#I feel like I got grumpy in a lot of my reviews but I actually really like the characters and putting them in order was really hard!!
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Ranking Wheel of Time Characters and their Narrative Arcs
I've been thinking about a post like this since probably book 8, so here we go. My ranking of the arcs of the major characters in the Wheel of Time book series, and separately my ranking of those actual characters (because they are not the same!!)
Arcs:
Nynaeve
I could say a literally never-ending amount of things about my darling Nynaeve. I think she has the most internal development of any character in the series, which makes her feel especially human to me. Getting to watch her learn that her anger is rooted in fear and a lack of control and to confront that was so powerful and it felt very real. Watching her grow from hating Moiraine to standing beside Moiraine at the end with Rand made me so emotional. And speaking of Rand, it was so nice to have one of the original Emonds Fielders with him in the later books to witness his descent--I think it added depth and believability both to her character and her position having cared for the younger ones when they were kids, and also really helped humanize Rand. While I tend to think Nynaeve's relationship with Lan is really random since they barely speak to each other when they fall over their skis in love with one another (apparently), by the end of the books I'd accepted it and it also made me emotional when she went behind Lan's back to find all the other Malkieris to ride into battle with him. I just feel really proud of Nynaeve and want the world for her and I'm glad that she was given a real growth arc the series.
2. Mat
So I grew from thinking Mat was a bit annoying and childish, to finding him fine as a character but listening to his chapters at 1.6 speed because I didn't care about carousing at inns or random bands of fighters, to having his chapters be my favorite. And I think that's because Mat really evolves throughout the series in a way that still feels very believable and true to the same person/character. He's is written so well as a character learning lessons while staying true to the core of who he was in the first book. I felt a lot of pride for Mat when he rescued Moiraine, and although I saw some chatter by folks on the internet that they'd be fine if the Daughter of the Nine Moons thing doesn't happen in the show, I actually really liked his relationship with Tuon because it was one of the few relationships we saw actually build and develop slowly. Despite being a fated relationship, they also spend time together and develop a rapport. It was a fated marriage not fated love, and I thought that worked much better than the fated loves of Rand’s polycule. I also liked that Mat and Tuan's relationship had some ambiguity until the end; although they clearly cared for one another, we never saw them come to really understand one another, which felt authentic to the situation they were in. Mat is also one of the very few men in these books who actually recognizes that there are things he doesn't know and doesn't need to be involved in, and I appreciate that from a male character in what ultimately remains a pretty patriarchal world despite RJ's structural changes to society (I can back up this statement about patriarchy, but that is a whole separate post). I think this is likely at least in part because Mat doesn't engage with the Power, which is the part of the books that most upholds patriarchal stereotypes and values. Now I'm rambling about Mat more than his arc, but I think he both has a lot of depth and grows internally in significant ways and I really appreciate it!
3. Aviendha
I love Aviendha as a character, and I think her arc is another really good example of slow internal growth. We see get to see her go from Maiden to Wise One to the person who discovers the new message hidden in Rhuidian and what that means for her entire people. We see her struggle with what it means to have left the Waste and what she feels is right for the future. And all of this without that many point-of-view chapters compared to other characters! Aviendha's relationship with Rand also feels the most authentic to me of any of his three women. We actually get to see their dynamic build and see them spending time together, it’s not just like “oh I’m fated to love him!” They also spend time apart and Aviendha doesn't spend that time pining over him, but rather focused on her own goals and the bigger picture. From the narrative, I get why they like each other and also why they are a good match for each other. I don't love her getting injured in the way she does at the Last Battle because I'm not really sure what purpose it serves (I guess it's the ultimate sacrifice for an Aiel to not be able to walk or fight?), but if my biggest qualm with her arc is only at the very end, I'll still rank it quite high.
4. Egwene
When I started reading the books and talking to friends about the gender dynamics in them and the female characters, so many of them mentioned how Egwene gets one of the best arcs in the series. And while I don't disagree with that (I have her ranked in the top 5 still!), I think the fact that Egwene is not a ta'veren in the series really hurts her arc in the later books. Once she's Amyrlin, and particularly once she goes back to the tower as Amyrlin, I feel like she starts to get plot armor that detracts from her actual development. All she has to do is talk and people are completely swayed to her side in a way that I think sort of stunts her internal growth. I loved her time with the Wise Ones in the Waste and with the Aiel and I think it really showcased her eagerness and dedication in a way I related to, and it made her growth in Tel'aran'rhiod and becoming the Amyrlin feel really deserved. Her ending was tragic and powerful and somehow it both doesn't feel like what she deserved but also feels like it lives up to Egwene and I feel really conflicted about it!! I'm was very meh on the Gawyn stuff, since I don't think it really added anything and he's a bit of a downer of a character--honestly, Egwene is the character in the books I most wish had just not had to have a romantic relationship. That said, unlike a lot of other relationships in the seires, we at least see Egwene's feelings for Gawyn develop over time in the dream world so it wasn't as frustrating for me as some other characters' romantic arcs.
5. Rand
For me Rand's and Egwene's arcs are really really close in terms of how much I like them, but I think there are things missing in the execution of Rand's arc that make it a bit lower for me--had it been done slightly better (from my perspective) I think it would have edged out Egwene. I really *want* to empathize with Rand starting around book 11 when his PTSD and the weight of everything else he’s carrying really starts to impact him. But because he spent the first five books whining about how everyone is trying to use him as a puppet (and particularly suspecting literally any woman with power before he had been given any reason to do so), his later arc doesn’t lead well into him then being someone you’re supposed to empathize with in my opinion. Particularly because his whole arc in the later books is about love and compassion, but I don't feel like we get that from him in the early books? I find it very confusing. I think for that progression to work we really needed a part of his arc where trusting and/or showing compassion to someone leads to serious harm, then he turns hard, and then he remembers the need for compassion. Maybe I’ve just forgotten it but I really can’t think of anything at all like that first step in the books? He distrusts the people who eventually hurt him? And things generally work out for him, even though he’s struggling internally? Anyway, this rating is higher than it otherwise would be because of how much I *want* it to work because having a chosen one who so clearly struggles with the weight that destiny places on him is interesting and the madness angle is also interesting to me. Oh also, I think Rand should have actually died at the end and that not doing so makes his arc more boring, sorryyyyy.
6. Faile
Faile is another character I really wanted more for. I hated the weird dynamics in her relationship with Perrin, but I could have liked them together without the physical abuse and if the power dynamics had felt more consensual and didn't have this whole element of her expecting Perrin to behave towards her in a way that he clearly didn't want to. Her being the lady to his lord was cute! I also liked Faile's progression from being a Hunter of the Horn to guarding the horn at the end. I like how self suffiicient she was and how she was able to find a way to combine what she was born for/raised for and what her parents wanted for her (being a noblewoman) with what she wanted (adventure and love).
7. Perrin
I have very few real issues with Perrin's arc and I’m sure other people liked it a lot. My ranking it relatively low is much more that it bored me and I left the series unsure of what it was trying to say than it being a bad arc or doing Perrin a disservice. I hated Perrin's relationship with Faile, and I hated that I hated it because (as discussed above) I think it had a lot of potential. Like Mat, I appreciated that Perrin did not think he needed to be involved in everything nor that he was always right, and I found his growth from boy to man quite believable and that it took place over the course of the books in a way that was well-constructed. I found the whole question of hammer vs axe and his contemplation of the Way of the Leaf to be really interesting! But I'm not sure I fully grasped the resolution of that debate and what the entire focus on it in the narrative was trying to say. And I feel the same about his struggle with the wolf side of him. Is the point just that violence is sometimes needed? And/or that it eats us up from inside? (But also that we have to accept that?)
8. Elayne
I want to do my best to separate Elayne from her arc, since I personally don't love her character for reasons purely of personal preference. I think the reasons her arc specifically is lower for me is that I feel like we don't get to see her growing into being a queen, since one of her primary character traits is that she is already so royal when they all meet her. I think the decision to have her win her crown in Caemlyn with a battle where they just snuck up behind the other forces was a weak one -- why couldn't they have defeated these people before if it was that easy? I also don't love that she gets no time to like learn how to be a queen before she is more focused on becoming a mother. The whole pregnancy arc doesn't sit quite right with me. She sleeps with Rand literally once and it's basically just to get pregnant? But this just builds off of what I dislike about how she just decides she's in love with Rand one day because she is fated to be. Give me the scene where they bond over war strategy and thinking like rulers like six books earlier instead of in the last book! It also seems like there's no reason she and Aviendha couldn't have become friends before realizing they both liked Rand instead of because they are forced into proximity by that fact, and I also feel like she and Rand should have spent actual time together before falling for each other--to my mind the way her part of the polycule goes down weakens Elayne's relationships with both Aviendha and Rand, which otherwise could have been interesting.
9. Moiraine
I have far too much to say about my baby Moiraine. I'm including New Spring in these arcs, and reading that made me want to reread the whole series in a new light. I love her. I love her I love her I love her. And to me New Spring makes her arc in the main series both more powerful and more tragic. Seeing in New Spring just how determined she is and also how much self-doubt she carries and how much her Aes Sedai serenity of the later books is disguising inner turmoil is so rewarding. I wish we had gotten to see so so much more of it. I know that she has to be mysterious to our main characters, but I don't think she has to be mysterious to the readers, particularly once we are more than a few books into a fourteen book series. To that end, I know why she had to go away (she is the Merlin character after all!), but I wish she had come back a few book sooner and we could have seen literally any interiority about reckoning with her time in the Tower of Ghenjei. The Moiraine in New Spring would have been going CRAZY both leading up to knowing she had to go through that archway and while stuck in the tower--even if she was being tortured, which she also would have withstood for a while. The fact that she couldn't take action that it was such a passive way of supporting Rand and his mission would have killed her, but also she would have been so very resolute, and I wish we could have seen that more. Instead, she just like shows up right before the last battle, speaks her piece, goes to help Rand (presumably thinking she's going to die??), and we see none of it from her POV! She never sees Siuan again and because we can't see into her mind that's just like...chill?? And obviously I hate the book pairing her with Thom, particularly her *offering to give up her abilities* for him. I see what it adds for his character arc, but what does it add for hers? Plus there is literally no reason to remove her powers and give her that powerful ter'angreal instead. That's just RJ's obsession with disempowering women and I despise it.
10. Siuan
Oh Siuan. My other baby Siuan. I'm only ranking her arc this high because I think it had a lot of potential to be telling an interesting story, but I think her ending was so horrible I can barely think about it. There was so much potential here to be telling a story about how you can have power and influence and be important even if you are less powerful and that the strength to manipulate and steamroll people is not the only way to make a difference, but I feel like this would have been a much more interesting message if she was the only (or one of the few) powerful women to get knocked down like this rather than it happening to literally every woman with power at the beginning of the series in one way or another. I particularly hated that with Siuan they did this knocking her down a peg in a way that made her younger and pretty for an old man (when she was only like 40 in the first place I might add!)--and she also started acting younger in a way that felt strange. I liked her teaching Egwene, but why couldn't she have some of the teacher vibes Moiraine did? And the way she dies with no one noticing or caring and it making basically no difference to the plot is so horrible. And, I'm sorry, it's not what the character deserved. Nor was it in line with the message I thought her arc was trying to send about the ability to have an impact no matter how unpowerful in traditional ways. And it happens because she doesn't stay with a man?!?! No one even knows she mattered after she was deposed and it’s all so unfair.
11. Lan
I feel like Lan doesn't really grow that much as a character since he spends the entire series basically just expecting to die in various ways at different times. Even with New Spring I don't feel like we get a good sense of what his character is meant to be doing besides impacting other characters in the series. I am not against his relationship with Nynaeve, but I don't think the books flesh it out very well. And I'm still mad he ends the series mad at Moiraine--where is their New Spring dynamic of him vibing with her even when he's annoyed with her? Obviously his leading the Malkieri into the blight really hit me in the feels and was a great culmination of his plight, however, which is why I still think the arc deserves an honorable mention.
12. Thom
Thom's arc is basically just from hating Aes Sedai to marrying Moiraine, and getting continually paired with weirdly young women. I guess he learns to overcome prejudice based on his nephew's death? I do like the role he plays with Rand and Mat and their respective character development as they grow up from the Two Rivers to adventurers, but I'm not sure that's really his arc or development. But for that I'm giving him a higher ranking than his Moiraine arc alone deserves.
13. Tuan
I don't think think Tuan gets that much of an arc. While she becomes Empress, she doesn't seem to grow or change her mind on things during the series, and mostly she puts aside things she doesn't like very much with intentions of dealing with them later. BUT I like how her and Mat challenge each other and engage with each other, and I think the internal growth is somewhat implied or is something that would have happened if we had had more time with her. I wish the entire Seanchan plot was more resolved at series end, but that's not specific to Tuan.
14. Loial
This may be controversial, but I don't like Loial's arc very much! I don't think he needed to get married! I'm glad he seems happy about it in the end, but it feels unnecessary. I loved him adventuring and writing his book and being sort of childlike in a really endearing way, but everything with his mom and with Erith took him out of the story for a long time and seemed to be sending the message that ultimately everyone wants to settle down. Let him explore and write his book and be a late bloomer! Idk.
15. Min
I am ranking Min even below the characters that only have a fraction of an arc because I loved Min so much in the earlier books and I hate the way the series treated her subsequently. When we first meet her she is determined to be fully herself, despite a talent that makes her stand out and a personality inclined against confrontation. She's brave and interesting! I hated watching her become more ladylike for Rand, and for a while essentially being absolutely nothing more than a lover and comfort for Rand. I really wish we had had more lingering payoff for the many books that Min was reading and trying to parse out what the prophecies meant, but it felt like Cadsuane was basically like "yes I agree" and then...it was no longer about Min having figured it out?
And just for fun, here would be my list of these same characters from ones I like most to ones I like least (although I like them all tbh!!)
Characters:
Moiraine (main trilogy + new spring)
Nynaeve
Egwene
Moiraine (main trilogy only)
Aviendha
Mat
Siuan (main trilogy AND main trilogy + new spring)
Loial
Rand
Lan (main trilogy + new spring)
Perrin
Lan (main trilogy only)
Faile
Elayne
Tuan
Thom
#no one asked for this but here we are!#sorry if your fave isn't here I literally just picked the people I thought had significant character arcs#plus a few folks we spent a lot of time with so it felt necessary I guess#I feel like I got grumpy in a lot of my reviews but I actually really like the characters and putting them in order was really hard!!#I just wished for more for many of them because they deserved better#narratively speaking#wot book spoilers#wheel of time
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Hi! I love you! It’s finals season and I’m barely scraping by and suffering lots, so I could use a fanfic to live through! What about a mini fic where Peter is doing some homework in his room (compound/tower, or just Tony’s house but Morgan doesn’t exist) and he has a pretty bad fever. Tony notices he’s getting frustrated really easy and checks his temperature and then lots of cuddles?
Another mini-fic! This time staring a feverish, grumpy little rain cloud Peter and a very dad-like Mr. Stark. :) Very very very mild angst and some good old-fashioned fluff. Oh. And Peter gets a hug.
Finals Week Heat 980 words
Peter sat at his desk in Mr Stark’s workshop and grasped a fistful of his hair. It was only Wednesday, and he was already burnt out. Finals had been going strong all week, and he still had two more to go. His worst subjects. Spanish and world history. He released his hair in favor of rubbing his eyes and stared at his notes. As they blurred in and out of focus he slammed his fist down on the desk.
“Easy, Pete,” Mr. Stark called from across the room. “ What’s got you all worked up over there?”
“Nothing!” Peter snapped before he could stop himself. But he was so exhausted he ached and his head was starting to throb. It was making him unreasonably irritable. “I'm not worked up! I’m just tired.”
Mr. Stark arched a single brow. “It’s only eight o’clock.”
“Does it matter? I’ve been busy for days! I think I’m allowed to be tired.” Peter flourished a dismissive hand and directed his attention to his notes. “Just go back to your work and leave me alone.”
“Hey,” Mr. Stark warned. But for some reason, Peter didn’t take the hint, He visibly bristled and narrowed his eyes.
“What?” he aggressively shouted. “I know you’re in the middle of at least three projects and I have to study. Actually. You know what? I’ll just take this to my room. It’s whatever.” Immediately, he started haphazardly stuffing things into his bag, ready to flee the situation before it escalated further.
“Nuh-uh, no way, no how. Sit back down Kid.” Mr. Stark stood up, taking on an authoritative posture. “We need to talk about your attitude.”
Peter knew he should listen, and any other day he probably would. However, the tension in his body was wound so tight, he snapped instead. “I don’t want to sit down and don't want to talk to you. I just want to get this done.”
Mr. Stark's jaw clenched. “Sit. Down. Now.”
Knowing it was best to give in, Peter threw himself into his chair and crossed his arms tightly over his chest. Whether it was out of indignation or because an unexpected chill had consumed him, he wasn’t sure. Rather than contemplate it, he glared across the room.
“What are you studying for?”
“Finals. You know that,” Peter spat.
Mr. Stark’s face remained stoney as he regarded Peter with scrutiny. A few beats passed. He sighed and reached up to pinch the bridge of his nose. “You’ve been at it for hours with the flashcards, Kiddo. Why don’t you just call it a night?”
“Because I happen to like my 4.0 GPA, Mr. Stark!” The sarcasm was thick but the sentiment was genuine. He was at the top of his class and the pressure to remain in that slot was high. “If I don’t study, I don’t get to keep it.”
Mr. Stark's head tilted to the side. “Are you feeling okay?”
“I'm fine,” Peter grumbled. “Why?”
“You’re not usually this snippy with me,” Mr. Stark casually replied. He spanned the distance between them and ran his hand through Peter’s hair, down to his neck. The contact Made Peter shiver. “You’re burning up, Buddy,” Tony said, his voice significantly softer. “FRIDAY? Get me a tempt, will you?”
“Mr. Parker’s temperature is at one-hundred and two point three degrees.”
Mr. Stark nodded and gave Peter’s shoulder a squeeze.“Well, that settles it. You’re definitely done studying for tonight. The good news is, you’ll have a few extra days to review the material because you are definitely not going to school to-’”
“I have to go!” Peter growled. “I have finals to take!” He wished he didn’t. Staying home sounded idea.
“Nope. Zip it. The adult is talking.” Mr Stark, sent him a look, daring him to say anything else. Peter snapped his mouth shut. “You’re not going to school with a fever of a hundred and two. Not happening. You can make up the test.”
Peter slumped in his seat. “I want to be done with them,” he mumbled.
“And I want you to feel better,” Tony replied without missing a beat. His fingers went back to Peter’s hair. “You’re clearly miserable, Buddy,”
“Yeah,” Peter agreed, his eyes beginning to water. He gathered a tremulous breath and closed his eyes. “Yeah, you’re right. I don’t feel good.”
“Okay, Kiddo. You’re going to be okay.” Mr. Stark wiped a stray tear from Peter’s cheek and hauled him into a firm hug. “Let’s get upstairs, hmm?”
Inside the elevator, Peter leaned into Mr. Stark. “Sorry, I yelled at you.”
“I’d say it’s okay, but I definitely don’t want you biting my head off like that,” Mr. Stark said. He paused to swipe the bangs off of Peter’s forehead. Probably gauging the fever again, in the process. “It would be much easier if you just told me when you were sick.”
Peter sighed, unsure of how to explain how difficult it was to satisfy literally everyone’s expectations. “I didn’t want to-” he began, but Mr. Stark cut him off quickly.
“Another time, Bud. We’ll talk about it another time.” They had arrived at the penthouse. Mr. Stark stepped inside first and gestured down the hall. “For now, go get in your pajamas and meet me on the couch. I’ll fetch you some meds, and we’ll watch a movie until you conk out on me.”
Peter huffed a small laugh, knowing that’s exactly what would happen. He’d arrive at the couch wearing his comfiest pajamas, soft blanket in hand. Mr. Stark would give him some pills and sit in the corner of the furniture. He’d allow Peter to burrow into his side and, together, they would pick a movie. Probably something science fiction. It didn’t really matter. Mr. Stark was right. He’d be warm and comfortable and sound asleep before they made it a quarter of the way in.
Super happy to see you again @yescaptainmarvel123875 I feel like it's been a while! Hope you are doing well and enjoy this fic!!
#happyaspie mini fic#<check out that tag#fic under 1k#tumblr mini fic#sick peter parker#fever#grumpiness#very very very mild angst#peter parker#tony stark#spider-man#iron man#irondad and spiderson#marvel#mcu#irondad#irondad fic
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Tens and Chops, Vol. 1 (A Grab Bag Episode)
We gotta clear the decks ahead of the VIIB Awards, so it’s a grab bag episode! Ben, NiNi, and Shan talk a bunch of shows that we couldn’t NOT talk about, and award the fall’s Girl You Tried.
Grab a drink and a snack and join us for one of the most varied episodes we've had on the show.
Timestamps
The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:01:15 - Kiseki: Dear To Me
00:12:20 - Dangerous Romance
00:26:05 - Love In Translation
00:41:14 - I Cannot Reach You
00:54:43 - My Personal Weatherman
01:07:01 - If It's With You
01:15:38 - Absolute Zero
01:21:05 - My Dear Gangster Oppa
01:33:32 - Middleman's Love
01:49:07 - Final Thoughts, and Girl, You Tried
The Conversation Transcripts!
Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.
We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.
Please send our volunteers your thanks!
00:00:00 - Welcome
NiNi
Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.
Ben
And there it is. I’m Ben.
NiNi
I’m NiNi.
Ben
And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.
NiNi
Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.
Ben
We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.
NiNi
And I review from a romance and drama lens.
Ben
So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…
NiNi
If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…
Ben
And if you generally just love simping…
NiNi
There is a lot of simping on this podcast…
Ben
We are the show for you!
00:01:15 - Tens and Chops
Ben
And we're back! We've made it to the Grab Bag for this season of The Conversation. We've named this one “Tens and Chops: Volume 1.” I really hope we have a collection of these to do a smash cut off in the future.
NiNi
So looking forward to it. Definitely looking forward to it. Absolutely looking forward to it. I named it Volume 1 for a reason.
Ben
We have nine shows to talk about plus a bonus segment. Because there are nine shows to talk about, we have brought in help for this one. We have brought in our drama expert, Shan, who is with us again.
Shan
Hello people.
NiNi
Ah, that sweet, sweet smell of a great guest. I love it. Okay, all right, let's dive in, people.
Ben
All right. So, Shan, we're finally into the winter. Let's discuss the fall shows as an experience. As you know, I was grumpy as hell coming out of the summer through the fall with the state of BL.
How are you feeling about all these various shows?
Shan
Your grumpiness was not unfounded. I don't think the fall season was particularly strong. We hit a slump. A lot of shows just flopped right at the end after strong starts, a lot of shows just didn't take off. There were some things that we were really excited about and then when we actually got to them it was…just so fucking disappointing. [laughs]
I think the strong start to the year and some of our expectations for these shows maybe set us up to be a little extra disappointed in how the season went.
Ben
Before we get into all of the shows individually, NiNi, for the sake of our audience, who may want to skip around this episode, please read the list of shows we're about to discuss.
NiNi
[clears throat] Don't mind if I do! So, in this episode we shall be discussing Kiseki: Dear To Me from Taiwan, Dangerous Romance from Thailand, Love In Translation also from Thailand, I Cannot Reach You from Japan, My Personal Weatherman also from Japan, If It's With You also from, you guessed it, Japan, Absolute Zero from Thailand, My Dear Gangsta Oppa from Thailand-ish, and Middleman's Love the most Thai thing I have seen. [laughs]
Ben
All right. So we're going to be here for a while. I hope you grabbed your drinks and a snack.
NiNi
Put us on pause. Go pee, come back. Or you could just take your phone to the bathroom. Whatever you're doing, I'm not judging you.
Ben
I am, don't worry.
[NiNi laughs]
00:04:20 - Kiseki: Dear To Me
NiNi
Alright, let's start with Kiseki. Ben, what is Kiseki about?
Ben
It's about how nothing was learned from HIStory 3: Make Our Days Count, and that once again I have been made to suffer for things I did not do.
Kiseki: Dear to Me is a Taiwanese BL about a well-performing high school student late in his studies who gets wrapped up in the gang politics of his local area, falls in love with a gangster, and complications ensue? There's a side couple that's also a bunch of gangsters who end up stealing the show.
Shan
[laughs] I was going to say, I'm pretty sure this show is actually about Ai Di, but okay.
Ben
It is a Lin Pei Yu joint, and we were expecting so much more from her, and yet here we are talking about it in the Grab Bag.
NiNi
Mm-mm-mm. So, Shan, come on in here. Give me, like, a word or a short phrase—something pithy—for the audience.
Shan
Hmm… The pithy description of this show? “Chaotic, but in an awesome way.”
NiNi
Interesting…
Ben
I will agree with that. This show was fun as hell to watch when it wasn't enraging for me.
NiNi
[laughs] I don't know. I was watching it and literally losing the thread while I was watching it.
Shan
Your mistake was ever trying to grasp the thread in the first place.
NiNi
You right, you're right. I made a mistake. My bad. I shouldn't have tried. But—[laughs]—the show was clearly trying, so I thought I had to try, too.
Listen, I often find Taiwanese shows hard to follow, personally, and I know that's a me thing. But it's something about where they choose to start and end their episodes, I think. I lose the thread.
Ben
I do agree with that. I don't think that, at least the BL tradition we've been exposed to, values episodic structure in a way that is recognizable to those of us who are probably grounded in the American sitcom tradition. A lot of their shows, we tend to remember as a whole, not as individual parts, and that did not work very well here.
You were not the only person struggling from episode to episode remembering what the fuck was going on. I struggled as well. It was difficult watching this show because I didn't really know thematically what the show wanted to be about. While I really liked the work everyone did—I think all of the actors at every level were really dialed in and it was fun for some of the cameos. I will never return to this particular show because this show involves Wayne Song and Huang Chun Chih as gangsters who are rivals with the leads we care about.
They have Wayne playing this super-violent, kind of out-of-control gang leader who has to die, and he does, and this is a bad choice because it's not like the rest of us fucking forgot about HIStory 3: Make Our Days Count, and then they released a special episode that is just, “By the way, Chun Chih's character was mooning after him the whole time and now he's sad.” Why? Why was this the choice? Have you not learned that we don't want you to kill these guys? Shit!
NiNi
I think definitely the cameos across the board lost me—A, because I don't watch that much Taiwanese BL, so a lot of it was like, “Wait, who's this guy? Who's this guy? Who's this guy? Why are they here? What are they doing?” I recognize a couple of faces from a couple of things, but mostly I was just confused.
Shan
This show was like 50% powered by cameos. That is what kept people excited week over week and talking about the show. Spotting the faces was really fun.
So, NiNi, as the resident Taiwanese BL apologist around here, you are absolutely correct that it is often hard to follow the story. The writing is always the weakest point. What has always been my favorite thing about the shows we get from Taiwan is that there is a real connection, I think, between the physical stuff, the intimacy work, and the emotions of the characters, and they kind of really nail those relationship dynamics and that kind of character work.
But the stories—the plots—have always been kind of a mess, even in my favorite Taiwanese BLs? And this one really took the cake. It was all over the place. I could not at any point in this show, find my footing in the plot, or what was supposed to be happening, or why I was supposed to care.
That didn't really bother me because this is definitely a show that encourages you to just be along for the ride, and kind of react to scenes, and not worry too much about the overarching story. And that worked for me in this show enough that I had a good time. Would I say that it's good or well written? Absolutely not. [laughs]
And Ben's complaints about the way that they used those actors from Make Our Days Count are absolutely valid. I kind of couldn't believe the audacity, putting Wayne Song in the show just to kill him off.
Ben
Audacity is the right call, bestie. Thank you very much.
Shan
Right, the audacity! Like, it was not a cool thing to do, and they shouldn’t have done it. So those criticisms are completely fair about this show.
NiNi
There are things about this that I absolutely liked. I did enjoy the couples. I enjoyed the unhinged-ness of them, but I couldn't follow their story, so I was just kind of vibing—which, totally my style. And when I was just vibing I was havin’ a good time.
If I had to score Kiseki: Dear to Me. The couples are great, the story’s a mess. I'd give it a 6 ½.
Ben
Shan?
Shan
I gave it a 7.5, which was probably generous because I just had so much fun watching it, but I can't claim that it is structurally sound.
Ben
Shan, like the rest of MDL, rated this show with her coochie.
NiNi
That is staying in.
[all laugh]
Shan
What did you score it, Ben?
Ben
What do you think I scored it, bestie?
Shan
I feel like you scored it real low, because you were pissed about Wayne Song. [laughs]
Ben
I was pissed.
NiNi
Ben was definitely offended, so it got a 5 or less.
Shan
Oh yeah, for sure.
Ben
What do you think I gave it?
Shan
3.
Ben
NiNi
5.
Ben
I gave it a 5. We're laughing a little bit, but legitimately that was so upsetting. And your show was stupid! There wasn't even a point to it. It was just shock, and it felt mean, like you're still salty with us about the HIStory franchise. You are not getting above a 5 from me, despite the fact that Louis Chang and Nat Chen were so much fun to watch, and how much I enjoyed the work between Taro Lin and Hsu Kai. I had a great time watching all four of these men and all the people who cameoed in this.
NiNi
Why do you think there was no Tang Yi and Shao Fei?
Ben
Because there's a cash grab for doing HIStory 6: Freed.
Shan
I want HIStory 6: Freed, and I want it fucking yesterday. Where is our show? [Ben laughs]
NiNi
Alright, so Ben gave it a 5. I gave it a 6.5. Shan gave it a very generous 7.5. Somebody do math.
Ben
That's a 6.
Shan
You can call it a 6.
NiNi
It's a 6 for Kiseki: Dear to Me. Shoving it off, let's move on to the next one, which we are about to trash.
00:12:20 - Dangerous Romance
NiNi
Ben, tell the world about Dangerous Romance.
Shan
Oh, ho ho ho! Here we go!
Ben
Dangerous Romance—[sighs]—is about how a windmill… cannot be powered…without the wind.
[all break down for prolonged laughing fit]
NiNi
Please! I can’t stand your ass!
Shan
Had to be done.
NiNi
Okay, bring it back, guys. Bring it back.
Ben
Dangerous Romance purports to be an inter class romance set in a high school between a very smart scholarship student who's super poor, because his parents are dead and it’s just him and his older brother, who's kind of irresponsible with money; and a rich kid who's kind of a pompous bully in school—has no valuable skills of any sort to bring to the table. The two of them crossed paths and are drawn to each other. There are things that happen in the show, I guess. Soccer is a big deal, at some point in this. There's very much a repeated High School Musical TROYYY bit that happens multiple times over three episodes.
[NiNi and Shan laugh]
NiNi
Oh, God, you shady bitch. Carry on.
Ben
It's trash. This show was fucking horrible. This show started out being so fucking interesting. There was the whole notion about Kanghan being just a stupid as hell bully, who only had money on his side, who was getting wrecked constantly by Sailom, this very smart, poor kid.
And then after episode 2, it all went away, and it was about how Kanghan is a sad rich boy whose mom is dead. And so because his mom is dead, his dad just spoils him rotten, and he just wants his dad to treat him like a real boy, or whatever. I don't give a fuck. This show was so fucking trash.
[NiNi laughs]
Shan, you're a fan of Shameless. Please explain to the people why this show was so offensive to you.
Shan
For the record, I think I dropped this show Week 4, because I was just so fucking pissed [laughs] about what they were doing with Sailom.
A little background here: I grew up as a poor person—lived in poverty for like the first 20 years of my life. And I have always had a big interest in stories about class disparity, stories about surviving poverty, stories about families that get through those kinds of challenges because I lived it. And so I'm always very interested to see how it's depicted in fiction. So when the show started, I was so thrilled to finally see a Thai BL that seemed to be taking class disparity seriously? That seemed to want to explore what it actually means when a wealthy person and a poor person are kind of thrown together and have to figure out how to get on the same page across their differences.
Sailom had some really serious shit set up for him. Him and his brother are in really hard times. They're in deep, deep debt. He's working multiple jobs to try to pay off this debt that they've inherited, and he has this fucking rich bitch bully on his ass, causing him problems, fucking with his jobs, fucking with his money, spreading rumors about him, costing him work!
I think a lot of people who fell for this show maybe forgot—but I sure fucking didn't—that Kang spread rumors that Sailom was a fucking pedophile, and cost him all of his tutoring students. This is not minor shit that they set up at the beginning of this show to explain the adversarial relationship between these two characters. So I expected them to take it seriously. I expected this to be a serious narrative about how those two could get past those conflicts and come together in a romance—which obviously they were going to. But, that's not what we got at all.
We didn't get a realistic look at what it means to be poor and to be living with a crushing debt that weighs you down every single day. We didn't get a realistic look at the dynamics between somebody who's grown up like Sailom with the experiences that he's had and the issues that he has to carry every single day, and how he might think about someone like Kang and how he might view him with disdain, and with resentment. We didn't get any of that. We didn't get a realistic look at how these two could come past the initial bullying and the initial things that Kang did to fuck with his life and his money.
This is life-or-death stakes. They showed us that. Him and his brother are actually getting beat because of this debt on a regular basis. This is not a light issue. And so to set up all of that in the first two episodes, and then immediately pivot, by the third episode, to a bog-standard BL with these two just kind of flirtin’ with each other, and doing all the classic tropes, and Sailom apparently just fucking forgetting all the things that Kang did to him because of one isolated moment?
None of it made any sense to me. I felt like they flipped a switch and changed Sailom's character from episode 2 to 3, and he never came back. I stopped watching the show in episode 4, but I continued to follow the discourse, so I know that the real Sailom never came back.
I just don't understand what happened with this show. I don't understand how the same writers could have written those initial episodes and that set up and then carried out the show in the way that they did. I actually found it offensive. I am still pissed off about it! You can hear it in my voice, I'm sure! This was not a joke to me. I was very upset with what this show did. It's inexcusable.
Ben
Kill ‘em, bestie. [laughs]
NiNi
Murder them.
For me, the problem—the main problem with the show—was that the show was about Kanghan and it should have been about Sailom. That's really it in a nutshell. If the show was about Sailom, if it was about Sailom being the main character and you getting into Sailom’s head, and seeing Sailom’s life through Sailom’s eyes, and seeing how Sailom deals with his life, then that's the show that I wanted to see.
You're talking about the serious shit that's going down. Kang literally shows up at Sailom’s house with a gun! Have we forgotten about this?
Ben
After his friend said, “Bruh, I think the whole gun thing is maybe going too far.”
NiNi
None of these characters are consistent. The characters that are set up in the beginning, the ones that you are interested in, the stories that you think, “Okay, this is what they're setting up.” None of that happens. Those characters vanish basically overnight.
Saifah was set up to be this kind of charming, feckless older brother who can't be relied upon, but Sailom really loves him. He works with old people, and he kind of steals from them, and scams them a little bit. That's an interesting character. And then one day his debt collector sends a new guy, and the new guy is somebody he went to high school with. And I was like, “Well, this is about to be interesting!” [buzzer sound], I was wrong. No, it was not interesting.
Ben
It's really frustrating, because there's actually a fairly decent small plot in the middle of the show where Saifah has schemed his way into working for the same family. He's been dealing with a work related injury, and the grandma pays for some expensive European medicine for him. He doesn't realize this is for him, and he thinks about stealing it and replacing it with a generic. There’s a really interesting moment where he chooses not to steal from them and then learns that it was a gift intended for him, that is this really decent moment in the show which only further pisses me off.
Every now and then, this show seemed to understand some of the complex dynamics it was about, and then went right back to fuckin’ it up for no reason.
Shan
I think NiNi is right that the main problem was that the show should have been Sailom’s show and instead they made it about Kanghan, and I don't know why they did that. The first two episodes were clearly rooted in Sailom’s story, and that's what really, I think, threw me.
Ben
Chimon is also the older, veteran actor. Why didn't they believe in him? Like, he could have carried this show. I do not know why they decided to lean on Perth. This is the second time this year they have tried to lean on Perth and it has not been a good choice.
NiNi
I think that Perth is a good actor but he needs a strong lead. He's a follow, but he's a good follow if he has a strong lead. Trying to put him in the lead position? He works best when he's pulling off of somebody.
Shan
Mhmm. If they had let Chimon anchor this, and him follow, I agree with you, NiNi.
NiNi
And then why did they even bother View and June? Why did they make them get out of bed?
Ben
Ohh, are we talking about the teacher-student line between View and June? I'm not.
Shan
I'm so glad I was already gone for that! Whew! I don't even want to know.
NiNi
It wasn't even a thing, though!
Ben
I'm not discussing it, I will not.
NiNi
Listen, honestly, the best parts of the show were, A, the first two episodes, B, everything that Euro did? Euro was great. I loved Euro.
Ben
Okay. I will say that. Let us not walk away from this without shouting out Euro. They do not give big boys a lot of love and respect in this field and, Euro. You did good work, sir. You should have been allowed to kiss—which of the twins was in this?
NiNi
I think it was JJ.
Ben
JJ! You should have been allowed to kiss JJ in this show!
NiNi
I also did not hate Marc and Pawin in this. They were not bad.
Ben
They were not good. [laughs]
NiNi
I didn't say they—I said I didn't hate them, and they were not bad.
Shan
Damning with faint praise indeed.
NiNi
And you know how I feel about Pawin!
Ben
The problem with this is, again, like the pieces were there. But, did you know that a windmill—[all laugh]—cannot function without the wind? If you're tired of this bit in the podcast, watch the show!
Shan
You can only imagine the horrors awaiting you.
Ben
There's a class difference between Kanghan—did you know his name means ‘windmill’?—anyway.
And so there's a class difference between the two of them. And there's a class difference between Nawa, Pawin's character who's rich, and Guy, Marc's character who was poor. They're friends with the other leads. There was a real opportunity to tell a story about, how do these dynamics play out where people mix? There's an egalitarian aspect to all going to the same schooling system together, even if some of you are there by scholarship, or because your mom works for the place in the case of Euro's character Auto. Marc's character Guy, he's probably there on a football related scholarship because he's an athlete.
Like there's an interesting thing to say here, but they did nothing with it. It is such a waste of all the goddamn talent on this show, and it was a waste of 12 weeks of my life. This show was bad. This show was offensive. And this show was stupid.
All right, ratings.
NiNi
I gave it a…5.
Ben
Shan?
Shan
Well, since I didn't actually finish the show, I didn't give it a formal rating, but y'all should know that it's, like, a 2 in my heart.
Ben
It is a 3 formally from me. I watched the whole fucking thing. It was shit and offensive. You get a 3 for that.
NiNi
So with 2, a 3, and a 5, I think that pulls you down towards the end of 3.5.
Ben
Oh yeah, it's bad.
NiNi
It's not good.
Ben
It's a 3.
Shan
Do not watch it.
Ben
Unless you need to understand that windmills require the wind to function.
NiNi
[Laughs] Oh, no.
Ben
And let's talk about the fucking ending of this trash piece of shit. The tag of this show is these two characters engaged in sex work play where the poor kid is playing an escort who has to take care of his rich client.
What the absolute fuck was this?
NiNi
I wanted to vomit.
Shan
I actually can't believe that happened. I saw it. I saw the GIFs on Tumblr, and I thought I was having a fucking hallucination or something.
NiNi
Sex work role play…Okay, anyway. So, on that note—
Ben
It's a chop!
Shan
Well that was a definite chop.
NiNi
Chop.
Ben
Three chops. [slams desk] It's over.
[NiNi laughs]
00:26:05 - Love In Translation
Ben
On to the next show—oh, good, it finally gets better. [laughs]
Shan
This is a good one!
Ben
All right, great.
NiNi
The next show on the list, now that we've gotten that out of the way, is Love in Translation. Ben, what is Love in Translation about?
Ben
Love in Translation is a workplace BL in which two characters from different backgrounds come together to run a convenience store in Bangkok. One of them's name is Phumjai. He is a Thai national who comes from a seemingly well off family, who is obsessed with an idol named Tammy. He learns that Tammy is interested in picking up a potential partner in Thailand, but she wants that partner to be able to speak Mandarin and she would like for that character to also be an entrepreneur. Seeing that there's a chance here with Tammy, he decides he wants to formally learn Chinese and goes to a, like, small business association meeting or whatever, to see about starting something up.
Meanwhile, we have Yang Yan Feng, who is a Chinese national who is here to open up a shop in a very specific point because of backstory reasons involving his dad, I guess. The two of these characters cross paths and don't end up liking each other at first, but circumstances come together, and the only Black character in Thai BL this year ends up connecting the two of them and they form a little shop together. Yang agrees to also teach Phumjai Mandarin and flirt with Tammy on his behalf. Very many hijinks ensue, but this show ended up being one of my favorites of the year.
Shan, you ended up really enjoying this show. Tell us the things you liked about the show in the early weeks when we were deciding whether or not we needed to give ourselves La Pluie-level brainrot over it to convince people to watch it.
Shan
It ended up being really enjoyable. I was a little bit more skeptical going in than Ben. I'm not as inclined to sitcom style in BL as Ben is. Like, I think you kind of find it very comforting and familiar, whereas I kind of feel it's sometimes an awkward match of styles, and so I wasn't quite as convinced going in that I was gonna love it. But I enjoyed it a lot, and I think what I liked so much about this show is that, at its core, it's really just about kind people who are mostly just doing their best to be decent to each other and do right by each other. And they have misunderstandings. And there's a lot of comedy in those misunderstandings. There's silly stuff. There's fights, including physical fights that get pretty outrageous. There's characters making mistakes, but it feels like everybody's really well-intentioned and really earnestly trying their best. And I just think it's kind of impossible not to like a show like that.
I also just really appreciated that this show—it had a good cast of characters. There was a lot of quirky folks. When I was watching it, I was reminded of shows like Superstore, where it's a little bit sitcom-y, you're in a store, you've got this big cast of personalities that you can kind of call on for comedy bits, as needed. And I thought it worked really, really well.
And the romance between Phumjai and Yang, it was really nice. They just kinda liked each other once they got past their initial misunderstandings, and they got more comfortable with each other over time as they worked together on this project—on this store. They really got to know each other.
Phumjai was fixated with this influencer Tammy originally, and he had a really natural progression away from that crush and toward developing feelings for Yang because of the authentic time that they were spending together and the real bond that they were building. And I always just find those kinds of romances really compelling. They're making something together, and that makes them want to be good to each other, and it makes them see the best in each other, and then become interested in each other. And I just think we don't get enough naturally building romances like that in the genre.
Ben
NiNi, since we successfully bullied you into watching this show, what did you think of it?
[NiNi laughs]
NiNi
It was deathly cute. I enjoyed every single minute of the show. I liked the internationalist perspective of it because you've got Odo and then one of the workers in the store, I think, is part Thai? And then Yang is Chinese, so there's some fun internationalist stuff happening in the show that you don't always see coming out of Thailand. Ngern was there.
Ben
Oh, are we talking about that now? For those of you who give a shit, who have been in the genre before 2gether the series, who were there before even SOTUS, Ngern Anupart, who played Earn in Love Sick the series, and also played the lead role in Waterboyy the movie, and was in a terrible Thai drama called Part Time this series, which we all attempted just for him.
Shan
Did you memorize that man's resume?
Ben
Of course.
NiNi
He did.
Ben
Ngern Anupart is back with us in BL, and he's swole now, girls. You should watch.
[NiNi laughs]
Shan
I will say, I'm a Love Sick girlie. I did love Earn, the character in that. I love Ngern, the actor. I was very happy to see him in this. His character was perhaps the most annoying in this show. [laughs]
NiNi
I loved it!
Ben
It was so funny that he was so annoying! I loved him in this!
Shan
He played Phumjai’s brother, Phojai, who was a classic overbearing older sibling who just could not let Phumjai have any space to live and learn and make mistakes. He just was so on top of him all the time and making him lose confidence in a way that I think was well-intentioned, but just extremely wrong-headed. Just getting in the way of his brother's success as he was constantly professing his intention to do the opposite. It was a really good storyline, to be clear, like it was really well done.
NiNi
It was really great and the other great part is that the whole time he's dating Phumjai’s good friend who also works at the store, and they're kinda working together to make the store a success in the background but they're doing it all wrong. Phojai and Tag are adorable together, but Phojai’s a little closeted. So it gets a little complicated. But overall, it ended up being real cute. There is a fantastic gag with some disguises that I swear to God was so hilarious.
Ben
Highlight of the year for me. [laughs]
NiNi
This show was funny. It was sweet. It was… pretty hot, actually.
Shan
Right! High heat.
Ben
This show does comedy really well. The comedic timing of this show is so intentional. It was intentional when they were filming it, and it was intentional when they were editing it. It isn't perfect, but it's intentional and it lands really well. This show was so funny in the early episodes when it was leaning more into the sitcom bits.
NiNi
I found it funny all the way through, because I always find some of the humor in the pathos that comes later down the line. Like it was so funny when Phumjai and Yang went on the practice date because Phumjai is getting ready to go on this date with Tammy. And he's going on this practice date, and all he's thinking about on this practice date is, “What does Yang want to do?”
So he shows up at the practice date with green bread, a baseball mitt, like. [laughs] That's like, so much going on, and I'm like looking at it like, “Oh, this is so sweet and so funny because of course he would bring a freaking baseball mitt because he thinks that Yang would have a good time. This is adorable.”
And then the end, when Phojai gets kidnapped—follow us, girlies. Phojai gets kidnapped because Phumjai is paying off this debt—there's a little mafia shit going down in the end. But Phojai gets kidnapped for, like, months, and then when they finally pay off the kidnappers and they've released Phojai, you discover that Phojai has actually been kind of running the shit in the mafia for the last two months! [laughs] He’s become, like, a trusted lieutenant.
Of course you took over, because you are an elder sibling. This is what you do. You got them organized. You made them respect you. I respect that as an elder sibling myself. I was just like, “That's exactly what I would do.” It was so funny. I enjoyed it entirely all the way through. I did not mind Daou’s wig.
Shan
Thank you! Can we talk about the wig? This is very important to me.
[NiNi laughs]
Ben
No, because first I have to get very serious about how good the show actually was. We will undercut the seriousness of which I will talk about how good the show was with you talking about how terrible Daou’s wig was.
[NiNi laughs]
So, for those of you who listen to The Conversation podcast, you know that NiNi and I don't always see eye-to-eye when it comes to really huge power dynamic differentials between characters. This show is one of the very rare examples of a workplace set show where the workplace mattered and also the leads were equal to each other. One of the caveats of Thai economic politics is that foreigners cannot hold majority stake ownership in a Thai corporation. So despite Yang's wealth that he brings to the table and determination to open up a store in Thailand, he cannot have majority stake.
Phumjai, who doesn't bring any money to the table, brings the fact that he is a Thai national to the table. So the two of them have equal ownership in the store—Phumjai slightly has more. We think Phumjai might be a bumbling idiot, but when asked to hire people because Yang, even though he has business sense, he doesn't know anyone. Phumjai actually hires competent people to help out in the store. Yeah, sure, he hired a bunch of femmes, but he hired really competent people to work in their store, and was actively engaged with trying to make the store successful. He was doing rapid iteration of various marketing strategies to try to get customers to engage with their store. He doesn't use the formal language that Yang does, but he is trying his best, and bringing even his own little money he has to try and make the store’s opening as successful as possible.
His interest in Tammy is also grounded in something real. We thought he was just lusting after an idol, but he had had a weird meet-cute with her when she had visited Thailand as a tourist. She asked him just to show her around because she was a little bit lost, and he basically went on a date with Tammy when she first came to Thailand. So his crush on her wasn't grounded on just the persona she presents in her show as an idol. He had had a genuine interaction with her and connection with her. And when he finally approaches her properly, Tammy is also receptive to his advances. Sure, they get complicated by the fact that this is a BL and she's a girl—she can't win. But she also takes that in stride. She is a character that is not dismissed along the way despite being a girl in a BL.
This show was legitimately so good at managing its character dynamics and how the characters played with each other. The growth between Yang and Phumjai together and personally was really well handled. This show struggles a little bit on the back end by getting a little bit silly with Yang's debt and the [sigh] mafia shit, but legitimately, this is one of the better shows that aired this year.
Now let's talk about Daou's wig.
Shan
Thank you! I've been holding it in so bravely.
[NiNi laughs]
Shan
Listen, listen! This is about respect. I need to pay respect to Daou, because that man had to wear this monstrosity of a bowl cut on his head. This horrible wig. The sideburns looked so fake. Every time you got a slight angle on the wig, you could tell that it was just a mop sitting on his head. Somehow he managed to deliver some of the hottest scenes of the entire year while he had that wig on his head. And you know, I just think that that deserves recognition.
Ben
Let's talk about the hottest scene of the year.
[NiNi laughs]
These people recognized that this was a show set in a convenience store—
Shan
Mmhmm.
Ben
—and they said, “Offroad and Daou,” and they were like, “Yeah, what's up?” “We need you guys to knock down these fucking shelves in this fucking convenience store, banging it out, because it's definitely a kink thing for Yang.” And they said, “Bet.”
Shan
In front of the security camera!
Ben
Yang absolutely has that footage saved somewhere.
Shan
[laughs] 100% he does.
Ben
I had an absolute blast with this show. This was legitimately one of my favorite shows of the year.
NiNi
I must concur, and I actually scored it a 10.
Ben
Holy shit.
NiNi
And the reason I scored it at 10 was that at the end they turned the store into a workers cooperative. So that gets 10 for me.
Shan
Bonus points from NiNi. [Shan and NiNi laugh]
Ben
All right, Shan, let's give it the real drama rankings.
Shan
I gave it an 8. I loved the show. I had a great time with it. Is undeniably messy, and the writing really went off the rails in the final couple episodes, and I can't pretend that that didn't happen. But I really loved it.
Ben
I gave the show an 8.5. The writing does unfortunately get a little bit messy towards the end. They didn't really know how to do the epilogue episode as cleanly as some of the more experienced teams do. But that's me being, like, fair from the drama ranking scale. In my heart, this show is a 9.
[Ben and Shan laugh]
This show was really good! It was a lot of fun to watch. People should go watch this show. It's a lot of fun.
NiNi
I am calling producer privilege to give the show a 9 from The Conversation.
Ben
I'm okay with it.
Shan
I'm good with it.
NiNi
We have an accord. Love in Translation gets a 9 from The Conversation. Daou and Offroad, thank you so much.
Ben
If you are a fan of BL, but you say you've gotten burned out on all of the school-based stuff, this is probably one of the better workplace shows.
But, at least you know, that a windmill…
[all laugh]
All right!
NiNi
Moving on.
00:41:14 - I Cannot Reach You
NiNi
Our next show—we have officially reached the Japanese portion.
Ben
Bangers Only section of this episode!
NiNi
The first show that we're going to talk about is an absolute banger: I Cannot Reach You. Ben, what is I Cannot Reach You about?
Ben
Oh, Shan gets this one.
NiNi
Shan!
Ben
Oh yeah!
NiNi
What is I Cannot Reach You about?
Shan
I Cannot Reach You Is a friends-to-lovers BL about two childhood friends who are in high school together, one of whom is a long-suffering pining gay boy, and one who is kind of an oblivious little chaos muffin. These character types might sound familiar to you, they are very common in Japanese BL. But what makes this story feel a little different is that it really sets out to deal with the deep angst that really comes in when you take friends to lovers seriously.
This is not a fluffy show, even though it is light throughout, they're really digging into the pain of being in love with your friend, the confusion of feeling your feelings for your friend start to change, the shock that can come along with it. Kakeru, who is the main character here, learns in episode one that his longtime best friend Yamato is in love with him, and this whole show is about his journey to accept and understand that, and then also figure out how he feels about it and how he might be open to their relationship changing.
It is, bar none, the best friends-to-lovers drama that I've ever seen in the BL genre. It is one of my absolute favorites of the year and on a short list of perfect shows that we got this year in BL.
Ben
NiNi?
NiNi
Well, damn. I love this unreservedly. I have, seriously, no notes. Actually, I have one note and the note that I wrote—I'm just gonna read it verbatim: I Cannot Reach You, to all of Japan, “Hey, guys, I'd like to introduce you all to this wonderful concept called talking. Please look at this adorable story about how talking can make your life better, and even help you find love.” [laughs] And that's my only note on I Cannot Reach You.
I agree with Shan. I think it's a perfect show. It's so cute. It's so deeply felt. It is so centrally angsty. It had me deep in my feelings in a way that I have not really felt since His - I Didn't Think I Would Fall in Love, which is another Japanese banger that I love. It's a great show, easy to catch up on. It's not very long. It is so perfect. It's perfectly balanced, perfectly paced, perfectly written, perfectly acted. I love it, unreservedly.
Ben
This was probably one of the best shows that I have ever watched in all of BL. Very few BLs actually properly capture the experience of being closeted as a kid in a way that is not triggering. I was closeted—we talked about this on the show. It sucks. Ohara Yamato was in love with his friend Ashiya Kakeru, and he did not make his attraction to Kakeru something that Kakeru had to deal with. It's other people, who are so irritated watching the two of them interact, who intervene and sort of force them to deal with this issue between them.
But here's the big thing. We can yell all day long about how characters should talk to each other and all this other stuff, and how communication is really important in romance and all these sorts of things. This is very true, but the thing is: when you're queer and you know the consequences of being publicly queer in this horrible, racist, homophobic hellscape, you don't want to force that on your friend. That's the crux of friends-to-lovers angst that is so critical.
Yamato really does love Kakeru, and he doesn't want to force Kakeru to deal with being queer. They don't say it directly, but that is a huge part of the hang up here. That is so perfectly captured in a way that is not triggering. It is so hard to be gay and alone when you're a teenager. There is a real complex restraint that grips you when you're 17 and gay and struggling, and in love with your best friend, where you don't want to be alone, and you really want to be with your friend. But being gay hurts, and you don't want to be responsible for inflicting that hurt on them, that I connected to directly in Yamato, that is portrayed so, so well by Maeda Kentaro.
And this show doesn't just do the whole “I love you” thing and then they make out or whatever. Like, “I liked you the whole time!” We watch Kakeru deal with the reality that he has to reframe his own relationship with one of his closest childhood friends. And he ends up finding attraction in himself as well, and he goes through the difficult process of that. That is not a switch that turns on. It's like, “Oh, shit, I guess I'm gay now because your desire for me is so strong.” What this show gets correct is, when you have a friends-to-lovers story, there's the drama of, “This relationship is really important to me, and most romances fail. Do I want to lose one of my critical relationships that underpins my understanding of who I am as myself for booty?” The answer in a lot of cases is no. That's a scary threshold to cross—your bestie is not your partner.
He considers what this means for their friendship and their relationship, and how there is a genuine need to respond to someone's feelings. That, even if he is your best friend, the way that he's felt like this about you for a long time means you can't just pretend that that wasn't there the whole time. Just because you were wrong about what you were perceiving in your friend doesn't mean you can just bottle it up and walk that shit back. It's so expertly handled in a way that is adorable.
Like both of you describe the show as cute, and that's sort of the point. This show managed to make some of the most difficult things about coming of age and being queer kind of palatable, and adorable, and really interesting to engage with. And it's so well done, the way that these boys play out the complexities here.
And then we get to Episode 6, and Shan will remember when Episode 6 aired, because I almost called her on her personal phone line after I finished Episode 6.
[NiNi and Shan laugh]
Shan
He was like, “sound the alarm, holy shit!” [laughs]
[NiNi laughs]
Ben
I was like, “Shan, There's a BL emergency! Get home quick!”
Shan
I was waiting to watch it until we had all the episodes and he was like, “Nope, no more waiting! Get on it right now!”
Ben
Episode 6 is probably the best single episode of BL of the whole year. Kakeru has a lot of self doubt as part of his character—really well executed—and he expresses that he can't understand why Yamato might like him, and Yamato gets angry about this, and is like, “Don't you know what you're worth?” and he throws Kakeru on the bed and has this moment where he crosses the line with him. And you can see possibly years of restraint breaking, and he kind of scares Kakeru. When he gets his senses back, he scares himself and flees, and has this whole breakdown where he despairs about this. This is so perfectly executed because that's how it feels when you're in the closet and you make a mistake and reveal yourself.
Shan
What's wild is that, that's just the end scene of episode 6. Episode 6 does so much shit even before that. This is the episode where Kakeru and Yamato have this conversation on the roof, where Yamato confesses. At this point they both kind of know what's going on, but Yamato comes right out and says, “This is how I feel. This is what's going on.” And then he does the classic BL thing of immediately after confessing, he tries to walk away because he doesn't wanna stick around to be rejected.
And, something amazing happens in that scene, which is that Kakeru is like, “Hey, bitch, get back over here! You gotta listen to what I have to say now. You don't get to just confess and then run away.” And I was, like, fist pumping when that happened because it was, first of all, just a brilliant subversion of a classic trope. And he says, “I wasn't gonna reject you. I am still kind of processing this. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, but I want to think about it. You're important to me.” And I just love that.
Like NiNi said earlier, “Wow, the power of talking to each other instead of just having your emotional outburst and then running away—actually trying to communicate.” And that's so much of what this show is about. The moments where these two characters are able to communicate with each other clearly and get their real feelings across, that is when they are able to make progress in their relationship, and there are lots of characters in the show who are reinforcing that along the way.
Hosaka is probably the fan-favorite character. He's kind of the wise queer kid off to the side. He's got his little barrette in his hair. He's watching, he's perceiving, and he's really pushing—quite forcefully, actually [laughs]—the two lead characters to, like, talk to each other and get their shit together.
My personal favorite side character is Yamato's sister: Mikoto. She is just this quiet presence who has always had her brother's number on this, and knows exactly what's going on, and really chooses her moments to show up and be a mirror to him of what she's seeing, what he's doing, and make him think, and even give him some courage. She even has a couple scenes where she does the same for Kakeru. She's a great sister character of a type that we don't get to see very much and I really appreciated her.
NiNi
This show’s a banger. There's no reason not to watch it. Watch the damn show.
Ben
This show also released the sexual tension in a way that J-BLs very rarely do, particularly not in this lane of J-BL.
Shan
And it did it beautifully.
And I feel like we should talk a little bit about the visuals of this show. I'm not someone who normally even notices a lot of visual style. I’m a words person. I really am pretty dialogue-focused, and I don't usually notice a lot that's going on with the visual effects in the show, but this one used them so effectively that even I kind of keyed in.
Ben
So this show uses a bokeh effect, which is this thing where you play with the focus of the camera to make these blurry lights appear. This is very common in anime to show that a character is experiencing heightened emotion. Like the emotions are sparkling out of them, and the show color-coded the boys's visual effect to reflect when they were experiencing intense emotion. It’s very obvious to the audience when the moment turns for Kakeru. Yamato is bursting with emotion from the first goddamn episode, and when it starts to happen for Kakeru, we're finally—“Oh, finally, these bitches are both on the same page.”
The other fun visual gag in the show is, very early on there’s this moment at, like, an arcade or whatever, where Yamato gets a stuffed animal for Kakeru, which is part of him thinking he wants to be with this girl. He ends up keeping the stuffed animal and the stuffed animal ends up becoming the audience stand in. So, like, whenever a moment happens between the boys, they cut to the stuffed animal whose arms they've moved to create a different expression—him either being, like, overwhelmed with kilig feelings about the boys being cute, or aghast feelings [laughs] about something untoward suddenly going on. It's a great running visual gag.
NiNi
This show is awesome. It gets at 10. What were you guys’ scores?
Shan
Perfect 10, baby!
Ben
For those of you who don't know, NiNi and I are far more loose with our 10s than Shan. Shan is a stingy bitch when it comes to 10s.
[Ben and Shan laugh]
Shan
Understatement. I have watched over 400 dramas. I have given out eleven 10s total, but this show is one of them.
Ben
I also gave this show a 10.
NiNi
Okay, so I Cannot Reach You gets a 10 from The Conversation and we are on to the next one.
00:54:43 - My Personal Weatherman
NiNi
The next show that we're going to talk about on this what is definitely going to be a monster episode is My Personal Weatherman. Who wants to take this one? Ben or Shan, who is telling us what My Personal Weatherman is about?
Shan
Ben’s definitely gotta do this one.
Ben
My Personal Weatherman is a very kinky BL where a local weather forecaster has a live-in boyfriend who is an erotic manga artist. They have a very Dom/sub, and they are not very good at talking to each other. They actually do say a lot to each other in this show. They just constantly misunderstand each other—very refreshing for Japan. Segasaki is the weatherman who provides for them. Yoh is the manga artist who is very much struggling. Yoh sees himself as kind of a slave—he doesn't really necessarily enjoy the sort of housewife role he's been placed into, and resents that they seem to only have sex when it [doesn’t] rains?
He pretends like he doesn't want to have sex with Segasaki, but then he has a whole blow up because they end up in a sunny [rainy] season where it doesn't rain a lot and has a whole breakdown episode where he just masturbates furiously for a whole afternoon because they haven't had sex in a while. It's a very fun reveal that the reason why they don't have sex is because that's what Segasaki thought they needed to do, which has really good payoff in, like, the next episode or two later.
This show was a little bit complicated to talk about and watch. This very obvious kink dynamics going on in this, but people who are more familiar with Japanese home dynamics say some of this is actually fairly normal for husband and wife dynamics. And the show ends a little bit abruptly, which is part of my consternation with it. I kind of liked a lot of what the show was doing. I unfortunately watch too much BTS stuff, and it was revealed that some of the things that were going on with Segasaki were kind of improvised by a Higuchi Kohei, who plays Segasaki, which I think muddles some of the messaging of the show.
But before we get deeper into that sort of stuff, NiNi, I know I bullied you to watch the show, and Japanese BL is not always your forte—reactions and thoughts on this show?
NiNi
So you're right that they are communicating, they're just willfully misunderstanding each other. I found that incredibly frustrating. But I still like the show. I did. I did like the show. I think that the miscommunications that they're having, because they are talking and miscommunicating that way, I am less annoyed by the miscommunication. If they were just not talking, it would be like a completely different thing.
And then I like the settings. I like the side characters. I like the main characters. I like that Yoh cannot cook and Segasaki loves to eat his food anyway. Yoh’s a terrible cook, like terrible, like— [laughs] it's so bad, and Segasaki literally eats everything that Yoh will make with a smile on his face because he loves him so much.
Shan
He ruined a curry. I don't even know how you do that.
Ben
That's really impressive. Curry’s so easy. His curry was crunchy! Gurl.
NiNi
I think the thing that I'm not sure comes across, but in your description of the show, is that they've been together for a while. This show stretches on a little bit. It shows how they ended up together?
Ben
One of the things we got clarification on is like their cohabitation is fairly recent. The offer was made when they were still students, but the cohabitation is recent.
Shan
Which we didn't find out until almost the end of the show.
NiNi
Segaki thinks that he's being clear with Yoh. Yoh, because of, I guess, self-esteem issues or whatever it is is completely misreading the very direct words I think that Segasaki is using, but Segasaki is also being direct, but not entirely clear. So it's not that it's easy to misunderstand, but you could see how misunderstandings could happen. Yoh is kind of withholding even if he's saying things.
Segasaki is picking up a completely different kind of thing from what Yoh is saying, because he thinks that they're in a loving relationship, while Yoh thinks that they're in a weird master-servant dynamic. So, they're in a relationship. They're just, they're in two different relationships. And so they're talking past each other.
Yoh doesn't understand why Segasaki won’t be certain affectionate ways with him, and the minute that it becomes that Yoh actually expresses that in a way that Segasaki understands, he completely changes the way that he behaves towards Yoh. And he does do that softness and affection and stuff with him because he didn't know that that was what Yoh wanted. He thought that what he was doing was what Yoh wanted. It's similar to how Yoh is reading Segasaki.
I found it interesting. Frustrating, yes, I will not deny that I found it frustrating. But I found the way that they chose to deal with the miscommunication trope, which is a big trope that Japan uses—which is a lot of times why I have trouble with Japanese BL, because miscommunication frustrates the shit out of me—but I think that the way that it was used in this show was very clever, and I liked how they move past it. I think that how they moved past it was also very interesting.
So yeah, I think the show was pretty good. I would score it highly.
Ben
Shan, thoughts on the show?
Shan
So [sigh], sometimes, in BL fandom, I think that we as an audience latch on to the idea of a show, and then kind of give a show credit for our idea of what it's doing instead of what it's actually doing. And this is one of those shows for me. It's not a fave.
I liked a lot about the show—a lot of the things that NiNi just mentioned—I thought were interesting. Like, miscommunication trope is not my favorite, but it's hugely Japanese for cultural reasons, for language reasons, so I'm very used to it—and I've seen really good executions of it. This show, I feel, did not have the quality of writing that it needed to support the complexities of what it was trying to do with these characters. And that showed through a lot, there were a lot of cracks in this show.
You kind of alluded to one earlier, Ben, about how there were—what I perceived while watching—there were some inconsistencies in characterization in Segasaki in particular. And we learned from the BTS that that actually probably was an actual inconsistency, because it wasn't in the writing, these differences in how he was appearing in these different time periods. It was something the actor was just trying out on his own, and they kind of just let him do that.
There were lots of instances of dropped threads or missing context to understand the characters' reactions and things. I read some awesome gap filler, thoughts, explanations, and interpretations of what we could make of the characters behaving in certain ways. To use an old Internet term: that's called ‘fanwanking,’ and that is when the fans of a thing have to do a lot of extra work to figure it out and explain it because the show has not done that work itself. And that, for me, was kind of the bottom line with this show. It didn't do all of its work, and I think that a lot of us were so intrigued by the premise—were so into the visuals of the show, liked the pair, liked the characters enough, to fill in those gaps and still really enjoy it. But for me, the show didn't get to the level of quality that it was aspiring to, and it didn't quite work for me, in the end.
On top of some of those gaps that I think were kind of there throughout the show. You said earlier, Ben, I think, that it ended abruptly. It's not just that it ended abruptly, it didn't finish its story. It felt very unfinished. To me it felt like an intentional grab for a season 2—a play to try to get the fans wanting more so that they could maybe get funding for a season 2? And hey, if that's what they're going for, power to them. I hope they get the money. I'd really like to see them finish the story. But, I would have liked more if they would have actually finished the story initially that they were trying to tell. This show for me, it tried some things. It was interesting. It was enjoyable to watch.
Ben
[laughs] She said, “Girl, you tried.”
Shan
It’s a little bit of a Girl, You Tried for me! I'm not gonna lie, it is!
Ben
Here's what I'll say. I don't think all of the pieces of the show work together as seamlessly as they wanted them to. However…I don't care. [laughs]
I liked what the show is trying to do. I really liked the really messy relationship between them. I like that Drama Shower went with a show about two people who are trying to be together and failing miserably at it. I do like what the show was attempting to do. I find myself far more forgiving to the show because it was trying things that BL doesn't do very often. I also just really liked episode 4, where Man-san comes to their house.
Shan
Yes, let's talk about Man-san, best character in the show. [laughs]
Ben
It was one of my favorite moments of the year, the bit where she knocked at the door and Yoh panics, and Segasaki’s like, “Oh so she’s here?” and he starts stretching. He's like, “Don’t worry.” Like he’s ready to fight this woman [NiNi laughs] who he believes that Yoh was having a secret romance with on the side, and then the door opens and—she's been a Segasaki stan for a while. And they have this really great comedic overlay of [laughs], “Oh my God. I'm at my idol's house.” And all he does is charm the shit out of her for the whole episode, and piss Yoh off because he thinks Segasaki's flirting with her.
I had so much fun with this show. This is the closest I come to a vibes rating. I tend to be forgiving with shows that are trying things that are fresh in the genre—or at least underexplored. And so, we’re mostly rating this show on the fact that it executes high heat in a believable way, for the most part, and was generally a really watchable eight weeks. I had a lot of fun with this show.
Shan
Mmhmm. I hope they get their season 2. I wanna see them finish it.
NiNi
I ended up giving this an 8. I think it was pretty good. The parts that I liked I really liked, and the other parts were just kind of a meh for me. ‘Meh’ is always going to be worse than ‘bad,’ for me anyway, unless it's offensive. So it drags it down from what could have been a 9 to an 8 for me.
Shan, how about you?
Shan
In a shocking twist, I gave it a higher score than NiNi. I gave it an 8.5. Maybe because I, like you, Ben, appreciated what it was trying to do and wanted to give it a little credit for that.
Ben
I gave My Personal Weatherman an 8.5. So it can get an 8 from The Conversation. It's fine.
NiNi
So My Personal Weatherman gets an 8 from The Conversation, and on we go.
01:07:01 - If It's With You
NiNi
Our next show that we're talking about is If It's With You.
Ben
Oh! We're back to bangers! Let's continue!
Shan
I got it!
If It's With You is about Amane, a high school student who fucks… You want me to say more than that?
Ben
No. You are correct, bestie, and this show is perfect.
[NiNi laughs]
This show opens up with a high schooler having ill-advised sex with an older character, who's about to move to the countryside with his grandma. And his last hookup is like, “It's been really fun tearing that ass up. But maybe, when you move to this little, small seaside town, you can have a normal high school romance.” And he scoffs at the notion of someone like him ever having a high school romance, but little does he know he's in a five-episode MBS BL, and that's exactly what's in store for him!
And it's great! He moves to the little seaside town. He immediately runs into a really hot guy who's super sweet, falls for him, and it ends up being mutual.
Shan
I like that this show is a twist on the classic romance trope of goin’ to a little seaside town, meetin’ someone unexpected, fallin’ in love. Like, there's hardly a more classic romance trope—we've all seen it a million times. But what was nice about it is that we had this young character who was already kind of jaded, and just didn't think that love was something he was interested in. And we got to see him form a really genuine connection with somebody—that was initially based on thinking he was hot and wanting to fuck him. Yeah, Amane definitely wanted to have sex with Ryuji. He made it kind of clear.
One of my favorite things the show did was Amane is not in the closet. He's not ashamed of who he is, and he made sure that Ryuji knew, first that he was gay, and second that he wanted to be physically involved with Ryuji. He told him that straight up, and kind of braced himself for rejection because, as we learned, he had been rejected for that in the past by other friends. And then we get to see Ryuji react to that, and process it, and be like, “Okay, that's cool. I don't know that I can really reciprocate that right now, but I want to keep hanging out. Is that alright with you?” What a cool response to that. What a way to be, Ryuji, I love that! And then we got to just see them build a relationship from there. It felt very genuine.
NiNi
Amane is one of my favorite types, which is a masking sad boy. He's a sad boy who is pretending to be happy, and pretending to not care. Basically, he's putting on this front of being carefree when he's actually a very sad, very hurt boy, and Ryuji clocks that immediately and tells him, “Yo, you don't gotta do all of that around me. It's fine if you’re sad.” At that point I was not only in love with the show, I was in love with Amane.
In fact, my only critique of the show is, I think, at the very, very end it pulled its punch. But… basically, Amane is one of my favorite characters of the year, and there's so much about Ryuji, too. Ryuji is a kid who's lost his dad, and he works with his mom in the restaurant where his dad used to cook. Literally, his dad is the one who taught him to cook, and now he cooks in the restaurant, and sometimes he doesn't go to school because he has to work in the restaurant, and his house is a little chaotic. But there's one corner where his dad's shrine is, which is spotless.
Guys, if I start thinking about this show too much, I'm actually gonna cry. I think the show touched me somewhere very deep, and it's a thing that I'm still thinking about, even if, as I said, I think it pulled its punches a little bit at the end, it stayed with me. Also, some of the greatest set design. Y’all know I love Japanese set design. It's a fantastic example of set design.
Ben
Continuing the conversation we had with I Cannot Reach You about how it's very difficult to be gay when you're young. Amane tried to have the youth thing that Heartstopper indicates that we could potentially have, and Amane is crushed for it—the way many of us are crushed—accidentally! The best thing about the way Amane gets crushed is that his friend crushes him without realizing he did—excellent gay angst. Top tier. I feel the old wounds festering. It's great.
NiNi
[laughs] Why are you like this?
Ben
[laughs]
So Amane is not well, and he's doing what many of us do: he skips it. Gay people who are closeted do not get to have high school romances. We don't get used to people perceiving us and what it means to be a couple. We skip so much of this, and then you become an adult, and these anonymous hookups—that are not very meaningful—and they can feel weird, because you're trying to be vulnerable with someone, and they don't want that. And it sucks to try and have intimate moments with other gay people that feel like transactions. It makes you feel cheap about yourself, and Amane understood that. And he's gorgeous. He's a funny, thoughtful, heartfelt little boy, and he already thinks he is just someone else for other people to hook up with.
Shan
I just want to say NiNi’s right that they pulled their punch at the end, and it's why this show isn't perfect for me. I loved it a lot, but the show started, as we’ve mentioned, with a character for whom sexual intimacy—sexual desire—was a big part of just how he lived, how he thought of himself, what he liked to do. And I don't like it when shows explicitly or implicitly imply that serious relationships, true love, do not have a sexual component. That sex is something salacious and dirty, and that love is something pure. And I think, because the show pulled its punches at the end here on the sexual relationship between Amane and Ryuji, I think that's a little bit of the implicit message that they put out there. And I don't love that. So I do have to ding them for that. They didn't finish strong.
Ben
I do agree in that regard and it was very unfortunate for this show that I Cannot Reach You finished, like, two weeks later. [laughs]
Shan
It really didn't help this show that I Cannot Reach You came up on its tail and did it better.
Ben
I really like the show. I really like the way that it set up a very initial premise of “maybe you should try a real romance, kid.” Like, you're still a kid. You can still have a good romance. It doesn't matter that you failed once: A great message to all the little gays out there, old and young. You can still have worthwhile romance. Shiro got to have a great relationship with Kenji at like 47!
Shan
There it is! I've been waiting for it! It's amazing! You made it two hours without it. Two whole hours before you did it.
Ben
I was trying so hard, bestie. I really was. I was really trying not to mention What Did You Eat Yesterday? in this episode. [laughs]
NiNi
I knew once we hit Japanese BL, it was only a matter of time.
Ben
I was trying so hard, y’all. Like, they were talking about the way this man couldn't cook, and I was like, “Ooh, I can't mention What Did You Eat Yesterday?”
[Ben and Shan laugh]
Y’all got me so conscious about my favorite show! They dragged me, y'all! They ate me up! They tore me to pieces!
But seriously, in terms of, like, messaging, I agree. They muddled it a little bit, but I really like Amane's arc.
It's good! One of my favorites of the year. Let's go around the room. Ratings! NiNi?
NiNi
I give it a 10.
Ben
Shan?
Shan
I gave it a 9.5.
Ben
I also gave it a 9.5. I think it is a Conversation 9.5 because we all agree that it muddled the waters on Amane’s relationship with sex as it pertains to Ryuji.
NiNi
I concur. So, it's a 9.5 from The Conversation for If It's With You.
01:15:38 - Absolute Zero
NiNi
And now we are into the shit. [laughs]
Ben
Oh, oh shit! Oh fuck! It's two hours into this! I have almost finished my daiquiri. I am drunk.
[NiNi laughs]
Let's talk about Absolute Zero!
NiNi
You're gonna get exactly three minutes on Absolute Zero, okay?
Ben
Oh, sure, that's all I need.
NiNi
I'm not letting you get into another New Siwaj thing. [laughs] Should be easy, because I didn't watch it, and Shan and Ben did not finish it. Ben, tell us what Absolute Zero is about.
Ben
Absolute Zero is a time travel BL in which a gay man in his 30s… No, he's technically 26. Oh my God. A 26 year-old gay man! His partner, who he lives with, has an accident. He's in a coma. He's having a bad time. And then a magic taxi takes him to the past, and then he does nothing for six episodes except date the younger version [laughs] of his boyfriend, and confuse the fuck out of them. And then apparently a bunch of time travel nonsense happens after this, and I had to be forcibly dragged off of this show [Shan laughs] because the clowns were worried for me.
We don't need to talk about the show. Shan, you don't need to talk about it? NiNi, you don’t need to talk about it. I'm gonna look directly into the camera.
[NiNi laughs]
New Siwaj, you had multiple opportunities this year to do something meaningful. I have had to sit here across from NiNi for over a year as Tee Bundit has put out three different shows, 2 and one half of which I thought flopped in one way or another. [Shan laughs] You had multiple opportunities to give me something useful to talk about with NiNi on this podcast, and you failed me, sir.
This was your chance to do Until We Meet Again-style BL again, and you should have given us all something sad and melancholy to reflect over as a real good capstone of this year and you [starts yelling] fucking blew it for all of us!
I cannot believe you, sir. You've wasted so much of our goddamn time. I cannot believe you embarrassed me on this podcast like this.
[NiNi laughs]
Shan
New Siwaj is having whatever the opposite of a renaissance year is.
NiNi
Ooh.
Ben
So bad. Like, you should have thrived under these circumstances. This is your bread and butter: caring way too much about little shit, but you didn't get any of the big shit right. This was a terrible experience. Literally, only two other people we know of finished your goddamn show.
Shan
And they hated it, every minute!
Ben
They had nothing positive to say about it. For over two months, this was horrible. What an absolute waste of genuinely good talent at every level of this production. Reportedly, everyone gave decent performances, and you wasted them on this empty drivel. What the fuck was this? You had four years of having the rights of the story. You had the actual writer of the novel on staff helping you write the goddamn script. And it was still this stupid empty mess, which apparently ends at none of it really occurring, but everyone having some sort of form of temporal PTSD? Like this was a 12 week Star Trek episode? What the absolute fuck was this?
[NiNi laughs]
Shan
I have nothing to add.
NiNi
Hydrate, baby, hydrate.
Ben
Oh, girl you know I got my water right here.
This show gets no rating from The Conversation. We DNF’d this show. We will never be going back to this show.
I will allow the rest of you to offer additional commentary. Proceed.
NiNi
So, Ben, is this breakup gonna stick?
Shan
Yeah, right.
Ben
We have talked about this girl.
[NiNi laughs]
He's got a whole college BL with all of the B- and C-listers at GMMTV coming out in the spring. I gotta watch this fucking shithow, don't you worry.
[Ben and NiNi laugh]
Shan
There never has been a break up, and there never will be a breakup. Let’s just be clear.
NiNi
They’re the couple that fights in the street, and then the next day they're all boo’d up. I hate you so much.
Ben
We are what they thought they were doing with Cher and Top in Only Friends.
Shan
Mew and Top.
NiNi
[laughs] I’m so mad that you called it Cher in Only Friends!
Ben
Oh, Mew and Top. Right, right, right, right, right, right.
[NiNi laughs]
It gets a 0 from The Conversation!
Shan
An Absolute Zero.
NiNi
An Absolute Zero.
Ben
Oh man, I didn't make another windmill joke during If It's With You—If It's With You is about how— [laughs]
A windmill!
[laughs harder]
NiNi
I am so done with you. I am moving on. We are moving on.
01:21:05 - My Dear Gangster Oppa
NiNi
We're moving on to—I am just calling it ‘the main event.’
Ben
No, no, I'll do it, because you have to describe this one. You're gonna take this L, bestie.
[NiNi laughs]
On to our next show: My Dear Gangster Oppa. NiNi, tell us about [laughs] My Dear Gangster Oppa.
NiNi
My Dear Gangster Oppa is the B-movie’s B-movie. My Dear Gangster Oppa is a Thai BL based on a Korean webtoon that I have not read—because I never read these things—but I do know that it's based on a Korean webtoon, so I get a point for that. It is about the titular gangster oppa, Tew, and the titular dear, Guy.
They meet playing some kind of mobile game virtually and they somehow become sort of close, or at least close enough that when the gaming team decides that they're going to meet in real life, all the other gamers are like, “Guy, you ask Oppa to come to the meet up, because he'll come if you ask him to.” Well, at that point they thought it was a her because Oppa plays with a female avatar because of reasons.
Ben
Naive assumptions.
NiNi
[laughs] The point of the matter is Oppa’s a gangster, like legit—guns, beatings, stabbings.
Ben
He has murdered people!
NiNi
He has absolutely killed people, and Guy is just a sad gay boy in love with his bestie since high school…
I'm sorry guys, I'm doing a terrible job of describing the show.
Shan
It's not you, NiNi, it's the show!
Ben
I'll back you up. It starts off as a show about gamers, and two of them falling for each other, and then decides to become a shitty mafia BL.
NiNi
[gasps]
Shan
A boring mafia BL.
Ben
There it is. It becomes a boring mafia BL.
NiNi
Shan and Ben are stabbing me through the heart right now. I just want to let you, the listeners, know.
Ben
Well, how about you climb over the wall wearing your kneepads and drop onto—[Ben and NiNi laughs]—the mattress?
NiNi
That's why it's a B-movie’s B-movie, Ben!
Shan
No, listen. NO!
NiNi
Okay, the show had—the show had ideas.
Ben
Did it?
NiNi
It had ideas. Some of the ideas were really good. The execution of the show is terrible. Some of it is terrible. I—okay, it's all terrible by accident. Like none of this is done on purpose. Do not get me wrong. It is very, very bad.
Ben
They hired the most juiceless boys, and then pretended that they had juice. That was not good. Like if you had—
Oof. I have my own read. Finish talking about your little show you had fun with before I cut it to pieces.
NiNi
This show is not good. It's not good. I am not defending it on any type of quality grounds. I just enjoyed the fuck out of it. That's all I'm saying. It was trash. You could see all the seams, as Ben has intimated. You can see the stuntee's knee pads and elbow pads. You can see them throwing themselves off of things and falling onto the barely-hidden mats. Oh my God, it's so bad. It's so bad that I laughed my ass off for eight weeks. I'm sorry, I had a good time.
Shan
Let me give NiNi some credit. I just binged this show this week, and I was genuinely having fun with it for the first half—the same vibe that NiNi’s talking about. Like I was, like, “This is hilariously bad, but it's kind of funny.”
[laughs] We have to talk about the bright orange scar makeup.
Ben
Do we?
Shan
Did they not have red or black in their makeup kits? They put these fucking neon orange scars on him [laughs], and it was the worst thing I've ever seen. But it’s like, that kind of shit is funny, it was a good time. But the show's biggest sin to me is not that it wasn't good. It was never going to be good. It's that it got so fucking boring, because it abandoned all the funny elements—the fun and silly and wacky things it was doing in the beginning with, like, the gamers—and treating the difference between them in some ways so seriously, and in some ways so deeply unseriously. That dichotomy was kind of fun.
But then in the second-half of the show, it becomes all about this fucking mafia plot, and it was terrible. Like, it—it was terrible because it was so boring. The energy just sucked straight out of the screen every time I had to sit through these long ass scenes of Oppa talking to these different mafia guys about what they were mad about and why. I never gave a single shit. It was horrible. And that is why the show pissed me off, because it was fun, and then it decided to just be this dull nothing.
This show, like Oppa, needed to quit the gangster life.
NiNi
[laughs] When I tell you, I actually screamed. Like, my sister had to come check on me.
Shan
It was all downhill from that line. That was the peak of the show.
NiNi
[laughs] How dare you? The show had a budget of $47.18 and it spent all of it on that scar prosthetic.
Ben
I watched this with Aiden, who you may have heard on the I Told Sunset About You episode. Aiden could not remember Tew’s name, and once he started wearing those horrible suspenders [laughs] Aiden just started calling him Urkel for the rest of our watches.
NiNi
Now you see, that's fun.
Ben
Shan refused to learn his name and just called him ‘Oppa’ the whole time.
Shan
I stand by it.
NiNi
It's the B-movie’s B-movie. It's like B-exponential, like B-to-the-power-of-B. Okay, I'm sorry. I am that girl.
Ben
You heard many a Gay Rant from me over the last year. New rant unlocked for The Conversation: Gamer Rant.
NiNi
Oh, no.
Shan
Oh, boy.
Ben
We don't talk about this on the podcast, but I have a very long history of being very involved with a very specific video game. I have deep and meaningful relationships with other gamers. I was the best man at a gamer wedding where sixteen of us showed up. We were deep at that wedding—we had our own goddamn table. And I showed up as the only representative at a smaller wedding to make sure that one of us was present to witness the event.
Gaming relationships are so important to me because when you're a weirdo and you don't fit in, It's easy to become close with people very quickly online because you're anonymous. They don't know anything about you. This show ends up abandoning all the interesting things about this weird collection of people who had found each other through this game, and decided to meet up together and extend that relationship into meatspace, to then become the weirdly worst mafia BL we've seen in a while, which was so twisted because the show clearly likes action film, and then embarrassed itself trying to mimic them. And clearly cared about violence, because Tew has a legitimately violent history that is handled with far more seriousness than even something like KinnPorsche did.
There was so much that was way more interesting than being a shitty action schlock BL that this show could have been by starting with the gaming component, and it was legitimately infuriating for me to see this show use it as a cheap way to say these guys know each other, to then do nothing interesting with the mafia shit.
I hate this show, so much. This is one of the worst shows we watched this season because this show could have been a fun action schlock B-movie if it was a fucking movie. But it asked for eight fucking weeks from me. I spent eight hours with this motherfucker—I had a lot of time to think about this shit. This show sucks way more than it even realizes that it sucks, and that's really the sad part about it all. This show is one of the worst [laughs] shows I watched in this season and I hate it.
NiNi
Shan, Ben is gamer offended, among other things.
Shan
I do think this show would have been a lot better if it was about the gamers instead of about the mafia.
Ben
There was a real opportunity for them to just only talk about their team stuff and for all of Tew’s gangster shit to be lore going on in the background, cause when you're hanging out with your homies online, their real lives are lore. Like, NiNi is in school. That means nothing to me.
[NiNi laughs]
“Is she gonna be present for this show? Oh, wait. No. She's gotta worry about, like, her real life stuff with her family or her school or our podcast. Well, shit, NiNi's busy. I guess I can't bug her to watch this tiny Taiwanese BL that I really like. It's not that important.”
Shan does really cool shit in her real life. That means nothing to me! “Shan, are you available to watch this Japanese BL that I really like?” That's all I care about.
Shan
Always bestie, always.
Ben
That's the point. Gaming friendships—we don't really know what people do in their day-to-day lives. Like it would have been legitimately funny if Tew was, like, never lying about shit. Like, “Yeah, we just had a really weird stuff. Like, a guy came into the store. I had to, like, beat the shit out of four guys. I might have killed one of them. Whatever. We got rid of his body.” And they would be like, “Haha! Whatever! It’s time for practice.” If they had legitimately focused on whatever gaming shit they were concerned about and all of Tew’s mafia shit happened in the background as just fan fiction we all made-up, this would have been a fucking excellent show.
But instead it was this disaster that ended up offending me way more than I expected it to. Fuck this show!
On to Wahl, who was one of the characters I hate the most this year. Oh, I got words for that motherfucker. Don't think we're getting out of this recording without me going off about Wahl. Fuck that dude. I hate this dude so much. This character is not redeemable to me. Wahl only cares about Guy at the point at which Guy remains under his control. And the grossest thing this show did was have him accept that he can no longer control Guy, and then imply that he ends up with another guy at the end to perpetuate this cycle he has. He is so fucking vile. I hate him so fucking much.
Shan
I would just like to say that I concur on Wahl. That guy fucking sucks, and I hated him from maybe the second episode.
Ben
As soon as he did that stupid seal dance, I was like, “I hate this man!” [laughs]
Shan
You are done.
Ben
I'm like, “That's not even a whale, you stupid son of a bitch! Get outta here!”
Shan
He was a shitty friend, and as always, I got salty about him being forgiven without having to pay any consequences for his shitty behavior.
NiNi
We all agree that Wahl sucks. [laughs] We can agree on that. [laughs]
Ben
Does anyone have anything else to say about this terrible show before we move on?
NiNi
I am continuing to defend it. I will give it a 6.5.
Ben
Shan?
Shan
I gave it a 5.
Ben
I gave it a 4.
NiNi
So, Shan, by The Price is Right rules, you win [laughs] and the show gets a 5.
Shan
Feels right.
01:33:32 - Middleman's Love
NiNi
Moving on to our final show, and the one we all just finished today—well Ben and I finished. Shan watched the beginning and the end, which I think is a delightful way to watch this show.
Shan
I am very happy with my choices.
NiNi
So we all watched Middleman's Love. Yes, you might have heard me say on an earlier episode of this podcast that I would not be watching Middleman's Love. However, you should mind your business, because just because I said it doesn't mean it's happening.
Ben
I say I break up with New Siwaj every single season of the show. [NiNi and Shan laugh] It's whatever. We don't care.
NiNi
So I watched Middleman's Love, and I have actual real thoughts. But first we gotta tell the people what Middleman's Love is about. So, Ben, take it away.
Ben
Middleman's Love is a spin off from Bed Friend. Jade is a middle child and used to being overlooked by his family and his friends. They've got some interns at work. He doesn't realize that his intern has an enormous crush on him, and so is using his fudanshi eyes to try and hook him up with another intern, and slowly comes to realize the intern actually has legitimate feelings for him as we unpack Jade's own hang ups as it comes to love.
While there are a lot of things I ended up enjoying, the show attempts to be comedic in a way that was really divisive and it ends up being kind of a mixed bag. Bed Friend is a really dramatic show, and while I don't think all of us currently here agree about how well Bed Friend did these things, Middleman's Love as a really comedic tonal shift doesn't always work because they're relying on Yim to be comedic as Jade in a way that makes you ask legitimately as Shan likes to say, “Why would anyone want to fuck this man?”
Shan
[laughs] Well, I did wonder why anyone would want to fuck this guy.
Ben
And that is honestly a legitimate question to ask early on in this. This ends up getting a little bit of Cheewin’s stuff—and I’ll let NiNi have that part—’cause she's much kinder to Cheewin about this than I am. But that's basically the gist of it. Jade is a middle child who's used to being overlooked and playing supporting role to other people who comes to realize that he can have love, too.
NiNi, your thoughts on the show?
NiNi
That's it in a nutshell. I have a lot of thoughts on this show because it helped me clarify a lot of things about Cheewin.
Now I get to say some lore and some BTS stuff because I know things too, Ben. This was originally cast with Jimmy and Tommy, with Tommy as Jade and Jimmy as Mai.
Ben
That would have been way better. [laughs] That would have been way better!
NiNi
Hold on. Hold on. Let me finish. While I think that Tommy would have made a better Jade, I actually prefer Tutor’s Mai to what we probably might have gotten out of Jimmy.
I have a lot of Cheewin feelings about this show, because some of the things that I enjoy about Cheewin is that he likes to examine artifice and performance, and the things that we're hiding when we put on these big personas and personalities. And he explores that through a lot of sometimes-cringey humor, which I really like. It's the Secret Crush on You thing. It's certain parts of Make It Right. It's certain bits of Bed Friend?
Basically, Cheewin likes to look at artifice and then puncture it. Cheewin likes to look at what makes people present weird and unpack that, and he likes to unpack that using sex because I think that Cheewin thinks—and I kind of agree—that sex is a revelatory experience. I suppose you can hide while you're having sex, but it's incredibly difficult, especially if you feel something for the person that you're having sex with. I personally find it interesting to watch that.
I think that this show was miscalibrated, and not just in the acting or the tone. Unlike a lot of people, I actually do like cringe humor and some of the slapstick that we get in Thai comedy. I actually enjoy that stuff. It doesn't put me off. I think that the way that Cheewin uses humor in Middleman's Love is way better than how he used it in Bed Friend, and how he built it in Bed Friend. I think that the humor here, the comedy here, has done better. I think that Yim is not great at the comedy, and since Yim's character is the central character of Middleman's Love, it doesn't work.
Plus, the story doesn't need eight episodes and Ben and I often talk about when something's too long, because I like a long show—Ben does not. This story was eight episodes and I think it could have been done in four. I like parts of the show. I like some of the things that the show is trying to do. I think that it mostly does not succeed.
Ben
Shan, you watched the first episode. [laughs] You were horrified by bobble heads in the intro—
Shan
[moans] I still have nightmares.
Ben
—and the general cringey humor. And then you came back for the finale. How about you talk about your experience with this show?
Shan
Definitely accurate to say that I bounced hard off this show after watching the first episode, and I definitely wasn't alone in that. In talking to other people we know who are watching it, a lot of folks had that reaction.
NiNi has already touched on why—the humor was not quite calibrated correctly, and the performer who had to hold up the whole show wasn't really up to the task, unfortunately. That's just what happened here. And so, for some of us, I think getting through that super uncomfortable cringe humor with a performer who wasn't quite able to carry it was just really difficult.
I struggled through the first episode. The bobbleheads really got me off on a terrible start. I hated those fucking things [laughs]—they still haunt me. And just throughout, I didn't really understand what I was supposed to be taking from the way Jade was being presented to me. He didn't feel like a real person. It was way too much. I didn't understand why this hot guy in the office was supposed to be looking at him with interest, given what we had seen of him. It just wasn't computing for me and I wasn't buying it.
I didn't intend to fully drop the show, but then the following week I left on a long trip. And while I was gone, I missed the next three episodes. By the time I got back, I was just like, “You know what? No, I'm not taking this back up. I'm just gonna wait and see what you all told me after it finished.” And so, I kind of knew the show wasn't for me, but I wasn't opposed to the idea of it. I like an ugly duckling story. I like a story about someone finding their confidence and being able to accept that they are worthy of love. Like, that's a worthwhile story to tell. And so I'm not anti-The Middleman's Love. It just didn't quite work for me.
The show finished this week. I decided to come back and watch the finale, just to kind of see where it landed, and [laughs] I actually think that was a great way to watch the show. If you, like me, are just not into the show's style and humor, you can watch the first episode and then you can watch the last episode, and you really won't miss any narrative beats—like it's super clear. The plot is very straightforward. You will be able to pick up in the last episode and understand everything important that has happened, and why the characters are where they are now. And you'll get to see Jade and Mai kind of settle into this relationship.
And I thought that was nice. I enjoyed watching the finale. I liked getting to see a Jade who had seriously toned down some of the quirks of the first episode—a Jade, who seemed a little bit more confident—but still the same character. And I really enjoyed what they did with the physical intimacy in this episode.
First of all, let me just give a cautionary note. If you are not watching this show on iQIYI, you are not seeing the whole show. I watched the finale on Gaga and got to the end and was like, “Where are these sex scenes that I heard about?”
Ben
The trust that Shan has in me [Shan laughs] she watched the whole show cut and was like, “Ben would never lie to me about sex scenes.”
Shan
You told me there were sex scenes in this!
Ben
“He used the Rihanna GIF. There is sex in the show.” [laughs]
Shan
And I will find it! So I did find it. [NiNi laughs] I went to iQIYI and I found it. So definitely watch it there.
But I loved what they did with it because they really used the intimacy scenes well to convey these two settling into their relationship to convey Jade over time becoming more comfortable with their physical intimacy—finding his own power in it, finding his own agency in it. The performers did a great job on those scenes. I was incredibly impressed by it, impressed by the show's ability to take those characters from point A to B like that.
If this show maybe wasn't entirely for you—if you, like me, dropped it in the beginning—I'd say maybe dip back in for the finale and enjoy a good time.
Ben
I like the idea of Jade a lot. I like the idea of a character who's had negative experiences feeling like he doesn't get priority from his family, ‘cause he's not the oldest and he's not the baby, not expecting a whole lot. And I like the idea of Jade having two really fucking hot friends in King and Uea, and just getting used to people being more interested in them, so not really seeing himself as a priority. And then he had like one relationship where he was literally told, “You were so weird and disgusting that no one wants to be with you.”
I kind of get it with Mai. It structurally works. Mai is very pretty. He's generally very good at his job. He's kind of charming, but not overwhelmingly so. He's just naturally very pretty and nice to people, and fairly amenable and good at what he does. And he's really into Jade because he thought Jade was really kind and competent the first time he saw him. The flavor of this could have been correct, but then, like, they added way too much sugar. It’s just not great as a result.
It's frustrating because Cheewin's ideas, as they're exemplified through the characters created for this show in Gus and Tong—and what he does with Jade and Mail—work really well. But the show is unfortunately really inessential. The people who watched this show were coming from Bed Friend, and I don't feel like this show really plays well as a Bed Friend extension or side story sort of experience. I think a lot of people brought the wrong energy to this show, and it took us weeks of recalibration to find something meaningful in it. And I don't think it finishes strong, because while I appreciate Cheewin’s giving the gays an extended boyfriend epilogue, an hour of watching people just be kind of cute boyfriends with no real drama on the table is kind of boring to watch in a TV show? And there's way more drama in watching people try to be boyfriends and deal with the consequences of actually being together.
There's a great moment where they talk about their past exes and what that means for them, what they're bringing to the current relationship. How they want to handle drama going forward. I thought that was really good. I thought the fact that Jade asked for sex was really good, and then he got it. I don't approve of Mai biting that man's motherfucking glasses—
NiNi
[laughs] I approve!
Ben
—and then tossing them around.
Shan
Ben, he licked his glasses off! Licked! [NiNi laughs] It’s a very important detail! I don't want you to get it wrong!
NiNi
[laughs] Shan, I don't know about you but personally I approve.
Shan
I did approve. I was very into that!
Ben
I actually liked when Mail wore the glasses in the second sex scene we got.
NiNi
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shan
A lot of good glasses material in these scenes.
NiNi
Top-tier, absolutely no notes, no complaints there, none whatsoever.
Ben
This show was a lot of fun when it wanted to be. And when it wasn't, it kind of sucked. NiNi, you don't spend a lot of time in the pulps, but My Dear Gangster Oppa and Middleman's Love? This is what the pulps are like. There are things that are worth talking about, and then there are things that are not. These shows are almost always kind of bad, but there's kind of something interesting that won't happen in the big network shows.
NiNi
I have been convinced into pulps before. I have enjoyed pulps before. We have discussed this before. I am not opposed to a good pulp, but it's gotta be a good pulp. The flaws of these two shows aside, I had a really good time with them, and I found things not just to enjoy, but also to give me a little bit to think about. Not like a ton to think about, granted, but they give me stuff to think about in both of these shows. And, for me, that's why I landed up more or less in the same place with them.
I gave Middleman's Love a 7. I think that's a perfectly reasonable score for it.
Ben
I gave this show a 6, not because I think it's bad or necessarily boring, but as I've explained with my rating system before, a 6 means the show is not offensive but I really truly think the only people who gain value from giving this show the eight hours-plus that it asks for is people who really give a shit about BL as a genre.
NiNi
Shan, what about you? How are you rating your short version BL cut?
Shan
I mean, obviously I didn't fully watch the show properly, so take it with a grain of salt, but this feels like a 6 show to me. That's what my heart is telling me it's a six.
NiNi
I will allow y'all to fully average down to 6.5 under protest.
Ben
That's not how math works, but okay.
NiNi
Listen, we gave up on math a long time ago on this show. Okay, just accept it and move on.
Ben
I think 6.5 is fair.
NiNi
If you like cringe comedy, I'm not saying that this show does cringe comedy as well as some other shows have done cringe comedy. And I bring up here Secret Crush on You because it's by the same creator, and it is some pinnacle cringe comedy—like some fantastic cringe comedy—that is just not replicated here. But if you like cringe comedy, there's something in here for you. If you like Thai-style slapstick, there's something in here for you.
That's all I'll say about it.
01:49:07 - Final Thoughts and Girl, You Tried
Ben
On to the final event: Girl, You Tried Winter 2023.
NiNi
So the Fall shows, there were some that tried and succeeded. They don't count for this award. Bye-bye, two-out-of-three Japanese BLs that we just talked about. So, My Personal Weatherman is in contention for Girl, You Tried.
Ben
Oh, then it wins.
NiNi
[laughs] Let's see what else we have here. We have Kiseki, which didn't try. Shan, do you think that Kiseki tried?
Shan
No, it did not try to be a coherent show. It cannot get the Girl, You Tried.
Ben
Thank you, Shan.
NiNi
So Kiseki is out of contention. Dangerous Romance sucked. It's not in contention for anything. Love in Translation is too good to be in contention for Girl, You Tried—that goes. Absolute Zero? Pfft, forget about it. My Dear Gangster Oppa, it definitely tried something.
Shan
Did it?
NiNi
I think it did.
Ben
Hmm.
NiNi
Ben really just unmuted just to go “Hmm” and go back on mute. Okay, fine. It's going into contention. And Middleman's Love. I think Middleman's Love did try, and I think that the execution of it was off. Not that it was necessarily bad, but that it was off. So if I had to put a Girl, You Tried contest together right now, it would be between My Personal Weatherman and Middleman's Love.
So, Shan, for you, very important vote now. My Personal Weatherman versus Middleman's Love for Girl, You Tried.
Shan
Oh, this is a hard one, ‘cause I think of the Girl, You Tried designation as, like, being for a show that got really close to being what it wanted to be—like almost got the execution right and then kind of just missed the mark. So for me, I think I'm going to have to give that to My Personal Weatherman between these two shows. I think it did have ambitions, and I think it did know what it wanted to be with clarity, and it just fell a little short on the execution. Whereas, I think Middleman's Love was a little bit messier and didn't have as clear of a vision of what it was doing?
NiNi
Okay, that's one for My Personal Weatherman. Ben, I already know your answer, but come on. Explain it to the people.
Ben
Hello, people.
[Ben and NiNi laugh]
So when we were first planning this episode, the Girl, You Tried debate was between My Dear Gangster Oppa and Middleman's Love, but I didn't realize how much I fucking hated My Dear Gangster Oppa until we got here and I was talking about it. And I was, like, “You know what, actually.”
I would have given it to Middleman's Love because Cheewin was trying to do the things that he likes to do, but now that you put My Personal Weatherman in contention, I gotta give it to that one. I think My Personal Weatherman is trying things that are harder to do than Middleman's Love. I think the ideas of that show are way more cogent, and easier to access and have a conversation about with people than something like Middleman's Love.
NiNi
Okay, so for me, if I had to choose who attempted the higher degree of difficulty, it would be Middleman's Love. It's a high wire act. It's so easy to fall off. If I have to think about who got closer to their intentions, I would say it's My Personal Weatherman.
Girl, You Tried has a criterion, which is a strong premise with some sort of flaw/failure in the execution. But it has also become somewhat of a personal Rorschach test for us as we go through the shows, and attempt to unpack what it is that we think they did well, what it is we think they did badly, what it is we enjoyed and didn't enjoy. And that enjoyment component does have something to do with how we end up on a Girl, You Tried.
If they're tied right now based on those other criteria, and I have to think about what I personally enjoyed more, I would have to give it to Middleman's Love.
Shan and Ben outvote me. Boohoo. I'm gonna go cry about it.
Ben
I don't want to walk away from this particular recording pretending like I don't like Middleman's Love. The spirit inside of it is worth acknowledging.
Shan
I think both of these shows are worthy of talking about as shows that tried to do somethin’. I think for me, My Personal Weatherman just gets a little bit closer there and it's doing a little bit more.
NiNi
I think that's a good place to leave it, so that's going to wrap us up on Tens and Chops, our first ever full grab bag episode. So this is Volume One, hopefully with many more to come.
Next up, the VIIB Awards. I'm looking forward to that. I'm excited.
Anyway, we out. Say “bye” to the people, Ben.
Ben
Peace!
NiNi
Shan, say “bye” to the people.
Shan
Bye, people.
#podcast#lgbtq#kiseki: dear to me#dangerous romance#love in translation#i cannot reach you#kimi ni wa todokanai#my personal weatherman#taikan yoho#if it's with you#kimi to nara koi wo shite mite mo#absolute zero#my dear gangster oppa#middleman's love#season 5#winter series#ben and nini's conversations#the conversation#on art#thai bl#bl series#japanese bl#taiwanese bl#Spotify
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I'm tired, stressed and overwhelmed so I'm going to try and vent frustration by ranting about the movie we played for the preschoolers today (tomorrow's Thanksgiving so we're off for a few days so we had a movie day).
So we watched an animated adaptation of "A Christmas Carol" that I didn't know existed but apparently came out last year that was just literally called "Scrooge: Christmas Carol" and boy lemme tell you the movie was as bland and unoriginal as the title.
Tell me this: why would you make a Christmas Carol adaptation and then take out everything from the book?! Like, there are fundamental plot points they skipped in favor of flashy over-the-top special effects that served no purpose and didn't further the story at all.
Anyway, here's the thoughts I typed up on my phone while watching it:
"We should have watched the Muppets Christmas Carol (oh my word that's the first one how telling xD)
Why did they give Scrooge a dog?! He never spent extra money on lamp oil, why would he for a dog?! (dog had -17 narrative value btw)
Too many random characters in this
Scrooge hasn't said humbug enough (Idk if he actually ever DID say it at any point and to be fair the movie wasn't very loud but he SHOULD say it a few times at the beginning it's his CATCHPHRASE)
Why does the ghost of Christmas past look Like That? She's supposed to look like a kid not a candle (also she was irritating)
Too many theatrics (why did they travel through the Time Vortex every time Scrooge went somewhere with the ghosts?! why did reality keep fracturing during musical numbers?!)
Where's my nice aesthetic scene of Scrooge flying over rooftops?
If Scrooge isn't scared witless by the ghost of Christmas yet to come you're doing it wrong.
(at the end when he's changed) Where's him tricking Bob and being mischievous?! (like seriously one of my FAVORITE parts is when he goes to Bob's house like "how dare you not be at work today, jk here's a pay raise :)")
Ugh, this movie was annoying, gorgeous animation but the story was BUTCHERED in favor of special effects.
On the upside, Tiny Tim was adorable."
Also Scrooge wasn't really... how do I say this? I was more annoyed than horrified by him. Like, he's not a *presence* like he should be, he's just kind of grumpy. They tried to portray him as sympathetic from the very beginning which is NOT how he's supposed to be and I think it backfired in all ways. He turns out feeling kind of wishy-washy, not an awful, evil miser, but also not a nice guy.
The whole ending was a mess, it COULD have helped the movie A LOT if they had gone the traditional route but nah, Scrooge invited some random kids into his house and they decorated it offscreen and then all the people he ever wronged just showed up at his house for dinner. No turkey the size of Tiny Tim, no shocking everyone by showing up and being suddenly friendly, Idk, it was just extremely disappointing.
I think the theatrics around the ghosts actually made them less intimidating/frightening, especially the ghost of Christmas future. Like, ghost of Christmas present just kinda melts and turns into Future and there's a storm and a ring of fire and Idk man, it was just too over the top. The whole movie was like that and it just got really old really fast.
And WHY did they give Scrooge a weird tragic backstory? The whole point was that he CHOSE this life, he wasn't FORCED into it by circumstance (I read a review that pointed out that instead of his traditional backstory they gave Scrooge Dickens' backstory and just... why).
Also the songs were totally unmemorable, there weren't even lines or tunes from it that stuck in my head. You know what's been playing in my head instead? Songs from the Muppet Christmas Carol.
The only good thing was that it did keep the kids' focus for quite a bit. Like, for prek it was fine I guess but it was just kind of mind-numbing and annoying as an adult. tbh I think the kids only were interested because of the flashing lights and colors and they largely lost interest after snack and I can't blame them.
I think the movie could have been decent if it had kept the original plot points and had Scrooge be miserly and totally unperceptive to Christmas at first like he is traditionally. They could still have added stuff but they should have kept the original story. Like, I didn't mind the scene where I think??? Scrooge and Marley evicted Bob Cratchit's parents when Bob was a baby. Like, that could have added some interesting depth if they'd DONE anything with it besides show it to us. And Scrooge's "transformation" was so watered down it hardly mattered.
Anyway, it kept the kids entertained for an hourish so I guess that's the important thing, but next time we have a movie day I'm definitely offering to bring something in to watch. xD
#movies#a christmas carol#rant#scrooge 2022#no hate to anyone who liked it btw it was simply not my cup of tea at all
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Wait if Revali was in an idol group who else would be in it and what would their debut song be, plus theme?? Like would it be the rito like Teba Harth etc or would it be like a mix of people (like Teba and sidon and others etc etc) plus what would their name be just curious… or revs positions you know the drill
u know now that i think about it oomfie i think u were the one who was putting newjeans on my dashboard a couple weeks back i should have known u were a kpopper 🤣 also kpop idol positions are always the strangest thing to me so i had to do a little review LMAO
if you wanna be fr, revali wouldn't want to be in an idol group at all, he wanted to be a soloist. but the managers were like no you would do good in a group, debut in a group first and we'll talk about solo later if you're successful enough. so revali fucking hates all these other guys but he is a good asf actor and is so good at delivering fanservice y'all would have never thought he was praying on his bandmates' downfalls KDJFJKDFK i wouldn't have been surprised if it was actually revali tipping off dispatch to give the others scandals
revali is the main vocalist and dancer the maknae LMAO (transl: youngest) of the group RiTO which stands for "Rising To Own", which refers to the group's belief that if "the sky is limit", they must rise higher to break the limit and go beyond it in order to own their true selves. i think it would be funny if since the word is "rising", fans debate on whether to pronounce the acronym as "ree-to" or "rai-to" and even years after the group's debut, people are still fighting online about how to pronounce it. then you got some freaks who say each letter out loud or straight up skip over the "i" to say RTO. RiTO fans are called "ownwings" because they are the wings that allow the group to rise and break the limit, as well as being encouragement to the fans to use their own wings to fly up and achieve lofty dreams together with RiTO. was that kpop-y enough LMFAO i should be a kpop ceo fr fr
the other members of the group include members leader and main rapper teba, lead rapper lead dancer harth, lead vocalist and visual kass, and leader dancer sub vocalist mimo. ages from oldest to youngest goes as mimo, kass, teba-harth (same year teba is older), and then revali. kass is the face of the group, revali and teba switch between being centers a lot, and revali is their all-rounder. i mentioned having to review kpop positions bc shit like "main" vs "lead" always confuses me, so for my non-kpop mutuals, you can refer to this article for more in-depth explanations.
my instinct was to say that they do a "refreshing" concept ASTRO-style because the rito=birds=air=refreshing, but like... do you Really think teba, harth, revali, and mimo could do your standard run-of-the-mill kpop refreshing concept LMFAOKDJFDK
teba and harth's generally gruff and cold-shoulder personalities throw me off trying to come up with ideas for this, because imagining them as kpop idols is so fucking funny. these guys are the dads who will drop their kids off at the TWICE concert grumpy asf as if they're not going home blasting FEEL SPECIAL in the car like ✋😭 (they would never admit it out loud, but teba's bias is jihyo because he respects how long she was a trainee to achieve her dream and harth's is jeongyeon because he likes how her tomboyish charm sets her apart from the rest of the group).
so just because canonically 4/5 of the group are older dilf characters (yes i think mimo is a dilf), i would say their debut concept at the very least would be something that's dark/mature/sexy? i'm thinking they're gonna do something like a kingsman concept bc i feel like that fits their vibe. like iirc the movie 'kingsman' was super popular in south korea so maybe that's what makes them skyrocket in popularity. RiTO debuts with a fresh gentlemen-spy concept and the music video has a story that eventually becomes full-scale lore throughout the rest of their music.
i mentioned revali being a hating ass little bitch when he has to debut in a group but also consider him being like 16-17 while the other members are 18-21 already. these guys are older than him in an industry that is known to be extremely competitive, full of rivalries and harmful health habits that could crush revali if he's not quick or clever enough :( he's just a baby in this industry tbh. so — and stay with me here — i'm imagining teba being the leader and figuring out that revali is just constantly furious and irritated and seething because he wants to be a soloist and not in a group, so he dads revali a bit as his leader and tries to get to know him and get him to calm down. just revali and teba bonding 🥺 and revali eventually not being a hater anymore and slowly having more brotherly bonds with the other members. he becomes their little baby 🥹🤍 always mussing his hair up and giving him bear hugs and teasing him lightheartedly where revali scoffs and pushes them away, but inside he feels warm because he was an only child with parents who were always working.
imagining baby trainee revali who practices the choreo of their debut for hours until he collapses from exhaustion in the practice room, and teba comes in to tell him to go to sleep just as revali falls to the floor. teba immediately shouts for harth who's just down the hall and then goes running to revali to make sure he didn't hit his head or anything. the kid is sweaty and red-faced from how much he danced, completely conked the fuck out from how exhausted he is. harth comes and they carry him to his bed, and try to wake him up so revali can at least drink some water and see if he'll be able to wash up himself, and the whole experience is life-changing for revali because he's like. why did u do all this. and teba and harth are like ??? you're part of the team, we have to take care of each other? and you're the youngest... we have to take care of you especially. and revali is just wide-eyed and about to cry because what the hell. these people actually care about him??????
also manager kaneli and CEO valoo lmfaodkjfdkj. i'm torn between a couple of ideas for the company name because it's either like (1) RiTO is under 'TBNTH (Tabantha) Entertainment' which is a subsidiary of HEBRA Labels, (2) RiTO is under the company 'hebra ent.', OR (3) RiTO is under HEBRA ENT. which is a subsidiary of HYRULE CORPORATION. however for the last one, that would imply that were i to make link a kpop idol as well (😳), he would be in a company that is also a subsidiary to hyrule corp. not that it matters too much but i just think it would be funny if it was like. revali was from a Big 3 company whereas link was from an underdog company like bighit when it first started out. or maybe it does start like that and link's company becomes a subsidiary under one of the other Big 3 companies (Hyrule Corp, TWILI Industries, and TeRMiNA Labels?). i considered also doing something like RiTO being under [company named after hebra/tabantha] which is a subsidiary of [corporation label named after wind waker dragon roost island] but idk.
i'm not gonna go too into link's presence or revalink's relationship here unless you request it since you only asked about revali and i wanna keep the focus on him for this post 😭 but i think kpop idol!link OR fan!link would be very interesting for this au. like what about link who goes from fan to idol p1harmony-keeho style 😭 imagine if link was making tweets about revali like that one busanwings tweet before becoming an idol LIKE DKJFHDKJFHJDF
if link is only just a kpop idol, then him and revali are for SURE getting into dispatch dating rumor scandals. (for non-kpop oomfs, dispatch is a news company notorious in south korea for stalking kpop idols and dishing out scandals on them frequently). it'll be some stupid shit like "H3RO's Link was seen exiting the Slippery Falcon Cafe wearing a shirt similar to RiTO's Revali. Could it be the two idols are seeing each other?" because dating rumors have actually happened in kpop like that 😭
also consider them getting in a dating rumor, and where revali's managers are furious and revali doesn't want to be involved with this nugu, link is completely starry-eyed because revali is actually his idol and the reason why he pursued being an idol, and his company is actually thrilled because ahaha bad publicity is still publicity, right? especially if it has to do with one of the top groups out there right now!
#revalink#loz#botw#loz botw#legend of zelda#amihan's revalinkverse#ask#noraiir-arts#idol au#I'M SAWRY I CACKLED WRITING THE MEANING OF THE GROUP'S NAME#TELL ME THAT'S NOT HOW ALL THE NEW KPOP GRPS SOUND LIKE DEBUTING W THEIR CRAZY ASS NAMES#back in my day they used to openly call themselves goofy shit like Bulletproof Boyscouts!#the kids these days are naming themselves after orders of angels and grammatical symbols and making it fakedeep#i'm jk i love leslayrafim and -#in this au kass teba and harth's kids will just be their younger siblings#and saki & amali will be kass n teba's secret gfs that the company said they can't have because dating ban#don't ask me about link's group name in this one i just chose a random word and tried to make it look like a kpop group name#anyways when the group disbands they say in their disbandment song that the limit never existed and they just wanted to fly with ownwings#HEKJFDSJKHFJKSDHFJSDKFHLKDSFJHSKDLFJHDS#ISN'T THAT SO CORNY AND SO KPOPPISH#IM LAUGHING CRYING SO HARD RN#don't ask me why i put mimo from eventide island#i wasn't gonna put fyson either that kid is too lazy to be an idol
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Jen Tortures Herself With Every Dreamworks Animated Movie Ever: Trolls
So uhhhhh this movie. Kind of took me by surprise??? I went in expecting to hate this, thinking it would be annoyingly loud and bright and simple. What I got... wasn't quite what I thought it would be. Let's get into it.
The Trolls are a fun-loving, happy-go-lucky race of singing and dancing creatures, though they're constantly at ends with the miserable Bergens who want to eat them to get a taste of happiness. After escaping from the Bergens 20 years ago, the Trolls are thriving, until they're discovered by the ousted Bergen Chef, who captures a handful of Princess Poppy's friends, so she sets out with the perpetually grumpy Branch to rescue them. Along the way, they discover there may be a way to bring happiness to the Bergens and save their fellow Trolls alike.
So yeah, a very fantastical, fairy-taleish plot, one that took a few actually interesting, unexpected twists and turns. Don't get me wrong, this isn't a very complicated film, it wears its message of "Happiness is inside you" on its sleeve shamelessly. And yet... I don't know how, but it managed to... genuinely engage me?
Yeah, seriously. I actually kind of liked this? I don't know if it was because the emotions actually managed to hit or if I found the Bergens to be compelling antagonists/anti-heroes or if I started to really enjoy the dynamic between Poppy and Branch or what but like... fuck. Trolls is actually kind of ok? I feel like I'm going crazy just saying that. Like LOOK at that image up there and tell me that's the kind of movie anyone over the age of 6 would enjoy. And yet... I sort of did?
The movie, however, is certainly not without its faults. Its a jukebox musical and that's really not my cup of tea. The pop songs they picked for this are... tolerable, I guess, but hearing a lot of them kind of abruptly pulled me out of the plot so damn fast. Like I said, this is also a very simple movie, one with simple humor (save for a few insane adult jokes I couldn't believe they managed to sneak in there), and simple characters.
Poppy is... ok. She's kind of a bit too perpetually upbeat and cheery for me and yet she's not too over the top like I'd feared she'd be. By contrast, I really liked Branch! He's the straight man to literally all of the other Trolls around him and his dry sarcasm brought a lot of texture to what would have otherwise been a zany, goofy cast. The Bergens do much of the same, from the conflicted King Gristle, to the lovestruck scullery maid Bridget, to our villain, the insane, girlboss Chef, who just stole the show whenever she was on screen.
The visuals in this are also really nice? Like yes, its agressively bright and colorful but it works, I think? Like everything in this world feels like its made out of felt and fabric, very soft and fuzzy to the point that you can practically feel it. The designs for some of these creatures and backgrounds is actually really pretty in their own unique way? Of course, this is coming from someone who likes a lot of color anyway. If you like something a little more grounded visually, this probably isn't the movie for you.
So yeah, Trolls was... ok. Again, I'm fucking shocked, because I'd always been lead to believe this was Dreamworks in their peak cynical cashgrab era but... there's something to this movie that I didn't expect would be there. It's not fantastic by any means, but it has... some substance. And based on what I knew about this film going in, that's certainly more than I was expecting.
Overall Rating: 6/10
Verdict: SINGING KILLED YOUR GRANDMA
Previous Review (Kung Fu Panda 3)
Next Review (The Boss Baby)
#jen watches#dreamworks watch#dreamworks#trolls#dreamworks trolls#jen tortures herself with every dreamworks animated movie ever made
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FOUR THEMED THAI BL SERIES RECOMMENDATIONS
by me (key)
INTRO
I've done top-ten lists before, but I think a better approach than a numbered list is to order them by why I'm recommending them. Some of my favorites are well-known, but a few gems definitely went overlooked in international fandom for various reasons (accessibility, aired during an over-saturated season, etc.), so I wanted to give them a li'l well-deserved boost. Anyway, here are four of my top fifteen selected at random:
¶ IF YOU LIKE A SOLID PLOT
Triage (2022)
Synopsis: Third-year emergency medicine resident Tin has to cope with a deluge of different patients every day. Up until the eighteenth, that is. Tin's life is transformed when university student Tol's car is overturned and he's rushed to the emergency room in serious condition. That night doesn't end when Tin fails to save Tol's life, though. When Tin next wakes, he finds himself in a time loop, a loop he won't be able to leave until he's altered Tol's fate.
Review: This was TaeTee's comeback series after years apart, and it was a massive hit domestically. Due to geoblocking and paywalls (AISPLAY is a notoriously challenge for international viewers), it didn't really take off as a fandom among overseas fans. But oh, is this worth it. Whatever way you choose to watch, I highly, highly recommend this one. The time-loop premise is genuinely fascinating, and so is the actual story structure.
And there are cats!!!
Plot-wise, I'd say Triage has the best writing of any BL series I've seen. More than once, I was texting a friend who'd already seen it, "This is like a show-show!" And what I mean by that is that a lot of BL series still seem to lean on genre-specific tropes to please audiences. They don't really bother themselves with things like character arcs or basic storytelling elements. And those series have value too! Sometimes mindless entertainment is all we want. But if you're in the mood for a series with a plot, some mystery, one of my favorite female characters, one of my favorite side couples, and some brilliant character arcs, definitely give Triage a watch.
Tin is brilliant and analytical but a very broken lightbulb when it comes to most social situations.
Important Note: If you've seen Cutie Pie and/or Love in the Air, you need to see Triage just to witness the incredible duality of Tonnam's acting skills. Sing easily is one of my top five favorite BL characters. He's the grumpy parent friend who will call you stupid for working when you're sick and then bring you soup and an electric blanket. I love him so much, so please love him also and help me write more SingGap fics please there are only like three of us out here and we need more please we're very hungry.
¶ IF YOU LIKE CHARACTER-DRIVEN STORIES
Between Us (2022)
Synopsis: Team is a talented swimmer who just entered university. However, when it comes to swim competitions, he's never able to perform to the best of his abilities. When swim team upperclassman Win comes to know that the problem doesn't lie in Team's abilities or dedication, but rather his trauma and the sleeping difficulties it causes, he offers up his own room for Team to stay in. With the comfort of company, Team's performance starts to improve and feelings start to grow between the two young men. But Team isn't the only one with issues from his past preventing him from moving forward. Win struggles with how to handle receiving love and how to give special treatment to those closest to him. Occurring parallel to the events of "Until We Meet Again," this story focuses on how Win and Team come to know and inspire growth in each other.
We're in The House of WinTeam, you knew it'd be here.
Review: Between Us was first announced in May 2020 (on Win's birthday no less!). WinTeam got me into Thai BL through two gif sets here on Tumblr that I randomly stumbled across in February 2020. I marathoned what was available of Until We Meet Again, and it became and continued to be my favorite BL series until Between Us started airing last month.
Between Us is essentially a series about character studies. Like its parallel series Until We Meet Again, most of the conflicts in Between Us are internal and stem from various sources of trauma (survivor's guilt, parental neglect, parental abuse, etc.). These internal conflicts prevent characters from reaching for love and personal attachments because they don't feel like they deserve them.
This is basically Self-Sabotage: The Series.
The Production's Pandemic Problem: Depictions of trauma, friendship, and queer experiences in Until We Meet Again and Between Us are all handled and framed with profound respect and understanding, and I think a lot of that comes from its director and screenwriter. Both LazySheep and New Siwaj have shared their personal experiences with depression, and throughout the pandemic, they supported each other through their respective struggles. New was running a small agency/studio and supporting actors and staff while legally unable to film any series, and Sheep faced additional ongoing medical conditions along with a demanding full-time job that prevented her from working on Hemp Rope's script adaptation.
At what I presume was a particularly low point for Sheep last August, New made a public announcement that he'd be giving her an unlimited amount of time to heal and rest. He explained that he didn't want to weigh her down more with a deadline, so he made it clear to fans and general public alike that she had his full support and could recover at whatever pace she needed.
Meanwhile, BounPrem had gotten an incredible boost of popularity from their roles in Until We Meet Again…right as covid cases ramped up around the world. For the next two years, they were limited in what roles they could accept because their priority has always been their roles as WinTeam in Between Us. No one had any idea when cases would subside or rise and alter production schedules, and because of that, the only roles BounPrem felt they could accept without affecting Between Us were bit roles in other series. They never complained about the wait, they never abandoned Between Us even though they easily could have moved on, and they never treated their smaller roles with anything but good-natured dedication. In October of 2021, Boun surprised Prem with a cake at an event and, after Prem clapped along with the crowd looking for the recipient, Boun explained with a smile that it was Team's birthday, and Prem laughed with utter delight. No one loves WinTeam or Between Us more than BounPrem.
Studio Wabi Sabi announced Between Us in May 2020 to the delight of fans and actors alike, but the pandemic made the production they envisioned all but impossible. For example, they needed the university as a filming location, but it had been shut down. The Thai government also threw out sporadic restrictions on series production: at one point only twelve people could be present on a film set at a time. Wabi Sabi actually did have production of one series (7 Project) canceled for six months, so they'd already experienced what might happen if they started work on Between Us during the early stages of the pandemic. As fans' complaints increased, with some pointing to the release of new series produced by larger, better-resourced studios like GMMTV, New responded honestly. He tweeted more than once that he could have produced Between Us at any time during the pandemic if all he wanted was the fans' money. He could have filmed a cheap, extremely limited series and thrown it up online to get it done and out of the way.
It's because he was devoted to Sheep's story, his actors' careers, and his own craft that New waited until he could begin filming with reasonable confidence that the government wouldn't cavalierly shut it down. It's because he waited that we have the beautifully filmed, beautifully written, beautifully acted series we have now.
The series itself is up to episode six now, and it's above and beyond what I could have imagined. Sheep clearly had the time and space to create the best possible adaptation from her unfinished novel, BounPrem have had years to build on their mutual trust and professional relationship, and New had the patience to wait until conditions were best.
This has mostly been about the production side, but that will always be a big part of why I recommend this series to people, even once it's finished and I can review it as a whole. The passion and patience is clear in every scene, and because of that I can't recommend this series more wholeheartedly.
¶ IF YOU WERE A THEATRE KID
Something in My Room (2022)
Synopsis: Phat just moved into a new rental house with his mother. There, he meets Phob, an amnesiac ghost, and has to help Phob solve the mystery of his death within forty-nine days of Phob's death. Will they succeed?
Review: I could have titled this category many things: if you like women, if you like multifaceted characters, if you like stories that explore death with unique culturally specific aspects, if you like couples who support and learn from each other, if you like beautiful use of music, if you like LOVE, then Something in My Room.
But there's just something very theatrical to SIMR. (Literally, at one point.) It feels experimental in some ways it's filmed, it lets actors take their time with some moments in ways that feel rewarding, and I just…it feels a little niche to me in that way.
There are four complex female characters in this series. FOUR. And not minor characters, either. Major, significant characters. The actor who plays their landlady is incredible and having the time of her life being enthusiastically spooky, and I ship her with Phat's mother and no one can stop me. Phat's friend Dream also has a fantastically complicated backstory that influences the story directly. Not to mention Phob's mother and just??? Four!!! In a BL?! Seriously, if you're like me and you side-eye every BL series that has nineteen guys and one vaguely woman-shaped lamppost hidden in the background, Something in My Room is the breath of fresh air you've been searching for.
Unfortunately, this series flopped domestically and internationally, but I'm not going to pretend I know why. Personally, I blame the geoblocking and the badly cut free edit they released that confused and lost viewers early on, but it's also possible that this is just a series that didn't resonate with people as strongly as it did with me, and I'll have to live with that. SOMEHOW.
However! Look at my boys. Look at my ghost boy Phob and his alive boyfriend Phat. They just got dead-engaged. :'(
This is a series that was clearly made with a lot of heart and a lot of emotion. It also has a veiled political message in one character's backstory that I'm still blown away by because they hid it so cleverly to get it past censorship. PhobPhat are easily in my top ten favorite couples, and Supanut and Plan have fantastic chemistry.
If it's not for you, that's totally fine. All I hope is that more people give the uncut version a try. Supanut (Phob) gave my favorite acting moment in any series in the last episode, and it haunts me (ha) to this day.
(Also, if you're worried about the ending being sad, I think it's as happy as it could have ended, and I'm a baby when it comes to sad endings. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I was really happy with how it ended.)
¶ IF YOU LIKE SLOW-BURN ROMANCE
SOTUS (2016) + SOTUS S (2017) + Our Skyy (2018)
Synopsis: The "Gear" is one of the engineering mechanical devices in the cogwheel system (as in a clock). Having one signifies that one is a student of the Faculty of Engineering. However, to get one, all engineering freshmen must first undergo the SOTUS (acronym for Seniority, Order, Tradition, Unity, and Spirit) system. Arthit, one of the third-year seniors, often abuses his power over the freshmen by making them do things against the rules. Freshmen students are practically powerless to complain or resist any orders given by their seniors. Arthit was seemingly unstoppable until Kongpob stood up against the abuses by the former. Continual encounters between the two developed from animosity to something much more affectionate.
Review: Whenever I see people recommend SOTUS, it's usually because it's a "classic" and one of the major cornerstones of the industry. I think it's also important to describe it as a slow-burn so people know what they're signing up for. Personally, SOTUS and its sequel have yet to be kicked from my top five (I count them together). The character-building is fantastic, there's a legitimate character arc for Arthit that spans three iterations with the same mental block that takes on different forms in each one, and Kongphob also matures and becomes more and more multifaceted. If you're not a character person, if you're more about the surrounding plot, SOTUS probably won't do it for you.
The first series is fifteen episodes, and by the time Kongphob actually talks about his feelings for Arthit, it feels earned and authentic. SOTUS remains one of the best-written series, I think, with some of the strongest pacing. When I heard that SOTUS saved GMMTV from bankruptcy, I had no trouble believing it. They gambled on giving a BL series a substantial budget in 2015 (airing in 2016), and it absolutely paid off.
Also, just on a wildly destiny-like note, Bittersweet based her novel on a viral photo of Singto acting as head hazer, Krist became a hazer because he was Singto's junior, and then they ended up playing the opposite roles. Just fun to think about, especially with loud extrovert Krist playing the older, shyer character and quiet introvert Singto playing the younger, brasher character.
I play the instrumental "Distant Signals" at least once a week (it's on Spotify under Harry Angstrom and Jonathan Buchanan). It's one of the best examples of music done right in a series, I'd say, and I'm a big fan of when a piece of media uses music well. There are songs in SOTUS S that just pierce my heart if I hear them in passing.
And SPEAKING of SOTUS S, it's like Between Us in that the conflict is almost purely internal. I'm really, really into character-driven stories, and as a queer person who felt pressured back into the closet at my first office job after being extremely open in university? A series set in an office about a queer character who feels pressured back into the closet after being extremely open in university hit a few personal buttons. I think it's still the only series that's fully represented that experience for me. The side stories at the end of every episode showing how open and confident Arthit was when he was in the safe bubble of university compared to how anxious he is in the working world absolutely ruins my heart.
And then there's KongArt themselves. I love them as characters. Episode one of SOTUS feels like a fever dream compared to the rest of the series (and it might have been a pilot to sell sponsors, tbh), because Arthit becomes one of the softest and shyest characters in all of Thai BL.
arthit: i love you
kongphob: say it again
arthit: no i love you
What I appreciate most about SOTUS is that it's one of the few series that's been given multiple iterations. SOTUS established the relationship between KongArt, SOTUS S explored that relationship at its low point, and Our Skyy tested that relationship by pressing down on its weak point. I think, aside from the actors' popularity, the depth that KongArt's relationship was given is one of the reasons why fans still love the pairing years and years after the source material ended. Arthit's insecurity fuels every conflict, but in ways that I feel are realistic. Every time his anxiety and self-worth issues become a conflict, it's for a different reason, and it's realistic to me that our fears can be partially dissuaded but not completely erased.
In conclusion: these boys all need therapy. I'm casting a vote for Therapy: The Series.
#thai bl#thai bl recommendations#triage the series#between us the series#something in my room#sotus the series#bounprem#nutplan#taetee#kristsingto#winteam#tintol#phobphat#kongart
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Bump Up Business Review
I just binged the entire show, and...really don't know what to think lol This is a drama in which idols from a group that first gained notoriety by overtly appealing to shipping culture in their choreography and MVs and then moved to making explicitly queer music videos that were dedicated to giving visibility and garnering acceptance for love between two men [the song dedications are in the official video descriptions], are starring as idols being asked to follow a "business gay" concept but who actually fall in love. This is...complicated.
Overall, this was better than I was braced for. It was a lot of fun watching OOO act, and the OST is great. Lots of flaws but I didn't feel like I wasted my time.
Spoilers below the cut.
Things I liked about the drama:
Both of them already knew they were gay from ep1 (it's unclear whether Eden is homophobic based on his childhood experience, but my takeaway was that he was trying to hide his homosexuality rather than being in denial. He is clearly super interested in Jihoon from jump and has to keep talking himself down. And we get him explicitly calling J his first love, which to me makes it clear his 'what do you mean, how could a guy be a first love' to Jihoon was his attempt to wave that off without outright saying Jihoon was wrong.
This means that unlike what I was bracing for, this was two various-states-of-closeted gay men in a homophobic but also ship-driven industry being asked to pretend to have affection for one another for views while they develop real affection for one another. Much more interesting than thought-I-was-straight drama!
The chemistry between Nine and Mill is of course excellent; for those who don't know OnlyOneOf they were already a ship before this series and are the stars of the last two music videos in their Be series.
Real kiss on camera (though see the list below)
I liked the OST main song , which is lucky because it repeats a couple of times
The we-met-in-childhood couple was not endgame for once!
Things I did not like:
This drama is really short, and the story is too complicated for the length (there are TWO love rivals?!; just generally it tried to give emotional weight to too many things and as a result nothing had emotional weight)
What happened between Hyunbin and Jihoon is not clear; it seems like Hyunbin conspired with Go Ra-eun to drug and take compromising photos of Jihoon so as to create rumours...I'm really not clear whether this was to hide their romance or to make him stop his idol activities, though I'm guessing the latter.
This drama didn't seem like it could decide whether it was in the BL world or the real world (in which homophobia exists). The CEO seemed fine with the idea of Jay and Eden dating; but Hyunbin challenged Eden that if he pursued Jihoon he'd have to tell his family and friends about him.
The acting was very uneven (Nine and Mill's acting was surprisingly good for most of it; I liked Mill's version of sunshine and Nine's version of grumpy)
The CEO is somewhat villainized as only caring about her agenda and not caring about the wellbeing of her idols, but this is also shown to be good business, so I'm not really sure it is successful in making a point about the industry, if it was trying to.
Similarly there was not enough in the way of exploring the impact and consequences of feeding into shipping culture for my taste; I feel like this show wants credit for criticizing this type of approach without actually criticizing it (other than the one moment where Eden says it's wrong and is ignored).
It drives me mad that the kiss we got was explicitly stated to be "business only" even though it clearly wasn't; it was also (less clearly) a drunk kiss; why do a kiss fake-out at the end? I assume it was to not encourage fans in thinking Nine & Mill are real, but if that's the concern then don't do this plot in the first place?
There was no good explanation for why Jihoon was avoiding Eden and why he was so successful; how had Eden gone from "I'll talk to him directly" to not going into Jihoon's dressing room to talk?
The water trauma was really glazed over
It ends in a really precarious spot, it's not clear at all what their future will be, whether they'll be allowed to stay in the group and date, whether they'll continue, etc.
Just generally this show started a lot of threads and did not do a good job maintaining them or keeping things moving evenly.
I don't have a rating system, so I'll just say: It's a good binge if you're bored. I feel like I still need to sit with the storyline about the idols but as it stands: it's complicated.
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Good Omens s2 thoughts!
I was expecting it to be really fanservicey based on the reviews going woooo it's so fanservicey! But ... it only felt fanservicey in that the fans really wanted to see Aziraphale and Crowley interact more, and so we got more episodes and they're the main feature.
Crowley's angelic hair killed me, what on EARTH was that.
Muriel's so cute, oh my god, they're so cute I love them so much they should have been in so much more of the show.
Is it just me or is the sound mixing/leveling really bad? I feel like I missed a lot of lines all over the place.
MAGGIE AND NINA! They work as A/C parallels both ways, don't they? Like, obviously Maggie is the Sunshiney One and Nina is the Grumpy One, but Maggie's also the one who stands up to the demons, and Nina's abusive relationship isn't far from Aziraphale's with Heaven.
I did think that setting the magic show stuff right after the Blitz shenanigans undercut the Blitz shenanigans. Also felt like Elspeth accepted her gf's death and the selling of her body pretty fast. need to rewatch that one.
But I loved that Crowley addressed the fact that Gabriel told Aziraphale to shut up and die - you want to talk fanservice, that's fanservice.
LOVED THE BALL! The seamstress conversation ... (There was also "C.M.O.T. Dibbler" on the laudanum bottle in The Resurrection Men.)
More actual fanservice: Gabriel and Beelzebub alliance/romance. I do find it kind of funny that "Everyday" is their song ... I was imagining Aziraphale trying to take steps toward liking modern music for Crowley by listening to dorky 1950s pop (/affectionate).
VERY obvious A/C parallel though, yikes, like it treads over the line from "cute" to "gratuitous". But it could just be that I never got into Gabriel/Beelzebub during the interim. But like ... there's a LOT of character development necessary to make me believe that someone as shitty as s1 Gabriel could fall in love with anyone at all let alone an opponent, and we didn't really get any of it.
It's also a bit weird to follow the acceptance of this frankly bizarre relationship with Maggie and Nina, who make a lot more sense and have more of an arc together, giving the "you can't just push us together, we need time" speech?
Whyyyyy would Aziraphale still be on the "Heaven is good" train after like the entire point of the first season being that he learns that choosing to be their own side >>>>>> working for Heaven?
(I have already come around on this jsyk. I absolutely buy that his takeaway from Notmageddon was that God meant for him and Crowley and Adam et al. to stop it, and that the real problem was that Michael, Gabriel et al. wanted it for their own messy reasons.)
Oh man, Crowley hates trying to express how he feels and I love it.
fjdskljfkldsjfljsdkfjlksjflkdsjlkfjlkdsjflksdjfkjlksjflkdsjflkjskfjslkJAGFSJDLK
So on the one hand I'm like, "Good, an angsty ending, nothing like that to light a fire under a fandom and get them writing the most passionate fix-it fic"
On the other, what an INCREDIBLE bait-and-switch, showing us the kiss in the "queer liplock sizzle reel" and then having it be entirely one-sided and Aziraphale freaked out afterward. I am living. This is studio malfeasance at its finest and I am frankly delighted to have been fucked with.
Also lmao Metatron replacing Gabriel as the abusive boyfriend in all the AUs when?
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Sometimes I think we forget the shit Harry went through. The way you explained it in this chapter just made me want to give Harry the biggest hug ever. His childhood was bad like Sirius, but in a way worse because he never really got a break at school, and despite all of it he’s such a great guy who wears his heart on his sleeve, loves to the fullest, and protects the people he loves with every fibre of his body. I don’t get why he has so many haters, how can people hate Harry Potter? I think a lot of people hated him because of what happened to Sirius. I get it, it was a huge mistake but if he was told about Voldemort being able to possess his mind and the prophecy then he wouldn’t have fallen for that trap. And as much as we loved Sirius can you imagine how devastating it was for Harry to lose the only person outside of the Weasley’s that cared for him? That gave him hope of having a family of his own. This was the main reason he broke up with Ginny in HBP. The fear that Voldemort would find out he loves her and then plant a false vision that would cause him to drop everything to save her but result in it actually hurting her or worse killing her.
This got me thinking in Brumous of Harry finds out Voldemort is still lurking in his mind without his knowledge and that’s how they found out Cepheus… this kid is going to be devastated. I think he would try to pull away from everyone and ask them not to tell him anything. Does Voldemort lurk in his mind when he’s with Ginny? I feel like he wouldn’t be able to because when he’s with Ginny he feels so loved and so much love for her that it would mentally hurt Voldemort to lurk in his mind like in OTP when Harry was willing to die so he could be with his loved ones.
I’m going to put on my completely amateur psychology hat for a few moments.
I don’t think people want Harry to be a kid. I don’t think they want him to act his age. I don’t think they enjoy characterizations where Harry acts like a teenager. It’s not just Harry I’ve seen this treatment of. I saw it in Legerdemain with Lily. People hated that she acted her age and wanted her to be more mature. I’ve seen it in Ron bashing because he had some jealousy issues AS A KID.
Here’s the thing. The human brain doesn’t stop developing until around age 25. So these characters aren’t adults. They don’t know everything. And they’re going to do/say stupid ass things. They’re going to act before they think. They’re going to think they know everything but they really don’t.
Even in Brumous, I’ve gotten reviews complaining about how Harry is annoying, too whiny, too clingy. But he’s also a severely neglected and abused kid who has an adult who cares about him for the first time ever. Of course, he’s clingy. Of course, he’s whiny because he wants to know what’s going on and make sure his only family is all right. Of course, he’s up Sirius’ ass because Sirius nearly drank himself to death while battling depression.
You can see the shift in Harry from OOTP to HBP. In OOTP, he was reckless with running his mouth and jumping into danger. In HBP, he tried to let the adults take the lead. He TOLD Remus about Malfoy in hopes that he’d do something. But like every other adult in his life (minus Sirius), he was told off. He was dismissed. Sirius was the only adult who ever worked out problems with Harry, who talked to Harry like he knew a little what he was talking about, and just listened to the kid.
Sirius isn’t a patient man. Sirius can be moody and grumpy and downright vicious. But with Harry, he’s like a saint with how patient he was! He let Harry ramble on for who knows how long in GOF while he’s in a fireplace of a house he broke into! He just let Harry talk and vent and didn’t even interrupt the kid. He was there for Harry no matter what. He had the patience with Harry to listen to him. Because Sirius knows what it’s like not to have someone listen to him. He knows what it’s like to have everyone dismiss him and paint him as a villain. Sirius can emphasize with the kid in a way no one else can - from his shitty childhood, to being hated for no fucking reason, to having people around him talk down to him as an adult.
On top of that, Sirius tried very hard not to be reckless. He did not leave Grimmauld Place for Order missions or joy rides. He stayed put to show Harry it’s all right to stay put and stay out of trouble. Because Sirius knows Harry. He knows the trouble he attracts. He was trying to emulate the behavior he wanted to see. But he left at the first hint of Harry in trouble because that kid can’t stay out of trouble to save his life.
In HBP, yeah, you see Harry breaking up with Ginny because he can’t bear the thought of her ending up dead like Sirius. He’s trying to learn from his mistakes and not make them again.
In Brumous, Sirius knows he can’t tell Harry how they found Cepheus, he can’t tell Harry about the Horcrux in his head, he can’t include Harry in conversations on where to go from here. He knows Harry. He knows how good Harry is and how big of a heart that kid has. He knows Harry would pack a bag and run from Hogwarts in an attempt to save the people he cares about. Sirius is constantly trying to set healthy boundaries between him and Harry. It’s so tricky because of Harry’s past abuse. Sirius is often cracking those boundaries to make sure Harry knows he’s loved and wanted.
But I think you’re right as well. A lot of people forget about Harry’s abuse. A lot of people like to downplay his abuse.
In the MIT series, I always had Harry not be a fully well-adjusted adult. He’s a helicopter parent. He was downright anxious. He hates cutesy nicknames because he was never called anything even remotely affectionate. He freaks out over dying and leaving his kids without a dad to the point where he becomes addicted to a potion. He purposely gets his son arrested because he views Albus as safer in prison than out in the open. He’s constantly taking charge and doing what he thinks is best because he’s done it since he was a fucking kid. I always say, even in MIT, I think he was too well-adjusted of an adult for everything he went through.
I cannot stand when Harry is this well-adjusted adult in stories who gives pet names and is overly happy. That guy suffered from the moment his parents died to the time he died. Those wounds from the mental and emotional abuse he suffered lasted his entire life. You can’t convince me that there wasn’t x-amount times he did something stupid and then thought this is it, Ginny is going to divorce me. To only be shocked when Ginny assured him that she’s not going anywhere and she does, in fact, love him despite how stupid he can be. No matter how many times his loved ones tell him, there’s always that small seed of doubt in his mind. Because how could anyone love him when his own family couldn’t love him when he was just a small toddler?
But I think I went off on a tangent. 😂😂😂
I don’t understand how anyone can hate Harry. I don’t understand how anyone can look at that cabbage and not want to hug him while he awkwardly pats your back and wishing you’d stop. He is such an amazing character and I love him.
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OK, in the spirit of positivity, here are my top reads of 2022!
A bit in the way of context: I am a librarian, I read a lot, and, for better or for worse, I live and breathe books/publishing buzz/ARCs/etc. The list below is purely based on my own fully biased opinions, though those biases have nothing to do with whether I had early access to a title, a connection to the publisher, etc. and everything to do with whether a book is sad, gory, or gay. And thanks @explosionshark for suggesting I write this up!
DEAD COLLECTIONS by Isaac Fellman: holy fuck was this book good. The whole “trans vampire falling in love and solving a quiet, sad mystery in the archive where he works” angle is catchy, but this is definitely not the fluffy or straightforward story some people are after. I really loved how vampirism is depicted as a life-ruining weakness rather than a cool and sexy superpower. I also really loved the multimedia aspect of including forum posts and TV scripts and listserv chains.
BABEL: AN ARCANE HISTORY by R.F. Kuang: I think some criticisms of this one, like that it’s slow and repetitive and a little didactic, are founded. However, I couldn’t care less. R.F. Kuang excels at unhurried school stories that slowly and brutally dismantle themselves over hundreds and hundreds of pages, and the formula she establishes in the excellent Poppy War trilogy is perfected here. This is what actual dark academia looks like–The Atlas Six could never.
KISS HER ONCE FOR ME by Alison Cochrun: I used to read a lot of contemporary romance, specifically f/f romance, but after being burned over and over and over and OVER by bad books I’m incredibly selective about what I read and recommend in this genre. I gave Alison Cochrun a ton of shit for her incredibly mediocre debut, The Charm Offensive, but I am totally willing to say that she’s improved, and this book–while still definitely goofy and even grating at times–was probably the best f/f romance out in 2022 from a major publisher other than Delilah Green (which I read in 2021 and therefore did not include in this list, but also whose sequel sucked so much it honestly made me like the first one less). Do me a favor and don’t even read the back copy because it doesn’t make any fucking sense and will turn you off the book.
THE PALLBEARERS CLUB by Paul Tremblay: hoooo boy. OK. So this one got dismal reviews from the Goodreads crowd, but I believe fully and genuinely in my heart that everybody is wrong about it and should feel bad about how wrong they are. The thing is, Paul’s books are slow and atmospheric (are you sensing a theme to what kind of books I tend to like best) and there are no easy answers or moments of triumph or anything you might be led to expect via publisher-created blurbs or taglines. And going into a book with one expectation and having that expectation remain unmet is one of the quickest and simplest ways to have a bad-faith negative reaction to said book, in my personal experience. Like, could this book have been scarier? Definitely. But I loved it regardless, and I loved that the physical format of the book–Art’s memoiry fiction draft, or fictiony memoir draft, depending on your perspective, plus his best friend Mercy’s commentary written in red in the margins–is the sort of embodied story that I love because it fucking sucks to read on a screen or an ereader. You’re tied to the format, either print or audio (which I hear was well done for this one, though I haven’t heard it myself), and that’s great to me.
THE THOUSAND EYES by A.K. Larkwood: In my opinion this duology is criminally, WOEFULLY underrated. Csorwe is a grumpy butch orc warrior and she spends most of her time getting herself and her terrible frenemies out of trouble and also falling in love with a powerful sorceress. This book is the second one and is gloriously angsty and everyone gets middle-aged and sad and yet they all still pine for one another across time and space. I cried. I’m not sorry. It’s GOOD.
AN ARCHIVE OF BRIGHTNESS by Kelsey Socha: ok, full disclosure, this is my wife’s book, but it came out in August and it’s a lovely group of interwoven weird little gay stories. I would’ve loved it even if I didn’t share a mortgage with the author, I promise. Like, people live in houses made of scorpion corpses. Come on.
Honorable mentions: I didn’t really feel like getting too much into YA here, but I really liked CONFESSIONS OF AN ALLEGED GOOD GIRL by Joya Goffney, which was a really honest and interesting exploration of purity culture and religion; HOW TO EXCAVATE A HEART by Jake Maia Arlow, an interfaith winter holiday f/f romance (what a year for holiday romances, sheesh); and HELL FOLLOWED WITH US by Andrew Joseph White, a really gross and sad book that also manages to be incredibly, gleefully YA even as the protagonist morphs into a horrifying monster.
I also didn’t want to mention anything that hasn’t been released yet, so HOW TO SELL A HAUNTED HOUSE by Grady Hendrix and SOME DESPERATE GLORY by Emily Tesh are both out, even though both were SO GOOD and you should be foaming at the mouth to get your hands on them next year. And lastly, I didn’t think The Locked Tomb series needed any extra hype and if you haven’t picked it up yet it’s not like I’m going to convince you, so I didn’t bother saying anything about NONA THE NINTH although it was really very good.
And finally: I’m currently reading WHEN THE ANGELS LEFT THE OLD COUNTRY by Sacha Lamb which absolutely fucking rips so far, very much Good Omens meets Spinning Silver, but I haven’t finished it yet so it didn’t seem fair to count. I recommend it based on the first half, though!
PHEW ok that’s it! Send me your recs please!!
#books#the locked tomb#the unspoken name#grady hendrix#paul tremblay#horror#lgbtq books#romance novels#best books of the year
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Book Review #7 of 2024--
Iron Flame by Rebecca Yarros. Rating: 3.5 stars.
Read from January 26th to February 3rd.
I really said, "I'm reading slower this year" and Iron Flame really said, "fuck yeah you are." Before we get into the substance of the story, can I complain about the fact that the writing in this book is so fucking tiny? I was discussing it the other day with someone and I guessed that the book would be closer to 750 to 800 pages if it were in a normal font size. Which would make a lot of sense when I consider how much I normally read in a day and how much I read over the past week or so. I hate when books are printed in such small font. It's a horrible strain on my eyes and really makes me feel like I'm making no progress in a book.
Setting the physical book issues aside, I was disappointed with this one. Which does not feel good because I gave Fourth Wing five stars last year. I just loved my reading experience and how much joy I took out of it. And the first half of this one was up there for me. I would say the first half was sitting around a 4.5 star rating in my mind. But the rest of the book? It really drug down the rating for me.
The first half was what I was expecting the book to be. But then at the half way point we got to something that I don't like seeing in books nowadays. It was a major plot point in a lot of YA Fantasy books back in 2012-2013 and I thought we all outgrew it. But the author handled it a little better than I expected so I got over it.
Around the 75% mark was a plot point that I thought was the complaint that Fourth Wing fans had about this book. I actually wrote, "shit shit shit shit fuck damn" in my book because it was a major plot point that made me rethink everything I had read before that point. I don't hate when that happens usually. I love when something happens in a book that the author uses to make you recontextualize everything you thought you knew. It made me want to immediately reread the series up to that point. I didn't love the thing that happened but I saw how it could be interesting and how it could be used to push the story further.
But then in the last 15 pages was a plot point that made me instantly "nope" out of the story. I'm sure there are ways to make this work within the series. I just don't know if I even want to read the rest of the series. Which sucks so much. I absolutely LOVED Fourth Wing. Was it the next great American novel? Absolutely not. Was it a fun time for me and something I really enjoyed reading? Absolutely. And I thought that all of the negative response I had heard in the book community was just more people slamming Fourth Wing as a whole. But to be someone who loved the first book and walk away from the second feeling 'meh' about it? Just sucks. It was disappointing.
There were of course things I enjoyed about this one. I love the dragons. Always have, always will. Andarna is such an amazing dragon and I love her so much. And Tairn being a grumpy old man always makes me smile. I love their relationship with Violet and how they play off of each other. I also really enjoyed the settings in this one. We got to explore a couple of new places and I loved it there. The side characters got a little more love in this one and it was fun to see. Overall, it was a decent reading experience. Just disappointing in the end.
#book review#book reviews#Iron Flame#Fourth Wing#Rebecca Yarros#booklr#bookblr#bookstagram#books read in 2024#2024 reading challenge#goodreads challenge#goodreads#books#bookstack#bookshelf#bookshelves#bookcase
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ARC Review: Glitterland by Alexis Hall
4.5/5. Rereleases 1/26/2023 in audio.
Vibes: grumpy/sunshine to the nth degree, hookups to lovers, modern interclass romance, actual bipolar rep.
Ash was once a literati prodigy--but after extreme ups and downs related to his bipolar disorder diagnosis, he's stuck with pulp fiction novels. His depression and anxiety-ridden routine is rocked, however, when he hooks up with the glittery, upbeat, and very different Darian. Although he claims to want nothing, time with Darian and his sunny outlook makes Ash want everything. The question is--with all going on in his mind, can he keep it?
Oh, man, this one got me. It's hilarious, as Alexis books always are, but there's a depth here, an examination of class politics, the cynical versus the optimistic, and the issues that come with being bipolar. I say this as someone who has the same diagnosis as Ash--this hit home for me hard. I've never seen my disorder so well portrayed. And to have it wrapped up in a romance I actually loved? It just got me on a really deep level.
Quick Takes:
--Okay, so first off, I do want to talk about the bipolar rep here. Ash's disorder is not the only thing about him, and it's not the most important part of this book. This is a true romance, and Ash and Darian's relationship is the focal point. That said, this is a single POV book (which is hard to sell me on, but Alexis always does) and you see exactly what's going on in Ash's head the whole time. The ups and downs, the struggles. I wouldn't say Ash cycles particularly hard over the course of the story. He has meds that work for him. This is not a "this diagnosis is new" story.
What he does struggle with a lot accepting that he has this disorder and that it will always be a part of his life, but it does not necessarily have to dominate his life. There's a passage in this book wherein Ash is basically like "this is always going to happen, no matter what meds I'm on I will always have these episodes, this is always going to keep me from having stable relationships, this is my existence". And I've never really had my own thoughts about being bipolar spelled out so clearly for me. That was truly... validating. It's a very specific fear, committing to the idea that you will always have this and it is going to keep you from being who you would've otherwise been. There's something about having to let go of that alternate reality, while also fighting the idea that this reality basically condemns you to solitude or horrible relationships--not just romantic, but platonic and familial. It's hard.
And this shit isn't resolved completely by the end, because it can't be? Like, I fully believed in an HEA for Ash and Darian. But it'll take work!
--Alright, so onward. The characters are so lovable here. Well, with a couple of notable supporting exceptions, but they weren't supposed to be lovable (though one of them, despite doing something I personally considered unforgivable, was very HUMAN). I fucking fell in love with Ash and Darian equally, though they are absolute total opposites. I love a hero who sees the object of his affections, is ridiculously turned on, and is like "how the FUCK am I hard right now" and that is Ash. For all that Darian is obviously beautiful and obviously charming, he's not the type of beautiful and charming Ash thinks he should want... or, to be honest, thinks he deserves?
I actually related to both Ash and Darian in different ways (see: having bipolar). And I don't know if that was intentional, this contrast of dark and light, of energy and apathy, of optimism and pessimism. But it worked.
Although we're in Ash's head alone and we do get to know him better, I will say that the insights we got into Darian's life were significant enough for me to totally feel like I got him. He's bright and bubbly, but he's not flat, and he's not a manic pixie dream boy. He has responsibilities. He wants to model, but he's also in it for the money and is quite realistic about where his future lies on that front. He doesn't expect to be famous; but he does want to help support his family.
And the thing is, you need Darian to be as cheerful and lovely as he is, because Ash's head is not always easy to be in. It's dark in there. He struggles. He's funny, he's relatable, but he's not at all stress-free to read about. And the balance Alexis strikes between the two isn't just about romance; it's also about making a technically strong book. These two work together so well--but their relationship isn't easy, largely because Ash cannot accept the idea that he's capable of having a good relationship.
--There's a lot of interesting class stuff here? I'm American--but I do know that the English class system is quite different from ours. Ash has an accent Darian considers "posh" (I cannot say whether or not it is); Darian is from Essex and has what I now know is an Essex accent. I really can't speak to how this is written in the print book, because I haven't read it (yet), but I believe Alexis wrote out the accent phonetically. Either way? The narrator does an amazing job of differentiating the two. I mean, I can't speak to the accuracy of Darian's accent, but I can say these two men read as totally different and it is great.
But yeah--Ash does look down on Darian for having this really orange tan and being loud in every sense of the word and having friends with tons of Botox. At first. He has to get over a lot of shit through the course of the story, and realize that he's being an ass. It's GREAT. I love reading about a hero who's legitimately snobby and elitist and see him get over it.
--Okay, for all the deep shit, this is an amazing romcom (I mean... romdramedy? It's a romance and it's funny but also angsty, okay). There are so many moments where I just imagined the most glittery, bouncy person alive bopping in circles around a very gloomy individual in all black, dark circles under his eyes, staring into space. Except, maybe, for when his glittery guy kisses him. Ash doesn't want to admit he's falling in love with Darian, yet he can't help trying to impress him, to get close to him, to really bond with him. Sometimes this made my heart grow three sizes. Sometimes it made me laugh.
Anyway, if you love a "black cat falls for golden retriever" book. This is it. I mean, if we're being real, Darian may be more like a goldendoodle (if my mom's dog could speak, he would be like Darian--I know this) but the point stands.
--You like a grovel? You like the "baby don't leave me I miss you baby I'm sorry baby" sobbing mess shit? Oh, you will like this. I was practically high off how good this grovel was.
--There's a really interesting subplot with a supporting character that... I would not have reacted to in the same way as Ash. But I think Ash's perspective was informed by some very specific relationship things that made his decisions extremely realistic. I will say, one thing that happens to Ash due to this dynamic is one of my worst fears, and it made me feel like I'd been slapped. (In a good way. I mean, it sucked, but it was so well done. I wasn't triggered by any means.) It was also incredibly realistic, based on tastes I've had of that kind of behavior.
The Sex:
Probably my favorite sex scenes I've read in an Alexis Hall book thus far. This is a "fuck first feelings later" book (which I love). Ash and Darian have sex well before they fall in love, and Ash is soooo horny for Darian. Which bemuses him, because wanting someone this badly isn't normal for Ash. That sense of REALLY inexplicably wanting someone was so well depicted, though.
And the sex scenes themselves really worked. They were hot, they were sweet, they were... real good. A particular favorite was one that followed Ash blurting out that he has an antique desk and asking Darian if he'd like to fuck him over it. YES. PLEASE. I love someone being so attracted to the other person that they literally can't contain themselves.
There was also some exploration of different types of sex (nothing crazy, but Ash asks Darian to do something Darian isn't really familiar with) and I found that kind of like... Asking for something and discussions of comfort levels and curiosity really nice to see in a contemporary. It's less "oh ho I know it all and I'll lead you through it" and more "I would like you to do this for me if you want to do it because I think we would both enjoy it".
TW: past suicide attempt, past self harm, suicidal ideation, shaming of mental health issues.
Anyway, I thought this was great. I think it was Alexis's debut--which is crazy. The talent! I've been wanting a go at Glitterland for a while, and it did not disappoint at all.
Thanks to Netgalley and Dreamscape Media for providing me with a copy of this audiobook. All thoughts and opinions are my own.
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ARC Review of It Had to Be a Duke by Vivienne Lorret
Rating: 4/5
Heat Level: 3.5/5
Publication Date: November 28th
Premise:
When Verity Hartley lies about being betrothed to Magnus, Duke of Longhurst, she doesn't expect him to hear about it, much less show up and agree to go along with her scheme and pretend to be her betrothed for a week. Magnus is deeply unhappy about having to feign affection towards the daughter of the man that swindled him years ago, at least, until he gets to know Verity better...
Review:
This is the first book in Vivienne Lorret's new series, The Liar's Club, and the book did a good job of balancing the main plot with introducing a new cast of characters and setting up future couples. I'm particularly looking forward to the hot blond vicar (who Verity spied on while he was bathing naked, and later the man did try to court her but was rejected HARD lolol) getting his own romance.
I had a lot of fun reading this book. It featured classic Vivienne Lorret hijinks, complete with a spunky heroine, a grumpy hero, small-town shenanigans, and an old family mystery.
Verity is a messy gal— she definitely falls on the klutzy, quirky end of the spectrum but she was endearing enough, particularly in her moments of vulnerability, to make up for any over-the-top physical comedy (see: the time she fell out of a tree and ended up getting accidentally groped by the hero). A lot of her vulnerability stems from feeling like she's second best compared to her sisters, and even Magnus's sort-of betrothed. That being said, I appreciate that most of these women (barring Verity's nemesis) end up being solid friends who are very supportive of one another. I also liked how Vivienne portrayed Verity's claustrophobia and corresponding panic attacks— it's something I imagine a lot of modern readers can relate to.
Magnus is just the right amount of stern and grumpy to be endearing. Reading him slowly crack and come to terms with his attraction towards Verity was a joy to read. Really, my only (very minor) complaint is that for all the author went off about how biiiig and jacked and "swarthy" he was because he works the fields (since he can't afford a lot of workers), we never got a scene where he was actually laboring in the fields. Shirtless, preferably. But this mostly goes to show he's very duty-bound and intent on bringing his estate back to life, which is why he tries So Hard to resist Verity... until he doesn't, even as he continues to insist he's going to marry another woman for her dowry.
The second half of the book delves deeper into the mystery of exactly who swindled Magnus's father all those years ago, and it concludes in a way that sets up the rest of the series.
The sex:
Listen, because of how clumsy Verity is, I expected nothing less than a sex scene that's initiated by her basically falling on top of Magnus, and Vivienne absolutely delivered. Plus, I'm a sucker for a study scene. By the time they have sex, their feelings for each other have settled even if they're unwilling to admit it, so the sex itself is very tender with a dash of desperation.
Also, shoutout to Lady Hartley for providing a comprehensive sex education to her daughters, complete with sock puppets.
Overall:
This is a great historical romance for anyone looking for a light read that's sure to make you laugh, and also has solid sex scenes. I adored the easy (if unwilling at first) affection that grew between Magnus and Verity, as well as their banter, and I look forward to the following books in this series!
Thank you to Avon and Harper Voyager and NetGalley for an advanced copy of this book in exchange for my review.
#arc#arc review#netgalley#vivienne lorret#historical romance#avon books#avon#Harper Voyager#romance novel#romance novels
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Scrooge: A Christmas Carol: How to do “child friendly” RIGHT
Hello, fans. I know we’re two months long overdue, but because of what has been going on in my life, I finally got around to watching Netlfix’s take on a beloved Christmas classic with a good feeling after seeing Netflix’s Pinocchio which was a masterpiece and keeping in mind that not too long ago, Netflix made another Christmas movie that the world fell in love with being Klaus. And you know what? I was absolutely NOT disappointed. In fact, I was very pleased and impressed. I will be the first to admit Scrooge: A Christmas Carol (which I will simply call Scrooge throughout this review) is not the most sophisticated adaptation of the book, but out of all the animated versions, this is the best and so far, the only adaptation that is child friendly the right way since Disney’s Mickey’s Christmas Carol. Just to give you an idea of how well done it was: I am an adult and I loved it. I’ll even go that extra mile by saying this film is criminally misjudged, underrated and was treated rather biasedly.
Be warned that there are spoilers ahead.
Number one, the animation style is CGI yet cartoony. Visually, out of all the animated adaptations of A Christmas Carol, Scrooge is the most beautiful visually and has the best animation. You can tell that a lot of love was put into art because each character is emotive, unique, alive and entertaining while the animation is as smooth as silk with perfect textures. Unlike most CGI that tries to be realistic and in doing so, winds up looking creepy, unnatural and ugly, Scrooge embraces that it is all fantasy lovingly, so the characters are designed to be whimsical which is absolutely perfect for the fantastical elements like the magical sequences, the three spirits and the ghost of Jacob Marley. Because of this, they stay with you.
Number two, the music is catchy and lively. I know that a lot of people deem the music as not being good, but I have to say it, folks, I couldn’t not disagree more. I think the music is absolutely wonderful and the performances feel like something out of Broadway. Just the opening number “I love Christmas” immediately draws you in and already gives you an idea of what kind film you’re going to be watching: it’s a film people made for fun and you’re having fun with them. Plus, the songs themselves are memorable and you will find yourself listening to them again and again. I mean, I can’t get over how sad yet beautiful “Later Never Comes” is and I even find myself rewatching this movie just to listen to the music. Now I know a lot of people out there do not have the same opinion as I do, but here is a case where I have to come to the film’s defense simply because you cannot fault it for being a musical since that’s what it is. Nobody complained when the Muppet Christmas Carol had people singing at random times. Heck, even things, animals and food would sing. I think it’s pretty unfair to say characters singing is out of place because no one does it real life when that is the point of the musical genre.
Number three, the characters are nuanced. While I cannot say these characters are an extreme departure from their original versions, I can definitely say that they are more multi-dimensional than most versions I have seen. Right off of the bat, we get a hint that Ebenezer is not just some old grumpy miser nor is he completely without heart considering he has a pet dog he takes good care of and a watch that is hinted to have emotional meaning. He does have a heart, but he hides it kind of like the Beast did in Disney’s Beauty and the Beast. Even his introduction song “Tell Me” is actually (and ironically) telling the audience that he is not happy and has his reasons for being so bitter. In most versions, he is just a big callous bully and his heart often feels like it was pulled out of nowhere. Instead, we catch glimpses of the old grump having one and we’re learning why he just puts up defenses in the form of cruelty. And it’s not just Ebenezer. His nephew Fred is nuanced too. For once, he is refreshingly shown to be much more aware of his actions rather than just being a cheery buffoon for the sake of contrasting his uncle. Fred is cheerful, kind and hopeful because he actively wants to be the best version of himself to honour his late mother, his uncle’s dear sister, and his uncle is all he has left on her side of the family, so he constantly reaches out to him. I also appreciate that unlike most versions, he doesn’t mock his uncle Ebenezer. He toasts him and even stood up for him which shows that he is also much more mature than he lets on.
Number four, the pacing is just right. A common problem I find in most adaptations of A Christmas Carol is that it tends to be too short or drag on for too long. I recall one version that was so long that is was actually a mini-series not a movie though in its defense, it was the exception. Anyway, Scrooge doesn’t feel like a drag or like it came and went at all. It has good pacing that will keep the attention of children and keep the adults entertained. It uses every single second that is necessary to tell a good story and get the main message across. Plus, it tells us several other ones that are food for thought like making use of your time and not taking your negative experiences for granted.
Number five, it respects the intelligence of the audience. You can tell that this film is meant to be enjoyed by children, but it doesn’t hold their hands nor does it shy away from being able to be serious. It doesn’t just play with the children. It educates them by having themes of death, sickness, regret, egoism and how severely our actions can impact those around us. I can tell you this now as a parent that I really happy to see kid’s medias like this make a comeback. The film is a lesson in how greed and callousness can literally kill. I mean, Ebenezer openly accepts that he has been a jerk who is not worthy of mercy, but asks to be spared because in doing so, Tim Cratchit who does deserve mercy gets spared too. THAT is what I find missing in a lot adaptations of Charles Dickens’ famous tale. Yes, Christmas should be appreciated, but the real point of the story is to see how destructive greed and ego can be. In other words, you could teach the same lesson using any holiday or special day which focuses on generosity and kindness. And when I say that out loud, it would be kind of fun if someone adapted A Christmas Carol with a twist where the holiday was not Christmas for a change yet still captured the same deep message, but I digress. The point is that Ebenezer does indeed stay true to honouring Christmas in his heart, but more importantly, he finally gets that he has been egotistical and cruel.
I give this movie an 9/10. It’s not perfect, but it sure is close to it as far as kid-friendly versions go. If you haven’t seen it, I suggest watching it. And if you have yet don’t think much of it, watch it again and this time, please take a really good look at it because I think you may have misjudged it. I know I have made that mistake too and it took taking a second look to see how wrong I was about something.
Have a great night, everyone. And stay safe.
#christmas#a christmas carol#charles dickens#christmas spirit#adaptation#retelling#book#novel#movie#netflix#netflix scrooge#ebenezer scrooge#christmas past#christmas present#christmas future#jacob marley#bob cratchit#tiny tim
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giving the new hellraiser an extra half star on letterboxd just to spite the people who’re being really grumpy about it, because most of the time people are either
a. overly comparing it to the original in a way that doesn’t actually address the lore-building in this movie on its own merits (just “oh the Cenobites don’t look the same as they used to,” “oh this wasn’t how it was in the original,” etc)
b. calling the main character “annoying” which immediately makes me lose interest in a review about a movie with an interesting female protagonist
also some other feelings about it (with heavy spoilers), many of which are sentiments I didn’t see explored on letterboxd (although I didn’t go too far because I’d have just been annoyed):
Horror definitely is too glossy these days as a whole, I will agree with that, and Hellraiser especially is something that could benefit from more grit and sweat and tactile sex, however this one DID give us some wonderful things:
- The conceptual Drag Looks, really fascinating elevated aesthetics (Cenobite Aesthetes - arbiters of Taste - that sounds about right for them). My watch-partner and I loved every Cenobite, they really went off with the designs, and with pushing the genderlessness of them. I wish there were more body-types though, they ought to be past the idea that thinness = elevation, especially since a bunch of them barely look human at all! (I’m going to assume that they’re also around, since there was a fat Cenobite in the original, but wish the movie itself had thought of doing that)
I like the meta-choice of casting Jamie Clayton as well. Since she was playing the lead-priest, there was a sense of worship being placed on her body-as-a-trans-body as well as having achieved the ultimate form of beauty and transformation (in the case of the movie “their body”, since the Cenobites are genderless)
I loved how fundamentally Alien they were once more, fully operating under their own, clear (to them) rules. And I liked that by the end the main character figured out how to play by those rules too.
- Obviously will always think the BDSM/kink "pleasure and pain" element of them ought to be more of a focal point than it's ever been since the first movie, but I was pretty into this idea of being given a gift and it being filtered through this inherently alien worldview (not evil, just alien). The box was always a gift after all.
The gore was fully Happening, a lot of it based in flaying, which is especially yeurgh to me, but like yay for the gore! (even though I was watching with my hands over my eyes). Speaking of “not enough sexy” there was time dedicated and focus and... practically tenderness? to a lot of those scenes that definitely made them feel like BDSM play!
Head-Cenobite genuinely thought the lead was kind of sexy for choosing a lifetime of bitterness and regret, was like "damn that's kinkier than I've ever been."
- Also opens up some interesting questions (that would need a TV series to go into with more depth) about the nature of sensation, power-dynamics, worship, pleasure and pain, and of course about grief. Her brother was dead from almost the beginning and it was her fault, and throughout it all she's spiralling into this desperate attempt to save him somehow despite it all, and she could have ended up taking the Cenobites gift, despite knowing it's poison -- she's a very coherent character who makes a lot of smart decisions, while staving off the reality that her relapsing led to her brother's death, it's a neat arc.
It’s got a lot of questions in it, and a lot of lore to play with
- My one real nitpick (apart from the need for more sexiness of the Actual Sex variety) is that Trevor's motives were too shallow to fully allow his betrayal to feel real. I called him from the start, but kept expecting more of an explanation. The idea that he's willingly engaging in this extreme violence "just" for money, only for him to turn around and seem kind of apologetic was a bit weak. Should've let him go full-bastard OR full-bastard-but-I-love-you-babe-despite-not-planning-to, not this kind of halfway "eh, this maybe went a bit far, but I'll stand by and let it happen I guess?" like... my guy. These people are gonna be doomed to eternal torment and it seems like you knew that. At what point was it too far for you?
Overall this concept: what is life, but one big sensation? savour it all, even (especially) the pain.
My favourite since the original for sure
#hellraiser#hellraiser 2022#the monstrous feminine continues!#im watching movies#also: i downloaded it as 720p rather than the full 1080#and i actually tihnk it may have done it some good because ours was definitely grittier in texture which works for the story
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