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david-talks-sw · 8 months

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Debunking more myths in the GFFA: the Jedi and the clones.

I wrote a post debunking the various myths about how "the Jedi condone slavery", a while ago. Something I had omitted (because it's such a big topic) was the following two statements that concern the clone troopers' relations with the Jedi:

"The clones were genetically bred to have accelerated growth, so they're technically child soldiers."

"The clones were slaves of the Jedi."

Both the above statements are inaccurate, let's explore why.

"The clones were child soldiers"

Let's get the easy one out of the way first, because it's a logic that cuts both ways. If age is our only determination of the maturity of a Star Wars character, then Grogu is not a baby. He is aged 50, and is thus a middle-aged man.

Who cruelly eats the babies of a woman...

... and knowingly tortures animals for his own sadistic pleasure.

Of course, I'm kidding. Grogu's none of the above things.

The narrative frames him as a cute baby who does innocent baby stuff. Him eating the eggs is played off as comedic, as is him lifting with the frog. To this day, some fans still call him "Baby Yoda".

Conversely, despite the clones being 10/14-years-old, their actions, behaviors, way of thinking, sense of humor, morals etc, are all those of an adult.

Like, Ahsoka is technically older than Rex in this scene.

The scene doesn't portray them as peers, though. This isn't written as "a teen and a tween talking". No, Rex looks, acts and behaves like a grown-up and is thus framed as such by the narrative.

You can make the argument "they're child soldiers", but (unless you're doing so in bad faith) you'd also have to argue that "Grogu's an adult".

"The clones were the Jedi's slaves"

Nope. For all intents and purposes, they're in the same boat as the Jedi, who George Lucas stated multiple times had been drafted to fight in the war.

Again: both the Jedi (monk/diplomats untrained for fighting on a battlefield) and clones (literally bred en masse only to fight) are being forced to fight by Palpatine and the Senate.

Though, on paper, the clones were commissioned by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, it was actually done by the Sith (who either manipulated or assassinated Sifo-Dyas then stole his identity, depending on the continuity you choose to adhere to). The rest of the Jedi had no idea these clones were being created.

So while the clones are slaves... they're not owned by the Jedi.

They're the army of the Republic, they belong to the Senate. This isn't exactly a scoop, they refer to the clones as something to purchase...

... and manufacture.

As far as the Senate’s concerned, clones are property, like droids.

Like there's a whole subplot in The Bad Batch about this very point: after the war, the clones are decommissioned and left out to dry because they literally have no rights, they served their purpose.

The only trooper to ever canonically blame the Jedi for the clones' enslavement is Slick, who the narrative frames as having been bribed and manipulated by Asajj Ventress into betraying his comrades.

Also, the only canonical Jedi shown to ever be mean, dismissive or mistreating the clones in any way, is Pong Krell.

And it's eventually revealed he’s in fact a full-on traitor, hence why the story frames him as an antagonistic dick from the moment he's introduced. He doesn’t represent the Jedi in any way.

We know this because the other Jedi we’ve been shown are always prioritizing their clones’ lives over theirs, if given the chance.

Finally, if we wanna get even more specific... as Commander-in-Chief of the Grand Army of the Republic (GAR), the clones belong to Palpatine.

Palpatine who is a Sith Lord.

Palpatine who arranged for the creation of the clones and had them all injected with a chip that would activate upon hearing a code-word...

... and forced them to murder their Jedi without hesitation or remorse.

When you bear all that ⬆️ in mind and when you read this quote by George Lucas...

"The Jedi won't lead droids. Their whole basis is connecting with the life force. They'd just say, 'That's not the way we operate. We don't function with non-life-forms.” So if there is to be a Republic army, it would have to be an army of humans." - The Star Wars Archives: 1999-2005, 2020

... narratively-speaking, everything falls into place.

Sidious knows that:

If he orchestrates a war designed to thin the Jedi's numbers, corrupt their values and plunge the galaxy into chaos...

If he wants to draft the Jedi - peace-keeping diplomats who’d never willingly join the fray - to fight in his war...

... then the only way they won't resist the draft and abstain from fighting is if they think joining the conflict will save lives.

So he creates a set of cruel, sadistic villains for them to face, opponents who will target innocent civilians at every turn...

... and instead of lifeless droids, he prepares for the Jedi an army of men... living, mortal people who, despite being well-trained, will be completely out of their league when facing the likes of Dooku...

... Ventress...

... Grievous...

... Savage Opress...

... or the defoliator, a tank that annihilates organic matter.

Thus, in order to save as many clone and civilian lives, the Jedi join the fray despite knowing that doing so will corrupt their values.

And as the war rages on, a bond of respect is formed between the two groups.

Clearly, the Jedi don't like the fact that the Republic is using the clones to fight a war, but for that matter, they don't like being in a war, in fact they advocated against it.

However, it's happening regardless of their issues with the idea or personal philosophies. Said The Clone Wars writer Henry Gilroy:

"I’d rather not get into the Jedi’s philosophical issues about an army of living beings created to fight, but the Jedi are in a tough spot themselves, being peacekeepers turned warriors trying to save the Republic."

And bear in mind, the Jedi are basically space psychics, the clones are living beings that they can individually feel in the Force...

... so the Jedi feel every death but need to move on, regardless, only being able to mourn the troopers at the end of every battle.

We see this in the Legends continuity too, by the way.

(that is, when the writers actually try to engage with the narrative)

Also, if you ask the clones, they’re grateful the Jedi have their backs.

When Depa Billaba voices her concerns about how the war is impacting the Jedi's principles, troopers Grey and Styles are quick to make it clear how grateful they all are for the Jedi's involvement:

So the clones aren't the Jedi's slaves. If anything, they're both slaves of the Republic (considering how low the Jedi's status actually is in the hierarchy).

Only I'd argue the clones have it much, much worse.

The Senate sees the Jedi as "ugh, the holier-than-thou space-monk lapdogs who work for us"... but a Jedi has the option to give up that responsibility. They can leave the Order, no fuss or stigma.

A clone trooper cannot leave the GAR! If they do, they’re marked for treason and execution. Again, they’re not perceived as “people”.

And it doesn’t help that the Kaminoans, the clones’ very creators, see the troopers as products/units/merchandise. A notion that the Jedi are quick to correct whenever they get the chance.

How The Clone Wars writers describe the clones' relationship with the Jedi.

George Lucas hasn’t spoken much about this subject aside from the quote from further up. But to be fair... the Prequels aren’t about the clones’ dynamic with the Jedi, so it makes sense that he wouldn’t talk on that subject so much.

He did mention that part of The Clone Wars’ perks is that he could:

“Do stories about some of the individual clones and get to know them.”

But that’s as far as it gets.

So for this part, I'm just gonna let Dave Filoni, showrunner of The Clone Wars and the upcoming series Ahsoka, and TCW writer Henry Gilroy - both of whom worked closely with Lucas - take the wheel. They make themselves pretty clear on how the clone/Jedi dynamic is meant to be viewed.

Here’s Henry Gilroy:

"In my mind, the Jedi see the clones as individuals, living beings that have the same right to life as any other being, but understand that they have a job to do."

"The clones see the Jedi as their commanding officers on one hand, but also, at least subconsciously, they look to them for clues to social/moral behavior."

"Some clones may find themselves getting philosophical leadership from the Jedi that helps them answer some of the deeper questions of life."

"We thought this was a great opportunity to show how the Jedi interact with clones. Specifically, Yoda in a teaching role of the clones, who were socially new, who kind of grew up— who were created to fight, and he really broadened their horizons and helped them realize there was a great big universe out there that was bigger than just fighting and killing."

And here’s Dave Filoni’s comments:

"I truly believe that the Jedi try to humanize their clones and make them more individual, as Henry says."

"I think we saw that in Revenge of the Sith, when the Clones were colorful and named under the Jedi Generals, and then in the final shots of the film with Palpatine and Vader near the new Death Star, the ships are grey, the color and life is sucked out. The Stormtroopers are only numbers and identified by black and white armor or uniforms in A New Hope."

"The soldiers have become disposable to the Emperor."

"That is something the Jedi would never do."

"Yoda teaching the clones much like he taught Luke. ‘Cause that was kind of natural for [the Jedi], a natural instinct to take to these clones like they’re students."

None of the above quotes from two different writers of The Clone Wars, who had many interactions with George Lucas, frame the Jedi and the clones’ relationship in a negative way.

How much more proof do we need that "the clones were slaves of the Jedi” isn’t the intended narrative?

My point being that while the clones' ordeal is indeed horrible, the Jedi have nothing to do with it. The narrative of The Clone Wars always frames it as the fault of the Sith, the Senate and the Kaminoans.

If you go by the intended narrative, the Jedi were the clones' teachers and brothers-in-arms. The clones and the Jedi were not just comrades.

They were friends.

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jedi-enthusiast · 8 months

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Ngl I think a lot of people, when they talk about Jedi and attachments and how "the Jedi should be allowed to have them," just plain ignore the single most important show of attachment in all of Star Wars.

Padme and Anakin.

Obviously people bring them up 24/7 when they want to bash the Jedi or pretend that Anidala is the epitome of a "healthy relationship" (lmao), but when it comes to the actual point of how their relationship is framed and how it highlights how attachment works/what it does---suddenly all the discussion around Anakin and Padme disappears!

Anakin's attachment to Padme and his unwillingness to let her go is LITERALLY what ends up killing her!!!

He has dreams of her dying, becomes convinced that those dreams are what's gonna happen (despite the unreliable nature of visions), and---instead of actually telling anyone anything in enough detail so they could actually help---he:

- Starts working with a Sith Lord

- Massacres a Temple full of children, the elderly, the injured, etc. and the people who were caring for them

- Helps commit a genocide

- Overthrows democracy

And then, once Padme won't support him vying for them to control the galaxy, he becomes convinced that she's betrayed him and attempts to kill her---then, later on, because of Anakin's actions Padme dies.

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THAT is what attachment is and what it does.

Attachment is being unable, unwilling, to let someone go, no matter what that might mean for you or them, because you don't want to go through life without them---and the people you try to hold onto so tight ultimately get crushed in your grip because of it.

Think of it like holding someone's hand.

Non-attachment would be, when the other person wants to stop, letting them slip away and being happy with what you had while you had it---being content whether they choose to stay by your side or run off to go do something else.

Attachment would be, when the other person tries to let go, tightening your grip or grabbing their wrist---hurting them because you don't want there to even be a chance that you would be without them.

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So no, the Jedi were not wrong to teach non-attachment and they should not have "changed their philosophies so they were allowed to have attachments" like some people have suggested, because attachment is unhealthy and selfish and all it does is end up hurting those around you.

#star wars #sw prequels #anti anakin skywalker #anakin skywalker critical #anti anidala #anidala critical #pro jedi #in defense of the jedi

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short-wooloo · 1 month

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Now that the trailer is out, it's probably best that I get this out of the way before acolyte releases

The Jedi are right about the Force and the dark side

The Jedi did not lose their way

The Jedi were not corrupted

The genocide of the Jedi was not their fault

The Jedi are not wrong for being part of the Republic, it is in fact a good thing

The Jedi are not arrogant for thinking the sith are gone

and while we're at it the sith are evil, always, end of discussion

The Jedi do not steal children

If someone wants to leave the Jedi, that's allowed, no one will stop them

The Jedi are right about attachment

Attachment is not love (SW uses the Buddhist definition because Lucas is a Buddhist and the Jedi are based off Buddhist monks, Buddhism defines attachment as being possessive or unwilling to let go of people or things)

The Jedi do not forbid emotions, they forbid being controlled by your emotions, you must control them

The Jedi are not forbidden from loving people, nor are they celibate, they just can't get married (big whup) because their duties must come first

Being peacekeepers doesn't preclude the Jedi from fighting in war, sometimes to keep the peace you have to fight back, especially when its against tyranny, see WWII (or Ukraine today)

Gray jedi are not a thing

The Jedi are not slavers or complicit in slavery

Oh and of course, the Jedi are not elitists for not training non Force sensitives, (Han voice) that's not how the Force works, dave filoni broke the rules so he could shoehorn sabine into a Jedi (to give the benefit of the doubt, I do believe sabine's role as ahsoka's apprentice was meant for an original character but things got condensed by executives, so maybe filoni isn't entirely to blame here)

Feel free to add anything I forgot

Do not, DO NOT!! add anything Jedi critical, I'm done with it and won't hear it, don't have something nice to say? Then go away, I will block on sight, either reblog without comment (either in the reblog or the notes) or don't interact at all

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nateofgreat · 3 months

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The "Strictness" of the Jedi

Ahsoka Tano: I was just reckless on the battlefield, violating orders to retreat and had to be forced to pull out.

Mace Windu: You'll be performing extra chores at the Temple for a little while.

Ahsoka Tano: I just lost my lightsaber and am too embarrassed to tell my Master about it.

Jocasta Nu: Well that's alright dear. Here, why don't I introduce you to Master Sinube our expert on the underworld, he'll help you find it. We won't even tell your Master.

Ahsoka Tano: *Spends the investigation threatening people, beating them up, and being consumed with impatience and fear.*

Master Sinube: That's alright, we'll use this as a learning opportunity. I'm going to teach you patience! Then bring you to a youngling class to pass the lesson on.

Ahsoka Tano: I lied and snuck my way onto the Citadel mission purely because no one had done it before and I wanted to be apart of it.

Plo Koon: No problem, I'll cover for you.

Ahsoka Tano: I just spoke out of turn to the Jedi Council.

The Council: Whatever. And we blame you for this, Anakin.

Ahsoka Tano: I muddled an investigation into a bombing, beat up Clones who tried to arrest me, worked with a known Sith Assassin, and broke out of prison.

Jedi Council: We award you with Knighthood at the age of sixteen.

Ahsoka Tano: I demand an army to invade a neutral planet because an ex-terrorist asked me to do it!

Obi-Wan Kenobi: Okay sure, let me talk to the Council.

Ahsoka Tano: What? The capital's under attack? I don't care! Just give me the army already!

Anakin Skywalker: Here you go.

Ahsoka Tano: I'm not apart of the Jedi Order anymore.

Jedi Council: We'll still share relevant intelligence with you while you deal with the crisis in Mandalore.

#Star Wars #The Jedi #Pro Jedi #Jedi Defense #Mace Windu #Tera Sinube #Jocasta Nu #Obi-Wan Kenobi #Anakin Skywalker #Ahsoka Tano critical #In defense of the Jedi #The Jedi Order #But please tell me again how the Jedi are so mean :(

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furious-blueberry0 · 5 months

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"Oh but the Jedi were so cold and detached and they even condemned love, they were so cruel"

The Jedis were the literal definition of Agape love, but I guess that for you people the only type of love that exists and is valid is the one that leads you to fucking

#star wars #jedi culture #jedi culture respected #jedi love #jedi philosophy #in defense of the jedi #pro jedi #honestly I think they also had a lot of Storge love #but that's a discussion for another day #Anakin was enslaved by Eros and Mania #but this is not his fault or the jedi's fault #this is the result of PALPATINE GROOMING HIM SINCE HE WAS 9!!#This is not an invitation to discussion #If you don't like the jedi just keep scrolling

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sirikenobi12 · 1 month

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"It's not about good or bad, it's about power and who is ALLOWED to use it."

This idea that somehow there is no difference between using power for good and bad or that it's a negative thing to wield power in the name of good is an absolutely absurd and childish point of view.

The Sith are not a group of oppressed rebels - they are a group of Authoritarians who's very creed says "Peace is a Lie". The idea that they deserve to have the same power as a group of people who dedicated their lives to serving others is an insane take on the story.

By that logic the KKK or the Nazis deserve/deserved to hold the same status and power as groups like the UN.

And I just can't wrap my head around this philosophy.

#pro jedi #the acolyte #in defense of the jedi #star wars #sw fandom

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thehollowprince · 2 months

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Denying people the right to romance, sex, and families is fucking inhumane that's why. The priesthood should allow for it too. It's one thing to say it's cool not to have those things, but it's literally fucking inhumane to say "No, you can't have that." Most people need those connections.

So... basically anything that isn't fucking or romance, in terms of relationships, is invalid to you? You don't have friends? No colleagues? Casual acquaintances? No? It only counts if you declare your love and go down right there for everyone to see?

If that's the case, then I am truly sorry that you can't find fulfillment outside of a traditional romance.

In regards to the Jedi (and incidentally, the priesthood), there's a simple fix for those who don't agree with the rules of the organization.

Leave.

Becoming a Jedi isn't mandatory to all Force-sensitives, the same way that not every Catholic has to sign up to be a priest/nun, or every Buddhist has to sign up to be a monk. It is not a prerequisite for those religions, any more than it is for those in the Galaxy Far Far Away. As a matter of fact, there is a whole slew of other Force-based religions and organizations in that Galaxy for Force-sensitives to choose from, most of which are perfectly okay with romance.

At any point in time, if a Jedi (or priest, for that matter) catches feelings for someone, they are completely able to leave the organization to pursue that relationship. I mean, hell, there was a pretty significant character in the Star Wars mythos who left the Order as a Master. So it was always a possibility. Anakin could have at any point in time left the Jedi to pursue his relationship with Padme, and even keep his friendships with the Jedi themselves. Dooku did it (to disastrous results), so I'm positive that Anakin would have been allowed back in the temple to visit his friends.

The fact of the matter is, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Jedi Orded not allowing romantic relationships for their members, as their whole philosophy was about helping others, often at their own expense. We saw that Anakin wasn't able to put anything over his feelings regarding his relationship with Padme, and the galaxy suffered for it.

Bottom line: the Jedi shouldn't have to change their entire philosophy and culture just to accommodate a few individuals who want to have their cake and eat it, too.

#the jedi did nothing wrong #in defense of the jedi #pro jedi

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fanfic-obsessed · 2 years

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We are all Jedi

Consider this:

It is barely a few months into the war. The Jedi know they have been manuevered into leading a child slave army, of course they know. But knowing and being able to do anything substantial about it are two different things. Then an idea sparks.

No one is quite sure how or who. Perhaps it started as a way to let the Younglings help with the war effort, they all want to help so badly. Perhaps it started as a complaint from an exhausted Council member. Perhaps from the Crechlings who found out that Anakin Skywlaker had never been in the creche and insisted that he sleep there one night when he was on leave from deployment (after all, all Jedi need to sleep in the creche at least once) and he came out of that night so much more settled. Perhaps it grew, organic, the way such madness does.

The Idea: they would induct the clones as members of the Jedi Order. It could not become official until the war ends, they would have to be honorary members until they were allowed to update their roles, but they could have a ceremony. It is decided that the Initiates and younglings would design the ceremony, which ended up including a night spent in the creche. The younglings insisted that this ceremony had to be done in smaller groups, so it could be special, so it took nearly a year to induct all of the clones (the first group being the Coruscant guard). And it is entirely possible that Fox and the CG accidentally, and without realizing it, found a way to shield certain information from Palpatine. After all there is a Rodian younlinging in the Creche who’s first words was ‘Fox’. Whom he may visit every other tenday, because she loved to cuddle him and all of the creche masters told him that he was her favorite.

From the point of the first ceremony there were always a few platoons worth of clones in the creche with the younglings. Clone Cadets were given access to, and encouraged to take, the remote classes setup for the initiates and padawans. Padawan commanders now had study groups of their own troops where they could discuss philosophy and ethics and that one essay (Everyone has that One Essay).

It should have been such a small thing, such an insignificant thing, at first many of the the Master wept for the fact that they could not even make it official. Could not free the troops, could not push back against the senate. Could not even tell anyone that the Clones are part of the Order, rather than just belonging to it. But…But, every trooper got experience sleeping under a pile of younglings. Had the pleasure of being fought over, not because they were made for war, but because this one colored the best or that one could do fancy braids. They could wander in and out of the Temple like any other Jedi. And there would always be Pong Krells in the world, but it was so much harder to see someone as disposable or less than when you run into them at 3am in the archives, trying to finish an essay you remember struggling with as a child.

Some things change and others do not.

Then Order 66…The Jedi are traitors.

Only…

The Clones are also Jedi, they slept in the creche and everything. And we could go the sad route: Madness and suicide and even more genocide. But we could also go the other way.

If the Clones are Jedi and the Jedi are traitors then the Clones must be traitors as well. And Good Soldiers follow Orders but they are not Good Soldiers. They are Traitors. There are a number of clones that have a minor freak out because they ‘don’t know how to be a traitor!!!!’ but then someone goes, ‘we can ask our Generals/ Commanders/ our Creche masters, they’ll tell us’.

There is still a good couple of hours of utter confusion for everyone involved as the Jedi try to work out why the troopers thought they were all traitors. In the creche it was universally decided to hand any trooper that comes through the door a youngling to hold as it seemed to calm everyone down. In the Archives, a dozen archivists conspire to give the troopers, many of whom are shaking and confused, something easy and fun to research (the resulting papers would later be cited as the foremost authority in a hundred different topics). Two battalions that had been fighting droids at the time of Order 66 accidentally enter into a cease fire when they inform the droids that they are traitors to the Republic and the droid can’t figure out if they are supposed to keep shooting or not (the clones don’t know either) (the Jedi generals are just glad for the respite).

And the Coruscant guard has possibly been waiting for this moment their entire lives. Each member of the ‘Guard has a list of senators, aides, and assorted others that they would kill given even a sliver of a chance. Immediately upon the news that they are traitors, Fox has them armed and storming the Rotunda. Most of them expect to die, and want to take a few of those bastards out before they go.

Fox himself, feeling more cheerful than he had in some time, meets up with Padme Amidala in a Senate hallway. He nods his head to her respectfully ‘ma’am’, as if she hadn’t just seen him shoot a particularly odious senator's aide.

Padme is cautious and very pregnant, but she is one of the few people who the troopers are trying not to hit. “Commander Fox? What’s going on?”

“Oh, the Chancellor declared us traitors.”

And Padme, heavily pregnant, looks around at the panicking being rushing through the halls, the troopers stalking through somehow radiating a menacing glee, “So your first action is…this”

Fox nods agreeably, still far too cheerful, “Have to be sentient to be traitors. If we’re sentient, then we’re being abused and assaulted, and all those other words where a sentient is being hurt by other. Can’t blame us for taking a piece out of our abusers.”

And Padme feels like she should be able to argue with this but really can’t find the words. Fox, on the basis that she is one of maybe one hundred non clones in the Senate building who is not on any of the ‘Guards kill list, decides that she should be escorted to the Jedi temple with it’s healers. She is very pregnant, all this stress could not be good for her, and the Temple has better medical facilities. Fox manages to round up one of his medics and three troopers whose lists were small enough that they have exacted their revenge already. They are to escort Padme to the temple, along with any of the other ‘Not to Kill’ beings that they might come across.

Anakin starts to storm past, but realizes that Padme is there. He is half fallen to the dark, dazed and looks a bit like corpse. Fox decides that he also needs to be escorted to healers, and makes a joke that Anakin should ‘help’ escort Padme, to make sure this stress isn’t going to hurt her. Anakin, being dazed and more suggestible than is truly healthy (also oblivious about many many things), takes him seriously. They are sent on their way to the temple, where the healers look at Anakin and Padme, promptly getting both of them into a bed.

A few troopers, chasing a senators aide, find Master Windu in the lower levels and bring him to the temple (they may want revenge but they are Jedi first and Windu is one of theirs).

Sidious, who was on nearly every kill list, is powerful. There is no doubt about that. He can easily stop up to twenty blaster shots, plus three slugs, at once. However there are 150 Couruscant Guard, including Fox and Stone, who are able to claim the privilege of shooting him. Twenty five of those with slug throwers.

He died without ever finding out what went wrong with his plan.

#star wars the clone wars #star wars au #fanfiction prompt #order 66 #in defense of the jedi #Jedi Order Respected #sheev palpatine #commander fox #anakin skywalker #padme naberrie

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foundfamilynonsense · 11 months

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What pisses me off sometimes is that many of the people in this fandom already understand attachment but just choose to not use that understanding for the Jedi.

Like. If you weren’t completely confused by Shuri’s arc in the new Black Panther you understand attachment.

If you understood why elenore let chidi leave in the finale of the good place, you understand attachment.

In fact I can think of like eight super hero movies where attachment (and learning to let go of it) is the KEY conflict.

Attachment is not a hard concept to grasp at all. “Letting go” is NEVER portrayed as a bad thing in media. Like. Never. Especially when it’s about letting go of a loved one who died instead of getting revenge.

When people watch a super hero movie and the super hero starts acting like a villain and a side character goes “you’ve got to let her go” I never find paragraphs on tumblr about how the hero should have kept acting like a villain and that side character was the real bad guy.

It’s just that the Jedi don’t struggle with it. The Jedi already practice attachment. They’re already at peace. And since Anakin has been a Jedi for so long and has given no real indication of struggling (I mean they don’t know about his secret wife), they just tell him to practice attachment and think that’s enough. Bc he should already know.

And when people say they shouldn’t have expected this of Anakin bc he wasn’t raised a Jedi… the Jedi are not the only ones who don’t act on attachment. The first person to explain attachment in the movies is Shimi Skywalker. She lets Anakin go and live a better life bc she is not attached to him. She tells him to not look back. This is the woman who raised Anakin. He was raised in a no-attachment household. He has no excuse. He was always taught about attachment. He knew what he was doing was wrong. He did it anyway.

Anakin was not confused by attachment. And neither is the audience really. There are so many stories about how attachment is bad, Lucas just calls it by its name. People choose not to like the Jedi bc they don’t find them interesting. Which is fine I suppose, but if you don’t like the Jedi bc the sith aesthetic is more your speed, just say that. Stop pretending you don’t understand a very common moral conflict.

#pro jedi #star wars #jedi #jedi order #in defense of the jedi #attachment

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twin-suns-on-tatooine · 5 months

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youtube

I watched this video on the Jedi by The Magical Carpet Company and I think it provides some really good information on the Jedi’s beliefs and how it ties back to Buddhism and how their ideologies are not toxic and restrictive

#star wars #jedi #jedi order #pro jedi #jedi appreciation #in defense of the jedi #Youtube #Idk if anyone is going to see this but I wanted to share #This vid was like a breath of fresh air omg

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david-talks-sw · 1 year

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When a Star Wars writer engages with the material but not the narrative.

I'm writing a long post about the Jedi and the clone troopers and there's a whole section that I had to remove because it was too long:

Karen Traviss' take on the Jedi and the clones.

I already wrote about why Karen Traviss' take on the Jedi and Yoda doesn't track with what George Lucas had established in his narrative of the Prequels. Since then, I've been able to do more research.

It's no secret that one of the reasons Traviss listed for criticizing the Jedi in the Expanded Universe books she wrote is their treatment of the clones (or at least what she understood it to be).

In 2008, she wrote a now-deleted blog post about it (it was really long, so I'm only including the part relevant to my point, if you want the full context you can look it up, this is old stuff).

So if you ask me, in the above quote, Traviss is essentially doing the equivalent of saying:

"Batman is a psycho elitist who beats up the mentally ill and indoctrinates kids, turning them into child soldiers for his unending crazy vigilante war on crime, and if you can't recognize that then you scare the living crap out of me."

Like... you can argue that, and a couple of comics have argued that.

But by and large, the general consensus is that Batman is a superhero, the Robins are his sons and daughter, and the "mentally ill" are in fact the Joker and Two-Face aka mass murderers.

So if you make that argument, that's you applying your real-life values and conclusions to a narrative that deliberately doesn't acknowledge those points, in-universe, in order to tell the story it wants to tell.

It's counting on your suspension of disbelief, defined as "the avoidance—often described as willing—of critical thinking and logic in understanding something that is unreal or impossible in reality, such as something in a work of speculative fiction, in order to believe it for the sake of enjoying its narrative."

The Jedi accepting the clones and the clones being slaves isn't a "delicate point". It's barely a point at all!

It's never addressed in the film (because of course it isn't, the Prequels are about Anakin and the Republic, not the clones).

It's only addressed once by Slick, an unreliable narrator, in The Clone Wars.

That's it. Hell, in 2008, when The Clone Wars writer Henry Gilroy was asked to comment on the relationship between clones and Jedi, he explicitly said he'd "rather not get into" that particular point.

I recently got Mythmaking: Behind the Scenes of 'Attack of the Clones' and nowhere is that detail touched on by Lucas at any point.

Nobody wants to touch on that point with a 10ft pole, because it's not relevant to the story.

So while Traviss acknowledges the Jedi are fictional characters, she doesn't follow that thread through to the end by acknowledging that fictional characters don't have free will, they must abide by the story and the whim of the writer.

She's engaging with the material, but refusing to engage with the narrative. She's having her cake and eating it too.

My reason for saying all this is that in the book Star Wars on Trial, she elaborates on her thought process upon discovering this detail.

Shortly before to this, she acknowledges twice that she knew nothing about Star Wars, beside seeing the original films in her youth.

Another writer who saw the new films and saw Mace Windu argue against there being a war...

... the worry on his face at the prospect of the Jedi being thrown at the Separatists...

... and the sheer melancholy on Yoda's face upon announcing the Clone War had begun...

... might have instead wondered how the Jedi, so opposed to war, could've ended up being generals.

Because while we don't see the Jedi openly protest the use of the clones in the film... they're not exactly giddy about it, either. All they can do is watch powerlessly as it gets voted by the Senate.

"The Jedi are there. But the Jedi aren't really allowed to be involved in the political process. They're there, but they can't suddenly step up and say, "No, no. You can't do that." They have to let the political process go." - George Lucas, Attack of the Clones, Commentary #2, 2002

We also don't see them take on the role of generals, either.

We only see them begrudgingly lead troops on Geonosis, specifically.

But they're not referred to as "generals" yet.

Another writer might have imagined a scene where after Geonosis, Mace Windu talks to Palpatine thinking the Jedi will go back to their roles as diplomats, and that what we saw in Attack of the Clones was a one-time thing to save Obi-Wan, but Palpatine politely goes:

"Ha! No. Didn't you hear? The Senate was so impressed by your performance on Geonosis that they voted to make you all generals in the GAR. Now, get back to the front."

Another writer might've elected to write them having that "big moral debate" she mentions.

Instead, Traviss immediately jumps on the "Jedi are elitists" train.

Because her personal experience with the military makes her sympathize with the clones and her personal belief is that - while the story may frame the Jedi as "the good guys" - nobody is that good a guy, real life people aren't that pure and selfless. There's gotta be something off about them and aHA! That's what it is!

That's her choosing to take that line of thought instead of one more in-line with the story, because she perceives it as unrealistic. But like... Star Wars isn't real life, it's a fairy tale.

That's like saying:

"The hunter in Little Red Riding Hood commits animal cruelty by cutting the Wolf open. He should've let nature take its course, the wolf earned that meal fair and square. If you think the hunter should've saved Red Riding Hood and her Grandma, then clearly you're the kind of monster who thinks one life is worth more than others."

... no?

The story's narrative clearly portrays the wolf as the villain of the tale and frames the Hunter saving Red Riding Hood as a good thing.

Disagreeing with that narrative is absolutely fine, but anybody who acknowledges the wolf is the bad guy in the story isn't automatically an animal hater and/or a bad person. Just because you say "the wolf is the villain" doesn't mean that you think that, in real life, killing wolves for shits and giggles is good.

Conversely, the narrative of the Prequels asks you to suspend your disbelief and not consider the implications that having a clone army entails. Because the use of clones doesn't have a direct impact on either Anakin or the Senate's stories.

Edit: I finished the post this one here originally spun out of!

You can find it here:

#Karen Traviss #clone troopers #jedi order #in defense of the jedi

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jedi-enthusiast · 9 months

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Call me crazy, but I know for a fact that I would not want a romantic relationship if I was a Jedi.

If I lived somewhere where I was a part of a community of people that I considered my mentors, my friends, my family; if I lived somewhere where I was encouraged to learn, to travel, to help people, to enjoy life as it is, and better myself; if I lived somewhere where I was supported and loved and cared for by the community, and I did the supporting, the loving, the caring for other people in the community as well; if I lived somewhere where it wasn't constantly implied, or sometimes outright stated, that my worth was tied to me marrying a man, popping out children, and making money...

...if I was a Jedi, I can honestly say that the thought of pursuing a romantic relationship probably wouldn't cross my mind at all---not unless I met someone specific whom I felt that sort of connection with, but even then, I probably wouldn't give up being a Jedi to be with them because I'd feel more fulfilled as a Jedi than I would in a romantic relationship.

I honestly don't understand the assumption that the Jedi are miserable because they can't get married, I really don't.

If you feel like you wouldn't be able to be fulfilled without a romantic partner, then that's fine! Everyone's different! We all have different wants and needs! But just accept that you wouldn't be fulfilled without a romantic relationship and stop acting like it's impossible for anyone else to feel differently.

The Jedi all seem perfectly happy as they are.

#star wars #sw prequels #pro jedi #pro jedi order #jedi appreciation #jedi order appreciation #in defense of the jedi

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short-wooloo · 5 months

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The Jedi are an aro/ace culture that live happy and fulfilling lives and people hate them for it

People steeped in amatanormativity can't stand the idea that people don't want/need romance and can not only be content without it, but in fact very happy without romance

And thus they hate the Jedi, because an entire culture (even a fictional one) that is aro/ace-normative is an affront to them

#amatanormativity #wooloo-writes #wooloo writes #star wars #sw #pro jedi #in defense of the jedi #jedi culture #ace #asexual #asexuality #aromantic #aromantism #the jedi are ace #aphobia #aro/ace #aroace #the jedi are aro

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nateofgreat · 1 month

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"What's wrong with the Acolyte being Jedi critical? It's okay to criticize them since they have a monopoly on the Force don't they?"

Okay, let me break this down.

1: The Jedi do not have a monopoly on the Force.

Say, remember the Nightsisters of Dathomir? The dark side cult that the Jedi tolerate. They even go there to negotiate in the Clone Wars without making any threats to their continued existence. The only time they ever come into conflict is when they leave Dathomir to mess with someone else.

They're not the only ones either. The media doesn't focus on it much, but there are dozens of different Force-based organizations in SW (Legends and Disney canon) that the Jedi Order coexists with. There's also the simple fact that the parents of Force sensitive children can simply decline the Jedi's offer which would indicate that there are people in the Galaxy with the Force who live independently from the Jedi.

As it happens the only organization the Jedi are constantly fighting are the Sith and for darn good reasons.

2: What's wrong with being critical of the Jedi?

Let's not split hairs here. The "criticism" the Jedi get nowadays almost always seems to end with, "and that's why they deserved to be exterminated down to the children via Order 66." So, pro-Jedi fans are a bit on guard when they hear that a project is "Jedi critical."

Now, in theory, there's nothing wrong with characters in-universe having disagreements with the Jedi way or having criticisms of them. However, despite the show's claim to not be about "good vs evil" I think it's VERY likely to posit that the Jedi are wholly in the wrong and to blame for the conflict in some manner. While downplaying the actions of the villain on account of them being a victim.

Why do I think that? Because the trailer.

3: "This isn't about good or evil. It's about power and who's allowed to use it."

Right at the climax of the trailer is this line. Which spells pretty clearly that the show is saying that just, doesn't matter if the Jedi are good, because they're also powerful and influential in their own regard. So in the show's mind that means they're the problem.

They might offer a halfhearted condemnation of the serial killer murdering them for no reason but chances are they'll suggest that they're not really the problem: that the Jedi are for being powerful. I've even seen quotes floating around saying that show will ask the question "what if the Sith are really just the underdogs?" when they go around blowing up planets.

As for the question itself. It's likewise silly as the Jedi don't actually persecute other Force traditions or force everyone to join them. They don't even force you to stay once you've joined. So it doesn't seem like they're attempting to control the Force at all. Meanwhile, the Sith want to dominate the Galaxy and either exterminate or enslave any opposing traditions.

So the question itself is self-defeating.

Oh and while I'm here...

4: There is no "endless cycle"

Slightly off-topic but it comes up a lot as a defense of the anti-Jedi mindset. It goes something like, "The Jedi perpetuate an endless cycle of war because the Sith keep coming back!"

First off, it's not the Jedi's fault that some lunatics keep popping back up to try and control the Galaxy. All they do is stop them every time they do.

Secondly, the "cycle" only exists because new books keep getting written. Stories need conflict and thus the Sith are revived over and over again.

Thirdly, please someone try to tell me that this could be avoided if the Jedi let their members marry or something.

And fourthly, the cycle's honestly not that bad because the Jedi just win every time and restore peace to the Galaxy for a long period.

#anti the Acolyte #Acolyte critical #the Acolyte critical #Star Wars #The Jedi #Pro Jedi #In defense of the Jedi #the Sith #the Acolyte Trailer

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