#antitony
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*points originally in a tag-dump under another post about* Bucky's goodness + Steve's belief in him
+ the fact that the superserum worked on Bucky is empirical proof of his goodness:
+ this is also why the serum worked on Isaiah Bradley.
+ imagine if Isaiah had been made the Winter Soldier instead
Seriously it's a pretty eye-opening thought exercise to put any other character in Bucky's place and see just how poorly he's treated.
Do people really think Steve would hear about a man who had the same magic ‘only works on good people’ juice as him, tortured and enslaved by Hydra for decades… and then just NOT help him?
imagine if you had Sam saying 'Steve this 'Isaiah' guy he's not someone you save he's someone you stop.'
Nat saying 'Steve I know this matters to you but let the police handle Isaiah someone will arrest you if you interfere, it will inconvenience us all.' (LOL Nat have you met Steve who wrote this)
Sam agreeing, 'maybe Nat's right maybe we shouldn't bother helping Isaiah against the police in case they shoot at us,' and dismissing the fact that Isaiah could do good: ‘1945, maybe.’
When Isaiah was the guy that pulled Steve out of the river?
(And meanwhile the CIA have given police, that Nat and Sam are telling Steve not to interfere with, orders to shoot Isaiah dead on sight? quelle surprise)
Steve would still be arguing that it should be him to bring Isaiah in, since he's least likely to die trying.
He would still have put taking down the Insight helicarriers first, and been reluctant (but willing) to dislocate his arm for that very important reason.
He would still have lifted up the steel beam pinning Isaiah down
(and probably still tried to talk him out of his mind-control, even if he failed.)
imagine if everyone (Sam, Nat, Steve, Sharon, etc.) saw Isaiah -- when mind-controlled -- suddenly demonstrating a drastically different personality
and imagine if Steve and Sam saw Isaiah waking up with amnesia.. then proving his memory of his good, non-WS personality... but Sam was still rude/hostile to Isaiah anyway, insisting he and Steve should not be ‘cool' with him (then telling Isaiah he hates him).
Tony saying 'I don’t care that Isaiah was mind-controlled he killed my mom imma murder him just to spite you for not trusting me not to murder people.'
imagine if you had the therapist telling Isaiah he needs to be monitored by the state to prove he’s not giving into his innate violence, giving him rules to follow like a child, (and he’s pardoned, not exonerated, meaning he had to admit to crimes he wasn’t responsible for in order to get a modicum of freedom) and that it’s bullshit to suggest Isaiah just wants some peace
Ayo telling Isaiah 'you are free' 😌 as he finally escapes his bondage, watching him cry with relief, then: ‘SIKE! we put a booby-trap in ur limb the trust was a lie.’
Sam cracking jokes about Isaiah's trauma, dehumanizing him as a killing machine
taking part in a plot where Isaiah has to pretend to be WS, be sold to another human being, and have rape jokes cracked about him,
but then still being like 'listen Isaiah if you really want to apologise f̶o̶r̶ ̶b̶e̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶l̶a̶v̶e̶ you should just do the work.' 😔
*event horizon voice* DO YOU SEE? DO YOU SEE?? 😬
#long post#tfatws critical#antisambucky#antitfatws#antitony#bucky meta#bucky's serum meta#mcu meta#dat's me#gunna tag this as anti-[those things]#cuz I don't imagine eg. sambucca fans wanna see this on their dash... 🤐#meta#steve meta#stucky meta#steve rogers#bucky barnes#stucky#the writing of sam and bucky#f/ws writers room: LOL dehumanizing the disabled is HILARIOUS!#why would we write a black-lead show empathising w/ a former slave who gets profiled by the police and molested by white women?? 🤔#a mystery for the ages#also I have been recced The Truth limited run of cap comics which feat isaiah...#tho warning: the differences between it + fatws may cause rage palpitations#yet each man queues the thing he loves
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please learn how to engage in discussion without crying and screaming the minute someone mildly disagrees with you. also if you actually studied the theory that you claimed to then you'd know that statements of argumentation can only be deemed to have merit through discussion. In short, your inability to defend your point shows the weakness of your argument and the flaws in your reasoning. strong statements can and do stand up to questioning but obviously yours cannot which is why you start screaming, obfuscating, and throwing ad-hominem attacks instead of actually using the knowledge that you claim to have. also, your refusal to refer to primary sources and belief that you know these characters better than who they've presented themselves to be is textbook projecting. which is fine but don't claim to be a scholar when you clearly can't follow the basic principles of critical thinking, media criticism, or act like an adult. just own up to the fact that you're projecting and accept it instead of trying to convince yourself that you're special or totally understand these characters better than anyone else. For example: your claim that iron man's egotism is a front ignores the fact that he gains absolutely nothing from it, only pushes people away with it, and literally is only rewarded with compassion when he is earnest to those around him. and your analysis of Rodger's self-actualization as Captain America in comparison to Stark's ignores the fact that Captain America is a title that could have been given to anyone but was given to Rodgers on the basis of his merit and Stark literally named himself Ironman, had a whole press conference to announce his super-ego, made a convention for himself and tried to enforce his violent brand of peace-keeping around the world and only considered the consequences of his actions when he was given the opportunity to drag the rest of the team down with him and then abandoned that mission the immediate second that it prevented him from doing what he wanted without asking permission.
Now despite what your clear reactionary tendencies will tell you, I don't hate Stark. I don't even dislike him, I think his story was a fantastic example of a redemption arc and taught a very valuable lesson. But I actually respect the character enough to not warp it into something that it's not.
And my point isn't that Stark is a bad person, it's that he's not perfect and that should be acknowledged. There is a reason why Rodgers can lift the hammer and Stark couldn't and that reason should be recognized and understood. Your analysis displays a lack of that respect and an egregious amount of projecting and I think you're better than that.
So before you write me off as an AntiTony and conclude that you're smarter than everyone else and no one understands that fictional man like you do, take a minute to act like a scholar and actually consider what's being told to you instead of just knocking it away because it tastes bad.
Why, pray tell, should I even try to engage in a discussion with someone, whose first reaction to my post (I won't even dignify it with calling it a response) was to invalidate my intelligence and emotional maturity simply because I dared to be an autistic woman online and said something he disagreed with? And then when he was blocked, he made a new blog, just to write to me, huffing and puffing his big male brain in order to intellectually intimidate me and make me feel stupid and apologize to him for daring to protect my stance?
I won't waste my valuable time for responding to this, even though I feel the urge to go point by point (thanks autism for this) and explain to you exactly why those points are irrelevant to my points.
We agree on Tony's arc. We disagree on Steve's. Done.
I am ending this pointless “fight” here.
#ableism#misogyny#toxic masculinity#people who read my posts know#how I would respond to those points#so I feel I do not have to write it down
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Steve Rogers and Stephen Strange have literally never interacted in the movies so why the fuck do all the Tonky stans who hate Steve use Strange as a prop to voice their opinions????
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Video
youtube
Scott: And you’re not even gonna-
Tony: That’s right Scott. I won’t. Even.
(aka Tony refuses to help bring back HOPEEEE)
This video is my to Tony afterwords. :P Lol!
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don’t let the “tony stark is female coded because he’s sExY” people find out about dick grayson
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Anti-Tony Stark Thought
Based on Tony’s reaction to seeing a brain-washed Bucky kill Tony’s parents, then does this mean that if they had lived and instead were killed by Clint while under Loki’s control (his brainwashing can be discussed at a later time), and Tonya saw it, would he have immediately tried to kill Clint? The fact that all of the evidence points to yes terrifies me.
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I’m gonna see black panther but if tonky stark is in the movie for one second I’m yelling at the screen and walking out
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Things Marvel should do in 2017: - let Steve Rogers take a damn nap - give Bucky Barnes a cat and lots of hugs - let Wanda Maximoff learn to love and accept herself fully, weird powers and all - kick T/ny in the balls - let Sam Wilson be happy / take up the shield - EXPLAIN BUDAPEST - stop making so many damn spiderman reboots - explain how "When you can do the things I can do, but you don't, and people get hurt because of it.... that's on you," sounds in ANY WAY like "We can't be trusted to make the right decisions so we have to hand responsibility to the government." Explain that. - give us more Sam/Bucky interaction - give us more Sam/Bucky/Steve interaction - give us Sam ratting out Steve's reckless behaviour to Bucky - Sharon Carter VS Natasha Romanoff in literally any kind of competition ever
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My biggest pleasure in life is blocking people that try too hard to start drama, is like closing the door in the screaming face of a bigoted asshole. Sorry but I could not care less about your opinion even if I tried.
#I specially love blocking people who feel the need to tag their hate#you can hate a character#but dont fucking tag it you asshole#and this is brought to you thanks to an antiTony person who tagged their hate
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AntiTony tag: Tony Stark is stupid, he doesn't care about people, he funds wars, he is unforgivable, remember the time he designed and sold all those missiles, stupid, he designs and sold weapons!!!, Don't you know he designed and sold weapons???, Why do you like him? He designed and sold weapons, WEAPONSSSSSSS.. oh and his jokes aren't funny btw
Me: *blinks trying to process the broken pretzels that are the cap-stan thought processes*
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Do you see Tony stark as a male version of Peggy Carter? A rich high class brat that won't hesitate to do anything and side with anyone to shine and then act like everyones protective god mother? Or do you think he is at least a bit redeemable because he might have learned bit from his mistakes.
There are certain similarities. Peggy definitely has more in common with the Starks than anyone.
In her show, all her 'friends' are not from the same SEC as her, as with the Starks. In fact, her friends are... employees. Butlers, waitresses, housekeepers... they're almost literally being paid to be friends with her. You see that with Tony, too. His 'friends' are: an air force colonel (when Tony has extremely lucrative military contacts with the air force), his PA (who gets made his CEO and... immediately dumps him), his bodyguard, his robot butler, his other robot servants... and women who benefit financially from sex with him (Christine Everhart and Maya Hansen). In Peggy's case, she's that woman to Howard Stark. 😬 (And Steve).
In AC, the only time you see a person from the same socioeconomic class as Peggy, they're a villain. Similar thing with Tony's villains in IM (Obadiah Stane, Anton Vanko, Justin Hammer, Aldrich Killian...) they're just Other Tonys.
(So you can tell that TPTB have some kind of... English fetish going on and think upper classness is definitely part of her Specialness?)
While Tony has the same 'avoidance of all consequences for his actions' wealthy white privilege that Peggy has, there are certain important differences.
Generally speaking, they share one over-arching trait, which is: if you consider whether or not the world / people around them would be better off if they didn't exist, the answer is yes.
Without Tony, there'd be no Anton Vanko, no Aldrich Killian, no Quentin Beck (which means no Spider-Mans dimensional incursion), no Ultron (which, in another universe, endangered the entire multiverse), no dead Pietro, no dead Sokovians generally (meaning probably no Scarlet Witch, no Vision, no Westview Hex, all the knock-on effects of that?), no Snap. And Hulk or Thor could have put the nuke through the wormhole in A1 (except he wouldn't because it wouldn't have been written into the story at all since Hemsworth doesn't have short man syndrome.)
With no Peggy, Steve's story in CATFA isn't altered (because she didn't matter to the plot or his life at all). But there would be no Winter Soldier programme (since she wouldn't be around to give the man who started it a job at SHIELDra), ergo no Black Widows being mind-controlled either (since that was based on Winter Soldier tech), no continued Hydra (WhatIf confirms all this by showing that a SHIELD founded by everyone else who was there originally, except her, has no Nazis in it.) Ergo no Project Insight. No Winter Soldier means no assassination of Howard Stark, so no Civil War bust up of the Avengers, if Tony still exists (unless Zemo found some other way to effect it). C.1940s her male colleagues in SSR would have handled everything she interfered with in AC, Edwin Jarvis's wife wouldn't have been sterilised by gsw in the uterus, and Daniel Sousa would have settled down with a nice girl (nurse Violet, possibly Skye) and wouldn't have been assassinated by Hydra for whistleblowing in 1955, because there wouldn't be any Hydra.
.
Now the differences:
First, Tony is actually above-average at some of the things he thinks he's good at, so his arrogance based on that is at least partially warranted (which Peggy's conviction of her own competence, moral integrity, etc. isn't).
His estimate of his own ability is debatable, though, since his genius (in the MCU) stems from the Grand American Capitalist Tradition of stealing other peoples' work, doing a minimal amount to hone it, and then claiming all the credit / reaping all the financial reward.
(See: Iron Man suits, AI, E.D.I.T.H., B.A.R.F., Extremis serum, time-travel, etc. Tony's only original creations I can think of in the MCU are his robot-servants and the improvised booby-traps from Iron Man 3. And for all we know these could be rip-offs, too, it's just not mentioned.)
Second, Tony may have got into MIT as a legacy admission (nepotism), but he does actually have at least some of the expertise in a STEM field to warrant a place, which Peggy lacks. (She gets an honorary degree from IIRC Oxford: ie. rewarded for doing no work. And while she claims competence in mathematics (as part of the AC retcon of her non-existent war record), outside of one code-breaking scene, her alleged mathematical ability is never shown. (And in fact Bletchley Park's concession to her leaving it mid-war suggests she wasn't a crucial employee.)
Third, while Tony may have inherited his company without earning it, he does have the necessary brains and thieving habits to create and maintain such a company if he wanted to. He has the appropriate skills; which cannot be said of Peggy in any of her unearned spying jobs.
Peggy is a nepotism baby who couldn't stomach any of the jobs she was handed, one after another, that she kept idiotically choosing to ask for despite her unsuitability for them (which she cannot recognise).
And then she flaked out on these jobs from 'boredom,' even in the middle of a crisis like a world war (failure is never her fault, always the job's, always the mens').
She is a woman who thinks she's a maths whizz and yet has to have the number of sides of a cube explained to her (and as said, Bletchley Park were apparently fine with her quitting mid-war. It's like the opposite of all those 'screenshots of my boss begging me to come back after I quit' sm stories about crucial workers).
She believes she is a brilliant, underappreciated spy, surrounded by inferiors, but cannot spot a single spy when they infiltrate her organisation or home (any one of many, many, many, many occasions: during the war and after).
She's a spy who craves attention.
Whose disguises fail in seconds, and are so inept that she cannot avoid detection by someone who barely knows her, even when photographed from the back.
(Contrast that with actual-spy Natasha, whose disguises are so good not even we realise it's her until she reveals herself!)
Peggy is a woman who thinks she is a sort of hero to other women... but is fine shunting the work which she considers beneath her off onto them... (when she reacts with outrage when men do that exact same thing to her)... or fine with letting her rich male friends get away with chauvinism.
Who interferes to prevent male feminist colleagues from taking steps that would make life better for the Other Girls whom she is Not Like and who Cannot Therefore be allowed to Become Like her.
(Because as long as White Feminist knows Her value, she's the only person that matters!)
It takes a certain level of competence to correctly gage the extent of your own competence, or relative incompetence.
It's the basis of true self-awareness. She lacks that. (Whether Tony also lacks it is... not clear. Maybe he does, too).
Peggy's continued bloody-minded belief that she is, eg. a competent spy and a feminist, directly contrary to the evidence... (because the writers aren't capable of recognising when they've written the exact opposite of what they vaguely intended) ...is the proof that she lacks the qualities necessary to actually be either of those things. And to realise that she is just not physically or temperamentally suited to spying or heroism, at all.
She does share Tony's habit of blaming anything but herself for her problems, though. 🤔
When Peggy shows up hours late for work, eats like a slob at her desk while all the men are doing their paperwork, refuses to do said paperwork (even though that's the job she's been hired for and accepted) as if it's an insult to even ask her, shunts it off onto female underlings, and then does nothing except sabotage her colleagues' work for months, then unilaterally hiring someone who cannot be trusted and who kills 40+ people... (Johann Fennhoff)
She acts as if her male colleagues' lack of enthusiasm about her ability is due to... sexism, only... and not to her being, for example, a lazy, entitled, violently bad-tempered, disastrously-incompetent dickhead and self-outing nepotism hire.
When Tony calls himself a "genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist..." He is at least getting 1/4 of those right... ish.
(Is it genius to commit industrial espionage and rip off the designs of other men including employees, do 12% of the work and then patent them as your own? When it's JARVIS and FRIDAY who do everything for him, actually? Is inheriting generational wealth a flex? Does exchanging sex for favours make you a womaniser or a creepy Weinstein-esque loser? Does making money off cleaning up the very mess you caused, for Rich-White-Guy tax write-offs, count as actual philanthropy? Would an actual philanthropist list philanthropy last, of all those things on the list?)
He does appear to learn from his mistakes for a brief period...
(His Act 1 Fuck Up is usually revealed as a Plot!Coupon necessary for his Act 3 Success; the icing over of the Iron Man suit, the double-reverb attack gained from firing at Rhodey, etc.)
...But that is over-ruled at the beginning of each new Iron Man movie, when the lessons of the last one are ignored to set his personality back at 0. 🙄
In the case of the Avengers movies, though, he doesn't learn at all. Ultron tries to murder everyone, (WhatIf reveals he would have eventually destroyed the entire multiverse.) Hydra tries to enact Project Insight A.I. to kill millions...
And yet years later Tony is still claiming those two as morally correct successes, flawed only because they were made to fail (not because they were horrible fascist ideas to begin with), and redoing Insight as EDITH only giving it to a disastrous teenage boy. 🤦♀️
Peggy, however, is pathologically incapable of learning from mistakes, because that first requires you to acknowledge that you are capable of making mistakes, which is inconceivable to her.
She has herself up on a high pedestal, as the pinnacle of womanhood around which the world and all other women (surely?!) revolve, and cannot be knocked off its axis.
The closest she has ever come to an accurate self-assessment was when Edwin Jarvis called her arrogant and ignorant and she flippantly pretended to agree. (Inadvertently proving him right).
Tony is possibly redeemable because he at least has sensible people around him, telling him he's a fucking idiot.
He does occasionally make the obeisance of saying 'my bad,' even if he doesn't fully comprehend it.
Peggy on the other hand isn't redeemable because she doesn't think she's ever done anything wrong in her life, ever. She thinks she is practically perfect in any way. Atwell thinks she's a good enough sort of woman to fix any man! Like a lot of TERFs and white feminists, she would see the mere suggestion of any wrongdoing on her part as preposterous.
#long post#antitony#antipeggy#antisteggy#cynthia glass#p*ggy meta#mcu critical#steggy is hydra trash party#meta#mcu meta#antitony...ish?#shieldra founders#toAyourQ#dat's me#hey nonny#to quote mcu-peggy in the comics -- implying she is either corrupt or incompetent is 'insane' and will get you IMMEDIATELY attacked by her#unrelated factor: both RDJ and atwell are essentially playing themselves which is why their characters read as fresh and charismatic#but while RDJ has great acting talent on top of that to lend tony's less-RDJ-ish emotional scenes heft and verisimilitude...#atwell is not so talented (reminding me of Jennifer Saunders parodying bad actresses in French & Saunders comedy show)#and so isn't as natural in those moments as she is when peggy is being eg. violent/bossy/white-feminist/condescending etc.#my meta
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I read all your antiTony fics and thank you so much for them, I always wondered why I didn't like Tonky very much and now I know why!
I also really like that you don't actually make Tony OOCly evil (unless to make a point), and he's sometimes capable of changing and feeling remorse. Unlike SOME anti Steve writers...
Have a great day!
Thank you!
Honestly, I probably wouldn’t dislike Tony so much if his fans didn’t insist on making him out to be some Ultimate Victim and Marvel let him actually keep some character growth occasionally.
Tony has poor impulse control and enough money, charisma and plot armor that he’s largely avoided the consequences of his actions until now.
Either way, I try to be balanced in my writing, even if I do far less of it these days than I used to.
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Since tumblrs tagging is so shit I propose that we tag all posts that are specifically anti Tony as one word so they won’t come up just when someone searches for anything similar that way people don’t get mad about accidental cross tagging.
For example:
Antitony
Antitonystark
Or
Anti tonky stank
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alright not to be a total downer but before it starts up again can we tag the anti t*ny stuff or something? b/c every time it comes up i get reminded of my own narcissistic abuse and i like your writing too much to unfollow you rip. if not it's cool though!
i can! i’ll just tag it as “antitony*” so make sure to blacklist that
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Сoncept Arts for Infinity War with IronSpider comics red and gold suit.
MCU IronSpider suit isnt bad but I`d prefer to see comics version.
In IronMan colours.
Matching colours <З And i dont think that comics Civil War so problematic event for Tony`s character. A lot of ppl like to act around with antiTony thoughts but why everyone ignore or forgot that Tony was under Extremis straight from IronMan vol 4. It influenced his character through all events. He was more closed, manipulative, emotional and phisical aggressive. He was Tony but notTony at the same time.
Like once Tony almost roasted enemy and nearly strangled Steve when he saw crippled Peter. Just ok? Okay. It was for sure his emotions but it was obviously too much.
Or when Tony tried to send Peter away from New York. Because Tony understood that Peter didnt like the situation and Tony wanted to keep Peter on his side but far away, where he wouldnt have access to current events. (Amazing Spider-man #534)
And Tony wasnt proud with what was happend after. With May. But Tony promised Peter full protection of the family while they were in the tower from which Peter escaped. And Tony regretted what had happened. He even allocated money for May's treatment. Yes. This is photo of Tony with Peter and Mary Jane.
And after all Tony was there with Strange and Reed to help with a spell that erased from the memory of the world Peter`s identity. So tragic that none of them will ever know about it. (Amazing Spider-man #641)
But coming back to costumes-theme. Im in love with Red and Gold one even if Tony made it under extremis and may be under some type of selfish, possessive feelings. Its also ok. Beautiful that Tony still makes personalized costumes for Peter. Not only in Spider-man colors, but also adapted to use spider's abilities. So cute <З
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I wish I could write long paragraphs that make sense to defend Tony, but I get so angry when I read something that my brain just goes:
"fuck off. Did you watch the movies? Did you watch his solo movies? Do you know what character development is? Do you know or understand mental health? Fucking idiots"
I like Steve Rogers, I'm not anti Steve, I'm anti-antiTony's. I don't hate any of the characters really, but I can be biased to Tony. His development and mental health mean so much to me.
I was actually in another tag and many anti-tony bs rants showed up and I got mad. Including Tony yelling at Steve in Endgame.
Mate, he's on the verge of death, he's in physical, emotional and mental pain, just returned to earth to find out who else is gone, and Steve everyone just want to question him.
He needs to rest and heal. And yes everyone else is hurting too but, HE WAS STRANDED IN SPACE AND JUST GOT HOME. I actually liked him yelling at Steve, not because I blame Steve for everything, but I personally know going through something bad, traumatising, when you're hurting and mental health isn't good, you lash out. Steve was there.
Steve who preached about them being a team, doing everything together, then leaving. Tony, a man with trust and abandonment issues, was hurt by this man. If the roles in these movies where reversed I wouldn't blame Steve for yelling at Tony.
There were other bs posts like how Scott personally hates Tony?? 🤦🏻♀️ Yet another pitting Tony and Shuri against each other 🤦🏻♀️
They just make me so mad. How can you hate a fictional character so passionately?
It baffles me that some Steve fans hate him so much when cevans loves Tony and RDJ. I love them both, cevans and RDJ. And I love their characters, even though I lean more to Tony.
I don't agree with either of their endings in endgame. I'm mad they didn't have the scene of Bucky and Tony talking bc Tony would 100% forgive him. (Also of what I've seen in comics, they have a good relationship). After a very short while, once Tony was calm, he'd definitely understand that Bucky was brainwashed, Hydra killed his parents and used Bucky to do it. That Bucky was a victim. Other people have explained these points better than me. I believe he was more hurt by Steve.
God, I love and hate these movies and fandom. They did so many characters dirty. But the hate I see towards Tony, and people who do like him, is unbelievable. Before getting deep into the fandom online, reading pro and con Tony posts, I always noticed his mental health, his issues (trust, abandonment...), the front he put on to protect himself. But also how much he genuinely cares for everyone. Might just be me, I can relate 🤷🏻♀️
Tony and Steve overall want the same things, to help people, to protect them and save them. To make the world a better place.
But they're not the same person. They have different upbringings, personalities, abilities...the way they go about things are different. But they are both good. Both heroes.
I've started watching AA on disney+ and really am understanding those who say mcu did Steve and Tony dirty. They deserved better. But Tony and Tony fans deserve to be treated much better in this fandom.
This was really ramble-y and probably didn't make sense. Sorry.
(I'll think of more and more eloquent ways to put them in the middle of the night 😂)
(Not the whole fandom, not every Steve fan, most are lovely people and I love you❤)
#sorry for the rant#i love tony stark#i love tony so much#i love steve rogers#tony stark defense squad#tony stark#iron man#iron dad#please don't yell at me#I'm not good with conflict or words#I don't mean to spread any hate#it just makes me angry#i love my iron dad so much
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