@kimberleyjean ok, you asked for this, its cursed and I'm sorry.

So first off I'm NOT going to try to explain what Supernatural is. Its a garbage fire, and I am unfortunate enough to be one of the feral, touch-starved gays to live in said garbage fire. Its the best show ever but all of its accidental, its the worst show ever in terms of anything that was done on purpose, etc etc. You're on tumblr you know the drill

Anyway, before GOs2's "Final Fifteen", the ONLY connections between GO and SPN were:

A demon in spn is named Crowley, in an homage to GO Crowley. They are alike, but they are NOT the same character and I don't think it can be argued that they're the same person in different forms (bc with demons that would be possible). They are however both Scottish, greasy and have a deep disrespect for authority. I do HAVE a theory/hc connecting the two Crowleys but that's another post for another day. Weirdly, SPN!Crowley (who I'm going to call Fergus from here on out, bc even though nobody in spn or the fandom calls him that, it is his canonical first name) has very little to do with anything I'm about to say. Just fyi, he exists.

Secondly, The Hillywood show did a Supernatural parody back in 2014-ish. I will link it below if you're curious, but again not much in this video is ACTUALLY RELEVANT to what I'm about to say (however, Fergus is there. He's the Scottish guy)

However, the specific arcs of Supernatural that SURROUND the season/topic this parody is centered on (Mark of Cain arc, ~s9-10) are where the coincidences get weird, and ok now I do have to talk about Supernatural a bit.

mmmfffff. Okay so the Metatron is a greasy, annoying, manipulative, power-hungry bastard who lies every time he speaks, wants full rule over Heaven and will control anyone and wreck anything he can to get there....

...and I'm talking about the version of the Metatron from Supernatural. LONG tldr, Dean (buzz cut, older brother, guy who's in love with an angel, the guy who says the news headlines in the Destiel meme) takes this thing/curse/whole other mess called the "Mark of Cain" to kill this kinda super-powerful arch-demon called Abaddon (more on her later), and blah blah blah Supernatural Happens For A Bit, and due to the Mark's curse making Dean act like a total psycho (and also, its implied, slowly turning him into a demon) they try to get help from the Metatron, who had been locked up after... well.

-when God was no longer contacting heaven, Metatron ran away from Heaven and hid on earth because he thought that the angels would use the Word of God (which the Metatron holds) "wrong" or something

-later, took advantage of strife & power vacuums in Heaven to manipulate Cas (angel, deeply autistic, the guy who says "I love you" in the destiel meme, in love with Dean) into doing a spell that CAUSED ALL OF THE ANGELS IN HEAVEN TO FALL, for no reason other than the Metatron is an actual pissbaby.

anyway, Metatron claims he can help Dean, that was a lie (shocking, I know), Metatron pulls some bs including basically stealing Cas' life-force (a second time. the first time was when he was ALREADY fucking w Cas as mentioned above) and runs off back to heaven... along with Gadreel, who he has manipulated/convinced to help him take power in Heaven.

who's Gadreel?

well. he's the angel who let the Serpent (or in this canon, just Lucifer) into the Garden of Eden, and he was cast into Hell to be tortured forever or something as punishment. However, after Metatron's earlier all-the-angels-falling scheme, Gadreel (for reasons I'm not too sure of tbh) took the name/identity of a VERY highly-regarded and powerful angel named Ezekiel, who died of his injuries during the fall

^this last part is a detail I try hard not to think about. this is because the names and roles are JUST similar enough to GO's Ineffable Husbands for the implications make me very, very sad.

Anyway, Gadreel had been around spn canon before, posing as Ezekiel, possessing Sam blah blah blah shit happened

Anyway this is a whole lot of words to say that the season/s of SPN that The Hillywood Show was parodying were the seasons where the Metatron was a main villain, and attempted/temporarily succeeded in taking power in Heaven BY MANIPULATING THE GUY WHO LET THE DEVIL INTO THE GARDEN OF EDEN

and then The Hillywood Show (who tbh I almost feel bad for lmao like BRUH) got signed to produce the parody/teaser/release date announcement for GOs2. Where the Metatron...

yeah.

yeahhhhhh

I would have LOVED to see the Hillywood Show team's live and immediate reaction to the Final Fifteen because I can't even imagine what must have been going through their heads.

ah yes. the FUCKING Metatron

oh also in spn, the Metatron (its complicated but basically)severely/fatally wounds Cas, and straight-up KILLS Dean, but Dean resurrects as a demon (for a few eps at least), meaning that Metatron DID technically try, and almost succeeded in, killing both members of an angel/demon gay couple, if only bc timing lined up so that Metatron was an antagonist in the arcs where Dean was turning into a demon.

so yeah

anyway I mentioned we'd get back to Abaddon so here's those major spoilers I mentioned. I'm fairly sure these are real spoilers and not theories, since my source is wikipedia

that's the whole article, there's not much else on her on wiki (though I should really do more research on Muriel). I think I heard Neil say somewhere that he created Muriel because "he wanted an angel character, from Heaven, who was 'just nice'" but idk if anything specific has ever been said about her name.

anyway that's why the Metatron gave Muriel that book "The Crow Road" in the Final 15, why he likes her so much, and why he's having her stay on earth

"The Crow Road" is a book about the nature of Death, and Metatron is, for lack of a better/less problematic word, grooming Muriel for the role of angel of Death in the apocalypse (Abaddon being a VERY prominent figure in revelations, for those who weren't aware)

...so on top of all the other Supernatural/Hillywood-Specific coincidences, sure, let's have Abaddon too.

uhhhhh

yeah

im back again with another lyric analysis <3 this edition is for Sastiel (my beloved).

State Of Grace by Taylor Swift (preferably the acoustic version)

All Sam has known for his whole life is touch and go. He has never been in one place for more than a few months at a time (other than his escape to Stanford).

He also has been more aware and open-minded than Dean his whole life; he has a changing mind when given new information, like how he learns to understand that the ‘monsters’ they fight aren’t always evil, and that he can empathize with them. He learned this far before Dean.

He has always loved whole and hard; his love always bleeds, he has been hurt so much through losing the people he held dearest. They fade away.

“You come around and the armor falls” <— is literally the Gadreel grace retraction scene. Cas telling Sam “The only person who has screwed up things more consistently than you, is me.” !! So delicate and intimate.

They have each other. Even when Dean is missing or gone, even when they feel like they have messed everything up, they have each other. They don’t let go, they can’t, they won’t. <3

“Just go to my room and turn on Netflix, you will figure it out” is such an important line to me (even though i couldn’t find the real quote). Sam feels comfortable enough with Cas to let him be in his room, his private space, alone. Cas feels comfortable enough in Sam’s room to take his beloved trench coat off. They trust each other; when they are together, everything is wiped clean.

THIS IS THEM !! ^^^

Cas was never a saint. He didn’t succeed as God. He didn’t succeed as an Angel of the Lord. He didn’t succeed in Dean’s eyes. (“Something always goes wrong, Dean”; “Why does that always seem to be you.”).

Sam loved a werewolf. Sam loved a demon. Sam loved a witch. In Dean’s eyes, Sam always loved in shades of wrong.

They learned to live with the pain, separately at first, but, they also learned to live with each other’s pain. Cas literally told Sam, “I was lost until I took your pain”.

According to Google, Mosaic is “an individual (especially an animal) composed of cells of two genetically different types”.

Sam and Cas are systematically different on a surface level, obviously, as angel and human, but Sam also has demon blood running through him. It’s part of him. Sam and Cas, on an inner, biological level, are opposites. They’re LITERALLY “Mosaic broken hearts”.

When they’re together they’re brave. Especially when Cas is looking for Sam, or protecting him.

- “Who are you, and where is Sam?”

- “You wont take Sam Winchester. I won't let you.”

- “You come near Sam Winchester, and I will kill you.”

But, also, their love is wild, they have such s chaotic energy as a duo. They are unhinged, but also mean well.

To me, grace is literally their entire theme. (I am a bitch for the grace drinking ‘purification’ idea, too.)

Cas believes Sam is a worthwhile fight: “Nothing is worth losing you”.

This last line, to me, is totally post-Jack era. They have a family together, a son, that they both would die for. They love each other. Sam sent so many texts with Cas left, he was so worried. When Cas showed back up in the bunker he looked at him like he could make his world continue spinning.

Lastly, the chorus:

Sam never thought Cas would come into his life. A real angel. An angel who would later become one of the most important people in his life.

Cas never expected Sam to be this important to him. He thought of Sam as the ‘boy with demon blood’, an abomination. But, Sam proved himself to be so much more than that.

Neither of them would ever be where they are without each other, and they will never be the same.

———————

Okay :3 that is all.

So the post about Dean fantasizing about locking Sam up in dungeon rgave me this particular idea... For reasons that would need a whole essay of its own (it is sitting on my drafts btw) i think Dean, while being obsessed and insane, is oftentimes a lot lot less sexual about Sam. At least for long time before they do it. So all these really possessive behaviors are still contained in very familial protective boxes .

Meanwhile i see Sam as opposite. As someone canonically less sexual, i think Sam is the one developing Dean boner from early days. But here's the thing. Depending on what au and what stage i love playing with the idea that Sam's own boner is mixed with some confusion and resentment and therefore need for distance and rebellion.

So after these little messes with Gadreel, or maybe Amelia and everything, Sam would wonder about how Dean would lock him next time. Maybe as some sort of a bitter joke in his head, maybe with bit of resentment, maybe says it just to hurt Dean a little, but then it becomes his own obsessive thought, it becomes his own dirty little secret he gets off of. He keeps wondering about the lengths Dean would go to keep him for himself. Would he put him in one of those lab tanks?? Would he chain him? Break his bones just to tend him later?? Cut off his limbs so he wouldn't run away? All the while stroking himself and moaning. (Also i just think how funny this would get. Dean's just gonna be so oblivious while Sam starts to get awkward and squirmy around him. Hell maybe it all gets worse post Gadreel so Sam has great excuse not to even look at him. Dean thinks it's"s just cuz be is mad at him and he is right about but Sam is also mad at himself for getting a boner over Dean's actions.

This is why Sam's insides all reek of shame and all the self hate and repression. This is why he needs to get away and he needs to pretend some ordinary level headed girl would make him happy.

supernatural s14e2 gods and monsters (w. brad buckner, eugenie ross-leming)

updated my post on 14x01 with my kind of derpy revelation:

!! omg lol i just reread my 13x23 with my whole “can’t kill michael now that he’s wearing dean” is that the whole reason we get pellegrino back as nick, so we can find out that archangel blades don’t kill the vessel?? 😂

the very fancy apron and a knife that reminded me of the linoleum knife in hannibal mizumono for a hot second 🥴 (his is a karambit, i think) he looks good, again. and without the flat cap he doesn't look so much like he's cosplaying the 20s.

CAS And, you need me to stay here and babysit Nick and Jack. SAM It’s not babysitting, Cas. CAS Only in the sense that they’re not infants, but they both have to be supervised. Jack is lost without his grace, Nick is…he’s just a mess. SAM Well, it-it’s not his fault. Cas, Nick was housing, you know. He-he deserves a shot at rebuilding his life. CAS And yet every time I look at him, all I can see is the supreme agent of evil.

sam thinkin (what with the presumed cage torture while wearing that face) if i can do it, you can give it the old college try too

NICK I just don’t know what kind of pain would make me allow Lucifer to possess me.

it's like therapy for cas too. but this is the part where you tell him how luci exploited your desire to fix the problem of amara (??) at any risk or whatever and let him possess you too

BOBBY I’ve been fighting a friggin’ apocalypse for 15 years, my, FBI might be a little rusty.

cute. i never quite connected with bobby but it is kind of nice to have jim beaver around (even if i think the whole reunion tour of the past couple seasons is kind of ridiculous). and appreciate the confirmation of the timeline, 15 years is a lot but also not a lot. did mary get the ice caps are melting speech too because she probably needed it more than those guys -_-

can i also take a moment to say how the longer it goes on, the more goofy castiel wearing an outdoor coat indoors at all times is to me? lol. and i've heard actors talk about how it can be tiring to always be in the same costume. years and years of a trench coat...

CAS Yes, I do - a little. At the time of the Great Fall, when angels were banished from heaven, I lost what I thought was everything. I had no grace, I had no wings. I felt hopeless and useless. JACK What did you have left? CAS Well, uh..well, I had Sam and Dean. But I had something else that was extremely helpful. I had myself. Just the basic me, as, uh…as Dean would say, without all the bells and whistles. You know, Sam and Dean, they weren’t born with their expertise. They’ve been at it since they were children. Failing, winning, developing over the years. Patience, persistence - those are skills too. The past, where you come from, that’s important, but it is not as important as the future and where you’re going.

cas is on a roll. therapize it up, my guy! and i kind of like this pointing out how sam and dean got to where they are

oh so now dean gets to have a moment in the mirror with michael like sam did with lucifer in 5x22 (glad it didn't last long)

DEAN (in mirror) GET…OUT. MICHAEL I don’t think so. DEAN You can’t. MICHAEL Oh, but I can. Because, see… I own you. So hang on, and enjoy the ride.

i guess archangels don't have to follow the rules of possession. i'm not sure it's even a rule? who knows. but i know at least specifically with gadreel there was the whole, if sam knows about him, he can eject him. oh right, no one could dump lucifer either, duh. lol

well that was genuinely startling and creepy, nick trying to snap castiel out of existence

those are some truly unfortunate monster teeth

NICK Castiel, you’re just a stone cold body snatcher. You’re no different than Lucifer.

again singing the praises of mark pellegrino, he totally sells this. bringing some of the creeping dread of lucifer into this character too

CAS You know, in all my thousands of years, what happened to Jimmy Novak and his family are my greatest regret.

i recall when they finally decided to have some moral quandary over the jimmy novak situation, it felt too little too late to me. and for a second i was like right, jimmy dead. jimmy's wife dead. what about claire... oh right! we know what claire (and her glorious hair) are up to, and not dead

MICHAEL I admire you. Eating on the run, surviving, despite being stalked by those venal humans, who think of you as nothing but vermin.

this is the most ridiculous explanation. just say you hate humans, lucifer 2.0

similar to how they finally addressed the trauma of cas taking jimmy away from his family in whatever, s10, jack visiting kelly's parents and addressing how she just disappeared and they don't even know she's dead (which is just heartbreaking as a parent, to consider.) the show, past the first couple seasons, rarely takes the time to follow that thread through. this was well done but it's hard for me not to see it as a play for emotion and give jack something human connection-y to do

two things. 1) there's a little hint of the like. cliche film noir jazzy saxophone or whatever in the score when michael is standing up saying the "why do you think i let you escape" line and i find it just. well. it's something. what era are we going for here exactly. i mean, matches her apartment vibe too but not with michael in his 20s-ish getup :p b) i'm glad jackles is laying off the funky speech cadence he had for michael in 14x01, it's a little different in spots but not So Much

(this is a christopher lennertz and philip white for music episode)

laughing at this framing. let us gaze upon the defunct telescope while they sit on the edges of the weird step things

JACK Cas, Michael has to be stopped. CAS I know, and he will be - after Dean is- JACK No, Dean doesn’t matter. You’re all so focused on trying to save Dean and I get it, I understand, but - if he can’t be saved, if it comes down to him or Michael - Michael has to be stopped. Caged, or killed- CAS And if that means that Dean dies too? JACK Then Dean dies. I know this Michael. I’ve seen what he’s done to an entire world, and so have you. If stopping that from happening here means that Dean has to die, then …. Do you think he’d want it any other way?

LOL what! wow. jack doesn't subscribe to the winchester let the world burn if it means i get to save my brother worldview. which, very reasonable. but i'm not sure why jack of all people is bringing this up to cas right now. sounds more like... something bobby should be saying? not like jack knows them all that much better than au bobby does

even if i think this nick plotline is unnecessary and silly, pellegrino is killin it. he's so good at being creepy!

objectively very pretty shot but i still laughed

do they have any sort of angel detection system? dial a friend (angel) to take a look at him?

nick going full darkside and bashing the neighbor's skull in was a choice.

trying to sum up my viewing experience of the later seasons, i'm gonna borrow from our friend will graham: "You delight. I tolerate." i'm trying not to be an asshole and complain all the time, i want to enjoy it when i can. but i find it pretty challenging.

Some of dean’s biggest crimes / worst decisions, words and action-wise,  tend to spawn from when he’s been blindsided and has no clue what tf is going on. Often he doesn’t have all the facts, he’ll be pitted and cornered, and comes to hasty conclusions esp when time is of the essence, acting as the decision-maker he’s had to become over the years, growing up. But then the problem is that he doesn’t realize that he doesn’t need to do that all the time. And that continuing to act that way can be very damaging to himself and those he cares about.

Some examples include soulless sam, the gadreel-possession arc, agreeing to the moc (despite NOT knowing what these vague ‘consequences’ are), his treatment of Jack in early s13 (literal widower just. reacting. to everything and trying/failing to wrap his head around that what they were building up to all during s12 was untrue, and unlearning that, and that Jack is just a kid, who is also an adult somehow, and capable of good!), Dean saying yes to Michael in s13 finale, and of course the divorce arc in late s14/ early s15.

Things happen, Dean didn’t have any actual planned involvement in the things that occurred, like they either occurred behind his back ,or he was cornered into making the best decision he could (whether or not it was ‘right’ or ‘wrong’):

1) Dean asking Death to save Sam’s soul from the cage and have it be returned to his brother, despite being told this could be extremely damaging to him. This due in response to him not knowing that Cas had half-assedly resurrected Sam in s6 without his soul, while Sam��s soul was still getting tortured in hell!!) (a whole other post to be made on that) 2) Gadreel offering to save Sam in 09x01, and Dean taking him up on it, remembering how messed up Sam was and how he didn’t think he deserved to continue to live in a world where he kept fucking up /disappointing his brother, etc. Giving Sam a chance to heal and wanting to tell him at every opportunity he could about the angel possession, but then getting blackmailed by Gadreel into staying quiet, else RIP Sam once again. 3) Dean getting manipulated by Crowley and Cain into agreeing to take on the moc despite not knowing anything about it because he always deals with consequences which he can deal with later, of course!! 4) Cas straight up getting killed in front of Dean’s eyes and him having Zero time to actually mourn properly without getting his world turned upside down by having a kid thrown in his lap, which up until a few episodes ago the plan for everyone had been to kill Jack! 5) Not seeing any other way other than to agree to let AU Michael possess him in order to save both Jack and Sam from Lucifer, resulting in new-brand “michael monsters” who are impervious to regular attacks and then of course Dean not being able to fend off Michael from within aka Michael would be left to roam free and take control of a second earth. 6) Sam and Rowena were off doing one thing in 15x03, Cas and Belphegor were down in Hell (they should NOT have been paired together. Jack was their kid and shouldn’t have been solely paired with any one of them ESP!! not Cas, considering his outright vocalization of the absolute heinousness of Belphegor possessing Jack’s corpse, he is an abomination, Cas can’t even look at him. absolute Dean crimes 100%) - while Dean was waiting by the rupture. The plan with Belphegor fails bc he was evil and a demon, duh, he had his own agenda. This causes Rowena and Sam to take on alternate measures, aka Rowena dies. They all come back together and Dean is again, blindsided. Wtf. -- The plan changed and now Rowena is dead?! That could have been avoidable , he wants to think. But he doesn’t know. He just wasn’t there. - And this is absolutely terrifying for his need to control his surroundings, he feels like if he had been there, if he had been able to be know what was going on, that there could have been a different outcome. And that’s where he’s wrong, because how can we ever know that?

He often says and does things that he feels deeply he knows isn’t right. But he doesn’t know what else is. And then Dean crimes ensue.

I love when you talk about Sam and Dean! Your thoughts on them are so interesting, and you really get the characters. I haven’t watched the season post 11 because I couldn’t take all the manufactured drama between the two boys, so I’m guessing I need to pick it up? You talking about them being settled and domestic and choosing each other over and over again is SO sweet. I’ve always been curious to see how their dynamic would change in later seasons, but I was worried there would be more manufactured drama. Like the writers kept making them fight and it felt so forced (can’t even think of what season I’m talking about right now..). Does that stop? Do you even know what I’m talking about? I can’t take the manufactured drama to make a more interesting show, I just want those babies to be happy and loving and catch bad guys together

Oh, thank you nonnie! That’s so kind of you to say <3 I know I'm not usually part of the tumblr meta crowd, so this makes me go all mushy inside ;)

Yeah, I think I know what you mean. Seasons 6-11 have their good stuff, but the soulless split, the Amy thing, the Gadreel thing, the Amelia thing, the darkness thing, the MoC thing, there’s just lots of drama and conflict. That definitely dies down later. Which I guess makes things better, but I am personally not a big fan of the later seasons, despite brother domesticity. (For reference, I love seasons one to five, I do enjoy six and seven, I find the Amelia thing atrocious, but I like the back half of season eight. Nine and ten are ups and down and mostly wasted potential. Eleven is both better and worse. I think it has many good motw and some outstanding brother eps like Red Meat and Safe House, but I absolutely loathe that they brought Lucifer back for many reasons and I’m not a fan of how they did the Darkness. Season twelve could have been good, but too many things rubbed me the wrong way. I really dislike thirteen and fourteen. Fifteen is probably the worst, Carry On excluded, even though I think is isn’t a good episode as a whole, it just has outstanding scenes.) For your question of whether you should pick it up: there are people who enjoy the later seasons for precisely the brother harmony reasons. I’m not one of them. For me the bad outweighs the good and I only rewatch very few episodes. I’ll put the rest under the cut because it’s basically late season negativity though I will try to point out things that I think worked.

Don’t get me wrong, I love the domestic moments, I love SamandDean being a unit and together and killing bad guys, but the bad myth arcs, the inconsistent characters, the endless angel mess, the endless regurgitation of Lucifer and the frankly lazy writing and incompetent show running make most of it unwatchable for me. Initially, I quit the show halfway through season 12, because a lot of the motw eps were just not great (a lot of the lazy writing included dumbing down Sam and Dean for danger and peril, when you know they’ll survive anyway and you know they’re competent hunters, but the writers weren’t smart enough to pull off good suspenseful plots most of the time), and I found the return of Mary both utterly unnecessary and I also didn’t think her character was written well. I have very petty reasons for disliking some elements of the Men of Letters strongly, so yeah. And then I was staying with a friend when the wire fight finale aired and that sealed the deal for me for a while lol.

Eventually, when they announced the last season, I went back and forced myself through an entire rewatch and it was painful. I really don’t care at all about 13 and 14. I stopped giving any fucks about the angels after season 7 tbh. I really liked Cas and to some degree the angels until season 7, after that Cas’s characterization and powers were inconsistent and all over the place and no other angel stuck around long enough that you’d care about them and their power struggle (Hannah being the only exception). I know they needed to give J2 more time off and needed to give other characters more screen time, but that wasn’t it. I also didn’t care about the apocalypse hunters and the whole AU Michael thing. Never mind Lucifer. The addition of Jack could have been really good (though why they had to cast another white boy at that point in the show really is beyond me. No shade on Alex C, I think he did a decent job for the character and was downright delightful when possessed by a demon, but like, my dudes, at least try with the diversity when it comes to your most recurring regulars), and they actually could have used his struggle with his identity and his parentage and his relationship with Cas as a counterweight to Sam and Dean and give J2 time off. Instead the writers couldn’t decide whether Jack should be Cas or Sam and Dean’s foster son, and developed neither of these relationships as fully as they could have. There were great moments with all three of them and Jack, how their own history made them related to or raise the boy, but they couldn’t do it all in the time they had, so a more focused storytelling with Cas and Jack would have done wonders I think both for Cas as a character and a compelling side-plot to Sam and Dean’s adventures when J2 needed time off. Rowena and Charlie are bright spots in the later seasons, but Charlie was criminally killed off and Rowena could have gotten a little more screen time I think. 

What I like about the brothers and their conflict is that they both back each other’s plays, but also listen to each other. Their reunion after Dean’s Michael possession is beautiful, there are lovely brother bond moments (we see Poughkeepsie in action!), and there’s heart wrenching grief when Dean thinks Sam has died. Good stuff, really. There are occasionally decent motw eps, but overall to me 13 and 14 were a real chore, mostly because of the AU hunters I couldn’t really care about, but the show also didn’t make a good effort to make us care about them, and the whole Michael thing was just… like, Jensen tried, and later did a decent job, but also like…. why? Why the endless angel parade? There are good brother moments due to the whole Michael possession and there’s a mideason arc that has good moments and works, but again, I think there were better choices to move the plot forward than to recycle the angel idea over and over again. And of course Lucifer and Chuck and just… no. BuckLemming’s hard on for Mark P became increasingly unbearable and the return of Gabriel and the whole Princes of hell was also… idk. Cheap. Uninspired. Crowley’s reform of hell into a bureaucratic hellscape in season 6 was great, later on it became a boring corporate demon in suits kind of thing that lacked any kind of horror factor. I never was in the show for the horror aspect, but they watered down the concepts so much, took away any previous stakes and consequences that it all felt meaningless and inconsequential. Hell used to be scary. Going to hell used to be scary and this huge thing. Breaking out of hell used to be a huge thing that needed devil’s gates or heavenly armies. And later it’s just medieval-esque dungeons with stunt demons fifty to fifty-six standing around and everyone coming and going as they please. Hell turned into a joke, honestly and since it was seen so often in the later seasons it really grated on me.

Season 15 is an absolute dumpster fire with only very few good moments. Cannot recommend. Like they had one job of wrapping up the show, instead they managed to put out some of the most cringey visuals (ghosts running in daylight. Ghosts. Running. In Daylight. Running! In daylight!), ruin OG evil guys (see season one ghosts running in daylight), ruin canon in staggering uncaring ways, bring back other old characters with no real impact, have “fun episodes” that aren’t really funny. There are fun moments, like the fancy!chesters, and of course the three different AU glimpses with Samifer, BoyKing!Sam and demon!Dean, but you can just watch those snippets on youtube. And then they wrap up the big bad of the last few seasons without Sam and Dean actually doing much to contribute to that and only manage to go out on a high because covid impacted the filming of the last ep and Dabb’s kind of mediocre and weirdly paced script with an unfinished case that leaves more questions than closure is only saved by Jared and Jensen putting everything they had into the barn scene, the montages and the bridge scene, which are absolute shining beacons of two actors caring about their characters and saving the legacy of a show in the process. Like, no matter what happened post spn, they gave their all for Carry On, put so much thought in the dialogue, the costumes and the accessories, and they made it their own in a way that made it work. And I will be forever grateful for that.

I would apologize for this dump of negativity, but you asked 😅

So, I guess, if you want, you can do a selective rewatch and get the highlights and avoid the pitfalls? It’s what I do nowadays when I rewatch. I watch 1-5 mostly completely, and then every season, the number of eps I watch decreases. So I personally cannot recommend watching it all even though I know opinions differ wildly and you might miss out on cute brother moments if you skip some of the worse eps. I guess the development of the domesticity, of the security in each other is also something you miss out on if you only rewatch electively. So I guess if you can stomach the rest of it, it might be worth it. There are some people here on tumblr who draw out excellent meta of the later seasons and write excellent fic about it. I can’t remember specifics, but zmediaoutlet has really good thoughts on late season Sam and Dean. So if you want the brothers, try it, I think you’ll realize quickly if you can stomach the quality of the eps. Hope that helps 💜

Hey! So, I found your blog recently and I'm loving it already. The only blog I've seen with appropriate explanation for the whole Gadreel situation from Dean's side. I totally agree with you on that one. Dean saw Sam's desire to get out and have a life over and over again from the very start of the season 8. After Dean's disappearance, Sam got out, had a girlfriend, had a dog, had an apartment, even met said gf's dad. I won't blame Sam for not looking for Dean. Everyone have their own ways of dealing with grief and Sam chose his own way. Not judging him there even though I was hurt(as much as Dean) after knowing that Sam didn't even look for Dean. But I accepted it, understood and moved on. So did Dean. He was obviously hurt but understood. He was totally fine with it after a certain period. He wanted Sam to get out of this life too. He mentioned it in the same season. Sam living with his wife, kids and grandkids was his happy ending and he meant it. Seeing Sam's desire to live over and over again in the same season how's he supposed to let him die? Of course, he shouldn't have let an angel possess him but what else option did he have to save Sam? Yes, Dean shouldn't have let an angel possess Sam. Yes, Sam would never let any angel possess him. But, Dean KNOWS this. He still did it because it saved Sam and he's never going to apologise for saving Sam. And Sam's speech about he wouldn't do the same for Dean? That's bullshit. Even Sam admitted he lied. Maybe Sam wouldn't have let an angel possess Dean. I'm not so sure. Because he did let the whole world literally end by releasing the darkness. Idk which is more moral, angel possession or literal apocalypse. Now, people can argue that Sam didn't know that beforehand when he attempted to remove the mark of Cain but after he knew, he said he would do it again in a heartbeat if it meant saving Dean. Who is the more messed up one in this relationship? Jesus! And people still argue who's the more moral one. People, get over it. Sam and Dean Winchester are selfish when it comes to each other. They have the most tangled up unhealthy relationship with each other. They deserve each other in their own messed up way. Don't come arguing about how Dean was always wrong when he saved Sam without his consent. Sam did the exact same thing over and over again starting with Faith in season one. And also the show always mentioned that Dean saves Sam not for Sam but himself. Because he can't live alone, he wants Sam by his side all the time and that's why he saved him. That's just fundamentally wrong. Dean saved Sam for Sam. It is true that Dean can't live without Sam but he doesn't save Sam for that. How is selling one's soul to hell knowing the consequences (that is an eternity of torture) for the other one to be alive considered selfish? He's gonna go to Hell for god's sake. He's not gonna have Sam there. He's gonna be alone there. Hell's pretty lonely if u exclude all the demons torturing you. He didn't bring back Sam to live with him. He sold his soul to bring back Sam. The same thing happens in Red Meat. He bargained with Billie to let Sam live in exchange for himself and Billie says he's selfish and doing it for himself because he can't live without Sam. Again, my brother in Christ, he's not asking to live with Sam, he's asking to die and go to the Empty in exchange for Sam's life. He's very much gonna be without Sam when he dies and Sam lives. After mentioning this particular thing in the show over and over again, even Dean starts to believe it I guess. I just want you to make a post about this particular thing. Why is everyone in the show mentioning that Dean dying for Sam is because he can't be alone when it's very clear that Dean's gonna be alone after his death too?

hi! thanks for ask here & your patience in my getting back to it; you had a lot of thoughts & I had a lot thoughts in return :)

first, thanks for the validation on my Gadreel posts! can understand why Dean girls often want to stay away from it altogether because it is such a controversial storyline, on top of being badly written in many ways, but it’s been gratifying to work through it from both Dean and Sam’s POVs. I am planning to continue thru the rest of s9, it’s just a big project and there’s some unexpected and very interesting side tangents I’m finding.

I’m with you that Dean’s decision in 9x01 was so influenced by everything in s8, that he was upset that Sam got out of hunting & didn’t look for him but also damn, Sam got out of hunting and was able to make it work, something I think Dean felt was impossible for him. there’s also that Dean’s gut instinct was correct, the Trials were a suicide mission, and that if he’d fought with Sam harder in 8x14 as to who should take on the Trials, Sam wouldn’t have been in moral danger in 8x23 or 9x01. not that any of this excuses Dean’s actions in 9x01; even if it saved his life, not allowing Sam to make an informed choice about his bodily autonomy and possession was not okay.

I don’t agree with everything in it or how it frames certain things, but this meta post makes an interesting case that Sam might actually have agreed to possession if Dean had told him the truth while in his head. the bodily autonomy aspects of the Gadreel situation gets emphasized in fandom, and that’s certainly a part of why Sam is upset in the show, but there’s a particular focus with Sam’s anger and frustration on Dean lying & gaslighting him, not trusting him enough to give Sam all the information, and it’s a compelling read that these aspects were what hurt Sam the most.

from what I’ve watched of the Carver era, so s8 thru early s11, the emphasis is really on the dysfunction of Sam and Dean’s relationship, that they pull away from each other but can’t ever escape each other, that they hurt each but also that they save each other too. both Sam and Dean have done some horrible stuff to keep each other around: Sam and Dean’s jealousies with Benny and Amelia and the ultimatums they gave each other, Dean tricking Sam into the Gadreel possession, the somewhat sketchiness of Demon!Dean’s cure, and Sam unleashing the Darkness to save Dean from the Mark. seeing Sam as not a part of this dysfunction or “better” than Dean is just a bad interpretation, imo, because he’s very clearly willing to break the rules and go very far to save Dean. even going back as far as 1x12, as you point out, there’s Sam who doesn’t feel that guilty when they learned a dude had to die to save Dean’s life versus Dean who was pretty upset by it.

getting to your final intriguing question as to “why does the show keep framing it as Dean’s selfish / can’t live without Sam,” I wish I had a nice easy answer for you but I think there’s actually a lot going on here and it’s something I’m still chewing on, tbh. (more thoughts under the cut since this post is already so long!)

I’d agree with you that Dean’s motivation is often focused on saving Sam for Sam’s sake and so Sam can live, not just because Dean wants Sam to be with him. with Dean’s demon deal, he only got a year, so Dean thought Sam was going to be on his own after he died and he was okay with that. I also find the characterization of Dean’s demon deal as “selfish” to be kind of weird. I can see why Dean / Sam as characters would frame it that way, and I do think Dean knew his deal would hurt Sam, in that John’s deal for him & knowing someone he loved with being tortured in Hell in exchange for his life obviously hurt Dean. but saying someone who signed up for enteral hell torture was selfish because doing so hurt someone else minimizes the whole, you know, signing up for eternal hell torture aspect of the thing. and that’s the part that really haunts Sam, that Dean’s going to be die & go to Hell for his sake.

as the show goes on and imo the writing gets less complex, the framing of Dean’s desire to save Sam as about “not being able to live without him or let him go” is a simpler, easier to understand lens than the narrative really delving into Dean’s trauma and how it so obviously is influencing his actions & decisions. despite seeing the opposite opinion a lot in fandom, I think the show is more connected to Sam’s POV than Dean’s, and the “Dean’s selfish / saves Sam for himself” is pretty reflective of Sam’s POV of these situations. and I can totally understand why Sam would view it that way and it very much makes sense that Sam wouldn’t understand the complexities of Dean’s trauma, that's not a problem to me, but it is frustrating when the narrative seems to not be able to take a step back to view the whole picture.

on a larger narrative level, what also comes to mind is again one of my favorite meta essays. it’s a look at how the show frames Sam and Dean in late s4 and early s5, and one of its big arguments is that within the show, Dean represents The Family, while Sam, unlike Dean, can choose to leave The Family (even if he’ll inevitably return, since Sam&DeanTogether is the core of the show). Dean is then either praised or blamed for keeping The Family together. the show will flip between “yay, Dean saved Sam / kept The Family together” and “boo, Dean couldn’t let Sam go / kept The Family together” based on the needs of the plot, basically, like how the narrative goes from Dean ‘saving’ Sam in 8x23 by convincing him not to go through with the Trials and then to Dean ‘not being able to let Sam go’ in 9x01 and tricking him into possession. I haven’t actually seen “Red Meat” yet but it sounds like a similar thing could be happening there, where Dean’s being judged for holding onto Sam too tightly based on the needs of the plot / conflict for that ep. I guess the writers knew they had a dynamic that worked & decided they'd rather have it play out again and again instead of changing up the show's status quo and then potentially changing up Sam and Dean's relationship.

and phew, if you (or anybody) has read this far, I hope there was something interesting in all these ramblings. certainly fun for me to think about for a bit!

hi this is random but I found your blog through the tag "mast cell tumors" and I wanted to ask if Gadreel made a full recovery after surgery? I hope they're still with you. my partner's dog has been battling the tumors for 3+ months and has had 3 surgeries. unfortunately it started in his ear keeps traveling down his neck and we're just trying to keep him comfortable at this point bc its so aggressive. I also saw a recent post about your sister's cat and I just wanted to say you seem like a very sweet person and I wish you lots of good things and send you comfort. our animal friends are so precious and it's heartbreaking to lose them 🤍

I just saw this, probably because I have not been super active... my apologies!

Gadreel -knock on wood- made a full recovery after surgery. It's been more than a year without a tumor, and she now gets monthly shots for arthritis that unofficially include some checks for suspicious lumps while she's getting loved on by the vet. She's doing well right now. She had one when she was 7, then the whole mess of ten when she was 10, and I'd like it if we could go another few years without any kind of cancer situation. The vet says she's very healthy for her age, so that's good!

I'm so sorry about your partner's dog, truly. Cancer is terrible and I hope he's been able to have a good time in comfort care.

don't think too hard about the supernatural posting it's just the brainrot returning full force

here's the important tldr about my spn opinions: sastiel is my OTP, i also like wincest, certain wincestiel is enjoyable and i only enjoy destiel in very specific fanfics. i will pair sam with almost anyone and everyone except lucifer. s1-s5 were peak spn, s8-s9 are peak spn TO ME bc of the sheer amount of sam whump and Baby and Red Meat are two of the best eps in the show even tho they're in the mess that's s11. also Lucifer absolutely raped Sam in the cage.

also the Dean in my head is s1-s5 Dean bc after that he starts to be on thin ice with me for how he treats other people, especially Sam. I once had a months-long battle happen in my comments (between two anons) because someone wished my extinction for writing a s9-compliant fic that called Dean out for what he did to Sam with Gadreel.

anyway yea spn brainrot has returned so expect some spn whump here

Sam positivity posts should be about supporting Sam for not coddling Dean after the Gadreel thing even though Dean is moping around with his suicidal destructive face and Sam being a passive aggressive bitch.

Okay.

Its about how hot and what a mess he is in s4 because he wants to do drugs and have sex and is mad about how he can't be in his little bubble about it bcz Dean is there.

He's so kind he's so kind ugh. Its boring.

So I wrote a thing! A whole thing! If you want to read some mostly-angst about Sam’s feelings directly post-Gadreel, then maybe think about reading this? I’ve posted it below and on AO3.

-----

Sam is reeling after he has kicked Gadreel out. He never wants to lose time again - unfortunately, his body needs sleep. 

Post 9.10 "Road Trip"

----- The first night is easy. Tired as Sam is, the fear and pain and disorientation far outweigh any exhaustion, and despite promising Cas he’ll try to get some rest, he never considers actually going to sleep. The idea is absurd. So yes, on the first night it’s almost effortless to avoid sleep. 

The next day isn’t extremely hard, either - in terms of staying awake, that is. It’s plenty hard in other ways, of course, but a staple of Sam’s life has been the sleep deprivation, and he is well practiced in functioning on precious little. He can act awake well, and any slips are easily chalked up to his recovery from the events of the past… however long.

But Cas has now spent time being human, and so notices - where previously he might not have - that Sam needs sleep. And after his prompts have been shrugged off several times by Sam - “It’s only 10, it’s not that late...”, “Yes, Cas, after I finish this chapter…”, “Yeah, I’ll just have a bite to eat first…” - Cas all but leads Sam to his bedroom and tells him to sleep. Now. 

Sam acquiesces to this command, knowing Cas won’t let it rest if he does not, but again, he still has no intention of falling into unconsciousness. The idea of sleep is terrifying. He can’t. He’s well aware his body wants to - his eyes are sore and he has been frequently yawning for the past hour - but he will not give in. Not today. 

He picks up another book from his own shelves - the one he had been reading in the library had been left behind when Cas had shepherded him to his room - and settles down in his chair to read. Okay, he might be needing to reread each sentence to take in the meaning, and yes, he did just spend several minutes wondering if queue was really a word, but no, he won’t yield, this is still far better than-

He startles, jerking forward, bashing his abdomen against the desk. The book has fallen out of his hands, the noise waking him up from his split-second nap. 

Alright, he concedes. I’ll just take a short break.

He sets his phone timer for fifteen minutes. Then ten. Then five. Then ten again. He lies down and shuts his eyes, but immediately gets up again, pacing the room. He cannot do this. He sits down at the desk again, not bothering to pick up the book this time, tapping his fingers anxiously against the wood. He can barely think, he’s so tired. 

Go back to bed, set your timer. Lie down, just stay there. Wait. It’s only ten minutes. It’s fine, Sam. Just ten minutes.  The timer goes off, quicker than he had expected, and he resets it. This will work, this might actually work. He had changed into his pyjamas earlier to placate Cas, and is pleased with the comfort that they afford him now. His eyes close, his body relaxes, finally getting the rest it deserves. 

BEEP. A brief moment of panic checking where he is, that the time is right, but relief soon follows. He resets the timer. He falls back to sleep. 

BEEP. Frustration at being woken up. Relief that he has woken up. Resetting the alarm.

Sleep. BEEP. Repeat. Sleep. BEEP. Repeat. Unconventional, but effective. Sam sleeps. He sleeps well. 

And then suddenly Kevin is there, looking at him trustingly until his eyes burn out and he no longer can and Sam is painfully wrenched back into wakefulness, the name of the boy falling from his lips as his eyes fly open. He scrambles for his phone. 

4:32

It’s 4:32. It should be 2:15. He is certain he’d last restarted his alarm at 2:05. He had been checking each time, paying close attention because he needs to know. 

Oh God, 4:32. That’s two whole hours. Fuck. Anything could have happened in two hours. He can’t -- He needs --

Cas. Shit.

In a blind panic he races for the door, turning into the corridor at high speed, his hunter reflexes being the only thing that stops him from hurtling straight into the man he wanted to find. 

“Sam?” Cas’ voice is laced with concern, his eyebrows furrowed as he looks at Sam. But, importantly, he’s still here, still alive, nothing has happened to him. 

“I just…” Sam trails off. Now that he knows Cas is alright, the need to see him has completely changed into a desire to get away, be anywhere else. Cas’s penetrating gaze and worry is not what Sam wants right now. “Toilet,” he finishes lamely, and sidesteps Cas to head to the bunker’s restrooms. 

“Sam, I know you aren’t okay.” Castiel’s deep voice follows Sam down the corridor as surely as the angel does himself. Sam ducks into a cubicle and locks the door, hoping Cas will get the hint. 

“Sam?”

A deep breath. Closed eyes. He pinches the bridge of his nose. 

“I’m fine.”

He can almost feel Cas’s skepticism about that statement. “I highly doubt that, Sam. Let me help.”

“I’ll be fine.”

“Sam, I sensed you distress from-” “I don’t WANT you here, Cas!” Even as he says it, he hates himself a little bit more. Cas is just being kind, far more of a good friend than Sam deserves, but right now Sam just can’t stand it. “Let me shit in peace, please,” he adds for good measure.

Footsteps, and Cas’s presence disappears. When Sam makes his way back to his room, he does not see Cas. He’ll apologize tomorrow.

4:44. Three fours. Huh, Good job it isn’t three sixes right? But you can’t get three sixes on a clock, Sam. Unless you count in military.. miltry.. mil-i-ta-ry time? No, don’t be stupid. That only goes up to twenty-two - no, wait, twenty-four? But does it ever reach twenty-four… Oh, crap, I really, really need to sleep. 

4:45. Only one more hour until. Until what? He was going to say until he can get up, or at least, pretend to get up, and go about yet another normal day, no longer needing to feign sleep. But it hits him now that he’s still going to be bone-tired.

He wonders at how he has missed this great, big, obvious fact. He’s been so caught up in avoiding sleep right here, right now, every single minute, that he’s lost the bigger picture. How long can he carry this on for? The rest of tomorrow? Until Wednesday? But he’ll have to stop at some point. 

This is too big, too awful, for him to contemplate right now. No, right now he does not need to sleep. And he can continue doing that. Saying no. He’s good at saying no. He just needs to keep on, just keep on, Sam. 

The next hour goes as slowly as the last two had gone quickly. Eventually he judges it a suitable time to leave for the kitchen to get coffee. He’s thought of how to apologize to Cas, reworded it several times, a good distraction from anything else in his head. 

The kitchen is empty. He still stops every yawn, stifles every urge to rub his eyes. Cas will not get a chance to send him back to bed. The coffee helps, a little, and the second one even more. Cas walks in as he is sipping his third. Sam can’t read his expression. He instinctively lowers his eyes, looks away from Cas, then realises this could be seen as rude, and looks up again. He doesn’t want to hurt Cas more. 

“Hey, Cas.”

“Good morning Sam. Did you sleep?”

Sam notices that Cas missed off the “well” that usually accompanies the end of that question. Cas really knows him. 

“Yeah, thanks.” It isn’t exactly a lie. Sam is fairly certain he had fallen asleep for those two hours, and that has to count for something, right? He quickly plunges on, needing to put the apology out there as soon as possible, and ends up stumbling over his words in his haste. 

“Look, Cas, erm- I’m really sorry about pushing you off last night. I’m not really sure why I acted like that but yeah, it was- I shouldn’t have.” 

“Thank you, Sam,” Cas replies simply. “I was worried - and I was wondering if this morning you might be wanting me to leave properly, to give you your space.”

“What? No!” Sam stands up, needing to ensure Cas does not think that necessary. “No, that’s not at all what I… Well, I mean,” he bites his tongue and thinks about his words. “If you want to go, of course, I don’t want to be the thing that stops you, but no. I was just tired and, well, like you said, not okay last night. I want you to stay here, of course I do - that is, if you want to stay here?” He’s looking at Cas cautiously, hopefully, but is suddenly convinced that of course Cas will leave, everybody leaves.

“My wish is to stay here with you,” Cas says. Sam lets out an involuntary sigh of relief. 

“You look surprised,” Cas comments. Sam is taken aback at how easily Cas can read him. 

“Yeah, no - I… You don’t need to, like, look after me, or anything. And I was horrible to you last night.”

Cas frowns. “But I want to look after you, Sam Winchester. You’ve suffered a great deal and that needs to be put to rights. I am your friend. As for last night - I understand that you were tired; you have now apologised, and it is forgotten.”

Sam stares and nods his head, a little unsure how to react to Cas’s words. “Thank you,” he manages to say, quietly, and Cas’s gentle smile suggests that he might be aware of everything else Sam means beyond the two words. 

Cas walks slowly towards Sam, raising his arms somewhat awkwardly. “If you would like,” he says, “the hug we shared yesterday was rather comforting, and I would like to give you that again.” 

Unbidden, Sam’s mind snaps back to their first meeting. “The boy with the demon blood,” Cas had called him, then. He marvels at how far Cas has fallen, to be here, now, with him, but selfishly he closes the gap, and allows himself to be hugged. It’s the best he’s felt in a long while. 

-------

A second part may happen but probably not. Subscribe over on AO3 if you’re feeling lucky :P

sam and victim blaming

inspired by this post, because sam getting victim blamed for one reason or another has been a consistent pattern since s1 and I wanted to make a comprehensive list of all the examples I can think of. if you can think of other examples, please let me know

dean blaming him for john's abuse "maybe he had to raise his voice a few times, but you were out of line" (1x08)

john making excuses for the way he treats him and blaming it on him "walking away" (1x20)

john trying to split the blame for their failed relationship between both of them (2x01)

dean putting the blame for sam and john's failed relationship on sam (2x02)

dean telling sam that he has something evil inside him because he was force-fed demon blood as a six months old infant (4x04)

s5 is literally the Victim Blame Extravaganza with everyone and their mom blaming him for being taken advantage of and tricked into breaking the last seal and for ruby's manipulation

war being like "addiction makes you evil" and sam agreeing with him and saying that the problem isn't the demon blood or ruby, it's him (5x02)

one of the hunters who tried to force-feed him demon blood saying "come on, you know you want to it" and "there, was that really so bad?" (this scene is already plain awful and has extremely rapey vibes, so those lines just makes it even more disturbing) (5x03)

the wraith-nurse telling him that he's far too angry to be out there in the real world (5x11)

sam saying that he doesn't understand why he's angry at john, lilith and lucifer, even tho he has more than enough reasons to be angry at all three of them (5x11)

dean victim blaming and shaming him for wanting to escape an abusive environment and because his heaven didn't include memories of his horrible home life (5x16)

brady blaming him for being manipulated by azazel's minions and ruby (5x20)

dean getting mad at him because of his hallucinations (7x02)

dean blaming sam's mental illness for him lying about amy's murder and for almost getting them killed (7x07)

sam apologizing for being mad about amy's murder (7x07)

hallucifer saying that he can't get rid of him because he let him in / wanted him (7x15)

dean saying that he wouldn't have manipulated him with the amelia text if sam just trusted him (8x10)

dean's list of sam's sins "ruby, killing lilith, letting lucifer out, losing your soul" (8x23)

sam getting blamed for the apocalypse for the 816482th time (9x02)

the aftermath of the gadreel possession aka the Victim Blame Extravaganza 2.0. I'm not even gonna list all the examples because there are literally too many to count, but mainly every single character telling him to get over it, dean demanding that he get over it without even offering an apology or acknowledging that what he did was wrong, dean getting mad at him for saying he wouldn't do the same thing to him, etc...

demon!dean's grossly victim blamey speech about how everything wrong in his life is sam's fault (10x03)

dean's whole speech while trying to convince him that he deserved to die to fix dean's own mess (10x23)

toni asking him if it was good for him after mind raping him via spell (12x02)

dean blaming sam for him lying about jack's death and saying that it's because he knew sam couldn't handle it (15x16)

I wanted to keep this list pertinent to instances that happened in the show without including fandom stuff, because otherwise the list would've been endless, but I have to include this one: people getting mad at sam for his speech in 8x23 and turning it into him emotionally manipulating dean and not wanting dean to have any friends, when he's literally suicidal as a result of dean spending a season guilt tripping him, putting him down and verbally and emotionally abusing him

no bc imagine the fucking ptsd n trauma the vessels must have. wtf. idk if the show ever touched on that. but as someone who's like, got ptsd holy shit it's hell. n they just discard them like nothing. so fucked up imo

(i haven't rewatched in ages im going off on my terrible memory & ur posts soz if i get smth wrong but fr the vessels shit's always fucked w me :| )

no this is totally in line with the show. how they treat vessels is so messed up. idk if/when you stopped watching but halfway through the show it just gets worse and worse and worse. they really will just kill vessels left and right without finding alternatives too. this is generally the line I draw where they're literally just serial killers, granted they start killing everything way more easily around the same time.

also I might talk about triggering concepts like loss of autonomy, abuse, noncon, and graphic violence below so tw especially if any of those touch on yours and all

as for how much they deal with the trauma of it... sometimes when the main characters do they might talk of it... I mean Dean had Gadreel possess Sam and tricked and gaslighted Sam into being possessed and it definitely damaged Sam, but even then it did NOT actually like deal with Sam's trauma

likewise for other times he was possessed, one of which he was forced to tie Jo up and threaten her as well as murder hunters to get his brother to kill him, and then Lucifer's was super personal and he had revealed and then forced to kill many people he knew growing up who were actually demons from school teachers to his prom date. also no doubt he'd use it to victim blame Sam for stuff he did in the cage, given the end of repo man, but that could be directly coming from Sam reacting in the cage too. in any case, angel possession consent obviously is not real considering it's often under duress, manipulation, and unretracktable.

and I think they talk about it with Michael Dean perhaps. oh also while Sam is possessed by Gadreel they ALSO stick needles in his brain, burn off his tattoo from his skin, and let Crowley possess him! so you know. the heros of the show are doing that to the other main character. think that says a lot. and no of course they don't actually care about Sam's trauma on most of it (granted imo it obviously makes Dean & Cas horribly in the wrong given the graphicness of it) it gets actual space in the show compared to people's bodies just being used by angels and demons while they're stuck and never even knowing anything about them.

in general vessels aren't given ANY second thought though. April Kelly and Rooney feel significant to the plot, and April's killed and Rooney just?? disappears and then Trump's president? he's Jack's biological father and Kelly Kline loves him (granted I get why she'd ALSO have trauma since he is as forced to sleep with her as Lucifer and she only consented thinking it would as him and also she is just fighting for her baby's life then dies. so this isn't calling her out at all but the narrative weight given on that arc). But they don't mention him even though there's tons of arcs around Jack & Lucifer.

They also literally have reverse exorcised to kill a demon, just killing a person who'd be saved otherwise. it is so rare that they even care. I mean, I think in some degree Sam wants to (like how he mentions how upsetting it is Vince Vincente is dead when Lucifer burns through his vessel, but that gets more personal to him as Lucifer probably only possessed Vince because of him AND wouldn't need new vessels if Sam said yes) but since Sam was also in the wrong in s4 when trying to save vessels I think he is just as desensitized (and is the one doing the reverse exorcism mentioned above). Dean also tries to kill Kevin's mother to kill Crowley once. it's just stuff like that constantly. we do see her as a bit traumatised by that's again cause she had more of a tie to a main character.

most of the time it's just. who even is this person. a corpse. traumatised for life. trapped in their own body. the narrative doesn't care.

#spn#that’s a really good point at the end about how only Dean is allowed to have ‘I’m the only one who can fix it’ syndrome#paris.txt

these were @afraidofurlcommitment's tags on this post. and like. yeah supernatural is kind of.

the thesis of supernatural, in the end, is (very unselfawarely) that whatever it is, only dean can fix it. like the whole world belongs to him and it is his duty and his right to control everything, to ensure that everyone is on the right path.

like dean is the ruler of a little kingdom, his family, but the whole world of supernatural is also an allegory for that little kingdom, and so he kind of rules the world also.

like, in the first linked post, i said this about cas' tendency to take things on himself:

he’s taking on that role - the role of guy singlehandedly fixing the world - out of necessity, because the other angels know him as the one who rebelled and the one who was resurrected, so they’ll follow him, and more importantly because there’s no one else who’s willing to do it. he doesn’t want this role, but he does take it on. and that’s inherently going to breed a sort of solipsistic self-absorbtion, whether that’s your natural inclination or not. and that’s something that carries over and becomes warped when cas becomes godstiel. it turns from the sort of forgivable narcissism of a “Somebody’s Got to Save This Country World From Certain Doom, And Let’s Face It, That Person Is Me” mindset* to feeling entitled to shape the world how he wills because the one is a twisted and aggrandized version of the other.

and the thing is that that's.... that's dean. dean is taking on the role of guy who singlehandedly has to fix the world, except every time, he's been rewarded. because he's always, in the universe of supernatural, right. he's even kind of gone godstiel a few times, feeling entitled to shape the world as he wills (the gadreel mess in season nine is a good example), but he's never seriously punished for it because his vision of how-the-world-should-be agrees with the show's.

supernatural s9e23 do you believe in miracles? (w. jeremy carver)

saw a post briefly that said they loved the gadreel plotline which made me realize i pretty much exclusively complain about this show while continuing to watch and go on about it at length. ultimately, it's because i love sam and dean. and i have a hard time with the plotlines that put a ton of conflict between them, which is like. 2/3 of the seasons at this point it feels like. and sometimes the stress feels earned (like say, dean's deal approaching, ruby, etc) and sometimes .... not so much.

like okay for example, as the recap spins up with carry on my wayward son. this song used to pretty much gut me because of how much emotional baggage there was by the end of the season and i'd usually end up crying my way through most of the last handful of episodes in a season. but the emotional intensity just fell off a cliff. it comes out sometimes between the two of them, but not nearly with the consistency of the earlier seasons. and like i've said before, there's just too much shit (plot) happening, it's teen wolf-esque

SAM Something is wrong with you, Dean. And until we figure out what, this is where you have to stay. DEAN And you two are gonna do what? Take on Metatron yourselves? That's smart. Oh, no, wait. No, you -- you lost your Angel army. And you now you're trying to lock up the one guy who has a shot at killing the son of a bitch! Hell of a plan, fellas!

as they lock dean in the dungeon thing, reminded of this

from s5e18 point of no return (link to my ep post)

DEAN Well, they’re right. Because either it’s a trap to get me there to make me say yes, or it’s not a trap and I’m gonna say yes anyway. And I will. I’ll do it. Fair warning. SAM No, you won’t. When push shoves, you’ll make the right call. DEAN You know, if tables were turned…I’d let you rot in here. Hell, I have let you rot in here. SAM Yeah, well…I guess I’m not that smart. DEAN I—I don’t get it. Sam, why are you doing this? SAM Because… you’re still my big brother.

different situation obviously since there's this external thing forcing dean to go darkside, but speaking of emotional intensity

sometimes they have people's eyelines so close to the camera i'm not sure but then lately sometimes it's just this which when it's unexpected it's my brain screeching DO NOT PERCEIVE ME

really good scene between dean and crowley here.

CROWLEY Cain was a demon. Your body's not strong enough to contain the blade's power. DEAN What if I got rid of it? CROWLEY You want to get rid of it?

the way he asked that was surprisingly not mocking. and i mean, if he's involved in dean becoming a demon, or just generally (i don't know how that goes down) - he has a vested interest in dean embracing this. and dean's such a mess it kinda seems like he might just latch on to what crowley is selling, since he's not just angry but vulnerable

SAM Who else would he summon? I mean, he and Crowley have been bromancing over the Blade ever since Dean got the mark.

you've seen romancing the stone, now bromancing the blade

SAM Yeah, I sort of got that. I just thought you might like to know that while you two have been playing, uh, odd couple, your real friends, like Cas, like the angel you stabbed, Gadreel --they're out there right now risking their asses to help you win this fight.

real friend, gadreel? okay. that seems like a stretch there, sammy. maybe ally would be a better word :p

DEAN You mean the angel that took you for a joy ride? The angel that slaughtered Kevin? That angel? SAM Who you let in the front door in the first place. You tricked me, Dean. And now I'm the one who wakes up in the middle of the night seeing my hands killing Kevin, not you. So, please, when you say you don't want to explain anything to me, don't. I get it. And I also get that Metatron has to go. And I know you're our best shot to do that.

i know sam is practical, but he must have quite the cargo hold for the baggage he's stowing

DEAN I'm gonna take my shot, for better or worse. SAM I know. DEAN No matter the consequences. SAM I know. But if this is it, we're gonna do it together.

going down swinging etc

DEAN Listen, Sammy, about, um, you know, the last couple of months... SAM I know. So, before we find something else to fight about...tell me...Are you ready to gut this bitch?

didn't last long

i don't particularly enjoy the weird cadence of gadreel's speech. i can imagine it was easier in a way to have something pretty stark so padalecki and gadreel's actor could noticeably be similar but. i'm real tired of it. oh, well. now he's dead anyway

METATRON Wow, that big blade and that... douchy tribal tat sure gave you some super juice.

gotta meet that dean bloody and beaten face quotient

METATRON Ah. So Gadreel bites the dust. And the Angel tablet -- arguably the most powerful instrument in the history of the universe -- is in pieces, and for what again? Oh, that's right -- to save Dean Winchester. That was your goal, right? I mean, you draped yourself in the flag of heaven, but ultimately, it was all about saving one human, right?

i mean, dean and humanity

i did not know he got stabbed

DEAN What happened with you being okay with this? SAM I lied.

appreciate that, and thank you jared (wiki):

Jared confirmed that Sam was lying in 9.13 The Purge when he said he wouldn't save Dean from dying, and so he changed a line in this episode from "I didn't know this was going to happen" to "I lied".

okay it's that mushy music again! but a woodwind or brass instead of piano. maybe that's what got me so confused, that it's been the horn in the past?? mushy piano in s9e11 and s8e15

i feel like a jerk but this didn't really hit the right emotional notes for me either, similar to the s8e23 handfasting in the church (tl;dr i watched it several times and despite being a wincest shipper i just didn't feel anything)

also.. did they need to reshoot this? the lighting is weird. either the lighting doesn't match the environment because of a reshoot or just poor lighting design choices

and i hate to say it, i've come to love sam a lot and i think padalecki is a better actor than i gave him credit for, but this doesn't feel like his usual more authentic distress :\

back here again

well that did get me a little. borrowing on dean over sam's dead body on the bed in s2e22 all hell breaks loose pt2

and following the thought through of sam being truly alone

did not anticipate the blade bringing him back as a demon, but i knew we got there somehow and that he and crowley were gonna go off on a jaunt

Hello there. I have a question (more like a thesis): What would have happened if Cas told the Truth anywhere between season 7 and 15? Do you think it would have had the same impact on Dean? Logically speaking Cas could have told him anytime.

Oh gosh, yes. I mean Dean’s reaction in season 15 is still the best it could have been really :P He was in the best place and most accepting of himself and he still had a BSOD for a moment and then Cas had to shove him away so he could go die... (Assuming you take the on screen boring presentation of what happened as canon and not throw in the reciprocation, tears, pull in for a kiss, etc that we know exists either in our hearts or on Jackles’ phone.)

I’ve been thinking about this and the parameters we’d have to apply if we were gonna get something like the show being self-healing back to its self as we know it but we were allowed a confession. Also the show has to be as punishing as ever. So these are my personal theses on each season... 

Season 7 the confession would have to be after Cas comes back, and everything in 7x17 that looked like Dean was jealous of Daphne and Meg textually was meant to be read that way in the set up for the confession. To make it the most painful obviously we still get Cas exactly as he was all through to the end of the season and he never really says anything too different but then right when they’re having the “cursed or not” discussion he’d bust out of nowhere that he supposes it is inevitable Dean would talk him into going on this dangerous mission to get Dick because obviously Cas loves him. And Dean, who is in a weirdly zen sort of place in the remaining minutes of season 7 after Bobby’s send off and final words that helped him go make up with Cas, is in a similarly season 15 oddly okay spot, mental health wise. At least. COMPARED TO ALL THE REST OF SEASON 7. But I still personally have always read it as a genuinely good place for him that could have endured much longer if not for *gestures everything that happened after stabbing Dick* and obviously making up with Cas was step one and a huge part of his process. 

(idk if you’ve noticed but 7x23 pretty much has no Sam and Dean interaction after Bobby’s send off, and their last good broments are really scarce; it feels sort of natural for abrupt calamity and no time for teary farewells in a season with a strong commentary on grief, which also hyperfocuses the attention on Dean n Cas there.)

So I think Dean would maybe be stunned but maybe quirk a sceptical smile like “He can’t mean it like that and anyway he’s currently coo-coo, this doesn’t mean anything hahaha oh Cas :)))” and then idk shake his head and move the story on and Cas just turns one longing look after him like “dammit that didn’t work out like planned” 

Anyway then the exact plot beats of 7x23 follow, exactly as seen on your screens, but we’re left going into season 8 and Carver era with Dean far far more messed up about Cas and it can force clarification in 8x02 in Purgatory where Cas is entirely adamant he meant what he meant and furious at Dean for being mad at him and Dean’s mad at Cas for all the season 8 reasons so they continue angsting at each other but Benny’s reaction shots are just 10x funnier. This is followed by Dean’s reciprocation of “I love you” instead of “I need you” in the crypt scene in 8x17 and from there honestly it’s been built up into canon in such a way that the emotional arc of the show has to go off the wheels and I can’t keep to the self-healing model to continue following the “real” plot and contain this much raw power.

Coincidentally, if the first confession is in season 8, it would be “what broke the connection” after a season 8 where nothing was different up until that point. Cas flaps off while Dean is still processing that the answer was “You. I love you.” and Dean is left yelling at the empty crypt like “What the hell, Cas?!” 

Then he’s as mad at him as he was in canon except instead of being borderline a really bad overreaction into his anger phase which we have to weather as miserable fans tethered to this ship who know sometimes Dean gets mad and yells at Cas for no reason, he’s reacting proportionately. It’s always seemed like 8x22 only makes sense if Dean is furious at Cas for confessing and fleeing except, obviously, in our “”real”” canon, it can only be like Cas confessed and Dean took it that way and also felt embarrassed how far he went with his own feelings only for Cas to run. 

This would make the bar scene with the cupids in 8x23 make a lot more sense too, and after they get the cupid bow Dean’s going to turn to Cas and give him a nervous smile, and then - Naomi flaps in like she does and distracts them away from reciprocation. 

I think this one could go long - maybe even season 13 Cas being dead and Dean being like “FUCK I never got a chance to work things out with him” and 13x06 onwards is where we get any actual work on the ship, because Carver era was so determined to be emotionally gruelling and unsatisfying and relentless from one issue to the next. And the confessions are so bound up specifically in the moments of miscommunication or failed attempts, cut off conversations etc that whether Destiel is canon or not, they’re never gonna get to talk it out under those conditions. Cas is only explicitly the grieving wife and jealous ex to Crowley’s smug take over of Dean’s affections rather than subtextually. 

The season 9 confession... I feel like we’d come perilously close to the Monkey Paw curse we once envisioned of Buckleming making it canon because they love jumping the gun on plot points and making them too obvious. So the end of 9x03, Cas is really blatantly angling to come in with a big “Hey I’m human can I live in the Bunker look at me I learned to do The Sex can we do it now” kind of vibe. All the enthusiasm he was giving to eating that burrito in the background while “Zeke” was trying to get him kicked out, but with lusting over Dean :P 

If we avoid that we can leap to Mr Bobo Berens and his first episode, and have this thing handled by a pro, as it’s already very much about Cas as a homeless queer man with a bad ex he still loves rolling into town where he’s just trying to make a new life and play straight - I mean human - for his own survival. I suspect the confrontation with Iphraim would make it really obvious that Cas didn’t just want to live as a human but had an eye for living as a human with Dean, and then he’d attempt a confession right before Dean would accidentally talk over, like, the L in “love” honestly, to tell him that sorry things do still stand that you can’t come back with me. Leaves Cas utterly devastated but Dean is none the wiser and he drives off and Cas pines piningly at the pine trees in his Gas n Sip. 

Again the end of season probably would force the real confession, since there’s a ready made moment in 9x22 where Hannah tries to force Cas to kill Dean and he gives it all up for one man. Cas can just lower that knife and be like, “No, I love him,” talking to his shoes and Hannah rather than meeting Dean’s eyes. Mark of Cain Dean is fuuuucked up at that point but we still get the moment where Dean carries Cas’s bag into the bunker and sits down with him and tries to care about his health and now also this confession. Sussing out what the heck is up with Cas, and maybe he looks like he’s playing it cool and is still so messed up but Cas is vulnerable, and finally Dean starts to reach across the library table for his hand, and it’s a moment where maybe things could have started to go better for them...... Cue Gadreel walking into the library, Dean going feral, blah blah demon!Dean, blah blah explicitly stated Drowley, blah blah muuuch healing and Cas giving Dean a wide berth for a lil while. Though, in this scenario, 10x22 is far worse but has the reverse crypt scene moment, so Dean can be more obviously unable to kill Cas because he loves him, and then he walks out, followed by season 11 and Cas being returned to them. Unfortunately. Yep. Another finger curls on the Monkey Paw... 11x03 by Buckleming would absolutely be where Destiel goes undeniably canon as it is their first real interactions post Mark of Cain. Our only consolation - directed by Jensen Ackles.

Season 10 confession, hm. Poor Cas. He has the option of 10x03, of confessing and then immediately apologising and walking off to handle stuff with Hannah (thanks Buckleming!) or the Burger Date, where Dean may be slightly less stunned stupid but still likely to laugh it off and not believe it. There’s not much heavy tension between them most of the season so it’s possible that the only time Cas would really get is to confess in 10x22 while telling Dean that he would have to watch him murder the world, and that would suck because I love you. At which point the story dictates that Dean beats Cas to paste so it’s a very bad look. Season 10 destiel confession is the worst. 

Season 11 may be better because Cas has options to be jealous of Crowley and Dean’s connection to Amara multiple times and then Casifer happens and that can really play up things in a season where a confession is coming. 

I think the Beer Run in 11x23 might be the only viable place, where Dean grabs Cas and takes him out for that drive for last drinks before the end of the world. Cas gets the “you’re our brother” thing and just lays into Dean with the certainty of someone who knows this is it - now or nothing - with “You know that’s crap, Dean. You wait until the end of the world and you can’t even say it. Well I can; I love you.” 

Cue awkward tension, well-placed interrupting Moose, and then the world very much not ending so that when Dean n Cas hug and kiss in front of Mary in 12x01. Well. There’s even more explaining to do to her. Since we’ve made it to Dabb era, I believe any confessions from this point onwards can just slot into the show as we got it from there since it’s entirely compatible to start season 12 assuming Dean n Cas are literally married and never be contradicted by the text in their behaviour. But since we’ve had canon Destiel since whenever, obviously the final episodes are good instead of. That.

Season 12... Going to have to go with the first sniff of true canon coming in Lily Sunder with just a few lines leaning even further in the Cas’s Angel Family Are Homophobic Assholes metaphor, leaving Cas’s relationship with Dean even more live wire exposed. Followed by The Mixtape Scene where Cas is going to confess to Dean and get him startled up out of his seat, accidentally knocking the mixtape to the floor and for a moment it’s like, did he throw it is he mad? but then he’s smooching Cas, fade to black, return to scheduled programming but the whole line about Cas stealing the Colt from under Dean’s pillow makes fuckin sense, as well as the fall out argument and how mad Dean was at Cas followed by how devastated he was at Cas’s death. This just means Dabb era continues as planned except we get a kiss in 13x06 under that big glowy cross, and some more smooching here and there when things are good from then on. 

Season 13... Hm. Cas has to do the confessing and I don’t think he’d throw that at Dean on return from death so unlike if Dean was the one who was being made to confess obviously the aforementioned glowy cross scene obviously would be it for him... Cas could keep that bottled up much longer, especially as he has so much to do with Jack this season. It’s entirely possible we go through the whole season and then Cas lobs it at Dean as a final card when he’s making his Michael decision and we actually see the scene that we didn’t get, where Cas has to watch Dean getting possessed. Except Dean is like, tearful and furious like why would you tell me that now, and anyway i’m doing this for you as well dumbass but fuck you but also how dare you anyway I need to be an archangel now and save our - your - son, bye. Cue Cas sitting there not just in total horror at what happened but also kicking himself for fucking up the moment :P I guess this way at least we can have that moment where Dean is un-Michaeled and tells Cas he’s going to shower and finger guns at him, and now we can have Cas wordlessly and furiously follow him. 

Season 14, we get Cas at Rocky’s bar confessing to Dean while figment!Pamela cheers the whole thing on. If there was EVER a time to use the power of love to snap Dean out of it, Cas upsetting his cosy routine with “this isn’t real, I’M NOT HERE IN YOUR FANTASY” is absolutely the time to pull a reverse crypt scene which has such low stakes in terms of neither of them needing to punch each other when Michael is an external aggressor.

My ONLY issue with this is that Sam has to witness the whole thing and we would get reaction shots and I am a weak mortal who will start cackling at them when I’m supposed to be having the transcendent moment of canon and the whole thing would be ruined just because of the way Jared gurns when doing reactions to dean n cas interacting. Wow thanks. Thanks a lot.