So, I'm writing an essay on the whole STATE of misogyny in WC for one of my university classes, and I was wondering if I could ask you a couple of things! No pressure of course, please feel free to say no!
A) Could I reference your good takes with appropriate harvard referencing and links back to your blog?
B) Are there any specific moments from the books that you think should be covered the most?
C) The end result will be a visual essay, so it's like those fun infographics people on Tumblr make on like ADHD and stuff, so when it's done, would you like to be tagged to read it?
(Sorry for anon, I'm nervous lmao, but if you'd be more comfortable I'll resend this off anon)
AAY good topic! You've got a lot to work with. Absolutely feel free to reference anything I've written, and tag me when you're done.
While you're here and about to write something so legitimate, I'm also going to recommend you check out Sunnyfall's video on gender in Warrior Cats. She breaks down the arcs into numbers, directly comparing the amount of lines mollies have to toms, and examining the archetypes women are usually allowed to be.
I think it's a must-have citation in a paper about WC misogyny.
...and, I think it's insightful to look at the WCRP Forum thread about the video. Note how the respondents immediately come into the thread to complain about how the video is too long so they didn't watch it, dismissing Sunnyfall as not being entertaining enough to hold their attention, even whining that she starts with statistics to prove her point, which I'm convinced she did exactly because they would have cried that she "had no evidence" if she didn't.
I am not a scholar, so I don't know how to document or prove that the books have an impact on the audience outside of anecdotes. But I think if you do write a section about fandom, it would be worth mentioning the in-universe and metatextual apologia for Ashfur and its reflection in the real world discourse, the authorial killing of Ferncloud because of fan complains, and the utter defensiveness against the discussion of misogyny you see outside of Tumblr.
You may also want to check out Cheek by Jowl, a collection of 8 essays about sexism in xenofiction by Ursula K. Le Guin. There's a very unique manifestation of authorial bias in animal fiction, having a lot to do with how the author views "the natural world," and it's worth understanding even though Warrior Cats are so heavily anthropomorphized.
So... Warrior Cats Misogyny
I think discussing individual instances can be helpful, but I'd implore you to keep in mind what's REALLY bad about WC's misogyny is framing and the bigger picture.
Bumble's death is shocking and insulting, but it's not just that she died. It's that the POV Gray Wing sees her as a fat, useless bitch who took his mate so she deserves to be dragged back to a domestic abuser, and he's right because the writers love him so much. It's that Bumble's torture and killing only factors into how it's going to hurt a man's reputation.
It's how Clear Sky hitting, emotionally manipulating, or killing the following women,
Bright Stream (pressured into leaving her home and family)
Storm (controlled her movements and yelled at her in public)
Misty (killed for land, children stolen)
Bumble (beaten unconscious, blamed nonsensically on a fox)
Alder (child abuse, hit when she refused to attack her brother)
Falling Feather (scratched on the face, subjected to public abuse and humiliation)
Tall Shadow (thrown into murderous crowd, attacked on-sight in heaven)
Rainswept Flower ("blacked out" in anger and murdered in cold blood)
Moth Flight (scratched on the face for saying denying medical treatment is mean, taken hostage in retaliation against mother for the death of his own child, which he caused)
Willow Tail (eyes gouged out for "stirring up trouble")
Is seen as totally understandable, forgivable, or not even questioned at all, when killing Gray Wing in an act of rage would have been "one step too far" with the ridiculous Star Line.
"Kill me and live with the memory, and then let the stars know it would only matter if a single one of your murder victims was a man."
It's the way that fathers who physically abuse their kids out of their ego (Clear Sky, Sandgorse, Crowfeather) aren't treated anywhere near the same level of narrative disgust and revulsion the series has for "bad moms", even if they're displaying symptoms of a post-partum mood disorder (depression, anxiety, and rage), an umbrella of mental illnesses 20% of all new mothers experience but are heavily stigmatized with (Sparkpelt, Palebird, Lizardstripe).
It's Crookedstar's Promise giving him two evil maternal figures in a single book, while bending over backwards to make every man in a position of power still look likeable in spite of the fact they're enabling Rainflower's abuse. Leader Hailstar is soso sorry that he has to change Stormkit's name for some reason, in spite of leaders being unaccountable dictators the other 99% of the time, and Deputy Shellheart functionally does nothing to stop his own son from being abused or even do much parenting before or after the fact.
It's the way men's parental struggles are seen sympathetically, and they don't have to "pay for it" like their female counterparts (Crookedstar's PPD vs Sparkpelt's PPD, how Daisy and Cinders are held responsible for Smoky and Whisper being deadbeats, Yellowfang's endless guilt for killing her son vs Onestar's purpose in life to kill his own), even to the point where a father doesn't have to have raised their kids at all to have a magical innate emotional connection to them (Tree's father Root, Tom the Wifebeater, Tigerstar and Hawkfrost).
It's less speaking lines and agency for female characters, being reduced to accessories in the lives of their mates and babies, women getting less diversity in their personalities, with even major ex-POV characters eventually becoming "sweet mom" tropes.
You could zoom in on any one of these examples and have an amoeba try to argue with you that "Oh THIS makes sense because X" or "Ah well my headcanon perfectly explains this thing" or "MY mother/girlfriend was abusive/toxic/neglectful and I've decided that you are personally attacking ME by having issues with how a character was written or utilized," but the beleaguered point,
That I keep trying to hammer in, over and over, across books worth of posts,
Is that these are trends. More than just a couple one-off examples. It's the fabric that has been woven over years, showing a lack of interest in, or even active prejudice of, women on behalf of the writers.
LONG STANDING trends, which have only gotten worse as the series progressed. From Yellowfang being harshly punished with a born evil son who ruins her life in TPB and the mistreatment of Squirrelpaw that begins in TNP, all the way up to the 7 Fridgenings of DOTC and Sparkpelt's PPD being a major character motivator for her son Nightheart.
So, I would stress that in your paper, and structure it less as "the Sparkpelt slide" and "the Yellowfang slide," and more as "The paternal vs maternal abuse" slide, and "the violence against women" slide. They're really big issues, there's tons of examples for each individual thing.
Anyway to leave off on a funny, look at this scene in Darkest Hour that I find unreasonably hilarious,
"Everyone who matters to me; my truest friend, my sensible and loyal warrior, the wisest deputy I've ever known, and 2 women." -Firestar, glorious idiot
He can't even think of a single trait for either of them what the hell does "formidable pair" mean lmaooo, when I finished a reread about a year ago this line killed me on impact.
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Look, I love a good discussion about a topic, it can be fun, it makes you think and reconsider your opinions, it's a good mental exercise in general, and I enjoy it.
But sometimes everyone has their point of view and that's fine. Unless it is a moral issue, triggering to me, or squicking me out too much, I don't mind seeing it! I can agree to disagree. and I will gladly do so.
You have your hill to die on, I have mine, and we can both meet on other hills that we both like or just wave at each other from afar. I genuinely do not care.
I follow people that talk about fandoms I didn't even know existed (I still have not figured out what exactly taskmaster is but it looks like y'all are having a fun time) or that hold opposing opinions, and I still like seeing them on my dash. If someone would rather block/soft block me or otherwise prevent themselves from seeing me, that's fine, protect your peace, curate your blog.
What I DON'T like, however, is people being assholes or starting discussions on posts that are headcanons, ficlets, or anything that isn't meta/speculation/theories.
What I don't like is getting anons pressuring me to 'prove' something; you're not my inorganic chemistry prof, I don't need to show you proof for shit.
What I don't like is passive aggressive vague-posting or openly bashing people, keep that in private circles and DMs.
If I ever come across as angry/upset/too intense, 90% of the time it's simply me being autistic, shit at tone, and passionate about a topic—and you're always welcome to tell me if I am making you uncomfortable/you don't want me adding to your posts/to asks how I meant something/etc.
Thanks.
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not really, but I suppose that’s just a difference of opinion. I do think that gorgug’s nightmare sequence was one of the weakest, especially with how it shifted topics (being dead, small spaces, not being able to escape a stereotype, because if any of these had been expanded on that would’ve been great), but I do think a lot of gorgug’s character revolves around feeling in-between, or too much one thing and not another and trying to close that gap. The best one for me was deffo the sphinx tho, I interpreted it as not *just* about him being dumb, but rather like.
You’re big and dumb and strong and your main job is getting angry and hitting shit with an axe. You went to a community of gnomes and they gave you a better axe, and you loved it. You are uniquely dumb, unlike those who have come before you, because you cannot solve a specific kind of puzzle while a sphinx talks at you. You are the reason your parents cut contact, and from the beginning you were unsuited for their home. Your extended family predicted that you would grow to know only rage, and here you are, a barbarian. You, from this perspective, are not proving them wrong.
I do think that that whole sequence does reveal that he’s afraid of like. Being that stereotype? And then going yeah sure I’m stupid eat me, then moving forward and clawing your way into understanding anyways
Ahhh I see. Yeah I think I did misunderstand your first ask a bit lol
I did really love a lot of the topics his sequence brought up. Like I've read some incredibly well-written fanfics that covered the ways that claustrophobia, and imposter syndrome, and being dead have affected him. But like you said, if they had just honed in on at least one, rather than hopping back and forth, it could have done so much for that section. Cuz, personally, I don't feel like we saw Gorgug be significantly affected by any of those. At least not in a way that felt complete and satisfying.
I really like what you said about his character being "in-between". I totally agree. Kinda circles back to how his parents trying to help him calm his rage was actually stifling him.
Your family needs you to calm down; you've broken another bedchairdoorappliance. Your teacher wants you to rage; he says anger is good but you don't understand. You sing to try and calm yourself, you're always trying to be kind to others; they only use it to hurt you more and all you can do is get angry back. Your friends need you to rage. You don't have the power to protect them socially, but this you can do. You try not to rage outside of a fight, but.... they don't seem to be that bothered when you do. In fact, you watch them provoke physical confrontation when they're mad on many occasions.
(Oops dipped a biiiit into the pot of how important friendship is to his character. Did not mean to lol it's just one of my fav things about him so it's kinda subconscious I guess)
But yeah! He's also in such a limbo this season as well! You can't do this you're too angry, you're not smart enough for that, you don't rage right.
Also realllyy like your interpretation of his trial. The angle you described it at was really interesting.
I don't think stereotype is the right word, though. I would say... he's afraid of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy? I'm assuming based on your own "stereotype?" that you weren't sure about the word either.
I don't think Gorgug is, or would ever be, afraid of being a "stereotype". Like I don't think he gives a shit about the stereotype that orcs/half-orcs/barbarians only know anger and destruction. I think he's afraid of being a self-fulfilling prophecy of all the things people say that he is. Stupid, mindless, destructive, etc. To pull from what you said here (which it wont let me copy paste on mobile god fucking damnit)
"Your extended family predicted that you would grow to know only rage, and here you are, a barbarian. You, from this perspective, are not proving them wrong."
"Stereotype" for sure applies to his racist extended family. They fucking breathe stereotypes like oxygen. But the bit where his afraid of becoming what everyone says he is, I think "self-fulfilling prophecy" suits that much better. He believes he can be more than that, he knows he can, but it doesn't change the fact that they are technically right.
Okay and the giving in but then "clawing your way into understanding anyways" actually goes so hard lol. Anon, you are so right. From that pov, it's not so much a give up as it is an acknowledgment before he essentially puts the subject on ice.
Rings back a bit to the start of fhjy to me. That dread of seeing the email of school starting back up again, and the terrible sinking pit in your stomach of avoidance, because the time has come to really unpack all that. There was something specific Zac said in his little Gorgug recap before the season started that was about, like, the dread of having to figure out who the fuck you're gonna be when everyone around you seems to have their shit together. That. That hit hard lmao but the experience that he's covered is very true to Gorgug, I think.
I totally misunderstood your first ask! Though I'm happy you sent another cuz I understand a lot better, I think. And tbh I've never had the opportunity to discuss that section of fantasy high with anyone? I wasn't on tumblr or watching d20 when it first aired so I missed these specific topics. Always been v interested in what others thought of his part. Maybe I should put the vods on in the bg next time I'm play sdv. Give em a relisten. And man. The fact that I'm out here quoting your message brings me back to english class so hard. Shocked I don't hate it. Actually having a topic you give half a shit about does wonders huh lmao
Thanks for the ask! You have altered my perspective and I appreciate it. It's like how sometimes you gotta read something out loud to understand it. If all I have is the walls of my own skull, I can only get so far.
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I always feel like I need to make agreeable characters when I play dnd. I really aspire to have something like what you have with Blythe. Cuz she's clearly a very strong personality that isn't afraid to be difficult to her party members, but she also isn't derailing the campaign by being a bad fit for the party. That's such an awesome balance to achieve!
HILARIOUSLY, Blythe actually is very well liked in the campaign for the most part, there is only one singular character that dislikes her (Kasimir - partially due to her clear relationship to Rahadin)I play her as a highly charismatic, sweet talking, playful woman that can absolutely play nice to grease the wheels.
While yes, people can see that is ...well crazy, it's very clear she is not malicious for no reason, which she isn't! Up until recently she was the only evil party member, so she balanced out when other party members didn't want to get their hands dirty but something needed to be done. She is Neutral Evil just meaning she can go do unsavoury things to achieve her goals, and if her goals align with the party...well power to them! They have someone absolutely fucking insane that WILL get the job done, morals aside!
The other point is that Blythe is diplomatic. She may be opinionated but she does her best to avoid violence, unless it's an 100% fight she can win, and even then. She prefers to conserve resources in this manner, to avoid conflict and talk her way out of problems.
Just because she has a strong personality, and is an evil character doesn't mean she will be at odds with the good characters; plenty evil characters hide their unsavoury traits behind closed doors and can spin them to seem like they're reasonable. She's a silver tongued devil so to speak.
Most characters just seem hesitant to approach her in a romantic manner in case she get's offended because she can cast fireball upon ye :/
That and well. Keeping up with the level of excitement she seeks in her life.
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