Hot take: Some persecutors are just bad people. Not all persecutors are misguided protectors.

definitely. Some alters are just bad people in general. They don't even have to be persecutors. Like we have a anger holder that's a pretty shitty guy. He's not misguided. He knows what he's doing, he just doesn't care. We also have a protector that's a horrible person who tries to fight everyone. Not to protect us, no, he wants to fight people just because he likes fighting.

While abuser introjects are often volatile, beneath it lies so much pain. Empathize/Sympathize, don’t Demonize. The more you do so, the more likely we will make your life hell. We are hurt, too.

-Klaus

How neat! I found this archive of an online essay written in 1997 by two partner systems. It's about communicating with persecutor & protector alters in DID/OSDD. Check it out by clicking here.

My therapist taught me a lot of these tips while I learned to work with my system. It's cool to see that the online community has been sharing tips like these for so long. Do you guys find the essay helpful? If not, what helps you work with the persecutor & protector alters in your system?

(Disclaimer: This is an archiving blog that posts about events that took place in the past. Sources on this blog do not always reflect up-to-date info on dissociative disorders or plurality.)

in a semi recent post, there was a mention of persecutor levels. would you explain this more? what are the different levels?

Persecutor Alters- Alters created by the child as a protective measure to ensure compliance with the abusers so as not become further traumatised. They act intimidating, and abusive, as did the abusers, and threaten the other alters with harm if any alter considers violating the wishes, commands, directives, etc., of the abusers. Such as disclosing the abuse, or refusing to attend rituals. 

     An alter who, for the sake of safety, has identified with the motives and agenda of the abuser and punishes other alters, internally (torment) or externally (self-harm), in the absence of the abuser when they do not measure up to the perceived expectations of the abuser. They do so in the hope of saving the person from even more abuse. These alters may enforce an abuser’s  rules about never crying, or punishing them for doing anything the abuser might object to. Often the persecutor alter is unaware that the abuser no longer has access to them as a result the alter continues the oppression when there is no longer the need.

     Some persecutors may be introjects of abusers. Some persecutor alters are alters from the system that internalised the rules of the perpetrator, and continue to follow those rules, but don’t necessarily believe themselves to actually be the perpetrator person whereas introjects actually think they are that perpetrator person.

In my notes that I have regarding alter/parts types there are eight types of persecutor alters. I’m not going to provide their roles as people have expressed concern regarding the amount of information I share. I want to ensure people are safe and I don’t provide ‘too much’ information. 

Oz

Dealing with persecutors

There is no one fits all when dealing with persecutor alters, they have vastly different needs. Even if one persecutor craves love and understanding or your gratitude for what they took on for you, this might enrage a different persecutor. I believe theres no one fits all solution for the self-destruction that persecutors invite into your life. And trying to turn them into protectors like a lot of therapists will attempt to do might only turn them against you further. Not every persecutor alters harms you out of a misguided wish to protect you either, some do, some play out patterns they learned that kept the system safe as a child - but this does not apply to every persecutor uner the sun. Some persecutors sincerely *enjoy* harming you sadistically, and they mimick your abusers in doing so. Its difficult to accept that some persecutors are really just that turned against you, how split-apart you are and how much of a individual they experience themselves and you to be enables them in that, but even with those persecutors you can eventually find a solution to be free of their harm, and this too can vary - even if like most abusers they have fears behind their actions, you may or may not be able to work it out via what fears they have and why they need that extra feeling of power over you, the reasons could be anything like "our abuser got to do it too! Now I want to be in charge!" or "I find it unfair that im not the host personality!" or "Im in pain so you should be too! Its not fair I am a trauma-holder and you get to go without being in this hell!" But no matter how hopeless it seems or how hard the pain is they impact, if you have enough patience you will find a way to work on it with them, or around them. In some cases you will have to ignore them and their existence and not feed into them, this is the approach my therapist recommended with one specific persecutor and I know a lot of people online would recommend against this approach as it would enrage the persecutor worse, but this can be only initially in some cases. Like I said there is no one fit all solution, sometimes you need to do the things online spheres have told you are wrong or immoral or irresponsible to get your life back, in other cases you can do what might be more instinctual to you, to simply love and accept them and create safety for them they never had. I want you to know there is nothing bad or wrong with you if you had to choose approaches that might be more rejected by online spaces. Sometimes it may be even necessary to lock the alter away if you have a alter able of doing so. Sometimes they may stop hurting you once youve done something that earns their respect. It all varies hugely and invidiual situations never can be solved by a one fit all solution.

Shoutout to persecutors whose end goal of recovery isn’t being a protector (or some other supporting role)

Shoutout to persecutors who don’t want to engage in what’s generally thought of as “recovery”

Shoutout to persecutors who prioritize change/personal growth/adaptation to what they’re dealing with now, not “recovery”

Shoutout to persecutors who want to be recognized for who they are now, not who they might be in the future

Shoutout to persecutors who need to continue to be persecutors in order to deal with their current environment, persecutors who aren’t “safe” yet

Shoutout to persecutors who have no internal motivation to change their morality or ethics

Shoutout to persecutors who see nothing wrong with what they’re doing, but still have to change their behavior

Shoutout to persecutors who struggle to change their behavior

Shoutout to persecutors who prefer ways of coping and interacting with others that aren’t “therapist-approved”

Shoutout to persecutor-protectors and persecutors-turned-protectors who do their jobs in a way that isn’t soft and positive, or do their job in a “mean” way

We’re valuable as we are now, not just as we might be later or might’ve been earlier

Persecutors are important, because who else will take another's life to save yours?

Persecutors are important, because who else would scare off people that would want you to pull you apart?

Persecutors are important, because who else would be able to stomach the pain and push past the darkness?

Persecutors are important, because who else will fight with you, screaming for us to hear?

Persecutors are important, because they've lived through this, how else will one reach sanctuary without suffering?

Persecutors are important, because who else will sit here, with you, while everything fades to black?

Please don't erase their pain, discount their trials and tribulations, or ignore the darkness, that all of you once faced? I understand some of you want to erase your scars, but not all of us do. Listen to those who are battle harden, dark and all. We're not perfect, but we ask you to hold a place for us. Don't erase us, please accept us.

System Dynamic Rambles with XIV: Chapter 1; We Don't Have Persecutors in This System

Ignore the dramatic title I thought it would be funny. Like this MIGHT be a series if I have more rambles on the topic, but I'm mostly clowning up there. That said, I really wanted to go on an acre long spiel about how systematic thinking and how individualistic thinking / capitalism is a plague on living and finding stability with DID; but I was only supposed to be out to go pick up Riku their sandwich so I will just open up one chapter line on this and leave the rest for if I feel like it later.

None of these are supposed to be professional or organized, thus the "rambles" just some thoughts of mine that I feel might be worth thinking about.

Additionally, these are my opinions and perspectives; I will be stating absolute statements in terms of recovery and while I do realize there are likely different ways of healing and different perspectives and there is never a "no way" or "never" in healing, this is how we approach our system and these are of my opinions. This paragraph serves as a disclaimer for if anyone is sensitive to that to just turn around.

But first things first, our system operates as a unit. The general theme of this whole ramble and if there is anything I would want to say as my first piece of advice to any alter or part in a leadership or leadership-adjacent position (host or respected leading protector) that the thing you have to know first and foremost is that you are never going to get anywhere or reduce any long term stability by playing games of "what >I< want" or denying anyone anything; even if what they want on a surface level sounds entirely opposite to what you want.

My main point of claim to that is that you can't kick parts out of your system, you can't kill parts in your system, you can repress them and silence them and ignore them and pretend they aren't there, but every time you do that it will only simply make them come back stronger in the future and you will be 100% back to where you were at best, or worse - with someone even more adamant and stuck in the surface level of what they "want".

You can't say "no" to a part that expresses that they really want something, because more often than not, that want - if genuine and strong - is a need. It might not sound like a need to you, but it is a need. If you want something and another part wants something that conflicts with it, you do not say no, you sit down and get to the root of both of your "wants" to see what "need" the "wants" fulfills and you find a way to incorporate both NEEDS the best possible. Anything attempt less than that will always drive up conflict, instability, bad blood, and poor faith between parts and overall make your life an increasing living hell.

With that in mind, I go by the mantra of "erase the words 'I want'" from your functional and serious communication vocabulary - its fine to think and feel and say it whenever - but you should not be approaching in a leading role with "I want" but collect yourself and to the best of your ability lead with "Currently I want and am working towards XYZ because [reason / need]" and keeep that perspective and mindset when trying to help a part that has a need / want that is "incompatible" figure out the core reason / need that they are operating and wanting from the system and thus incooperating both needs / reasons with a "Need first" perspective.

As long as there is a class in any society, or in a system, whose needs are not being met, there will inherently always be distrust, instability, chaos, and conflict. With distrust, instability, chaos, and conflict - even those that are "good" and "successful" will eventually find themselves unable to reach their goals or properly establish any form of consistent and stable peace as those that are being scuffed to the side will inevitably find themselves unable to bear with the weight of their neglected needs.

With that in mind, I started the movement in our system that has officially taken hold that this system has absolutely zero persecutors. None. We have introjects of abusers, we have trauma holders, we have parts that re-instate abuse as a protective measure, but we do not have any persecutors, because there is no one who is hurting the system.

We have parts that like the term persecutor, they can call themselves that, but among the leadership roles in this system, those are just "parts who engage in persecutory behavior more than others and identify with that". We refuse to perceive any part in our system as a problem or anything against the whole because - for better or worse - no one can leave the system so being against it doesn't really work for those of us trying to maintain peace and direction for the unit.

Parts who engage in persecutory behaviors are in then simply behaving as a "part whose needs are not being met by the system". People, animals, and living beings - when their needs are met - are prone to being content and cooperative, if a part is being aggressive or uncooperative, it is because they have a need.

So rather than having persecutors, we have parts who are being failed by the current system in hand and parts who are upset as a result. There is no 'against the system' or 'hurting the system' or 'abusing the system', simply that whatever we currently have in place currently does not effectively take them into account.

From there it is not that you have to fix the part or reject their needs, it is that you have to fix the system itself by investigating where in the state of the system that part is being failed; what need are they having that is not getting met, and what is the best and most practical way to fix that.

It's not something easy and its definitely easier said than done, but it is really the only sustainable way we've found to actively, rapidly, and effectively stabilizing an unstable environment.

Theres a lot more to it and shit, but thats just chapter one of my communist manifesto. Tune in for more later.

-XIV

hi. i saw a something you shared the other day and it got me curious (obviously you dont have to answer and i really hope thiss isnt inappropriate)

what exactly is a persecutor ?

A persecutor is a kind of alter role given to parts who cause harm to the system in some way. Persecutors often hold a lot of trauma and pain, they may believe they are being helpful when in reality they're causing harm. Persecutors may lack healthy coping skills or may not understand the error of their ways. We noticed many of our persecutors either 1. Don't know any good coping skills or haven't found any that work for them 2. Believe that what they doing/saying will prepare us for more trauma or will prevent more trauma from happening 3. They believe self sabotage will keep the system safe/protect us from harm or 4. They want to ease/put an end to their pain and the systems pain.

I wanted to put in this long explanation because it's a common misconception that persecutors are bad and that's far from the truth. I understand they can be scary, some of our persecutors scare the shit out of me sometimes, but they're hurting and learned maladaptive ways to help/deal with their pain and with some of the trauma they went through I can understand why they ended up developing these harmful behaviors. At the end of the day, persecutors deserve compassion and understanding, it may be hard sometimes but with lots of work persecutors can learn to be more helpful and less harmful, they can learn to see the error in their ways and change. We still struggle a lot with ours, but just recently one, surprisingly, fronted during therapy and I think that will open the door for other persecutors to start seeking out help with our therapist. Sorry for this long ass response lol I just wanted to explain some things I guess.

IMPORTANT PSA ABOUT 'PROBLEMATIC SOURCES'

If you ban certain alters from certain sources from your space, you are being abelist. No one controls how introjects form, no one controls their source and no one exists just to trigger you. Try to take a minute to realize that excluding those alters alienates so many systems. It's not up to you how systems cope.

Random assortment of Persecutor userboxes I made because I couldn’t find any I liked.

Use these as examples for my work.

Credit is not needed but appreciated.

What do you suggest for dealing with persecutors? We have many but one is adamant about keeping us in a cycle of abuse by reenacting trauma that happened outside on the inside to other parts. Do you think that all persecutors are misguided protectors or is it possible a part is just plain evil? Thank you for all the information you provide, this site helps us a lot. Hope all is well.

Here’s some information:

These alters are modelled after the abuser. The perspective behaviour can be demonstrated in different forms. Patients report taunting and negative messages that they hear inside their heads, blaming the patient for abuse, condemning, threatening to hurt the patient, and telling them they need to die, or to pay for succumbing to the abuser. Often the host will act on these messages and this is commonly when the patient becomes introduced to the mental health system. They may cut or burn themselves in self-mutilation, or may actually make a serious suicide attempt. During therapy the patient may become terrified because the persecutor is threatening to kill the host for sharing information about the abuse or the personality system. The host and alters are sometimes very frightened by the feelings and/or ideas of another alter, in as much as they feel they have no control over, or protection from, the other’s actions.

Though difficult to understand at times, self-injury does in fact serve a certain purpose. Patients report a sense of relief after self-mutilation. They often feel they deserve to be punished and will temporarily feel better because they have paid for being bad. Self-mutilation can also be seen as a protective mechanism; DID patients believe they are avoiding more grotesque harm from the abuser, because they have instead hurt themselves. (Fike, 1990a)

It is important to see that these alters were originally created as a defence mechanism. Though this mechanism might have kept the child alive in the past, in adult life it only serves as a negative influence. Understanding the rationale for self-abuse is essential for cessation of the behaviour. The persecutor personality must begin to understand that, though this behaviour was important to survival in the past, it is no longer helpful.

I don’t think parts are ‘just plain evil.’ They may have been told that, therefore believe it. No, I don’t think they are evil. I think they are wounded, and fearful, this leads to safety seeking behaviours that are harmful.

We’re doing alright. Thank you for following and asking your question.

Take care,

Oz

When you realize your own violent potential even if it exists split-off from you, is in alters with their own unique lives from you, you feel powerful even if you think its wrong, if you think its unhealthy, you think power is power.

[ID: shocked Joey meme. Panel one: me when I think I can take a break from my job because the host's in consistent psychological torment. Panel two: me when I realize it's been two years and spot them in the inner world. /End Id]

Me realizing that I have capitalist villain persecutors is because of my trauma with money. Like being told growing up that I'm greedy, frivolous and impulsive for buying things for me. For wanting to not be poor or unstable.

Like fuck,,, damn. I want comfort, I want luxury, I want safety, I want abundance. I want to live comfortably, so much, that it hurts me, so much that it drowns me.

damn.

i am just so angry all the time