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david-talks-sw · 6 months

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How the narrative framed Mace Windu, back in 2002

So there's this 2002 book written by Marcus Hearn, edited by J.W. Rinzler, titled Attack of the Clones - The Illustrated Companion. It was released a month before Episode II was released.

AKA, before EU material and anti-Jedi fanon could publicly reframe the meanings of the film... and before more recent narratives could reinterpret the character of Mace as a robotic, protocol-worshipping stickler who never bends the rules (when evidence shows he's anything but).

So how does Marcus Hearn - "untainted" by all the above factors, armed only with the Prequel films and their screenplays - frame the character of Mace Windu?

MACE & ANAKIN

Fandom: "Mace hated Anakin from Day #1 and never trusted him. Mace was probably jealous as he always thought he was the Chosen One, not Anakin!"

Attack of the Clones' - The Illustrated Companion:

"Jedi Masters Yoda and Mace Windu lead the High Council in rejecting Qui-Gon's application to train Anakin, 'He is too old,' concludes Mace Windu. 'There is already too much anger in him.'

Hearn explains that the problem with Anakin wasn't that he was just too old, it's that because of that age he had become too filled with fear and anger to a point where taking on the Jedi training would be twice as hard for him as it already was for everyone else.

Hearn doesn't chastise Mace for this initial decision. On the contrary, he adds more context to it by using a line from the screenplay to explain where Mace is coming from.

He also goes further into Mace's view of Anakin throughout the book:

"[Mace] over-estimates Anakin Skywalker, paying little credence to Obi-Wan's protestations that the boy is too confused and disturbed to be dispatched on a solo mission."

"The Jedi Council is aware of Anakin's exceptional skills, and Mace Windu believes Anakin may fulfill the prophecy that says a being will one day bring balance to the Force. But Anakin still has a lot to learn…"

He's basically stating that Mace believes in Anakin, but that doing so is a mistake. Which, to be fair, considering how things turn out for Mace and the Jedi... is kinda true!

Mace's problem with Anakin is almost the opposite of what most of the fandom projects onto him.

It's not that he dislikes Anakin, on the contrary, he holds Anakin in too high of an esteem and is overlooking Anakin's glaring flaws because "hey, Anakin's the Chosen One. He's got this!"

That's not the only flaw Mace has, according to Hearn.

MACE'S (and the Jedi's) ONLY REAL FLAW

Fandom: "Mace and the Jedi had become too emotionally detached, they had lost touch with the common folk by spending too much time in their ivory tower. They focused so much on being selfless that they forgot how to care, they've become a bunch of elitist, righteous sticklers for protocol who care more about upholding laws than actually helping the people those laws are meant to protect!"

Attack of the Clones' - The Illustrated Companion:

"Although he is a senior member of the Jedi Council, little in Mace Windu's experience has prepared him for the looming threats of the dark side of the Force and Count Dooku's Separatists."

"Mace Windu's faith in the Jedi to protect the Republic is admirable, but it also blinds him to the true scale of the growing menace. He is aware that the dark side is growing, but still allows himself to be too easily reassured about the Separatists' ambitions. [...] Mace fatally misjudges Count Dooku, refusing to believe he could be behind any attempt on Senator Amidala's life. 'Dooku was once a ledi, he tells Padmé. 'He couldn't assassinate anyone. It's not in his character.'"

"Mace Windu's strengths are, in many ways, qualities shared by the Jedi Order as a whole - he is an accomplished diplomat and a fine swordsman. Such skills have served the Jedi well in their role as the galaxy's peacekeepers for a thousand generations. But such skills are not enough to save the Jedi from their own complacency, and the tumultuous changes that threaten to wipe them out forever."

Hearn perfectly grasps what the Jedi's only real flaw is, in George Lucas' intended narrative: they were unprepared, complacent, they were blind... and now they're stuck playing catch-up.

But when he's saying that, he's not blaming them for it. Because this flaw doesn't derive from some sense of elitism or superiority... it is an inevitable consequence of their qualities.

They've managed to stay out of politics as neutral diplomats... ... but that makes them vulnerable to the Sith's plot, which primarily takes place within the political arena, where they have no control or experience.

They are painfully aware of the corruption in the Senate... ... but as a result, they're too quick to trust the Separatist's talking points as well-meaning and genuine, instead of seeing the movement for what it really is: greedy big business trying to become the government.

They trust and agree with Dooku, believe in what he publicly stands for (after all this man used to be one of the wisest and kindest members of the Jedi Order, Mace's friend, Yoda's Padawan, etc)... ... but as such, they are blind to his true nature, that of a treacherous Sith who'd stoop to orchestrating assassinations.

The Jedi have their guard up, knowing that there's another Sith Lord still out there, orchestrating in the shadows... ... but they can't really find him, because the Dark Side has clouded everything, so only darksiders are able to sense the possibilities of the future! Them serving the good side is screwing them over, in this situation.

Flaws such as being too trusting or being unprepared, letting your guard down because you've established a 1000-year-peace, are flaws that kind, noble characters such as the Jedi are bound to have.

They may be flaws, but they aren't faults. And considering the way he describes Mace and the Jedi, it's clear Hearn grasps the nuance.

MACE'S RELUCTANCE TO JOIN THE WAR

Fandom: The Jedi joined the war out of arrogance, they thought they could swashbuckle their way through the problem and win, instead they didn't realize that they lost the very moment they joined.

Attack of the Clones' - The Illustrated Companion:

"Mace Windu believes in the Jedi as keepers of the peace - not as soldiers - but there comes a point when he reluctantly realizes that it is time to take affairs out of the realm of diplomacy."

Mace and the Jedi didn't want to start a war. If you read the script for Attack of the Clones, Mace and Bail keep grasping at straws to not engage with the Separatists up til the very end.

But when you consider that...

the Geonosians are about to execute Obi-Wan without a trial,

and the Separatists leaders have been unmasked as a coalition of unscrupulous corporate assholes who are willing to plunge the galaxy in chaos just to make more money.

... at some point, the Jedi have to come to terms with the fact that Separatist leadership (and Sidious) won't accept diplomacy because they want a conflict. A conflict will make them all richer. And the Republic, well, they're just dying to go to war too.

So the Jedi go save Obi-Wan and capture Dooku, hoping that in doing so, the conflict ends before it begins. They succeed in the former goal... but fail the latter one.

The Clone War has begun.

From there on, the Jedi are drafted to lead the war. Which is why - as Hearn points out - Mace was so reluctant to take action in the first place. The Jedi are ambassadors, they are not built for war... and now they've been forced into one.

Mace is by no means a perfect character... but he's someone doing his best. Just like Obi-Wan, just like Yoda, and all the other Jedi.

Overtime, Windu's character has been dumbed down to either "that one angry black man" or "the dogmatic emotionless dick who hated Anakin"... and I really think that that's not what we were meant to see him as.

The way Marcus Hearn (who also wrote The Cinema of George Lucas) refers to him is a much more charitable interpretation of how others (ahem Filoni ahem) do, nowadays.

#Mace Windu #mace windu appreciation #long post #jedi order #anakin skywalker #meta #in defense of the jedi #star wars #master windu #samuel l jackson #attack of the clones #aotc #star wars prequels #flashing gif #very long post

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cruella1989 · 1 month

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What do you think they’re talking about?

#star wars #memes #palpatine #sheev palpatine #mace windu #master windu #anakin skywalker #anakin #obiwan kenobi #obiwan #star wars prequels #funny #sw memes #i hate sand #i have the high ground #i am the senate #take a seat #we do not grant you the rank of master #sw prequels

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skywalkerrtno · 2 months

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green-ajah-aes-sedai · 7 months

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What if Mace Windu Survived!AU

#mace windu #mace windu survived au #star wars #jedi #star wars edit #star wars moodboard #star wars aesthetic #au edits #au edit #my aus #my edits #my faves #samuel l jackson #master windu

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star-wars-forever · 8 months

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#star wars #star wars art #mace windu #jedi #jedi knight #jedi master #master windu #the clone wars #lightsaber

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weregonnabecoolbeans · 2 months

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Pairing the seemingly most rational star wars character (mace) with the most over dramatic one (jar jar) was an insane choice for season 6 of the clone wars but i kinda love seeing them work together

#i honestly love mace so much #he volunteered to go on this mission #he willing chose to work with jar jar which is insane #i could have gone without knowing about jar jar’s love life though #that was…a choice #mace windu #jar jar binks #star wars #star wars the clone wars #the clone wars #tcw #sw the clone wars #sw tcw #jedi #master windu #jar jar #kate's post

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starwarsmyversion · 3 months

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I can't 😭😭😭

#star wars #funny #lol #funny tweets #tweet #anakin skywalker #star wars anakin #master windu #mace windu #anakin is a little shit #anakin skywalker is an idiot #padawan anakin #anakin skywalker being himself just a little dumb #anakin skywalker being himself just in my version #anakin skywalker being anakin skywalker #Anakin Skywalker idiot #this is my own tag #these are my tags

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moodboards-aesthetics · 2 months

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Mace Windu aka Master of the Order

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jaguarys · 4 months

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Thinking about a Jedi Maul AU where Palpatine decides to send him out too early to hopefully Kill Some Jedi and he ultimately picks possibly the worst target imaginable in going after Mace Windu. Both because Mace is inarguably the best swordsman of the Order and just not menaced at all and also because he's way too tired for a feral teenager bouncing off him with seemingly never-ending energy to continually try to kill him. And so Mace kind of picks him up by the scruff of the neck and carts him off to the Order like "Um. Evil child. Help" but at this point Maul has imprinted on him with some really warped form of respect and so. Mace ends up with a fucked up little padawan who's more domesticated than really redeemed. But if the results are the same, who really needs to know

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enigmatist17 · 10 months

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Kind of a sequel to this post based off AU art done by @chiliger

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"...nearly made him jump 20 feet into the air. He was not amused."

The laughter that filled the air was loud enough to cover the snort of amusement that Cody let out as he sipped his drink.

"I hope you got a vid of that, Kenobi never gets scared as far as I know." Wolffe sat forward with a grin, his elongated canines startling some nearby natborns that were passing by 79's. It wasn't often a lot of the commanders were on Coruscant at the same time, and in honor they were gifted the expansive table that overlooked the street and hyperlane outside the bar.

"Oh yea, copied it the second he stalked off to his quarters." Cody chuckled, sitting back with a crack of his neck.

"So, he still talk to you like a nervous shiny when he sees your teeth?" Bly smirked, stealing the last of the bar food that Fox had ordered some time ago.

"Not as much, but if he thinks I don't feel the way he watches me all the time, he's mistaken."

"So...are you going to take your shot?" Fox took a swig of his drink, quite firmly in the drunk-but-not-overly-so department. "Because if not..."

"Don't..." Cody growled, and bares his teeth at Fox as the others giggle and laugh at the display.

"Please, Foxy here has his own prey." Rex snickered from his corner of the table, using Ponds as a support to stay upright. He may or may not have had more than a few drinks, and may or may not be finding this entire situation hilarious. "More than one I've heard too?" Rex is sent into some proper laughter when Fox's much louder growl and bared teeth silences a few nearby tables, officers and various troopers freezing as they seemingly await some sort of standoff before realizing it had nothing to do to them. A quick glanced shows that Fox is focused on someone at his table and not on any of them, and slowly conversation resumes save the occasional look their way.

It was never wise to be around a higher ranked officer when they're facing off over someone they had feelings for.

"Careful Rex, might end up arrested until you're sober." Bly snickered, and Fox snorts in amusement as he relaxes back into his seat.

"I am just Fox right now, and I am going to keep drinking until I forget what the GAR is." Fox waved for a fresh round, Cody patting his shoulder with a nod.

"Then let's keep the stories coming eh? Maybe scare some of the others again. Should get you plenty drunk eh?"

Fox grinned, and raised his glass with a hum.

By the end of the night they're the last ones in 79's, so drunk and unaware the music had died down and people had left they failed to see a group of amused men sitting at the main bar.

"How much longer do you think it'll take?" Anakin Skywalker grinned, sipping a water as he watched the commanders burst into laughter about something.

"A few minutes, Ponds appears to be slowly falling asleep." Plo Koon hummed, using the bar as a seat in his meditation pose.

"I do hope so." Obi-Wan Kenobi was trying very hard not to blush as he listened to Cody talk about an encounter they had shared a few weeks ago. Mace Windu was staring at him, and he was going to be damned if he let the man have a single inch of blackmail material via his reaction.

"What, all the glittering teeth over there setting you off?" Anakin snorted into his drink, jumping out of the way when a bar stool is thrown in his direction. The noise attracted the attention of the drunken crew, who finally seemed to realize that there were Jetti in a very empty bar, and attempt to stand at attention.

Instead, Bly and Wolffe trip over their own feet, and without Fox and Rex grabbing them, they would have fallen flat on their faces.

"At ease, at ease." Plo chuckled, moving to stand as the group stumble their way down towards the bar. "We thought you may want some assistance, you all are quite inebriated."

"That means drunk." Bly snickered, and everyone but Wolffe starts giggling as their Jetti watch on with some soft chuckles among them.

"Come, you can stay in the Temple tonight, it's much closer than your barracks." Windu waved his hand to start turning off the last of the lighting the owners had left on, Plo and Anakin becoming some support for the drunk men to remain upright. Cody suspiciously was the closest to Obi-Wan, hugging the man from behind and all but melding them together.

"Hello sir." Obi-Wan is very aware that Cody is dragging his feet, the others already out the door by the time the two of them had made it even halfway across the room. "Didn't see you waiting for us."

"It's quite alright." Obi-Wan coughed, nearly jumping again when Cody presses his face against his neck. "Cody?"

"Mhm?"

"May I ask why you're uh, so close to my neck?" Obi-Wan bites his tongue when he feels Cody hum, the noise rumbling in his chest.

"No reason." The clone purred, and mumbles something Obi-Wan can't catch.

"Come, there should be a vehicle for us to use." Obi-Wan knows the others have already gone, and is grateful that Mace in particular isn't there to tease him. He goes to say something else, but whatever words that were forming in his mind are suddenly scattered when Cody presses a kiss to his neck. The man is letting his canines purposefully drag as he kisses a trail along Obi-Wan's shoulder, pushing away thoughts of wanting to do more as he finally pulls away from his flustered general.

"Coming general?" The drunken man grinned, stepping around so he could get a look at the wide-eyed Jetti.

"....you are an absolute bastard." Obi-Wan's voice is strained as the two finally leave the bar, Obi-Wan locking the door as Cody stumbles to the nearby speeder. "Passenger seat Comm-dear."

Now it was his turn to see the way Cody looked back, reminding him of a fresh-faced solider the way he stumbles into the passenger side of the speeder.

Obi-Wan is grinning the entire ride to the Temple, and Cody has his face in his hands at being the one to be an embarrassed mess upon their arrival.

Oh well, there's always next time.

#personal #star wars #clone wars #bigger teeth clone au #bigger teeth au #chiliger #commander cody #obi wan kenobi #codywan #commander fox #commander wolffe #captain rex #commander ponds #commander bly #master windu #anakin skywalker #plo koon #just having fun with this AU

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an-old-lady · 1 year

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Fantasy Star Wars Mace Windu

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david-talks-sw · 2 years

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why do so many people hate on Mace Windu?

'Cause he's too much of a badass for them to handle! Jokes aside, this is a subject I came across a few times. If I had to guess why?

1. "Mace was a jerk to Anakin!"

A lot of people see Mace as "always being antagonistic towards Anakin". When - if you look at the facts - that's not really true.

In Episode I, sure, Mace initially votes to not let Anakin into the Jedi Order. But shortly after, when it's put to a vote a second time, Yoda is the only one still not wanting Anakin to join.

Implying... that Mace was cool with it!

Hell, there's even a non-canon comic that covered this, with Windu actually arguing letting Anakin into the Jedi Order against Yoda because he thinks Anakin will bring Balance to the Force.

In the comic, he also suggests giving Qui-Gon’s lightsaber to Anakin.

In Episode II, he's actually defending Anakin. He and the Council are confident in Anakin's ability to have his first solo mission, praising Anakin's skills and - in a deleted scene - even reminding Obi-Wan to have more faith in his Padawan.

Finally, in Episode III, at a first glance, it looks like Mace is indeed written in a way that makes him antagonistic to Anakin (the same Anakin who turns to the Dark Side in the same film, so maybe his instincts weren't so off after all...)

A lot of people say "he says he doesn't trust Anakin!" and I've already covered what that's really about here:

TLDR: he says he doesn't trust Anakin when he's 1) on a secret mission 2) with Palpatine. Which makes sense, because Anakin isn't exactly subtle and he has an emotional attachment toward Palpatine who everyone can see has Anakin wrapped around his finger.

Also, if you wanna count it... the novelization of Revenge of the Sith justifies this by the unbearable stress he is under.

A stress due to the Clone War and his whole Order being drafted into being warriors when they're supposed to be diplomats, thus causing hundred if not friends of his comrades to die (and don't even get me started on how hard the loss of clone lives must weigh on him).

Jedi of the Republic: Mace Windu writer Matt Owens seems to echo this sentiment:

"The Jedi are like atomic bombs: they have so much power, but they really don’t want to use it. Mace is a masterful warrior who doesn’t relish fighting. Such use of his power goes against his code, but if he doesn’t use it, what will become of the Republic? As a member of the Jedi Council, he is under pressure because he is a leader. He’s forced into an uncomfortable situation where he is doing something he doesn’t entirely agree with for what he believes is ultimately the greater good. But he has to be sure of himself because he has so many others looking to him for direction." - Matt Owens, Star Wars Insider Special Edition, 2021

So it's not personal toward Anakin at all, but Anakin's whining and making it all about himself certainly isn't relieving the stress.

But hey, let's suppose he is a dick to Anakin in Episode III (he's not, but let's go along with it).

That's still one movie out of three. So if there's a change in attitude toward Anakin from Attack of the Clones to Revenge of the Sith...

... what spurred it?

What event would make Mace go from telling Obi-Wan to have faith in Anakin to having him be adversarial toward him?

It would've been nice to see that in an episode from The Clone Wars, which partially exists to fill in the gaps between AOTC and ROTS.

I mean, was there a time where, for example, Anakin prioritized saving Ahsoka over a bunch of people in a building, leaving Mace to do it himself?

Still, we get moments between them, and they're not all negative:

They have fun banter, at times, right? But then we hear Dave Filoni say that Mace had an issue with Anakin from day one.

"You see, Mace Windu’s the guy that tells little Anakin ‘no, he will not be trained’. You cut to Anakin and he’s like, ‘What??’ There’s this look on Anakin’s face like, 'I’m gonna remember that, you’re a negative, why are you doing that?’ So you have to look at it, the Jedi are - though they mean really well for Anakin – they’re always telling him 'no’. They’re always saying 'no, you’ll be expelled, you’ll have to leave the Jedi Order’. [...] So when you get to that point-- all these things I’m talking about get you to that point where Palpatine’s on the ground and Mace Windu has a lightsaber at his throat and he’s saying “he’s the traitor”. So Anakin’s there and he’s choosing between the guy that’s always told him “no” - that, while he respects him and [Mace’s] not a mentor, but he’s a fellow Jedi - and the father figure [of Palpatine] who holds the key possibly to immortality and you saving this person you love in Padmé." - Dave Filoni, Rebel Force Radio, Star Wars Fan Days III, 2009

So... I honestly don't know who to listen to.

If we're meant to see Mace as "negative toward Anakin" then the episodes failed to convey that properly.

If we're not, then why is Dave Filoni saying the above?

Same thing goes for the recently-published novel Brotherhood, written by Mike Chen.

Like, I want to give the novel the benefit of the doubt and say "yeah, but we're only seeing Mace through Anakin's eyes, so of course the opinion is biased and exaggerated." But then I hear Mike Chen say stuff like this...

"And, like, [Anakin’s] constantly pulled in every direction and the finally, when you go from that to Revenge of the Sith where it’s like “hey, my wife is going to die unless I listen to my cool uncle, who has never been mean to me” and then you have Mace Windu who’s like “TAKE A SEAT, SKYWALKER!” y’know, it’s like who’re you gonna listen to? It really makes sense, it feels very organic, from that perspective." - Mike Chen, Beyond the Blast Doors, 2021

... and it's clear my arguing "unreliable narration" would just be me expressing a headcanon.

2. "Mace represents everything wrong with the Jedi"

Then, another argument I heard once is that he embodies everything wrong with the Jedi Order. As said in this comment here:

Wow, that's a whole bunch of hate hurled in Mace's direction.

Also inaccurate.

The fact is, Mace is - like most Jedi - a space shaolin/buddhist monk. He's incredibly wise and spiritual as heck. But when it comes to it, he's a no-bullshit kind of guy, especially when considering the Jedi being forced into a war.

As Samuel L. Jackson put its:

"Mace is a voice of reason. He thinks before he speaks. He's pretty calculating, mostly even-tempered, and he's not to be trifled with. He knows that the war is coming and he has a pretty good idea who is behind it. [...] Mace Windu has known Obi-Wan Kenobi for a very long time. Mace was a contemporary of Qui-Gon Jinn. He understood his faults and admired his qualities and can see that Obi-Wan has taken on some of Qui-Gon's strongheadedness by wanting to train Anakin Skywalker." - Samuel L. Jackson, as reported in Star Wars Insider: The Skywalker Saga Collector’s Edition, 2021

That doesn't mean Mace isn't compassionate or empathetic. On the contrary:

Here’s Mace taking down a criminal who was using child soldiers.

See that teenager who shoots at him in the final panels? At the end of the comic, he tries to have her freed.

Then, here’s Mace going out of his way to save a Twi'lek girl.

And this post, right here, lists a ton of examples of Mace putting others before himself in The Clone Wars.

Oh, you wanna go Legends? Let's go Legends.

Here’s Mace before and after saving an old lady from thugs.

Here’s Mace being kind to a starving Sith worshipper who tried to start a mob to kill them, choosing talk and mercy over violence.

Here's Mace praising Anakin!

One time, Obi-Wan almost died on a mission. Mace stayed by Anakin's side the whole time Obi-Wan was undergoing surgery.

Here’s Mace calmly agreeing to disagree with a Jedi who thinks the Order shouldn’t have joined the Clone War.

Hell, here’s Mace being nice to animals.

Mace Windu embodies everything right about the Jedi Order.

3. Misc "arguments"...

A number of silly, small things I hear sometimes:

"Oh he called her 'citizen' what an asshole!" He refers to her the same way she referred to herself. Ahsoka's been gone for months she doesn't have context and letting her into the fold in that particular instant would spell disaster. It's not personal, Mace even gives her a respectful nod before the call ends.

Then there's:

"Mace never apologized for the way the Council treated Ahsoka!" Because Plo Koon apologized on behalf of the whole Council.

“You have OUR most humble Ahsoka.” Plural. He’s speaking for all of them, nobody contradicts him, thus showing they agree. It’s a 22-minute TCW episode, they’re not gonna have each Council member apologize individually. It’s common sense. I'd also hazard that the "this was your real trial" line lingered from the first draft of the script as originally, Ahsoka didn't leave the Order at the end of "The Wrong Jedi" and prolly got promoted to Jedi Knight.

Also:

"Mace Windu once believed himself to be the Chosen One, he was jealous of Anakin!"

Uh... I'm just gonna post this one again...

Then there's this one I read which just made me cringe:

*sigh*

Yeah that TOTALLY sounds like something Mace “You Can’t Kill The Zillo Beast 'Cause It’s An Innocent Living Creature” Windu would do.

Intentionally leading his Jedi brothers to slaughter is so typical Mace “Get The Men To Safety While I Risk My Life For Them” Windu behavior.

So, why do some fans not like him?

I honestly dunno.

The only other reason I can think of (like the other Jedi, he's not as flawed as Anakin, some see him and the Jedi as holier than thou, he's nothing like Luke Skywalker) is explored more in detail here:

#Mace Windu #Samuel L. Jackson #In Defense of the Jedi #Jedi Order #Jedi Positivity #jedi order #meta #anakin skywalker #star wars #Master Windu #long post #this one was a long time coming!

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