tma post-MAG 200 time travel au! Part 2

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post MAG-200 tma time travel au series

I absolutely love your takes on stancy/jancy . It would all be so much better if the show would acknowledge Nancy's fault in the stancy breakup and how it affects her current one. Because Jonathan was kinda aware they were cheating, he was the one who brought up Steve twice (and she never told them they broke up (bc they didn't lol)), right before he slept with Nancy. He would totally be scared of her cheating again, given how easily she moved on from a one year relationship. I mean, it was kinda implied he was worried about Steve being there at the end on vol2. But idk if the show will carry it into s5. I literally don't see the Duffers letting Nancy admit to her faults in her relationship with Steve. That's why if stancy happens, it will be not very great, like the payoff won't be there. Steve grew, Nancy didn't, and so it's once again more one-sided, and tbh those two deserve better. Steve deserves someone who is fully committed to him, and Nancy deserves to grow as a person before getting into a relationship (if jancy does break up). I would love to see jancy struggling with all the tension that is there from the beginning. Like the way they got together, the fights about finances, the misunderstandings about problems, the college question plus on top of Jonathan feeling insecure about Steve being around. Like how does this saying go you lose them how you get them. And Nancy was totally projecting on being scared that Jonathan would cheat or find a new person because that's what she did in the past. I agree that her flirting with Steve is like a precaution because she doesn't want to be alone. Again, she deserves to be alone to learn to be okay with it.

I know kinda different topic, but it's kinda weird how many bler people love to make jancy the blueprint for their ship. Like do you seriously want Mike to emotionally cheat on El? Do you want your ship to become canon on the basis of cheating and ruining the relationship between Mike and El, and Will and El? Like jancy isn't this cute ship that has a wholesome start like if you think about it, their treatment of Steve was kinda cruel. He never got closure from Nancy and then was alone, do they want the same for El? Because the amount of takes about Mike never loving El, despite it being there in the show actually breaks my heart for El because can you imagine how cruel that is?

thanks hahah, yeah i totally agree. and yes on the road and then at Murray's Jonathan is the one to bring up Steve, clearly aware of his relationship with Nancy, because he doesn't go "steve. but they just broke up" and neither does Nancy.She just says that yes, she likes steve, and then sorta tries to defend herself against Murray saying she doesn't love him. He brings up Steve in the motel when Nancy asks what happened, why he disappeared after everything, and he says his family needed him...and also steve. Which is when Nancy tells him she waited. I...don't know how this can be interpreted as anything but Nancy going back to Steve because she got impatient for Jonathan to make a move, while still holding feelings for Jonathan.

(sorry there's a lot going on in this ask and I'm adding a readmore. it got kinda long hehe i love talking.)

Their relationship starting this way, with Jon at least subconsciously aware that Nancy had proceeded to have an eleven month long relationship with Steve while she still had feelings for him, only to jump in with him as soon as he actually did make a move, would likely stick with him, and lead to insecurities and mistrust. Because he isn't in Hawkins, he isn't around her all the time, so how does he know she isn't falling in love with someone else but staying with him because that guy won't make a move? or how does he know the guy hasn't made a move, and Nancy is avoiding talking to Jonathan because of that? It's not like she really took initiative in breaking up with Steve at the Byers' house. That's such an interesting thing to compound their communication issues!! Makes them messy and juicy alongside their financial differences and sexism and misunderstandings. Jonathan's tendency to be a bit of a doormat for people he cares about, and Nancy's way of kinda...avoiding saying sorry.

Jonathan's jokey line about "who would be in charge if Nancy weren't there...steve?" In my opinion does two things. One establishes that Nancy and Jonathan make fun of Steve behind his back, (which I'll say is normal to do for exes, but maybe a bit unkind about a guy who's saved their lives multiple times?) and two it also shows a hint of insecurity for Jonathan, especially with how he reacts to Nancy saying Steve's grown up. That's fascinating. That's a much more interesting way to have conflict in a relationship that isn't "he won't tell her he doesn't want to go to the same school :(" but you're right it's doubtful the show will carry it over because. I mean. It hasn't carried over any other relationship strife for the older teens before.

yeah. If they don't let them have actual problems in their relationships, or acknowledge the problems in the relationships, than whatever ship will fall flat (and boring!). I agree that it is much better for Steve and Nancy (and Jonathan) to end the series single. Jon will need time with his family to work through everything that's happened and to heal, and Nancy clearly prefers when she is a romantic partner's first priority. I'd love to see more of jonathan with an actual friend (argyle) and outside his family/romantic partner's life. He deserves to branch out too, while also still valuing and caring and supporting his family. Steve has shown a lot of growth, and him ending single going off to the city with Robin to live their best queer lives would be delightful to see with him no longer focusing so much on romance as he is on building and maintaining the bonds he's created during all that growing he's done.

Nancy needs time to find herself outside of a romantic relationship, which she has been in non-stop one way or another since s1, and it really doesn't seem to ever help her change or grow. While one can argue Jonathan complimented her as a partner more, they haven't been good for each other since mid s3 and we haven't seen them actually resolve their arguments or problems, the Upside Down has gotten in the way. Same for Steve and Nancy, the problems they had haven't been worked out, so them getting back together would feel hollow and unsatisfying. I doubt they'd actually touch on them, but even if they did I don't really think there's time to work through the end of a relationship and the start of a new one (for stancy) or just resolve most of the issues to have solid equal partnership (for jancy) given they aren't mains and that there's an apocalypses they'll be trying to stop, and every other character with stuff going on.

askhjdfkjahsdf yeah I really do think some of the more extreme parts of blr fandom are just. so mean to El for no reason other than she's in the way of their ship being canon. a lot of stuff saying that mike has always been in love with will, or that El doesn't actually love Mike (romantically, but then like. even so she's still close and cares about him and he's been hurting her feelings!), and to try to compare it to the start of Jancy is also not it because unlike Steve and Jonathan, Will and El and incredibly close. It's one thing to help some guy you don't like's girlfriend (who you're in love with) cheat on him. It's another to help your sister's boyfriend cheat on her. (or get together with him VERY shortly after the breakup that it's pretty clear there was emotional cheating happening) Both are shitty but one emotionally devastates and betrays in a way that's just. so cruel? To El??

And some act like Mike doesn't love her, when he does! even if people think they were young and got deep platonic feelings mixed up with romantic ones, they love each other. That's basically Mike's main character trait is that he loves his friends so so so much he loves them enough to believe in an alternate dimension and to jump off a cliff and to radio every day for nearly a year. Mike and El love each other, and while it's messy, and complicated in s4, saying they don't love or care about each other, and that the other would not be a considered in decisions they make, is just. Well it isn't what I saw. Whether or not that love is romantic does not actually matter in the fact that the love is there and it is deep and it is also a messy thing for them!

To start the blr relationship similarly to Nancy and Jonathan would destroy whatever connections Mike and Will have to El, (at least if they told her, which for jancy is questionable tbh) and to me that's 1) not in any of their characters 2) extremely cruel and hurtful and not the way I would want my ship to go canon and 3) to claim other wise is falling into the trap that romo relationships take precedence over platonic or familial ones. As though Will would jeopardize his relationship with El?

GOD I'll never get over the bullet scene in 125 Lydia Nicholas's performance in it is some of the most bone chilling shit in this show. Like. The build up is already so tense, like there's black comedy w/ Jon and Basira's banter in the run up but it is still so suspenseful and when it actually hits and Melanie's screaming it. Honestly quickly turns from being scary to. Painful! It moves so quickly from Melanie screaming "I'll kill you!" to her screaming "I can't feel my leg!" And "get away from me!" It's. Honestly so much more gut wrenching than I remember christ. I need to lie down

(this is long, sorry, I just don't have anyone else to rant to abt this lmao)

Ok I wanna start off by saying I'm white, so when discussing the portrayal of Jon as a POC I may make mistakes, and I'm sorry for if/when I do; please correct me. BUT I have been thinking a LOT about this lately and I gotta get it off my chest

A lot of the whole "portraying the TMA characters as queer POC" thing reminds me of that article/thread about how diversifying the cast isn't the same as actual diversity.

Black people's experiences, NB POC, and queer people's experiences are going to have notable differences from those of cishet white people. So writing a character as a cis or white or straight person and then just...making them a poc/queer person doesn't always work. Especially with things like TMA, because the whole point of the podcast is that it's based in enough reality that it could be portrayed as "real" or "possible"; the characters are portrayed as if they are real people, even sharing names with the actors who play them.

A white actor's experience is not going to portray all the same things as a black person's....a cis person's experience is not going to portray the same things as a trans person's. If a trans poc wants to headcanon Jon as a trans poc and it brings them happiness, that's fine!

But so often I see non-trans, non-queer, and/or non-poc portraying him as a black trans man without any real regard for what that means outside of "I drew a white guy but made his skin dark and gave him aesthetically pleasing top surgery scars".

Idk man. A while ago I was in a different fandom where for some reason abled people wanted to portray a notable character as physically disabled/ as a cane and wheelchair user. On the surface there was nothing wrong with it and you could have even called it "diversity", but as a physically disabled person who has used both a cane and a wheelchair, it really rubbed me the wrong way; I didn't feel represented and if anything it made me feel even more alienated from the fandom. I'm getting similar vibes from a lot of these cis and/or white ppl who headcanon the TMA characters as trans people and as POC. It's like you and others have said, it feels more fetishy than inclusive.

No need to apologize!

And YES. YES. "diversifying the cast isn't the same as actual diversity." This EXACTLY. This is how we get stuff like Hamilton and Shera other pieces of media, where Black and brown people are added onto stories to create an outward appearance of diversity, but the story itself is still deeply a white one, and in some cases the addition of POC in these stories actually obfuscates the existing racial dynamics!! (also looking at you moby dick musical). I feel like a bunch of white creators saw "we need diverse stories" and took that as their prerogative to start just unthinkingly adding POC to their narratives, when the call for diverse stories was never about them in the first place, but about POC being able to tell our OWN stories. A ~diverse~ cast means nothing if your writers' room is majority white, and means nothing if your story does nothing to meaningfully engage with the diversity it's using for its aesthetic.

With stuff like TMA, where a lot of the MCs are written as aracial (re: white), this is how you get like. Typical fanon-accepted versions of characters of color (as well as fanon-accepted versions for who doesn't get to be a POC: see martin almost universally being portrayed as a white man) on a surface level without anyone actually bothering to dissect what that would mean for the story. TMA already so deeply deals with privilege, capitalism, agency, and power, all of which are themes that inherently change if you make the protagonist a man of color.

If Jon is brown or Black then suddenly his interactions with the police and the fact that he is a victim of police brutality become very different. If Jon is a MOC then the abuse he faces at the hands of Elias, his wealthy white boss -- the abuse and manipulation that really is in many ways the driving force of the plot -- becomes very different. If Jon is a MOC then his bitter acceptance of his privileged and oppressive role in the apocalypse is VERY very different!! S5 especially is a narrative about privilege and power and what we do with it; Jon being a MOC in that narrative changes the entire character of the final season just as Jon being a white man in that narrative would drastically change the reception of it. How much would white ppl be willing to engage with this story if they viewed Jon as white -- as a white man choosing who to let suffer and who to let Gain power, as a white person claiming that he can be the arbiter of "fair" judgment on who deserves to live and who deserves to suffer and die? Would white ppl be able to actually engage with that, that dissection of whiteness? I really don't think so. I think Jon being a MOC enables a lot of white fans to distance themselves from the problems TMA -- in many cases successfully and many cases not so much -- tries to raise. I think white ppl making Jon a MOC often feel it exempts them from examining their own racial biases, both towards Jon and other characters, but also the very privileged biases that TMA itself addresses (and in some cases, the racial problems that TMA actually contains)

All this to say, headcanons do not exist in a vacuum. Projecting onto characters is all fine and good (hell knows that's literally how I write Jon -- projecting all my mishmashed identities onto him) -- but some careful thought into how we are portraying characters beyond "this is the typical fandom interpretation of him" or "I like how this looks" is...really necessary imo, especially when it comes to identities that you're not yourself a part of (this is general "you," not directed at u the asker specifically). There comes a point where your headcanon either is detracting from the text itself or complicating/changing it in a way that needs to be addressed; otherwise you're likely to end up lookin like a Fool TM /lh

Would you mind to elaborate on why you think ep. 161 & 162 had "the perfect jonmartin dynamic"? I'm curious.

Warning for season 5 negativity ahead, particularly re: Jon and Martin's relationship. Stop here if you don't want to read about it!!

Okay to start, I have a lot of issues with the writing of Jon and Martin's relationship in season 5. This isn't because I expect a picture-perfect relationship or have any interest in villainizing any characters; there were just so many moments of "??? what the fuck why would you say that," on top of major unresolved flaws that were never treated as flaws. For instance: Martin asking Jon if killing him would have helped anything in 167, Martin telling Jon--a burn scar victim--how gross he finds burn scars in 169, Martin barely blinking at Basira telling Jon she should have let Daisy kill him in 177, "God forbid the creepy ever stops" in 191, the running joke of how impatient he was when Jon needed to stop and make a statement when that need was a direct result of Jon's trauma and a bodily change forced on him...

And then the entire smiting arc, which went absolutely nowhere, but involved Martin barreling past Jon's discomfort with killing in 166, getting angry at him for refusing to kill someone for the sake of his own jealousy in 168, getting angry at him AGAIN for refusing to kill in 174...only to throw the absolutely baffling line of "I’ve been out there with you. I saw the kick you got out of making them scream for once. You weren't supposed to enjoy it that much!" at Jon in TMA 194.

The bickering and impatience is so constant that I've seen fans insist that, well, there's a lot of time we don't hear, maybe they're not bickering then? But I'm looking at it from a writing and storytelling perspective, and I put the blame on the writing more than on any particular character. In the behind-the-scenes, the creators talked about how writing those conversations was the easy part that they could just wing and not bother editing, so they could focus their energy on the soundscaping and tech side. A lot of what I listed above was explicitly meant to be comic relief without a thought to how uncomfortable it is in the context of a relationship. And as someone who's listened to a lot of RQ content, it was a bit telling when I could straight-up recognize Alex's sense of humor or even snippets of things he'd said about Jon in the past coming out of Martin's mouth.

So back to 161 and 162!

I see a lot of people insist that the issues with Jon and Martin's relationship in season 5 are "it's because it's a new relationship" or "it's because both are so traumatized, what do you expect!" However, none of the stuff listed above are connected to being new or traumatized! Martin KNOWS Jon struggles with his humanity; even if Martin is traumatized, why would he call Jon creepy to his face? Since when does Martin prioritize his own boredom over Jon's suffering? HOW can Martin just shrug off anyone saying they should have let Jon be murdered? How could ANYONE knowing the extreme of Jon's self-hatred propose the "if you had died, would it make things better" hypothetical?

In contrast, 161-162 (along with the s5 trailer) hits a perfect balance of convincing, genuine care and love, while still having conflict directly connected to the strain and trauma of their situation and new relationship. We see Jon in a horrible low, and are allowed to feel his pain without it being played as funny or inconvenient. Martin is sympathetic but doesn't know what to do with it. He makes jabs hinting at his impatience--"I'm good at waiting"--but doesn't act as if Jon's just being miserable on purpose to inconvenience him. There's also more balance in the conflict: Jon snaps at Martin about how "not everyone can just cut themselves off from their feelings," exposing old hurts about Martin's distance in s4, but immediately apologizes. We see an imperfect couple being imperfect people, not wanting to hurt each other but sometimes stumbling into it. We also see the way they do hurt each other being framed as such, rather than treated as a joke. We even see the awkwardness of the new relationship with Jon's fumbling knock knock joke.

It also just has SO many good moments between them. Jon's fiercely protective "I won't let it," Martin's eager preparations for their quest and Jon's warm fondness over it, "It's quiet, here, and I have you." Those are all on the level of "let me know if you see any good cows," to me, and mean twice as much given the darkness of the situation.

(I am also convinced that without the pandemic difficulties, the writing quality of 161 and 162 would have continued: they wouldn’t have had to “wing” Jon and Martin’s conversations, other characters could have been involved to suggest the “should we have killed Jon?” hypotheticals, etc.)

P.S. If I see anyone vaguing about "people demanding perfection from queer ships" or "you just don't know how real relationships work" or "omg I can't believe people are calling Martin abusive" I will pour glue in their shoes and glitter in their sock drawer.

Absolutely LOVE your tags on the post about Jon as the Pupil!!! It all comes down to the "When does the Eye make me monstrous?" conversation!! Helen was right, for once!! It doesn't need to!!! People succumb when they succumb for whatever reason, but we've seen so many examples of people rejecting the Entities through their own power! Jon acknowledging that the Eye showing him the horrors of the apocalypse feels good but still being repulsed by it in the s5 trailer! In comparison to, say, Daisy gleefully taking what the Hunt could give her! Adjskjf I'm running out of steam and can't remember where I wanted to go with this but basically YEAH

(Post in question) 

#something about how this has always been jon good or bad#it's been his decisions good or bad#kinda confirms to me that it was almost never about how much if him is the Eye and how much of him is him#He is influenced by the Eye but it can never take him over#tma spoilers#mag200#mag 200#tma#the magnus#the agency and the question of it is so strong in this series bc there's the question of consent to the Eye and its machimations but still#being able to make decisions even when everything is against you so you have a choice but that choice is difficult its awful#idk im rambling but I adore how there is no ability to be lost to the Fears unless you give yourself up people ARE the fears#or at least they let themselves become those Fears for their own benefit (My tags) 

Yeah!!! 

What is interesting about TMA is that the entire series is about agency and the question if it’s even a thing. Because in some cases, no it’s all about luck! It’s the luck in being the victim of the day, being chosen without your consent, making decisions without knowing what the context is. But on the flipside, it’s all about the importance of decisions, of choice. We talk about Jonmartin and their entire relationship being one huge choice right until the very end, but you could also talk about the choice to go against the world. Going against the Powers, choosing to care about existing in the face of nonexistence, and so on. 

I think about the one statement, Book of the Dead. The person knew they were going to die but instead of giving into despair, in their last moments, they took the book and decided to make sure no one could be hurt by it again. 

I think of Tim who lost everything, who knew killing Nikola wouldn’t do anything, but got chose to destroy Nikola because he wanted personal satisfaction of destroying the monster that ruined his life again and again. 

For Jon, the final episode was all about decisions. Not letting the others get their choose in how to deal with the fears. Making sure he has his agency from the Eye and make sure the Fears starve. Losing that choice when Martin guaranteed that their original plan would work. Choosing to stay with Martin and let go to another world because he loves him.

It’s a series of choices that you make that you have to live with yourself. Sometimes you don’t have a choice, sometimes you make the best of bad choices. Sometimes you choose to live while other times you choose to trust. You don’t always have control, but you do what you can anyway. What else can you do if you want to do good but live in a world that actively rewards those who do harm? 

I saw ur post abt someone claiming show Sansa stole Theon's arc. Did that person watch a different show? Bcs how was OP disrespectful to Theon in any manner? OP was literally mocking Sansa in show & in books, by subtly telling us how book Sansa is so unimportant that d&d had to combine multiple characters to make her a main player.

And if Sansa being given Jeyne's arc was disrespectful to anyone then it was to Sansa herself. I like show theon but in books he is much worse. ( I dont know if you like his character in books but for personal reasons I can never like or support even a fictional character who has committed any sexual assault, doesn't matter how much the character 'changes' later in the story) book theon raped Kyra & said seriously gross things abt Sansa when she is still a child. Theon was majorly whitewashed in the show. And unlike Sansa, he has always been a secondary character in both mediums. But to further a secondary character's arc in the show, D&D gave Sansa Stark, one of the main POV and also one of the future ruler in the end, a rape storyline which doesn't exist in the source material for her.

What's even worse is D&D waited for Sophie to become adult to film THAT scene, told her she was getting a romantic lead when it was actually Ramsay. Even during THAT scene the focus of the camera was on Theon's face, bcs ofcourse it is very important to focus on man pain when women is assaulted. How else will ppl feel sry for women unless we can see how much it affects a man. D&D could have easily left THAT scene to imagination rather showing how theon was traumatized by it but who cares abt Sansa anyways, right? Even her trauma is not her own, we must be reminded how it was traumatic for other character too. Show tookaway Sansa's agency, her political arc and wrote that Ramsay storyline all for Theon. ( I dont mind that Jeyne was not in the show bcs she has one of the saddest stories in books but now I can at least imagine that in show verse she is safe. But D&d could have easily written Sansa & Theon escaping Ramsay bfr her wedding if they had even one functioning brain cell left) And that person is saying Sansa stole Theon's arc & it was disrespectful to him? And made him a tertiary character? Wtf?

I dont care if ppl dont like show Sansa. I am used to it by now. Sansans have hated her since s5 bcs Hound didnt get to be with her first I guess, they still make rape jokes abt her & even hate Sophie for god knows what reason. Arya stans have hated her bcs she reunited with Jon first, found new set of fans who really defend her & love her. Dany stans have hated her since s8 bcs she didnt become servant to their favorite & got the ending which they wanted for Dany. So the new set of 'we love Arya, Dany and *what's her name? ohh yeah* book!Sansa equally' stans dont bother me.

But they really need to shut up abt show sansa at this point rather than insulting her fans & finding new things to accuse her for, like stealing any random character's storyline without proof. First Arya then Barbery & now Theon. What's next? Blood raven? Fat Walda? Patchface? Night's king? Drogon?

And dont they love book Sansa so so so so so much? Even more than us, apparently. So shouldn't they focus on creating some content for her or like you mentioned in your other post write metas abt what will she do in vale for eternity? Or are they waiting for twow / ados to drop so to show how much they actually 'love' book Sansa?

I'm starting to think that person thinks Theon is the one who'll beat Ramsay and execute him. While that's something I'd love to see, the Boltons have been positioned as Stark enemies going back millenia. Sansa beating Ramsay with Jon and the Knights of the Vale is more likely than Theon rallying the North against Ramsay.

oddly specific memories i have of listening to tma

in honor of the finale, and because i am a sentimental asshole, i bring you this potentially uninteresting and completely pointless list. i'm gonna miss this show a lot

half my original reasoning for listening to the podcast was to motivate me to walk on the treadmill. this did not work. but i did it the first time, when i was going through the trailers and anglerfish, and i remember the room where my dad keeps the treadmill is really dark and the spooky chanting sort of freaked me out

after the treadmill, i ended up listening to the bulk of the first four episodes on the couch, and halfway through i let my oldest cat, winnie, who always lived outside (i know, i was very against actually keeping her outside) in the house. and she jumped up on the couch with me, which she literally never did. (she was very grumpy and not super affectionate.) i had that cat since i was five, and she passed last june, and i really miss her. quarantine kind of gave us the opportunity to hang out with her a lot, because we were home so much. so i'm glad these memories are kind of intersected in my mind. (below: a pic i have from that day.)

my friend sarah relistened along with me the first time around, which was extraordinarily sweet of her, and also led to some interesting interactions. for example: she forgot when it was revealed that sasha was dead, so she accidentally spoiled that for me when i asked when the others would find sasha (and i spent all of season 2 just like. anxiously vibrating over this fact). she also made this post, when i was still in like early first half of season 1, and my immediate thought was "oh no martin is dead." i hadnt even MET martin at this point

back in early quarantine, my mom had this rule that we had to do something new every day (to keep away the depression... ha ha). anyways, all i wanted to do in my free time was sit around and listen to tma (and also watch this show i was into on netflix), so i came up with some lame excuses, one of which was "i'll give myself a pedicure." this led to the memory i ultimately associate with mag 56 (trevor herbert 2) being me sitting out on our roof balcony thing, giving myself a horrendous pedicure

another time, my family wanted to go play tennis, and they brought me along and brought a hammock for me to lay in. there was this excess material from the hammock, and the sun was in my eyes, so i ended up pulling it up and over me to block the sun and creating this ridiculous hammock cocoon thing. one of the episodes i listened to that day? "tucked in."

before i ever started the show, my friend sarah stayed with me while i was pet sitting. i remember when she got there, she'd just listened to 150 and was telling me how freaky it was (she was still trying to get me into the show), and she was like "of course we're staying on a CUL DE SAC." (that was also the weekend she watched us for the first time and was very upset because i slept through the whole thing, which is scary when you're staying somewhere by yourselves.) anyways, i spent the whole show waiting for the scary cul de sac episode

while i was listening to the show for the first time, my step-dad (an artist) started painting an EYE on the door downstairs near my bathroom. a fucking EYE. he didn't finish it til i had finished the show. but still weird!!

i binged like 12 episodes in one day to finish season 4, which is not impressive at all, but it's still my personal record. i just remember staying up late in my dark bedroom (til like.... 11 i'm lame and i go to bed early), listening to like 158 & 159 & 160 and just being knocked on my ass by how good it all was... i was SUPER spoiled by this point, through my own fault, and i knew exactly what was coming, but actually experiencing it was nuts

the second week i listened live was 167, where the public release was delayed by a couple hours by accident. i spent like 20 minutes refreshing spotify, thinking it was broken, before going on tumblr and seeing what the deal was. (and 167 remains one of my favorites of s5 because i remember just going "thank god it was worth the wait.")

this one car ride where sarah and i made some of our friends listen to the first three episodes of the show. it was the middle of the night and we were just like blasting down i40 listening to anglerfish and do not open etc

the night the what the ghost episode publicly dropped was the night after my graduation, and i was sleeping out on the couch in the living room so my grandfather could sleep in a bed. it was super dark, and i am a jumpy person, and i Remember being mildly disgusted with myself because the corny sound effects were actually freaking me out. (i think i mightve actually seen something weird that night, maybe, but that's another story.)

the weekend my parents moved me into college, we couldn't get the cable in the house we were staying in, and we were all sitting around doing nothing, so i jokingly suggested starting tma with them, and they were like ok grace. my step-dad promptly fell asleep and my mom zoned out -- which is probably good, she doesn't like horror and she's super claustrophobic, so it's probably better we never got to do not open

my brief roommate in college talked about how she was into those youtube channels where people just read scary stories, so of course i was like try tma out. so she listened to the first episode on her own, and we were out one night, and she started mag 02 while i went into an ice cream place. she was into it (she kept being like open it, ya pussy) and wanted to keep listening while we went home, and even back in our room. i had only been in town for a couple weeks, and barely knew my way around, but i also didn't want to turn the gps on and be interrupted every five seconds. so i tried to find our way back on my own. it took the entirety of mag 03, and into mag 04, before i did it. so now i will forever associate across the street with all those wrong turns i took in a dark, semi unfamiliar city, trying to get back to our college without a gps

the day of the early drop for 179 was the day i moved back home from college -- a five hour drive by myself. i ended up listening to it on the final stretch of the trip, when i was super tired and it was dark and i knew it'd probably be a crazy episode. just me full blasting down i40, drinking an energy drink (which i never do) through a hole punched in the top, listening to daisy's death

186 early dropped the day after initial u.s. election day (when we still didn't know anything). my mom had set up a "watch party" in the living room with these giant air mattresses, and we all sort of spent the day crowded around the TV watching the numbers. not much of a memory, but i remember sitting on that air mattress and listening to martin's monologue in the midst of that messy week

i had a virtual therapy appointment on the day of 187's early drop, and my dad was home, so i drove to an empty parking lot to do the session in some privacy. i was trying to listen to the episode before the session started, so i ended up listening to the last half sitting in my car, in the pouring rain, just staring at my radio in shock (187 remains one of my favorite s5 episodes)

my friend sarah had just come home for winter break the day 189 dropped, and we decided to listen together, just like driving around in circles drinking coffee and listening and speculating on whether or not that was really martin

i started my relisten right after thanksgiving and was just kind of blowing through fast as i could through the whole of december. i had to go back to college to empty out my dorm, and i went to the beach after, and i ended up listening to mag 11 while just like walking around in circles in the tide pools. the closer it got to christmas, the more christmassy i wanted to keep things, so i would like. listen in the mornings and turn on one of those Netflix fireplaces and get all cozy

my other friend went with me on a mini bagel road trip in december, and he was still trying to get caught up, so we listened to mag 169, 170, and 171 on the drive home. (by this point, i was accustomed enough to s5 and smiting scenes to automatically reach for the volume controls when jude perry and jared hopworth died.)

when i relistened to mag 47, i was sitting with my cat beezus. i paused the episode to write this big long meta, so i was in a different headspace when i pressed play again. jon immediately yelled for sasha and i immediately jumped, and beezus gave me a searing glare and just got up and left

i relistened to piecemeal while i was cooking, which i thought was kind of funny and also disgusting

after christmas, i got into the habit of bringing my cat georgia into my room in the mornings, and she'd crawl under the covers with me while i listened to tma

one story i've always liked to tell from my first listen is how when i first listened to the meat arm grinder episode, my dad asked me to help him cook hamburgers later that day and explained how hamburgers are ground up (to my disgust). i hit meat grinder in my relisten and um. you'll never fucking guess what i made for lunch that day

so i had all these arbitrary rules for myself when i started tma last april, and i've broken like all of them. i started listening to tma while virtually working -- you just pull it up on your computer and it works. (i got the life scared out of me when one of my coworkers started talking over the podcast, wondering who it was that had walked into jon's office and why he wasn't reacting and why i didn't remember it.) i also started listening a lot while driving, which led to several long meta posts i wrote being typed up in a parking lot somewhere

i spent the entirety of 194 anxious-cuddling georgia. (i tried to do this for 198 and then didn't have any anxiety to cuddle her over.) i fully plan on doing this for 200, where i am sure i will need it again

my favorite place to listen to tma probably ended up being the roof room at my mom's, and unless something goes awry, this is where i will listen to the finale. (with georgia, of course.)

this list is super uninteresting, like i said, but here it is. i'm gonna miss this show a lot. i can't wait to return to it, later in life, and make all new listening memories in the process

Totally with you on a) the defintion of shipping and b) that it would not be narratively satisfying to have the show go in the Will and Mike get together direction, for all the reasons you listed.

The dialogue around it also makes it nearly impossible to find meta or even just discussions around Mike that don't centre the possibility of a romantic relations with Will and it's so frustrating. I love that little guy and I just want to talk about how much he loves his friends!

But then the first thing I created for this fandom was a byler breakup fic so... I'm probably not in the majority.

Anyway keep on trucking and I LOVE Robin and Steve's Epic Platonic Soulmate Mixtape <3

Ah thank you! Yeah. The series is grounded in the friendship the party has. That's the first thing we learn about them. It feels insulting to both the characters and anyone who likes the non romantic aspects of relationships when people insinuate that Will couldn't have a happy ending without dating Mike. (Mike doesn't owe Will a romantic relationship. Will doesn't owe Mike one!! It also feels insulting that people say there's going to be a time skip and I guess Will is still pining for him? Let him let go at that point Sheesh.).

The basis of any romantic relationship, especially in canon, between Will and Mike (or any party members) is a deep and strong friendship. Acting like those aren't as important is so rude to people and mischaracterizes them. Mike Wheeler loves his friends so much he would jump off a cliff for any of them. He would deny their death with the barest shred of illogical proof even when presented with a body. He would try to contact a girl for almost a year to see if she was still alive. He holds his friend's hand when it seems he's fading away, insists on going into danger to help with a distraction, and apologizes better to a friend than his girlfriend. He's a moody, angsty teenager, going through a lot of emotions and confusion, and can be an asshole even to his friends, but my god what are you doing if you deny Mike's platonic relationships mean everything to him.

It's also disregarding Will's relationships too! Like. El is his sister now!! You cannot separate that. Would Will want to date Mike even? Loving and wanting to date are different. Dating a sister's ex? Legit so many arguments are just saying El doesn't love Mike, and I guess implying she wouldn't give a shit if Mike stsrted dating a friend that became a brother who is also the only one as deeply connected to the Upside Down as her. It gives me the vibes of people like...taking away the agency El has in her own feelings and saying she loves Mike.

Maybe he just wants to be able to honest about his feelings. Get them off his chest. Keep his friendship with Mike but have everything out in the open, and they can work through that together. Strengthen their friendship and maybe be open to potentially dating in the future (there is an apocalypse on!) while also strengthening their friendship with El. So many people just. Ignore her and her feelings in all this, as though both Will and Mike have not showed they valued her feelings greatly. Why would that not factor in at all? Why would Will put his sister into that position? Would it not be awkward for Mike too?

That's why it wouldnt be satisfactorily executed in S5. The characters and the audience need time to process any breakup between El and Mike. Let them cool off and us register it. Another anon said if they were going blr canon route they should have ended mlvn in S4, and I agree. It needs Breathing room. Not just them breaking up and a two year time skip where we're told time has passed but for us it feels like nothing, so the impact isn't the same and it doesn't have the same satisfaction of knowing they've worked it out but just being told about it. If that makes sense?

Plus the series has struggled with ending romo relationships, and the only one starting that wasn't awkward or weird (Both Nancy and Jon AND Joyce and Hop have Murray be the catalyst which annoying and kinda lazy, not to mention the cheating) was Lucas and Max. That doesn't paint a picture of confidence in me. Sometimes a ship going canon is not actually good. Sometimes in fandom you are actually thankful a ship that honestly should have been canon by the end, or at least post-series didn't, because whatever the show runners would have done with it would have probably ruined whatever dynamic that made them compelling in the first place. it may feel like a betrayal or rip off at first, and would likely continue to, but with time comes a feeling of oh. Maybe it's better this way... Would come.

So yes. Seeing how people reacted to me simply saying that, by the end of the series, I don't think it could satisfyingly become canon, while prioritizing their relationships with each other, Not a lot of nuance is allowed, it seems. Though I'm sure many shippers are cool and chill, it's really just a few people who are loud about it that try to inhibit discussion or meta, it's a damn shame that the only discussion allowed to those shippers is when or how it will be canon. Where's the fun in that? Everyone can interact with fandom differently, and it's a shame some folks want to dictate how others do so.