or different from the show itself. Lilith is almost exactly the same, Tibbles is just Gus but a demon, there are slightly more restrictions on things like being human or magic but, you know, the show didn't care about its one law, why would it care about three? Even Amity, who does look better on here, is only because it's on paper. This is literally just Amity's pitch in S1 after all. All the reasons people loved Amity are here.

Conceptually it is fine but I am surprised about how not only this got picked up but also how it was greenlit so heavily as to get a pilot animatic, with voice acting, based on these concepts. There's just some very clear cleaning up that needs to be done, basic questions on its own setting and own logic that isn't even playing into the comedy/fantasy angles that could let you let it pass. It's not all of them or even the majority but a skeptical prereader could even raise these basic sorts of inconsistencies like the ones I brought up above. After all, this is half a season's worth of episodes pitched and a fifth of them are still going to Amity and more of them have Luz directly interacting with King than they do Eda.

There's a final thing I have to bring up due to it being why I think the show changed so drastically from this pitch bible to its final form: This is way more complicated. TOH already has extremely decompressed storytelling and too many elements working in tandem. Meanwhile, every character is MORE complicated in this one and less connected to each other, necessitating that each, except maybe Eda, will take more time to get through their stuff. The writing team either had to sharpen how much they could do in an episode or simplify and congregate elements. We see this a LOOOOT in S2A, especially Escaping Expulsion, where it seems the writers went "Even with three whole seasons planned, we don't have enough time to do everything we want to, the way we like to, so we need to start cutting and simplifying even more than before."

One example of this that's really easy: In the pitch bible, Willow is a random witch who lives near Eda. Well that means she'll likely either take time out of a couple episodes as she's introduced or take up an entire episode just for herself. Tibbles is also just on their own, like in the show. Introducing both of these characters is not really an option. However, put them both into Hexside and suddenly you can introduce three characters at the same time organically, like we saw with I Was a Teenage Abomination.

Luz just being gifted magic is another element to this. Her having to actually experiment for every spell and having to have a real system to her spells limits what she can do but also means spending a LOT more time on her magic. You can't just have a flower open up and give her the glyph of the day as easily, nor have her be able to throw her spells around as she wants. Making it so she just needs reams of paper and/or a marker makes it a lot easier and simpler to have her start casting magic.

This version of TOH would have SHATTERED under its own scope while the current version mostly bends and cracks from it. However, if people do use this to go "FUCK DISNEY EVEN HARDER!" I won't be surprised. Grand scope ALWAYS looks better on paper than it does in action. It sounds epic and multi-faceted and complex. The problem is that it still has to fit its format and it is MUCH harder to execute on than a more simple concept.

There's a reason the only perfect project is the one you never do because you can promise the world without ever having to deliver. So, while it's nice to see an earlier version, I am by no means going to say this would have been a better version of TOH.

======+++++======

Sorry for anyone hoping for a link to the pitch bible btw. I just don't have one as I got given it as a document.

I have a public Discord for any and all who want to join!

I also have an Amazon page for all of my original works in various forms of character focused romances from cute, teenage romance to erotica series of my past. I have an Ao3 for my fanfiction projects as well if that catches your fancy instead. If you want to hang out with me, I stream from time to time and love to chat with chat.

A Twitter you can follow too

And a Kofi if you like what I do and want to help out with the fact that disability doesn’t pay much.

#the owl house criticism #toh critical #toh #the owl house

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they-call-me-haiku · 5 months

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whenever someone says they dislike huntlow, the usual comeback from toxic huntlow fans is that “you're a misogynist and you don't want to see the woman in a relationship being stronger”. so i want to address this issue today. is huntlow bad only because willow is stronger than hunter and isn't a damsel in distress?

in my opinion, absolutely not. that's not the case. i myself am a fan of subverted tropes and relationships where the woman isn't just a passive damsel with no personality. i like seeing independent women and i like seeing men being vulnerable for once.

to demonstrate my point on why huntlow doesn't pull off this trope well, let me compare it to a ship with a similar dynamic: sokka and suki from avatar the last airbender.

let's go through each of the reasons why sukka works as a ship where huntlow fails.

1. Does it make sense for the characters?

the first question here is: do the roles of the strong independent woman and weaker man suit these characters?

sokka was introduced as.. just a guy. he was a regular teenager who wasn't trained in combat. he could fight well enough if he wanted to and being the only man in a village full of mostly children and elders, he was the best warrior in his village (if we are even to believe his claims in s1, that is).

suki, on the other hand, was a trained warrior. she had spent her whole life training in combat and fighting to continue kyoshi's legacy. in her very first appearance, suki is confirmed to be a skilled warrior who is much stronger than sokka.

this setup makes perfect sense. it wouldn't come as a surprise later on that suki is stronger or a better fighter than sokka, and would have to rescue him or help him out in a moment of crisis.

now let's come to huntlow. in s2, hunter is introduced as the emperor's right-hand man who is young but powerful. while most of his intimidation factor came from his artificial staff, it was clear that he was not an amateur and had decent combat skills.

this assumption is only solidified when we see him go head to head with amity, only losing because 1. he was using a new staff 2. he was sleep deprived and 3. he was in an extremely erratic emotional state.

willow, on the other hand, was the sokka in this relationship. she was a regular teenager who grew up in a normal family and went to a regular magic high school.

she was certainly incredibly skilled in plant magic but she was not a trained child soldier like hunter. she had a lot of potential to be a good fighter but she had only recieved the education that every other student had recieved. not to mention, most of her stronger magic came from her emotional outbursts.

so.. does the whole girlboss-malewife dynamic work with huntlow? no. it really doesn't. even if willow trained and grew as a witch, there's no reason why she should be stronger and more skilled in combat than hunter, who had to pass seemingly impossible trials in order to qualify as the golden guard. especially since after the first half of s2, hunter was not only weaker than willow but just weak in general.

i get it, he doesn't have natural magic like the others. but he was still shown to be a very competent fighter. he was also shown to be cunning and strategic, being able to find a way out of any situation if he wanted to. but after joining the hexsquad, he is dumbed down to willow's shy and pathetic boyfriend, who doesn't really do much on his own.

2. are they in character when in a relationship?

when writing a relationship, this is really important. if you write a relationship where one or both characters have to act wildly out of character to make sense for the relationship to happen, those characters are not compatible. it's like when your friend acts uncomfortably different around their crush or partner.

let's start with sokka and suki.

sokka is goofy, cynical and quick-witted, with or without suki. his relationship with suki doesn't drastically change his character, but it does improve it. suki helps sokka change his misogynistic worldviews and respect women, but apart from that necessary improvement, sokka is still the same. he is not out of character when he is with suki.

as for suki herself, we don't see a lot of her away from sokka but it's still safe to assume that she is being herself around sokka. she is not forced into a new role in order to be in a relationship with sokka. the times we do see her on her own, she is pretty much the same rational, independent and nonchalant person that she is around sokka.

and yet, both of them have incredible chemistry and very clearly care for each other. it's not one-sided and it doesn't feel unnatural.

but huntlow?

hunter is introduced as a sarcastic and bratty but deeply traumatized teenager. he is quick to start a banter with whoever he is with, he tends to talk too much, and he generally has a nonchalant attitude to cover up with trauma.

but with willow? hunter is not just shy or awkward around her, he is a completely different person. i can understand that being attracted to a person can make you act strangely sometimes. but with hunter, that awkwardness never fades away. he is always blushing around her, he is often portrayed as pathetic and helpless, and constantly needing willow's support and guidance.

as for willow, she is introduced as this insecure and good-natured teenager. after her confrontation with amity, willow is pushed to the back for a while. all we know about her at that time is that she's the supportive mom friend of the group. she builds her confidence after a while but she is still shown as a kind person who doesn't use force on someone else, unless necessary.

but with hunter? willow is suddenly not just confident but also dominant and forceful. she basically snatches him from the sky and drags him to the ground, just to invite him to her flyer derby team. hunter is practically terrified at this point, but it's played off as a fun cute-meet. later, when hunter wants to leave the team for understandable reasons, instead of respecting his wishes, willow once again forces him to join her again.

i wouldn't call willow toxic or abusive, because she isn't. but i would say that she didn't respect hunter's boundaries in the slightest. she doesn't treat anyone else the way she treats hunter. she's not exactly mean to him but she also does not seem to respect him as an individual. again, she is written wildly out of character just so that she could fulfil the role of the “powerful girlboss” in the relationship. and it doesn't help that a dominant and forceful figure is the last thing hunter needs, considering how he was controlled and abused by his uncle his whole life.

3. Equality

it is my opinion that in a relationship, both individuals should play an important role. and they should balance each other out, instead of clashing with each other. it doesn't necessarily have to be an “opposites attract” situation, they just need to have qualities that brings a balance to the relationship.

in sokka's and suki's relationship, we've already established that suki is the brawn. she's the trained warrior and her agility, skill and speed are her strengths. sokka, on the other hand, is the brains. suki is still a rational and smart person but sokka is the strategist, the “idea guy”.

here, there's a balance. neither sokka nor suki are weak or incompetent, they're just skilled in different areas.

but when it comes to huntlow, willow is the brawn while hunter.. does close to nothing. after meeting willow, he's basically useless. the most impactful thing he does is stand up against belos in “Thanks to Them” and rescue willow from a short fall in the next episode. otherwise, he is mostly pushed to the back despite, again, having a personality and his own strengths prior to meeting willow. the problem here isn't that hunter shouldn't be weak or vulnerable, but rather that he is forced into the damsel role when it goes against his original character.

4. Screentime, interaction and development

one thing that huntlow and sukka had in common is neither ship had too much screentime together. suki wasn't officially part of the gaang until s3 and before that, she just gets two interactions with sokka. but these interactions were used to their fullest potential.

when they first meet each other, sokka and suki do not get along well. sokka was convinced that women aren't good warriors and his pride is hurt by the fact that suki is stronger than him, while suki is understandably put off by sokka's misogynistic and condescending attitude. after he tries to teach her how to fight and is consequently defeated by her, sokka rethinks his worldview. he goes back to suki and asks her to teach him how to fight, apologizing and admitting his mistake. suki agrees to teach him and through this, they bond. it is revealed at the end of the episode that both sokka and suki may or may not have a thing for each other. afterwards, sokka has to leave and suki has to stay behind.

their next meeting is a lot more brief but even here, we see a clear demonstration of their dynamic. sokka is overjoyed to see suki but he still hasn't moved on from yue, so when suki confesses to him and tries to initiate a kiss, sokka rejects her. suki apologizes to him later for what happened, and sokka kisses her as a confirmation that he has now moved on and likes her back. we see a clear respect of boundaries and personal choices from both sides.

finally, after suki is captured by azula, sokka frees her and they are reunited again until the end. at this point, they're basically a couple. there's no more awkward blushing or stuttering; they're just a pair of teenagers who are in love with each other. they have a bit of playful banter and they're very casual and comfortable around each other.

suki was originally supposed to be a one-time character so it's incredible that they pulled off on the best ships in atla with her and sokka. their chemistry was undeniable from the beginning, and the writers knew how to expand on it.

now let's come to huntlow. hunter and willow meet each other for the first time in the s2b episode ‘Any Sport in a Storm’. willow is looking for candidates to join her flyer derby team and she sees hunter flying on his palisman. completely unprovoked, the willow who normally never attacked or forced something on people for no reason, decides that the best way to scout this random guy she doesn't know is by encasing him in vines and dragging him to the ground, destroying the concrete in the process. this may have been portrayed as something of a slapstick comedy, but that kind of humor never stuck with me.

after willow explains herself to hunter, he agrees to join her team, thinking it would be an easy way to recruit students into the emperor's coven. fast forward, they get a few members to their group.

hunter notices that all of these members are visibly slacking off and gets discouraged. he turns to leave and willow stops him in his tracks. when she tells him to give them a chance, hunter ‘opens up’ to her a little, by telling her that he had to earn chances, especially as a “half a witch”. this comes out of nowhere because we never see hunter being referred to as half a witch by anyone prior to this. there were certainly characters who disliked him, like lilith and kikimora, but they called him names like “golden brat”. in fact, it's not even clear if anyone other than hunter and belos knows that he has no magic. the whole half a witch line was added so that hunter and willow would have something in common.

willow, instead of reasoning with hunter or respecting his choice to leave, drags him to the ground once again and seemingly teleports him back to the flyer derby team. while this may not have been done with malicious intent, it was still another instance of willow invading hunter's boundaries and forcing him to do something.

hunter is convinced that the team is, in fact, competent. he plays the game with them and has fun doing it. after getting the team captured to join the emperor's coven and saving them from darius, the episode ends with darius turning out to be the good guy and hunter getting a penstagram (or whatever they call it, i forgot).

after this, the huntlow scenes are very scarce. we barely see them interact, especially not alone with each other. in the next episode, we see willow standing up for hunter and hunter blushing and recognizing that the fake willow isn't willow. while this would be sweet for an already established couple, since hunter and willow barely had a bond at this point, it just comes off as hunter being observant. which is somewhat in character for him.

afterwards, there's just a sprinkle of this ship, most of it consisting of hunter being shy and nervous around willow. and willow treating him like she treats everyone else. there's no sign of willow liking hunter back until literally the episode before the finale. where, instead of focusing on hunter's recent trauma with being possessed by his abusive parent and losing his best friend, the show decides to focus on willow's issues instead. of course willow deserves her own arc, but she already got it back in s1. there was no reason to give her ANOTHER issue to work on, just so that hunter can comfort her and give her a reason to like him back.

overall, it was really forced and these two characters never had the kind of natural chemistry that sokka and suki did. their interactions were either awkward or surface-level wholesome. we get exactly two (2) episodes where they interact properly and even that isn't done well. it just feels like these characters were pushed into a ship dynamic that they didn't naturally fit into.

#anti toh #toh criticism #toh critical #toh discourse #toh salt #anti huntlow #anti huntl0w #toh #atla #avatar the last airbender #the owl house spoilers #the owl house salt #the owl house criticism #the owl house critical #the owl house discourse #the owl house

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imsosocold · 1 year

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#canon do be feeding my hcs that Belos regularly hallucinates out of guilt #the owl house #owl house #toh #the owl house for the future #owl house for the future #toh for the future #the owl house critical #owl house critical #toh critical #the owl house criticism #owl house criticism #toh criticism #anti huntlow #noelle's rambles #excuse the spelling mistakes I'm too tired to fix anything

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derseprinceoftbd · 3 months

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Hot take: the persistent betrayal of the Grimwalkers culminating in Hunter was a bad idea from a writing perspective given everything else. Like... it's just biological determinism. Saying they all followed the Good Path of their Good Main Ingredient. I think like, maybe they should have been *Belos* Clones meant to emulate Caleb, because then it would be Belos driving everyone near him away with his evil? Or maybe that that wouldn't solve the issue... I don't know.

#emperor belos #belos #toh belos #the owl house belos #hunter #hunter the owl house #hunter the golden guard #hunter toh #hunter clawthorne #toh hunter #the owl house hunter #toh criticism #the owl house criticism #toh critical #grimwalker #grimwalkers #caleb wittebane #philip wittebane #the owl house

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stanlunter · 2 months

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I personally don't like Lumity for a few reasons... 1. It kinda makes Luz a terrible friend to Willow, since Luz is befriending Willow's bully (and former friend) behind her back...

2. Luz loses her backbone almost whenever Amity is angry at her, while Luz's rivalry with Hunter felt more equal cause they get angry at each other and Luz isn't afraid to call out Hunter on his crap (unlike with Amity, where Luz doesn't even get angry at her that much for burning Willow's picture memories). Considering how much of a jerk Amity was to Luz before she dyed her hair purple, it's no wonder Luz kept secrets from her and told Hunter instead...

3. Amity's romantic feelings for Luz make no sense. At first, she hated Luz for getting her in trouble in school and for being a human that lacks magical powers. But then Luz gains Amity's respect, when Luz reveals that she can do magic spells in a different way... So yeah, it would make sense for Luz to gain Amity's respect and later maybe friendship. But Amity gaining a crush and slowly becoming obsessed with the human (who's species that she hated) that keeps getting her in trouble is pretty unrealistic. They also had to almost completely change Amity's personality after she made her hair purple, so that Amity can act like 'Luz's 1# Fangirl' while they're dating... They could've at least given Amity a new dream, since she's an ambitious girl and she can't be in the Emperor's Coven anymore! ಠ_ಠ

Sorry for the long answer

But I absolutely agree!

I swear, I LOVE the potential Lumity had, but its realization really makes me cry. Especially since there are not so many well-written AND interesting supphic couples in media and the way they absolutely ruined even this one (which really could be handled so easily) is really sad. If I had to rewrite toh, Lumity would have been changed the most

#Toh #the owl house criticism #toh critical #Anti Lumity #Lumity criticism #The owl house

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azuremist · 1 year

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The worst thing in The Owl House is EASILY the way that BOTH of the “half-a-witch” storylines end up.

Willow’s getting bullied because she’s the witch equivalent of disabled? Well, joke’s on you! She was just in the wrong class! She’s not REALLY disabled, so stop bullying her!

Hunter’s a powerless witchlike being who uses his palisman as a disability aid? BOOM kill off the disability aid, now the disability is cured! Don’t even worry about it!

Wow. Thanks. I hate it.

#we got two storylines based off of characters facing in universe ableism. AND WE DIDNT EVEN GET A DISABLED CHARACTER OUT OF IT.#toh critical #toh criticism #the owl house critical #the owl house criticism #<- tagging it as this so hopefully people won’t be weird about me daring to Have Problems With The Show again #the owl house #hunter #willow #azure does a thing

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flower-boi16 · 4 months

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My Problems With Raine Whispers

Before I start this post, I just want to say that I'm a big fan of The Owl House. It's my personal favorite cartoon of all time - I think it's one of the best modern Disney cartoons out there. That being said, as much as I love The Owl House, the show isn't perfect, and today I'm going to talk about my problems with a specific character from the show; Raine. I never really cared for Raine, I didn't hate them but I didn't really like them either, they were just kinda meh to me. However, after a while I began to realize my real problems with Raine as a character and how their written. This is probably going to be a pretty big hot take so without further ado, let's begin with this post...

1. Raine doesn't feel that developed

This is something that's just an extension of a much bigger problem with Raine that I'll get to later, but a major issue I've always had with Raine is that they never really felt that developed of a character. Seriously, nothing about them was really that interesting to me, the show doesn't really develop them much. Now, I'm not expecting the show to give a full-length character arc to a side character, however, the show has many side characters like Matholamule, Hooty, Viney, and Boscha.

Raine has waaaay more screen time and plot importance than any of the characters I just mentioned yet they still feel less developed than those characters. Granted, this is probably something that could just be blamed on the shortening, but it's still a major problem nonetheless. But this is something that is just a part of a greater issue, which is the fundamental problem with Raine to me:

2. Raine feels solely defined by Eda

This is my biggest issue with Raine; their character feels like it's solely defined by Eda. Now, having a relationship with another character be a core aspect of a character isn't a bad thing; take Amity for example, Amity's relationship with Luz is definitely an important part of her character, the first thing people think about whenever they think about Amity is that she is Luz's girlfriend.

However, while Amity's relationship with Luz is a core aspect of her character, she isn't just "Luz's girlfriend". There are still many aspects of Amity's character beyond her relationship with Luz, and she gets her own character arc of gradually becoming a better person throughout Season 1. Even in Season 2 where people say that Amity is just reduced to "Luz's girlfriend" she still has some episodes in Season 2 developing her as a character where they explore her relationship with her parents.

And If I'm going to be honest, Raine kinda feels like everything that people say Season 2 Amity is. Like, really think about it, what other aspects are there about Raine's character aside from "Eda's childhood friend/Ex"? The only other things about Raine I can really think of are that their a bard and a Coven Head rebelling against the EC, but that's...kind of it. And these two traits aren't as prominent as their relationship with Eda.

Raine's whole character feels like it's solely defined by Eda. The character they interact the most with is Eda, the character they spend the most screentime with is Eda, and the biggest and most prominent trait is their relationship with Eda. And Eda's awesome, she's one of my favorite characters in the show, but when a character is developed beyond their relationship with another character, that's kind of a problem.

It never feels like the show really develops Raine beyond "Eda's childhood friend/Ex", they do not have many major characters aside from that and the few that they do have are overshadowed by this one trait. The entire concept of Raine's character IS defined by Eda. I'll admit, Raine is a cool idea for a character, but the show really develops them beyond that idea and it ends up being very mediocre in execution.

Again, there's nothing wrong with making a character's relationship to another character a core aspect of them, again Amity is an example of how to do that right, but you need to develop a character and give them more traits beyond just their relationship to another character. Otherwise, you end up with that character becoming solely defined by that other character, and that simply isn't good writing to me. Again, I know these problems were probably caused by the shortening, but they are still major issues that I feel need to be pointed out. Besides, the shortening didn't stop Season 2B and Season 3 from being amazing anyway.

Again, I know that Raine's just a side character, but considering that their the side characters with the most plot importance compared to others, I feel like It isn't unreasonable to expect the show to develop them well.

3. Conclusion

So uh, that's why I don't really care for Raine as a character. If you like Raine, good for you, but I just don't really find them that good of a character. I know this is kind of a hot take (which is why I am very scared of posting this) so uh if everything I just said is objectively wrong then uhhhh please tell me lmao. And that's it so...

...bye

#raine whispers #toh #raine toh #the owl house #toh critical #toh criticism #the owl house critical #the owl house criticism #toh analysis #character analysis

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unfried-mouth-wheat · 11 months

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Belos as a character is so infuriating because the writing team really stuck gold when it came to a villain that mirrored the core ideals and themes of the show, and then did literally nothing with it aside from "Oh no i helped the bad guy so im just as bad as the bad guy :(" "No ur not" "Okay :)" LIKE?????????

#the owl house #emperor belos #the owl house critical #the owl house criticism #i literally go insane

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weaselbeaselpants · 6 months

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kind of related but not- I'm genuinely sorry to be posting so much or about Lily Orchard, guys. Prior to Courtney coming on and telling us her story I was mostly just taken aback and angry with Lily as "one of those critic types" in my circle of vision.

It sucks -and yeah I know other critics don't want to hear this+Lily will use this fact as an excuse to discredit ppl's complaints abt her. but I think a lot of us were initially exposed to Lily because they knew of andor were fans of her cartoon criticism content. In my case I knew Lily from her days of Bronydom and have watched her make more and more meanMEAN material even w it's not about internal fandom dramacallouts. Back in those days and up to last year I could say of Lilly the same thing I'd say for a lot of people who annoy me online: I think she's a bully. Which is still bad, it's just not 'criminal', inherent. Comparing her to Rebecca Sugar, Lindsay Ellis, Contrapoints or VivziePop would be stupid as she really doesn't have even half the portfolio or wherewithall as any of those people -or even Zena and Poppy, not that they're angels. Lily was/is annoying because she'd use other people's genuine concerns and talking points. There's a certain takenupbyaltlight-term that I begrudginly would love to use for Lily that REALLY hits the nail on the head with her, be it as a fan, a critic or an activist. But I won't use it. Not because it's untrue, but because it's used by the same people who write her kiwifarm pages and misgender her and clearly couldn't give a crap about her if she didn't make them "lol"

But then, I actually looked at some of Britt's receipts and skimmed bits and pieces of what remains of Stockholm (I think you all already know this but @britts-galaxy-brain the links are missing now). For years, I'd known and listened to others honestly harp on Lily as some kind of counter-initiative for her going after their fav foalcon people. I assumed it was more of the same. It's not. Lily 100% wrote cp and is trying to hide it. No not fiction abt young adults that delves into erotic and sexisms; not stuff with aged-up child characters being big boobied of themselves thru the gaze or r34 artists. She wrote cp.

Essense of Thought's and that one hour long video talking about Stockholm were the first real horrifying revelation. Then I read through Brittney's saved messages from Lily and 'Tara'. Then I saw Patch's video.

THEN, Courtney came out and told everyone on here and her server everything we needed to know. I don't abide by everything Courtney says, especially about her abusers but I mean they're her abusers and please stop asking her to like the children who're valued more than her in the lives of her abusers, or at least maybe vent openly not to Courtney directly about your fear for those kids Cameron has. Yeah, I'm also concerned but idk there's got to be a better way to handle this. Anyway, as previously stated, I believe Courtney, Britt, and Patch. There's no way that those people have faked that stuff. I've heard kind of stretched explanations being true, but there's no way Stockholm was "edited by pedos" like Lily's saying it was I know I'm missing a few folks in there but I believe a lot of people have been genuinely victimized by LO and aren't just acting out of transphobia, bigotry.

Of what I can attest based on what I've seen, I KNOW that Lily Orchard wrote 'fluffy' foalcon and is saying she didn't, and also that the woman hates the word "queer".

Of what has been shown to me, I fully BELIEVE Lily Orchard is an abusive, sockpuppeting predator. Not only that, she's hiding behind other predator's existence to lie to her audience of other abused people to convince both them and herself that she couldn't possibly be a predator.

In 2013, what was 10 years from now, there was a controversy in the MLP fandom where a minor rose a (not undeserved) stink abt the askblog Princess Molestia and how it was making light of r*pe, intentionally or not. To counter this, a bunch of mouthbreathing bronies took it upon themselves to prove they weren't creeps by threatening the underrage sa victim, making r*pe porn of her while other mouthbreathers basically said "yeah put she's [the minor] annoying so it's the same kind of evil we're doing, really". Centrists.

Why this matters to me is (CW. CW. CW) you can find a post from Tara Callie, who was almost certainly one of Lily's alts at the time, admitting she found the r*pe art of Pinkiepony "hot", all the while Lily herself was publicly denouncing Pinkie's treatment by the fandom.

Lily Orchard is an awful human being. She does not have intrusive thoughts or fears of acting on those intrusive thoughts sometimes, like me and other people do. She has sexual and violent urges that she hides enough form the public to not make her followers suspect anything. She's twofaced and takes out her probable self-hate by attacking other predators. She's all deflection and lies. I can not believe a thing that vile woman says. Neither should you.

The biggest means of fighting her I think we all can do of is refusing to use her critical tag w we talk about her. Spam her "own tag". Enough hiding and denying who this terrible bigoted abusive woman really is.

Because really, her thoughts on glubshitto or whoever from Owl House are HARDLY the worst of it. Not even.

#lily orchard #lilly orchard #the owl house critical #the owl house criticism #critical fandom #steven universe critical #spop critical #my little pony friendship is magic #friendship is magic critical #Whelp at least it looks like the Helluvaverse fandom is safe from her #for now

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shuriflurry · 8 months

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Ok here we go: I hate Vee.

Backstory: I was really really REALLY invested in the imposter Luz subplot we were getting hints for. Every time we were shown a snippet of what was going on in the human world I was super intrigued and also excited. The way it was framed as being slightly menacing and nefarious was *chefs kiss*. And the knowledge that there's something living with Luz's mother and Luz doesn't know but WE KNOW was really hitting all the right notes for me.

And then it turned out to just be some funny little guy. I'm so, so, so tired of funny little guys in this show but that's not the point.

First of all: in the time span of approximately 2 minutes Luz goes from learning there is something living her life, in her home, with her mother, to acting justifiably angry at the imposter, to being completely fine with it. I understand that Luz is 'the hero' and is 'good', but the emotional whiplash is jarring to say the least, especially with how much hype the writers put into making Vee seem like a potential threat. But WHATEVER, we're trying to teach good behavior to the children so fine ok I'll accept that Luz is just a better person than I would be in this situation.

Which leads us to the bigger issue which is Vee themself. Because good lord, the amount of self-wallowing pity and victim mentality eminating from this pathetic creature is infuriating. What Vee did was and is objectively bad. They impersonated a person they had never met, claimed their family as their own, and then even started to go the lengths of clearing out Luz's belongings. And ok, fine, let's be fair and say that Vee did assume Luz was dead. That still doesn't justify that they were ok living an entire lie and leading on her mother. That doesn't justify that Vee, during this entire episode, only thought of themselves. That doesn't justify that Vee, never once, took accountability for being incredibly selfish and using Luz's family as collateral to get what they wanted.

And I GET IT, their life sucked before hand and they were basically a prisoner of war. I GET IT. But the past doesn't justify the behavior of the present, and the fact that the show completely handwaves away the questionable behavior of Vee and instead paints them as an 'uwu sad feel bad for me victim' really rubbed me the wrong way.

This is just another example of the show refusing to allow any of it's main cast to be 'bad' though, so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. But after the hype (I feel dirty even using that word but I can't think of a better one) of having an imposter in the human world, just to have it be a whimpering crybaby who is immune to criticism made me mad. It was like the culmination of everything that's annoyed me in this show coming together to destroy the one subplot I was most excited for.

Also, that our return to the human world and all of the interesting hints/references to Belos was instead sidetracked for VEE. Just kill me.

Final thoughts:

#personal #the owl house #the owl house critical #the owl house criticism #i did like the last scene with luz's mom though #i thought that was nicely done

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mdhwrites · 18 days

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Honestly I personally believe Sasha Waybright character arc was better written and engaging than Hunter and Amity’s arcs combined mostly because there was more agency in her arc and while the other two characters who go from enemies to allies to friends just didn’t engage me as much as Sasha’s.

I’m especially dissatisfied with Hunter and how his story while interesting wasn’t as cool as it could’ve been

So I've talked a lot about this in the past but the angle I'll take this time is simple: Sasha is more compelling as a villain to ally arc because the show let her be a villain.

That might sound simple but it's clearly something TOH itself struggled with. One could argue that ALL of the redemptions in TOH follow a pattern of one bad action followed by them being tenuously on the same side and then on the same side. Amity is out of character for her first episode and then Luz is actually at fault for Covention, even if Amity takes it too far. Then Amity is weirdly antagonistic during Hooty's Moving Hassle and then NEVER AGAIN. Three episodes into knowing her and she is now the person we are supposed to sympathize and want around and her biggest crime feels entirely out of character for the rest of her portrayal.

Hunter is similar. His first appearance is not Hunter. It's the Golden Guard who is WAY more fun a character than Hunter ever was and kind of a bastard. Then the mask is removed in his second real appearance (not counting the stinger in Escaping Expulsion) and he is someone to start sympathizing and working with. He is the sad but mad boy by his third major appearance and his second appearance makes him somewhat sympathetic, just like Covention did for Amity... Or For the Future does for The Collector despite lines like "I can't wait to play amongst the bones!" in Hollow Mind that feel, drumroll please, OUT OF CHARACTER TO THE REST OF HIS WRITING!

Lilith is the only to subvert this... Kind of. No, they actually go out of order but still the same essentially with her. Her first appearance makes her sympathetic and not properly a threat because she's still willing to play ball with Eda for a one on one competition, then she spends the second half of S1 just palling around in shenanigans she should not be allowing but is because... Fuck you. Then we get her one truly evil action in kidnapping Luz, coupled also with having been the one to curse Eda but that's also used to show she's a good person now so the kidnapping is the bigger deal here. Then... She's just a good guy afterwards.

This all makes for the most shallow, bullshit uses of this trope I think you can do while being allowed to claim you did it. After all, a key point to all of these redemptions aren't "Then they sided with the good guys," it's just "Then they're a good person." They don't bring who they were as a villain with them. The strengths that led to their villainy are just gone and they're hard to say what they were in the first place, what they add to the narrative in their redemption and joining of the main party because who were they before they joined. What are they actually fighting against as a person instead of just deciding not to be evil anymore or wanting the cookies that the light side offers?

It'd be like if after Sasha was redeemed, she was as bad as Anne at being able to lead and use people. If the show went "To better erase all the crimes she's done, not only will we say Sasha only is a bad person because her father is Ultra Satan but also she now is entirely incompetent in what she was good at before." Amity loses her intelligence. Her plans are always the most straightforward after she starts getting a crush on Luz and she canonically started having her grades slip. Hunter is the most pathetic character in the main cast with I think zero wins in his belt besides his first appearance despite being the only one with combat training. Lilith is just... Sad in how much they reduce all she was for over forty years of her life to go "Now she's a silly nerd girl. Fuck ambition."

And, of course, their bad sides being blamed on mother, uncle, mother kind of for Lilith actually, just that the exposition for that comes after her redemption, and the Archivists and Belos for the Collector. They aren't bad people, they just were forced to spend time with the wrong people. Now that they're nerds and led by nerd Jesus, everything is okay.

There is a VEEERY real problem in TOH of Us vs. Them mentality that comes from these arcs that's really gross. Swap Luz to a white, male jock and suddenly the show becomes WAY MORE UNCOMFORTABLE!

Sasha dodges all of this because no one tries to excuse Sasha. Sasha never tries to pretend she's anyone other than who she is except for when she's explicitly putting on an act. This means everything compelling and good about her as a villain can cleanly transition to when she is a hero, even if it's hard to believe that which the show even calls out.

There is no Sasha's Angels in TOH. That might be a weird one to reference to you because it doesn't include much Sasha but it nails on the head what makes this trope so exciting. To Anne, Sasha letting others do the work while she gets to theoretically kick back looks like the same old Sasha that she now is suspicious of. Someone who is self serving and so Anne lashes out. However, it's not the case. Sasha's ability to manipulate always came from being able to read a person's weaknesses and strengths. She's a MUCH better manipulator than Belos in this way because she doesn't leverage on you or for you to already be siding with her. She can read you like a book and tear apart your pages until she plays with your spine. And as a hero, that's going to mean she's a great delegator. She's the sort who would go "Nah, we don't need to save them from what you see as certain doom. I know he can deal with it." And she's right. Not because of blind faith but because of the same skills that made her villainous.

Something that wouldn't hit nearly as hard, or feel reasonable on Anne's part, if we didn't get so many examples of this being who Sasha is. Of the fact that Sasha uses other people for her own means. And even now, you can claim the same... Except it's not for her means. It's for their needs.

It actually is part of what makes her becoming a therapist so pitch perfect. A good therapist can call you out when you're trying to hide behind something to not get to the core of your problems. They can catch what is at the root of your issues even as you don't see it yourself. They also can see your value and use your strengths to help combat those problems after helping you identify them. It's actually pretty close to how she tried to get out of Toad Tower in her first appearance. Bring in someone, earn their trust, use their passions against their weaknesses and make them better. The only difference is that now she cares about making them better.

Amity, Hunter and Lilith could never have such a satisfying future because again: What are their strengths? Hell, post redemption, that statement stands true. You can call Amity good at magic I guess but Hunter and Lilith are pathetic people who kind of luck out in being useful at times and that's really it. These aren't people who have anything going for them. They're as good as goons with one of them being an elite in a one off episode as far as villain forces go and that's not very compelling for a redemption of this sort. Not unless you're really going to get into that and A: Lilith was one of the strongest mages on the Isles and studied her ass off so you'd think she'd mocked less for sucking at her job and being a fucking moron and B: they didn't even try for half a second with Hunter who I don't really know if they intended to make look as pathetic as he did skill wise.

So their futures are just random factoids introduced during the story. Does Amity being an inventor say anything about her redemption? No. In fact, it really sucks because Odalia would have LOVED her daughter to follow in her father's footsteps because that's the most profitable option for their company. Good job show. Hunter just takes up the job that connects him with the only thing we know is explicitly Caleb related, no conjecture needed, which sucks for a character who was supposed to be his own person. Then Lilith is... A historian. Because she likes that I guess. Does that have anything to do with her time as the coven head? No. Her ambitions? GOD NO. It's just a random choice that puts her in line with the inoffensively nerdy cast.

And before ANYONE says anything about the shortening, I want to say I've done a blog comparing the fact that Amity, in S2A (so before the shortening) has as many appearances as Sasha does in Sasha's entire redemption arc. You didn't need more time to do this better, the show needed to actually commit to its concepts. Actually needed to be willing to do its tropes rather than slapping it on for marketability and to make lazy analysts happy.

Because enemies to allies is not one of those tropes you can half ass. Not unless you want none of its power and boy, these are some weak character arcs. At least we've got Sasha.

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I have a public Discord for any and all who want to join!

A Twitter you can follow too

And a Kofi if you like what I do and want to help out with the fact that disability doesn’t pay much.

#amphibia #sasha waybright #the owl house criticism #toh critical #amity #Hunter #Lilith

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