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#wow this is so goncharov (1973)!
lollipopsie · 1 year
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"You're fascinating."
the world if katya survived [image of katya and sofia getting gay married in greece]
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there-goes-trouble · 1 year
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can't believe they almost cast Elvis Presley instead of Robert De Niro in Goncharov like what a different film that would have been
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mossyfella · 1 year
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idk if i’m just imagining it but. i feel like there was like a Goncharov anime/manga adaptation???? like i think the main story was the same but there was definitely a lot more focus on the homoerotic tension??? idk if this was something that actually happened but i feel like one of my friends in middle school was obsessed with it for awhile so if anyone else remembers this lmk!!!
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nautilusopus · 1 year
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okay FIIIIIINE i'll throw my hat into the Goncharov ring
Been a while i've done a proper movie breakdown, may as well be this one.
Rather surprisingly (but perhaps not too surprisingly given the unexpected renaissance of things like the original Dracula and Breaking Bad on this website out of seemingly nowhere and with very little prompting), I'm seeing a lot of new people suddenly interested in Martin Scorsese's seminal film classic Goncharov, originally released in 1973. Obviously a movie like that doesn't make it coming up on 50 years without generating a lot of discussion about the different ways the movie resonates and why, but coming into it in 2022 there's been so much cultural cruft that's collected around Goncharov that (similar to stories like Fight Club and Scarface) it's a little hard to parse what it's actually about with all the mythologising that's gone on around the characters.
Those movies, in one way or another, are about portraying the downfall of their protagonists -- Fight Club's after ironically creating another system of control and dehumanisation and becoming what he sought to destroy, Scarface's after being consumed by the wealth and power he's amassed. A lot of people assume it's that kind of story, because aren't most well-loved movies? However, I think this is ironically an assumption made because of the genre of film it is. All the people that aren't going, "OMG Goncharov is so cool and badass and fucks bitches," are going, "WOW I can't believe Goncharov is a cautionary tale about power corrupting," and in the process people miss that Goncharov is first and foremost about loss, in all its different forms.
I'm both kind of surprised and frustrated people miss this, given how utterly pervasive the movie is with its clock symbolism -- it's the one thing everyone remembers about it, it was in all the tie-ins. I dunno, maybe that got funneled back into the theory where they're meant to reinforce how Goncharov is just a mortal man at the end of the day, which is fine I guess, but the movie overall becomes a lot clearer when you interpret it through the lens of, "These things are gone and you can never get them back; clocks don't go backwards."
One of the most fascinating things about the movie is how every character embodies a different kind of loss. I'm gonna ease into this and start not with Goncharov but with:
Rybak, who is usually associated with loss as we typically think of it, i.e. the loss of loved ones via death. This comes up all the time, either in his trust issues (why he's being such a prick at the wedding), in the card game (he never bothers to bet much money, knowing he's bad at poker, and still loses all the same). Rybak is terrified of loss, cannot manage it, and ultimately is punished by losing what few people he had left and then being spared by Lorenzo who deems him punished enough, and is forced to survive, to grapple with what his life is now without them.
Goncharov's is actually more subtle, and it's loss of small, insignificant things as a result of the larger losses he believes he's processed. This is something that's frequently contrasted against Rybak. The pawn shop going under is actually a microcosm of this whole thing. Goncharov anticipates that this is obviously going to lead to financial issues for him, plans accordingly to deal with this, and... it works! He's saved! Except that means card games can't be hosted at his place anymore, given it's burned to the ground. Does this matter, in the grand scheme of his life? No, of course not. Poker night still gets had all the same. But it is different now, and always will be. Little things like this continue to add up, until something as insignificant as a towel -- a towel that never should have been in his room, but Sofia is no longer there to drop off his laundry and chat with him -- is ultimately the final nail in a coffin built of insignificant splinters, each one an imperceptible change underneath the much more larger, noticeable story beats of things like grief.
Otto is the big obvious one I'm not gonna linger on: loss of his youth, moments in the past that he wants to redo but can't. Most people at least seem to have gotten this one.
(This is also what the clocks get associated with a lot, which again, doesn't NOT make sense but also if it were just for this one character that, while thematically important, was honestly just a side character with limited screentime and only two scenes, would they really be all over the movie before Otto's name is even mentioned?)
Sofia's a bit abstract, and is the loss of self -- of the familiar anchors we have to who we are, what we think our core principles are, our place in society, who we want to be to our loved ones -- and by the time she dies she is rendered utterly unrecognisable to herself, and is horrified by it. She grieves herself the same way Rybak grieves his wife (even gets a direct visual callback via the way her face is lit when she's burning Lorenzo's check). You see echoes of this in Goncharov as well, but while Sofia is grieving the person she used to be, Goncharov is grieving the world around him (even though really, it's the same world it always was -- time keeps ticking on, one second per second, and neither one of them can ever un-fire that gun).
Lorenzo, tragically, gradually loses his freedom (and maybe in a parallel world would actually be the protagonist of a movie where he chokes on his own hubris like everyone seems to think Goncharov is GRUMBLE GRUMBLE). As he comes into his own more and more by his family's legacy, he is afforded fewer and fewer options about what decisions he can even make. Arguably he was doomed from the start, but the further he clings to power as a means to freedom, the more it drives him to destroying everything he ever (thought he) cared about. The tragedy of his character, and what makes him a good villain, is that he can clearly see what he is doing to himself and he absolutely hates it (his walking out early at the wedding is a tacit admission of this), but his absolute refusal to accept loss, to accept grief and pain and all the awful shit that comes with the human condition, is what causes him to toss aside every out he has because if he has enough CONTROL over his situation, surely he will never have to lose anything ever again. But, really, he already has.
I dunno. Goncharov is one of those movies that is great, and everyone seems to realise it's great, but nobody ever really puts into words why, and that's how you get Fight Club fans lmao. And it sucks because the actual discussion around the movie beyond "it's another hubris story but REALLY GOOD guys" is so much more fascinating and a much more earnest emotional truth that just never gets talked about.
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rismrus · 1 year
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Goncharov Soundtrack
Can't believe I actually found this! This was my favorite song on the whole Goncharov (1973) soundtrack so somber, and following such a powerful death just wow hope more of the Goncharov soundtrack gets found because the music is wonderfull!
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zorlok-if · 1 year
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Sharing the the dark theme's mobile UI and what I consider to be one of the cooler features of my Goncharov game jam entry (now called Creating Goncharov).
Early on the game asks you to sign into your work computer. If you input a certain name, well... the game adjusts accordingly.
IDs/transcriptions in alt text and below pictures.
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[image 1: A screenshot from Creating Goncharov of a passage designed to look like a computer sign-in screen. The name that's been entered is "Martin Scorsese". /end ID]
[image 2: A screenshot from Creating Goncharov of a passage designed to look like an email. The email is titled "New Assignment" and is being sent from "Boss" to "Martin Scorsese". The body of the email reads: "Good morning, Mr. Scorsese. I have a very exciting opportunity for you. Later today I'll be pitching a new film—specifically a Goncharov remake—to a group of investors and, of course, I've chosen you to put that pitch together. My meeting is at 11:00 so hopefully you've arrived at work early. If, for whatever reason, you don't think you're the right fit for this project, let me know asap. I can easily find someone else for the job, but we don't have any time to waste. We are all very excited to present you with this opportunity and look forward to seeing what you'll do with this project! Let me know your response as soon as you finish" /end ID]
[image 3: A screenshot from Creating Goncharov of a narrative passage. The passage reads "You stare at the computer screen for a long while. "Of course I've chosen you." Why of course? You are a prolific director and any project attached to your name is certain to wow investors, but there's one big problem. You haven't seen Goncharov. You haven't even heard of Goncharov before. Whatever, it doesn't matter. Your Martin Scorsese, you can make a masterpiece out of anything. You'll figure something out. Even if you don't have a good idea for the plot, you can always call up Rob and Al, see if you can get them onboard. No investor would turn down a film with Scorsese, De Niro, and Pacino attached to it. You reply to your boss." /end ID]
[image 4: A screenshot from Creating Goncharov of a passage designed to look like an email. The email is titled "RE: New Assignment" and is being sent from "Martin Scorsese" to "Boss". The body of the email reads: "Good morning to you as well. I'd like to thank you for thinking of me for this project. I can certainly fit it into my busy schedule. You mentioned that you had more details, I urge you to send those along so we can get this ball rolling as soon as possible. This movie won't make itself. Yours, Martin Scorsese" /end ID]
[image 5: A screenshot from Creating Goncharov of a passage designed to look like an email. The email is titled "RE: New Assignment" and is being sent from "Boss" to "Martin Scorsese". "Al B" has been CC'd. The body of the email reads: "Fantastic! And thank you for responding so promptly. The details are as follows: You need to craft a pitch for a 2023 adaptation of your 1973 classic, Goncharov. We aren't asking you to stray too far from the original. Goncharov is already a masterpiece and our audiences already adore it. This is meant to be a celebration more than anything in honor of the upcoming 50th anniversary. We are very excited to see what you will do given the opportunity to remake Goncharov with access to modern technology, new perspectives you've gained over the years, and (if this pitch goes well) a much bigger budget than you would have had at the start of your career." /end ID]
[image 6: The continuation of the last email described. The email continues: "Deepest apologies for only reaching out to you now, but I'll remind you that unfortunately we only have until 11:00. If possible, I'd also like to go over your ideas and thoughts before I present them to the potential investors, so the earlier you can get this pitch to me, the better. Anyways, go work your magic. Not that it'll be difficult; as Roger Ebert said, "Goncharov is the greatest mafia movie ever made." Whatever you do, I'm sure it will be fantastic." /end ID]
[image 7: A screenshot from Creating Goncharov of a narrative passage. The passage reads "Wait. That can't be right. You read the email again. No, you read that correctly. They definitely said that Goncharov was your movie. Is that... possible? Could you really have forgotten about one of your own films. I mean it was 1973, apparently. You aren't as young as you once were and maybe it's been so long that you've somehow... forgot? No, that can't be it. If you made a film that Roger Ebert called "the"—what was it? You check the email again. "The greatest mafia movie ever made," you would definitely remember that. Right? ...Right?" /end ID]
[image 8: A cycling choice from the game Creating Goncharov. It reads "Yeah, you know your own body of work. They must be mistaken somehow or there has to be some kind of miscommunication. You did not make Goncharov. You're 99.99% sure." /end ID]
[image 9: A cycling choice from the game Creating Goncharov. It reads "Maybe... maybe not. They're probably mistaken or there's some kind of miscommunication, but you're 80% sure that you did not make Goncharov." /end ID]
[image 10: A cycling choice from the game Creating Goncharov. It reads "No. You have no idea. That was fifty years ago, it's entirely possible that you made Goncharov and have no memory of it." /end ID]
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My mom just walked in and was like "wow that's so pretty what are you playing?" and i honestly had to explain to her that i was playing the main theme from the official soundtrack to a movie that doesn't exist (but was released in 1973) and that it's called goncharov
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Why is Goncharov 1973 funny:
I saw something like the goncharov joke stands in direct contrast to the “sometimes the curtains are just blue” post which made me go hm…. Also saw people confused by the joke so now I thought too much and made a three parter on my take
Part 1: shoe movie funny
The original joke is that a pair of shoes invented an obviously fake movie, which is funny because why would a pair a shoes do that. The derivative joke is a person going “wow loser you haven’t seen this fake movie?” Which is a joke stressing how ridiculous it is by pretending it’s normal for shoes to advertise a niche obviously fake scorsese film, who isn’t known for gimmicky advertising, BUT ALSO a joke on how bullies could use fear of missing out to make people just pretend to have seen something that doesn’t exist rather than reveal ignorance (like the classic made up band name jokes).
The next step of the Goncharov joke, and from what i can tell launched it all, is a person making up a poster about the movie and going oh yes this very real movie. It has jokes about the mafia genre tropes (“ice pick joe”, a hot lady side character, mostly male cast, scorsese actors) as well as being funny because it commits highlights the same two juxtapositions as the previous jokes, FOMO and shoe movie funny, while adding the inherent funniness of someone putting in way too much work for a bit. Things like the soundtracks follow on this (they’re mostly funny because they take the shoe movie too seriously) and thus should be categorized as part of the third wave.
Part 2: sometimes the curtains are just blue
The fourth wave of goncharovism, which is the bulk of the posts and the subject of most discussion, is media criticism, content, and derivative works about Goncharov, a movie that doesn’t exist. There’s posts that read like actual film critics, lines that seem like surprisingly good dialogue, themes about time because Film Shows Clocks Means Deep, bad overwrought dialogue, and most critically, the typical tumblr engagement with a piece of media including meta, gifsets, fanworks and snide comments about how other people are misinterpreting the movie. A movie that isn’t real. It’s fake.
The joke here is obviously a love letter to and scathing critique of criticism- the fact that analysis of something that doesn’t exist reads like actual analysis that people unironically post mocks that a lot of analysis doesn’t engage with text but overlays existing biases over it regardless of content, and also that a lot of movies are the same movie tbh. Katya is being held to unrealistic standards makes fun of shallow stock feminism, “homoeroticism” points to tumblrs obsession with gay stuff that isn’t actually that gay, and all the fake and often bad quotes show how we love to feel deeply about stuff we don’t really engage with. It’s also pointing to how silly it is to put in this much “anger” and effort in and how enjoyable it is to do this, regardless of whether it makes sense. Sometimes curtains are just curtains, and sometimes a clock doesn’t fucking exist, but it sure is fun to say what the curtain really means is that humanity is inherently sinful and that the clock means that Goncharov and Andrey, two characters that don’t have personalities because the movie they’re from doesn’t exist, wanna fuck.
The joke is that it’s fake deep, but it’s fun to do anyways. The joke is that people are getting mad about “people” who don’t exist being sexist etc because they’re making fun of tumblrinas who don’t look at nuance and assume a very specific form of oppression without evidence AND that people would say that shit because scorsese bros ARE sexist. The joke is that we know it’s fake but people find themselves taking it seriously anyways because it’s fun to make up a movie together and fun to make fun of ourselves. I love it!! It’s great!!! But it’s not a declaration against that the curtains are just blue, it’s a satire making the same point much more joyfully.
Part 3: the reality of goncharov
The fake goncharov movie has trended a fairly specific ways: it has defined characters and relationships, a fairly limited cast in terms of people who matter, homoeroticism, hot girl with a gun, and a lot of foreshadowing. It’s very invested in Katya and Goncharov’s personal narratives despite the wide array of people on the poster. Other than that very funny post about a (fake) shoot out showing the destructiveness and hollowness of nationalism, it’s not all that engaged in systems or the mafia specifically.
And sure, our Goncharov is so narrow partially due to its fake genre- mafia movies are tropey and hero obsessed. It’s fake. We’re making fun of the “best movie” by making a fake tropey movie!! But half the joke is being earnest, and our fake movie is chock full of the tumblr beloved tropes of obsession with romantic relationships, with “themes” that emphasize tragic endings for mutual obsessions, of an absolute lack of engagement with systems while insisting we are engaging , and of a focus on two or three characters instead of an ensemble cast- a million people are writing a movie and yet it has no breadth.
And GET THIS- Goncharov is a real movie. No, I mean it. Goncharov is probably a Google-translate-error-caused misprint of the movie Gomorrah, “presented” by Scorsese while not being directed by him at all. Egbert’s review, so mercilessly parodied in Gonch-posting (or goncharosting, as I like to say), calls it “a curative for the romanticism of The Godfather and Scarface”. Rather than deifying a specific man, it is a series of vignettes about horrible violence that seems unavoidable for its rotating characters. It’s based on real killings, and many of its actors were actually arrested for mafia activities. Forget hollow themes- it’s a movie that’s harrowing due to its reality.
Which is very very funny. Like i genuinely can’t believe we made a fake mafia movie that’s accidentally about a realest mafia movie ever made that proves how much we don’t mentally engage with the important oppressions and systems in our world while insisting that we’re self aware the irony the thematic parallel the sheer “oh fuck for real”ness of it all i was going to try to say something deep but like can you believe it??? God playing is playing 4-d funny chess with every last one of us. Long live goncharov
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Okay I finally watched Goncharov (1973) and I just... wow. It's so ridiculously good. I feel like nobody's talking about how intricate those costumes are though!
I keep seeing Katya's dresses, but Andrey's midnight suit from the scene? It's not quite period accurate but honestly with the time traveler alias he likes to use it just seems so right. The way it perfectly fits everything but his shoulders? The tie with the barely-there clock pattern? The grey handkerchief tucked into the back pocket‽ Chef's kiss, Scorsese is truly ahead of his time.
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comphetsurvivor · 1 year
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i've yet to see anyone talk about parallels between goncharov (1973) and nbc's hannibal. it's so obvious to me that bryan fuller is making references at every turn. let's start with the most obvious:
goncharov & andrey death scene//will & hannibal in 2.13 mizumono
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in goncharov, our final scene involves andrey shooting goncharov multiple times. clearly, we see direct reference to that in 2.13 with hannibal taking andrey's role and will as goncharov. this can be further extrapolated when thinking of the overall arcs of each of these characters. goncharov goes through a spiral throughout the film, much like we see will graham experience. the arc of hannibal season 2 feels reminiscent of the almost camp-esque vibes from the movie and i'm positive brian fuller has this movie in his top ten list. but it doesn't stop there.
what i'm really interested in is a goncharovian reading of the third season of hannibal. while goncharov dies alone, we receive a brief flashback to him cupping andrey's face. as the film was released in 1973, we don't dive any deeper into the homoeroticism than this and the choice here was framed by critics at the time as a "final acknowledgement of the individual responsible for his corruption arc". obviously there are much more queer readings of this scene, as i'm sure bryan fuller would agree. i would go so far as to argue hannibal season 3 in its entirety is in conversation with the hallucination scene we see at the conclusion of goncharov.
at the end of mizumono, will is gravely injured at the hands of hannibal, paralleling goncharov and andrey. if we follow the line of analysis that this is a parallel, where is will's hallucination? what does he dream of as he drifts off to dearh, alone?
italy, of course.
season 3 hannibal shocked many viewers. it goes, as my friend affectionately puts it, "balls to the walls". suddenly, will and hannibal are chasing each other with the backdrop of italian art and culture. two men in love with each other deeply entangled in crime prancing around italy.... sound familiar?
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from a goncharovian lens, this makes perfect sense: season 3 as goncharov's dying hallucination, which bryan fuller draws out, breaths life into, in the way the writers of goncharov couldn't do in the early 70s. what if this season was never supposed to make sense? was never supposed to seem real? was always supposed to carry that dream-like quality that didn't exist in the first two seasons? because it's bryan fuller's love letter to the important queer media that came before it.
there are many more parallels between hannibal and goncharov. i definitely will add on to this post in the coming weeks as i allow things to sink in more. but all i have to say for now is: wow.
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strawberryjamsara · 1 year
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Not to make everything about ships, but Goncharov sounds like a scenario that could happen between Akira and Goro, like Goro is going on about a bunch of Martin Scorcece films and the artistry behind them to sound smart, and then Akira trying to one up him is like “Uh… but have you heard of Goncharov?” And then spends the night on text with the phantom thieves like “Hey wanna make up the plot of a movie? It’s a 1973 release by Martin Scorcece called Goncharov.” And then comes to his next time playing chess with Goro saying bull shit about a movie that doesn’t exist and the reason he never heard of it was the mafia destroyed all copies and Goro is screaming bloody murder in his mind but outwardly he’s like “Wow :) that’s :) so :) interesting :)”
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headlinespunk · 1 year
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@areyouwaiting tagged me for the 5 songs on repeat game :)
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allonsy-gabriel · 1 year
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babe are you okay? you haven't even touched on the fact that goncharov (1973) is an example of collaborative creation in its purest form. we are building new stories and new worlds together. we are looking at mistakes and empty spaces and deciding to make something beautiful out of it. this shared act of transformation is what being human is about, babe, and you haven't even mentioned it ONCE.
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#3
okay I am So fucking glad that people are finally getting into goncharov bc its like. a very weirdly sentimental movie for me? like my dad is really into mafia flicks (godfather, scarface, the whole scene) and we started watching them together when I was really young. probably too young? is 11 too young to watch a man choke to death on his own blood in a back alley in naples? whatever. we watched goncharov when I was 11, and I remember looking at sofia and katya and thinking 'wow, I didn't know girls could want each other like that'. obviously their relationship is problematic, but as a kid being raised in the buckle of the bible belt, any sort of gay rep was revolutionary to see.
my dad and I had a few years where our relationship was pretty rocky, but even when we could barely have a conversation without getting into a fight, we could still sit together and watch goncharov and have that. our relationship is much better now, but we still have a tradition of watching goncharov together whenever I go home. we've bonded over the movie that introduced me to a fact about myself that I thought was going to tear us apart.
anyways this movie fucks severely and I'm glad more people are talking about it
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trilobitelunch · 1 year
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I'm so grateful tbh for the sudden hype for Goncharov (1973) on here bc it made me finallyyy watch it! (yeah i only watched the netflix cut bc im lazy) And you know what the weird thing is? I realized I've already watched parts of it, but the French dub version??
When I was eight years old (so in 2005? wow im old...), my family went on a trip to France. One night, my parents were watching an old movie on TV and I couldn't sleep for some reason, so I got up and joined them. I thought the film was kind of boring and slow, but it still somehow made an impression on me and is one of my clearest memories of that trip.
And I'm literally just realizing that it was Goncharov!! I've been trying to figure out which movie it was for literally years, and turns out I watched THE Goncharov at EIGHT YEARS OLD?? How did my parents allow this??
And let's not forget: it was dubbed in French!! I thought it was kind of funny at the time that their mouth movements didnt match the sounds. Goncharov, dubbed in fuckingnhnh FRENCH... I'm dying ok!!!!!
So of course this realization made me try to find this French dub, bc I REALLY want to watch French Goncharov now lol. BUT I can't seem to find it!!! Not even a single clip on youtube!!!! I'm literally getting so mad over this :((
Does anyone know anything about this? Bc I can't seem to find any info about the French dub, let alone anything about Goncharov being broadcast on French TV in the 00's? (the info is probably out there but i don't know enough French to read it lol)
(Also I'm realizing now that French Dub Sofia was a huge part of my gay awakening lol)
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Cenerentola: Io chi sono? Non lo so!
Me: Wow, just like Goncharov (1973).
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zorlok-if · 1 year
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I just had to comment on how much I loved the small details in your Goncharov game. You're an awesome writer and all of it blew my mind, but for example, the way the emails from other people represented stuff in the story and fit with the idea of Goncharov and then when (SPOILER) they eventually shift from joke names to real names as the entire world of the game became more real, I seriously got chills. Just wow thank you creating an interactive Goncharov masterpiece to match the cinematic one.
Awww, thank you so much!! ❤️ I'm so glad you enjoyed them. And you are correct, that's part of why that shift occurs.
But yeah, pretty much every aspect of the game was designed to represent some aspect of Goncharov (1973) or the phenomenon of how Goncharov was created 😊 (like in that instance the characters from Goncharov going from being lifeless names to more rounded, realistic humans, or—like with the receptionist—coming about from nowhere and being given a name by people weaving the story)
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