no bc it’s so funny to me that canonically we have seen mike look repelled by girls/references to them more times that we’ve seen will (canonically gay) be uninterested/repelled by girls

like sure, Will rejects the girl in Lenora + wants a day free of girls (which seems to also be mostly tied to the fact that will associates girls with not being able to spend time with his friends which IS true in s3 even with sexualities aside), but mike?

Mike canonically:

-looked visibly disturbed/grossed out when dustin was talking about phoebe cates

-made a more disturbed face when El kissed him at the end of s3 than he did while literally holding an inter-dimensional snot slug in s2

-took his girlfriend’s hands off of him while she kissed him

-could not to kiss his girlfriend in s4 without wearing sunglasses

-stood in front of the word “women,” while looking upset and talking about “bullshit media propaganda”

-other examples I’m too tired to grab rn but will put in my full gay mike writeup

like will is absolutely not interested in girls, but the writers show that by not putting him in very many scenarios with girls in any sort of romantic way (ie, it’s just total apathy towards girls in a romantic sense) whereas with mike, the writers chose to put him into those romantic situations with girls but also chose to make him look actively upset by these interactions, rather than just apathetic.

like we don’t have a scene of Will’s face when Dustin mentions Phoebe Cates- because it’s a literal representation of his apathy, the show isn’t even SHOWING us Will’s reaction because he simply does not care. it’s the epitome of apathy. but we DO see Mike’s reaction because the show is showing us his active dislike of affection from women/his active lack of attraction towards women. like we aren’t just Not Seeing It due to apathy like we are with will. We are being explicitly shown that mike Does Not Like it.

and imo (like I’m gonna write in my analysis), this is due to the difference in Will and Mike’s upbringings and the difference in how heteronormativity affects them and how Will is more accepting of his sexuality and less affected internally by heteronormativity compared to mike and how therefore will doesn’t feel the same pressure to BE attracted to women because his sexuality is framed as an attraction to men rather than a lack of attraction to women (ie lonnie and the bullies target will for being gay and verbatim call him gay a queer whereas for people like Ted towards mike, it’s jabs about a LACK of girls around him, Ted doesn’t make fun of Mike being around Will or call him gay/queer, he pokes fun at mike for NOT being around girls) and how even the viewer’s pov of Mike’s sexuality, which is inherently queer by nature, is still put through a heteronormative lens and framed as lack of attraction to women rather than active attraction to men (even though he IS attracted to men)/how Will is rarely shown to lack attraction to women (even though he absolutely does) but his interest in me /being called gay is brought up repeatedly.

We DO see evidence of an active attraction towards men for Mike just like how sometimes (like the girl in Lenora), we DO as we evidence of a LACK of attraction towards girls for Will. But usually it’s us seeing active attraction towards dudes for Will (ie I don’t mean him staring at men gayly 24/7 but I do mean things that are overt references to being gay rather than overt references to not being attracted to women, things like the Alan Turing poster, things like him being called gay slurs, things like him being bullied specifically FOR seeming gay) and also seeing a lack of attraction towards girls for Mike. (Ie mike still shows us hints of being attracted to guys just like Will shows us hints of being actively repelled by girls but for Mike it’s usually us being shown an active dislike of girls (in a romantic sense not a misogyny sense) rather than Will who is shown to have the active interest in men more often. They’re equally disinterested in girls and equally interested in men, it’s not that mike is just not really into girls or guys/less into men than Will is, it’s about their upbringing and the differences in the ways in which heteronormativity has affected them + their worldview + how they view themselves)

🔥 BJ Hunnicutt

My opinion on BJ Hunnicutt is whatever one of my mutuals last posted about him. My opinion on BJ Hunnicutt is whatever will get me notes. My opinion on BJ Hunnicutt is whatever Mike Farrell said in whatever his latest interview is because that man has so much love for this show and this character and his longstanding support of the queer community means so much to me and I like to think it meant a lot to Mr. Stiers too if it’s not too parasocial to say so and his interaction with MASH fans even decades later is so kind and sweet and the way he played his character even when the writers admitted he didn’t have enough to work with textually still has such an impact on so many viewers and I think that’s really powerful especially when you think about how it’s contributed to the recent boom in the general MASH fandom economy which no matter what I absolutely consider a net positive to the legacy of the show and to the world in general and even just to me personally given the way that being a part of this small community has changed my own life.

But mostly my opinion on BJ Hunnicutt is just. Whatever.

My endings for Pac and Fit (and ramon too tbh)

First. Pac didn't kill himself. Richas fell from the Redeemer and hatched, flying off to look for other things. (Still stopping to talk to bad before heading out, I like that convo too much). Pac fell with him but he respawns. Him and Mike make the statues together, eventually parting ways. Still forever tied together just not as strong as when they came to the island.

Fit wakes up in Vacuus. Madagio tells him plans have changed, but gives him one more day. Going back to quesadilla Fit searches for anyone, but Ramon is gone, and no one else is there. He writes the letter for Ramon pocketing his goggles, and just as hes about to leave Pac climbs up the ladder (Still in the archer outfit, cause fit needs to see that).

Pac grabs hold of him, Pac sobbing (Fit sheds a tear or two) and they hug for what feels like forever and barely anything at the same time. Fit hears a hum in the back of his head and quickly explains to Pac that his boss is sending him back to the wastelands. Pac is devastated but promises to find him. Right before he gets teleported Fit kisses him. It's not much but he hopes it's enough as he opens his eyes to a wall of lava and craters as far as the eye can see.

Ramon wakes up in the federation with his sisters. Together with the others he finds a way to escape. During or right after the escape is when they hatch flying off to find their parents wherever they maybe. Sunny and Ramon help Em find Tina and Bagi, and all her other moms before going to look for pac, fit, and tubbo.

Ramon and Sunny fly together for weeks. One day across the water they see a ship, nothing big, but big enough for maybe 2-4 people. Going down they see Pac and Tubbo piloting the ship. Despite how much Tubbo *hates* gay people (/j), He wasn't going to leave Fit behind. The four of them find their way to 2b2t, it takes a bit but they do.

And they all reunite on 2b. Fit sees them as Ramon comes running to him, meeting in the middle grabbing his baby and swinging him around. Pac is not far behind as they hug each other through Ramon. A kiss getting cut off by Tubbo's loud gagging and fake barfing. Sunny wraps her arms around Fit's legs, and him placing a hand on her head in a small hug back. Sunny breaks away to drag Tubbo into the hug which he 'reluctantly' agrees to.

Tubbo, Pac, and Ramon work together to find a way to leave 2b2t, Sunny and Fit helping where they can. After sometime they figure it out and they all escape 2b together. Richas and Mike meet up with them at some point. Richas splitting his attention between a lot of parents. Em and her moms visit often, and everyone hangs out and talks to each other all the time. They get their happily ever after

(@yb-cringe I hope this is ok. you said to send you stuff if we wrote anything post cannon / cannon divergent for Fit's lore... and i did that.)

ok so this is a question that i wish was discussed more in other spicy spaces without getting either too careful or too obviously an expression of people's unrealistic fantasies. what do you think attracts will to mike, both in terms of emotional and physical attraction?

there's lots of discussion about mike's attraction to will because that's thought to be what we need more of in the show, and people are happy to talk about will's physical attributes like his ass. but when will's attraction to mike is discussed, its always in the context of emotion and love and friendship becoming romantic, but never physical. there's not much in the way of will's fantasies or him being allowed to have a purely physical aspect to his love for mike, which is so sad to me because it reflects the thematic castration of will in the show (@therainscene did a great post on this about the lack of posters and sexuality in will's room etc).

i personally think the dnd alter egos give lots of hints about why will is emotionally attracted to mike, but at the same time, physicality and presence is a huge part of medieval/roleplay, so Will MUST have thought about mike's physicality in his fantasies, surely?

i wonder if there's not a lot of spec on this because people find there to be a dissonance between finn/mike's body and what they think mike's character represents in the show to a negative degree? whereas for will, even though his muscle development isnt **exactly** in line with will's character, society considers muscles to be a good thing so the change doesnt upset anyone. (not to say muscular men can't be sensitive, but the duffers probably would have chosen him to remain more delicate if they had a choice)

i personally think that mike's awkwardness due to finn's physicality has always been present and a big part of what makes the show so endearing, esp in s1. its only because there's an expectation for blockbuster scale epic fight scenes now, big music, big action, that people start to think mike needs to be this Baddie. I like the idea of him having a moment, but i dont need him to be wielding a sword like a badass and Looking Cool 24/7. Mike isnt traditionally cool, i need him to stay that a nerd lol.

maybe this is also why i think there would be something so powerful about a byler sex scene, because the more awkward/realistic/nerdier the better? it doesnt need to be traditionally sexy, but it WOULD be sexy just because of the fact that it would be mike and will and them getting together is intrinsically sexy.

i hope this makes sense lol sorry for the essay

EXCELLENT TOPIC! So many good points. You're absolutely correct about all of this - there is a definite line it seems, with more focus given to how Mike views Will, versus what made Will develop feelings and attraction to Mike, beyond the "we're best friends and I want you in my life forever"-ness of it all. I love talking about what Mike loves about Will, but let's hype up the other side of this coin.

This may sound so odd, but I genuinely think sometimes it's forgotten in general spaces that Will is gay? And what that actually means. Like he's a gay guy. Who is attracted to men and ultimately wants to be intimate with men (even if in present time, this want is being internally and externally denied). And Mike is a man (big juicy can of worms re: the gnc debate, save that for another essay, but I think my stance is visible between the lines here) and Will wants him. We all saw how Will looked at Mike in the desert. Dirty, white t-shirt probably transparent in spots from sweat, heaving breath as he did all the work shoveling for his boy bestie. Will doesn't have to lift a finger. Will gets to pretend to move several grains of sand around. Will looks at Mike with lust in his eyes. That is the boy he's grown up with and had been crushing on as a kid, that's the guy he's fallen in love with. And Mike has grown up. Still awkward, but developing into someone that Will not only wants to spend forever with, but wants intimately.

I like to imagine them as kids, maybe around the age they are introduced to us as in s1. What are they, 12? It's been awhile, but I remember being 12. I remember my first crushes, and they happened even earlier. Will has several male friends - each with their own appealing attributes. I think any of the party could be cute to a young, sexually confused nerd. But Will crushes on Mike. His first friend, the face he can imagine perfectly when he closes his eyes, able to draw him from memory because our boy is an artist. Little Will, drawing in sketchbooks from the early years. Why is it so important that he gets the shape of Mike's lips just right? Why are his eyes the best eyes he's ever drawn? Why does he spend so long perfecting a technique to capture the dark swoops of his best friend's hair? He's caught himself staring too long at Mike's mouth on occasion. He's caught himself suppressing a shudder when Mike's arm is so casually thrown around him, holding him close. He smells like a boy. He likes that a lot more than whatever girls douse themselves with. Uh oh.

Mike is not conventionally attractive. Neither is FW, either. Not to say he's bad looking (I find him very very attractive), but honestly - he's different. He's not like the cookie cutter Ken, the action figure, the Hollywood poster boy. He's got unique features and is awkward in his own skin. I don't think girls (and closeted guys) at Mike's school are falling at his feet. "I'm not exactly Mr. Popular." But they still look. As opposed to Jason, the All-American Juxtaposition. Jason - classically and cliche-handsome, the prototype boyfriend for the prototype cheerleader. If Will was at Hawkins High that year, I'm sure he'd give Jason a passing glance. He's an attractive man. Will's heart can belong to one and his eyes can appreciate attractive people in his vicinity. But Mike. Mike. Slightly taller, his protective personality bleeding into his physicality. I can see Will being into the protectiveness as a physical manifestation. Mike can maneuver him, can probably hug him tight and lift him up. He's not some action hero, or a muscled heartthrob but he's not as pathetic as fanon so pretends. I don't think he's gonna be an over powered badass by any means, but he can wield a sword and try and even if he's not that great at it. He's not hesitant. And clearly Will knows this. He painted it. He's into it. Mike, able to lead them into battle. Mike, awkward but endearing and strong. Mike with his big hands and lean muscles and that mouth that Will's eyes are drawn to like magnets and he hopes he's not as guiltily obvious as he feels when he watches his best friend orbit around him.

He may hide his attraction to men, with no posters of them on his walls. Diverting his eyes when he notices an attractive man in public. But he has music and cinema. Albums and magazines and movies. Mike looks more like the men in his favorite bands than the men playing professional sports. Bowie is so much cooler. He's odd, he's different. He's hot. Will likes the unconventional and he likes the familiar things that make him feel good and safe. Mike makes him feel safe. Oh, how he wants Mike to make him feel good.

Will had a crush on his best friend, when he first started being plagued with the realization that boys were cute. Will fell in love and when he re-met his best friend in the airport - his friend has grown up hot. He's pissed off and heartbroken that they haven't reached out to each other more, but he can't keep his eyes off Mike. He's dreamed about him and sketched him from memory so many times before Spring Break - but in the flesh? Everything and more. Will wants him.

I really don't like how terms meant for adult relationships keep getting applied to children. It happens a lot with the Mike/Will/El dynamic. I think it's often being done by really young parts of the fandom trying to sound more mature or trying to legitimize the Mike/El relationship. But it's really problematic and overlooks a lot of what's going on here. Some of it is obviously absurd - like calling Will a home wrecker. This term is for married couples and they are fresh out of middle school. Mike and El don't have a home to wreck. But some of it just simplifies the issue at hand - like saying Mike and Will are emotionally cheating. This implies there is an affair happening and they are young teens so it just sounds silly. Affairs are for adults. Not to mention that Mike and El's relationship is not deep. It's a silly middle school relationship that basically only qualifies as a relationship because they say that's what it is. They don't have the dynamics of a romantic relationship. No one is cheating here. Mike and Will are two scared kids who have heard their whole lives that being gay is bad and wrong. We know Will at least got bullied his whole life for this, both at school and by his father. It's likely Mike was too, but if he wasn't he still heard Will getting abused for this through their whole childhood. They've been taught their feelings are wrong. So they are pretending not to have them or trying very hard to ignore them. Mike and El are only together because they both think they are supposed to and they are trying to be normal. They want to fit in with the other kids. This doesn't mean they don't care about each other but there is a big difference between that and having a serious relationship. Mike and Will have known each other since childhood and have always had an emotional bond and close relationship. It didn't just start suddenly when El came into the picture. It's just how their relationship is. So Mike isn't suddenly emotionally cheating on El. He's acting the same way he's always acted with Will. Nothing about their dynamic has changed. There are a lot of implications when terms like this are used but my main problem is the one that says El's feelings are the only one's that matter. As if Mike and Will are horrible people for having feelings when El exists. They aren't and Mike isn't using her any more than she's using him. They both want to feel normal and use this relationship to accomplish that. There is this outcry of "what about El" whenever people bring up Byler and it's not ok. El's feelings are important but they aren't the only ones that are and no one is required to suffer to make her happy. She also doesn't love Mike or want to be in a relationship with him so it doesn't even matter. But Mike and Will are allowed to have feelings for each other even when Mike and El are together. There is this idea that they can't because it will somehow ruin the "purity" of Mike and Will's dynamic and this is so, so problematic. There aren't always clear lines drawn when one relationship ends and another starts. It in no way means that peoples feelings in the second relationship are less legitimate. No relationship is perfect and expecting them to be is unfair and unrealistic. It doesn't make their relationship less serious because Mike was in another one first (I would argue he was with Will first anyway just because he's known him longer).

A label doesn't need to be attached to this dynamic at all. They can just be confused and scared kids who are figuring out how to navigate their feelings. That's all it is. There is no need to judge them for not navigating this perfectly. No one ever does.

mmm what the fuck?

how am i supposed to live like a normal functioning person after experiencing the full range of human and Inhuman emotions?

thea i love u i promise but i also want to kill u in the most cruel way possible.

i was trying to read 32k words one hour before the work and failed Miserably 😭 i only get through driving lesson part. can u believe i had to do actual work the entire day instead of reading my gay fanfiction? 💔heartbreaking misogynistic And homophobic if u ask me.

anyway. i know im going to forget something. it always happens and then im too shy to send other asks so let hope it doesn’t happen this time.

driving lesson.

don’t worry about ur manual transmission description. i’ve changed three instructors in the span of year and a half and all three of them told me different things. i didn’t notice any Big Serious issues that would be at odds with driving mechanic.

to the other news. will sucks 😭😭 not his fault Obviously. he’s naturally anxious and tbh mike didn’t give him any hints about how to feel when the car is ready to go. not mikes fault too. i bet he doesn’t even think about this little thing anymore (and cause u don’t know about them either. which is ok don’t worry about it. u probably just need to experience it ti fully understand). i was so happy when will finally manage to get the car going 😭😭 i probably called him baby too.

and then i literally passed out when i saw the mike called Him baby?? first will’s brain in denial made me questioning was it really for him or for the car. cause mike Loves that car i wouldn’t be surprised if he really call it baby from time to time. but then i remembered that we know how mike feels thanks god and i became like 85% sure that it was for will. (i also Run to check playlist right after this line. yeah i found “king of my heart” there. u make the impossible possible cause why am i listening to two of my least favorite reputation songs and genuinely enjoy them?)

i mentally add the keychains to the list of things we need to know more about. but i think it’s cute that they both not only save them but also use them almost daily. and they both choose car keys to hang the keychains on. dare i say soulmates.

*two weeks later*

also i think it’s funny they consider each other hot while driving.

and of course mike is obsessed with old expensive cars!!

are the malls in the us exactly dying? my office building is near the mall and i can guarantee u that in my country they r super alive.

ok i might be wrong but i think that the deleted scene is from bookstore part idk.

i think it’s cute that they trust each other enough to allow to choose as significant item as journals concerning that they really picky about them.

and i loved that mike blushed over a simple kiss 🫶🏻🫶🏻

(i feel like i want to catch up on everything and it’s killing me cause i write down one thing and immediately remember the other 😭)

THEY WERE SO BOYFRIENDS IN DINER!!! i don’t think i will ever recover from how cute they r and how much they actually like each other (and how single i am. as the classic said “when someone will prey on my neurodivergency….” and so on and so forth). i love that everyone can see it and im obsessed that boys don’t even want to deny it. i think a lot about the fact that mike said that they middle school sweethearts like he regrets about the missed opportunities (but also he doesn’t regret cause the thing they have now (at this exact moment. cause i still have bad feeling) is like that Because of years of semi-friendship and rivalry and unsaid confessions).

and i think even more about the fact that mike didn’t want to talk about his pretentious ivy league college. squinting so hard and taking a lot of notes (in fact writing paragraphs of analysis to my friends who has no idea what acswy).

the photobooth scene!!! omg i can’t believe u almost deleted it all??? suni is our hero! lots of hugs and kisses and thanks to them!!

i can’t believe mike talked about showing pictures to their friends in one minute and literally kissing will on them in the other. i love them they r so silly and in love and can’t get enough of each other. u can feel how close they become and that the air is thick with the newfound (and rediscovered) feelings. and they can’t live without touching and the hold hands constantly!!! all day long!!! and it’s not enough!!! and oh. i think it wasn’t the last time we saw pictures (squinting even harder).

the way max immediately cut the bullshit and asked about swearshirt. i need to know what lucas wrote to mike.

he likes him!!!

i love the difference between mikes “i know i like him but i won’t do anything about it” and wills “i need to kiss him to death right now!”

and the kiss on the backseat of mikes stupid mustang!! we were all waiting for it!

i think i reread and memorized the last part and in still shaking whenever i think about “nervous” part. mike makes will nervous!! and he makes him shake and do stupid stuff like kissing and blushing and thinking to add heart next to his name and call him his boyfriend!!! omg!!

“I’ve got you, baby” WHO WILL GET ME??? im the one who is going insane??? it’s so tender. my boys 💔💔💔

(the second time. my eyes r hurting from squinting that much. and i feel like we’ll have “el’s not stupid” kind of scene in the flashbacks)

this character hits so hard!! i’ve never doubted any of u but i can see why this one is one of ur favorite thea!

thank u so much for ur hard work. if i could draw i would to the whole ass animation of this chapter (and any other too).

love u. thank u for reading all this rambling

mmm what the fuck is RIGHT alya bc this is how i feel every time i read one of ur lovely essay comments. bc whaqt the fuck. why do u want me to CRY ALL THE TIME. (i guess it's fair considering we are making u cry with the fic itself but still . Rude)

you are so real for trying to read 32k in one hour and also so me . rly fucked up and cruel that you would have to work (even tho u threatened to murder me)...i hope you are freed from these perils Soon. don't ever be too shy to send more asks tho every ask from you is a BLESSING and a TREAT!!! EVEN WHENTHEY ARE LACED W THREATS!!!!!!!!!!!! and also tysm for validating my manual driving lesson description bc fr every video i watched was different and i was so stressed but it's FINE. ALYA SIGNED OFF ON IT SO NO ONE ELSE MATTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!! DEAL W IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! will Does suck and that's one thing we can all agree on 💗💗💗 i was going to include a bit about likee what the engine Sounds like bc i know it sounds different when you're ready to switch gears but honest tbhly the driving scene alone is like 12k and i was super losing steam by the time i thought of it so i didn't <3 he is def a baby and mike def refers to his car as baby so he is right to be confused. but it WAS for him!! we actually aren't 100% sure of mike's feelings Yet (ch08 is meant to be the precipice of a realization, not an actual one) but obviously . we do have a pretty good idea of how he does feel. teehee. also i am glad you are enjoying komh now bc wtf......how is it one of your least faves................i support you but i am also judging u a little alya .

i think keychains will be included in one of the companions :o) also OBVIOUSLY they find each other hot while driving. they're both annoying and down bad 🙄🙄

malls here are super dying!! i think the only ones that aren't are ones in Major Cities (there's two nearby me that are pretty popular, but the other ones are mostly closed, and it's definitely been a phenomenon in the us over the last few years thanks to online shopping)!! the deleted scene is actually from the driving scene, but the bookstore scene Feels shorter bc i was truly at the point where i had nothing left to give when writing it (it was the last part of ch09 to be written), so it definitely suffered from that. if we ever do Huge post-mortem edits once acswy is over, i might go back and add to it, or write a deleted-scene-type companion, but tht's the tea w the bookstore scene <3

the diner scene was SOOOO fun to write and it had me blushing frfr. i answered this in another ask but the middle school sweethearts comment was Definitely the most insane thing that i thought of for this chapter and to me it was for sure the nail in the coffin for will of like damn. ok. he's Serious abt this. bc i think with their #history that will has trouble admitting even to himself that he likes mike, and so he'd need to feel pretty certain of how mike feels first, and after processing the middle school sweethearts comment later in the car that's what made him realize like oh damn. i Do like him. SO MUCH. and we all nodded and patted his back and said yeah baby we know. but what you described mike thinking is absolutely exactly how he feels 💗 very reminiscent and wistful, even.

LOL LITERALLY THIS HAS BEEN A UNANIMOUS COMMENT ACROSS THE BOARD OF "THANK GOD FOR SUNI" (INCLUDING MYSELF). to Explain the way i was feeling about it -- i did not initially mean to have that be a Spicy make out moment! it was supposed to read more along the lines of the thrift store scene, or even the kiss after will finished driving the mustang, so very sweet and soft and Romantic. it just didn't come out that way once i was actually writing it, and so i was nervous that i was toeing the line too heavily, or tht it was out of place with the rest of the vibe i had constructed for the chapter. a combination of suni (and abby, who got early access and acted as our second beta) being adamant that it Did fit and worked well, and me being too pressed for time/not having enough energy to rewrite that saved it from the deleted scene graveyard <3 thank god fr. they are both so fucking stupid.

the entiiiiire realization scene up from will realizing he likes mike to the very end of the chapter is my favorite thing that i have ever written i think 💗 i am just so happy with the way it turned out, especially with it being at the point in the fic that it's at!! it felt rly right for will :') also mike calling him baby!!! that was such a last minute decision but i'm so glad i went for it!! the original line was "i've got you, yeah?" but baby hit So much harder so shout out to editing thea for making that change 🤸 will wants to add a heart next to mike's name in his phone SOOOO BAD!!! WHEN WILL HE GET TO!!!!!!!!!!!

your second ask SO TRUE SO REAL. TEEHEE AND MWAHA AND SO ON AND SO FORTH. also you're so right jonathan is so fucked up for stealing steve from will like that 🙄

tytyty as always for your novel length comment alya 💗 really and genuinely and truthfully the thought of getting to read ur reactions is one of the most exciting parts of uploading a chapter!! i eagerly await all of ur other reactions <3333

Ok, since you were friendly with bylers, I want to actually know your own interpretation from some scenes that we as bylers sometimes use as bylers proofs, but mileven ones.

*I am just asking this on anon because the last time I tried to be friendly with a mileven off anon and just ask something, I received a wave of hate from a lot of milevens on my asks*

Ok, your thoughts about:

Mike claiming that his relationship with El is love at first sight, when the duffers made clear that they don't believe in it and they made fun of that trope with Argyle and Eden (while Mike is really annoyed by it behind them)

What do you think about the difference between mileven break up scene and byler rain fight, with Will being devastated and El hanging out and being really happy with Max after. Why do you think they decided to joke about it even when all other couples that broke up had been taken serious, like stancy.

About the fact that they made Max assure El that Mike would be at her door crying for forgiveness and at the same episode Mike goes to Will's door instead to scream "I'm sorry" and actually accepting that what he said to Will was wrong instead of blaming other as he did to El ("Max corrupting her" instead of understanding that she is mad because he lied).

Are you satisfied with the fact that the duffers used Will's feelings to save Mike and Els relationship?

The fact that El NEVER once said something that she likes about Mike or complimented him or tried to know what he likes or his interests, what leads to Mike to think that to her, he is just a random nerd and she is going to leave him for whatever reason (his words before Will's speech to him)

The fact that for some reason, Mike hides from Will what's the real problem in their relationship and says to Will that he need to say something but if he said "that thing" he would lose El, even tho he just needs to say "ily" and there is no reason to believe he is going to lose her, since she asked him for it.

Why do you think Mike acted the way he did with Will at the airport if it's confirmed that Mike don't know and don't even suspects that Will is gay nor in love with him?

What do you think about the writers choice to have a focus on Els memories with Max with Max saying "there is more to life than stupid boys" right after the monologue and El and Mike aren't talking after what's suppose to save their their relationship problems.

There are more things I would like to ad but those ones I really want to know what you think. I'm asking you this because you look like you are going to awser seriously without being bitter about it. Also, if you want to know bylers thoughts about all of this, let me know, I would explain to you our interpretation of it.

(I'm sorry you've gotten hate from people, that sucks.)

1) I don't know if it was actually love at first sight, I think Mike just said that because he was trying to say anything to save El. I do think he truly loves her, but he fell in love with her more gradually throughout season 1, not at first sight. And in hindsight, sometimes when you really love someone, it feels like it was immediately when you met them even if it wasn't. So Mike might have just felt like he loved her immediately and said it that way in a high pressure situation, that doesn't mean it's completely accurate to what actually happened, memories can be unreliable too. And the Duffers say lots of things, and sometimes they are inconsistent. That happens, they're human. Also, where's the proof that they said this? I think you're probably talking about that tweet with "wrong answers only", but how do you know the Duffers wrote it and not a different employee who believes differently than them? And I don't think Argyle and Eden were making fun of the trope, they hooked up. Even if it was meant to make fun of the trope, that doesn't make it untrue for Mileven. But like I said before, I do think he was being hyperbolic.

2) I think it was because they were more making fun of Mike specifically than Mileven/their relationship. And S3 was playing on the summer blockbuster sort of thing, so it was kind of different than the other seasons. And the rain fight was probably from Will's perspective, and so it was trying to portray how he was feeling. Mike was caught off guard by El dumping him and probably didn't really believe it at first, but Will believed everything Mike said and took it to heart. So I think that's the difference. Additionally, the Mileven breakup wasn't meant to be serious because they just got back together later that season, and still obviously liked each other while broken up, wanting to get back together. The break up wasn't serious because it wasn't supposed to be taken seriously, they still acted like a couple and loved each other, and they got back together pretty quickly.

3) Again, because the break up wasn't serious, they both knew they would get back together. And Mike did apologize to El and tell her the truth later, he was just scared because Hopper literally threatened him. What was he supposed to do when a grown man threatened him? And of course Mike went after Will because he was visibly upset. El ran off giggling with Max, and Mike was surprised and confused about what was happening, so he needed some time to process it and vent to his friends. The urgency in the scenes are completely different. Mike could tell he really hurt Will, but El was fine, so why would he run after her? They were different circumstances, so I don't think it's really fair to compare them.

4) Yeah, I think it makes sense for the time period. He substituted El's name in place of his to be able to get out his feelings without outing himself. He doesn't know how people might react to finding out about his sexuality, it's the 80s, the height of the AIDS epidemic, he's scared. He just needed to get closure somehow, knowing Mike will never feel the same way about him, in a way that didn't possibly risk his safety. And *Will* didn't fix their relationship, he didn't know what Mike was going to say to El, he just tried to boost his confidence a bit. Everything Mike said to El was his own feelings, and repairing what happened in the Mileven fight earlier that season. Will had no idea what the problem between them was, so he couldn't have directly fixed it, and he didn't, he just helped a tiny bit, like any friend would. So yeah, I think the way it was written makes complete sense.

5) I think when we see them in the show they have a lot going on dealing with all the Upsidedown plot related issues, is there really a good moment for her to start listing everything she likes about him? They're going through literal hell, so of course they aren't just spending time complimenting each other. She said she loves him, he should know that without being given a list of her favourite qualities about him.

6) Mike was scared of losing El, and maybe worried if he said the problem out loud, that would make it feel more real. Will isn't entitled to any information that Mike isn't comfortable sharing with him, and they had drifted apart a lot since S3. Mike is just a 15 year old boy, not all of his decisions necessarily make perfect sense, he wasn't comfortable telling anyone, he struggles to express his feelings.

7) Because they hadn't seen each other in so long, and barely kept in touch. It would be pretty awkward seeing an old friend again after months of trying to call them and not having them reach out. Will could have called Mike, but he didn't, so they drifted apart. Their connection is just a lot weaker than it used to be because of all the things they've been dealing with. Being awkward around a friend you haven't had contact with for a long time is completely normal.

8) That scene was about Max and El specifically, so of course it focused on them. And that line was about how platonic relationships are just as important as romantic ones, they don't have to be mutually exclusive, El can have both kinds, and both are important. Romantic relationships aren't better than friendships, they're equally as valuable, both kinds of love matter and can make El's powers stronger. And Mike and El were talking a little after, he was the only person she talked to at all, so clearly she feels safe to open up to him after all the traumatic stuff she just went through.

So those are my thoughts and interpretations, I don't think any of those events in the show proves anything about Byler.

user elekinetic do you have any tips to spare for outlining fics 😭 i feel like I word vomit any of the concept that I have in my head, and dialogue ,and build off that adding paragraphs as I go and I go so slow bc of it. But ive been trying hard lately to write a list of “scenes” and bullet point the story but yeah.

do you know anything that could help me have an idea of where to go start to finish instead of starting at the random spot I’ve come up with first? I waste so much writing time because I haven’t built a backstory for characters and things like that so i don’t always know how they start the story off, only the situation they’re in. Is that something that could help? Making a list for each character or something? Would love to hear your thoughts thank you! <3

hi! first of all i’m so flattered you asked! to be clear, i am a very slow writer too lmao and i’m relatively new to prose writing, and though in very confident in my understanding of what makes a good story (W screenwriting), i am still figuring out my outlining process. but hey! let’s learn together.

sorry in advance for how long this is. i love talking.

so i basically figure everything out in the outline and write after i feel very good about it. if you have a strong foundation, everything gets a hell of a lot easier. t kind of sounds like your process might be similar to mine, so i’m just gonna explain what i'm doing for my current project.

my key document is my “bible.” i split it up into a couple different sections using page breaks (page breaks my best friend ily page breaks):

pitch/word vomit summary

scene ideas

outline

notes

ok so wtf does that mean.

1. pitch/word vomit summary — explain your concept. bc i've got a film/tv background, im starting off with my logline. (e.g. "after robin learns will is gay, they have a heart to heart in an abandoned video store about insecurity and feeling alone. they learn they're not." sometimes i'll follow that up with a note to myself like, "this fic isn't robin finding out, this is what happens after. starts with her already knowing. will pov, focus on his perception of robin changing. subtly reference toward feelings about mike, dont come out (haha) and say it") then, i write as MUCH of the concept down as i can, like i'm explaining it to a friend. (sometimes i copy and paste rants from dms directly into the document). it can be totally out of order, non-sensical, contradictory. just get as many of your ideas down as possible. you want to be able to come back to this and be like, oh i totally forgot about that. vague chapter summaries, personal notes about themes, whatever you want. i have a list of beats that you find in romantic dramas for inspiration and a paragraph abt ways i want to parallel/subvert s3 of st. just. go ham. 2. scene ideas — this is pretty self explanatory. i take some of the stuff i have in the p/s and flesh it out, or put down new ideas. this is where i'm writing out dialogue in bullet points, or what i want them to be Really Saying. (e.g. "mike: [panics bc he feels seen, tries to flip it back on (redacted) and fails] ") this is for when i can see stuff more clearly or i get out of the shower with a whole exchange in my head. gonna be out of order, a little all over the place. 3. outline — so. this is where you start piecing it together. put the bullet points in order. figure out objective of each scene and what needs to happen to accomplish that goal. figure out pacing, what needs to happen when. this step is where im looking at dialogue and thinking "why does mike say that? why does he feel that way? what needs to happen to get him to this point emotionally?" or looking at scenes and thinking "these are two scenes with people arguing back to back. lets make sure they feel different and give the characters different tactics to get what they want (byler argument where mike is avoiding will vs max argument where max is avoiding lucas. i could use this to highlight similarities and differences in the relationships, but having two scenes with the same tactics back to back might feel repetitive. maybe i move the scenes farther apart or change circumstances. maybe mike and will are having a veiled argument while theyre with a group of friends in a public space and max and lucas' argument is outside max's house.) also asking if conflicts are resolved too quickly, if the miscommunications feel too convenient, if characters disappear or are only around as plot devices. write. troubleshoot. repeat. 4. random notes — everything else that doesnt fit. for me this is literally just taylor swift lyrics (writing the fic vaguely off of a Specific Song that SHOULD BE STREAMED MORE WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE anyway) and links to posts i use as character reference to make sure im staying true to the characters. (remembering will said "i was being a total jerk to el, i deserved it," AND "you're ruining everything, and for what!"/"i wasn't moping!")

i want it to be clear im doing all of this at the same time. im jumping around and pulling new ideas and rearranging as stuff changes. i think the thing that's really hard is that i want to be able to sit down, write the outline, and then move on. but for us scatterbrained writers, you're gonna have to re-outline and readjust like. a thousand times. and that's okay. that's good! it feels tedious as hell but the story is so much better for it.

take your time. let yourself be slow. keep finding holes in your story and fill the world in as you fix them.

here are some more questions i ask myself to make the story better:

What are you trying to accomplish over the course of the story? What is it about? (for the will&robin fic, it was something about feeling seen for the first time.) When you get lost in your story or aren't sure why a scene feels stale, come back to this. is the scene furthering that goal?

What is changing internally for each of your main characters? (yes theyre dating by the end but like. what do they learn.)

Are the side characters people or props? (will pov scene of a party-wide picnic where everyone's talking but will is focused on mike's hands.... where is max's head at in the scene? you don't have to have a super long backstory and she doesn't have to be a big part of the plot, but if she's saying something, figure out why she's saying it. if will is having a heart to heart with el, understand why el is responding the way she is. the scene's goal may be to get will through a breakthrough, but el's circumstances will change in the scene too. figure out how this conversation lands with her. oh, and remember the adults are people too!)

Why is this character saying this/why are they responding this way? (this should answer your "where do i start?" question. start in that random spot and figure out A) why they are there and B) why they are reacting the way they do (see last bullet point).

side note: some of the best advice i ever got was "enter the scene late, exit early." skip the prologue. try starting from that random spot. if it feels like something's missing, figure out exactly what that something is, and go from there

Do the stakes feel high enough?

What do i need to set up to make sure this scene/beat is satisfying as possible? (are will and mike going to have a big argument? oh, so we have to show tension before.... BAM you have another scene to write and your outline is fuller)

i could go on a lot longer but. basically.

i edit while i write. i'm someone who needs a very fucking strong outline and a very fucking clear idea of the story before i can start writing it. i'm putting probably 70-80% of the leg work in at the start so i can focus on making the prose (or script, most of the time) the best it can be.

THAT BEING SAID, this is just the way i do it and i have like. a fic and a half published. im taking my sweet time bc im creatively burned out and this is for fun first and foremost. like i said. i am a Very Slow Writer.

i highly, highly recommend hitting up the ask boxes of writers like @/strangeswift, @/wiseatom, @/astrobei, or @/andiwriteordie. no guarantees on responses bc they are busy ppl with busy lives but i really do think theyre some of the best writers out here right now, and im not just saying that bc they're my friends. abby (strangeswift) and i have been each other's sounding board through a lot of projects and she's almost done with one of her first Big Fics, so its worth asking her about that.

i hope this helps! ah!!

kind of obsessed with the fact you've slowly gotten more blatant with heartstopper hate lmfao😭 it's like. fine to me it's cute but NOTHING SERIOUS IS EVER GOING ON so I gotta be in a really specific mood for it I still haven't watched s2. definitely couldn't be a fixation. and everyone fucking loves it it's the best thing since sliced bread and I'm like. why tho. and then any critique of it is sorta dumbed down to "oh you just don't like how sweet it is but teenagers deserve sweet romance" like ok but why's it gotta be boring though. and too healthy like beyond normal levels of healthy. like this is missing even the usual human levels of miscommunication. and it gets resolved too easy. sorry this was supposed to cut off 4 sentences ago I'm realizing now in your inbox that I apparently have beef with heartstopper

LKSSJJSJS LISTEN listen. I don’t even hate it. truly. I even genuinely enjoyed myself during the nick and Charlie parts bc that’s the part that thought is actually put into. I just hate how much everyone loves it so blindly

honestly my biggest beef with it is that it’s marketed and treated as the most genuine and diverse groundbreaking queer storyline there is when that’s literally so far from true and it really really shows ppls true colors when they think this bc the sapphics and POC are literal props it’s actually absurd for a show that’s supposed to be a safe space for queer ppl

and god do I hate that part of the reason it’s so popular is bc it portrays these queer teenagers as never having a single, physical thought in their entire life. there was this whole plot centered around one single hickey that Charlie had??? and something abt the physical attraction portion of it all, which they did try to show btw, felt disingenuous to me. and I know that’s why it’s so palatable to a mainstream audience and it pisses me off and again it just doesn’t feel genuine. which is ironically one of the main arguments against heartstopper criticism: “it’s not cringe it’s just earnest” when yeah maybe it’s Trying to be earnest but when u look at it from more than a surface level lens it’s not rlly succeeding

and I know the aroace storyline in season 2 with Isaac resonated with a lot of people and I think that’s wonderful, and I actually do think that was something that was done well, but how can you have a storyline around asexuality when you don’t show the contrast in how it is being an allosexual queer person. there was a whole lot of romantic attraction going on but even more tip toeing around the sexual attraction aspect. and I don’t expect it to be like sex education for example in terms of the focus on sex obv , but the lack of acknowledgment of that aspect of the queer experience paired with how much the uwu wholesomeness of it all is played up rlly rubs me the wrong way. once again: it feels dishonest

I was actually talking about this with one of my mutuals the other day and they pointed out that it is very plain that alice olseman did not consult a single queer man in the writers room. and if someone can prove this wrong be my guest but I rlly don’t think the whole physical attraction component would have been done so badly had an actual queer man been on the team. feels kind of like back in summer 2022 when byler shippers would literally shun and harass anyone who even implied that Will’s feelings for Mike probably included physical attraction meanwhile Noah Schnapp himself was making jokes about it bc he’s an actual gay teenager.

not gonna even get into right now how Tara and darcy felt even more like props this season than in the last one and I didn’t even like watching their scenes bc the writing itself felt performative. that’s a whole other post.

and man, wouldn’t it have been so nice if there had actually been people of color in that writers room. On a purely surface level heartstopper has a very diverse cast but once again, peel away even one layer and you realize it’s a bunch of tokenism, which brings me full circle back to my original point: you can’t say it’s peak representation and diversity when it’s whitewashed as hell and doesn’t gaf abt sapphics despite literally being written by one. guess she chose her whiteness over her queerness even when writing a queer story which wowwww sooooo original.

okayyyy anyways did NOT mean to write a whole essay but u discovering ur own beef reminded me of mine lmaooo

all of this was to say that basically I’m not gonna pretend I didn’t enjoy myself during parts of the show, and I don’t wanna shame ppl for liking it that is not at all what I’m trying to do here, it has its own place in queer media and if a show like this came out in like 2010 it would be groundbreaking despite its issues (but again it’s literally 2023 do fucking better) , but I take issue with people treating it like something it’s not and with the amount of love it gets I feel like I have to be really loud about my criticism of it, especially bc usually the criticism of the show that gets any attention isn’t even slandering it for the right reasons and like. if ur gonna hate on something queer and popular do it right

oh and heartstopper writers? maybe try speaking with an actual teenager once in your life before writing their dialogue they do not fucking communicate that well

okay I’m done now finally 🫡

Mike is going to be the one who verbalize his sexuality.

Ok, hear me out. I think the duffers are trying to show different ways to come out. We have:

Robin: Open up to Steve about having a crush on a girl that was into him. It's clear that she is a lesbian, even when she doesn't verbalize it.

Vicky: Had a boyfriend but they show us that she has romantic feelings for Robin too, implying that she is bi.

Will: We know his character since S1 and we are seeing him being bullied with homophobic slurs, his relationship with Lonnie, Hopper thinking that when he disappeared it was a hate crime, we see that he is not interested in girls more than once (snowball, the girl in his class). He confess to Mike and it's clear that he is in love with him, even using El as a cover and we have that conversation with Jonathan. A family member who made it clear that he is loved no matter what, implying that he is aware of Will's sexuality.

So, we have a "coming out" scene with Robin confirming a crush in a girl, we have Vicky implying that she likes Robin back and we have Will confessing his feelings and Jonathan making clear that he knows he is gay.

Now about Mike. Most of the GA doesn't get the clues of the lack of interest that Mike has in girls because of his relationship with El. They doesn't get why Mike can't say ily and that his relationship with Will is the complete opposite of his relationship with her. They don't understand that a lot of gay people has relationships with the opposite gender before finding out his sexuality. So, Mike is perfect to be the one to verbalize his sexuality, coming out to someone and making it clear that he is queer.

I think that even if Mike have a lot of internalized homophobia, he verbalizing it is going to be in character.

Unexpected Byler Proof

Netflix posted this for the upcoming Stranger Things Day

They chose to put in a lot of key props/costumes/sets from through out the show because everything is supposedly going to get tied together s5. But I’m gonna point out the shit that hints byler endgame and it saving Hawkins s5

First piece of imagery: the rainbow over Hawkins

Now obviously the rainbow is a gay symbol, but it’s also been seen numerous times around Mike/Will. Here's off the top of my head:

s2 Will’s rainbow rocket mentioned in shed scene

s2 Will’s snowball date is wearing a rainbow hair clip

s4 Mike standing in front of the Rainbow connection at Suzie's

s3 Max with rainbow sleeves sitting between Mike and Will

s2 Mike and Will stand in front of rainbow Apple sign in the AV club

s4 Will holding a rainbow rubber band ball when talking to Mike

Also, the lyrics from the never-ending story from s3 go along with this picture's byler saving Hawkins imagery.

"Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds" = Will's secret about being gay, being in love with Mike, and the truth about the painting and his speech will be unveiled to Mike. Mike's secret about not being in love with El and instead with Will will be unveiled to Will and El. Their secrets unfolding will be the first step to defeating Vecna.

"And there upon a rainbow is the answer to the never-ending story" = once Will and Mike confess their secrets, they will become a couple and join together to defeat Vecna and save Hawkins from what feels like to them a never-ending nightmare. Hence, the netflix pic having a big rainbow over the word HAWKINS.

Let’s look at this rainbow over Hawkins a lil zoomed out

The arcade sign, vecna’s clock, a hellfire shirt, and a tiger face within the hawkins highschool sign are in the immediate surroundings of the Hawkins rainbow. All these things correlate with byler saving Hawkins.

The Tiger correlates to Will-- in s4 he had multiple tiger objects in his room. He had a tiger figurine on his dresser, a tiger stuffed animal beside his bed, a tiger picture on his dresser, and another tiger picture behind his easel.

@aemiron-main made this post and @doriandrifting made this post that explains how arcades/games are byler coded. I’m not sure why this piece of byler evidence correlates to byler saving Hawkins, so if anyone wants to figure that out that’s be great!

Vecna’s clock being next to Hawkins just show that vecna is going to be the main threat s5, the person that byler is going to kill.

And let’s look at that Hellfire shirt

It’s got a tentacle/vine going through it with lightening striking it to the right and a demogorgon behind it to the left. I think this Hellfire shirt is Mike’s because 1) he’s the first person shown in the series wearing it 2) unlike Dustin and Eddie who wore shirts and jackets to cover it, Mike wore it as a stand-alone piece. So, the vine going through Mike’s shirt could mean he does indeed get Vecna’s curse s5, and with the demogorgon and lightening surrounding the shirt, it could also mean he gets trapped into the Upside Down similar to Will s1. Maybe when Will and Mike to save Hawkins, they'll be fighting Vecna in the ud because of Will possibly going there to save Mike. From the show, there's proof of Will going to the ud to save Mike; in their last heart-to-heart st4, Will follows Mike to sit together on the upside-down couch.

Second piece of imagery: the dice

Now there’s a couple of things to discuss with these dice but first and foremost I just need to get this out of the way: WE WERE RIGHT AB THE GAME FORESHADOWING S5!!!!!!!!! *throws fist in air victoriously*

Ok let’s get down to business. The 20 is what kills Vecna, not the 11 in the st5 foreshadow game. The fact that they included this dice roll in the pic means that it was important plot-wise. There're already clues from the show that tell us Byler = twenty (here's a link to a previous post I made ab that), but we're focusing on the new evidence this pic brings to the table. The things immediately surrounding the dice should indicate who the 20 is, and the things immediately surrounding the dice is Mike's sunglasses and Will's wizard hat. Something involving Vecna's is again seen next to byler imagery with his rose-door being the only other thing immediately next to the 20 dice. Again, it's hinting that byler is going to kill Vecna.

But let's look at how now Will's imagery is caught up in the vines and Mike's are free-floating. This alludes to Will being caught by Vecna during the battle and Mike having to be the one to save them by confessing his secrets. (EDIT: I should’ve clarified better, but I think this is Will getting trapped by Vecna during their final battle because of the rose door being right next to his trapped hat. When Max was trapped by Vecna in the UD that rose door was always there floating above them in the air.) I've already speculated that this is going to happen considering Mike's seen by Will as "the heart" of the party and has always been the one to save Will in the past (s1 Mike was nice to El which led to her helping them. In s2 he figured out the Mindflayer could spy on them + what he said to Will in the shed scene gave Will strength to tell them how to kill the Mindflayer), but it's nice to see another sign indicating what is to come.

I think that's all the byler saving Hawkins evidence within this pic, but I still think it's batshit crazy that there's any in it to begin with.

Make the Yuletide Gay

I would like to read a fic where Dustin is scheming to get Steve and Robin together during the christmas season. So he keeps trying to trap them with mistletoe but it just hysterically gets worse and worse.

First it's Nancy and Steve which is just super awkward for everyone involved. They share a quick peck that feels bittersweet. they loved each other once, but those feelings have transformed into a solid, lovely friendship.

Then it's Robin and Eddie and they cackle uncontrollably because they are both oh, so gay. Eddie peppers robin with sloppy kisses all over her face everywhere except her lips. Dustin is thinking maybe Eddie likes Robin, but then what about Steve? Steve obviously likes her too.

Unfortunately Joyce and Hopper are next, and of course, they start borderline making out. All of the younger teens are making gagging noises and Dustin momentarily considers giving up completely. He wants to see Steve happy though, so he carries on with his little plan.

When Jonathan and Argyle find themselves under the same mistletoe that same night, they just shrug and kiss. No fuss, no romance. They are basically platonic life partners at this point anyways. It helps that they are high as kites. The kiss makes them both giggle a little.

Things escalate when Nancy and Robin find themselves to be Dustin's next unwitting victims. He watches in rapt confusion as Robin is stammering and wildly blushing while Nancy sweetly kisses her. It's a soft, chaste kiss but zinging with emotion.

People are starting to catch on that someone is messing with everybody.

Dustin is getting very, very confused and frustrated. It seems like Robin and Steve are doubly sure to avoid the mistletoe at this point. He just escalates it further. As things go on, Lucas and Max keep "accidentally" finding themselves under the mistletoe. Dustin yells at them to just get back together and get out of the way.

El and Max, Eddie and Nancy (which once again, they are both giggling so much they can barely kiss. Eddie licks her) and a bright red Will and Mike round out the next round of awkward kisses. Mike kisses Will on the cheek and they are both tomato red.

Every single pair you can imagine get stuck but never Steve and Robin. It's driving Dustin mad.

The thing is Robin and Steve absolutely know what Dustin is doing and they think it is hilarious. It's Christmas Eve at Steve's house and everyone is having dinner and exchanging gifts when they decide to finally put Dustin out of his misery. Robin notes the mistletoe Dustin has hidden and allows her and Steve to get trapped.

Dustin has no chill as he watches with eyes wide, waiting for Steve and Robin to finally kiss. Only for Eddie to gently shove Robin out of the way and pull Steve into his arms. Then Eddie kisses Steve on the lips in a very, extremely romantic way. Like, something out of a goddamn movie.

Steve kisses him back. Oh god, they are kissing each other enthusiastically. Dustin is watching the two men he looks up to most passionately kiss each other.

oh oh oh

Dustin thinks back to Nancy and Robin. The connection between them. The many times that Steve and Robin have sworn they are platonic with a capital P. The laughs and smirks all four of them share with each other. The easy way Eddie touches Steve and gets in his personal space. The way Steve lets Eddie call him Stevie and touch his hair. He'd missed some major signs here.

"Why didn't you just tell me you're all super gay?! Could have saved me a whole lot of effort!" Dustin yells, exasperated but clearly thrilled for his friends. "You can stop shoving your tongues down each other's throats now, I get it ok. Talk about making the Yuletide gay."

Mike character analysis - Season 2

This is a continuation of my in-depth Mike character analysis. The first season can be found here, here, and here. I am basing this off the theory that Mike started realizing his feelings for Will were different than Lucas and Dustin by the end of season 1. By season 2 I think Mike realizes that he's gay and in love with Will. His behavior honestly makes no sense to me otherwise. This is in 5 Parts.

When season 2 picks up, it has been almost a full year since the end of season 1. We learn 2 key points right away - that Will has been having flashbacks to the upside-down since he got back and goes to the doctor regularly. This seems to frequently interrupt his school days and causes Mike in particular to worry. And the second point is that Mike has undergone some serious behavioral changes. This is understandable considering the trauma the group went through in season 1, but it's important to note here that the trauma isn't over. They are still going through it. And it's because of my first point - Will is back but still not ok. There is no resolution or time to grieve and it's one of the main reasons for the change in Mike.

Mike is getting in trouble at school a lot, his grades aren't good, and he has an attitude problem. A thing his parents are losing their patience with. His punishment is to get rid of his toys and when he suggests they have too much emotional value, he gets mocked by Ted who says they are just toys. Mike not only has to get over his feelings about what happened but he isn't allowed to be attached to things. Something that stands in stark contrast to Karen's behavior toward an 18 year old Nancy in season 4, when she tells her she can keep her stuffed animals. Nancy is allowed to be emotionally attached. Mike isn't. He is being sent a clear message. His emotions are an inconvenience to others. And the reason for this brings me to my next point.

Mike is shown to talk to El on the radio regularly. He's counting days and seems to just be talking about random things i.e. telling her about his day. Now he doesn't know that she's listening. As much as he says he believes she's alive there is no proof he actually believes this. He does absolutely nothing to go look for her. And he has no reason to. He saw her "die". There is no indication that this isn't true. And the most important note that I think I will make in this whole analysis is this - This behavior isn't cute or romantic. It's grief. And we know this for A FACT because we have seen this exact same scene before - with Hopper in season 1. Hopper calls his ex-wife repeatedly. He is often shown popping pills and drinking excessively. He isn't coping with the death of his daughter well. It lead to his divorce. His ex-wife moved on, re-married and had another kid. And Hopper is stuck by himself with his grief. So he calls her sometimes. Just to check in and he tries to reminisce. It's his way of holding on to his daughter and their life together. And no one, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE, interprets Hoppers behavior as cute and romantic. He is clearly struggling and depressed. And the fact that he's an adult here combined with the fact that we know he has substance abuse issues is enough to help the audience realize that Hopper isn't ok. He's not trying to get back together with his ex-wife. He's trying to keep the connection to his daughter alive. EVERYONE WATCHING UNDERSTANDS THIS.

So then WHY is it that when we see this same scene play out with Mike, it's suddenly just adorable. Because of the only thing that is different - Mike is a little boy. Between his parents and the GA, Mikes feelings are once again oversimplified and dismissed. He's a little boy of course he must be in love with El because why else would he call her? He's a teen of course he has an attitude. This way of thinking is seriously problematic and it's a large part of the reason why Mike isn't coping well - because no one notices or understands his pain, and certainly no one is helping him go through it. It is emphasized by the Wheeler parents that Mike needs to just get over his attitude. They've been patient long enough. And while he's at it, he needs to get rid of his toys - parts of his childhood - because it's time to grow up now (the phrase "man up" is heavily implied in these conversations). Because the Wheeler parents have this attitude, the GA does too. We've seen this EXACT THING before, too. Lucas and Dustin suggest in season 1 that Mike has feelings for El, so he must even though there is no indication from his behavior that he does. Mike has a bad attitude, well his parents say it's time to get over it so he must. He calls El all the time - must be because he's in love with her. Couldn't be grief. Doesn't matter that we saw Hopper do it, doesn't matter that we know this is normal behavior for grieving people. People often talk to or write letters to the dead. It can be a coping mechanism, but it can also be unhealthy if the person can't let that go and this is exactly what we see Mike doing.

It's a way to over-simplify Mike's feeling and it's entirely because it makes people uncomfortable. So if the GA (and his parents) don't want to see his grief, it's easy to dismiss it as just a little teen angst. It's easy to dismiss it as him having a crush on El - because why else would he be talking to a girl. I know I say this a lot but it's because it's important. People can't understand why anyone talks to someone of the opposite sex if it's not because of romantic interest and it carries over into their interpretations of Mike and El's relationship. They can't understand why he would be talking to her and the reason he does is this - he feels guilty that she "died" helping him find his friend. This is less palatable than a simple crush. Grief is complex and ugly so we need to hide it away.

It's so much easier to dismiss his feelings as the most simplistic answer, but this not only is the reason why Mike is struggling to process his emotions, it's extremely insulting because it implies that he doesn't have any complex feelings to think about. And people dismiss it because he's a boy. They don't dismiss Hopper - he's an adult and is entitled to his grief. They don't dismiss Nancy's attachment to her stuffed animals - it's cute that she wants to keep them. It's Mike specifically who isn't allowed his feelings. Which is why I will never accept or respect the point of view that Mike loves El because he called her a lot. Because Mike's well-being and what he wants and needs isn't being taken into consideration at all. This is a theme that continues through the rest of the series with every character and the audience - except for Will. Part 2 here.

OK here's what I got so far for the AU based off of your weird Dream...

The whole premise of this is this is a univer met Henry in college so he never became the co-owner of fastbear entertainment, So instead of that he just kind of continues to have lots of gay sex in college until he runs into a man who after the gay fun time has a panic attack due to being religious and gay being sin and all that and William gets the idea that he can control people through religion/guilt... Around the same time I think he gets into the supernatural just because he likes vampire novels and thinks vampires are cool, He discovers Remnant/agony and decides to make his cult focus around that! And so he starts forming his call to and it goes really well because It's the 60s and a bunch of new religion stuff is popping up and William is a charismatic man.

By like 1971 his call to is like 300 strong and he moves everyone to hurricane Utah. (By the way I'm using a mix of my remnant/Agony yours if that's okay). Part of his cult's whole Philosophy is that only some are worthy of true in mortality and to get immortality it takes pain, and bloodshed and maybe a little bit of cannibalism if we're feeling silly. Around this time the Afton kids are born, I don't really have much ideas surrounding them and how their parentage might change other than similarly silly ones about them being actually agony creatures or something, But the Cult continues and continues to grow in numbers.

But in 1983, Evan is chosen for like a weird murder ritual thing, And Mikey's forced to do it and he does it with glee because like that's what he's supposed to feel and then he realizes that actually killing your brother makes you sad and he sad :(. Weird idea but I think it's a test of faith thing where somebody in the cult is killed in an incredibly brutal way and like sacrificed and then if they let's say come back to life or possess anything then If they come back as like a remnant zombie which has only happened like twice they are consumed by the cult for like magic religious reasons and if they possess any of this stuff that's kind of like thrown around the body then there To feast on Dissenters and all that...

This is all I got so far sorry if this is weird and rambling and long I just have so much ideas and like weird religious cults <3

Ok I didn't expect this to start with "so one time William was having gay sex and-" but I love this idea. Love the part about Evan and Mike and the two of them growing up in the cult without fully understanding its implications.

I do have a bit that was different (both in the actual dream and me spending my lunch break trying to piece it all together) but a combination of our ideas might work best for a fic:

-Evan was alive in my dream but very much did NOT want to be involved in the cult, whereas Elizabeth was its most enthusiastic member (as you can probably guess, most of the characters were adults by then also)

-Henry was involved and 'opposed' to the murder part of it but made no attempt to stop William.

-William knew NOTHING about remnant, just that corpses kind of sort of maybe made you live longer if you concentrate and consume it right (coughcoughmandatorycannibalismlorecoughcough)

-The more 'lives' you consume, the more powerful you're considered. The ranking was identified with a sort of ritual scarring (similar to springlocks)

-Mike had a breakdown after killing his first person when he was 13 and tried to escape, only really succeeding in doing so with the help of Jen (who also very much wanted out)

-yeah there was still probably gay sex involved why not

I disagree that bi mike wouldn’t make sense within the show’s canon. I strongly believe it would make MORE sense within the show’s canon for many different reasons, and that 99% of the evidence gay mike truthers try to twist to say explicitly confirms gay mike can coexist and be used to support bi mike without much adjusting. I think when you carefully analyze seasons 1 through 4 it’s pretty clear that mike had genuine romantic feelings for El at the beginning of the story. And there’s a lot of subtle things that support a bi mike reading. I think a significant portion of aggressive anti-bi mike theories are rooted in either biphobia, a misunderstanding of the nuances of what it means to be bi, or a desire to avoid having to accept mike’s early canon romantic feelings for El (enshrined into the scripts) cause that would mean accepting that it’s a love triangle. I think gay mike makes sense but it is in no way the only sound theory. And I’m not talking about headcanons, I’m talking about the text of the show

ok i know i said earlier i would respond to this in full but honestly there is WAY too much i could get into and this topic has been discussed to death at this point and i’m not interested in starting discourse again, so i’m really gonna try to be brief (spoiler alert, i failed). first of all, here’s my own gay mike analysis from months ago, back when i personally hadn’t seen any actual analysis about it yet and decided to just go through and analyze the show myself. many others have written much more thorough and articulate analyses, so i encourage anyone to seek those out if you’re really interested in developing an informed opinion about it. but if you’re already convinced one way or another, i’m probably not going to change any minds here, because this has all been said before.

the one thing i’m actually going to try to address here is the claim that mike was at some point genuinely romantically attracted to el, because as far as i can tell, that is the ONLY actual argument FOR bi mike. i haven’t seen anyone ever give evidence or try to argue that mike has shown attraction to any other specific woman or to women generally. if i’m wrong about that, please point me to that analysis (don’t tell me about bi flag colors around him though bc those three colors show up together everywhere in the show and are not specific to mike in any way, i don’t think that’s relevant “evidence”). also, i’m not looking at the scripts here, because i’m really only interested in ACTUAL CANON and the literal content of the show itself overrides any partial, text drafts of it, which is what scripts are. they are written for the specific purpose of filming the show and do not provide full and complete context (and what we are TOLD in this show does not always line up with what we are SHOWN).

just to be absolutely clear, i think that (disregarding the mountains of both textual and subtextual evidence of his LACK of attraction to women) mike having shown genuine romantic attraction to even one woman would be enough for him to be legitimately canonized as bisexual, but in all my understanding and analysis of the show, he has not.

from what i understand, bi mike truthers believe that mike had genuine romantic feelings for el in the earlier seasons that either faded over time or just never evolved past the initial childhood crush stage. i’ve addressed the latter idea before (in a post i can't find rn), but to sum up, crushes on people of a different gender, especially in youth, and during times when one is unsure of or figuring out one’s sexuality are COMMON among gay people. having a childhood crush is not the same thing as having genuine romantic feelings, and therefore is not valid evidence toward any particular sexuality. the insistence that it is concrete evidence of bisexuality is rooted in homophobia and a fundamental misunderstanding of the nuance of gay identity.

the first claim though, that he did have genuine romantic feelings in the beginning, but they faded over time, is what i’m going to focus on. i touched on this in my analysis linked above, but i’m going to try to explain again here. mike’s feelings for el have always been demonstrated with extreme consistency throughout the seasons. after their initial meeting and once mike learns to trust her, each time mike has been in a position to tell el how he feels about her, from season one all the way through to season four, he has behaved in the exact same way: he has struggled to put his feelings into words, refusing to outright claim romantic feeling or intent, and ultimately failed to communicate with el in a way she understands.

similarly, when faced with expressing romantic affection toward or about her, he has behaved with confusion, discomfort, and outright rejection of others’ assumptions of his romantic feelings. (read the analysis for more specifics on this)

each of these times is also rife with familial coding and parallels that subtextually explain WHY he is struggling to either voice or demonstrate romantic attraction. for just one specific example, in the first season, right before their first kiss, mike begins to excitedly describe the relationship that the two of them are about the have with each other (in not so many words) as one of a brother and sister. when el correctly infers this implication from his words, he grows confused, because he had been told previously by lucas, dustin, and even nancy, that his feelings for el were romantic. but he relents, and agrees that that is what his description meant. immediately after their first kiss, during which el is dressed in his sister's clothes, and which mike initiates when he can't find the words to express romantic attraction to her, his first word is.... "nancy." and later, when el is weak from killing the lab people who've been chasing them, mike repeats his earlier promise: that when all this is over, his family will become hers.

this is one thing that i genuinely can’t understand when it comes to the idea that mike ever truly liked el romantically. almost (if not) ALL of their interactions, especially in season one, have some sort of parallel to a familial relationship for one or both of them, on top of many of their interactions blatantly referencing the concept of the two of them being like family to one another. the absolute volume of these instances and the unyielding consistency of this pattern, again, beginning from the very first episode of season one and continuing all the way through season four, means that it is undoubtedly intentional. with that in mind, i cannot see any reading of their relationship that leaves room for genuine romantic feelings, when ALL of the subtext, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, overwhelmingly presents them as family.

i’m not going to get way into the subject of compulsory heterosexuality because i could go on forever and i don’t want to, but the timeline of events in el and mike’s relationship arc makes it very clear that that's what’s happening. for el, her arc of independence is (not solely, but still) intrinsically tied to her relationship with mike. for mike, his struggle with his sexuality, specifically his lack of attraction to girls concurrent with his present attraction to boys (MOST presently Will), coincides directly with his relationship arc with el. i’m just going to link a couple of my screenshot posts where i've attempted to demonstrate this, bc i can't find it in me to explain all the nuances of comphet and the complex way these three characters' narratives have been intertwined (i'm bad at tagging so i can't find many, but here, here, here)

you might want to argue against my above points with scenes like the snowball dance, where he calls her beautiful and kisses her, or the make out scene in season three. but both the familial coding/parallels and the overarching themes of forced conformity (aka compulsory heterosexuality) associated with the snowball in my view completely changes the context behind the surface narrative of a “sweet romantic moment,” especially when you consider the coinciding narrative of mike’s relationship with will and the subtext of what that dance means for both of them. similarly, that make out scene, which can also be read as further evidence of mike’s discomfort with physical affection with el, as well as the overall arc of their entire season 3 relationship, is presented to be directly relevant to (specifically, in direct contrast with) mike’s evolving relationship with will, which IS genuinely romantic.

when i say that bi mike would be bad representation, this is what i mean. his “attraction” to el is consistently directly related to and contrasted with his relationship with will, coding his feelings for girls (most specifically the one girl for whom he has ever shown potential for romantic attraction) as lesser than his feelings for boys (specifically will, but ALSO OTHER MEN). bi rep that prioritizes and values attraction for one gender AT THE EXPENSE of attraction for another feels like an extremely problematic representation of bisexuality, if that's really what they are trying to portray. and this is not even getting into the countless subtextual clues that mike specifically DOES NOT LIKE GIRLS. (our son with a girl?, it’s not my fault you don’t like girls, el? sorry not interested, disgusted face next to “women in science,” blatant lack positive of response to “phoebe cates only hotter,” women’s room GET OUT, boys only, blatant and continued confusion over lucas and dustin’s attraction to max, "trying to solve the mystery of the female species" *LOUD BELCH* etc etc these are just off the dome and these are things that DO NOT WORK as queer coding if mike IS attracted to girls but VERY MUCH DO if he is gay. and there are SO MANY of them. more than that, if he is attracted to girls, then they are examples of the show consistently belittling that attraction, which again feels like a pretty shitty way to do bi representation)

god there’s so much more to this, but i can’t get into every little thing because it would take forever. literally there is SO MUCH evidence against it that i genuinely feel that the narrative would not make sense anymore if mike were revealed to be bi in season 5.

just to address a couple other things you said: i think the reason anti bi mike theory might sometimes come off as aggressive is because when one actually analyzes the entire content of the show, the evidence for specifically gay mike is OVERWHELMING and the claim that there is just as much evidence for bi mike remains unsupported, unsubstantiated, and at a certain point comes off as just willfully ignoring canon and even, at times, homophobic. i always see claims that some gay mike analysis is biphobic, and yet i have never seen any evidence of this. the claim that mike is not attracted to women, despite having been in a relationship with one, IS NOT biphobic. the claim that he is not bisexual, despite many people believing he is and wanting that representation, is NOT biphobic. the claim that his feelings for el have always been platonic and not romantic is NOT biphobic. it is an analytical conclusion based on the content of the show itself. i don’t doubt that some gay mike truthers have been biphobic, but i have not seen any actual gay mike ANALYSIS that is specifically biphobic (if you can provide concrete evidence, i will recant this, but i know that i and others have been careful not to resort to any sort of stereotyping or attempts at “analysis” that are rooted in biphobia). conversely, the claim that mike being in a romantic relationship with a woman and behaving romantically with her is PROOF that he is bisexual IS inherently rooted in homophobia and again, a misunderstanding of the nuance of what it means to be gay. i know (or assume, i guess) that most bi mike truthers aren’t outright thinking this way, and really believe mike’s romantic feelings to have been genuine, but as i and many others have tried to explain, when you do what the show is constantly telling you to do and look deeper than the surface level narrative, all of the canonical evidence from mike’s relationship with el actually explicitly and unambiguously points to the fact that his romantic interactions with her were NOT a result of genuine attraction, but rather a result of compulsory heterosexuality and a part of the natural process of figuring out his sexuality.

you also claim gay mike theorizing could come from "a desire to avoid having to accept mike’s early canon romantic feelings for El" but the fact is that it's not a desire for mike not to have had feelings for el (that assumption playing into the idea that gay mike truthers simply don't want him to be bi, hence the claims of biphobia) but what's actually happening is analysis that leads to the conclusion that he canonically did not have romantic feelings for el. the misconception is that gay mike truthers are simply projecting their own desires onto the text instead of what they're actually doing: critically analyzing it. i'd argue that bi mike truthers are the ones who want to avoid having to accept mike's lack of attraction to women, despite all of the evidence for it.

i've read a lot of analysis on here, from a lot of different perspectives, and i can truly say that every single comprehensive, good faith analysis of mike’s character i've ever seen has come to the same conclusion. he’s gay.

I yapped way too much in this post so skip to the big text if you don’t want to read all of the specific things, but in general I’m curious how people who don’t think Mike is gay/bi and think he’s a good character defend him.

Ok, so I know this is something a lot of other people have probably said, but I think if Byler isn’t canon Mike is a horrible character. Under the assumption that Byler is canon, his actions make sense. Season 3 Mike is still a dick, but I understand why, and I can kind of relate so I immediately jump to his defense whenever someone says he’s a bad character. But if Mike isn’t struggling with sexual identity and heteronormativity and all that shit, he does seem pretty poorly written. I realized this while arguing with my mother, because she hates Mike, and a lot of the GA does—because a lot of the GA doesn’t think Mike is queer.

Mike’s behavior towards both Will and El in a lot of instances is only well explained by him being queer; for instance, his inability to tell El he loves her and how he acts around Will in the beginning of season 4. He can’t say “I love you” because he doesn’t love her—not in the way that would imply, at least. I often change my mind about whether I think Mike is bi or gay, so it could be that he had a crush on her before but is in love with Will, or that he never liked her romantically at all, it doesn’t really matter. He’s still not in love with her, but he does love her (platonically), and he’s confused and feels pressured to keep up the facade that they’re a perfect happy couple. Why he’s unable to say it doesn’t make much sense otherwise. Not being able to write it in letters could be explained by how he’s watched his parents not express love to each other, but why can’t he say it when prompted? I could understand his hesitancy, but not his outright refusal, when he knows it’s what El wants to hear. The only time he says it is when El’s life is on the line and after Will encourages him, which doesn’t seem like a huge improvement.

Similarly, his treatment of Will is strange. Why can’t he hug his best friend? I know they haven’t talked in a while, but there’s really no reason for it to be so awkward. I also think Mike kind of ignoring Will in favor of doing couple stuff with El is because it’s what he thinks he’s supposed to do (heteronormativity!!), but he clearly was paying attention to Will, enough to call him out for “moping” all day. And then there’s his unnecessary emphasis on “We’re friends. We’re friends.” There’s no reason for him to clarify it. He’s defensive, because he’s considering the possibility that they could be anything other than friends, which Will did not suggest. This scene is obviously a parallel to the rain fight in s3, too, in which Mike says his iconic “it’s not my fault you don’t like girls” line. A lot of people suspect this is more projection than anything else, which could be true. Otherwise he’s being a massive asshole, because obviously he knows how it sounds, even if he didn’t intend it to reference Will’s sexuality. He knows how Will’s been bullied for it, whether it’s true or not. I’m not 100% sure about that one, but it’s interesting.

Anyway, I’m saying all of this because I’m curious how non Byler shippers defend Mike. I know a lot of the GA just hates him, but if you really love Mileven then you can’t hate one half of the ship. So.

Milevens, what makes Mike Wheeler a good, well written character and not a shitty, poorly written asshole?

(p.s.: let’s all respect each other’s opinions on ships because we’re all just here to have fun!! obviously I’m a byler but I love you milevens!!)