It is so crazy that Kataang fans go on about how Zuko had the greatest redemption arc ever until someone brings up that they wanted him to get with Katara. Then they just ignore his redemption and character growth in order to say it would be toxic because of what Zuko was like in Season 1 when they were on different sides of the main conflict. I even saw someone really try to say that Zuko and Katara’s interactions after Katara forgave him were still toxic without providing proof aside from basically saying trust me bro. Another person tried to say their relationship would be bad because of how bad his relationship with Mai was bad, but Maiko was still better because they supposedly cared about each other. So Zuko has the greatest redemption arc ever even if he got with Katara or you just don’t find his redemption arc that genuine, you can’t say his redemption arc is great unless he gets with Katara because it isn’t all that genuine of an argument.

something something ah shit here we go again

Let me stop getting upset over these stupid an/ti zutara takes and work on ZK Month 2024 prompts.

Ugliest shit is when Zutaras potray Zuko as super soft with Katara and vitriolic with Aang.It's the other way around,you tenheadasses!!Both Katara and Aang are his younger siblings but Aang is his baby brother who he's a mother hen to while Katara and him are literally that one trope where two people who hate eachother become family and are still mean to eachother even after they start loving eachother.Source:I watched the show

@localmotel @1clown1 @coconutsaiyan @moonage-gaydream @damienspinkshirt @southasianpercy @the-beauty-and-the-rage

Am I the only one who’s kinda wishing for an Azula redemption arc in the Netflix adaptation (even though it’s most likely not gonna happen?)

Like, Zuko and Azula are both being put under stress by Ozai and being pitted against each other. It would be really powerful seeing them some how bond from this and eventually leave the fire nation together and fight along side each other.

(Or maybe I just don’t want a repeat of the series finale with Azula-)

"The show often focuses on how young Zuko is to get sympathy for him."

Fine. Zuko's real age is mentioned only once when Iroh says: "In all the sixteen years of your life, this is your stupidest act, Prince Zuko!" is definitely an empathic context. In book 2 we learn that he has been in exile for 3 years, not a word about his age. After conducting brief mathematical calculations, we can come to the conclusion that: 16-3=13. Great. Was it mentioned in the show? Mm, no. To be fair, Zuko mentions this when confronting Ozai in "Day of the Black Sun". But to hear from people pritenzii on this score... It's disgusting. Zuko realizes for the first time that it's not his fault that his father burned his face. Simply... The victim understands that she is not to blame for what happened to her, and declares it, but it should sound disgusting. Are you all right? In your opinion, should Zuko not have understood this, or does he not deserve sympathy on this score? Oh, of course, this moment makes us sympathize with the terrible evil colonizer Zuko! They tell us his tearful story, the whole plot! How could I forget? To be honest, I have nothing to say about this. Or rather, a lot of things, but most of them will be obscene. People have either read a lot of fan fiction, or they have problems with their heads. Besides, over the past few years, I've hardly seen people pay so much attention to Zuko's sadness. On the contrary, I notice it in large quantities in another character (a sideways glance in the direction of Azula Stans). Either way, it was disgusting. Really, people make me wonder if I've watched another Atla?

Funny how people keep bringing up Zuko's misdeeds as if he didn't fight to make amends. As if the narrative of the show itself didn't hold him accountable. Meanwhile, nothing that bald little annoyance does wrong is treated with any sort of gravity, even when the person he wrongs most was allegedly his friend (Although, let's be real, Aang never saw Katara as a friend. Just a not-his-girlfriend-yet).

Had the show treated him like someone who was fallible, and had him in a place where he needed to truly make amends for the things he did to move forward. Had they made him face a real consequence or show any empathy or acknowledge the pain of anyone but himself, then maybe there wouldn't be as much Aang salt as there is (and as it stands, it's really not that much), and maybe people would be as forgiving of him as they are of Zuko (you know, the guy who actually worked to be better?)

So azula is a sociopath and evil for *checks notes* killing aang but zuko has a good heart because he never actually kill aang

Of course, if we ignore the fact that he didn't kill aang because he's incompetent, not because he's a good person. Also, such a good heart, hiring an assassin to track down a 12 year old, getting mad when his sister didn't fall for her death and burning down a few villages

But azula is the evil one because *checks notes again* conquered Ba Sing Se without any blood being shed and because she *throws the notes away* did what she was told, same thing zuko was doing

But apparently one is sociopathic and the other is a little angel

The Lightning Scene, How Azula Targeted Katara (of All People), and the Doylist Reason Why That Matters

Mention Zuko's sacrifice for Katara in Sozin's Comet Part 3 as part of a pro-Zutara talking point, and invariably you'll get a Pavlovian response of:

"But Zuko would have taken the lightning for anyone."

(Not to be confused with the similar-sounding Pavlovan response, which is "Zuko's sacrifice ain't shit compared to a mouth-watering, strawberry-topped meringue dessert"*, which is actually the only valid counter-argument to how the lightning scene is a bona fide Zutara treasure, but I digress.)

Now, I've talked in depth about how the lightning scene is framed far more romantically than it had any right to be, regardless of how you might interpret the subject on paper; this is an argument which I still stand by 100%. That Zuko would have gotten barbecued for anyone, and that he was at the stage of his arc where his royal kebab-ness represented his final act of redemption, doesn't change the fact that the animators/soundtrack artists decided to pull out all the stops with making this scene hit romantic film tropes bingo by the time it played out on screen.

(I mean, we stan.)

There's also a deeper level to this conundrum, a layer which creeps up on you when you're standing in your kitchen at night, the fridge door open in front of you, your hungry, sleep-deprived brain trying to decide on what to grab for a midnight snack, and quite inexcusably you're struck with the question: Okay, Zuko may indeed have taken the lightning for just anyone, but would Azula have shot the lightning at just anyone?

But there's yet a deeper layer to this question, that I don't recall ever seeing anyone discuss (though if somebody has, mea culpa). And that is: would you have written Zuko taking the lightning for anyone else?

Or in other words, who Zuko would have taken the lightning for is the wrong question to be asking; the question we ought to be asking is who Zuko should have taken the lightning for, instead.

Get your pens out, your Doylist hats on, and turn to page 394. It's time to think like an author for a hot minute.

(If you don't know what I mean by Watsonian vs. Doylist analyses, and/or if you need a refresher course, go have a skim of the first section of this 'ere post and then scoot your ass back to this one.)

So. You're the author. You've written almost the entirety of an animated series (look at you!!) and now you're at the climax, which you've decided is going to be an epic, hero-villain showdown. Classic. Unlike previous battles between these two characters, your hero is going to have a significant advantage in this fight - partly due to his own development as a hero at the height of his strength and moral conviction, and partly because your villain has gone through a bit of a Britney Spears 2007 fiasco, and isn't quite at the top of her game here. If things keep going at this pace, your hero is going to win the fight fairly easily - actually, maybe even too easily. That's okay though, you're a talented writer and you know just what will raise the stakes and give the audience a well-timed "oh shit" moment: you're going to have the villain suddenly switch targets and aim for somebody else. The hero will be thrown off his groove, the villain will gain the upper hand, the turns will have indubitably tabled. Villains playing dirty is the number 1 rule in every villain handbook after all, and each of the last two times your hero's braved this sort of fight he's faced an opponent who ended up fighting dishonourably, so you've got a lovely Rule of Three perfectly lined up for the taking. Impeccable. The warm glow of triumph shines upon you, cherubs sing, your English teachers clap and shed tears of pride. (Except for that one teacher you had in year 8 who hated everybody, but she's a right bitch and we're not talking about her today.)

Now here's the thing: your hero is a hero. Maybe he wasn't always a hero, but he certainly is one now. If the villain goes after an innocent third party, there's basically no-one your hero wouldn't sacrifice himself for. He's a hero! Heroes do be like that, it's kind of their thing. The villain could shoot a bolt of lightning at Bildad the Shuhite, and the only thing that'd stop our boy Redeemed Paladin Bravesoul McGee from shielding his foxy ass is the fact that Bildad the Shuhite has the audacity to exist in a totally different show (disgusten.)

But. You're holding the writer's pen. Minus crossover shenanigans you don't have the licensing or time-travel technology to achieve, you have full control over how this scene plays out. You get to decide which character to target to deliver the greatest emotional impact, the juiciest angst, the most powerful cinematic suspense. You get to decide whose life you'll put at risk, to make this scene the most intense spine-chilling heart-stopper it can possibly be.

This is the climax we're talking about, after all - now is not the time to go easy on the drama.

So.

Do you make the villain target just anyone?

Or do you make the villain target someone the hero cares about?

Perhaps, someone he cares about... a lot?

Maybe even, someone he cares about... more than anybody else?

You are the author. You are the God of this universe. You get to choose.

What would deliver the strongest punch?

If you happen to make the inadvisable decision of browsing through these tropes on TV tropes, aside from wasting the rest of your afternoon (you're welcome), you'll find that the examples listed are littered with threatened and dead love interests, and, well, there's a reason for that. For better or worse, romantic love is often portrayed by authors, and perceived by audiences, as a "true" form of love (often even, "the" true form of love). Which is responsible for the other is a chicken/egg situation, one I'm not going to go into for this post - and while I'm certainly not here to defend this perspective as objectively good, I do think it's worth acknowledging that it not only exists but is culturally rather ubiquitous. (If you're playing the love interest in a story with a hero v. a villain, you might wanna watch your back, is what I'm saying.)

Regardless of whether the vibe you're aiming for is romantic or platonic however, one thing is for certain: if you want maximum oomph, the way to achieve that is by making the villain go after the player whose death would hit the hero the hardest.

And like I said, this doesn't have to be played romantically (although it so often is). There are platonic examples in those trope pages, though it's also important to note that many of the platonic ones do show up in stories where a love interest isn't depicted/available/there's a strong "bromance" element/the hero is low-key ace - and keep in mind too that going that route sometimes runs a related risk of falling into queer-bait territory *coughJohnLockcough*

That said, if there is a canon love-interest available, one who's confessed her love for the hero, one who has since been imprisoned by the villain, one who can easily be written as being at the villain's disposal, and who could quite conveniently be whipped out for a mid-battle surprise round - you might find you have some explaining to do if you choose to wield your authorly powers to have the villain go after... idk, some other sheila instead.

(The fact that this ends up taking the hero out of the fight, and the person he sacrifices himself for subsequently throws herself into the arena risking life and limb to defeat the villain and rescue her saviour, also means the most satisfying way this plays out, narratively speaking, is if both of these characters happen to be the most important person in each other's lives - at least, as of that moment, anyway - but I think this post has gone on long enough, lol)

This is, by and large, a rebuttal post more than anything else, but the tl;dr here is - regardless of whether you want to read the scene as shippy or not, to downplay Zuko's sacrifice for Katara specifically as "not that deep™" because "Zuko would have taken the lightning for anyone anyway", suggests either that a) nobody should be reading into the implications of Katara being chosen as the person nearest and dearest to Zuko, so that putting her life in jeopardy can deliver the most powerful impact possible for an audience you'd bloody well hope are on the edge of their seats during the climax of your story or b) the writers made the inexplicable decision of having the villain threaten the life of... literally who the fuck ever, and ultimately landed on someone who's actually not all that important to the hero in the grand scheme of things - which is a cardinal writing sin if I ever saw one (even disregarding the Choice to then season it with mood lighting and sad violin music, on top of it all), and altogether something I'd be legitimately pissed about if my Zuko-OTP ship paired him with Mai, Sokka, or just about anybody else 😂

Most importantly c) I'm hungry, and I want snacks.

*The Aussies in the fandom will get this one. Everyone else can suffer in united confusion.

I'm glad atla didn't come out today, because y'all would absolutely despise zuko's redemption arc and call it bad, problematic writing because it "excuses the actions of a colonizer" or some other dumb shit.

it's racist to make zuko learn from the mistakes of his ancestors.

it's TOXIC to suggest that people can change and become better than they used to be after hurting other people.

how dare the writers suggest that katara, a victim of colonization, forgive zuko, as if we can ever forgive colonizers or give them a chance to address and fix the wrongs of their ancestors.

how COULD the writers have the sole survivor of his people's genocide forgive the direct descendant of the man responsible?

absolutely disgusting.

atla is clearly pro war, pro colonization!

atla is garbage, don't watch it!! zuko is clearly a white man's self insert.

also all the Asian influence is racist against Asians because it's clearly inspired by Asia, my favorite culture.

cultural appropriation.

no, thank the gods that atla was released in 2005.

as it is now, no children's show could ever talk about the evils of colonization without liberals insisting it's fascist propaganda, and conservatives insisting it's communist propaganda.

ATLA Unpacked: Ty Lee's Potential

One of the many things we missed out on from ATLA Book 3 was a Ty Lee character arc. Of Azula's trio she's ultimately the least explored and most auxiliary, which is sad. The possibilities were certainly there: a girl who seems too good-natured for the ruthlessness of the Fire Nation, coerced into helping Azula, seemingly naive about what her nation is doing or perhaps too timid to voice her concerns. Gee, all that sure rings a bell doesn't it? So, here are some things that I think could have been done w/ Ty Lee given what we know about her. 1. Friendship with Zuko and eventual Redemption Arc Canon screwed this one up during "The Beach," but there's no reason it had to be that way. Ty Lee should have been the person Zuko warmed up to the most given that they're both more caring people than Mai and Azula. With Ty Lee and Zuko, you have two sheltered and privileged teenagers who don't quite fit the mold of what Fire Nation children are *supposed* to be. As a result, Zuko is banished and Ty Lee leaves her aristocratic home life behind. Zuko's banishment and journey across the world helps him realize that the Fire Nation's war is wrong. Ty Lee, who was part of a traveling Fire Nation circus and eventually traveled the Earth Kingdom with Azula, could have easily come to the same realization. We never even get her perspective on the war in canon! Just imagine Ty Lee and Zuko bonding over martial arts, theater, and collecting pretty sea shells. They bring out each other's best qualities and motivate each other's redemption. 2. Standing up to Azula This has been commented on before, but Mai being the one who defies Azula instead of Ty Lee during "The Boiling Rock" is not a satisfying emotional climax. Mai happily left her boring life behind in "Return to Omashu" as soon as Azula gave her an opportunity, and she openly defied Azula's orders with no fear of retribution at least once. What Azula represented for Mai wasn't fear. Azula was the metaphorical "devil" on Mai's shoulder, distracting her from her lack of emotional fulfillment with fun and thrills. The one who was genuinely afraid of Azula, and abandoned her passion out of that fear, was Ty Lee. Ty Lee standing up to Azula and emerging victorious is far more emotionally and narratively satisfying given their dynamic. It also gives Mai a more character appropriate choice to make in the situation. Which leads me to my third point 3. Mai and Ty Lee marsreds made a fantastic commentary I read years ago. I'll link it in the comments, but her point was that throwing Mai into an awkward and uninteresting relationship with Zuko took the focus away from her relationships with Azula and Ty Lee and made her character arc about a boy. It's a pretty damning commentary on the sexism that seeped into the way ATLA's female characters were written, and how that became the norm for the franchise by the time of the comics. Anyway, a hugely missed opportunity for Ty Lee and Mai was their relationship with each other. Even though I am pro MaiLee, I won't make this ship heavy. Ultimately the writing has to come first, but Mai and Ty Lee do have a fun and touching dynamic. Ty Lee is even more playful and affectionate with Mai than she usually is, and Mai shows genuine care and empathy for Ty Lee. When they reunite in Omashu, Mai asks Ty Lee what happened with her joining the circus. Then, during "The Beach," Mai is the only one who stands up for Ty Lee, telling Zuko to back off and figuring out the root of Ty Lee's desire for attention. We never see Mai this invested in someone else's feelings and well-being with anyone else. The character appropriate choice for Mai in "The Boiling Rock" wasn't betraying Azula for teen love. It was choosing between the friend who encouraged her better self (Ty Lee) or the friend who kept her from growing as a person (Azula).

Do you know anything about where i can find people talking about the fake zk interviews, or how "zutara was originally gonna be endgame" was fake news? conversions haha 😅😅

as it stands, some of the writers on the writing team (joshua hamilton and john o’bryan specifically) wanted zutara. they confirmed this on braving the elements, the atla podcast hosted by dante and janet. one of them mentioned that there was an original pilot that initially had a zutara endgame. i’ve yet to find any evidence of this, and the actual series bible posted on Reddit mentions no ships, so who knows if this was something legitimate or false.

the popular rumour is that aaron ehasz was adamantly pro-zutara and devised a whole season 4 in which they became endgame, in addition to an azula redemption arc. this rumour came from a fake interview from a zutara blog who claimed to be an intern working at nickelodeon. aaron ehasz on video confirmed that the interview was fake, and also stated that he did not personally ship anything in his writing because rooting for a particular ship would lead to contrived plot points. rather, he went with the “natural flow of things” by listening to his characters and their needs. bryan later echoed the same sentiments on the braving the elements podcast, that fandom could ship what they want but ultimately they would make their writing decisions based on the direction of the story and the characters’ wants and needs, whether those decisions ended up finalizing platonic or romantic relationships.

on top of that, aaron ehasz also:

said that the only thing he would change in atla was a composition shot of azula and the gaang in the chase in the same interview that he denied wanting zutara as endgame

loved mai and maiko (him and his ex wife first introduced maiko in zuko alone)

confirmed parallels between kataang and rayllum

expressed his interest in reading kataang-rayllum parallel meta (i can’t find the tweet, but it was an interaction regarding @raayllum’s meta).

requested, alongside mike dimartino, the tale of oma and shu to be created as a way to develop katara and aang’s romantic relationship in the cave of two lovers (as confirmed by the writer joshua hamilton himself)

How come I don't see anyone in the fandom mention how in the comics it's canon that Iroh hopes for Azula to find peace and healing? Be it the pro Azula and anti Azula crowd everyone specifically focuses on the "crazy need to go down" line and implications that Iroh hates her. Since that comic panel flies in the face of the idea that Iroh has a one track mind on her being unredeemable I feel like I should have seen it mentioned way more, especially since it can be used directly against the aforementioned "she's crazy" line from the show that anti redemption fans parrot a ton.

It's most likely because nothing comes out of it. He just says that and that's it. It's almost as if it was included to make Iroh look like the caring uncle that he wasn't to Azula during the show (something that both Aaron Ehasz and Iroh's VA said made no sense) and nothing more. We don't see Iroh going out of his way for Azula and lend her a helping hand like he did for Zuko during the show.

It's either that or people just forgot all about it since the majority of the fandom just doesn't care for the comics. And like I said, since absolutely nothing comes out of Iroh saying that, it's pretty forgettable.

I have never liked Mai's character and I think the reason I find her so unlikable is her complacency.

I have no problem with her boredom and teenage angst, it's the fact that she seems so disinterested in working with Azula/the Fire Nation but does any way that annoys me. In fact, she surrenders or gives up pretty quickly several times throughout the show. For example, she refuses to help Ty Lee chase after Katara and Sokka in the drill, and gives up immediately when Sokka and Toph confront her to get the Earth King's bear back. So why does she continuously align herself so closely with Azula?

Mai is never seen being threatened or intimidated like Ty Lee was to join Azula. In fact, she seems pretty enthusiastic about leaving Omashu. But I get that even if there wasn't a directly stated threat, it's clear that denying Azula is not an option for Fire Nation citizens. However, even if she was forced to fight in a war she clearly was not interested in, it doesn't make her a particularly sympathetic character because she offers no resistance. Ty Lee, at least, seems to be genuinely in awe of Azula until the moment when she sees Azula's willingness to attack (and probably kill) Mai for her betrayal. At least Ty Lee stands for something and her actions align with her beliefs throughout the show! Mai stands for nothing and fights in a war she doesn't care about, which in my mind, makes her a very morally weak character.

When she eventually betrays Azula and saves Zuko, I guess I'm supposed to start liking her, but it just doesn't hit right for me. I think that if it weren't for Zuko, she never would have rebelled against the Fire Nation at all-- It's not like she ever indicated any dislike for their methods or the war in general until then. This is especially why I dislike the pairing of Zuko and Mai. Zuko rebelled against the Fire Nation because of his morals and the realization that what they were doing was wrong. Mai rebels because her boyfriend is in trouble. Not the same thing!

Plus, after the war, Ty Lee joins the Kyoshi Warriors, who in addition to protecting their village and fighting the Fire Nation, are just general do-gooders (they spent a great deal of season 2 helping refugees in any way they could). This is Ty Lee's real redemption arc after her one act of rebellion; she has given everything up to serve the community as part of a dedicated group. But Mai just...continues being a Fire Nation aristocrat?? Except she's supposedly a good person now? And I'm supposed to think this makes up for all her pro-Fire Nation war efforts?

If I'm being fair, her attack on Boiling Rock was a very brave and selfless move. And she does mention her controlling and overbearing parents; it's possible there was some emotional neglect in her childhood. Maybe it's too much to expect every 16-year-old in the avatar world to have the courage to rebel against an entire nation. But in the end, none of this is enough for me to like her character.

The 'I have a better relathionship with the fandom's favorite bad boy than almost every other character but it's erased constantly' support group

Do you think Iroh is a hypocrite?

Point from: https://www.tumblr.com/innocentimouto/734337927505690624/rosafloera-i-didnt-feel-like-splitting-up-my

Do I think Iroh is a hypocrite for what?

OP doesn't say why they think Iroh is a hypocrite (and in general this person likes to make a hash of the series as a whole so I don't really care what they have to say).

But if we're discussing the topic of redemption, Iroh is actually repeatedly pro-redemption, which probably has a lot to do with how he himself sought redemption. So, no, he is not a hypocrite. He believed Jet could be redeemed and told him his desire to change himself was admirable, and even when Jet attacked him, he didn't condemn him, but only said he was "confused."

Why is Iroh a hypocrite, exactly? Because he didn't throw himself down and confess that he was a firebender when Jet attacked him, putting both himself and Zuko in danger?

Because, again, he tried to protect Zuko from Azula?

Even then, Iroh does actually express a desire to see Azula get peace in the comics once she is no longer a direct danger to anyone (and that belief, shared by Zuko and the gaang, actually allows Azula to put them and others in danger again, because manipulative people love to take advantage of other people's kindness.)

Are you seeing the pattern here?

Iroh has always been pro-redemption, but he's also someone who will stand up and say no to abuse and manipulation, and he is absolutely not a hypocrite for that.

Also, you are right and OP is wrong about redemption as a whole. Anyone can get redemption, but the idea that Azula can't be redeemed because "no one ever offered it to her" is an excuse. And the idea that it explicitly has to be offered is counter to what redemption actually is. Anyone has a chance at it, but that also means they need to put in the effort to take that chance. Nobody is obligated to offer redemption to someone who is violently attacking them, and insisting that it is so actually devalues the gaang's forgiveness of Zuko, because they didn't do it because they had to, and Zuko didn't change simply because they gave him the chance. He took that opportunity for himself and had to put in the effort to even convince them to give him a chance.

There's also a difference, I think, between redemption and help, especially with regards to Azula. And then there's the third thing where she needs to be stopped from violent tyranny by any means necessary, which supercedes any need for her to get redemption or help because at that point other people need to be protected from her. I'm tired of people trying to prioritize the needs of violent people over their victims. That's literally abuser rhetoric and Uncle Iroh is an important character in large part because he calls out that nonsense.