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freckles-and-wings · 3 years

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Transcript from Misha Collins M&G at #DLConline

“Cas has meant a great deal to many, especially LGBT fans have seen themselves in him over the years. So now that he has confessed his love for Dean, and seemingly come out, how do you feel about his confession?”

I feel mostly good about it. I talked to Berens, about this ending, a year and a half ago. It was a long time in the making. It was really important to him and really important to me. When he pitched me the storyline it gave me chills. I thought - this is awesome. This vindication and this expression of love - at the end - it makes it all worth it. I was really happy about it. You know, it’s interesting, there are some fans who are asexual who have taken solace in the fact that Cas hasn’t made this kind of declaration [before] so I feel bad that those fans might get a little bit alienated. However, I’m sure that a lot of them are also okay with this. There’s a trope in Hollywood of “kill the gays” and so Cas meeting with his demise only seconds after making this homosexual declaration of love fits into that fairly insidious trope, however, for some reason, that is, in my mind, not really as important as the declaration itself. I completely understand people being upset over that. I think that, in the end, of Supernatural, everyone is going to die. I’ve always known that, that’s not a spoiler, I’ve always known that, it’s how the show has to end. But how they die and what quality that death takes has resonance and importance in the Supernatural universe. I think… In the end, that won’t prove to be the lasting point of Castiel’s. I know the intention in the crafting of the story wasn’t to use the “kill the gays” trope. Could Cas have lived in the space of having made that declaration in relation to Dean for longer before dying? Perhaps. But there’s something so dramatically poignant about that particular moment and that particular exit… I don’t know, I’m now getting a little bit too heavy about it.

“I’m still seeing a lot of people online saying ‘oh no, that was totally platonic’. Misha, did you play it as romantic love, does that terminology even make sense for an angel?”

I was actually gonna write an op-ed about the character’s end. Then I decided not to, because I don’t really want the fictional narrative to be dictated by my analytical take on it. I want the story to live and breathe on its own for people to interpret as they want to interpret it. I could just lay down the line and say, “No, this is how it is… Your interpretation is wrong”. I know what Cas is thinking. I know what was going on in my head as I played that scene. I don’t think it was ambiguous. But there is… I guess I’m about to do what I said I wasn’t gonna do… I will say… We’ve always said, “People can interpret this however they want to interpret this. This is a work of fiction”. But I think we did things, we said things that were pretty unequivocal. There’s of course the whole issue of him being an angel, he’s an energetic being from a multidimensional… Or whatever that line was that Ben Edlund wrote about Cas. You know. What does that mean for an entity such as Cas? I suppose one could go down that intellectual rabbit hole. But I think we know what was going on there.

When do you think Cas knew he was in love with Dean? When did you know? Was it at the same time?

I mean… I’ve been playing it for a while. But I knew this was the ending for more than a year of shooting. I knew where the arc was taking us for that time. So Cas certainly knew it for at least a year. But… But you know, it also is an interesting thing to observe. He says, “The one thing I want is the one thing I can’t have” and I think repression is a very powerful tool. I think a lot of people live under such tightly-held repression. They don’t allow themselves to admit things. Often. In the real world. To an extent, that was happening with Cas. That’s my guess.

Did you have a discussion with Jensen about what the reaction would be?

I wish that I remembered more clearly the conversations that Jensen and I had about the ending. I don’t have a really vivid memory of that unfortunately. I do know that I was a little worried because I knew what the ending was long before he did and I think I was a little worried that he was gonna push back on it. If Jensen were to flip out, and said, “We’re not doing that”, we would have not been able to do it. I also think it was very honest to Dean’s character. I actually thought that was a very true [reaction].

If we had a chance to see it, how do you think Dean would have responded?

I don’t know. I honestly don’t know. We never discussed that. To be honest, I don’t think Dean reciprocated with romantic love. This is me speculating. I feel like I’m wading into waters I shouldn’t. This is my take, it’s not Cas’ take because Cas doesn’t know. I don’t know what’s going on in Dean’s head. I shouldn’t speculate. It wasn’t a contingent declaration. It wasn’t “I need you to love me back”, it was a very open-hearted, vulnerable and unconditional declaration.

What was reaction when you heard about the confession scene?  My reaction was “Awesome”. I mean, my first reaction, when Bobo pitched me the idea, was “Oh my god”. I had chills. I was very happy. When I read the first draft… The first draft didn’t have the punch that it needed. I gave some notes. But I was still very happy that we were doing what we were doing.

#misha collins #dlconline #deancas #destiel #spn #i can't share the video as everyone is shown on screen #plus it's technically forbidden #but you can buy the video #or hit me up if you want me to pass on the wetransfer link #anyway i feel like this might help offer some closure #and hearing misha's take just warms my heart #also dean is bi and loves cas back #they run heaven together now #that will be all

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mattzerella-sticks · 3 years

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Thoughts on "Carry On" after I've mulled it over:

Now that I've had time to sit on it, I can be a little more precise on my thoughts of this finale:

- Dean's 'ending': Taken out by a rusty nail... I hate it. Then I heard some opinions - without Chuck there were no magic fixes, and this was bound to happen if they continued hunting because of that. It was a human, ordinary, accidental death meaning the Winchesters are just ordinary. Still, being taken out by a nail or rebarb or whatever wasn't a satisfying death for Dean Winchester. Added to the fact he most certainly wanted to live (Miracle, job application, etc.) And he didn't want to hunt anymore either! He wasn't looking for hunts (like Sam was). They stumbled onto that hunt by accident.

From a writer's point of view, I can say now it makes sense with the plot of the episode (only). Dean's death was a catalyst - to give Sam 'freedom' and to show us, the audience, what Heaven was like now that Jack is God. His own sort of 'freedom', I guess.

Unfortunately the plot of the episode still sucked. Just because it makes sense 'story wise' (and I say that very loosely because Dean didn't even get his loose ends tied up nicely). A death during a hunt was something Dean figured would happen in his youth, and he didn't care because he practically was a ghost without many physical attachments. Now he has so many they decide to take him away and for what purpose? It is the last episode. A series finale should only hurt in saying goodbye to the characters, but not like this.

And a goodbye like this, for a character who has had suicidal tendencies and from the looks of it was moving past that, who never really thought about his wants until this moment, and who was on the cusp of being textually confirmed queer (which would have been monumental just saying), it felt like we as fans were stabbed by the rebarb. Which goes to show how much we love the character, one thing. And I think that's why they knew it would hurt. However, they were so wrapped up in this 'shock' they didn't think about any of the consequences listed above as to why this would hurt not only us but their legacy. They figured it'd be a bookend, only for a book whose story ended a decade ago.

- Cas: A one-sentence reference sucks. That's just it.

Fanfiction was mostly built around Cas, too, and I had a feeling they wouldn't show his rescue because leaving that to us would be a good gift. "Here, Cas is alive and human but we won't tell you how - our last fanfiction gap". But Cas's absence wasn't a fanfiction gap, it's a canyon. So much of this episode doesn't make sense without Cas. And, honestly, a good chunk of outrage could have been avoided if Misha was allowed to film (or, if rumors were true, if they left his scenes in). Like it's been proven the majority of fans love Cas, and Jensen and Jared love Misha, so not having him in the finale gives credence to, that the cast and crew might love Misha, TPTB certainly didn't. And doesn't that tarnish your legacy, that you have a man dedicate 12 years of his life to your show and this is how you repaid him? Even if they decided to 'no homo' Cas's declaration (which i doubt they would have because those optics are much worse) at least show it.

Which leads to why he wasn't included in the finale. If he was there, they'd have to have him and Dean talk. About that night, when Cas told Dean he loves him. And if they did, and had there be a reciprocal confession, I bet things on Tumblr would have felt a little different. An equal exchange instead of plain highway robbery.. Yes we would all still want Dean and Cas to live long, human lives, but at least Dean and Cas's emotional arcs were resolved by the SHOW WRITERS, whose job it is to do so. Not ours! But they never understood how to give Castiel good things. Clearly, they know how to make Castiel give good things (like creating Dean's perfect Heaven for him) but not receive them in kind (reciprocated love from Dean). By not having this, it plays exactly into the bury your gays trope we were all afraid of, even if Cas is back. Because he, a queer character, is still living his life for a character he believes doesn't love him back - even if Cas 'doesn't need to know if that's true'. The audience does, and I'm sure Misha did as well.

The writers set up such an easy win but what this finale did was put every character back to season one, and given Misha didn't show up until season 4, makes sense why he wasn't in this episode.

- Sam's life after Dean: Sam liked being a hunter. We had how many countless episodes show that? He enjoyed saving people, research, being a leader - he was good at it. Hell, they even made it a point to have him find someone in the life who understood what it was like to hunt and wrote a beautiful relationship that also gave disability rep.

Only they never followed through.

Like, with Dean, so much of this lead up was then tossed out the window by Sam starting a family, which he never had any indication he wanted to do in these later seasons. Since season 8, really. What we got was that he liked to hunt, he was good at it. He could have restarted the Men of Letters, America chapter, and made the hunters even more connected than before!

Not saying he didn't do that, but knowing how Sam was raised I doubt he would let himself hunt with a kid. So, by showing him marry and have Dean Jr., it's a non-textual confirmation he retired. Which, like with Dean's ending, didn't make sense with what he wanted. It felt like a "might as well" since Dean wasn't there any longer. Like, whats the point of doing something I love now that I don't have my brother with me?

Instead of leaving the Bunker he should have transformed it into a bustling center of activity so he wasn't alone. Extend the Winchester family further and become the hunters' patriarch. Eileen being the matriarch.

Which, circling back, Eileen should have had textual confirmation, too. They showed a brunette woman standing far back, and I get if the actress couldn't be there to film why they would do that. But why not show pictures of him and Eileen if they did marry? I mean, there's a giant picture of Sam with Dean, Mary, and John I DON'T remember them ever having. Why he would blow that up after having two previous episodes talk about how much of a bad father he is...

Sam's ending falls in the same vein as Dean's in that it's unsatisfactory and doesn't fit the character anymore. Not saying Sam didn't want this in the past, but we all saw him change. Hunting was in his blood, and he was fantastic at it. It used to be a way for him to hang with Dean but it would have also been good to see him carry on the legacy in Dean's honor. A better way then by naming his son Dean.

Which strikes another nail on the head. We have Dean, a subtextually queer/textually ambiguous sexuality character, die, and because of this Sam can go on and live the 'apple pie life'? Cas's confession scene wasn't homophobic, but damned if Sam didn't spend the thirty years after Dean's death yelling 'Straight Pride'.

Textually, giving characters a family is a common trope in these sort of epilogues. Harry Potter, Hunger Games, etc. A way to show they've moved on from trauma and are trying to be happy (albeit in a very antiquated way). But at least it fit with those characters and stories. This was Sam trying to be a person who he wasn't anymore, who clearly would rather be on the road hunting (given that ugly wig scene in the garage with Dean's Impala). Actually, worse, it felt like Sam was trying to live a life Dean always wanted. Which shows that even if he's alive Sam isn't happy with what his life was, he was content. He was waiting for death.

- Dean's time in Heaven: Like I said previously about Dean and his 'death', it makes sense to have Dean die early if the goal was to show how Heaven had been changed. Which hurts worse because that again reinforces how Dean's storyline truly is left unresolved for plot development.

And, honestly, they should have cut this entire sequence if they weren't gonna have the cameos. They should have changed the script so that Dean didn't die, because there was no emotional pay-off of Dean going to heaven. We're told it's freedom, however it's more like a waiting room. For Dean, driving endlessly until Sam dies. And for us, being told we can't start writing until Sam gets there and we finish his montage.

Like, is it beautiful that Jack and Cas remade heaven so Dean would be happy? Yes. Did I need to know this until like maybe the last few minutes? No. Dean could have lived a long life, with Cas/without Cas, and then die first and be taken to Heaven. And then after Bobby gives him the rundown, about how time works differently here, we get the Sam end of life and see him pop up too. And when Sam asks what happened to Heaven, Dean could have clapped him on the back and told him he'd explain in the car and they drive away knowing they lived a good life, and have eternity of peace.

Because having Heaven be an open sandbox, for us, to let characters roam free and see those they love without them being memories - beautiful and exactly how Heaven should be. It definitely is something we as writers would have enjoyed if we didn't get it how we did.

Because it hadn't felt like Dean nor Sam deserved the deaths they got. Making Heaven, ultimate freedom, seem such a dangerous idea. That the only true peace is in death (Dean) and life is spent waiting for death so you can be reunited (Sam). What about any of that makes it seem like any of what Sam and Dean did was worth it? Was good? At least on Earth. Sure, without them (and Cas and Jack) Heaven wouldn't be the way it was. But that doesn't seem like a good reward for them. Their reward should have been living long lives (both of them) and them buttoning it with those five to seven minutes of how Heaven changed (more if they decided to leave Cas as an angel despite that being, again, zero character growth and not aligning with how the story was unfolding)

And after a painful, undeserved death, we get Dean in Heaven but still not happy? It was clear Dean was still waiting to let himself enjoy seeing all his family, his friends, Cas, because Sam wasn't there. Which shows he hadn't broken the sacrificial cycle because he's not putting himself first! "Oh but he has eternity to do it!" Yes, but he shouldn't have had to wait still. His whole life has been spent waiting and he gets killed just before he gets his due, and we never see him particularly 'enjoy' his reward, which is too tragic for a series finale. "He could have done more than drive, we don't know!" Yes, but if they're not showing it then why should I read into it? This finale isn't deep. "But covid-" Yeah, I get that. They should have changed the script because without those cameos Dean's time in Heaven was more than pointless and this whole finale was just an exercise in how to hate your main characters.

What this boils down to is that we, as fans, were told that this was for us, except we already knew Heaven was ours because Heaven was supposed to be the implied. Heaven is whatever we make of it. We didn't need to be told this through the show. Having this be the goal of this episode, of the finale - which sums up the goal of the entire series, really - be totally focused on the life we get after death instead of doing the most to make life on Earth paradise for you, was rotten. And Sam's 'happily ever after' was cheapened because of Dean's death.

- Family Don't End in Blood?: Taking into account all of the above, the show has failed the core message of what we as a fandom loved. Family don't end in blood.

Again, I get that covid stole any chance of reunions in Heaven, but it also stole so many others. Like Sam wouldn't have called Garth, Jody, Donna, the girls and Eileen, to have them here for Dean's funeral? Sam wouldn't have burned Dean alone! We know there was some time that passed since the hunt and Dean's funeral by the dog being there, but it should have been more people. Which, again, they should have axed it from the story if they couldn't get them because, like these side characters have done from the beginning, they change the context of the show! Sam's loneliness would have hit harder if it was a room full of people all telling stories about Dean to then just him, alone, in the Bunker trying to move on.

The writers thought we didn't need all these cameos, but we did because - as we keep repeating - while the show, at its heart, is Sam and Dean, there were so many more people who gave their characters depth and allowed for this show to continue. It should have been a celebration of who the boys became and how it was through these bonds they were able to overcome so much.

Which, if redone in that context, Dean's speech to Sam could have been so much better. More poignant and hopeful instead of sad. I mean, I could barely focus on what was being said because I was in too much shock of what was being done to Dean. If they had a similar speech, given with Dean and Sam parting ways to start new lives. Dean reminding Sam he's done so much good, that he's proud of his brother and knows he can do so much even without him, the emotional beat would have still hit! Probably even better than with his death. Because my takeaway from Dean's death isn't "Dean is proud of Sam" it's "Dean died stupidly".

Going to show that this entire script was a series of choices that were all the worst possible outcome, stitched together and handed in. It didn't feel congruent to the story and, instead, a bunch of items checked off of a list the writers were given. It didn't feel like the culmination of the series like we were promised, instead a 'what if the show skipped fourteen years after season 2, John's dead, Mom's killer dead, and no demon deal'. It felt like (even if it wasn't intended) the writers telling us "don't expect people to change or that happy ending exist in life" which, given current climates and attitudes, is dangerous.

Overall:

They were trying to satisfy an audience built around fandom and fanworks, they wanted to leave so much "up to interpretation" so we can continue crafting our narratives through this open sandbox. What they failed to consider is that we don't care where the brothers, or any of the characters, physically are in this show, we care more about the characters themselves and their emotional goals. That's why we write fanfiction. That's why there's a lot of canon divergence. We thank them for the world and play around in it. So, by giving Sam and Dean these 'half-lives' on screen, letting loose threads hang so we, as an audience, can fill in the blanks (Dean and Cas's heaven reunion, who Sam married, what Dean did while driving for fifty years, etc.) was a poor and lazy decision because we are tired of having to do your job! Supernatural is a collaborative effort yes, but they misunderstood the assignment. We still need textual goalposts, like seeing Cas or Eileen. We needed them to finish what they were saying, so we could then take over and continue the story.

A series finale should feel poignant but the only really emotional moment was Dean's death (not for good reasons), and the rest was filler. Your series finale should not feel like filler. It felt rushed. It felt sloppy and - because of not including a certain character - plain rude. Just... it didn't work. The short of it is that the finale, as a whole, didn't work. It didn't wrap the show up in its entirety like we were promised it would. And if they do revive this show for a mini-series or movie, they best forget what happened in episode 20.

#supernatural #spn #dean winchester #sam winchester #castiel #destiel #spn15 #deancas #jack kline #eileen leahy #saileen #15x20 opinions

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phynali · 3 years

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more spn discussions, just skip this post y’all

@queerbluebird thanks so much for engaging with my post/reply! i really enjoyed reading your response and i have a long reply here.

i’m responding to your post/reply here rather than reblogging it because honestly that thread is - so long. so very long.

so first -

i agree there is a difference between entitlement and what i would call, not promise, but instead “narrative follow-through”. A story that completely lacks narrative follow-through does end up feeling disappointing, or frustrating, or rage-inducing, depending on what’s happened. to me there’s a fundamental difference between critiquing a story based on follow-through and bad storytelling (which your post aims to do), versus say, creating hashtag campaigns about a character being silenced because and spreading conspiracy theories about a bad dub (among other things honestly).

and also - queerbaiting totally sucks, we definitely do agree on that.

where we disagree, i think are these two core points:

i do not see the narrative build-up that demands a follow-through. i do not see supernatural as having built up to the story that many destiel shippers seem to think was there, and no one has ever been able to point out to me any actual textual reasons that do craft that narrative build-up

i fundamentally do not believe that destiel was ever a queerbait. queerbait involves active intent on the part of creators to tease a ship or queer representation in order to draw in $ from queer audiences without ever making it canon, so as not to alienate straight audiences. so, refering to point 1., i do not see the canon text as having laid the groundwork for a queerbait and those romantic tropes, at least not at any point in the past 7 years. and beyond the canon, the writers and producers and jensen ackles all indicated dean was straight, and that they were not writing a romance. if anyone queerbaited the fans, it was misha collins who kept teasing the possibility, and personally i would argue that was irresponsible of him. but that’s a different discussion altogether and tends to piss people off when it’s framed as such, because misha means a lot to them and it hurts to see the man who validated their feelings get criticized for the manner in which he validated them. so i’m gonna leave that aside.

beyond that, I want to engage with some of your specific quotes:

Supernatural loves to say “wait for it.” And I don’t think it’s entitled to feel betrayed if an author uses their story to say “wait for it” in order to convince you to stick with their story and then delivers the opposite after you do.

May i ask, where was the “wait for it” with destiel? this ties in directly to the queerbaiting. i indicated in my post/reply that while i see it from cas, there’s been little to no hint of any reciprocation of feelings from dean, and if anything the past 7 or so years have driven the point home that it isn’t happening. i personally am not able to see the “Wait for it” and that was the point of my question. without the “Wait for it”, i also can’t see the queerbait.

I asked for specifics and while i totally get not having the spoons, you provided a few:

(off the top of my head for Dean though, the mixtape, his response to Cas’ death at the end of 12, subsequent grief arc, and reaction to Cas’ return in the front half of 13 rank highly. His reaction to Lucifer’s prank call in 15x19 might rate, but maybe just because it’s so recent.)

not trying to be unkind here, but i quite genuinely don’t see any of these examples as framing cas and dean in a romantic light, or as hinting at a “what if”. the mixtape is like.... okay, maybe. i had read that as being symbolic of something else, but i can see wanting to read it from a shipping lens. (i don’t however think i’d read it as baiting or “what if” - it was quite textually not framed that way. shipping, 100%, but canon build-up, not for me).

for the other examples -- grieving for someone you consider family? and being happy when they come back? that’s not shippy to me. i mean - contrast the grief he showed over cas’s death compared to his grief over, say, mary? or, less extreme, charlie? and nothing compared to how off the rails he goes when sam is dead or he thinks sam is. so i -- i just can’t see those as creating a narrative that demands a follow-through. and when your friend who is dead calls your phone? of course you hop to the door - i don’t know what is romantic about that. sam would’ve hopped just as quick if “cass” had called his phone instead.

and look - i see what is fun to ship about all that. if i shipped it, i’d be happily collecting these moments with a smile and grinning to myself about how cute they are and much they mean. but shipping it vs. it being romantically framed in the canon are two fundamentally different things. shipping doesn’t imply narrative buy-in or deliberation from the creator.

moving on, you also spoke at length about 15x18:

15x18 made the sort of statement that drew back even people who did exactly what OP said they should do, turning off the TV years ago. It wasn’t a quiet “if you’re still watching, keep waiting,” so much as a shouted “hey we’re gonna do this thing, watch this!”

i guess destiel fans vs. those of us who don’t ship it really see this as fundamentally different. because you discuss that moment as one which requires follow-through, and say that if this were heteronormative m/f love declaration, there would be that expectation of follow-through. not necessarily reciprocity, but more - more conversation, more acknowledgment, more something.

(i mean - if there was more, but that more was “hey i love you too but only platonically, sorry man” would that be better?)

but no - i actually just... disagree with your point on that front. i can see why you feel the way you do and i acknowledge that it can be read as the start of a conversation. to me though -- and clearly, now that the finale is out, how the writers saw it -- that was actually the end of a conversation. the end of, like you pointed out, 12 years. a 12-year conversation that ends in a gorgeous declaration of love, and specifically how love isn’t about being together, it’s simply about being - it’s about the fact that you love someone, and that feeling alone is the most beautiful thing in existence.

to me, that declaration can only be written and interpreted as an ending. a sacrifice, a declaration, and a goodbye. so - while i kind of expected seeing more people in episode 20 and realize that didn’t happen largely due to covid - i’m not disappointed we didn’t see cas, because that culmination of his narrative (and then knowing he was with jack, after, rebuilding the heaven that he rebelled against and finally completing his narrative circle by fixing all the problems with it alongside the good god he sought to find all along) is kind of perfect.

and i genuinely don’t think if cas was in a female vessel this entire time that that would change. maybe some audience members would feel differently, but i think many of us would see it for the end it was nonetheless. there’s plenty of stories with m/f ships that are one-sided and that character sacrifices themselves for the person they love, so i don’t see why this would be any different (except the bury your gays issue, but that’s a whole other and very real conversation about media tropes).

moving on to the series finale.

As many people have pointed out in praise of 15x20, Sam is the absolute most important thing in Dean’s life, his priority above anything and everything… And yet there, at the actual end of the world, Dean ignores Sam’s call and instead cries over the loss of Castiel. Dean’s loss of Castiel plays in tandem with the loss of literally the whole world. But we’re not to take that as a promise that Castiel means more to this story, or to Dean, than a couple seconds of wistfulness after the dust settles?

I... yeah. i don’t see what this even is arguing. that dean taking a minute to himself to grieve his best friend, who just died in part because dean decided to go hunt down billie (who was literally dying anyway). he’s hurting. there’s nothing about this that’s a promise - it’s an end. it’s grief. it’s the horror of losing someone you care about, and the silence that comes after. it’s fundamentally human in it’s pain. and we, the audience, are invited to grieve with dean.

so I mean - of course cas means more to this story. of course he’s meant more than a few seconds of grief, after 12 years. but just because that’s the last time we see him on screen doesn’t mean we don’t value his story, and celebrate how it too came full circle.

You mention cas as a sort of avatar for a different potential ending for the brothers, and highlight him representing:

An ending where higher powers stop yanking them around and they get to actually live in the life they’ve built for themselves.

So while i never considered cas an avatar for that, i do think we all wanted the brothers to have their freedom. “finally free.” so we can agree on wanting that end. but we disagree on whether it was delivered, i guess? because i feel it was.

you also talk about what you and many other fans conceivably wanted a happier ending to look like. can i -- i’m going to be totally honest. i have not seen a single person who’s critiquing the end saying “i just wanted sam and dean to grow old hunting together with their dog until they retire together and die of old age.”

would that be satisfying to those who are mad about the end? i personally don’t think so, but maybe my opinion is being coloured by the most vitriolic fans i’ve seen. if sam and dean got to have the life they wanted free of chuck, and dean didn’t die, and they kept going (or retired and opened a bar together!). maybe sam still had a kid, but again because romance wasn’t the point, the wife wasn’t important and they left her blurry still so we could interpret ourselves if she was a wife or a co-parent or a surrogate or what. maybe dean has a kid too, with a similar question-mark-wife. maybe we get a few images of them having a holiday with jodie and the girls. and then getting to heaven together in old age, greeting bobby with a beer, and going for a drive.

would that be an end that wouldn’t cause fandom uproar? i would enjoy it, soft an slightly discordant as it would be to me. i prefer the ending we got, bittersweet and heartbreaking though it was, but i wouldn’t be taking to social media to yell about it if we got a softer epilogue, so to speak.

on the other hand... would that still not be enough, at least not for so many of the angry fans? i’m genuinely unsure. it seems to me that so much of the ire is about destiel itself, even if people are pretending it’s about more and other things than that. not everyone, but like, a big portion of them. which leads me to believe that nothing short of dean and cas at least interpretable as together is what they wanted. if every other single thing about the existing finale was the same except that cas was the one to greet dean instead of bobby, and even with the same basic dialogue, without discussing the confession, but they have a lingering smile, and dean leaves to drive and wait for sam with the promise he’ll see cas later -

if everything else stayed the same except who greeted dean, i genuinely don’t believe i’d be seeing almost any critique of the finale on my dash. maybe i’m cynical, but that’s where i’m at.

which is part of why i really struggle to believe that people are engaging in good faith when they critique the finale. because i feel like if it offered them either a) everything they’re purportedly asking for but still no cas and zero hint of destiel, vs. b) every other thing they claim to hate stays the same except there’s a wink and nod to destiel - i believe they would take the wink and nod.

On to some other things you raised:

But how can you know to walk away from a tragedy if the tragedy says “the end won’t be a tragedy, keep watching” right up until it ends in tragedy?

Oh i Get this. I hate thinking i’m consuming fun media only for it to rip my heart out at the end. i’ve literally - well, i’ve had a very unpleasant and distressing experience of this, actually. so i get it. also the opposite: i sometimes feel disappointed when i’m consuming media that is gripping and intense and painful, but then the end is too easy, too soft and happy?

BUT - supernatural never pretended it would have a happy end? the end was so. much. happier. than i ever expected. the Swan Song end was going to have Sam in hell being tortured by lucifer for eternity. according to something i read which i am fundamentally too lazy to link because who knows if it would have turned out this way but -- kripke was apparently going to have Dean jump in the cage with him at that end, if the series ended on S5? the ‘horror’ ending. completely devastating sacrifice for mankind (sam), and completely devastating sacrifice for his brother (dean). just -- oof. even if that wasn’t the plan and the series would’ve ended as the episode did - sam was still in the cage and cas was off waging war in heaven and dean was living every day knowing he was alive and his brother was being tortured.

i’m sorry if you thought you were watching a happier show. i know how much that hurts. that doesn’t mean the story was actually that happy though. sometimes, it’s on us as consumers to acknowledge we were misreading the media. i’ve had to do this. it’s hard, it hurts, but it helps you consume things healthier. i’ve had to do this growing recently, and i’m better off for it.

regarding the specific manner of dean’s death - that’s really not what my post was about and i’m not gonna address it here. i’ve talked about it elsewhere and so have others, and @lovetincture‘s original post spelled it out beautifully, in how human it was. i have feelings on how and why i loved dean’s death, and why it was the absolute opposite of what Chuck’s ending was and what he wanted (no blaze of glory), but i’ll leave those for another time.

They cast aside all the relationships they’ve built. [...] They lost/walked away from the life and home they built in the bunker. Dean got a season 1 death. Sam got a season 1 life.

I feel that there is a very huge difference between regression and progression when it comes to cyclical storytelling. And that difference seems to be missing from the ongoing discussions i’ve seen about this in fandom.

Coming full circle to season 1 does not at all mean that the development is ‘undone’ or that the story has regressed or that anything has been lost or destroyed. It can mean that, if the storyteller doesn’t know what the hell they’re doing, but in this case i don’t (personally) feel it’s a fair critique.

Dean’s death might parallel his s1 not-quite death from Faith, but the s15 result of that death is night and day. Dean is no longer alone. Dean does not go up to a lonely heaven filled with bittersweet memories, where even his canonical soulmate and him have wide gulfs between the memories they fill their shared heaven with. Dean dies a hunter, but he dies a hunter who literally saved earth and changed heaven and gets to spend eternity with his brother, side-by-side and together without all the pain and miscommunication, and he gets to see his family and loved ones too. he died having literally made the world so much better.

even without that though?

his story comes full circle, but dean’s character development isn’t about his death, it’s about the fact that in the first several seasons dean could hardly admit he cared without acting like his teeth were being pulled. he was too afraid of abandonment to ask for someone to be by his side. he was too afraid of rejection to let anyone in. and in the end? he asks sam to stay. he tells him that he loves him. he pours his heart out and says all the things that 15 years ago were stoppered in his throat, words trying and failing to claw their way free but his hurt and fears were too deep.

dean is free.

the point of dean’s story coming full circle to season 1 parallels was specifically to highlight this incredible development, not to undermine it. he is different. he is free.

god it makes me tear up just thinking about how happy i am for him despite how gutted i was by that scene??

(i could write a similar analysis for sam, about how he left for stanford to escape his life and how his finale life montage bits were the opposite of that, but honestly this post is long enough already).

Destiel is loosely a part of that promise in the sense that Castiel is a part of that promise. The symbol of free will

You make a super interesting argument about Cas being a symbol of free will. I don’t have much to say about it, because I’m gonna mull it over, because I think it’s kinda cool and I’ve never thought about it.

That’s - all i’ve got. thanks again for engaging. i’m happy to continue the convo if you have questions or want to reblog/reply

(though my followers might hate me omg, i’ve been spamming long spn meta posts for weeks now, it’s just been so confronting to see the ongoing fan reaction on twitter and how divided it is...)

#spn meta #supernatural #supernatural meta #spn #fandom discussions #uhhh what do y'all want me to tag this #it's not wank?#it's an open discussion which i like a lot #hmmm #discourse #i'll just go with that #destiel #kind of #this won't show up in the ship tag because that's not in the first 5 tags so i'm safe i hope #don't wanna be a dick and put this in the ship tag #long post #long post for ts #sorry if there are typos it is almost midnight and i am sleepy

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deancaskiss · 3 years

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Pls help, I'm having a conversation with someone in the YT comment section and this person keep saying that Dean is straight™ because the creators said so, that Destiel is just in people's mind because, clearly, they are just Buddy. I'm so tired to feel like we are the crazy ones who only want to see Dean&Cas banging or whatever, that the show wasn't about ~romance~, that we had gay representation and they weren't killed because they were Gay since everyone dies in SPN, no matter who they are. Basically the creator is God, period (that's what the person said in a nutshell and I want to punch them but I won't answer anymore to them and lose more of my time for nothing). Ugh sorry for the rant but I need a big hug rn 😢

Hi there nonnie. My best advice is to ignore the spiteful comments that person is saying in the comment section. There’s a lot of nasty people out there deliberately saying stuff they know will upset shippers because they get a kick out of seeing people upset. It’s a nasty world, and somehow these people think they “won” in the finale and therefore can go around shooting off offensive and hurtful things to people.

We know there are so many instances throughout the series where Dean has shown interest in men. We’ve seen him check men out, we’ve seen him have crushes on men, we’ve seen him get starry eyed around men and flirt with men. We don’t need to be told Dean is straight because we have all the evidence we need to know that Dean is bi. And that’s not even including the oceans of canon facts we have to back our claims that Dean is into Cas. Even if the creators say something, that doesn’t reflect how the actors played the characters. We know Misha played Cas as in love with Dean for a long time, and the same can be said for Jensen. We know destiel is real. Cas literally told Dean he was in love with him. And there’s been so many little things post-finale to back the claim that Dean loves Cas too. We are not crazy for seeing what was laid out in front of our eyes for the last 12 years.

Whether you see Dean and Cas as being romantically and hopelessly in love, whether you want to see them being soft and loving with each other, or down and dirty, you’re allowed to see them however you want. In my mind, it’s so obvious there were was and is romance between them. Excluding the shitty writing in the last two episodes, the rest of season 15 was centered around the relationship between Dean and Cas. There was huge moments between them- from almost confessions to actual confessions. From telling each other to leave to wanting each other to stay. The relationship between them was one of the biggest aspects of the season. I refuse to touch 15x20 because it was so far off the reservation, but the whole show has been about romance and family and the love that transcends past everything.

Was there a bury the gays trope? Yeah, there was. They killed Cas right after he confessed, and they literally killed Dean days later before he could really process his feelings for Cas, effectively silencing any part of Dean that wasn’t straight. Yes, a lot of people die on supernatural. But the way some characters die, especially LGBT or characters with disabilities, was extremely harsh and uncalled for. I think, even more so, that shippers and people within the LBGT community are upset by the way these characters died. That they was no mercy, and no happy ending for any gay characters.

Also, if we’re talking about God... Chuck literally said that Cas was the thing that he couldn’t control. That our Cas was so in love with Dean that he rebelled and had free will the whole time. And if that doesn’t show you the power of love, then i don’t know what does. Maybe Chuck created everything, but Cas rebelled and made his own choices- to choose Dean and free will and his family- over and over again.

My best advice is to steer clear of people that shove those negative opinions at you. You don’t need to waste your time or your own mental health on people who are deliberately saying things to hurt you. Try to focus your time and energy on the people who have the same outlooks as you do. Spend your time talking with destiel shippers. If we all stop interacting with these haters, then they have no power over us. They go around looking for fights and looking to tear us down. Stop interacting and then they lose interest. Keep on shipping Dean and Cas. Your opinions and outlooks on the characters and the ship are valid and real. You’re not alone. There are so many other shippers who are here for you.

Also, please don’t apologize. Feel free to rant to me whenever you need. I’m always here to lend an ear and listen and to offer my best advice and comforting words. I’m sending you all the hugs in the world *pulls you into the biggest and warmest hug ever* stay strong, poppet. I love you!

#asked and answered #anon #anonymous #dont listen to the haters #you know who really won?#we did #we got cas’ confession #we know dean felt the same #we have misha and jensen in our corner #we have all the shippers and fans on our side #focus on that #you are not alone #everything you feel is valid

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incarnateirony · 4 years

Text

Representation, Authorial Diversity, and more.

“I’ll take some beef jerky and a pack of menthols.”

Been a while since most of you thought about that line, hasn’t it? And for some of you it somehow sends some primitive lizard brain gaydar into overdrive and you can’t really pinpoint why, can you? It makes no sense, that line alone, and how it stands -- but between all of the talk of both Bobo Berens and LGBT media history, including The Celluloid Closet/Vito Russo or the Vito Russo Test, this moment actually puts a pin in a shift within our show, its handling of content formerly completely overlooked by creatives, and the importance of diversifying our writing crews that we all press for.

It was the moment our show leaned, and frankly-- should have been the moment the straights panicked. In fact, some of them did, just before it aired, and then everyone has played at oblivious since.

Before seasons air, we get news on new authors being added to teams, or other workers. Pre-S9 was no different, with fandom finding a tweet from Bobo Berens, our first open-closet LGBT author. I mean, Out And Proud. A true king.

The association if this is the mention of the Bechdel Test, a step aside of Vito Russo.

Now let us begin.

Well first of all I’m just gonna let everyone get a giggle at how Bobo handled the straight male knee coil:

But anyway the response to his initial tweet was a merry go round of concern trolling in the area of “OH DEAR I FEEL SO SORRY FOR YOU PLEASE ALLOW US THE NORMAL ASSBAGS OF THE FANDOM TO TELL YOU AN AUTHOR HOW STRAIGHT THE CHARACTERS ON THE SHOW YOU’RE WRITING FOR ARE” and I dunno, it’s comedy.

Whether or not Bobo was addressing SPN as a new project in particular -- and it, from a dark age of SPN I’ve covered the upheaval during -- this is important. Really, really important.

Let’s say that timeline does overlap Bobo’s, and he did implicitly believe it; he might have had to write them as Straight Guys; but his own deep-seated place in the LGBT community developed resonant text, he made change. Change enough that when his first script was put into motion, the showrunner took one look at it and, for the first time in recorded history, we had note of some sort of intent --

Misha went on to say “so that’s what we played there.”

Regardless of anyone’s misunderstanding about how the fandom riled themselves up prematurely and shot themselves in the foot by lighting a CW exec on fire in the middle of network level board/CEO rotation commotion, or whether or not it’s visible enough for anyone--

this, this moment, this content, created by this LGBT individual led to this first known forward motion of intentful creative subtext. People can hilariously try to argue semantics about it that summarily boil down to “I mean it could be metaphorical jilted lovers it could be this it could be jilted lover bros, it’s just a turn of phrase!” in a loop as they’ve done with this data for six years until it dies every time, but this was it. This was the moment.

There is a nuance in this sort of writing -- how easy would it be for Dean to come up and say, “I’ll take some beef jerky.” Dean’s the meat man, Dean loves meat! We’ve seen it in other, new, straight authors the first time they try to tick off the Dean checklist, but like many lessons, that extra line leading into that smile holds volumes of LGBT history unspoken.

I think several of us Old Gays(TM) have banged on about the necessity of reading the Celluloid Closet, because for as much as people think they’re chasing queer subtext around here, it’s like they have completely missed that there actually is like, a printed, accepted code of conduct on this shit, basically. That’s not exactly what it was released for, but if you’re LGBT and engaged in lit and over 40 like you’ve read and understand and know this.

I’m not going to sit here and over-needle that line; most of you felt it the second your eyes drifted over it; but the sum of it is -- why that, what charming secret comes with that smile, a dean we’ve never seen smoke either, how is this part of how Dean throws himself back before his ex buddy leaves more unseen, *why* is that the hook? These are ironically things that no lit crit study *beyond* excessive citation of Celluloid Closet will really capture. This is a form of queer coding -- not the villainous disaster type that queer coding actually *is*, but the subversive form as it’s begun to be casually addressed in the population with positive, resonant content by authors choked out by IP holders while trying to service an audience. Or sometimes, even starting to accidentally.

So you know, you can unironically double down on the simplicity of Dean implicitly probably being a smoker (a possible read of subtext!), and I think this is kinda where the bizarre split happened tbh, because dude bros double down subconsciously into each reading of this kind of coding-- Dean just smokes, or this or that, though it grows thinner by year. Not about why that line is tossed, and how, and does just set off some sort of TV pheremone we all swamp like a bee hive. None of these moments truly mean anything independently. But it is the perspective and voice the text begins to take. The difference between that and “Hey pal [chews on jerky before buying] marlboros and got any pie?” in one moment that knocked everybody around on their ass in the fray of it. And then it all just went gayer from there, as if framed by one sharp moment that set the rest of the tone.

Hopefully you’ve all read my giant post about the history of this all to remember what I mean by accidentally, but even Bobo posted on it before,

That’s all an aside to the general point but worth placing into the edge of the conversation here.

The simple fact is, an activist gay man joined the show, and possibly with ‘keep it straight’ notes wrote some stuff so resonant, due to his point of view in life and the world, that even the showrunner decided to further guide it in that direction. It blossomed a direction.

The direction was small and slow and meek at first, (well, in final product -- don’t get me started at how S10 looks if all the cut scenes were included) with subtext running as dull echoes in Colette (oh look he wrote that too), and maybe more obvious with classic heart songs -- but even this was more structured than “Misha inherited abandoned storyline they scrubbed the romance out of as best they could”, or “Sera Gamble is a dumbass” that just happened to feature great chemistry and some resonant elements, like Bobo mentioned, we all connected with. But to actually constructively choose to incorporate these, no matter how quietly, was... *new.*

And some called it queerbait and I’ve already given history lessons from other angles on why no, but also now why here, definitely, no.

By season 12 we gained Yockey, another LGBT man, another activist in his own way like Bobo, but his less in writing political stuff and more in writing LGBT specialist plays. And everybody loved him, and saw it, and Yockey gets a boat load of praise -- deserves a lot of it -- but sometiems I feel like Bobo gets trampled over without recognition of how he shifted the playing field, the calculated effort he started putting into mastering those accidental resonances into something new, and ultimately to guiding the new author crew, Yockey included, or Jeremy on this newest episode who thanked him.

The same man that picked up Wayward and connected Dreamhunter... back to his own work and moments. The insanity of yelling “HOW DARE YOU LESSEN DREAMHUNTER BY COMPARING IT TO DESTIEL!” when, dead ass, you’re looking at this author who has carefully incorporated work and, with an already resonant story, made another relationship familiar to us by making it similar. Because that’s how writing stories works! But either way, Bobo has been in here doggedly growing the breadth of the legitimacy of queer narrative in supernatural -- to the point that it HAS narrowly, quietly breached into text even if not “loud” or “visible” enough for some people -- and the point where the subtext is so wall to wall and flooding every piece of cinematography in shooting and not just set or lights but complete mise en scene -- a point where everybody OUTSIDE of fandom is just addressing this shit as what it clearly is --

...That’s something that came with bringing the scope of an LGBT male author into the show. Whether you like the volume he’s been allowed to take his work to or not is your own thing, but before yelling queerbait at any creatives, perhaps it’s time to play “sit down children, and learn to appreciate the activists who came before you and how they’re fighting for you right now”. You wanna yell at something, get organized, pelt the CW in a non-aggressive, non-light-on-fire way, do activism like the books Emily put together that are resultingly still on the current showrunner’s desk now 6 years later, but most of all, don’t take a shit all over content you would otherwise enjoy, at the expense of a man in the demographic you’re trying to represent, who has battled, LITERALLY, for both the women and the gays in this show. Wayward was his baby. This slow swing in S9 that turned into a loud din in S12?

It wasn’t magic. It was a gay author. A gay author that has now climbed to be an Exec alongside dabb and the others and SURPRISE now suddenly everything’s so gay the whole goddamn world is seeing it. Literally SEEING IT, not just guys looking at each other with stories, but intentful, meritful choice in extremely bold cinematography choices that don’t require chasing a post-it on the wall, but instead are shot with care and devotion. Be that 12.19 Mixtape (OH DAT HIS) or 13.5′s Never Too Late (OH DAT YOCKEY. check what antis said to Dabb in his mentions after, even they saw it). Be that 14.18′s het drama PR promo (OH OOP DAT WAS HIS), be that 15.1-3′s entire tension and the openly addressed and so-called by media sources break up (OH DAT HIS), be that 15.7′s low key textuality (to which the new author thanked the elder for guidance, huh), or 8′s heavily shot domestic separation moment loudly filmed in the choicefully hollowed out and dimmed kitchen bereft of family -- this change? This had a moment. And you can find it.

I’ll have some beef jerky and a pack of menthols.

So this has been eating at me ever since this whole topic came into play.

Anyway full circle them trying to ride Bobo to Keep It Straight probably wasn’t their smartest idea ever. We gays are contrarian by nature so tell me to do it again, motherfucker. And now here we are in Destiel Divorce Season 15 as heavily managed by Bobo.

Everyone got so fuckin dramatic when Yockey said he was leaving like, tolling the burial bells of Destiel and-- like??? hello? BOBO? JUST? GOT? PROMOTED? Like Yockey didn’t make that entire platform all by himself, and hell, he didn’t leave without laying out unironic empty space of it. Yo guys, Berens done been here a WHILE to the point he’s now *callbacking his own season 9-10 material wtih him and dabb*. Like. Lmao. Guys. Guys listen. Listen. Think.

Whatever your weird goalpost is I’m not promising anybody’s anything is about to get hit. Whatever clown nose expectations you all have enjoy those and honk those loud and proud but remember most of those are yours. But respect the fact that Berens has essentially cornerstoned an entire queer canon within Supernatural discussion, of which others are included in as they joined.

And yes, queer canon. Not the way fandom throws it around for weird kissing spots, but articles of discussion of queer narratives, of which we can literally draw a wealth of episodes from LGBT authors or their understudies and literally point and go “all of that right there, officer.” Whether it’s visible or textual or undodgeable or marketed enough or glittery enough or whatever for everyone’s very unstable definition of “canon” -- Berens has literally cornerstoned an entire architecture of queer canon within this legacy show.

#supernatural #spn #destiel #bobo berens #representation issues

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chocolatecakecas · 3 years

Text

I'm emotional again so I apologize for my rambling

It's the fact that they KNEW this was a horrible ending, they were so aware that it was wrong, and they did it anyway. We don't have all the facts so I'm not here to rant about whether it was some specific writers or the CW's fault, in a way I'm quite positive it's BOTH.

I'm not talking conspiracy theories or speculating wildly, I am going off the info we know and what we saw. It is CLEAR that it was altered in some way shape or form, you can't really debate that. It was clear that the finale itself was missing things, a lot of the editing was weird, it was 80% montage, it was inconsistent within itself, and this is regardless of the fact that it didn't align narratively with the previous episode(or yk the entire show). I have my theories, I have read other people's theories, I've seen the evidence everyone has been gathering, and regardless of whether or not it holds any specific truth, it is clear that SOMETHING was changed. And this is eating away at me.

It's the fact that aspects of the finale clearly changed between March and when they began filming in the summer. Something changed, something was taken out, maybe multiple things were taken out. There have been posts showing evidence that Misha filmed for the finale, or that Cas was originally in the finale and his scenes were cut from the script or that Misha filmed the scenes and they were edited out (this would explain the recent set photos of Misha with Robert Wisdom, who plays Uriel)....believe what you will, but you can't deny it all seems fishy. We know how they love to cut things out of the script (may I remind you of the crypt scene). We know how they love to edit things out (face caress in s11 and s13, Jensen said they edited out some of his reaction during the confession, and allegedly in 15x19 too). So it wouldn't be ridiculous or crazy to assume that something was cut or changed during the quarantine period.

To be clear I'm not insinuating it would have been a completely different finale, like regardless of any changes they may or may not have made, we would have gotten pretty much the same episode, because this ending has been planned (and hated by Jensen) for over a year. I have already criticized a majority if the finale in other posts, this post is about it in general, not about the various narrative issues. I AM insinuating that small changes were made, such as the possibility of seeing/hearing Cas, or perhaps a discussion about him. And those "alledged" changes were not made because of covid, it was clear they had other motivations.

So it's just the knowledge that the finale was possibly changed, and that those changes most likely involved erasing Cas or evidence of Cas, is infuriating and heart shattering. It begs the questions, if they had filmed it pre-covid and it aired in May as planned, what would it have been? What could we have possibly gotten? What would we have seen? It's maddening to think about, but I can't stop thinking about it. And I know it sounds childish but, it's just not fair, there's no other way to put it.

This is just sickening to think about. This show has been running for 15 years, the finale should not have felt and seemed rushed, but it did. Aside from the numerous issues with the plot of the episode, it felt clunky and off putting. A lot of the scenes contradicted themselves and none of it really "fit" together, it wasn't a cohesive episode. There was a lot riding on this finale, meaning a lot of work should have gone into the structure of episode itself. Instead it was filled with montages, rather than actual scenes, there was a notable absense of dialogue considering it's usually a pretty dialogue heavy show, it seemed hesitant and the overall tone was off-putting. The strange tone can't even be passed off as a "bitter-sweet" goodbye to the show that most series finales have, it was just strange. Overall, it just caused the entire finale to feel rushed when it shouldn't have been, as they announced this would be the finale season well over a year ago, the ending was written well over a year ago and even with covid they had more than enough time as they began filming for the final two episodes on August 18th, they knew this was coming and had plenty of time to prepare. Things just aren't adding up.

So this leads me to believe that last minute changes were made. Whether it was cuts in the script, cuts while filming, or alterations in the editing process. And if that's the case, its just disheartening, as someone who has been a fan of this show for 9 years, it's heartbreaking to think that due to the circumstances (not just covid there are various factors at play), that they would just present us with a, "half-assed", finale after all of this time. Whether you believe that they might have treated the finale of this show as "inconsequential" or that they did it on purpose to erase any traces of the "gay narrative" that was developed, it is still a slap in the face to the fans, the actors, and the group writers who have actually cared about these characters and the story they were telling. I feel like I will be angry about this forever, we all have a right to be angry with what we were given. And I cannot ever forgive whoever is responsible, whether that's some specific writers, the network, or both, (and honestly we may never find out who) for the damage they have caused to this show and it's legacy.

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almaasi · 5 years

Text

reaction post typed while watching SPN 14x06 “Optimism”

bisexual DEAN + COCKS, I cannot believe that actually happened

02:03pm

i’m a day late but SO READY

charlie and sam!!!! i saw a couple promos, one with a screaming girl and jack and dean (oh whoop just typing that makes me think of the youtube duo jack & dean, somehow i never noticed that before??)

i’m having trouble looking at screens and stuff (vestibulitis, i believe) so i’m nauseous and dizzy, and just gonna take breaks as needed~

02:07

rEALLY like the visual and sound edits on the recap !!!

......one minute later as the recap ends, i realise how ridiculous it is that i’m like “hey!!! the people who make this show professionally actually made something good!!!”

02:09

............ARE THEY KIDDING

ANOTHER ONE???? STRAIGHT OFF THE BAT????

YEAH OKAY

I’M HERE FOR IT

02:10

AND THE MICHAEL HAT

what is going on

old man clearly has the hearteyes for the girl who says hello EVERY SINGLE DAY ..... just sayin

02:12

am i just gonna see this entire season as a series of destiel aus now??? because now girl-cas is sorting books in the library and i am PUMPED

you sort those books girl!!!!! yeah!!!!!

02:13

the frills on her shirt look like wings

uuugrhguh i love this ??? because in a weird way it’s soooo damn close to seeing cas in a different costume

WISHLIST: PUT MISHA IN A FRILLY SHIRT

also adoring the fact they’re just going full-out with telling stories through fashion here.

like. i am a fan

02:16

“arbour, it’s me!!!”

“winston, god”

wait wait i gotta check who wrote this.

ahh steve yockey, good

i checked because i was like “wait, that doesn’t seem like the deadly duo writing style, or name choice”

now it makes sense

.........well her name was harper but close enough

02:18

how dare all three of these incredibly white people be so cute? why

02:20

wiNSTON IS THE CUTEST MOST ADORABLE HUMAN ON THIS PLANET

but given the nature of this show, that makes me suspect he’s a vampire or something

02:21

ohhhhkay that’s the music and the sequence from that spider man movie

02:22

now i think he’s gonna die

like. immediately

he’s gonna get hit by a car or something

oh god i can’t look

02:23

................................yup

02:26

jack: “maybe i’m allergic to sitting around doing nothing”

he is so much like cas

02:26

dean: “cas is an insurance policy on those hunts”

OH GOD NOW I JUST REALISED HOW BADLY I WANT AN EPISODE OF JUST CAS HUNTING BY HIMSELF AND SOLVING A CASE ALL BY HIMSELF

also with jack. and with dean and sam. but CAS ALL BY HIMSELF

02:28

h e l p

02:29

jack: “we can be hunting buddies!!”

dean: “okay. A) don’t call it that--”

that little nervous huff though

WHY DEAN? IS THAT WHAT YOU AND CAS CALL EACH OTHER WHEN YOU NEED TIME ALONE? “HUNTING BUDDIES”

02:33

“DICK’S RED ROOSTER DINER”

tell me that doesn’t sound like five-star “eat some penis cock here” signage

and dean drives up with his manly phallic symbol

02:37

i love this woman for making dean make this face

02:38

I GASPED OUT LOUD

ANYONE WHO DOUBTED ME ON THE PHALLIC DINER NAME BEING A BISEXUAL DEAN THING, CASE IN POINT

THAT IS THE MOST PHALLIC NON-PENIS OBJECT I HAVE EVER SEEN

(i have so many questions. did someone find it in a thrift store and keep it for years until they found the right way to use it? did they get it made specially? THAT THING EXISTED FOR THIS EXACT PURPOSE)

THERE’S A CAKE RIGHT THERE, WHICH IS A DEAN-LIKES-MEN THING (VS. DEAN-LIKES-WOMEN BEING PIE)

AND HE PUSHES IT AWAY WHEN THE LADY IS LIKE “DATING VS SEX, SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE THE SEX”

DEAN RESISTS THE SEX WITH MEN BECAUSE HE WANTS COURTING & DATING FIRST

WITH CAS

BECAUSE WHO THE FUCK ELSE

I am dying

this symbolism is killing me

great!!!! i want to place an order for 3000 more of these please, thank you, i’ll pay in cash

fyi there is no doubt in my mind that dean is bi and knows it. he’s written as bi, the writers know it, the directors know it, the set decorators know it, and jensen knows it (he’s intelligent and he has a dirty mind, he knows exactly what that cock means. like, neither dean or jensen need need to know what “bi” means or remember what the flag looks like to know the concept and experience occasional attraction to men as a part of his personality)

02:52

sam: “that wing man was you”

charlie: “no it wasn’t”

rainbow in the background behind charlie’s head

no worries, she may be a different person but she’s still gay af

02:53

the love of charlie’s life was kara/cara

i’m taking notes

C UPCAKE BaKERY !!!

02:55

oh “tara” not kara or cara

.......oh man that is the worst backstory :c

02:57

trust dean to be surrounded by cocks and be like “but i like pie women”

shoutout to that lil pink sugar box on the left

02:59

headcanon: dean sniffs cocks before he puts them in his mouth

BUT SERIOUSLY THEY HAD HIM PUT A COCK IN HIS MOUTH. THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. VISUALLY. WE JUST SAW THAT HAPPEN WITH OUR OWN EYES.

WOMEN PIE IN ONE HAND AND MEN COCK IN THE OTHER ARE YOU KIDDING ME

I’M FUCKING REELING HERE

DEAN IS THE MOST BISEXUAL

HE STARTS WITH THE WOMEN PIE BUT THEN HE’S LIKE YEAH OKAY I’LL TRY THIS MEN COCK ... PRETTY GOOD YUP

I DIDN’T THINK THEY’D EVER TOP THE CAKE=MEN THING BUT THEY DID. THEY EVEN PUT THE CAKE AND THE COCK TOGETHER TO PAIR THEM TOGETHER AS SIMILAR METAPHORS (SEEN IN THAT EARLIER SCREENSHOT)

I’M NEVER TAKING CAPS LOCK OFF AGAIN

no but actually 911 hello yes this is obscene

sidenote, this is reminding me slightly of my destiel chicken au Roost

three guesses why

03:07

jack: “no, you back off, old man”

FOR SOME REASON I’M HARDCORE ROOTING FOR JACK RIGHT NOW

EVEN THOUGH THAT CLEARLY HURT DEAN’S FEELINGS

03:12

harper’s apartment is #2

two people, takes two to tango

two of cups in tarot is new love/romance/relationship/friendship

03:17

harper and jack getting along

was harper meant to be a cas parallel or was the trenchcoat just a visual thing at the start? because she wore a completely different coat when he brought jack to her place

i considered that her thing with the old man, paired with jack calling dean “old man” maybe made it a “dean’s getting older but cas is immortal” thing which makes me VERY SAD

did dean just call vance “archie” ? as in archie comics? as in riverdale?

i feel like there’s some form of symbolism in another man wrestling dean so he goes tumbling into a waterfall of romance novels

03:32

“a brass nail dipped in sugar water can kill it”

sooooooo... something brass covered in soda

(edit: or just shoot it, okie dokie)

03:37

harper: “it’s a little game we play”

well i mean... if you’re gonna be undead and magic, then this does seem like a fun kinky thing

seducing other boys and killing them

sure

03:45

dean: “you know, jack, you’re pretty smart sometimes”

yeah

i love them both <3

also when dean said “love gets crazier that that” i expected jack to ask dean if he’d ever been in love

03:47

OH MAN

that was a great episode 10/10 easily. my favourite episode from this season so far

my favourite part was dean + all the cocks

best part was sam comparing charlie to the musca and convincing her to stick around

i LOVED the two hunts, and getting to see two different teams doing unrelated things but enjoying both

i like that harper didn’t die

i love that charlie and sam saved the black guy and he didn’t die

idek what else to say, this was a fine piece of writing

and i can’t even complain about a lack of representation, really, since everyone besides dean/sam/jack either turned out dead or evil and that would just add to the representation problem

(BUT WHERE WAS CAS????????????? WHERE WAS CAS????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? LITERALLY DON’T EVEN KNOW)

I am worried about jack but know he’ll ultimately be fine

I WILL NEVER BE OVER THE BISEXUAL DEAN THING THOUGH

THAT WAS A PYRAMID OF PURE 22 CARAT GOLD AND I LOVE EVERYONE WHO HAD A HAND IN CREATING THAT FOREVER. especially director richard speight jr, since i have the feeling he mostly concocted this himself since it was 100% visual and maybe not even in the script and he’s done unscripted penis jokes before

#14x06 #optimism #Steve Yockey #Richard Speight Jr #Dean is bisexual #spn spoilers #season 14 #Elmie watches things #post of postiness #dick jokes

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