#e/riel don't interact
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E/riels talk about their ship having 4 books of development. For me, it was clear that Moriel was supposed to be endgame until she decided to change Mor sexuality. It was never supposed to be Azriel and Elain.
In ACOSF, we are introduced to Gwyn, who is very similar to Azriel, and by the end, she became a Carynthian, his equal.
Sjm literally retcon the events of Sangravah, making sure that Azriel is in it.
With all that information and more, E/riels have the courage to gaslight us when we say that Gwynriel will be endgame.
And that's what you missed on Glee.
#pro gwynriel#antie/riel#anti e/riel#antielriel#e/riel don't interact#gwynriel#azriel x gwyn#gwyn x azriel#gwynriel supremacy
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Addressing the inconsistencies of the behavior of Azriel's shadows
One of my biggest pet peeves in this fandom is when people take a line from 3-4 books ago and then say it trumps more recent canon.
And e/riels are the biggest culprits of this. They claim that Azriel's shadows disappearing is a good thing, and then reference ACOMAF. Now it's a huge possibility that SJM considered Moriel endgame back then, so once upon a time she probably did intend his shadows disappearing as a positive thing.
But this information is no longer relevant. Truthfully, SJM is not a perfect writer, she's not always consistent, and she has clearly not planned out certain things long-term. Things change and we as readers need to adjust our expectations accordingly.
We are presented new information in ACOSF, specifically in the bonus chapter. Azriel confirms that his shadows are his companions and will always be with him, we then see their interactions with two separate characters. It's a clear juxtaposition. They skitter back and vanish around Elain, they are playful and curious with Gwyn. That's it. That's all we need to see to know where this is going. The connotations alone are extremely obvious.
It's actually such an incredibly simple concept that it blows my mind sometimes that certain people continue to downplay or twist the meaning of this. If one outcome only requires you to read the literal words on the page, and the other outcome requires you to believe a benevolent character is actually evil, which do you think is most likely happening here? Occam's razor is a principle that can be applied to SJM's writing, and almost every single time you're going to be right.
Also, the simple fact that the shadows now disappear around both Mor and Elain is concerning in and of itself, because if e/riel is indeed endgame, then the shadows should not be behaving the same exact way with her as they already do with someone who we know is definitely not going to be Azriel's endgame.
The shadows behave differently around Gwyn in a positive way that they don't with anyone else. That’s it. That's what we are supposed to be paying attention to.
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Bonus Chapters matter.
While they also don't.
What I mean by that is the information presented in them is important only if the author continues on with the information presented in them in the actual book that everyone has access too.
There are still people shocked to find out about the Azriel bonus from SF. Had they missed reading it, they would have never known about the almost kiss with Elain, about the regifting of the necklace, about Gwyn sparking something in Az's chest.
Nesta and Cassian shared a near kiss in the ACOMAF bonus but you know what happened after that?
We are not left questioning whether Cassian has feelings towards Nesta and we don't need the Bonus Chapter to tell us that. You can remain completely unaware that Wings and Embers exists yet still see that Cassian is drawn to her.
The bonus is a fun little extra but it's not really the main source for telling us what we need to know.
Without the bonus, all Elain and Az interactions drop off after Solstice.
Before that, there's the question of whether there might be something between them but Az is still jealous over Mor (which we see in his interaction with Helion) and how he interrupts Nesta's question about Elain to ask about Mor. So while E/riel did share a charged look, there's enough to make us doubt exactly what it is we're seeing and SJM does not give us reason to think it was anything at all considering there are zero clues after Solstice (not on his end or hers).
After Solstice, even if you had missed the Az bonus, you would have seen his banter with Gwyn become more apparent. Where Az has zero mentions of anything with either Elain or Mor related but where he shows admiration and amusement towards Gwyn and where she is sassy towards him "see you tomorrow, Shadowsinger", where Nesta tells Az he's Gwyn's new ribbon.
We don't need the bonus to see that something has shifted for he and Gwyn, it's subtle but it's there.
But there are Elucien clues after the Feyre bonus. In the Feyre bonus, she thinks on how if Elain had been wearing Lucien's gift from last Solstice, nothing would have pierced her. Had you not read that particular bonus you would have still seen that Lucien stares at her with longing on Solstice and how Elain is standing near Helion for the fist time ever on Starfall. Again, subtle clues but there is something there versus nothing for Az and Elain after his bonus.
Elain standing next to her mates unknown father sets the stage for them to have future interactions and where Helion is, Lucien will eventually be.
Sarah mentioning how Cassian and Az will still train the Valkyrie after the Rite sets them up for future interactions.
But there is nothing that sets up Az and Elain for anything in the future once Solstice has passed. She's not connected to the time travel plots (Az and Gwyn are). She's not connected to Illyrian plots (Az and Gwyn are). She's not connected to the Valkyrie (Az and Gwyn are).
Az is not connected to the Trove items (Elain and Lucien are). He's not connected to Koschei (Elain and Lucien are). He's not connected to Vassa (Elain and Lucien are). He's not connected to Spring (Elain and Lucien are).
So again, the bonus chapter matters but it doesn't matter all that much. If SJM does not carry on the information learned in the bonus in the actual book then it's information that isn't going to matter all that much moving forward.
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If Sarah was setting up e/riel’s forbidden romance, then she wouldn’t have Elain & Az have zero interactions after Solstice. At the very least, Nesta or Cassian could’ve noted that those two had lingering gazes on each other or subtle glances when the other isn’t looking, but we got nothing. Having two characters sneak around, off page, where you can’t read the romantic development isn’t Sarah’s writing style. I know some believe that’s what she’s setting up, but I would’ve assumed at the very least we would‘ve been shown Azriel looking longingly at Elain or something, even if it’s the smallest thing. But nothing happened. We got nothing.
"we got nothing." say it again. this is what i don't understand, it's not that there were little interactions between them after his chapter, it's that they were completely absent. they simply don't exist. yet you know who he did have more interactions with afterwards? gwyn. it's not that sjm can't slip them in, it's that she made a choice not to. the thing is we did get az sharing looks with someone and again, it was gwyn. cassian noted them constantly glancing at each other. but you know who sjm did choose to write looking longingly at elain? lucien. sjm could've easily done the same with e/riel but she didn't, hmm i wonder why?
sjm isn't subtle, at all. she doesn't throw these red herrings around nearly as much as people claim. his bonus chapter is such a clear indication to me of his attention shifting from one woman to another. even if he himself doesn't see that yet. there was barely anything there with elain and even then it was more akin to a rebound after loving mor for 500 years than anything having to do with deep feelings
since e/riels love the theme of choice so much, why don't we have a quick recap of the ones sjm made while writing acosf? wrote gwyn into az's bonus chapter for seemingly no reason. wrote gwyn and az having a history. wrote them sneaking peeks at one another. she also wrote elain as still not having rejected her mating bond with lucien. she also made sure to write that lucien is still interested in elain. oh yeah and she also made a note to write characters commenting on how ill suited the night court is for elain. remind me again where she wrote this forbidden romance?
these are all things she decided to write, it wasn't some weird coincidence where she wasn't in control of her body as that side likes to make it seem, she wanted to write things this way. it's as simple as that. and again, as sjm once said: it's obvious
#acotar#azriel#gwyneth berdara#gwynriel#elain archeron#lucien vanserra#elucien#antielriel#anti e/riel#asks#anonymous
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I've been thinking more about Darcy's initial proposal to Elizabeth, and while I've covered this topic extensively in previous posts, it took me some time to delve into how Wickham fits into the equation.
In Darcy's proposal, he cited Elizabeth's family as a barrier, which he was willing to overlook against his better judgement. In response, Elizabeth brought up Wickham and his attitude towards those around him, revealing his prejudice.
It took me a while to piece this together, and it might be a bit of a stretch, but hey, it's all in good fun.
If Elain were in Darcy's role, she might bring up Lucien's family and his ties to the Spring Court as a barrier. On the other hand, if Lucien were in Elizabeth's shoes, he might discuss how Elain treats him and Azriel.
I can envision Elain having a similar reaction to Lucien as Darcy did when Elizabeth brought up Wickham because she, too, felt betrayed by Azriel, much like Darcy did with Wickham. She might wash her hands of him by the time this happens between Lucien and Elain. I wonder if SJM would go so far as to put a bigger final nail in the E/riel coffin before this, more significant (and canon lol) than what Azriel did in the BC, pushing Elain to shift her focus from her crush to her mate.
No, I don't see E/riel happening. Azriel decided to keep away from her even before the Solstice, and I believe his offenses towards her will continue to compound. She will discover that he was the main voice against her searching for the trove, and if she was willing to stand up for herself to Nesta, her desire to do more for the IC will overshadow any lingering feelings she has towards him.
She kept her engagement ring for months. She returned the necklace within hours.
I will be screaming if Elain reacted like this when Lucien brings up Azriel’s name
I do believe there are complexities that come with being Lucien's mate, and it would be a disservice if SJM doesn't provide space for Elain to acknowledge Lucien's part in her transformation into fae. This could also serve as an explanation to satisfy the skeptics. We know he had nothing to do with it; Feyre knows he had nothing to do with it; Rhys knows he had nothing to do with it. But this does remain unresolved as all we received was one line where Lucien acknowledges his part of wrong-doing.
However, this is something Lucien can't change, just like how Elizabeth can't change how her family behaves. This is something that Elain, like Darcy, would have to make peace with.
Lucien's arguments towards Elain would be about Azriel, akin to Wickham, though the reasons would be different. Whatever they had discussed in private after their reunion following Hybern's war would likely be the main focal point. Immediately after their cute reunion, we find out that Elain and Lucien have tense interactions, but she still keeps their mating bond in limbo.
Given how frequently Lucien addresses behavior towards those around him, it seems likely that he will do the same with Elain. Two years of silent treatment, combined with the sudden expectation of happiness when she accepts their bond, could prompt Lucien to confront Elain about her actions.
Elizabeth never had a specific issue with Wickham, but she did criticize how Darcy treated him, along with other mistreatments committed by Darcy against him. Similarly, Lucien might not inherently have a problem with Azriel, but he strongly values honesty. If Elain wasn't upfront with him about her feelings towards Azriel, addressing this lack of transparency could be crucial for them to overcome any issues in their relationship.
It's not necessarily about Lucien disapproving of Elain's feelings for Azriel; rather, it's about how her actions affected him. After Graysen, Azriel was the only one towards whom Lucien showed a territorial trait, even though he had not fully acted on it. I wonder if Lucien will call out that he had given her plenty of space and opportunity to reject their bond, and we can finally have a canon answer as to why it took her two years to respond.
I believe Lucien will start to open his eyes to who Elain really is, now that she's becoming more accepting of her circumstances, similar to how Elizabeth began to look past Darcy's awkwardness. Elain, in turn, would start to see Lucien's impact on those around him, especially in Spring, where he is leading rebuilding efforts, and in Autumn, where he had spent the most time among the lesser fae.
Azriel as Wickham is something they dealt with separately. Interestingly, pre-confession Wickham is what Lucien will bring up, but Lydia-arc-Wickham is what Lucien will deal with later in the series.
I admit, I am still unsure about what SJM will choose to do after this revelation, as it remains up in the air.
SJM used Tamlin for Feysand and Eris for Nessian, so it's not out of reach to assume she'll use Azriel for Elucien.
There are some possibilities: she can opt to use Azriel the same way Wickham was used to cement Elizabeth's feelings towards Darcy, but this time, it would be Darcy-as-Lucien and Elizabeth-as-Elain. Lucien doing something to Azriel, either to humble him or surprise him while trying to keep it a secret from Elain, which she finds out secondhand and solidifies that Lucien is the ideal person for her.
The other option is that SJM can save that for Az's storyline and just keep the conflict between Elain and Azriel, leaving Azriel to settle his issues towards Lucien in his POV.
It's a conflicting sentiment, as my preference is for the focus to remain on Elucien, but there's a consideration if it helps definitively close the door on the E/riel ship or establish Lucien as her concrete endgame.
In this proposal scene, Elain starts by expressing her willingness to accept the bond, but Lucien rejects it. This rejection prompts Elain to inquire why, leading to a cathartic conversation where both characters finally release their bottled-up feelings.
After this moment, Elain would find herself in the Spring or Autumn Court through one of two scenarios: either she is left in a melancholy mood, and Feyre and Nesta suggest she visit the Spring Court, assuring her that Lucien is away on a mission or Autumn Court where she can "work" to get her mind off things.
Alternatively, in my hopeful scenario, the emotional intensity of their conversation triggers a surge in their bond, leading Elain to experience a significant vision. They realize that her power is intricately connected to Lucien, and if she wishes to reconnect with her powers, she needs to reconnect with him.
#elain x lucien#elucien#pro elucien#elucien headcanon#pride and prejudice elucien#why no... I haven't spent an obscene amount of time thinking about it#although... still a fave pride and prejudice scene#just azriel kickstarting elain's villain era#long post is long
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I have had enough of reading, not so bright, interpretations of the bonus...
The point of that bonus was not the kiss or the necklace, two things people have completely fixated on . The points that are actually relevant to the bonus....
Azriels mental state:
He is lonely and desperate. He is jealous of his two brothers finding their mates .
He is obsessed with the mate bond
He has severe self esteem issues ... of feeling unworthy of love ❤️
His unresolved issues around Mor and the extremely loud silence when asked about her .
Azriels thoughts about Elain and the dynamic...
They had hardly spoken to each other beyond shy glances and brief touches so they basically don't know much about each other its very surface level.
The wrong math... he basically refers to her as the third sister ... so his obsession with the mate bond is his motivation... 3 brothers and 3 sisters( attention on how Rhys reacts to that) (the author wouldn't bring that up if she was going that route how do you miss that yikes!!)
He hasn't really planned for a future with her ... not beyond the fantasies he pleasures himself too ... this is a male who plans the snow ball fight for a year...
His shadows that are a source of his power and a major part of who is ... a shadowsinger .... hide and disappear around Elain.
While he feels attracted to her he also simultaneously feels he is unworthy ... which is sad and pathetic.
Now change of dynamic to Gwyn
While he initially hesitates he actually takes the initiative to stay and engage even though Gwyn gives him an easy way out( the whole Happy Solstice you may go now)
His shadows dance and approach Gwyn , for that to be deliberately added to the bonus while in the first half them disappearing around Elain is highlighted is important . They basically made sure he met Gwyn in the training ring ... the shadows perhaps know things ✨️
Gwyn surprises him , prods and pokes and asks him unexpected questions. She seems unaffected about him being a "shadowsinger" .
He feels calm after a brief interaction with her ... something in him settles ... very typical mate language
His shadows calm down and like her presence .... his shadows lounged on his wings as though content to watch them both interact.
He feels a spark in his chest when interacting about Gwyn with clotho... again very typical mate language
He can picture how Gwyns eyes would light up .... he has perhaps observed her more than he realises . He buries that image where it glows quietly in his chest... again typical mate language .
Gwyn and Az aren't in love ... That's ridiculous and it would be really shallow to have Gwyn blushing around Az ... they barely know each other ... isn't that the shallow problem with E*riel?
The purpose of the bonus was Azriels thoughts and how his story is moving .... because the next book is Azriels.... it was a preview of his book ... his thoughts his current mental state .... How does one miss that??????
#gwynriel#gwyneth berdara#pro gwynriel#gwyn acosf#acotar#gwyn x azriel#azriel shadowsinger#azriel#post acosf#acosf theory#pro gwyneth berdara#pro azriel#anti e/riel
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TW:SA Gwynriel
This topic gets brought up every few months and while I don't expect it to stop anytime soon, even after the next book is released, I want to talk about it for a minute, specifically in relation to the most recent post that's circulating.
If you haven't seen it, the poster claims to be a 'licensed professional' and is giving their 'professional' opinion on SA trauma recovery in regards to ACOTAR ships. This person makes it very clear they are an e/riel, and as evidenced by their own comments on the post, found Gwyn to be 'sus' even after reading ACOSF multiple times....
For a moment, let's set aside a few points:
The fact that labeling an SA survivor (real or not) as evil or manipulative is very harmful to readers that are actual SA survivors
The fact that this never seems to get brought up in regards to Rhys, Lucien, or Nesta who were all canonically SA'd - only Gwyn
The fact that a 'professional' opinion given by a clearly biased party isn't very reliable
I find it galling that a supposed professional who claims to work 'extensively' with trauma survivors, couldn't comprehend why Gwyn would feel responsible for her sister's death, as if survivor's guilt is not a majorly common response to that sort of event
Let's focus on the main point, which is that this person seems to be insinuating that trauma responses and recovery are universal, even after specifically stating they don't think this is the case...
---
No one asked, or is owed it, but I'm going to talk about my own experience a little here, for context. You don't need the details, other than I'm a walking statistic. SA'd twice before the age of 25. The experiences were not particularly violent. One involved heavy doses of alcohol. Once was by a stranger, the other by someone I knew.
Now, I know the common belief is that people who experience sexual trauma usually develop an aversion to touch, specifically sexual touch, and by specific genders. This may be true for a lot of people, I certainly know women (and men) who this is true for. Some people, however, like me, are the opposite. I dissociated heavily from my experiences and had no aversion to touch or sex (one reason I related to Nesta so much).
I'm not saying this is a healthy coping mechanism- it absolutely is not. I was so desperate to prove I wasn't a victim, I actively harmed myself by putting myself in dangerous situations in seeking out intimacy because I (mistakenly) thought I was in control. It wasn't until I finally began seeing a therapist that I realized how harmful this was.
Even still, I never developed an aversion to touch or sex, I just became more mindful of my choices. Like many SA survivors, I turned to BDSM. When done properly (I'm looking at you 50 shades... 🙄) with people who actually know what they're doing, it can be very therapeutic for survivors of SA because it puts the control in your hands.
Again, I will spare you the details because you don't need them. That's not the point of sharing this. It's to point out- once again- that not everyone handles trauma the same.
The truth of the matter is, we don't actually know how Gwyn feels about any of this. Other than the little bit she tells Nesta and Emerie during the Blood Rite- which mostly amounted to 'my choice was taken from me in a violent way and I'm angry about it- she never speaks about her thoughts or feelings regarding that night, or men/sex in general, and we have not seen her POV.
The only men we know she's interacted with since that night are the bat boys. Other than her initial encounter with the Illyrians during the Blood Rite, she mostly keeps her distance from them and actually remains mostly level headed throughout the whole ordeal, even trying to sacrifice herself (knowing what will likely happen to her) to allow Nesta and Emerie to get away after she's shot at the bridge.
She's never really uncomfortable around Cassian or Azriel, maybe a little wary at first, but she warms to both in no time and is in fact a big reason why other priestesses eventual join. By the end she is quite comfortable with them both. Even with Rhys she just blushes (I know I've seen people try to use this as a 'gotcha' like she can't be into Az when she's attracted to his brother *groan* Rhys is hot, we know this, and personally, I think it's more celebrity shock like 'holy shit that's the High Lord of the Night Court' than a crush lol) And she wasn't all that bothered by having the men watch them while they did the Blood Rite qualifier, even after being warned. She literally shrugs it off.
She shows no discomfort when Emerie and Nesta discuss sex and even participates in the conversation which doesn't exactly scream to me that she'd uninterested in sex.
They like to point out that Gwyn went back to the library at the end of the book. This was her home for the last two years after her's had been desecrated (remember it wasn't just about what happened to her. Her sister and many of the people she knew in the temple were killed in front of her. There are several bad memories associated with it now, beyond her SA), and it's where she's been healing. It's perfectly reasonable she'd be wary about leaving, it's all she knows and she has no other home currently. Not to mention that she's said herself she doesn't want to stay in the library her whole life and she's already left it once. Granted, immediately after she left, she was thrown into yet another traumatic event so again, it's perfectly reasonable she'd be wary. It's unreasonable to think she'll never leave or that it will take a very long time before she's ready, she's already close to it, just needs a little more time to process what literally just happened to her.
Gwyn has also shown an interest in sex so it's not unreasonable to think she might try again in the near future. This is the sort of narrative we should be encouraging, that SA survivors are capable, and deserve to be able to move on and have normal, healthy lives. Not every SA survivor may want that but the vast majority do.
To say, as a professional, that an trauma survivor should be on any sort of timeline in terms of their recovery is irresponsible. It puts undue pressure on the survivor. They may take longer and feel something it wrong with them, or they may not feel they need as long and again, feel something is wrong with them.
It is irresponsible, as a professional to insinuate that trauma survivors should display specific traits or symptoms (such as anxiety or touch aversion) when everyone responds to trauma differently. Some develop severe disorders like anxiety and some function mostly normal aside from maybe the occasional episode. They may dissociate completely like I did.
Trying to put all survivors into the same box is a disservice to them all. Period. And we should not be using these sorts of opinions as basis for proving or disproving ships... let's be serious please and remember we're talking to real people about fictional people...
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hi.
not sure about you but sometimes i feel all these back and forth arguments from the shipwar is silly. a point made about one ship can easily be applied to another and so forth. people don't like to admit it but a lot of these ships (elriel, vassien, elucien and gywnriel) have a lot in common.
from your perspective what do you think makes elucien more likely than elriel? both couples don't really know each other and all of them have issues to work through. same with gywnriel and vassien. both don't have much onpage interaction but what makes gywnriel more likely than vassien in her eyes?
Hello!
Yes, that’s kind of life, if we think hard enough we can find a connection to most situations. I do think it depends on what one is arguing about though because these ships aren’t carbon copies of each other. If everyone would just focus on their own fandoms and leave others alone, no one would have to argue🙃 that I do find silly…
I agree that on one level e/riel, elucien and gwynriel are on a pretty even playing field because none of them interact much or truly know each other, disagree that vuci*n should even be factored in because there is no romantic context for them.
When you say “in her eyes”, you mean SJM? No way to know what she thinks, but I sure can tell you some of what makes me unconcerned with the possibility of elucien or gwynriel not being endgame.
SJM is a mates author, this is even more clear since hosab. Nessian being mates was unnecessary to the story yet she made them mates anyway. Until SJM gives us a main couple that breaks the pattern, I’m going assume that mates are still very important in her worlds and a signifier of endgame.
That’s kind of all I need for elucien but a couple others things stood out to me too: the retcon of Lucien being Helion’s son is a big mc/mc adjacent storyline. Him having to deal with Graysen and even his friendship with Vassa(who Elain had visions about) connects him to Elain. Both of their associations with Spring and that there are problems there(ok this one might be wishful thinking). The fact that Elain and Lucien have both been sidelined and have such a strained relationship just screams “we have a book full of development coming”. Sarah said they would have “tension, healing and growth”. If they got along, I’d be worried.
Gwynriel was less obvious but still there in acosf. SJM giving the backstory that Azriel saved Gwyn added nothing to Nesta’s story. Hybern’s soldiers destroyed several places, Azriel didn’t have to be there but he was, gee I wonder why? Gwyn having that brazen sass with the stoic shadowsinger was another thing that made me go “huh”. The little sections referencing Gwyn watching Azriel or Azriel leaving to go over dagger handling, etc: more things that weren’t needed for Nesta’s story or could have been written differently. The way that there was more of a focus on Gwyn than other side characters(we know more about what goes on in Gwyn’s mind than Elain’s right now).
Honestly though the biggest example that shows gwynriel is more likely(and therefore elucien too) is Azriel’s chapter. No, bonus chapters have no effect on the books but Azriel’s chapter was a giant freaking neon sign from Sarah telling us where these relationships are heading. Azriel’s mind told us everything we needed to know. He’s been bottling up his anger and jealousy. He wants a mate, thinks the third sister should be his because of his brothers, he feels unclean and unworthy of Elain. He hasn’t thought about a future, just pleasure with her. Azriel’s not thinking rationally. We get to the Gwyn scene and it’s light and simple, a little funny, Azriel starts feeling better, his head is clearing. He finds himself thinking of making Gwyn happy. It ends with mate language! There is a ginormous contrast between the two halves of Azriel’s chapter and honestly the way SJM went about writing it was some of her best work imo.
Sooo this was my very long way of saying that sure, when it comes down to interactions they’re all equal, but looking beyond that is where people form their opinions.
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lele!
I saw the ask you answered a few days back about Feysand and Elriel being real similar, and so I was wondering if you see gwynriel as having the same problem at all? Mostly in terms of aesthetics, considering both seem to have a similar light/dark aesthetic
Hello! Sorry this response is probably a mess 🤣
(Here is the post we are talking about, for anyone reading this hehe)
So re: the light/dark aesthetic, I agreed with the previous anon that the feysand and e*riel stories would be too similar, based on what people suppose the one story would look like. But, I don't think the aesthetic is in reality similar. IMO it's just that people are taking a lot of creative liberties with Elain's character, given that we have never had her POV and we arguably know less about her than many other characters.
Regarding the art, we just honestly don't know enough about Elain to set her apart from the other sisters, visually. In that post I mentioned facial expressions, body language, clothing, objects, scenery or context. When I see art of Feyre or Nesta, I know it's art of them because I recognize Nesta's facial expression as representing the way that Nesta looks at the world, or Feyre's creativity, or the way Feyre embraces the dark. This is why I detest the whole "flower" thing with Elain. It's a crutch until we learn more about her personality. There's a reason that "flowers" are nowhere to be seen on the prompt list for elucien week 😂
So yeah anyway, I think that Feyre painting the night sky on her dresser drawer and thinking about different types of darkness, and feeling much more comfortable in the NC than in Spring lean more towards her not really "having" the light aesthetic. She's been killing to survive since she was 14, and Rhys says she is a huntress, his salvation.
Elain isn't "light" either; she needs light, she isn't light personified though. That would be her mate. The similarities, to me, are all about the plot for e*riel being too similar to what feysand have already had. Like anon pointed out the Hades/Persephone thing that... already belongs to feysand. The anon also said this, which yeah I see it too: "Elain does the same job as Azriel. Azriel saves her from the "abuser" Lucien and Azriel will let her choose, she finds her voice, and then Elain finds out Azriel is her actual mate, etc…" which would lead to their interactions being similar.
Okay but you asked about gwynriel asldjaklsjdakd
I think that gwynriel are more dark/light aesthetic than either feysand or e*riel, especially if it ends up being a shadowsinger/lightsinger thing (*finger guns* iykyk). I think that gwynriel would also be a very different relationship from feysand, or nessian, or elucien, because there is more emphasis on there being mutual healing, but where the guy needs a wake-up call. Rhys had trauma, Cassian had insecurities, but Az needs to go on a whole journey where he heals and reconciles with his past and his feelings towards his family. (NOT that he has to say a word to anyone who abused him, but I can see people willfully misinterpreting this anyway so why am I bothering. For my stalkers, I suppose. Hey besties!)
Feyre is pragmatic and cautious. Rhys is also pragmatic and can be cautious because his actions have implications for his whole court. They are both self-sacrificial and have served as the heads of their respective households before they were ready to do so.
Az has an intense sense of responsibility (indebtedness, even) coupled with a need for control and tbh love. Imo he also has a fascination with people who are very unlike him - see: The Morrigan. Gwyn is plucky, optimistic, curious, and determined. If you want a light/dark or grumpy/sunshine aesthetic, it's gwynriel. But either way, their plot/journey looks very different from any of the three canon ships, in addition to having an "aesthetic" that doesn't match the others. (elucien = mates = canon in sjm world)
To finish this rambly ramble up, I basically wouldn't hang my hat on a coatrack made of aesthetics. There are a lot more things that make a fictional ship appealing to readers (and more likely in canon), and aesthetics are just one piece of a complex puzzle!
#acotar#feysand#gwynriel#nessian#elucien#antielriel#ask#anon#did I have a point here#idk#someone find it for me help
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I have to say, I'm mostly an elriel, but I enjoy elucien too because I'm 100% an Elain stan and I'll take any content about her done by someone who loves her (like you and everyone making content for elucien week). It drives me kinda crazy to see other elriels say that people who ship elucien don't like elain, because I have honestly never ever seen that. (Feel free not to answer if you don't wanna get into a shipwar mess)
It's a bummer because I end up having to decide if I'm going to purge all e/riels following me or risk getting hate. And for a really, really long time if I put anything in the elain archeron tag, I'd get hate, too. I have like, 50 people blocked I've probably never interacted with (to my knowledge) so I can go back in her tag and I think thats absurd.
It's frustrating because before I had a lot of followers, I did have more multi-shippers following me and now that I'm over 1k, if I see e/riels following, I typically just block and assume bad intentions.
And what's WILD is that like, I would LOVE to tag-team against the anti's. Being a bitch online is like one of my top 10 hobbies. I see the most broke, stupid ass shit about Elain and I'm like, we could unite under this banner but too many have made liking Elain into a social justice cause instead of fighting our true enemy which is people who think Tamlin is her mate (SORRY IM SORRY BUT THAT THEORY IS MY VILLAIN ORIGIN STORY). I want what you want- Elain to be the protag and get the dicking down she deserves (and see Graysen die). Like the only thing we disagree on is who is doing the dicking.
I've got Nessians and Neris's in my fucking tags 24/7 but I can't have e/riels? BROKE.
#c'mon#we could take the evil that is reddit down#and all those STUPID FUCKING TIKTOKS#like whatever ship whatever you like#but the irrational anger i feel#is just#unmatched#anti e/riel.#but oh#imagine if it wasnt#ANYWAY#back to beast!lucien#for day 7
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I was thinking about Gwynriel's book. We know that having Azriel's pov will be heartbroken. He has a very traumatic past.
For me, as a survivor, Gwyn's pov is going to be even harder to read. The events of Sangravah were very hard to read in ACOSF. We are going to see even more how those events affected her life.
I know that I will need a long therapy session after reading this book.
#gwynriel book#azriel's book#pro gwynriel#pro azriel#pro gwyn berdara#pro gwyn#pro gwyneth berdara#gwyn acotar#gwyn berdara#gwyneth berdara#gwynriel#antie/riel#anti e/riel#e/riel don't interact#azriel acotar#acotar 5#acotar#a court of thorns and roses#sarah j maas#azriel
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I'm going to try to make this the last post where I address this but I'm starting to get frustrated with the narrative that Elucien's should just accept Az and hold in him high regard because "we're on the same side".
Yes, Elucien's and Gwynriel's both share a common goal of being Anti E/riels and we often create posts both sides like because of it. I think it's very clear to both groups that Az with Elain is a ship that exhibits major red flags.
But that's not the reason I ship Elucien, just because Az is bad for Elain so Lucien wins by default.
I actually like Elain and Lucien as individual characters. I think they'll be fantastic together but standing alone I still love them.
Just because I see that Az is setup to be healthier with Gwyn, that does not make up the sum total of his character. His interactions with Gwyn or Nesta are minimal compared to how he is with everyone else.
I think it's safe to say that a good number of Gwynriels support Elucien but don't necessarily like Elain. I joined a FB group that was Pro Gwynriel / Pro Elucien and ended up leaving for the vitriol that was spit Elain's way. It did not feel like a safe place to ship Elucien when I was constantly seeing others drag her.
And I think some in the fandom forget that Elucien's have witnessed this behavior for YEARS, even outside of E/riels. Some Gwynriels have thought nothing of the Elain slander or dislike they participated in and Elucien's have had to sit and just accept it.
Though this is a character SJM herself created and said shares her real life energy. Though this is a character SJM spoke of having a book long before Az was ever discussed as possibly getting his own, we were still forced to listen to her character be torn apart.
And now the Az getting a book chatter has increased tenfold and some Elucien's have started to speak out against Az's behavior.
SJM wrote it so that neither Elain or Lucien has ever said anything negative about Gwyn or Az.
But she did write Az as being problematic towards both Elain and Lucien.
If Elain and Lucien are someone's favorite ship and they genuinely have love for their characters, do Az stans TRULY believe we're supposed to show Az the same respect we do for Lucien?
When Az said Lucien wasn't good enough for Elain?
When Az said Elain couldn't handle the darkness of the Trove?
When Az didn't care whether Lucien murdered Graysen or when Az was fine being arrogant over defeating Lucien in the Blood Duel?
Please take the time to consider why Az's behavior towards Nesta or even Gwyn doesn't erase away Az's past behavior towards everyone else for some of us? Towards his own High Lady? The way he acts towards Helion? Please understand why not all Eluciens would care to see Az getting his own HEA with a female he JUST met and has shown no romantic inclination towards yet as he's fixated on Mor and Elain while Lucien continues to suffer with his unfulfilled bond and Az believes Lucien isn't good enough for her anyway.
I understand why Az stans are pumped for his book but please do not act like we should all be on the same side just because we are both Anti E/riels. Don't act like we're suddenly trouble makers because we're calling Az out for the wrongs we'd like to see righted and for what would be justice for Lucien's character, if Az did have to see him happy with his own mate before Az was granted the gift of his own.
Az could get his own book next and Elucien's will have to deal with it but stop acting like Elucien's who have been waiting for their story to be told since 2016 and whose favorites are constantly being belittled within the fandom (Lucien from E/riels and Elain from some Gwynriels) aren't well within their rights to be a little irritated by Az at this point.
This isn't even an Anti Azriel post because I realize that he will be redeemed and get his HEA. But let's not pretend there's not valid things he needs to atone for.
For us, it's not just about proving E/riels wrong but for Lucien's suffering to finally come to an end. For the Elain haters to finally reconsider.
After nearly a decade, you'd think there'd be a little more understanding for Elucien's and why they're not mooning over the possibility of an Az book being the next book.
#anti e/riel#lucien vanserra#elain archeron#pro elucien#pro elain archeron#pro lucien vanserra#elucien#Anti Azriel
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Okay so I have like no real stake in this game of who the next couple is going to be but like how does one ignore that line in which az basically compare gwyns smile to a treasure you need to protect? Like to me that chapter never needed to see the light of day and that line especially didn’t have to be written so softly and sweetly so why are people so upset or surprised at the idea of these two being a thing? In one chapter she’s already written them better than the other two (though I guess that is a personal opinion).
this exactly. there was no reason for sjm to a) include gwyn in that chapter at all and b) make all of az's interactions with her make him feel lighter and happier. like it's insane that some people don't see the tone shift in that chapter, when he was with elain it was dark and heavy and his self loathing was suffocating but with gwyn... he was light and relaxed and at ease and joking with her. he wasn't thinking about his insecurities at all, he was just enjoying being with her
and it doesn't even stop there! that chapter takes place during solstice, immediately after this the gwynriel interactions pick up in the actual book and e/riel dies off and i'm not even exaggerating there. there's zero interactions between elain and az after that night, if sjm were setting up this forbidden romance wouldn't there continue to be something? like it's so clear to me that i sometimes think maybe i'm the crazy one for not seeing what the other side is talking about
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Isn't it hilarious that E/riels claim misogyny at gwynriels and go on to say that the only reason we dislike Elain is because she likes to garden.
WHICH ISN'T EVEN THE CASE
I personally grew a little indifferent towards Elain because of some of her actions in book 1.
The moving her fingers away from Feyre as if scared the dust would get on her.
The crooning sympathies and going behind Nesta when Nesta was being mean to Feyre.
The sharp voice she used with Feyre after Feyre came home.
Her love for gardening has little TO NOTHING TO DO WITH MY INDIFFERNCE TOWARDS HER.
Do I greatly admire the line-
"I don't belong to anyone...but my heart belongs to you"
Hell yes.
Do I admire her for stabbing the king of Hybern?
HECK YEAH.
But do I LOVE her character?-
I don't know.
I do, however, think that she has great potential.
OH -
And believe it or not. SOME OF US REALLY LIKE ELAIN.
In conclusion- Just because someone doesn't ship her with Az doesn't mean they dislike her.
Almost every argument E/riel anons make ( I do NOT have it in me to go through EVERY SINGLE ONE. My poor hands just aren't made for excessive typing)
1) 'If az is so toxic for Elain why do you ship him with Gwyn?'
...*sigh*
Just go back to the book and re-read it.
BUT,
If you really want to be spoon fed
--We (or at least the most of us) much rather have gwynriel happen AFTER Az navigates through his issues
-- He doesn't treat Gwyn like a prize to be won
-- He didn't go behind Gwyn and say- she shouldn't take part in the blood rite because it's too dangerous
--His thought process isn't strictly limited to screwing around her
--He actually seems to know something about her
2) 'Making her glow like the sun at dawn as opposed to ' A thing of secret lovely beauty'
Making her glow...reference to outward beauty.
A thing of....IS NOT ONLY A REFERENCE TO HER OUTWARD BEAUTY.
They are not the same thing.
Just go by the necklace description if you really want to argue.
3) Gwyn can't be in a relationship with Az because of her trauma
*sigh* I-
4) Gwyn is faking her SA
Yeah, I'm not even gonna bother with this.
5) Gwyn is a LiGhTsInGEr
No, just no.
6) He umm...thoughts, revolve around needs
Too many wants and needs.
I don't know about y'all- but this came RIGHT after he thought of how he was gonna win the snowball fight AND his shadows asked him to sleep.
I saw the 'wants and needs' as wanting and needing the relationship his brothers had.
7) He said- Give it to any priestess
IT'S RIGHT THERE FOR YOU TO READ.
READ.
8) He doesn't even consider her a friend-
but...
THERE'S A BUT
9)The reaction that should've happened with Elain if he truly DID love elain
10) THEY HAD 4 BOOKS OF DEVELOPMENT-
And yet
BONUS
----A LOT of people seem to forgot that
THIS SCENE COMES AFTER THE SNOWBALL FIGHT.
So the shitty mood got better after the Elain interaction.
The elain* Az* Gwyn interaction scene took place BEFORE the snowball fight.
Gwyn being the reason Az's mood takes a sudden change (PART 1- BEFORE SNOWBALL FIGHT)
Moody Az-
Moody Az, who?
Gwyn being the reason his mood is cured (AGAIN, after snowball fight)
Moody, grumbling Az-
To consciously erasing the slight smile it brought to his face-
#WHY IS THIS SO LONG??#gwynriel#It's a lot to take in#pro gwynriel#Can you actually believe I wrote that#cheers to the remaining braincells for working together#I should be making more productive use of my time
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Thank you for your response (re: Gwyn allegedly having luring powers). Sometimes I think others have been reading different books. In other media, I’ve felt pretty good about being able to figure out endgame couples & twists, but they had me thinking I’d missed something important. I don’t understand their level of hatred toward Gwyn just because there’s another “ship” option in the fandom. In the text, she’s a sweet person who is continuing to overcome trauma. Nothing about her screams evil seductress. I really liked Elain prior to interacting more in online forums, but E/riels are making me want to avoid any type of posts about her due to the nastiness of it all. I just haven’t seen that from people who like other ACOTAR ships. Thanks for your thoughts! Glad I’m not missing glaring parts of the story 😅
I hear you !!! That's one thing that I cannot stand people just writing vile shit about characters that mean something to people just for a ship war. It's an ongoing joke that elriels probably read a different version of the books to all of us ... they clearly don't seem to see the red flags at all.
I have now had more than a few elriels who have admitted to "skimming" through acosf except for the elain parts, which is non-existent in the book ... so you understand why they have no idea about Gwyn or why that character could never be evil.
I won't lie after my last experience with an Elain related post I have my reservations too but its kind of unfair because not all stans are unhinged and crazy . Most Eluciens are pretty good to interact with and we need to remember they are Elain stans too!!!
You are not missing anything.... you are spot on in guessing the end games .... when we have published authors rooting for a ship we know its happening 😊
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I just reread acosf and I’m feeling less confident about Gwynriel. After reading Azriel’s chapter I really saw that as the nail in the e*riel coffin. There were more moments of Azriel and E/ain than I remembered though. If the bonus chapter was really supposed to end them, why put those other parts in the main story? Has me feeling like there will be at least some type of e*riel relationship at some point now.
Hello anon,
They literally interacted two times directly in the book. I counted them, two times. The other times are Azriel's reactions towards Elain scrying the trove or on Solstice or when Nesta insulted her. Of course if Azriel's book is next, his feelings have to be explored just as we did with Feyre when she was conflicted about Tamlin. Not that I am comparing the two but you had Feyre already in love with Tamlin while Az still has to deal with his conflicting feelings for Mor and Elain. That is going to be addressed and resolved.
We had Feyre going from being in love with Tamlin in the beginning of ACOMAF, to her falling for Rhys during the middle of it, and to her being his mate and the High Lady of the Night Court. A lot can happen in one book (700+ pages).
Elr*el aren't written like SJM endgame couples. You barely see them have a full on conversation on-page. Don't tell me it's because it's not their book yet, Nessian had full pages of their interactions in ACOWAR. You didn't question their attraction or feelings to one another, it was obvious unlike 90% of Elr*el scenes that were ambiguous.
I think it adds more to how Azriel's feelings function and showcases his desperation to have someone. Why else do we have moments of him and Gwyn there? Why does Sarah highlight their reactions to one another even if they're not interacting? for me, they fit the endgame mold.
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