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iamafanofcartoons · 1 year

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Why Ironwood’s actions made him a villain, and Team RWBY’s actions made them heroes.

Let’s go into some perspective about why Ironwood + his regime, and not Team RWBY, was the actual “worse than salem” group. And why Team RWBY are the heroes, and Ironwood and his regime the antagonists.

Let’s turn back the clock to before James threatened to nuke Mantle or blackmail Penny into helping him, and shot down planes that would carry people to safety.

“He genuinely offered all his resources to Team RWBY and co to maximize all the chances of them getting better and winning.” While squeezing Mantle dry.

Pre-V8 he still was authoritarian militarist, who locked down Atlas and Mantle, crippling its trade and defense capabilities of other regions, which led to a lot of people left to starve or die to Grimm, and he was also squeezing Mantle dry on top of it with a blatant disregard to its safety, and only giving it token "support", while his Huntsmen were more concerned with arresting people protecting Mantle, than helping them fight back Grimm.

Mantle was dying in volume 7, and it was all James’ fault, and critics were demanding that after Ironwood squeezed and bled Mantle dry, that Atlas abandon Mantle.

The writing is on the wall, but people are so focused on how he treated RWBY and co that they completely miss (ironically, unlike RWBY and co themselves, as it was their major concern) how he treats literally everyone else.

Of course he would treat them well, they are a very useful asset! Unlike people of Mantle, who could die in a ditch for all he cares.

That's not to say that he wants them dead, of course... he just doesn't care about them. He doesn't care about the people he's sworn to protect.

“ For Mantle, the entire point of the Huntsmen down there was to secure it and cover for the lack of resources. “

Lack of resources he himself created, funneling every drop of dust to his pet project.

James was always a borderline dictator. And he could pretty much brow-beat the Council to do what he needs, seeing how he held two seats out of five, and one was vacant.

“But James isn’t authoritarian!”

Authoritarian: Favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom.

“But Ironwood was trying to prevent invasion of Salem’s agents”

They infiltrated Atlas through Mantle, by means of using outdated security. With Watts even explicitly pointing out that Atlas got the shiny upgrades, but no one cared to get them to Mantle. And Cinder and Neo still got in. Ironwood failed spectacularly. As he always does.

People were losing their jobs and their living because of lockdown, and those who kept theirs, were working in harsh conditions. Grimm regularly invaded Mantle. People couldn't even get their children to schools without Huntsmen protecting them.

“Its for the greater good”

I just don't see any merit in humoring ideas that treat people as expendable pieces on the path to some lofty goal. "Some of you may die, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make" logic is the logic of villains.

“Ironwood employed Penny and the robots, that shows he cares!”

The robots were shown to be like Star Wars Movie stormtroopers in terms of effectiveness, and Star Trek Redshirts in terms of survivability.

Also, not caring for someone implies not giving any thought to their problems, and in this particular case those problems were directly or indirectly created by Ironwood's actions or negligence. Sending Penny down there is a band-aid, an illusion of action. Also he was running her 24/7, having girl do the job of an entire military and her sole energy source and repairs comes from her dying father, who’s also being run ragged on Jimmy’s project.

“But Team RWBY used the satellite?”

Should we just discard the progress, if it was made by amoral means? Or should we rather use it, to at least in some way honor those who suffered for it?

“But Ironwood didn’t commit murder till he shot Oscar”

Murder is not the only weapon in dictatorship's arsenal. There’s media control and forbidding public functions and mass gatherings, which Ironwood did in the first episode of V7. There’s also banning weapons unless you’re in the dictator’s private army, which Clover literally confirmed in the 2nd episode, even ignoring Qrow’s license.

“Influential people aren't simply council members. People with money and connection need to receive privileges in exchange for services they may provide. That's how politics work. “

And yet, he literally SINGLEHANDEDLY LOCKED DOWN ATLAS. And neither other council members, nor other "influential people", represented in a show by Jacques, could stop him, despite it hurting their bottom lines. Whoops.

“ Y'all keep forgetting what being a soldier/military man entails. You obey your superior without question. That's not authoritarian, that's how any self-respecting army functions. “

Huntsmen aren’t supposed to be soldiers, they’re warriors who act with a code and serve society, not a general who treats everything like a contest of measuring “GLYNDA!”

Ironwood privatized the Huntsmen System, thus preventing Atlas Huntsmen from serving society, with the exception of the Happy Huntresses, who Clover called “Worse than Grimm” to Qrow. Imagine that defying Ironwood makes you worse than Grimm? Apparently that’s all it took for Robyn Haters.

Speaking of Clover...obeying orders without question? You mean like how Clover decided to defend Ironwood’s decision to abandon Mantle, try to arrest Qrow, and completely disregard the mission to capture Tyrian because “Good soldiers follow orders?” Then the Qrow vs Tyrian vs Clover fight makes sense. Tyrian wanted to cause chaos, Qrow wanted to stop Ironwood and Tyrian, and Clover wanted to obey Ironwood’s orders without question. Qrow made the mistake of thinking that Tyrian, who had never lied before, had meant that “putting the kid to bed” simply meant incapacitating Clover, not killing Clover. Meanwhile Clover had no problem arresting anyone who wasn’t licensed by Ironwood or carrying weapons that weren’t part of Ironwood’s army. I guess Clover did die as he lived...not a huntsmen, but a soldier.

“ Unless they showed someone's corpse or Team RWBY looking at beggars, there wasn't any sign of famine or death as you mention. The most there was is extra security and frequent robot patrols. “

Just because there are no corpses lying around on the streets, doesn't mean that people aren't suffering. A lot of the times their suffering goes unseen. You can't deny that Mantle looks like a mix of cyberpunk slum and depressive post-USSR Eastern Europe city. That's enough to make an educated guess about the state of the city and its inhabitants.

Just because Ironwood sacrifices some things, doesn't give him the right to sacrifice something he doesn't own - namely, other people.

Watts of all people called Jimmy out on neglecting Mantle's security. Aside from that, how did he help Mantle aside from sending a few Huntsmen there, which is, again, a band-aid, and an illusion of action?

“Ironwood trusted them like he trusted Ozpin” Remember what he did to Ozpin in V2. You know, the whole going behind his “Friend’s” back to get Ozpin, Salem’s chief nemesis and founder of the schools, fired? And also putting Penny in the Vytal Tournament despite nobody allowing it if they knew she was an android? This is the same guy who talked about trust? Ironwood is a hypocrite because he loves to talk about trust while betraying everyone else’s.

Remember the episode “Sparks?”

Unrest doesn't happen like *snap* and everything blows up. Tension grows gradually and usually goes unnoticed, until it's at the point when a slightest spark is enough to ignite the situation. What Jacques and Watts did was that spark, but the groundwork was laid by Ironwood's actions raising the tension between Mantle and Atlas. And that growing unrest could be seen as far back as e1 of that volume - specifically, in the drunk racist and Forest.

“Ironwood didn’t expect Watts to be alive!”

Someone broke through a military grade cyber security and caused all Atlesian robots and mechs to go "Execute Order 66″ on people. Whether or not it was Watts is irrelevant, because it's a known (to Ironwood) fact that there's someone capable of doing it*.* You don't need a hindsight to account for it, just a regular sight and basic common sense. Which Ironwood has none. That Ironwood, knowing this, only went as far as updating the infrastructure in Atlas, but not in Mantle, is not just negligence, it's a sabotage of his own goals.

The fact is that Ironwood's methods revealed his disregard for people with whom his goals don't align.

“Ironwood was to take drastic actions! There needed to be sacrifices"

The sacrifices began when he locked down Atlas and Mantle. They were just incidental, a product of ignorance and negligence.

“Atlas was the mightiest military” Name one battle they won that didn’t involve Team RWBY’s help?

Their ships could barely fire upon some giant worms, and had not been updated since the great war, causing them only to be able to effectively fire single laser shots against other ships.

An elite huntsmen can take out tons of weaker grimm. And Ironwood’s ships were useless against grimm as well. The paladins could work...yes.But they had a nasty habit of being stolen or hacked...which was again, ironwood’s fault.

“Qrow was willing to trust Ironwood!”

Even though Qrow told them in V6 that they should ask Ironwood for help, by the time the team actually met Ironwood, Qrow had changed his position to not talking to him. Sound familiar? Something Lionhart?

Ironwood didn't take defensive measures against Salem's forces. We see in the very first episode that whatever Ironwood is doing to keep Salem's forces out of Mantle isn't working.

We learned in episode 2 that he was not only aware of his actions having literally the exact opposite effect of what he was promising the people of Mantle, but he also accepted that.

Even before the main cast met Ironwood, they knew he either had no idea what he was doing, or he wasn't on their side any more. They didn't know which it was, but they already knew they couldn't count on him.

The grand sum of Ironwood’s character is:

“I can tolerate leaving thousands of innocents to die for some vague concept of the great good, but I draw the line at insubordination and lying.”

“But Ruby and Yang were being hypocritical in going behind Ozpin’s back!” A huge part of volume 7 was that Ruby realized that Ozpin was ultimately morally grey, and morally grey I mean his actions he took while thinking of other people. Selfishness is the complete opposite of morally grey, which instantly disqualifies Raven Branwen (mass murderer and thief), Adam Branwen (Mass murderer and terrorist), and Roman Torchwick. (Thief, murderer, and racist) from ever being qualified as morally ambiguous. As a result, Ruby ends up acknowledging Ozpin’s points, and even starts working with him again in V8. Yang on the other hand was agreeing with Blake’s points during the cargo truck ride and decided to go: “Hey Robyn, I know jimmy is oppressing your people and your actions against him are valid, but he’s trying to restore global communications for the greater good and his ‘protector of mantle’ didn’t actually kill your constituents, so if you could please stop taking back what’s yours, James will eventually repair mantle.”

And Robyn went: Okay.

Yang and Blake got Robyn to be willing to compromise with Ironwood, something Ironwood cannot do himself, and something he is incapable of getting people to do unless he abuses his military and political power, which he does on a regular basis.

“But Robyn was a terrorist who sabotaged the project!”

She was taking back the supplies that were meant for Mantle, that Ironwood was stealing from Mantle, for his personal project that was done without the council’s authority. She was giving those supplies back to the people of Mantle. Which emboldened the suppliers of Mantle in giving them hope that they could pressure Ironwood to repair Mantle’s defenses. Ironwood’s response? Call the entire city of Mantle “A few cityblocks”

“Robyn’s outfit and equipment was ridiculous compared to Ironwood’s military”

Yeah, when you’re in a city that’s poorer than Vacuo and oppressed by a small-minded man with a giant ego, you don’t tend to have access to the best equipment, clothes, etc. Not to mention that unlike Vacuo, Huntsmen aren’t allowed to protect people in Atlas unless they’re part of Ironwood’s private army.

“Team RWBY were selfish, Ruby is acting just like Roman!”

Lying to save lives and prevent human extinction is not the same as lying for your own self interest. When the gang steal and airship to get into Atlas, it isn’t an evil thing. They are doing it so they can save lives and protect innocent people. The good guys make sacrifices when they have to, where there is absolutely no other choice. Ironwood would sacrifice anything he could to protect his people, you can debate whether or not he’s a true villain, but he goes to far. Sacrifice isn’t a last resort for him, he believes it is. But most villains believe they’re on the right side. This is why most “Rewrites” that try to “Fix” Roman, Adam , or Ironwood go out of their way to rewrite the plot and characters to try to claim that the Villains are in the right, and to shame any female characters who stand in their way. The both the White fang and the good side use violence. But the white fang use violence and seek division and persecution as vengeance for their own struggles. Ultimately, through salem’s manipulation, they divide the intelligent creatures of Remnant. They attack hurt innocent people to further their own goals. The good guys use violence so that violence can be ended. Remind you of anyone? Cough cough, Batman! The sin of the cynic is acting purely in self-interest. Torchwick's line of "lie, cheat, steal and survive" refers to putting his needs first and foremost. It's not the same as resorting to desperate methods to save lives. Like, Jaune cheating his way into Beacon is motivated by self-interest, but his idea to steal an airship in V6 was motivated by keeping others safe. He isn't proving Torchwick's ideals are right in the latter instance, it's quite the opposite. Same with Ruby.

I'm not sure how people can say that Ironwood was proven right when we are shown that there were ways to save the people of Mantle. It's not even a one-time thing either, he thought that he had to keep forcing Mantle to make sacrifices but it turns out it was completely possible to make a compromise with them.

And if we're going to be completely honest it's Ironwood's refusal to compromise that's the biggest factor regarding Atlas's fate. For example, Neo was able to steal the lamp because his soldiers unintentionally gave her the opportunity and a way to escape. It's what led to Robyn acting the way she did on the plane and everything involving Penny was because of him.

Frankly, the only point I can give critics is the white Fang and it's only because the series so horrifically failed to demonstrate the difference between Sienna and Adam.

“But Ironwood was prepared to compromise with Robyn”

He wanted to have her taken into custody 1st and only then was he going to "negotiate," with her... I don't think I need to explain how this is not under any circumstances an actual compromise.

The actual compromise between Ironwood and Mantle took place in the Schnee Manor and that was entirely thanks to Blake, Yang, and sadly Jacques. And that was a compromise that he broke mere hours later when he decided to completely unnecessarily abandon them all to die... A decision he made without seeking any advice and then straight up threatened the people who dared question him on it.

“Sleet: The fact of the matter is, you've operated with a fair amount of autonomy for the past few years, James. But we need now is for you to work with us “

So Ironwood disrespected his peers and did whatever he wanted, and when called out on it, refused to listen to his colleagues, his equals.

A person arrested and completely at James’ mercy ISNT really a negotiating.

“I can either throw you in jail for the rest of your life OR you can agree to work under me, under my terms and conditions.”

What a “””negotiation.“”” Much fair.

“But Ruby is the villain in the trolley scenario!” If the Trolley is the floating city of Atlas, then the people of Mantle are the ones lashed to the tracks, and Ironwood put them there. Salem is coming up behind the Trolley, and Ironwood wants to bulldoze over the Mantle people. Ruby and the Gang want to get the people on board, but Ironwood refuses to let them on. To the point where he will do anything to prove he’s right and somebody is wrong. Ironwood is literally the man who cuts off his nose to spite his face. So Ruby and Crew use Ambrosius to get everyone to a new destination.

“Ruby and crew destroyed Atlas!” According to Cinder, RWBY saved thousands. And if you think an infrastructure is what makes a kingdom, then you forget that a kingdom is nothing without living breathing people, who live in Atlas, who have made it to Vacuo, and while Vacuo is about as xenophobic as Atlas, they put power in the people, and everyone there works together for the common society. Aka, the greater good. The people of Atlas can do good for each other, when Ironwood isn’t sabotaging everything.

“Ruby sabotaged Ironwood’s broadcast!” Ironwood’s broadcast was “Hey world, I want you to ignore every bad thing I’ve done and every red flag I’ve given off because there’s a greater evil in the world, and I want you to let me use my army that failed to protect everyone into your borders just like I forcibly brought my army into the Vytal Peace festival. I promise I won’t do anything behind your backs like use your events for weapon testing of the human soul like I did back then?

What was Ruby’s Speech? “Hi Everyone, I’m a Huntress, my job is to help you all. Listen, Atlas is under attack by the same bad person that brought down Beacon. We’re all in the same mess. Yeah, she can’t be killed, but everyone working together has been able to stop her the past 80 years, and if we all work together again, we can do it again. Here’s some people you can trust to validate the info, but Ironwood can’t be trusted because of all his actions in the past and his red flags. I believe in you all, because you all can do incredible things, and together everyone can stop Salem”

So Ruby was trying to unite humanity, give EVERYONE the hope and strength to work together and fight Salem, and stop Ironwood from getting too big for his britches.

Ruby was not being a savior, Ironwood was trying to act like he was. Ruby was trying to make humans and faunus alike the saviors. Power of the People.

“Ironwood is a battle-hardened experienced general!” Remnant had been at peace for 80 years, the only conflict was Grimm and the White Fang. And Adam represented the main bad people out there...in Vale. So Ironwood basically used a display of military bravado for everything (Glynda’s words) and people think that’s battle experience? If that’s the case, then Team RWBY and JNPR have loads of experience both on Ironwood in terms of tactics, and on the Ace Ops in terms of combat. Oh wait! THEY DO! That explains why Ironwood fails so spectacularly against Salem and her agents tactics till Team RWBY comes along to help, and why Team RWBY can defeat the Ace Ops.

”He was completely different back in volumes 2-3!″

Why did people look at Adam Taurus, a wannabe edgelord who tried to murder innocent passengers on a train....and then people decided to defend his every action? Claiming Adam was “misunderstood?” What, like Vergil from Devil May Cry, who murdered innocent people for power and had no problem unleashing monsters onto civilians, just like Adam did in Volume 3?

Why did people look at Ironwood, who brought a war fleet to a international peace conference, got screamed at for his warmongering by the Assistant Headmaster who kept her voice relatively level even against team rwby’s food fight, got the headmaster fired for not obeying Jimmy, and used the conference to conduct weaponization of the human soul projects....and claim he was a savior?

So yeah...Ironwood was cool, had drip, had charisma, had good intentions. But his actions spoke louder than his words. Sadly people only listened to his words. Must be his Messiah Complex.

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uncaught-coolfish · 5 months

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skittles squad pull up to the projects

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artninjasworld · 2 months

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Just a little doodle i did a couple of years back.

Still looks good for the bullheaded fellow there

#RWBY #rwby #adam taurus #sketch #white fang #rwby white fang #doodle #doodles

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dappercat123 · 1 year

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Ghira vs Adam

So there are posts going around again rightfully pointing out that Adam was not a good freedom fighter, which is true and he deserves a ton of shit for it

But I don’t really see people calling out ghira for also being a shitty freedom fighter? His passive attitude and belief in respectability politics makes him useless at BEST for his role

But Adam constantly gets shit on for it, but ghira gets a pass?

It doesn’t help that the show itself at least recognizes Adam was in the wrong, but ghira? They’re perfectly fine putting him in charge again,

And to be honest Blake hasn’t been much of a freedom fighter either, watts did more to take down the SDC then anybody else

Sienna Kahn was a good freedom fighter but she gets killed off and never acknowledged again

Ilia COULD have been a good freedom fighter but now she’s following ghira

#rwby #blake bellodona #ghira belladonna #adam taurus #RWBY white fang #sienna khan

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bumblebybelladonna · 1 year

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It does seem weird to give the gaston character such a sympathetic backstory,

Like, we have every reason to hate Adam, he fully deserves it

But it will never not bug me that he was branded like cattle and the show never acknowledges it again,

Blake has so far shown no propensity towards activism since leaving the white fang, even ins road, meanwhile she leaves ghira in charge despite expressly telling us his methods didn’t work on the past

sorry for the delay in replying!!

really the whole White Fang issue was very badly explored during the show, but that will never justify Adam's actions with Blake, with the faunus and with people who had nothing to do with it

he was killing humans and faunus, we saw several scenes like this, he tried to kill Blake, Yang, he killed Sienna and his fellow White Fang members….

and Blake does not need to show propensity, SHE IS THE VICTIM, SHE WAS ADAM'S VICTIM, regardless of what may have happened to him in the past, nothing will justify everything he did to her, the faunus and White Fang. he never wanted justice or fought for the rights of the faunus, he wanted revenge, and attacked whoever was in front of him

about Ghira, he is fully capable of being the leader of White Fang, after all he founded it and is head of Menagerie. His methods didn't work as they were peaceful and had to be. There is no point in wanting respect and attacking everyone, just like Adam did (he only hurt White Fang even more). That's why he resigned and Sienna took over (who shared with Adam, the ideas of aggressive actions)

#adam taurus #adam taurus 🤢#rwby adam #rwby #blake belladonna #rwby blake #white fang #rwby white fang #rwby sienna #rwby ghira belladonna #ghira belladonna #rwby v5

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xxspellbloxedxx · 11 months

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Cyrus Los, Tawny oldest brother and White Fang lieutenant

#rwby #fun #rwby oc #rwby original character design #rwby original characters #rwby original character #rwby characters design #rwby character designs #rwby character design #rwby white fang #white fang #my oc

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megashadowdragon · 1 year

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reddit comments

White Fang learned that Adam would sacrifice all of them if it meant gaining some measure of revenge for no meaningful gain. When Mistral police and Faunus militia cornered Adam´s troops in Haven he tried to detonate the bombs he and his troops had set all over the academy before they were clear from the area. Luckily for both sides, Illia who was working for the militia managed to defuse the bombs before Adam pushed the button. His troops started to question his leadership and after his troops were captured or they surrendered he simply escaped and when the remaining White Fang learned about this they stopped following him and were killed by Adam. Well, his actions led to Menagerie turning against the White Fang and then he made it worse by ordering his men to fight their family and friends. Then when things stopped going his way he attempted to activate the bombs to blow everyone up... which is not how a good leader handles things. But the cherry on top is when he straight-up abandoned his men in an act that can only be called selfish and cowardly. In short that 1 night was just a whirlwind of consequences and bad decisions on his end that destroyed any legitimacy he might have otherwise had. 7 Reply Share User avatar level 2 G119ofReddit · 1 hr. ago · edited 50 min. ago The thing is he’s shown this type of behavior before. Back in V2/3, Mercury brings up the point if the WF will still follow orders after such a loss during the Breach and Adam just goes “they’ll listen to me.” No remorse about WF dieing for a human’s cause, no arguments towards Cinder about the lives of his men being used as Pawns, nothing. Just continues to follow Cinder’s plan cuz at the end of the day it achieves what he wants, Revenge on Blake. And then as you explained he actually takes moves on that mindset in V5 when his plans start to fall apart in he tries to go through with it anyways regardless of his own men’s lives. Not caring about WF lives as long as he get what he wants… Sounds familiar doesn’t it? Once that part about him is revealed in the open it’s pretty easy to understand why the WF turned on him.

Adam was so certain that attacking the academies was the right thing to do that he murdered Sienna to take over and get her out of his way.

But then he failed so spectacularly that he got all of the men he brought with him captured, AND the entire Faunus race basically showed up to fight against him, telling the White Fang that they had lost the support of the Faunus entirely because of him.

Then, when the militia showed up, he almost sacrificed all of his men and then ran away.

They turned because Adam lost all credibility by V6 via his very public failure in another terrorist attack on a pillar of civilization, with a sizable Faunus militia actively pushing the WF under his command back. He'd tried to pull a suicide play of which is allies openly spoke out against, and failed at that. And then he didn't even stick around or defend his men, but run away to save his own skin. And all of this the work of his former subordinate/victim, who also discredited him to his face. Basically every decision that was made under Adam's leadership actively just made things worse, and got people killed needlessly; which is what Adam wanted, but not the WF.

Also they like didn't even really turn against him, they made some mild comments about his incompetence, and just questioned his leadership, and he immediately started slaughtering them. He massacred the remains of the Mistral WF at the first signs of dissent, and they hadn't even actually done anything to undermine him yet. Adam destroyed the WF because he couldn't stand having his authority questioned, or handle his own failures.

@kob131

#rwby adam taurus #adam taurus #rwby #rwby white fang

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howlingday · 3 months

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Jaune: Ugh...

White Fang: He's coming to.

Jaune: What... What do you want?

White Fang: Silence, human! We will ask the questions here!

Jaune: Okay...

White Fang: Where is your team? When is your extraction?

Jaune: ...I'll answer you if you answer one question for me.

White Fang: Fine, human scum. I'll humor you. Ask your question.

Jaune: Do you know what's worse than a captured huntsman?

White Fang: Your team? What the hell kind of question is that?

Jaune: Eh, pretty close. But it's actually a person with a reason to live.

White Fang: (Feels Jaune ship breathing down his neck)

Jaune: And in case you couldn't tell, I'M their reason to live.

#rwby #mama sleepyklaus #imaging your jaune ship #imagine your otp #jaune arc #white fang #the white fang

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rainbow-zebra-art · 4 months

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I don't know what this style is anymore, let's call this one a clean sketch?? Here's a (relatively) quick redraw/reimagining of one of my first commissions. It was made for JumpinJammies, and it was her funny idea too! I'll always be grateful to her and my other friends who were willing to start paying me for my drawings... It really boosted my confidence back then <3

So I've been glancing at that drawing for a couple of years now, feeling a strong desire to draw Sienna in this silly sweater again. Which I finally did these winter holidays. And I made her stripes a bit differently, since after this drawing we learned a little more about them.

#rwby #rwby fanart #sienna khan #sienna #rwby faunus #faunus #white fang #new year #holidays #greenlightvolume10

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hamliet · 2 months

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Do you have any thoughts on how RWBY handled the white fang storyline?

Unpopular opinion: it's decent?

Now, now, before people come at me with pitchforks: yes, it's overly simplified. The entire story is a fairy tale, though, so that's not out of place. It also complements the rest of the story thematically, and manages to incorporate nuance and complexity in despite the simplification of issues.

I think it's a mistake to look at the White Fang as a 1=1 of the real life struggles of marginalized groups. That said, there obviously are parallels, and so people aren't mistaken to note those. I just think it's not meant to be an instructional manual and shouldn't necessarily be viewed as one, but rather a conversation starter in some ways. And yes, those conversations can and should include critiques.

So I'll go over the points that I think it did well and how those ties into real life, but also specifically how they work for RWBY's overall story. This does not negate criticisms, especially those by marginalized groups.

In contrast to some other fictional depictions, RWBY actually is better as well because it avoids the number one pitfall of such issues: the X-Men fallacy. I've talked about this in terms of Attack on Titan before, but essentially it's the idea that the problem with depicting discrimination against superpowered people is that, well, there is a logical reason for people to be concerned about superpowers; hence, it almost justifies that very discrimination it seeks to condemn. This isn't present in the faunus/human divide. They are both capable of superpowers.

It also doesn't fall into another common pitfall: the idea that people have to be perfect to be victims of discrimination. The White Fang... has senselessly and cruelly murdered people; doesn't mean faunus discrimination isn't also cruel and senseless and doesn't justify it. And this is something that we do see in real life too--people trying to either completely whitewash the actions of radical anti-oppression movements, which can do awful things, or trying to use these awful things as evidence that these people deserve discrimination when really it's a result of rage and desperation at a society that refuses to give them anything. That doesn't justify the pain of the victims of the awful things (see, Weiss) but nor does it negate the righteousness of that anger.

It does portray the faunus as a fairly diverse group too, when fiction often portrays marginalized groups as a monolith. That's not true. People from one group have very different ideas about what liberation looks like, and what they want to achieve. People in marginalized groups are people, and they can be motivated by a variety of selfless principles and egotistical validation, and neither negate the other. See, Sienna vs. Ghira vs. Adam.

Now, of course within RWBY Ghira's more nonviolent principles more or less win out. That's because RWBY is again a fairy tale where you have to fight to live, but that also doesn't endorse violence. If you expected otherwise, wrong genre. Of course the real world is far more complex, but it's not as if there is no real world basis for this either. Peacemakers exist, and nonviolence has accomplished a lot before. Whether or not that's the be-all-end-all of the faunus struggle in RWBY isn't even clear, so I don't think it's intended to be the be-all-end-all preached moral as it applies to the real world either.

Story-wise, the White Fang functions as a Jungian shadow of society. If you do not take charge of your own life, you are letting others decide for you. The faunus who disagree with the White Fang take it back, because they have to acknowledge it to move forward in society. They have to integrate with it, and accept their own humanity: capable of good and what they might rather deny.

This faction--the faunus who don't like the White Fang--are represented in Ghira, who becomes passive and steps back from aspects of the movement. However, when Blake arrives in Menagerie, this changes, because Blake's entire arc is about integration. Ghira then becomes active, working for the rights of the faunus and for the White Fang to be better rather than simply disavowing the White Fang in an attempt to be a good person, because doing nothing isn't exactly good.

On a more character level, the White Fang exists for Blake's arc. Her Jungian archetype is the Shadow. Like, it's literally her semblance's name. Hence, the idea of the shadow is gonna be important. If you want more on this, @aspoonofsugar has written a meta on it here and another here.

So, for Blake, on a personal level the White Fang (especially under Adam) represents the parts of herself she doesn't like. The part that ran from her family. The part that is violent. And yet, she cannot abandon it or simply disavow it. No, the answer is instead:

We’re not going to destroy the White Fang. We’re going to take it back.

She has to integrate with it, take the good--the righteous anger, the focus on justice and equality.

The White Fang also comments on the microcosm/macrocosm of alchemy.

For the unaware, RWBY is an alchemical story, and the principles of alchemy are represented in the symbol for the philosopher's stone, as seen above. Microcosm: the smaller circle enclosing two people in the center who come together (hence chemical weddings). The square is the four elements: water, earth, fire, air. The triangle is body, heart, and mind. The larger circle is the macrocosm.

The Shadows for Blake on a personal level--microcosm--is Adam. The Shadow on a worldwide, big picture scale--the macrocosm--is the White Fang. Integrating with the shadow isn't only an individualistic endeavor, but also one that benefits society as a whole and brings life to the entire world. The main point of alchemy's philosopher's stone, which Blake, along with the rest of RWBY, are symbolically being transformed into.

I think the main issue with the White Fang, by the way, is its handling of Adam. Typically you don't kill the shadow, though I do think Blake kinda had no choice. Still, I don't think the show fully explored him.

Yet what does work with what we have is that Yang has to face Adam, Blake's shadow, to be with Blake. Yang losing her arm to Adam parallels her being upset about losing Blake to fear, because symbolically Blake can hurt her deeply in the way only a lover can. Blake has to stop running from her shadow and allow herself ot be known and seen by Yang to be with her.

#ask hamliet #rwby #rwby meta #blake belladonna #yang xiao long #white fang #adam taurus #bumbleby #sienna khan #ghira belladonna

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howi99 · 3 months

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Jaune: Did you know? The average human is composed of 60% water. And did you know that if someone were to eat a spoonful of Ice dust, it would be enough to turn 87% of that water into ice?

White Fang grunt from the dock: *Crying* I already told you i know nothing! Please! Have mercy!

Jaune: ... Why is everyone reacting like that to my fun fact?

#jaune arc #rwby #rwby au #rwby shitpost #jaune is a genius au #white fang

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lovingdabeessss · 4 months

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RWBY MEMES

#rwby #yang xiao long #blake belladonna #bumbleby #rwby bumbleby #ruby rose #yang x blake #weiss schnee #blake x yang #jaune arc #little #white fang

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sirazaroff · 9 months

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"Serial Kisser Blake" is so funny to me cuz I imagine she's going full ninja-assassin with it. Like, she picks a target (Yang, Weiss, Ruby, etc) and just hunts them from the shadows. They feel eyes on them and suddenly they just mutter "Oh boy..." Then the lights go out, you hear rapid-fire kisses, and the lights come back on and the target has black kisses all over and is on the ground in a family guy-esk pose. Meanwhile, Blake's all "target neutralized"

Blake how could you…she was so young…

#fooze #rwby #ruby rose #blake bellodona #weiss schnee #yang xiao long #rwby ruby #rwby blake #rwby weiss #rwby yang #Blake’s dangerous I’m tellin you #those days in the white fang weren’t for nothin #anyways I’m glad you guys also find serial kisser Blake as amusing as I do #sorry for the long wait in answering this!

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dappercat123 · 1 year

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The problems with the white fang and why they aren’t Adam

So a lot of fan’s fans of the show believe Adam’s portrayal was generally well done even tho the rest of the Faunus arc wasn’t, and I tend to agree

But nobody really explains WHY the Faunus arc is bad beyond that? So I’m going to explain my issues with other characters and their stories relevant to that arc

First off, ilia amitola

A lot of fans point out that ilia is the character others wanted Adam to be, and they’re mostly right

The issue is not Ilia as a character, it’s her story arc,

Ilia rightfully points out his humans at large ignore the Faunus who die pointlessly for their benifit and only get upset when the Faunus try to fight back, her parents where killed because of the SDCs racist policies and she was mocked for it by her schoolmates

The old methods didn’t seem to be making progress and she felt hopeless, so she ended up siding with Adam because she “didn’t know what to do”

But here’s the thing, the beladonnas haven’t shown her a better way? What alternatives have they provided her exactly? Ghira’s non violent methods that we are expressly told didn’t fucking work? She’s in a better place then she was under Adam but that’s a pretty low fucking bar, she’s not killing innocent people but she’s not making any progress towards stopping what happened to her parents from happening again.

Meanwhile the dust company that killed her parents and the society that mocked her for it are now GONE, and they’re gone because of Salem

Besides Robyn, Salem is the only one shown meaningfully challenging the status quo.

So with Salem being the only one to successfully end the SDCs reign of terror, what conclusion are we supposed to draw here?

And then there’s ghira.

I think we all generally agree ghira was in the wrong for his actions in the Adam trailer, where he got mad Adam getting violent with a lynch mob because it makes them “look bad”, honestly if he was upset because he believed Adam went overboard that would be one thing but his exact words where “this is why they think they can-“ he was upset because it made them “look bad” to the lynch mob that was trying to kill them I guess?

But does the show know he was in the wrong?

He gets to be leader of the white fang! Blake who is the “face of the white fang arc” never questions him! Yeah she left him initially because she disagreed with his methods, but this is treated as a result of Adam’s manipulation and she looks back on her time with the violent white fang purely negatively when she describes it in volume 2. She makes no distinction between sienna’s white fang and Adam’s, even after sienna is introduced.

So the show seems to suggest that Blake was in the wrong for questioning him? That he was always right and Blake and ilia made the wrong choice? Even if said choice is presented as sympathetic and understandable. And ghira’s way is proven “right” when saving haven from the “bad minority” apparently immediately makes mistral so noticeably more accepting of Faunus that even the jaded ilia notices, which sends the hopefully unintentional message of “if we behave and stop the bad minority for them then the humans will reward our good behavior with better treatment”

Quite frankly ghirah’s actions in the Adam trailer seem similar to RHODES in cinders backstory, both telling someone that using violence against your oppressors makes you the villain,

But we’re supposed to view Rhodes as the villain, the man who cared more about upholding the status quo then protecting a tortured child

What are we supposed to think of ghira?

And here’s the thing, crwby gave at least shown that respectability politics is WRONG in other stories, we paint rhodes in the wrong and show Robyn breaking the law and fighting the atlas military as a good thing, we see marrow “Proving himself” as an ace op at best makes atlas view him as “one of the good ones”

And yet the narrative still never questions ghira, which means they know they fucked up yet don’t want to or are unable to fix it, or they think it’s only ok to use violence if you’re not a racial minority,

And people say “ghira is just holding the fort until salem is beaten and Blake can step into the leadership role ok then. How has Blake shown to be any different then ghira in how she fights for civil rights?

#rwby #ghira belladonna #sienna khan #ilia amitola #robyn hill #blake bellodona #rwby salem #RWBY white fang #rwby meta

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