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#and the cultural implications of that ship

survivalove · 5 months

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blah blah something something about how fandom gravitate towards more individualistic characters because they’re easier to understand compared to community-oriented characters whose character development is very much tied to their culture/nation because understanding a single character is easier to understand than a character AND an entire culture, especially when said culture is based off a marginalized community that exists in real life 🫠 and said fandom is majority WHITE.

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dykecubes · 6 months

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Can I say I love the way the qsmp is with relationships, how non-monogamy is kinda the norm and exclusivity is like a Big Deal, even a lot of the defined relationships are canonically pretty open

Idk it’s very interesting because, yes, some other servers could be interpreted in a similar way (empires comes to mind) but I think qsmp is one of the only ones where non-monogamy is not only the norm but it’s also explicitly addressed and somewhat canonically important IDK I just think it’s cool

#fae.txt #qsmp #IDKKKKK I really like looking at mcrp from a queer perspective and I don’t mean like exclusively a shipping perspective #I think it’s interesting how queer rp and queer players creates some really interesting cultural implications for the servers world building #I hope that makes sense haha #qsmp meta

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meistoshi · 11 months

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it's been said before & i'll say it again: satoshi's orientation is pretty much just. strong battler + smart + friend. so he has crushes on at least four of his friends right now that he plans to do zip about. also fun fact that his first & so far only celebrity crush was leon & it came n went pretty quickly....... but not quick enough that the whole institute, koharu included, didn't get a chance to tease him about it.

#absolutely NO ship implication here satoshi was just insanely starstruck & felt very normal about that for a solid week #ooc. pkmn is autistic culture.#study.#dash comm.

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succs · 2 years

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I love how insistent Kieran and J. Smith are that RomanGerri isn’t happening in a traditional sense, and they’re perfectly content with it being a licentious + weirdo style + unrequited pop-Freudian lust. They “ship” it but they ship it in the right sense where their dynamic is just Gerri keeping Roman in her purse and leaving him in her car with the AC on and the window cracked with an Andrew Tate podcast episode playing on loop on the radio. That should be their relationship

#they ship it like me because im a grandpa who doesn’t understand shipping culture and im kinda like a Mensa member for media analysis (tru)#like I love them but I can not see them getting married and settling down in a nice house with a white picket fence and a kid #look at me in the eye and tell me the guy who masturbated to being called ‘Slime Puppy’ would be ok with a normal relationship #he asked her to marry him but there’s no way he fully grasped what the implications of that were +it was impulsive+unconscious manipulation #succ.txt

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clearancecreedwatersurvival · 6 months

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People on this website really trying to downplay the specific role of destiel in the events of November 5th 2020 ‘it could have been any other ship that went canon at that time and had the same effect’ no.

Nothing else is destiel.

Nothing else is 12 years and hundreds of episodes of extremely obvious and deliberate queerbaiting that was Vehemently denied by the production team. Nothing else is the ship about characters whose larger overarching plot is literally fighting against their own pre-determined narrative to attain free will. Nothing else proved in the 11th hour Just before the show ended that the meta narrative and queer reading by fans who insisted there was something there and who were constantly called crazy by the production and by other fans and by the rest of the internet were RIGHT.

The CW did market research! About whether to make it canon! In a show they always pretended was aimed primarily at middle (conservative) America!!!

The queer subtext was so Fucking Strong by the end of the show, because the writers constantly wrote themselves into corners that could Only be explained away by destiel, that they HAD to admit defeat and canonize it.

And THEN even after they made it canon, they denied it some more and tried to downplay it! But it happened! The angel is fucking gay!!!!

Destiel is THE great American queerbait and had been a staple of the culture of this site for over a decade before November 5 2020. There is a REASON it is the most popular ship on AO3. ‘The same thing would have happened if johnlock became canon or spirk or whatever else’ no it simply would not have because crucially CRUCIALLY those ships Never Became Canon! The fact that Destiel of all the popular queerbait slash ships of the past few decades somehow at long last DID, and in a way that Still refused to just let the shippers have it and allow any implication of full reciprocation and that the final two episodes and the entire cast absolutely refused to acknowledge in any way, is why the canonization of destiel is one of the wildest things to happen to fandom culture as a whole in recent memory, and you cannot theoretically remove the destiel of it all and have it be the same kind of event.

The reason november 5 happened like it did, why people started making jokes at all, is because the fandom cultural juggernaut that is destiel becoming canon is the only thing that could have possibly managed to trend above the U.S. election. BECAUSE it’s destiel.

#i decided to make my own post instead of disagreeing with the op directly but #if you think the same thing would have happened with any ship other than destiel you ar playing yourself #i joined this fucking website in 2013 because of #destiel #like just because you didn’t watch the show doesn’t mean no one did bud #spn #Caitie speaks #nov 5 2020 #spn posting #nov 5th

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comradekatara · 1 month

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The hate that aang gets in the fandom is, uniquely, buddhaphobic. Trying to point out to racist ATLA fans that the air nomad genocide is based directly off the very real tibetan genocide is beyond frustrating alone. Pointing out that aang and the avatar are based off the tulku system is a whole other thing too...

There's a really specific type of anti Asian racism that Buddhists and Buddhist themed characters get online. Which interprets Buddhists as backwards, misogynistic and stupid. Alot of the time also insisting they are being selfish or in some way malevolent.

I have no idea how to constructively word this beyond that aangs hate online is anti Asian and buddhaphobic.

right. the way people talk about aang, whether it’s to criticize or even simply trivialize his pacifism and other cultural values, to dismiss the effects of genocide, to joke about genocide (don’t even get me started on that one post that jokingly called aang a holocaust victim, as if that isn’t egregiously disrespectful to literally everyone implicated), or to otherwise mock or demonize him for displaying cultural values that do, in fact, have a very explicit real-world analogue is actually vile. aang may never actually say “im a buddhist” in the show, but it’s still evident to anyone with a brain. he also does call himself “a simple monk.” do they think he means christian monk??? are people just out here like “where’s his tonsure!!!!” because it’s incredibly obvious that aang’s genocide is meant to reflect the tibetan genocide; whether or not you think it’s handled well, that’s what it is. and people either don’t know, or don’t care. either way, i think people simply lack an understanding of how imperialism functions and the ideologies that underlie it, because if they did, they’d all be talking about this show very differently. but you’re right. even if people “only” hate aang because he “gets in the way” of the “most obvious” ship, they are nonetheless insistent on using post hoc justifications to rationalize why their critiques of aang are logical rather than a mere preference…by nonetheless demonstrating how their preferences are, in fact, deeply rooted in cultural bias and eminently disrespectful to his real world counterparts. because it’s not actually about shipping. when shipping becomes a platform through which to propagate culturally disrespectful notions steeped in colonial bias, it no longer matters which ship has more chemistry, but rather becomes yet another a vehicle through which the implementation of genuinely violent and harmful ideas is facilitated. and it’s sickening.

#almightycaliborn #asks #aang #hot takes #i try not to get into this too much because it’s honestly so awful that i don’t want to talk about it #esp considering that i can only assume everyone already agrees with me #but like. if we’re going there let’s go there i guess

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five-flavor-soup · 29 days

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i genuinely, really like aang, but keeping his writing in book 3 and his writing in the comics in mind, i don’t think it’s all that implausible for him to get the sort-of-antagonist role in fics depicting katara-ships other than KA.

reiterating, i like aang: he’s adorable, he’s funny, and he’s nice. but i believe there’s something to be said about how his ‘niceness’ is written and seen as being The Reason he ‘deserves’ a love interest. his thinking is self-centred, and though that’s a believable flaw for a kid who’s, like, twelve, we’re shown that it’s a consistent character trait which is never treated as an issue… even though it is. (and if he’s mature enough to start dating the girl he’s going to marry and have children with, he should also be mature enough to be criticised for his less-than-savoury parts of his personality, no?)

it’s not OOC to write him as being possessive of katara even when they’re not dating, because he canonically is. it’s not OOC to write him as not respecting and/or noticing katara’s boundaries, because he canonically blows past them. the ideas that he might not mature much later on, that he might be wilfully and forcefully oblivious to any discomfort in the KA relationship, that he might continue shoving katara(‘s culture) aside—none of that is necessarily OOC, because aang does not go through significant character development in book 3 + the comics.

in The Promise, there’s that weird moment wherein aang is briefly anti-miscegenation and doesn’t change his mind until katara reminds him supporting that would affect him (him!!! his relationship with katara alone!!) personally. in TLOK, there’s the suggestion that aang never actively pushed for bumi & kya to learn about air nomad culture and there’s the heavy implication that aang never told the air acolytes about bumi & kya’s existence. additionally, tenzin doesn’t even have a hint of water tribe heritage anywhere in his house to honour katara’s side: he’s all air nomad (though?? nuclear family dynamic), in spite of being mixed.

don’t get me wrong, i vastly prefer fic and hc’s in which aang is a katara supporter first and foremost, and that’s also how i prefer to move through a fandom space barring meta and analyses. but i also don’t think making him jealous and petty when she dates someone else is a misinterpretation of the text we’ve been given; canon!aang shows the signs to become that way, and it’s not wrong to read his future self that way nor is it incorrect fandom-ing to highlight these traits

#aang critical #anti aang #and #anti kataang #just to be safe #don’t wanna infringe upon anyone’s space ✌️#do i adore aang? yes #do i think that KA could’ve been way way WAY better than the babysitting fantasy we got? also yes #in the very first ep he pops out of an egg and imprints onto the first person he sees idk how more clear this should be #for legal reasons that last tag is a joke

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reading-comp-posting · 2 months

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Have you ever considered using AI tools to assist with writing your responses?

Well no, because I'm doing this blog for fun. I'm enjoying writing out reading comprehension questions for posts, so why would I automate that away?

But let's say that I saw myself as some sort of arbitor of reading comprehension who needs to post as much as possible to enlighten the lowly tumblr masses. Let's say that I'm interested in upping my output of questions by any means necessary.

I opened up chatgpt and input a certain request, which would hopefully make it write questions about the last post I responded to:

Write reading comprehension questions about a Tumblr post, written by a user named "echoeyee," that reads as folows: "my take on shipping aromantic characters is that if you're aro you get to do whatever you want and if you're not you have to write me a three page essay 12 pt font times new roman double spaced explaining in detail why you believe entering a romantic relationship would be an interesting and worthwhile storyline for the character and how you believe their aromanticism would affect the way they experience said relationship"

And it certainly did write a lot of questions about it. Let's go through them, one by one.

1. What is the primary stance expressed by the Tumblr user "echoeyee" regarding shipping aromantic characters?

This one is good. If you look at the set I wrote, my first one is basically the same, just with different words and a less formal tone.

2. According to the post, what conditions must non-aromantic individuals fulfill if they wish to advocate for romantic storylines involving aromantic characters?

Again, this one is good. It's basically my 3rd question but, yet again, more formal.

3. Describe the format and specifications outined for the essay mentioned in the post.

This is the part where the questions get bad. The exact details of the essay are irrelevant, other than the fact that they imply a formal, academic setting.

4. In your own words, explain the user's perspective on the autonomy of aromantic individuals in contrast to non-aromantic individuals when it comes to shipping characters.

This question seems to genuinely be a product of chatgpt pissing on the poor. The purpose of the post (and specifically the essay within) is to ask people who ship aromantic characters without being aromantic themself to consider said character's aromanticism instead of erasing it.

Meanwhile, chatgpt seems to think that the OP thinks that people who aren't aromantic should be forced by law or something to write an essay if they want to ship an aromantic character.

5. How does the Tumblr post reflect the user's views on representation and storytelling in relation to aromantic characters?

I think that this one is a bit too speculative, but it does actually relate to the OP's intended takeaway.

6. Discuss the potential implications of the requirements set forth in the post for writers and creators in the realm of fiction and fanworks.

This one is just a bit confusing. Chatgpt seems to be going off the assumption that OP is issuing a decree as the emperor of the world.

7. Reflect on whether you agree or disagree with the sentiments expressed in the post and provide reasons to support your viewpoint.

This could have been a "discuss with a mutual" question, and I actually did initially write a question like this one, but I ended up removing it.

Aromantiscism is already controversial enough and I fear that a discussion of whether OP's take on shipping aromantic characters is valid could quickly devolve into discussion on whether aromanticism itself is valid.

8. How might the user's approach impact discussions and representations of aromanticism in media and popular culture?

Yet again, chatgpt is taking the essay thing way too literally. Yes, forcing every single writer who isn't aromantic but wants to ship an aromantic character to write an essay about it would most likely lead to a decrease in people erasing their identities, but the essay isn't the point.

9. Consider the broader societal and cultural context in which this post is situated. How might prevailing attitudes towards romantic relationships influence reactions to the user's perspective?

Obviously historical context is important to keep in mind when you're reading/listening to/watching/whatever a text, but this question has almost nothing to do with reading comprehension. You need to understand the post to imagine how people would react, sure, but understanding how people would react to the post doesn't help you understand this post very much.

10. What insights can be gleaned from this post regarding the importance of diverse and inclusive storytelling in media and creative works?

This could be a discuss with a mutual question. The issue is that it's a bit to broad of a topic.

#not reading comprehension questions #ask #self post

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bogkeep · 13 days

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Would you recommend the SSSS comic? I know little of it beside the very beautiful artstyle and premise

to answer the question of if i would recommend SSSS as a comic: yes, yes i would.

a description for those who don't know: Stand Still Stay Silent is a post-apocalyptic horror + adventure webcomic set in the nordics (norway, sweden, denmark, finland, iceland) that have been isolated from the rest of the world and gone back to their old gods. the the world outside of safe zones is full of trolls and beasts - humans and mammals that got infected by a horrible virus and turned into monsters. the story follows a ragtag crew that ventures into the old world (derelict denmark) on an expedition to collect books.

the comic updated every workday until it concluded in 2022, and consists of two Adventures. the creator had plans for many adventures with these characters in this world, but ended it after two when she wanted to take a new direction with her life.

what i love about it:

- the art is GORGEOUS. it's been a huge source of inspiration for me. open any page and it's a masterpiece, and you will ask yourself "how the FUCK did she update this FIVE DAYS A WEEK"

- the characters are wonderful and endearing. i just, i love them so much. i am so thankful lalli hotakainen exists he is one of my #1 blorbos forever

- the world is so cool. the blend of chunky sci-fi and norse mythology fantasy magic slaps. it goes so hard. i fell so hard for this comic when i got to the big ferry ship with a viking style dragon head prow added to it. it's everything

- it really really gets nordic cultures. it's difficult to explain all the dynamics and nuances but it just gets it. it brings me as a scandinavian a lot of joy to read a story that speaks to my heart this way. the attitudes, the language barriers, the cultural differences... it was so refreshing to me in a media landscape dominated by american stories. when the pandemic hit, i decided to reread the comic because i found such an odd comfort in seeing how it depicted the scandinavian countries reacting to, well, a pandemic.

- there's kittycats

what i don't like about it:

- the most glaring and obvious flaw is that everyone in the comic is white. there's not a single character of color anywhere, not even i background shots or the prologue. there's no mention of the saami people (the indigenous people of northern europe), either. i believe this was done in ignorance more than malicious intent, but the implications are Extremely Bad and it's been bothering me (AND MANY OTHERS) since day 1. that is the number one caveat i will give to anyone wanting to check this comic out. i've been in the discourse trenches and i am not going to excuse this. it's just bad!

- you can tell in the middle of adventure 2 that the creator has kind of lost interest in the work, around the time when she found jesus i guess. like, very few people can keep up work on the same creative project for years and years and years and i think it's fine that she wanted to drop it, but it's a bit sad to see the comic dragged to its end like a limp corpse, and feeling like the creator no longer really cares about the characters.

- minna sundberg has said and done some questionable things, presumably gotten somewhat radicalised over time, and has also converted to hardcore christianity which is what her new works are about. there's nothing about this in SSSS - there is a moment of christianity represented in the story in a sort of mythological sense, just like the other religions, but this was written before minna's conversion. her new works... are a Choice. i have much to say about them, and i have, and im not gonna rehash it now.

SO YEAH hopefully this will help you take an Informed Choice! i got into this comic in 2015 and was deep in the fandom and it's for better or for worse part of my soul foundation now.

i also recommend A Redtail's Dream, minna's "practice comic" before SSSS, based on finnish mythology and the kalevala.

#stand still stay silent #might as well tag this if i wanna dig it up later

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shirecorn · 1 year

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I mean Starlight's town is obviously a cult even in the show. And the implications of being able to take away someones destiny like that is kinda scary, like their cutie mark in canon is pretty much a part of their soul. Certainly a good portion of their total magic. The only possible good thing I can see is in a Trouble Shoes situation where his destiny causes him daily pain because it's literally bad luck. And that's being optimistic about it.

that's why I'm thinking that "special talent" is purely cultural. The importance, perks, and taboos vary from community to community, but it's all in all a very positive rite of passage for foals to find something they like.

Some communities make you commit to that for the rest of your life, others say you can change your talent and it's all about what makes you happy for now.

Starlight probably came from a town where your talent was EVERYTHING and Sunburst was literally ripped away from her when their community decided his talent was magic and shipped him off to magic school.

So she was thinking she would get away from this whole system of what makes you "special" and then went way way way way too far and stripped everyone under her control of any sort of individuality. I'm surprised she even let them keep their names.

Healing her compound town is a lot more complicated than removing the cult leader, since most of them joined her town for a reason, also feeling the pressure of this "special talent" destiny from their various communities. But as cults do, it turned to abuse and control. Now without her they are able to explore things they enjoy, but it's uncertain and still feels taboo.

Her magic influence was to make it literally impossible for them to connect with their passions, which sure did remove the whole Special Talent issue but is also Literally Depression

#skyscraper gods lore #skyscraper gods #ask

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ultfreakme · 6 months

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Honestly Geto and Gojo having the same death anniversary which happens to be the most romantic day in Japan, with a character in-story stating how romantic it is should be enough evidence to convince anybody that SatoSugu are supposed to be a romance.

On top of that, we hear that JJK0 is about Yuuta and Rika's love but it's also about Geto and Gojo's relationship.

Then Gege Akutami specifically assigning break-up songs to Geto and Gojo.

AND THEN; they each get canon songs made in each other's POV speaking about their feelings specifically for one another. Where Gojo's song contains lyrics like "Even though I’ve come to know the scent of you being different from mine" and "Any prayer, any word Could bring us closer, but they couldn’t reach you Just like a silent love, In the summery colors along my cheeks". And Geto's song has lyrics like "Even trivial conversations are fine. Show me your blushing face once more" and "It exists only here. I want to touch you" and "Though I understand a wounded heart. Why do I end up hurting and leaving the same scars?"

The animation team going out of their way to give these two more soft moments hanging, creating visual parallels through the Betta Fishes, the flowers, the entire OP for Hideen Inventory but especially the part where we are seeing Gojo's vision being filled with Geto looking amazing while he rides Geto's rainbow dragon.

I saw someone say we're just projecting western views of romance onto satosugu but like, LOOK AT ALL THIS. I cannot stress enough the insanity of their death dates. It's like two people dying one after the other on Valentine's Day. This is some Romeo & Juliet bullshit. JJK in general has next to no romance, no one's pining after each other, the few times there are implications, it's very short. The most obvious one is Mechamaru and Miwa. Now imagine if Mechamaru and Miwa were the ones who got Ao No Sumika and Akari. Imagine they got 5 episodes dedicated to their story and Mechamaru dies on December 24th and Miwa's the one forced to put him out of his misery for betraying them to Mahito and Kenjaku.

Okay do you fucking see how ridiculous denying SatoSugu is? If Mechamaru and Miwa got all that even WITHOUT saying an 'I love you' no one would question their romance.

I know people keep making fun of shonen animes for having a stronger 'romance' between the two guy leads than with any other love interest but I've seen that stuff and even there it isn't nearly as deliberately romantic as SatoSugu. I can tell that Kuroko & Kagami, Gon & Killua or Levi & Erwin are supposed to be friends, the shipping thing is based on the established friendship stuff but SatoSugu are so blatant it's hard to think of another explanation.

I saw a point about how people are projecting western perspectives of romance on platonic friendship expression in a different culture, which I do get, I think it's a valid point. Idk much about how people express friendship in Japan but I have heard there's a lot more skinship and openness as compared to western cultures.

But w/ SatoSugu there isn't anything that can be read as purely platonic, there's always an ambiguity or it's directly romantic.

#satosugu #tired of dudebros freaking out over how on the nose satosugu is #'oh they're brothers' buddy maybe I could still believe that for narusasu because the author mentioned basing it on his brothers #but satosugu in-text are aligned with lots of romance #THEY'RE VISUALLY CONTRASTING BUT COMPATIBLE TOO #i know i know amatonormativity #I GET THAT #but you can't deny these two are romantically involved when the OST that played over their final scene together was called-#;This is pure love'#genuinely how can you explain it as anything else?

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olderthannetfic · 6 months

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What annoys me the most about people tacking on "white" to things they just find cringe so they feel like they can make fun of it (or disguise other forms of bigotry like misogyny or ableism) is that it also erases all the nonwhite people who fall into that category too. Specifically in activities or experiences nonwhite people are already heavily policed in or excluded from because of, yknow, actual racism. In the case of fandom, people like to whine about white fangirls when discussing pretty typical fandom behaviour that has nothing to do with race.

And I'm white so I have no right to whine about people discussing fandom racism or making jokes about white people or venting about racism, but when people casually say that all the "bad" kink or the shipping culture or some harmless cringe thing in fandom is actually white people making fandom worse, it doesn't bother me (the white girl) but certainly makes me feel worried for my fellow nonwhite fans who can be just as kinky and cringe and as big a shipper as I am. A statement like that is often not only plain mean and morally judgmental for harmless behaviour the speaker just doesn't like, it carries layers of uncomfortable implications and Otherization for fans who aren't white.

Being kinky and/or weird isn't a white person thing. It's a people thing. Saying that nonwhite people don't do kinky and/or weird things isn't a compliment but instead reinforces how nonwhite people already face stricter policing of their behaviour and sexuality. Idolization is a form of dehumanization as well and usually goes hand-in-hand with more restrictive expectations and harsher penalization for deviating from them.

Yup.

It is absolutely my pleasure and my duty as a kinky person to tell people that they are massive dickheads for saying that kink is a white thing.

This toxic attitude does a lot of damage, and it shouldn't be on the nonwhite kinky people to be the only ones pushing back against it.

In addition to mandating that nonwhite people be more ~pure~, it also mandates that they all be good writers. If there is no room for "bad" tropes in fic and other such ~fandom crimes~, there is also no room for more nuanced tropes executed poorly because someone is just not that great at their craft.

The entire argument comes with a bucketload of "I can just tell the author is X and thinks Y from them writing Z" bullshit.

No. No you cannot.

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even-in-arcadia · 1 month

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I was rereading "Lovers of the Human Flesh" by Caleb Crain as one does and I was very struck by two particular lines in relation to one Cornelius Hickey:

Incorporating what you love is a sure way to see that it never escapes from you.

and

Eating something is a way of keeping it with you forever, but it is also a way of destroying it.

I don't need to delve into the implications for Hickey's actual cannibalism - that's been done by those better (and more attached to Hickey) than I. What I want to talk about more is this concept in relationship to Hickey's ambitions to godhood.

Hickey has a plan always, at all times. It's a plan that shifts based on what seems best for him, what seems most convenient, and whatever he thinks his relationship to Crozier is at any given moment. They all essentially make sense in a scrappy, aggrieved, mutiny kind of way. Until: Solomon Tozer tells him, horrified, that he witnessed the Tuunbaq eat Mr. Collins' soul. Hickey says, specifically, that this merits a change in plan. He spends a long time by himself on a hill doing --we'll never know what.

EC/Cornelius Hickey, a man who clearly has never known a love that didn't turn on him or leave, has determined to be become melded to the Tuunbaq, an eater of souls. Gibson turned on him by falsely representing their relationship to Irving; Crozier turned on him by denying the "clear" bond they had and denying Hickey's gift of Lady Silence; he's been betrayed by this entire voyage that was supposed to take him to Oahu. Who knows what other loves have betrayed him.

If the Tuunbaq can eat souls, if Hickey can become connected with that power, then perhaps he too will be able to incorporate souls! Perhaps he will be able to finally ensure that something, someone will never turn on him. And if those souls must be destroyed in the process, what is it to him? Has the world not spent his entire time on earth trying to destroy him? (Conjecture: but given what we learn of him, the Nagaitis lore, and the cultural & economic context in which he exists, I think this is reasonable.) He yells into the Arctic air:

Bugger Victoria! Bugger Nelson! Bugger Jesus! Bugger Joseph, bugger Mary! Bugger the Archbishop of Canterbury! NONE EVER WANTED NOTHING FROM ME

He feels abandoned by every institution of society, and so he is going to create one in his own image. He offers a captain, an officer, a marine, and a ship's boy: the ship's hierarchy in miniature. If he feeds the Tuunbaq their souls and then melds with Tuunbaq himself, he can eat society and reconstitute it not just in his own image but in his own person, with only his chosen loyal followers, those who do want something from him. As Crain says, "In Freud's Totem and Taboo, the cannibal feast is the founding act of crime and sharing that binds society." That's the founding myth Hickey is not just counting on but trying to actively create.

And maybe, maybe! When he has access to Tuunbaq's power - will he have a line on those souls as well? Tuunbaq devours both body and soul in tandem, suggesting they are connected. As Hickey has already eaten of Gibson's flesh, maybe he can reconstitute and reingest that as Gibson's soul. Thus the destruction becomes the resurrection becomes the incorporation. Crain writes: "The body is a convenient boundary for the definition of the self. [...] in practice the peculiar act [cannibalism and homosexuality] violates that boundary. The act offers an ecstatic union." A cannibal rat wedding, if you will.

Crozier says to Hickey, "You must be a surpassingly lonely man." Hickey doesn't deny this. He merely says "Not for long." This is about power, but it is also about an end to loneliness, to his sense of betrayal at all levels and at every turn. Of course, it doesn't work out. In not caring about who suffered the consequences of his actions, he failed to take into account that incorporation & ingestion involve destruction. He thought himself the instrument of this, but by failing to see the Tuunbaq unto itself, as something other than a tool, as the independent Arctic that could never stomach Western society and live: he turned that back on himself and so was himself destroyed.

#cw cannibalism #is it weird if i write caleb crain fan mail #the terror amc #cornelius hickey #tuunbaq #apparently i'm a terror essayist now #i have not reread this and don't know if it makes sense

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ineffable-opinions · 3 months

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Seme/uke - long response

A decolonial and subaltern take on three posts on seme/uke dynamics that aims to contextualize them while questioning ethnocentrism. I welcome alternative perspectives, corrections and criticisms.

Post #1: Seme/uke dynamics in Be Loved in House...

@absolutebl responding to @echos-of-ivy

Seme – Uke

About two or more characters in a ship/pairing:

seme 攻め: top (the pitcher) (from origin - attack) also referred to as 左 (left)、タチ (tachi)、トップ (top)

uke 受け: bottom (the catcher) (from origin – receive / accept) also referred to as 右 (right)、ネコ(neko/cat)、ボトム (bottom)

riba リバ: verse (doesn't mind being either a top or a bottom) (from origin - reversible)

seme and uke are sourced from martial arts lingo: seme (martial arts), uke (martial arts) & is related to nanshoku tradition (depictied in ukiyo-e style painting below) of androphilia rather than western norms of queerness. Such differences in culture in queerness is seldom appreciated.

Spring Pastimes. Miyagawa Isshō, c. 1750

Sometimes, androphilic men use seme/uke/riba instead of the following terms which are popular in their queer community:

tachi タチ凸 - top

neko ネコ凹 - bottom

riba リバ回 – verse

Other BL producing countries also have similar terms for seme/uke/riba. And those countries also have terms for top/bottom/verse/side in their queer communities.

For example,

In Chinese BL (danmei), seme/uke/riba -> gong (攻)/shou (受)/hu gong (互攻)[1]

In Chinese tongzhi community -

top: gong (攻) or 1 or 上 or 凸

bottom: shou (受) or 0 or 下 or 凹

verse: bu fen (不分)or 0.5 or 10

side: 不10 or 纯爱[2]

四爱 (fourth love) is the Chinese term for heterosexual relationship wherein the woman tops. When fictionalized, such romances are referred to as GB (girl boy) romance as opposed to BG (boy girl) and the heroine is referred to as female gong 女攻め.

In Thai BL, seme/uke/riba -> me (เมะ)/ ke (เคะ)/ se (เซะ) & their queer community have these terms.

Evolution

When the work does not involve sexual acts, seme/uke/riba is assigned based on speculation (‘what if’) in line with audiences’ preference. There are a bunch of stuff that are employed to determine the dynamics but owing to variation in taste, audience don’t always agree with each other. Since seme/uke/riba archetypes rose to that status with the yaoi (doujin) boom with development of comiket, etc. tanbi, June, original shonen ai and other such types of BL don’t follow these archetypes. Live action which follows, to an extent, the latter tradition, such as Boys Love (2006), also don’t have uke/seme/riba archetypes, instead follows the archetypes that was popularized by tanbi literary movement. Tanbi literary movement was queer in more ways than one. It preceded/birthed BL (Mori Mari) and influenced it.

As no culture is passive recipient [pun intended], different glocalizations of seme/uke/riba dynamics exhibit different features, both within and outside Asia (eg. original English-language BL publication).

IRL

While being top/bottom/verse/side pertains to sexual preference/choices and acts or lack thereof, it is not devoid of other implications. Here are some interplay between these preferences/choices and the implications to consider:

Are these preference/choices innate or socially formed? Or both? Or neither?

What does it mean to be top/bottom/verse/side – within and outside the queer community?

Performance of masculinity, femininity, neither. Which masculinity/femininity? Is that masculinity/femininity performance – marginalized, soft, protest, hegemonic or amalgamated?

How local and global queer cultures influence it?

Is it some kind of conformation/attempt to fit in? If yes, what kind and why?

How are those choices impacted by history (including that of colonialism), legal/political implication (e.g.: pink certificate in Türkiye), local forms of patriarchy & heterosexism, class, nationality, race, skin color, caste, age, employment (including sex work) or lack thereof, physical location & avenues of exploration, abilities and disabilities, access to internet & other infrastructure, education (including sex education), health conditions and access to medical care, etc.

How do they form expectations regarding oneself and others?

While it can be argued that there shouldn’t be any other implication associated with such preference/choices, one can not simply wish them away as it is more often than not linked to certain social realities.

BL as well as gei comi are genres of fiction, telling tales of male androphilia – these are reproductions of imagination entwined with realities, reflecting desires, fantasies and biases plenty.

Conflation

I disagree that uke/seme/riba archetypes are conflated “casually” with bottom/top/verse in narratives and discussions around them. There is a difference that P’AbsoluteBL probably isn’t aware of:

Uke is the bottom in a ship. A character could be uke in a ship, seme or riba in another. For a character to be a ‘bottom’, he has to be sou uke or total/complete uke. It means no matter who he is paired with he will always be the uke.

Alternatively, a sou uke is a character that makes all other characters become seme for him and go after him.

Similarly, a character could be called ‘top’ when that character is a sou seme or total/complete seme. Unless a character is established as a sou seme or sou uke in the narrative, there is always a possibility that those characters are verse. While most BL involves set ships, it is not rare to find characters who are uke in one relationship becoming seme or riba in another. Sometimes, after a time skip, transmigration, reincarnation, etc. BL characters end up switching within a ship.

In Live Action

While there is plenty of riba ships in other BL media, live action has had very few.

These couples were riba in the novel:

Bai Luoyin and Gu Hai – Addicted – The censorship struck right after the couple had their first coitus interfemoris (based on the chronology in the novel).

Lu Feng and Cheng Yichen - A Round Trip to Love

Lan Yu and Chen Handong - Lan Yu

Dom/sub

While the P’AbsoluteBL is allowed to do whatever, I don’t think correlating dom/sub with seme/uke is a good idea in the context of BL because:

BL has a separate speculative fiction subgenre called dom-sub-verse (Dom/Subユニバース) which have its own conventions. It is one of the many subgenres that took inspiration from omegaverse and has grown parallel to it. It takes dominance and submission from the kink community and explores them as innate/biological traits.

It involves characters who are identified as Dom(ドム), Sub(サブ), Switch(スウィッチ), and Usual/Normal/Neutral(ユージュアル/ノーマル/ニュートラル). Along with the standard elements of BDSM in fiction such as safeword, sub space, sub drop and aftercare, it also involves additional elements such as kneel(ニール), glare(グレア) and collar (カラー). There are commands コマンド (命令) that Dom gives to Sub. Sometimes elements borrowed from omegaverse such as heats/ruts, suppressants and professional Dom also appear in this sub-genre.

Dom×Sub ship: Dom is the seme & Sub is the uke.

eg. Hizamazuite Ai Wo Tou 『跪いて愛を問う』 & Rhetoric 『レトリック』 by 山田ノノノ Mijuku Na Boku Ha Shihai Wo Kou 『未熟な僕は支配を乞う 1』 by音海ちさ

Sub×Dom ship: Sub is the seme & Dom is the uke.

Jouzu Ni Dekita Ne Watasesan 『上手にできたね、渡瀬さん』 by 野萩あき Shoshinsha Dom Ha Hameraretai 『初心者Domはハメられたい』 by やんちゃ Gohoubi Ni Kubiwa Wo Kudasai (ご褒美に首輪をください) by Naruse Kano

Dom×Switch ship: Dom is the seme & Switch is the uke.

Sono Meirei De Ore Wo Abaite 『その命令で俺を暴いて』 by 小夏うみれ愛の声で暴いて by 泉門くきいでおすわりしてみせて by 由元千子

Switch×Switch ship: One of the switches is the seme and the other the uke.

強情なSwitchの躾け方 by ことぶき

Dom×Dom ship: One of the dom is the seme and the other the uke.

コマンドミー、プリーズ by 町田とまとサディスティックに暴かれたい by 星崎レオ (uke is a Dom, seme’s identity is not made clear) Kyousei Switch 『強制Switch』 by 彩田あまた

Like most BL genres, it is yet to make its way into live-action BL.

There are plenty of BDSM themed BL as well as training (調教) style BL where seme/riba/uke can be switch or sub or dom.

Problematizing the Problem

Hence, the argument that conflation of seme/uke with top/bottom is “a PROBLEM” is ironic. The main reason given for that argument is that “het consumers [would] conflate (egregiously & incorrectly) top with male/masculine and bottom with female/feminine.” Here are some things that I think is relevant to think about that:

Why would ‘het people’ or any people for that matter think in terms of male-female / masculine-feminine binaries? Do they think in those binaries only and not other binaries such as wen(文)-wu(武)? Why think in binaries and dichotomies at all? Don’t they not think in terms of multiplicity of genders/gender expressions such as various kinds of masculinities and femininities) based off on their local contexts?

Do queer people not make such/similar conflations? (Hint: they do.)

Is it a problem? While this seems to be the popular notion, plenty of scholars from across the globe has dismantled it.

What exactly do P’AbsoluteBL think ‘het people’ conflate riba characters with? Feminine-feminine? Masculine-masculine? Neither? Both? Something else?

There are different conceptions of masculinities within a culture which get reflected in cultural goods, including BL, from there. Here are some really old depictions:

Qing dynasty Chinese Water and Land Ritual painting depicting a divine civil official and thunder god in military regalia. [Wen - wu]

Paintings of Padmapani and Vajrapani on either side of the Buddha, from cave 1 of the Ajanta Caves.

Moreover, if the problem is hinging on a particular understanding of seme/uke: the one in which seme is not feminine or uke is not masculine enough. If latter is the issue, it can be fixed by sticking to BL media with otokomae uke or macho uke. If former is the issue, there’s more than enough works with maiden seme and josou seme. If one is yet to encounter any such works, one is not looking far enough.

Masculinities in BL

Here are three central characters from Finder series embodies different types of masculinities – a lot of it is presentation, physical attributes, age, power and social standing. Akihito is a young and vivacious uke who happens to be short and sinewy. Asami Ryuichi is a supadari seme: a guy who is tall, well educated, high earning, with good looks. In addition, he cooks and cleans and cares when he wants to. Fei Long is tall, beautiful and cunning and can be regarded as a riba character. But can any of these characters considered not masculine by regular standards? Isn’t Akihito masculine enough for his age? And if we are to compare Asami, we are sure to find him lacking but then give him time to grow. They have a dozen years between them. Moreover, can average men stand comparison with a super darling? But then in the grand setup of patriarchy, isn’t power concentrated in the hands of the older men who dominates even the super darlings, both in real world and fictional ones.

Ayase Yukiya & Kanou Somuku from No Money

Consider the case of Ayase, would you call him a “feminine” uke? Probably yes. He is small in stature - petite and cute. He is definitely very small in comparison to his seme Kanou. They probably have one of the most exaggerated size differences and an extreme case of the traditional pairing.

The traditional pairing comes from the customary practice of androphilia in pre-modern Japan. It involves relationship between a wakashu and a nenja or from the tradition of nanshoku. The former is not considered a man by the period’s standards and is considered a third gender by some scholars. The latter is considered as a mentor and lover for the former. While the traditional faded with ‘modernization’, tanbi literary movement (among others) kept alive remnants of it through the writings of the likes of Yukio Mishima.

Note that the youth on the left is wearing a kimono whose style (furisode) and color was considered appropriate for adolescents of both sexes but not adult men, which along with the partially shaved pate denotes the boy's wakashū age status while the exposed bare feet indicates the purely sexual demeanor.

The traditional pairing has clearly inspired Japanese mangaka both BL artists and others. Look at the wakashu in customary androgynous clothing, younger, fairer and even smaller than the nenja, with relatively less experience being embraced by nenja who is in customary male clothing.

Check out more shunga about nanshoku to see visual ancestor of “yaoi”. The visual legacy continued with the likes of Go Mishima. The queers did it first.

From the series "Mishima Go Book of Young Man" - Japan - 1972 (Showa 47)

Ayase in No Money fits into the wakashu ideal. Moreover, the creators of this manga explicitly differentiated between feminine uke with wakashu uke by juxtaposing Ayase with Someya who embodies traditional femininity.

Someya and Honda from Henshin Dekinai

Putting it into perspective, it is noticeable that many a BL involves similar pairing. A lot of criticism BL faces is when it sticks to nanshoku dynamics. Interestingly, critics who can’t imagine genders beyond masculine and feminine, fail to tell apart “feminine” characteristics from wakashu characteristics. But there is no dearth of such dynamics getting subverted in numerous ways in BL:

ship with younger, lower class, petite, androgynous or any combination of customary wakashu characteristics in seme/riba.

ship with all parties being of similar age, class, physical attributes, experience, etc.

Emancipation

Shouldn’t typical uke archetype be seen as an example of subversion of the main character masculinity that dominates media landscape? Shouldn’t they be exalted for being what they are? Uke archetype that allows all genders to project onto and gain pleasure from, is that any less than a marvel in itself?

Pursuer & Pursued

In order to analyses if there is a shift in seme-uke dynamic, the P’AbsoluteBL employs the following to categories who is active:

who is pursuing whom

who makes the first call in terms of declarations and physical touch

who seems to be more in charge of the relationship

In BL, these are never reserved for seme/uke/riba. Who takes on which role depends on the narrative. BL rarely have fixed pursuer-pursued. All parties involved in a ship take on active role in different circumstances.

Take, for example, the original edition of Ossan’s Love, Hasegawa Yukiya employs certain indirect tactics to pursuing Soichi Haruta such as cooking, cleaning and caring for him. (These are tasks that seme/riba/uke usually engage in lighter BLs to gain and retain the attention/affection of the one they are pursuing.) Hasegawa also engages in activities they do together as a means to grow closer. Once he learns of his love rival, he switches up the tactic. He pursues more directly and aggressively. Soichi rejects him. He withdraws and returns to the original tactic but without attempts to grow closer. Soichi feels the loss and tries to get close to Hasegawa but is brushed off. He does not back down. Instead, he takes on a more aggressive route of pursuit - making amends and chasing after Hasegawa.

What P’AbsoluteBL implies with “I think BLIHID’s main couple has a REALLY weak seme/uke dynamic from the get go” is made abundantly clear in with “ShiLei does a lot of active pursuit, also he’s very self actualized.” Here, using pursuer/pursued would have sufficed. Instead, P’AbsoluteBL chose to disappropriate established terms ‘seme/uke’ and imbibed them with implications of “active pursuit” as well as “self-actualization” [regarding queer identity] that seme/uke/riba doesn’t carry originally. Most of it based on biases built on equating all BL to one type of BL: the one with traditional pairing that follows royal road progression.

What P’AbsoluteBL actively avoids discussing is that Beloved in House is basically following the super popular ‘domineering president’ plot based on a BG romance.

Live Action Struggles

P’AbsoluteBL mentions an imagined ‘struggles around seme/uke’ in live-action BL. I think the actual issue plaguing live action BL is the struggle to balance business and other interests while being able to do justice to the diversity within BL as a media genre.

source: (chil-chil.net)

In the chart:

ほの��の – heartwarming – Example: Restart After Come Back Home

コメディ – comedy – Cherry Magic

ダーク – dark – Sing in Love

シリアス – serious – Cornered Mouse Dream of Cheese

キュン – exciting (kyun) – Mr. Unlucky Has No Choice but to Kiss

Japan has trouble in diversifying its live-action in terms of sub-genres and treatment/mood. Even Thailand, despite the amount it produces have trouble offering variety. Riba couple, maiden seme, yarachin characters, yandere X yandere ship, etc. are either very rare or non-existent in live action BL. Moreover, live action BL is seldom explicit and are mostly in the speculative territory with seme/uke/riba dynamics, making it all the harder to diversify.

Tbh, what fascinated me the most is the “I kind of automatically cringed” part of the question. I would love to know what brought about that reaction. I am sure that it would help shed some light on discourse surrounding BL in general.

Post #2: Blushing Maiden Trope & Seme/Uke

Discussion (intended and in italics) between an anon, @heretherebedork & P’AbsoluteBL on actions and reactions during physical relationships.

The discussion centers around “the character placed into the stereotypically feminine role” being repulsed/reluctant/hesitant when it comes to physical relationships. It is directly attributed to “purity culture in BLs”.

BL have a complicated relationship with “purity” or being “clean”. Tanbi roots of BL hinged on sexuality and obsession with beauty to the point of decadence. Shonen ai (original meaning) works also had characters who are usually promiscuous for one reason or the other, never forming very deep relationship (at least not enough to stick to monogamous unions for long) yet endlessly entangled with other characters, often baffling non-queer characters in those works.

from Song of the Wind and Trees

[Inviting readers to hazard a guess: who is the seme and who is the uke. Answer at the end of this post.]

But how explicit the depiction of physical relationships has varied in BL with time and space. Japanese BL with the self-published BL (aniparo / yaoi – original meaning) boom saw very explicit depictions side by side with the commercial BL which have barely any explicit content or those which take a closed-door approach. Now Japanese BL have a wide range in terms of explicit content and have grown to incorporate elements from other genres including gei comi. Korean BL is similarly doing well. It is not uncommon to have chapters or parts of chapter in manhwa and novels dedicated to the celebration of physical relationships. Thai BL also have no dearth of explicit content, especially in web publishing. Chinese BL in its early days had lots of explicit content, especially in self-publishing. But as censors started taking notice and cracking down, authors and platforms clamped down. Most BL were purged of any & all explicit content. Some of it migrated to Taiwanese platforms, AO3 & other foreign hosts. Now all danmei published is “pure love” devoid of even allusion to depiction of any physical relationship beyond above neck action.

When it comes to BL live action, things are a little different. In Japan and to an extend abroad, there has always been overlap between audience of BL and audience of Japanese GVs and pink eiga. Moreover, early live-action Japanese BL was probably aimed exclusively at hardcore BL fans. They were way more explicit on average and did not always involve physical relationship between the main ship. Same seems true about early live-action Chinese BL. A Round Trip to Love Part 2 (2016) even had bondage and SM scenes which wasn’t there in the novel; but then it didn’t have the hard-earned happy ending the novel had either. But now, even dangai with “socialist brotherhood” (社会主义兄弟情) can’t be aired. Meanwhile, Japan’s average BL today lacks much explicit content. This isn’t to say that it doesn’t drop an occasional Sei no Gekiyaku (2020) once in a blue moon. Here are my speculations to why more of those doesn’t get made.

There is another reason for “purity culture” in BL.

Sathaporn Panichraksapong, an MD of GMMTV, a major producer of BL series, claimed that audience members who are mainly heterosexual women look for romantic relationships among the characters rather than sexual relationships.

We know that our audience are [sic] women. Women want to see only two boys having romantic moments together. They don't want to see sex. Sexual relationships in BL are for a gay audience. That's why in SOTUS the Series we have only two kissing scenes. With only these, audiences were already screaming. This is enough for them. (Interview with Sathaporn, GMMTV, 10 Aug. 2017)

Jirattikorn, Amporn. "Heterosexual Reading vs. Queering Thai Boys' Love Dramas among Chinese and Filipino Audiences." (2023).

As Jirattikorn goes on to highlight, this [wrong] perception about the audience (“women”) have changed ever since.

While early BL series tend to portray pure love without showing many sexual relationships, later BL series started to show more sex scenes between the two male lead characters.

Jirattikorn (2023)

“It’s always the character being pursued, who is typically in his first relationship, who Never Thinks Of Sex. They’re often very sweet and innocent and wide-eyed.”

While heretherebedork attributes it to “purity culture”, it can be argued that this has to do with what audience wanted:

I like the way they portray love in Thai BL. It is a kind of puppy love. BL of other nations, like Chinese BL, are darker. In Thai BL, two male characters often start off friends, then develop feelings for each other. It is very light, very sweet. (Krissy, f, 27, Philippines)

Jirattikorn (2023)

and what media houses thought they wanted, as evidenced by Jirattikorn’s interviews with BL fans. This is not to dismiss struggles with purity culture which is often a very slow part of decolonialization.

P’AbsoluteBL goes further to the argument that “purity” is associated with seme/uke dynamics in BL and maps it to typical het pairing (BG):

The stronger the seme/uke dynamic (the more heterosexually dysmorphic and less actually gay) the more likely this trope will manifest. Simply put: the man (because he is hooah a MANLY MAN DUDE) wants sex but the woman (delicate pure flower of cleanliness and joy) does not. And if she does want it she is a DIRTY, worthless, whore - so she MUST protest sex (GASP) at every single turn. (Seme is acting the male and uke the female in these kinds of narratives.) *please sense my sarcasm dumb interwebs, mm’kay?*

It’s true that the argument seems persuasive but is it right? Probably not. Seme, uke and riba characters can be divided into strong/weak categories based on their characterization - with the strong ones being those who pursue, take initiative, most likely to initiate intimacy at least for their first time, etc. and weak ones being those at the receiving end of pursuits and initiatives. Pairing a strong one with a weak one is probably more traditional –

strong riba x weak riba like in Addicted (at least before time skip)

strong seme x weak uke like in Old Fashioned Cupcake

weak seme x strong uke like in Saezurutori Wa Habatakanai (at least before time skip; pavam Doumeki)

compared to those with both parties being strong (which leads to delectable friction and sparks flying when done right) or both being weak (which leads to audience wondering: will either of them do something? No? Very well!).

BL’s sex negativity

Seme gets overwhelmed by his lust for uke, acts aggressively and has to be shut down or warned off.

Not only seme, uke and riba characters does this too. P’AbsoluteBL attributes “getting overwhelmed by lust” and “acting aggressively” to seme when it can be attributed to both uke (襲い受け) and riba as well. Other than acting aggressively, characters may employ seduction (eg. Xia Shang Zhou in You Are Mine (2023) - tried and failed & Charlie in Pit Babe (2023) - successful) and/or manipulation (Color Recipe by Harada).

Seme won’t take no for an answer because his needs are too great and his needs take precedence (he’s “the man” after all) and the uke is just TOO CUTE how could anyone resist? (After all the seme is only gay for this one guy because he is so cute. Everything, therefor, is the uke and his cutenesses’ fault.)

Moreover, P’AbsoluteBL is probably not aware of kawai seme who employ their cuteness to get uke to lower the guard and to seduce. Cuteness is clearly not a uke prerogative.

Like the sailor-costume wearing seme on the cover, cuteness is sometimes invoked through conventionally women’s clothing, cosplaying (maid, sailor, nurse), etc.

If the seme makes the choice to have sex for the uke, then the uke is not at fault and is still technically innocent. Only if an uke wants it, is he actually impure (or actually gay). In H4 when they both comfort and sex shame the bottom after the rape sequence, this is the narrative’s mentality. (A man who does not want sex is assumed to be able to fight another man off.) Oh and ALSO, the seme must read the uke’s mind and know what the uke really wants.

I don’t even know what went into this argument. There is an entire subgenre: 調教 BL (training / conditioning) that is focused on pleasure training. If a character (seme/uke/riba) wants sex in a narrative, it usually only means that their partner is on the right track. Moreover, when a character wants, actively seeks and are denied intimacy for manipulation reasons, then their partner is made out to be cruel (either 鬼畜 or ゲス・クズ).

In other words, if the uke is interested in sex, he’s made impure by this interest. Sex of any kind is an act of desperation and indicates lack of control and therefor diminishes both parties but particularly the uke, therefor the uke shouldn’t have to take responsibility of wanting sex, so the decision must be made by the seme for both of them. He is being a “good seme” by doing this. The uke, therefore MUST appear reluctant to have sex, or he is not a good/pure/virtuous person.

Honestly, I haven’t come across BL which gives off this kind of message. However, two-faced scummy characters (seme/uke/riba) get to employ hypocrisy, which includes slut-shaming, to humiliate characters they are shipped with but then such narratives are built to illicit hatred (for scummy characters) and angst and often punished with:

(a) unhappy ending for the couple

(b) breaking up of the ship

(d) switching within ship – uke turns into riba/seme or seme turns into riba/uke – or shift in power dynamics (rich character becomes relatively poorer, junior from school becomes senior/superior in workplace).

A lot of readers find such dramatic plots satisfying and hence it is a successful subgenre.

Can you guess the seme in these 20 BL manga? Try this quiz on renta.

Post #3: How do they determine who will be archetype seme/uke?

Discussion regarding seme/uke determination in BL: @elynn0723 & P'AbsoluteBL (intended and in italics).

I think your confusion is partly nested in the fact that seme/uke is not about who fucks who, not really. Certainly not anymore. Seme/uke are narrative archetypes not physical acts.

Disappropritation. Discussed above.

I should say for the record that personality is NOT sexual preference.

P’AbsoluteBL goes onto give examples (all of which are fictionalized in different genres – GB, BL, etc.) but probably due to being limited by lack of exposure, goes onto ask, “How weird that anyone would think queers do this.” Queers do this. If one is willing to look beyond LGBTQIA+ form of queerness (which is born and brought up in America), one can see queer possibilities. For example, Kothi-Panthi queerness in India/South Asia. It is probably a good idea to pay attention to it when generalizing queerness given how big India/South Asia’s (queer) population is. There are very many similar forms of queerness in other parts of Global South. In many cultures, sexuality doesn’t inform identity but sexual preference does.

[ Aside: Kothi-Panthi model of queerness

This model doesn’t work for whole of India – region (India is so big and heavily populated - different sexual cultures and practices); linguistics (different terms in different region, same terms different meanings in different region, decline of Farsi (used in queer spaces in Delhi) and other queer argot/cant and their replacement with American English internet slang); class & caste (LGBTQIA+ being self-identification of mostly urban/rurban, upper class, English educated v/self- identification common among the sex workers, working class and other lower classes in rural as well as urban spaces who are excluded from consumerist queerness);

NGOfication of queer movement & action; global queering and neoliberal take over leading to americanization –– intermixing & “gay” (and other terms) being used differently by different classes.]

How do they determine who will be archetype seme/uke?

P’AbsoluteBL points to narrative roles - who is “after” the relationship more, and then goes onto claim “the heroine is the main character, the love interest is her love interest. It’s decided for them because it’s a romance novel.” I don’t know if this helps explaining either seme/uke/riba archetypes in BL or pursued/pursuer. Aren’t there romances where hero pursues heroine and the other way around? Aren’t there romances where both party pursue each other?

Even if we assume that androphilic female audience is projecting the sexual mores & expectations imposed on them onto male characters, then by the very act aren’t they subverting those expectations.

How do they determine who tops?

P’AbsoluteBL provides the following schema:

seme = active pursuer

since active pursuer is “the male role”

he should do the penetrating

which has to be done

P’AbsoluteBL also gives a term for this association: heterosexual dysmorphia - "the idea that any couple must fit into predetermined binary gender roles". This is probably coming from a place of ignorance since the example given is confined to musings about sexism concerning the upper class in Global North. Also, at least in the ambit of Kothi-Panthi sexuality, fitting into masculine top-feminine bottom dynamic doesn’t place them into any predetermined binary gender roles. Instead, it only places them in the fluid space of multi-genders: can/are seamlessly float(ing) between being kinnar/hijra/ali and being “cis-men”.

If one is to ask the question: “Which one of you is The Girl?” to a kothi-panthi couple, the kothi would tell you without hesitation: “I am The Girl.” Might even asked you in turn, “Couldn’t you tell?”

Kothi [is the word used by] effeminate men who desire to be penetrated by "real" men whom they call ‘panthi’.

Queer Movements by Paromita Chakravarti & Aniruddha Dutta

Seme/uke/riba archetypes are imbibed with different traits and different spin on personalities that a seasoned BL sommelier might be able to spot easily but would confuse those who are less familiar with all that the genre has to offer. The following excerpt from an analysis by @ranchthoughts reflects the most popular idea about seme/uke dynamics.

Most BL shows can be read through a lens of seme/uke dynamics, which originated in yaoi. The seme is the “pursuer” character and the uke is the “pursued”. There are certain physical (height, skin colour, etc.), social (age, wealth, social capital, etc.), and personality (active vs. passive, extroverted vs. introverted, flirtier vs. shyer) markers which are typically associated with either the seme or the uke. For example, semes tend to be taller, wealthier, older, flirtier, tanner, more active, and have a higher social status, while ukes tend to be shorter, poorer, younger, shyer, paler, and have a lower social status. “Seme” and “uke” roles are also sometimes conflated with masculinity and femininity (semes are “masculine” and ukes are “feminine”) and sexual preferences (semes are dominant and tops and ukes are submissive and bottoms). There are also tropes associated with either the seme or the uke, like ukes typically give cheek kisses and semes forehead kisses. Thus, things like height, age, wealth, personality, presumed sexual preference, and the role they take in tropes can index the character’s status as a seme or a uke, and in turn the character’s identity as a seme or uke in the narrative (pursuer vs. pursued) indexes a character’s personality, sexual preferences, etc., however unrealistic and simplistic that is in real life. In a BL, we would expect the seme (pursuer) and uke (pursued) characters to exhibit most, if not all, of the associated seme or uke traits and roles in tropes, though this is not always true (and some BLs have little to no seme/uke dynamics at all).

There are two interesting things about such an understanding of seme/uke dynamics:

It closely resembles nenja/wakashu dynamics (and its cousins) in the customary and mostly age-stratified androphilia in pre-modern Japan.

Live action BL, at least the ones that were current and popular, stuck mainly to a single type of dynamic: pairing of one seme of a particular kind (スパダリ – super darling) with one uke of a particular kind (ヘタレ – milquetoast). There are barely any riba couple. It is painting picture of BL in monochromes. So much so that Bad Buddy and My School President were seen as some path breaking feat and a break away from “yaoi” tropes by live action audience, rather than seeing them having just another (or less familiar) set of yaoi / BL tropes.

What P’AbsoluteBL identifies as “heterosexual dysmorphia” in “yaoi” is basically what BL inherited from Japan’s pre-modern androphilia including “femininity” in uke from chiago, wakashu and androgynous Kabuki actors and (hyper)masculinity in seme from nenja and others who enacted “the male role”. BL did not passively receive any of these. And for moe, artists and audience alike, subverted it all.

This is true for all tropes that are attributed to seme/uke.

Height difference – Earliest BLs had petite bishonen pairings. Yaoi introduced height differences – all of them: tall seme x short uke short seme x tall uke (this is probably the most sexualized height difference) tall seme x tall uke (with little to no difference) both/all short riba CP/ship both/all tall riba CP/ship tall riba x short riba short riba x tall riba

Cuteness – Used to establish how irresistible a character (seme/uke/riba) is irrespective of their attitudes and behavior are. Oft part of seme’s seduction tactic, especially when uke has a weakness for cute things. Even when cuteness is not one of the seme’s attributes, it is invoked either actively by serving kawai in speech or through actions including cosplay; or passively like in the following example where a typical super darling seme, Asami Ryuichi from Finder unintentionally triggers moe in Takaba Akihito (his uke) by cuddling a baby.

Uke’s cuteness is exploited to establish a sou uke (an uke every other character turns seme for) or subvert the same like in No Money where one of the epitomes of bishonen cuteness, Ayase (uke), who manages to enthrall others however isn’t a sou uke as one might expect and thus subverts the wakashu trope. Moreover, Kanou (seme) wasn’t initially drawn to Ayase due to his cuteness but due to Ayase’s kindness that lifted him out of the abyss of despair, when Kanou was at his weakest.

3. Bulk – BL have main characters (seme/uke/riba) with varying bulk and body types. There is far less diversity when it comes to Live Action BL.

4. Blushing maiden/virginal innocent trope – applies to all sorts of BL characters.

Edit: Conclusion

1. Surprisingly, ethnocentrism and loud echo of colonial masculinity in particular seem to permeate the discourse surrounding BL.

2. I really wish live action BL would have as much diversity as other BL media. Why is it so slow to diversify? Is it because of business interests? Is sticking to super darling X milquetoast pairing with royal road progression a sensible business decision? Or is sexism promoting wrong impressions of what audience want?

3. How come the Japanese terms "seme" & "uke" are used a lot but not "riba"? Where did live action BL audience learn these terms?

***

Yaoi = [how P'AbsoluteBL uses it] synonym for ボーイズラブ (boys love) manga.

= [popular use in anglophone BL manga fandom] BL manga with explicit content; as opposed to shonen ai.

= [original meaning] derivative works, which were mostly plot-what-plot type, that are self-published (doujinshi)

Answer to a question posted above: Gilbert Cocteau – uke in Song of the Wind and Trees

Below is the seme: Serge Battour

from Song of the Wind and Trees

Earliest BL manga had very pretty seme/uke/riba characters (if we are to call them so) and were not too preoccupied with "manliness" or a single type of "masculinity". But, they were surely obsessed with bishonen.

[1] 互攻 is also used to indicate POV switching between gong and shou in fiction.

[2] 纯爱 is also used to indicates asexual androphilia.

CP/pairing - involves 2 characters. Ship - involves 2 or more characters.

Inviting @waitmyturtles and @lurkingshan to share your thoughts if any (since I have noticed you guys use the terms "seme" & "uke" as well). Hope you guys don't mind the mention.

#japanese bl #boys love #bl history #thai bl #chinese bl #danmei #bl trivia #bl tropes #seme/uke #seme #uke #riba #korean bl #taiwanese bl

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antimony-medusa · 8 months

Text

Think: Does This Relationship Need To Be Family Dynamic??

Okay so people more articulate than me have made posts about how imediately family-coding and aging down characters and saying "this is the child and this is the DAD" is infantilization, and it's really fucking blatant when you do it to women, and it's really fucking glaring when you do it to disabled women. MCYT has the idea that family dynamic The Superior Dynamic and couldn't possibly be objectionable, but like, it is often straight up disrespectful. We are talking about adults. They are adults. Stop assigning them baby.

I have bitten the bullet and gone GUYS I AM BEGGING YOU and mentioned that Daddy Kink is a thing that is popular out in the world and that immediately fixating on one character as a Daddy and one as a Little is actually the opposite of trying to come up with a non-shipping option. Like I am not judging here if that's what floats yoru boat, but at some point you are putting kink posts in the main tag, even if it's not overtly sexual, and some of these posts I am only calling deniably non-sexual because you HAVE to know what you're doing.

But even aside from all of these things, someone brought something up in GC today that I think is worth mentioning. QSMP is an international server drawing from a lot of different cultures, and a focus on a nuclear family dynamic, with everyone being father-son or brother-sister to each other, is a really Western concept of what relationships are important. Kinship ties beyond the nuclear family are an important thing in a lot of cultures, and extended family is a thing (cousins, anyone?), and community ties are a thing (it takes a village?), and people choosing to be part of a sect or group is a thing (they have the ordem right there!), and esprit de corps is a thing (you try and tell me codebreakers don't have a warriors bond) and insisting that everyone is in a strict nuclear family is just an incredibly 1950s america way to view things. It's a narrowing of the possibilities in the relationships. I think we can do better than enforcing our cultural views on what relationshps are at the top of the hiarchy just like, across the board.

So like, okay, maybe you don't want to ship characters. That's awesome. That's fine. Shipping is not mandatory. Instead of always saying "they're brother-sister" because you want to celebrate their relationship, maybe consider sometimes letting them just be epic friends, or close connections where you're the Tia of his children but there's no blood there, or a qpr knot where you have important bonds with people but no formal romantic ties, or take one of the relationship types mentioned above.

Like, I have my woes with family dynamic especially because of the first two points and because I find it tends to strip characters down to archetypes which I'm not into, but also I'm very aware that it can be done in such a way that it respects everyone involved and is great. I am not arguing that family dynamic is inherently problematic. But there are some significant pitfalls with using it, and I'm really asking you to consider the implications of what you're messaging before you start sticking people in a family format.

#qsmp #and I personally read some painful kidfic in a different fandom now so even me as an avowed kidfic enjoyer is like goddamn #when you reduce a character down to Baby with no character and Dad with no character #that's not good writing #Maybe celebrate the actual character a little more?#qsmpblr #discourse #fandom meta

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