#willel twins evidence
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I think I've found more evidence that this strange line in an article about a basketball game is about El feeling abandoned by her parents when she was a child (because they forgot her, and she became a lab kid)
...fell to his knees and began to cry as though he was a child abandoned by his parents
... I got down on my knees, got down on my knees
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Fun fact: In the original pitch for Stranger Things, El had a little brother.
After being rejected by almost 20 studios for the Montauk pilot, the Duffers were finally green-lit by Netflix. It was at this time that they began casting and then writing the first season officially, which included reworking a lot of that first episode.
This led to the removal of the brother reference, and with it, removing any sort of arc El could have had about her apparent brother.
But the thing about this moment, is that it might not have been scrapped entirely...
Going into the final season, no one can explain why or how El recognized Will back in 1x02. And while there are plenty of things on the show that are left unexplained, with a small portion likely left that way with the intention to uncover it later, what sets this moment apart from the rest is that there are very few possibilities here.
Because for starters, the story presents El's ability to see people in the void in s1 as requiring either a picture of that person for reference, or having met that person before.
But when El see's this picture of Will, she's never met him before. Or maybe she has, but we wouldn't know because they never showed us. They could have just not done this scene at all, given that it's clearly a copy/paste/edit of something scrapped from the pitch. Or they could have even still included it, but explained it.
One explanation could be that the lab had shown El a picture of Will before, similar to what they did with the Russian agent they wanted to spy on. But then that begs to question, why would the lab show El a picture of Will? Why would they want to see what he was doing? That alone is incriminating in and of itself, implying that Will is more connected to the lab than we realize.
The only other, and frankly most likely explanation, would be that El stumbled across Will at some point on her journey between escaping the lab and Will going missing. This is actually something that happens in The Other Side comic, which explores all the things Will may have experienced during his time in the Upside Down.
Though it’s worth noting the comics aren’t technically canon, and I highly doubt they would outright spoil everything in relation to Will’s time there, years before it was intended to be revealed. But still, let's humor this for a moment given that I do think Will's time in the UD is going to be very relevant in s5, which means it's highly likely they will finally address how exactly El saw him.
Basically, in the comic, Will see’s El walking through the woods, almost apparition like, glowing as she passes by, while also sporting the Benny’s burgers shirt. This means they would have crossed passed within a short span of time, between when El escaped Benny’s when the agents arrived, but before she was found by the boys.
Though it’s worth noting that we’re seeing this all from Will’s perspective. This means from the UD, Will was capable of seeing El on the other side, despite them being on different sides. And not only that, but she also looks back at him.
What confuses me about this, is that it doesn’t make sense for El to be in the woods, only to randomly decide to pop in to the void for a moment. She was trying to escape the lab and everything that came with it. I doubt she had any desire to lurk back there for some reason, not until someone encouraged her to. Not to mention, it would make no sense for her to go there and see Will if she wasn't even looking for him in the first place. And so this would mean Will and El could see each other, with Will being in the UD, and El being on the other side.
While it does seem pretty far off, given that you would think Will and El wouldn't be able to see each other from different sides, it is true in the story that El not only recognizes Will, but knows that he is in danger. She mentions that he is hiding specifically.
Which means she has likely seen him within the last 24 hours regardless.
This, in combination with Will being able to respond to El in the void at the end of the season in Castle Byers, when no one else outside of Terry and flayed-Billy have been able to, seems to imply that there is indeed something special about Will that makes him capable of communicating with El from the UD. Not only that, but El also seems to have an ability to be in this constant knowing state of how Will is doing, without even checking again to confirm. She's just certain of it. And she seems terrified about it.
Going forward, El never uses a picture of Will to find him. She never did. And more often than not, they don’t show us what she see’s either, not until the very end. And that’s the moment they reveal that he was able to communicate with her.
Again, there was really no reason to have El recognize Will. If anything it complicates things. But the fact that they chose to introduce this concept, with a scene from the original pitch that was related to El’s younger brother, with her pointing at his name cryptically, startling Benny, only to revamp it and have El not say anything at all while pointing at the picture of Will, startling Mike… It just really makes you stop and think.
Which brings me to the other aspect of this that might have people doubting, which is that El’s brother was originally younger than her.
We know Will is not younger than El, so how could this apply to him?
Well, it might be helpful to consider that in the original script, El was actually 10 years old, while the boys were always 12. Meaning that for some reason, they decided to age her up to the age of the boys, aka the same age as Will…
Ever since @erikiara80 shared this brother discovery with me, I have been sort of reeling. It then led to other little discoveries of changes they made between Montauk and Stranger Things.
It’s important to understand that the Montauk bible and the original script precedes what we ended up with in the final product, with it finally changing and evolving months, maybe even a year since that original vision. Even casting occurred before writing started for the first season. We know this because casting announcements were made in June and August of 2015, with writing not starting until August going into early 2016, simultaneously while they were filming.
And believe it or not, what I've discovered is that a lot of the changes they made between their original plans and what we see in the final product, have to do with not only Willel, but also Byler.
If you've read the original script for Montauk, you'll know that Mike's crush on Jennifer Hayes was focused on right from the jump, along with the birthmark on his face being focused on, which was the main cause of the bullying he experienced.
This has actually been talked about recently, and some of the claims people make do fit with what I am genuinely starting to consider here, which is that the initial plan for what makes Mike an outcast shifted.
I think when they completed casting, and started actually deep diving into what they wanted this world to look like, both from a short-term and long-term standpoint, they were presented with some pretty interesting discoveries, arguably already hiding in their initial plans without realizing it.
And this is where it sort of becomes a 'chicken or the egg' situation. Because which one came first? Byler or Willel?
I can't say for certain, because obviously this is all just speculation. But in the case that Willel came first, I think Byler would come very naturally after that.
The Duffers themselves are twins. Then they hire Noah, who is a twin. Then they're thinking and planning for El's past and how her family all fits into this, and they're thinking... wait a damn minute... We could totally Star Wars this bitch!
And then when they think it couldn't get any better, they uncover another layer that they hadn't planned or really considered in their initial plans.
While Will was always going to have sexual identity issues according to the Montauk bible, meaning that the writing process for him likely involved sitting down imagining scenarios that encapsulated this arc for Will from the beginning, they were simultaneously now finding very interesting aspects of Mike's character that made it hard not to at least consider the possiblity that Mike is not exactly straight.
Just think about it. The Byers and Wheelers are basically polar opposites on the spectrum of what a family looks like. While Will's discovery and acceptance of his queerness is interesting to explore because he comes from a low-income, single-mom household, all while having been bullied for years based on his perceived queerness, he also has a mother and brother constantly reinforcing that they will accept him no matter what. They've been sort of hitting us over the head with it for years, and so it wouldn't be very satisfying for his entire arc to merely lead up to something we've known all along. It's pretty much a given at this point.
On the other side of the spectrum, Mike comes from a more upper-middle class family at the end of a cul-de-sac, more aligned with what a nuclear family looks like. Mike's family is also presented as being more conservative, and while Karen does give that very queer-coded speech to Mike in s1 (I'm convinced they only wrote this after deciding to explore queer-coding more heavily with Mike), it also comes with comments from Ted and even still Karen that hint that they are probably not as open-minded and accepting as Will's family is to him. Which means Mike's arc would be a lot more about acceptance around him from his loved ones who we have been led to believe might not be as accepting of his queerness in contrast to Will.
And so as they're putting this story together, and they're being presented with something very interesting. Two similar experiences that play out in different ways because of the characters circumstances.
Will goes missing, and his twin sister with a buzzcut pops up and has the ability to help them find Will.
This leads to several moments where El is being compared to as not only a boy, but Will as well.
Now suddenly, their initial plans to have Mike's arc be about having a girl be interested in him and to hopefully have his first kiss and feel like less of a loser, starts to look a lot like what the experience a queer kid in his position might encounter growing up in the environment that he did.
And if you don't want to take my word for it, just hear the Duffer's themselves hinting at what they initially planned for Mike and the fact that it changed.
The changes don't stop there.
Believe it or not, 'It was a seven', did not exist in the initial pitch. When the boys went outside bickering over Nancy, they leave right after that.
Another thing that changed from the first script, was Scott Clarke's introduction:
And so you might be thinking, who cares? What does that have to do with anything?
Well, it's interesting because the line we end up with on the show is arguably one of the most on the nose Twelvegate proofs to date. Mind you, this is from the first episode:
Why chuck the original version, which was arguably more interesting and fascinating in terms of it hinting at the mysteriousness surrounding this story, only to replace it with him listing off tips about their upcoming test?
Well, I think it's the irony of it all. Here Mr. Clarke is practically telling us where to look to figure stuff out for ourselves what is going on, with all the kids filing out and ignoring him...
I relate to Scott a litttle too much in this shot here, any time I try to drop Willel evidence.
And the changes go on, as they obviously would.
Things like Terry Ives not even being El's mom, but actually a man who more so aligns with the characterization of Murray.
And one very interesting one I almost overlooked was in Hopper's introduction, where instead of a kids drawing done by who we assume to be Sarah, we actually see a picture on the wall of him and his wife and daughter... Interesting that they decided to switch it something that is a lot less definitive in presenting what Hopper's past looked like...
If you've made it this far, congratulations.
If you still think I'm out of my mind, just remember that El was going to have a brother in the original script, but they scrapped the scene and gave a near identical one to introduce her connection to Will instead 😘
#byler#stranger things#willel twins#twelvegate#montauk#as you can see#i am out of my mind#and i'm okay with that#i've spent the last couple months trying to make a video going over all the willel twin evidence#and i can't decide if it's even possible to do without going over an hour#like there is just so much shit that fits too perfectly into this family being ripped apart by mind control and time shenanigans#i hope to have it done soon#trying to make it less than 20 minutes#but it's probably going to end up being closer to an hour#especially with this stuff from the montauk pitch being added to the mix now#anyways#willel and byler are the curtain behind the curtain#if you are open to one of them#you are bound to stumble across the other#and they don't want that to happen#stay tuned for the inevitable twin imagery to continue in s5 related to willel leading up to the big reveal#bc it's arguably the most consistent thing about this damn show#and tbh this all just makes the queer-coding for mike in s1 a lot more concrete to me#them exploring will's queerness through his dad's expectations for him to do more 'manly' things like play baseball#and jonathan saying he shouldn't like things just bc people telll him he's supposed to#how they connect that narratively with the boys being at a baseball field when mike's being pressured about his supposed feelings for el#with the bullies showing up and literally being homophobic seconds later#the fact that jennifer hayes did in fact exist in the original pilot and was the girl mike had a crush on#only for them to scrap that and just make it about her having a crush on will...#never once introducing this idea of mike liking her...
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If you’re delusional over this and you know it clap your hands!
If you’re delusional over this and you know it clap your hands!
If you’re delusional over this and you know it and you really want to show it, if you’re delusional over this and you know it, clap your hands!
#stranger things#will byers#willel#el hopper#WillElJon#stranger things 4#jonathan byers#jopper#joyce byers#jim hopper#they’re a family and I have too much evidence to back that claim up#I can’t wait for family time in S5#Byler and Willel twins? I’m hyped#ignore my shitposting#it’s just living rent free in my head
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I’m obsessed with @wheelersboy’s theory that Mike thinks Will is in love with El. It’s one of those takes that’s so simple, yet so perfectly explains every odd little detail you couldn’t quite account for before, that you know you’re on to a winner.
I always thought it was bizarre that the Willel reunion at NINA was framed in blatant love triangle imagery:
If this was supposed to be yet another reminder that the sad widdle gay boy has fee-fees for his best friend, we’d expect him to be gazing at Mike or otherwise looking conflicted at both of them. But he isn’t. His steady, adoring gaze is for El only. Yes, he loves her, but that love is strictly fraternal, so why the romance symbolism?
Is it straight-bait? This scene comes after his thinly-veiled love confession to Mike (in the same episode, no less), and the Duffers and Noah both made a point of confirming that Will was gay in post-vol.2 interviews, so making the audience think that Will is in love with El clearly wasn’t the intention here.
The Willel romance-coding isn’t for the audience -- it’s for Mike.
We often joke about Mike being crushed that Will didn’t laugh at his vomit green socks, but follow Will’s gaze -- it’s a little hard to see in the still image, but he’s staring at El, checking to see if she’s going to heed his advice. Mike's discomfort isn’t because he’s upset that Will didn’t like his joke, it’s because he doesn’t understand the weird tension between these two and is frustrated that his attempt to lighten the mood didn’t dispel it.
Mike’s smart enough to correctly connect the dots by the time Will starts sobbing in the van though: Will is destroying himself in his efforts to be supportive of the relationship between his best friend and the person he’s in love with.
But heteronormativity and a severe inferiority complex lead him to draw the wrong conclusion -- he thinks he’s the best friend and El is the one Will’s in love with, and that gets confirmed in his mind when he catches them making goo-goo eyes at each other at NINA.
And not once, after figuring it out, does he get jealous about it -- he guides El into Will’s arms at NINA, he looks conflicted as hell during the “I love you” monologue as Will hovers over his shoulder -- he just wants them to be happy and is prepared to put his own feelings aside to make it happen, even though it would hurt him terribly to do so. Exactly the same fucking thing Will is doing. It’s utterly farcical. I love this theory so much.
I’d like to springboard off this by taking a look at what it implies about S5.
Between Will’s history with Vecna and the Wonder Twins foreshadowing--
--it’s looking pretty likely that Will and El are going to be spending a significant amount of time together next season.
So we can already see that conditions are perfect for Mike to go through a similar arc as Will did in S4: being a third wheel between his best friend and the person he’s in love with and feeling like he can never truly be more than a third wheel, leading him to sacrifice himself in an effort to support what he thinks they have together.
Mike is very much at risk of doing something stupidly self-harming in S5 -- this is the same kid who jumped off a cliff to protect Dustin’s baby teeth, after all. He feels like he has no value if he isn’t needed by Superman. And there’s a goddamn mind-reading despair demon stalking his friend group.
Of course, it’ll all work out in the end. He’ll be saved at the last moment, the truth will be tearfully revealed, and we’ll finally get that big, dramatic, affirming kiss for our OTP.
You might have noticed that everything I’ve said in this analysis so far is consistent with either Byler or Milevn being endgame.
Many Milevns and GA members don’t just believe that Milevn will triumph over Byler -- they believe there isn’t any conflict between Milevn and Byler in the first place. The lack of evidence that Mike isn’t into boys is meaningless to the heteronormative mindset -- he’s the protagonist and dating a girl, therefore he’s straight, therefore Will’s hopes are dead in the water, therefore Mike has no romantic dilemma to solve.
By introducing a misunderstanding in which Mike imagines that his best friend is competing for his girlfriend -- couching his dilemma in relatable heterosexual terms -- the audience will be forced to accept that Mike is experiencing a distressing internal conflict involving Will and romance that won’t be resolved until the queer truth comes out.
The GA felt bad for Will in S4 because they assumed there was nothing he could do about it, but they’ll be tearing their hair out with frustration at Mike in S5 -- “you’re wrongly assuming he’s straight, you idiot! Just talk to him and this will all be cleared up!!”
It would be an absolutely genius way of getting the audience to question heteronormativity without them even realizing they’re questioning heteronormativity.
Once Mike’s queerness is revealed, the parallels between his arc and Will’s will suddenly become clear, and the audience will realize that, despite his straight-passing invisibility, Mike was just the other side of the same gay coin Will was on all along.
[Part 2]
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have you seen @chirpsythismorning ‘s thoughts about Hopper and Joyce being Will and El’s biological parents? and if you have what do you think about it
WillEl: Schrodinger’s Twins
Hello, anon! I had seen some of those thoughts previously, but now that I’ve gotten this ask, I’ve decided to take a deeper look onto it!
So, do I think Will and El are biological twins? Yes and no. Not that I’m undecided, but literally, yes AND no. They both are and aren't related, depending on the timeline.
Looking at this post, there’s something specific that I disagree with:
“El nor Will are related to Henry by blood,” This is something I can agree with but ONLY when we consider Edward. IMO, one way or another, in at least one timeline, El is a Creel. There’s very little doubt about that in my mind.
However, I think she’s most likely the daughter of Edward Creel, rather than Henry Creel, and Edward and Henry don’t seem to exist in the same timeline. And I agree that Will is never related to Henry or Edward/is never a Creel.
So, Mike and El are both Creels/related in the Edward timeline but El is NOT related to Will in the Edward timeline.
AND
If Mike and El are NOT related in the Henry timeline, and El IS related to Will in the Henry timeline.
Then that’s how I can see the Creel-Wheeler and Willel twins stuff coexisting without Mike and Will being related, as even through timelines, they would not be related, as Will is never a Creel, and the timeline where El is a Creel is the one where she is not related to Will. This would also track with Will seemingly having two different birthdays (March 22nd and May 22nd)- one where he shares a birthday with El, and one where he does not.
If I had to choose between El and Mike being Creels vs WillEl biological twins though, I think there’s more evidence to support the former, although like I said, they can coexist when we consider Edward and timelines.
So, if Edward is El’s father in one timeline (the timeline where she’s NOT biologically related to Will but IS biologically Mike’s cousin), then who is her father in the other timeline?
This is a difficult question because we don’t know how many timelines there are, but I think there’s these options:
1.) Henry
Since Karen is only related to the Creels in the Edward timeline, Henry Creel could still be El’s father without Mike and El being related (and therefore without Mike and Will being related if Will and El are related). However, this would mean that Henry is also Will’s father if Willel biological twins is true, and it would also mean that Mike and Will ARE related through timelines, so I think we can write off Henry as being El’s father.
2.) Brenner
He's an option I guess, but I don't really see him being El's biological father (setting aside henry/edward/brenner parallel weirdness)
3.) Hopper
There is a line that I noticed when it comes to the question of “could Joyce and Hopper have had kids?”
Especially since right after that line about Joyce and Hopper screwing, somebody yells “WILL!”
So, in one timeline Edward and Terry are likely El’s parents, and in another, Joyce and Hopper are likely El’s parents.
There is no doubt in my mind that El is a Creel in at least one timeline. The evidence is absolutely there for it.
James has made some great posts about this resemblance here, here, here, here, and here.
And I think that anyone using the resemblance between El and Joyce as evidence for them being related also then needs to consider the very strong resemblance (and constant parallels) between El and Henry/Edward, because otherwise, it feels like cherrypicking evidence rather than looking at what the evidence actually is. I'm NOT saying that chirpsythismorning is cherrypicking evidence, I'm just saying this in a general sense, which also includes me needing to acknowledge that there is a resemblance between Joyce and El just like there is between El and Henry/Edward.
Hell, we literally see El with the name "Eleanor," with a blonde wig (like Henry/Edward), wearing a dress VERY similar to Alice's style of dress, with roses on the wall, staring into a mirror (all of Henry/Edward's mirror imagery), and then she later gets referred to as Mike's cousin in that EXACT outift. El and Mike are absolutely Creels in one timeline.
However, I think that El is Edward’s daughter, not Henry’s and that in the timeline where El is Edward’s daughter, Will and El are not biological twins, and Mike and El are only related in the Edward timeline.
Summary
Timeline 1:
Edward Creel is El’s biological father, fathering El in the lab as part of Brenner’s attempts to recreate him.
Terry Ives is El’s biological mother.
Joyce Byers is Will’s biological mother.
Mike and El are blood cousins.
This is because in the Edward timeline, Virginia Creel is Victor Creel’s daughter/Edward’s sister and Alice Creel is Victor Creel’s wife/Edward’s mother.
Their roles are swapped from what they are in the Henry timeline.
And this makes Mike and El cousins because Karen Wheeler is very, very likely Daughter Virginia/Edward’s sister in the Edward timeline (with Connie Frazier being Mother Alice), and so, if Edward and Karen are siblings, then their kids, Mike and El, are cousins in the Edward timeline.
Karen Wheeler is a Creel (Daughter Virginia)
Hopper and El are not blood related.
Will and El are not blood related.
Joyce and El are not blood related.
Timeline 2:
Edward Creel does not exist in this timeline. Henry Creel is not El’s biological father. El is not a Creel. Mike is not a Creel.
Joyce Byers is El and Will’s biological mother.
Will and El are twins/blood related.
Mike and El are not cousins/not blood related
Karen Wheeler is not a Creel
Hopper and El are possibly blood related, as he is possibly her father and Will’s father
Brenner and El are possibly blood related, as he is possibly her father and Will’s father. However, I think Hopper being the father is more likely, as he seems to be Will’s father in one timeline and if Will and El are twins, then he’s also El’s father.
I hope this makes sense. Narratively, do I love the idea right now of Hopper being El's biological father? No. But I'm confident that if that's what ST is doing, then they're going to do it well, and I also acknowledge that there does seem to be a fair bit of evidence pointing to it. Who cares what I do or don't like if the evidence is there for it! And again, I'm sure that if they're doing it, it'll be done well without undermining the found family themes in ST.
And I absolutely, firmly believe that El is a Creel in one timeline, and that Mike is also very likely a Creel in that same timeline. Will is never a Creel, though.
This theory combines the Wheeler-Creel analysis with Jo’s “Willel twins,” analysis which, frankly, I think is the best way to approach this because it means we don’t have to ignore any evidence (such as all of the things that point to El being a Creel AND all of the things that point to Willel twins).
As well, I also think there’s a chance that Will and El aren’t related in any timeline and that El is Edward’s daughter in one timeline and Henry’s in another (and Will and El are never related so Mike and Will still are never be related) and that Hopper is simply Will’s biological father, not El’s, but right now I’m leaning towards what I laid out in this post with twins in one timeline vs not twins in another.
Also, if anyone is still confused about what the hell I’m talking about with Edward Creel, where he came from, how Karen and the Wheelers etc play into it, you can find a post explaining Edward here. And here is the initial post about Karen Wheeler being Daughter Virginia from the Edward timeline.
#stranger things#edward creel#eleanor creel#mike creeler#willel twins#st anons#st asks#st analysis#st creel timeline weirdness
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Willel and swing sets
I have many analyses in my drafts. I’m gonna start with this.
Swing sets = twin imagery. But I think they also use them to imply that something bad happened to one of the twins. Or simply that Will and Eleven couldn’t grow up together.
Season 1 (Jo noticed the swing set in this season!)
Edit: a junk yard with cars. Kayla thinks this connectes Lonnie, who dresses like a mechanic and likes fixing cars, to the twins and the original timeline
Interesting that this is the only time both swings are gone. In fact, this is when the kids can’t find Eleven and Will is lost in the UD. Both twins are missing.
Season 2
The shed scene is not the first time we hear about swings. And what happens when El sees this mom and her daughter imo proves that this is about her.
The swing that “disappears” is the one the little girl was swinging on.
Then, in the shed scene, Mike says that Will was swinging alone. Another hint. Will wasn’t supposed to be alone.
Also, Will and Mike met the first day of kindergarten, so when they were five, right? In 1976. The year a body was found in the quarry. The year Will was scared about something (S1 flashback)
I’m not sure what it means tho, because I think El was taken when she was born and never grew up with Will. I don’t know. I’m still trying to understand why 1976 is important.
Season 4 (I don’t remember any mention of swings in S3)
Another swing set, plus a “rainbow rocket(ship)” in the playground in front of the Creel House. This is definitely about Will’s memories.
Once again, something’s wrong with one of the swings. It’s broken.
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Boxes and memories
I think there is a connection between the boxes we see in the Byers house, Hopper’s cabin and Terry’s house.
The Byers box
In that box they keep their photos. Their memories. No photo of Lonnie tho. There’s even a pic of the library (the foreshadowing!) but no Lonnie, lol.
Jo noticed that we also see the box (and the christmas lights) the first time El and Hopper interact. So both Hopper’s kids are there?
EDIT: In S2, the box is in Will’s room. He keeps his crayons in it now. That's Will's box.
And when Hopper is there we see the other side, with two flowers. The red one imo is El.
I think this is one of the most important scenes of the show, tbh. We see the I forgot you birthday card (birthdaygate) the Will the Wise drawing in two different places (different timelines?) the They’re growing, spreading, killing, foreshadowing of Will’s connection with the UD and the UD spreading into Hawkins in S5.
And Will probably explains what MKUltra did to the Hoppers. One of those scenes they could use as a flashback when they reveal the truth in S5. When Will says that he knows things now that didn’t know before, and has old memories in the back of his head that are not his memories. Wow.
And when he says that, Hopper, for some reason, looks at the box. Will's box.
This happens in 2x04. But in 2x03 we see Sara’s box in Hopper’s cabin! So, his daughter’s box in one episode, and in the next one, Hopper is with another kid and looks at his box. Ok.
And yesterday I noticed that there’s also a box in Terry’s house. On the left, in the background (another yellow flower!) And we see it when El is going into Terry’s mind to see her memories. Yeah. They’re connected
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You can't expect people to take you seriously if you're not providing any proof? If Will and El are twins and Joyce and Hopper are their bio parents, why don't any of them know about it and why haven't there been any hints about it? I'm not even trying to be rude here I just haven't seen any evidence. Let alone strong evidence
I've gotten a few confused asks about this theory and how it just doesn't make any sense..?
I'm not saying that I completely understand the ins and outs of how it works, in fact I'm still completely immersed in theorizing and not being certain of anything! Quite frankly, I don't understand it (how time works/the rules of the game), though I think that's necessary because otherwise everyone and their mother would have guessed this surprise by now if it was any more obvious than it already is.
I also just feel kind of bad about spoiling what could possibly be going down, especially bc this would clearly be a series long surprise.
I've been theorizing for months now with @shippingfangirl013 about this. It started with us sharing thoughts about Twelvegate and just sort of piecing together s4 lab scenes and then eventually going back to the beginning to see what we might have missed from this new lens, that being the possibility that Will is Twelve. And that's when we realized A LOT of stuff has been overlooked from the very beginning, which provides not only answers to certain questions we had, but also brings forth even more questions that we wouldn't have come up with, had we not looked back further into the details in the first place.
She has a bunch of posts that are severely underrated in regards to this whole theory, so I urge you all to check those out:
Twelvegate Theory: Drowning in the Quarry and Will & El (Part 1)
Twelve Actor Resemblance to Young Will Byers
Stranger Things S5 Conglomerate Twelvegate Theory (Part 1)
Conglomerate ST S5 Theory Parallels
Also be sure to keep an eye out because she has some really big brain analysis in the works that you dont want to miss. I can honestly say she plays a big role in why I feel fairly confident about this theory, because I myself didn't really believe it at first. But now, after everything I've seen, it's kind of hard not to.
Even if you don't like this the idea of this theory or just simply don't believe the evidence presented that you've seen thus far, at the very least looking at this could expand your ability to look further at other details on the show and even pick up on evidence of your own. I find that more often than not, knowing about the existence of certain overlooked details allows you to find even more overlooked details that others missed.
For the sake of your doubtful ask, and for anyone else who isn't even considering this theory because it seems too far fetched, I'm going to share some of my favorite unhinged evidence for whatever the hell gate we're calling this...
But first, here is some basic context for the chaos that follows.
Something important to note, is that we don't meet Hopper, El or the Byers the night that Will went missing. We only met Will and the party. Instead they saved the rest of the main character's introductions (his family, mind you) for the following day, after Will had gone missing. This also means they saved their introductions for AFTER the big power outage that happened that night right before he disappeared.
I find this interesting because this choice allowed them to make those introductions feel arguably 'starting point'/reset-like (like in a video game).
You'll also note there is a 'Pizza One' box in that first scene when the party is in Mike's basement playing their campaign, moments before that power outage. This could have been a hint that the very start of the pilot episode at the Wheelers may very well be the OG timeline, that we've been straying from ever since. And so let's say hypothetically, if we had met Hopper, El and the Byers BEFORE that power outage, whose to say their lives wouldn't have looked slightly different...?
The first time we are introduced to Hopper is in the scene directly after the opening credits, which was right after the scene of Will disappearing in the shed. Hopper is sleeping on the couch in his trailer, wearing both his daughter's blue bracelet and his watch. We also get 3 references to keys in this scene (a 2 ft long key decal in the literal opening shot). And if that's not enough, what follows is Hopper getting ready for work, putting a yellow pen in his pocket near a painting of an owl, before grabbing his keys and walking out the door.
The first time we are introduced to Joyce (the Byers), follows directly after the scene with Hopper, where Joyce just so happens to be looking everywhere for her keys, Where the hell are they?, followed by finding them on the couch, despite already looking there previously with no luck (interesting Hopper was sleeping on the couch with Willel symbols on his wrists only moments before this hmm). We then get a shot of Joyce showing concern over Will not eating breakfast, followed by scolding Jonathan for forgetting to wake Will up, adding I've told you this a thousand times, before she walks past an owl on the wall in the hallway and opens the door to another owl on the wall in Will's (unoccupied) room...
Let me just say, for the sake of this fictional family, I hope to god they haven't been through this thousands of times. Though I fear they might have. At least more than once...
There are a lot, A LOT of scenes that go down like this. As the show progresses, we get a lot of references to time passing and confusion and impatience and it almost feels like they themselves know deep down this isn't their first rodeo, and yet they're still playing along bc how exactly can one question their reality?.
The problem right now for me, is that I don't understand the rules of the game. How does time work? What even is the goal of the game (to win, I presume?)? Maybe Vecna's having to keep reseting the time loop, to get the results he wants, and over time he's getting closer and closer to the results he wants, but it will ultimately (predictably) lead to him failing once and for all in the final season, when all is inevitably revealed?
Hypothetically, if this is all some game/pocket universe Vecna has thrown our core characters into, essentially surrounding them with 'fakers', then how do we know what is/isn't real? Or I guess whether or not we're in a timeline/loop either closest to, or furthest away from the original timeline? That's why it's hard for me to go further in terms of definitively piecing everything together time wise. Not only that, but we also don't even know for sure what Vecna wants from Will and El, truly.
But I do think that a lot of the answers to the truth are hidden in plain sight.
If you're genuinely curious, I encourage you to rewatch the show for yourself to see if you can pick up on things! Be sure to keep an eye out for keys and owls in particular. Also, El's flashbacks of Mama/the rainbow room might prove to be important... like, literally slowing down and pausing and screenshooting every single frame level important...
Who knows, you might even stumble upon a completely different undiscovered theory in the process!
On that note, here is just a slice of my favorite evidence in regards to this theory, that will hopefully open your mind to the possibility:
When Hopper asks about Lonnie's whereabouts, Joyce insists TRUST ME HE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. They made sure to keep the keys on the wall OUT of the frame in those shots referencing Lonnie by name specifically. However, when the conversation circles back to Will, and then follows after with Joyce telling Hopper to find her son, the keys are once again visible in both of their shots.
This scene right here is pretty epic. We all interpret Hopper's investigative skills throughout the series as him just being good at his job. But I would argue this scene in particular gives off very intense deja vu. It's as if Hopper knows where to look, because he's done this before. It's as if he's getting a gut feeling in certain areas that actually could be close to the truth, because this is his thousandth time doing this (Jesus, for their sake, I hope that's not the case).
Still, Hopper showcases a lot of unbelievable detective work throughout the show, and I think it could very well be hinting at him drifting in and out of awareness over the fact that he has done this before, which allows him to make such incredible guesses that lead him to the answer sooner than he would have in any normal situation (and yet, never too close...)
Has this always been here? That's what Hopper asks about a dent in the wall. We interpret it as maybe Hopper trying to figure out if this could be connected to Will's disappearance. But what if it's more than that? What if it hasn't always been there? What if this is a glitch in the matrix of sorts, and he noticed that glitch, bc this isn't his first time doing this? (Also peep the owl that shows up at the very last second in the shot directly below, with Joyce and Hopper in the frame, just as he gets the urge to check the backyard...)
This scene... This fucking scene ya'll. It just doesn't make any sense. This is one of several scenes throughout the show that have so many unanswered questions. I think it's because something else is going on that weren't not supposed to understand yet. That shot with Hopper encased in a rainbow is cool and probably means something... Hopper intensely walking into the frame as he steps towards the shed, with the upside down horseshoe above the door also probably means something...
Hopper literally walks up straight to where Will was in the shed the night previous, bc he's just that good of a detective. Yeah, okay... Suddenly the light overhead is blinking dramatically, only to switch off completely, which leads Hopper's eyes to catch this makeshift fort in the corner of the shed. Before he even gets a good look at what he's seeing, he's interrupted by Callahan, pulling him out of his deja vu state, followed by the light switching back on instantly, as if the occurrence was all in his head.
This also happens a lot, where our main characters are being interrupted by other characters, only seconds before they were close to solving something. And I just find that interesting...
This one is kind of peak comedy because, all it's doing on the surface is implying that Joyce and Hopper have a romantic history, but it also sneakily involves Will in the joke, as evidence that they have been intimate... The Chief and her, they've screwed before huh? ...WILL! That a 'yeah' or did they...
To be honest, I was really doubtful about Joyce and Hopper being El and Will's biological parents at first, even despite believing twelvegate and the possibility of them being twins. And this doubt mostly came from the scenes we get with Terry aka El's 'Mama'.
Initially, I had convinced myself it would be too sad, considering how much backstory we got about Terry. But @shippingfangirl013 made me realize that there is something very off about these scenes with Terry, that I think kind of went over all of our heads.
First of all, Mama is essentially the equivalent to the name Papa, and so we should start by unpacking that. Why didn't the writers have El distance herself from that exact association she links to Brenner, by just having her call Terry 'mom' like most kids call their mother? It doesn't seem that serious on the surface, but again this is a choice the writers made... Maybe it's because they wanted the audience to subconsciously associate those two with each other (Papa/Mama)? Also peep Jim giving Will Byers vibes, all lit up by the sun like Jesus (or I guess... God?) below!
The main thing I want to talk about though, is that despite Terry's vegetative state, she's still managing to give us hints about how she feels and what she thinks, with very subtle micro-expressions.
When she meets Hopper and Joyce in s1, Terry looks completely unsurprised. You could say she looks the same all of the time, because of her vegetative state, and while I mostly agree, there are some outliers in the mix.
When Joyce mentions El being her daughter, what we get is a reaction shot of Terry dramatically closing her eyes for an extended period of time, almost like she's experiencing frustration over them woefully misunderstanding the truth behind what's going on.
And I think that's kind of the whole point of the vegetative state here, that perhaps if Terry could say what she wanted to say, it would give away the truth that has been hidden all along, AKA Joyce and Hopper are El and Will's true parents. When Joyce then mentions her missing son, showing Terry a picture of him, this woman LITERALLY turns her head to the right, looking straight up annoyed... Why? Why would she do that unless this is her ?/? time meeting them, hearing this same old silly charade?..
But then here... THIS moment when Hopper asks about Brenner and Terry's relationship with him, that's when it gets interesting. Terry doesn't look exhausted over their ignorance anymore like she seemed to be in the moments previous. Now, she's back to her stare of nothing, and yet seeing this in contrast to her micro-expressions, almost adds a new layer to what this could possibly mean... Perhaps this could be hinting that Hopper is a lot closer to the truth than he realizes, warranting a knowing look from Terry, with her almost impressed, thinking Damn Jim, maybe you'll figure it out this time and I can finally be released from this hell...
This might seem like a reach to assume Brenner and Terry had any sort of relation beyond her being a lab volunteer, but something I think you might be interested in knowing, is that Terry has a little collection of Bonsai tree books beside her chair... Bonsai... does that remind you of anyone...? (If you check out those posts by @shippingfangirl013, you might know what i'm referring to...)
The fact that Hopper even mentions Brenner and Terry's presumed connection to him is just one other example of Hopper subconsciously picking up on things he discovered in previous loops that are close to the TRUE truth, allowing him to narrow things down quicker this time around, without needing to take all the steps to get to that point.
An owl behind both Joyce and Hopper here, while they talk about what allegedly happened to Terry and her daughter Jane.
And there you have it folks, the acknowledgment that the truth could have been covered up, the moment Hopper stands in front of the owl artwork (literally covering it up). Owls, which have been tied more than anyone else to Hopper, Joyce, Will and El (tying them together?).? Also the crib between them... Nothing to see here.
This one is pretty self explanatory. We even get a parallel to this in s4 with El AND Will, though next time they'll confirm Hopper's role in the equation. So, be ready for that...
These scenes are so important to this theory because despite them all being separated (who knows how many times now), they have this epic finale of coming together. We get these really heartfelt scenes with El and Joyce and Hopper, Will and El, and then Will and Joyce and Hopper, and it's all very emotional and just so much deeper knowing that the truth could be that they're all tied to each other more than we (or even them) realize.
11 & 12 between the two hands on the clock, in a moment that parallels X-Men and also the lab massacre (which presumably had both 11 and 12 in attendance...). Mike calling out to El emotionally the moment that Joyce and Hopper are reunited with Will. My heart can't take it!!!
Someone actually noticed this shot of Hopper recently, I can't remember who! But it made me want to go back to see what shot is right before it. And low and behold, it follows directly after a shot of the Byers family reuniting. Kind of interesting they made the choice to have this shot right afterwards, of Hopper sitting next to Ted (aka a dad), while looking lost in thought as he stressfully bites his nails, with his arm sporting his daughter's blue bracelet...
Not suspicious at all. That creepy shadow behind Owens as he makes an almost knowing comment about Joyce and Hopper being 'Mom and Pop', followed by Hopper looking like he's missing something...
And for this scene to follow shortly after? Hopper literally acknowledging Owens whose waving at him politely, and yet choosing to not wave back at him?... He KNOWS something is off, but he just can't quite put his finger on it...
As you probably know, most of the scenes with the birthday mug in Mike's basement involve either El (in s1) or Will (in s2-3), which is interesting considering the other few notable birthday references we get in the show, including this really cryptic sequence above, involve Joyce and Hopper...
Now, if you still didn't believe me about Terry's behavior being off, I think this piece of evidence might help support our claims a little bit more for you to consider. Because, why, WHY when El approaches Terry in the void and says I'm home, is Terry's response No..? Why would that even make any sense? Why would El's biological mom say No to her missing daughter implying that she is her family? Unless, she's not of course...?
Something interesting about the flashbacks that Terry shows El, is that they're very sporadic and hard to understand. Not only that, but we STILL get callbacks to these memories heavily even in s4, which tells me there is still something there that has yet to be picked up on, by both the audience and El herself, which is why they keep resurfacing in different forms. My favorite moment out of the s2 flashbacks though is probably this moment where it looks like a baby is born, only for Brenner to look back, like there's more to come (another baby?? TWINS?). But this type of twin imagery, only gets stronger in s3-4...
After 2 seasons of building up this meeting of these two characters who have been mirroring each other since the very beginning, here we are... Also, why even hold back for so long in introducing them? Maybe because them finally interacting properly is going to cause some things to resurface... And you definitely don't want to overlook these shots of Hopper and Joyce in Melvald's with two baby's in between them, followed by a shot of keys... Hmmmm.
Remember when I said to pay attention to the Terry/Lab flashbacks El experiences over the seasons?
Well this particular flashback below comes from 3x06: E Plurbius Unum aka the episode that was originally titled The Birthday, might prove to be important...
Jonathan and Will in a scene prior to El's flashback, has them situated interestingly between this Lucky Charms box and this Spill & Spell game, which is then followed by this scene with El experiencing flashbacks... And...
Rainbow? Lucky (Upside down horse shoe...) Enter flashback
I'm not going to be able to show each frame of this flashback, because in total there are over 30 different quick images shown and repeated...
And so, If you want to find out why this is the strongest piece of evidence for Willel twins in my opinion (brought to you by @shippingfangirl013's big brain), go back and rewatch to see how many times they show the image of baby El and young El in the rainbow room... Also take note of how shots of Kali (008) are interspersed consistently within this flashback, aka a character that is known for having powers to make people invisible, and to also make people see things that aren't actually happening...
Here's that parallel I mentioned earlier making a return, but instead tying El (and arguably Will) to Hopper being their biological father. Also peep El's bracelet and Will's watch being prominent in a lot of their shots together throughout s4, now that they share the screen a lot more.
The Wright Bros...
No, but seriously, Willel's bracelet and watch mirroring each other often in their scenes together, and by association also paralleling Hopper wearing one of each, dramatically showcased in his introduction to the series, can be something so personal to me...
THEY'RE TWINS YOUR HONOR!
This one really goes off. A car passes by a couple times during this flashback El has (IN S4), causing a shadow to cast behind Will, almost creating this duplicate-like effect... This is literally happening while El is having a flashback to her 'birth mother', while staring at a family (with their faces warn out/blurred) on a billboard, with an arrow pointing towards where Will, aka her twin, is standing to the right of her...
This one below has gotta be my favorite though. And it's because I literally remember watching this scene the first time and being confused?
Tbh, that's when you know something is more complex than it appears. Whenever something feels off within the context provided in the moment, it's probably because there's something deeper going on and there are multiple meanings at play. This means they're using this small moment as an opportunity to provide dual meaning in plain sight, that we wont understand the dual meaning of until later on down the line.
Are you ready..
Hmmm. I wonder what this could possibly be alluding to? Could it perhaps be the writers hinting at Hopper unintentionally projecting his own situation onto Dmitri? Is it possible who Hopper believes to be his child (daughter... son(s?)?) and his (ex)wife, are not actually who he and everyone thinks they are...?
Well. There you have it! These are just some of the many, many hints hiding in the details that point to the possibility of the Byers actually all being, Hoppers...?
For now, this is just a theory! So even though it's cool and there is a serious amount of evidence pointing to it, it will most definitely continue to transform and look different over time, the more we look deeper and discover more. Nothing is set in stone, for now it's all just theories and speculation.
Again, if you're curious about what else there is out there in regards to this theory and other possibilities surrounding it, please follow and check out @shippingfangirl013 posts! She was way more on board with this theory than me in the beginning and arguably still is, because I do still experience occasional doubt about it, for sure.! And so without her I would not have come to half of these conclusions! I look forward to you guys seeing other stuff she's discovered bc seriously... Her poor storage ya'll.
And also, if you're interested in the time-loop aspect specifically in regards to this, I encourage you to check out two recent posts I did about this. Part I actually starts with those first scenes introducing Hopper and the Byers and how other scenes later in the show parallel it. VERY VERY cool stuff, and tbh if you've made it this far, I think you'll be intrigued...
Time Loop Fuckery in Stranger Things Part I
Time Loop Fuckery in Stranger Things Part II
#byler#stranger things#twelvegate#willel wondertwins#willel literal twins#joyce + hopper = willel twins#also apologizes to the duffers#i do feel bad about letting their surprises be talked about IF this actually ends up being canon in the final season...#then again when s5 promo starts rolling around#people are already going to be speculating if there is evidence in promo#i know bylers will be especially bc we have so many theories already that anything pointing to them blatantly going forward#will have us literally jumping on the walls and blasting about how obvious it is#and atp i think the ga will catch on regardless of us sharing these easter eggs...#again tho#just a theory!!
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#byler#stranger things#twelvegate#something something time fuckery#something something it seems like lonnie could be both el and will’s dad…#however I think this could be a misdirect…#bc something’s not right…#I feel like if we’re dealing with a time loop in some shape form#apparently Henry doesn’t want Will and el to know each other…#this is what I’ve been saying about byler evidence also low key being willel wondertwin evidence#we’ve always associated Will going missing in s1 and el disappearing in s2#as Mike being able to handle their relationships separately and how that came to a head in s3 then s4#and how they did that to show mike can’t juggle both of their relationships the way he’s attempting to (el romantic/Will platonic)#but I think it’s actually also interesting that Will and el are kept apart for so long…#and then finally when they’re together it’s like all of these memories are surfacing for el…#around March 22nd…#and the fact that what saved her back in 79 was the memory of her birth…#I just think that’s so interesting…#in combination with the repetition of 7/5 test subjects tattoos being the only ones focused on in every flashback#and all the twin imagery#it’s like they’re subconsciously remembering each other#maybe vecna realized the only way this could work is if they didn’t know each other#even to the point of ‘putting them against each other’…#reminds me of that shot of 11 & 12 at the basketball game#but I don’t think it’s going to work…#I think Will and el are too selfless and love each other too much to do what Henry and the audience expects#el is also going to realize that she has even stronger familial love for Will than she ever had romantic feelings for Mike#and you know what this also means??#remember the crazy together scene? ‘they wouldn’t understand..’ ‘eleven would’ 🤯 SHE WOULD!!
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The last shot featuring 012 in 4x01 perfectly transitions into the first shot featuring Will in the following scene 😭
#twelvegate#im so normal about this#currently making a video with all the twelvegate/willel twin evidence#I’m only on ep 4x06 but the video is already 15 minutes long 😭#but this discovery was interesting#like I remember thinking the shot of Will where we creeped up on him was kind of odd#I didn’t even make the connection that the camera movement is identical to when we last saw 12#where he sort of appears behind someone/something in the frame#not to mention this scene starts with Brenner saying#‘I was never much of an artist’#followed by a scene featuring an artist with an easel not even 5 minutes later??#also 012 has 8 blocks on the ground in front of him here…#hmmm#i wonder what that could mean?…#also the el cutoff sends me#‘but he won’t show me’#no but fr they are not showing us shit 😭
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Credit to whoever sent me this ask!
#byler#stranger things#joyce + hopper = willel twins#+ jon#???#someone sent me this as potential evidence a few days ago#and it is kind of iconic ngl#still not 100% when it comes to jonathan being Hopper's son#but I am like 68% confident#bc there is cool evidence supporting it as a possibility...#what are they implying??#'i wasn't around for that part'#like.. okay#pls be a little less cryptic pls
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I had a dream about Willel twins last night. It was in a meeting room rewatching ST with other fans and then Hopper popped up on-screen in a yellow/red fit and I just pointed at the screen and gasped and everyone looked at me like I was crazy.
#stranger things#twelvegate#willel twins#willel literal twins#joyce + hopper = willel twins#the other day I woke up with new evidence#i swear to god
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Mom/baby references with twin imagery?
#stranger things#theyre twins your honor#willel twins#willel literal twins#joyce + hopper = willel twins + jon#twelvegate#the evidence is getting out of hand atp#also#‘For moms work that’s not what you implied!!!!’#sassy Will is my favorite Will tbh
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To whoever sent me an ask about my recent ask, I’m on media limit until tomorrow, so I can’t respond until then!!! But best believe I will respond tomorrow with receipts!
#byler#stranger things#twelvegate#joyce + hopper = willel twins#most likely me shitposting images for you guys to put together#with some guidance#I don’t want to spell it all out for y’all bc the evidence is right in front of you#seriously tho!!#please be kind rewind
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Willel truther anon here. Scary thought. Not Willel twin AND Vecna's children. Twins with powers and... and their dad is the dark wizard? I know this show is different but that plot twist would be TOO much Star Wars!! I'm all for Willel twin, Jane and William Hopper. Please, Duffers, be original🤞
Yeah I'm not a henry father truther, I think that the evidence pointing to it comes off as misdirect in the same way milkvan does. They gave them some superficial queues, and a lot of people picked up on it.
Henry's got like 3 identities rn as it is though. I do think that he is 100% due for backstory in s5 that will get the audience to sympathize with him heavily, and give us answers into how the lab's understanding of what's going down in the present, all goes back to the origins of the lab itself, specifically MKUltra and then the rainbow room. I also think it's possible that his familial relation is a lot more likely tied to the Wheelers, than the Byers or the Wheelers AND the Byers. I just don't see a point in connecting El to that as well along with Mike (beyond the cousin irony), regardless of Will being her twin brother or not.
Like this dude rn who is referred to as Henry/001/Vecna does not need the addtion of 3+ more titles. We have time for Henry in s5 and I do think he'll play a big role, but he's not the answer to every single revelation, with a different tie to all of them by blood.
There's too many signs pointing to Terry not being El's mother. And that means their mom has to be Joyce. And while I could consider Lonnie, there's a lot of signs he's also not quite what he seems and I think that just like Terry, he's a dead end. Terry was likely an ally in the past, and Lonnie was likely... not. I think he was an MKUltra experiment that was willing to lie and go along with anything for money.
And with them making a point to focus on Joyce and Hopper in the prequel, both 17 and presumably also alongside Lonnie and even Henry who was 13 at the time... It's very much giving Back to the Future shenanigans, ie. George and Lorraine vs. Biff fucking shit up in the bad timeline, taking the place of George their father... And yet, he's not actually their father....
I feel the need to make clear that, it's too confusing to have the same set of twins or even one child, be birthed from different parents, in different timelines. While I can acknowledge infinite universes exist hypothetically, doing something like this, by having El and Will be twins in one timeline and not in another and with different parents also, would go way beyond suspension of disbelief.
In Back to the Future, if the parents didn't kiss at the dance in 56', the kids weren't born, it was that simple! Marty and his siblings started to disappear in a photo together, knowing they would cease to exist by the end of the night if it didn't happen. And even though they do make it through, in the sequel directly following, Biff has taken their father's place. Now, that doesn't mean that Lorraine and Biff managed to birth the exact same kids as George and Lorraine in a different timeline. All that happened was, somewhere along the way, things got mixed up. And with the implications of MKUltra and Henry having ahold of time powers in some capacity, I think it would be easy to make a family or even a whole town cursed and tricked into believing anything (reminder this town is being listened to and referred to as being cursed A LOT...).
I could see maybe 1-2 more huge arcs for him. I do think that he had a a similar introduction to Joyce and Hopper into the lab (I talk about how I think they were involved here), but it's likely in his case, the lab used conversion therapy to take advantage of him and from his family that wanted to fix him bc he was 'broken'. I think it's likely his backstory is that he got out of there in his late teens early twenties, but ended up back in after a vulnerable experience in the world, and with Brenner and the lab taking advantage of it, luring him back in AGAIN.
However, I don't think this kid we focused on at 13 in s4, and who wer'e presumably going to see again at 13 in the prequel, is going to be revealed in s5 through 60s flashbacks of him turning into a sperm downer to birth a dozen kids, nor even just Will and El. I think he relates to them for obvious reasons being they are lab kids who think they are a mistake (queerness/otherness), and that was obviously being taken advantage of.
I guess I'd have to see what happens in the prequel to decide for sure how I feel. The prequel wasn't even announced when these theories started popping up after twelvegate. And so to have Joyce and Hopper be revealed as a focus was a little bit ironic to me.
It's canon which means that there are bound to be things that happen that have the potential to make us rethink/re-understand certain things we might have assumed up this point.
I won't rule out anything bc like yeah they could pull a Luke I am your father card (not literally, but you know what I mean). And yet, I do think there's heavy evidence for Hopper and Joyce and Will and El and Jon and them being watched from the very first episode, which feels more substantial to me given how this will all presumably go back to s1 and answering questions they left unanswered back then ie, Hopper in the shed lights flickering??
If the ending being beautiful and surprising was about found family, then that wouldn't exactly make sense, since every season has given us that impression, with it being obvious by s3-4. And so that's not surprising, as they've already been found-family in canon for years.
Whereas a family being torn apart by a lab via mind control and time implications, and seeing how despite that they still kept finding their way back to each other, that's beautiful and surprising to me.
I do think it gives Star Wars (+1000 other movie inspirations), but not entirely in the sense that it's going to carry out the most cliche trope connected to SW.
Seriously, I just rewatched Toy Story 2 the other day and that Buzz scene with his dad near the end had me dreading the prospects of Henry being El's dad. The I am your father revelation is treated like a big joke. It's like the first thing you think of when you think about Star Wars. The twin aspect on the other hand, is something that still causes a lot of debate and has created this sort of hilariously confusing element to the story, which ST, by using Star Wars as inspiration from the very beginning, means they knew about that twin revelation, and were able to subtly joke about it from the very beginning, making it even more epic in ST case than it ever was for SW.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.! Not sure when the prequel will for sure be available to the public, but there's bound to be a few important revelations necessary to be ready for what's about to come next.
#stranger things theory#st meta#st5 predictions#don't shoot me#i'll still read theories about vecna being el's dad#but i can't subscribe to terry being el's mom#it's not possible for me anymore#regardless#when it comes to the henry father proofs#i'll continue to be open to evidence for it#but then i also can't ignore hopper's dad deja vu i'm sorry#like there's so many terms and conditions for me#there's just no reason to not clue us in why Hopper was in hawkins lab for sarahs treatment unless he himself isn't aware of that#and so!?!?!?!? why save giving context about that for the end?#unless it's a part of a greater revelation?#i'm going to bed#willel twins#willel literal twins#joyce + hopper = willel twins#+ jon
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If Will is a lab kid, do you think he's always meant to be one, or is it one of those things that they decided to go with post-season 1?
I'm sort of undecided right now? Part of me thinks, yes definitely! Then another part of me thinks, maybe not?
It's kind of the equivalent to byler for me rn, where yes, there are several instances in s1 that I read as foreshadowing Mike not being straight and/or even simply liking Will. Though, I can't say for certain if that was their original intention (unless they admit it themselves eventually) because we know from what they've said in the past, they thought s1 could end up being a standalone. And so if s1 ended the way it did, without returning, then presumably byler wouldn't have been endgame (at least not blatantly in canon).
However, they also have said that while producing s1, Netflix wanted more background for the inter-workings of the greater story, so that if they did hypothetically continue there would be a plan. And so stuff like Eleven originally dying at the end of s1, might have been the permanent ending had they simply not returned for a s2. And yet they still ended s1 on a note that made her death open-ended, had they been given the opportunity to return.
So I do think generally speaking there could be a lot of details in s1 that were put there with the hope (or consideration at least) that the story could go further. And both byler endgame and twelvegate/willel twins sort of fits into that for me.
Though for the sake of this ask, there are definitely certain pieces of evidence from s1 that make me genuinely consider twelvegate as something they could have planned from the beginning. And not only that, but I think a lot of what happens in s1 ties into what goes on in the following seasons. So I feel fairly confident saying I think it might have indeed been a plan from the start.
One major thing I've been fixated on as of recent, is this consistent focus on Will's arms/wrists throughout the series. It's as if they're either very obnoxiously obstructing our view of his arm/wrists (usually his left arm w/ his watch), or they are showing them off blatantly in the frame (usually his right arm).
I think that this consistent detail, in tandem with the theme of time being central (Will's watch) as well as the references to the tattoo on El's left wrist/alleged birthmark on Will's right arm, makes a lot of these observations interesting as a whole, to say the least...
Within the first 5 minutes of being introduced to Will, he's sporting his iconic red/yellow vest and his watch. Within the first 5 minutes of being introduced to El, she's sporting the yellow Benny's burgers t-shirt, and not only that, but the red and yellow ketchup being the most eye catching colors in most of these shots takes my brain straight to Will (and El?). The shot of Benny with his watch in the frame is a nice touch, and us getting a close up of El's tattoo directly where Will's tattoo would presumably be (under his watch), is interesting, but it's even more interesting in the context of what's to come.
As of now, this is believed to be the first scene featuring the infamous birthday mug in Mike's basement, and it's a scene where Mike gives El his watch to wear on her left arm (over her tattoo), so that she can keep track of time.
This is the most unnecessary detail ever. I'm not even going to delve into it bc it's sort of ridiculous. Why even have Joyce say this, only to cut her off? Why?
This is probably my favorite example out of all of these, and it's because it was after getting an ask about this scene in particular, that I realized this is actually really suspicious. For one, it's the first time we're ever seeing Will w/out his watch in the series. It's a flashback that Joyce has while at Will's funeral. What we can presume based on the other flashbacks from s1, with Will at Castle Byers and then in Jonathan's room listening to music, with him wearing his watch in both of those, is that he was presumably not wearing his watch in the fireball flashback bc he was at an age where he didn't have it yet. So this is likely the youngest Will Byers we have seen in the show, pre-June 1982 at the latest (that's when Poltergeist was in theaters). But that's not even the interesting part. What's interesting is how in most of these shots, specifically OTS, they block out Will's left arm, while in contrast broadcasting his right arm in the frame. Weird how the first time they showed Will without his watch in the series, and they're making a point to block it out...? And the intense shadow in that third shot on his right arm also has me side eyeing...
Jumping to the end of s1, they make a point to show El returning Mike's watch before she gets into the salt bath to find Will. She removes it from her right arm, only for Mike to take it and put it back on his left arm. I wouldn't normally read too much into this, but when we've got time trickery/loop, Mike always running late, and Will might be a lab kid allegations all in the mix, how can I not read into this?
What then follows is El going into the void to find Will. Now's the time they make a point to show us the inside of Will's right arm/wrist, AKA the same arm that Joyce said had a birthmark? Almost like they want to confirm something they planted in our heads in the first place? And yet nothing is there, or so it seems..? I have to ask again, Why? What is the point of all of this? (+ reminder that Mike was missing from all of the reaction shots for this scene, which is odd...)
And yet it gets weirder. At the end of s1, when Will is rescued and reuniting with the party, they decide to also clue us in on the state of Will's left arm (he coughs and so he has no choice but to lift it up and put it on display... yeah... okay), the same arm they didn't let us see at the start of the season, but are now showing us AFTER Will's time in the upside down... Whatever I guess..
At the end of s1, during the epilogue, they give us a close up of Will's arms in long sleeves, which we have been lead to believe up this point now are both birthmark-less (tattoo-less if that's something someone was looking for...). And so okay. Cool. I can't say for certain why they still feel the need to show off his arms so blatantly like this (I do however have a guess...).
Onto s2!
These two images above are more so notable mentions to start of s2 than major examples. It gets pretty crazy going forward, but I felt the need to mention a couple examples like these bc they're simple and cute. The first one is cute bc there's so little of the main party in the frame as it is, and so making Will at the forefront with his little wrist out? Noted. And the next one is even more simple, and yet I love it bc of that detail of the letters spelling out "TICK" in the background...
This one is quite difficult to catch, but after rewatching and really trying to pay attention, I realized that what's being emphasized here is not only both of Will's arms, first his right then his left, but also in contrast, the doctor attending to him's wrists are on full display in both shots...
This is another notable mention, just because I think in general Will's love for drawing is something that makes these sort of shots very easy to overlook. Because they fit so well with the outright narrative, you don't have to read into it to appreciate it. However, looking at all these moments together, makes it hard for me to overlook.
And here we have another favorite, because this is after one of the most confusing scenes in the entire series, with which no fan has even come close to understanding yet. What I am referring to are the scenes at the Byers at the end of 2x01, where the phone rings and they don't answer it (Will is missing from these shots for some reason), followed by a scene at the lab with the lights flickering, then followed by Will waking up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. They give us this really dramatic shot of his wrists again, literally flipping them over to show off that there's nothing there... Why even go all out with this unless they assume that we are looking? And why even humor a reminder? Why make it a constant throughout the show, if there's nothing to it?
This is another notable mention because I think it's really peculiar how he kind of drags his left (watch) arm out the door, causing it to be doused in shadow for most of that shot. Though the next morning they show it off again. This may very well still seem not that suspicious yet, but trust me, this isn't even the most incriminating.
This is believed to be the second time we are seeing the infamous happy birthday mug, only this time it's in a scene with Mike and Will. I think what makes this scene so much better to me now, is how right Mike was without even realizing. The truth is, El would understand exactly what Will is going through. I initially tried to look into this scene from the context of arms/wrists and came up short. Though now, looking at it and typing this, I do think it's interesting they were presumably given the direction to cross their wrists over for that last shot... It could just be a coincidence, but a pretty insane one considering.
Just another iconic drawing shot with Will's arm dominating the frame.
This one is interesting bc it's the first time we're officially introduced to Will's feeling in his neck (head?), which if you'll note, he reaches to touch with his arm(s).
NOW THEY'RE JUST LAUGHING AT US!
Fair warning, it's about to get real.
Also s/out to @shippingfangirl013 who supports my Twelvegate obsession. We've been going back and forth for months rewatching. And I kid you not, every rewatch we're finding new evidence that support our theories (delusion?). She introduced me to a lot of these examples of Will's wrists being emphasized after we talked about the complexities of the tattoo debacle, leading us down a massive rabbit hole. Though these ones below are what probably take the cake, because they are just...
Well would you look at that. An extremely incriminating shot focusing entirely on Will's left arm dominating the frame more than ever before, and cast in a remarkably intense shadow, also with lacerations from the rope that was tying him up over his wrist(s). It means nothing...
Onto s3!
Also hard to spot this, but the final shot of the previous scene emphasizing El's left arm (wrist), where her tattoo is, along with her bracelet, sort of parallels the shots of Will in the following scene, which also emphasizes Will's left arm (wrist), where his watch is...
If you'll notice, each time Will has reached for his neck up to this point, he's always used his left arm.
That is until the scene at Castle Byers, which is when Will suddenly starts a new trend of using his right arm to reach for his neck instead, also ironically the same scene that Will says He's back...
This VERY much intrigues me in the context of the theory that Will was in part either possessed or at least guided in some way by Vecna to encourage the party to go to the hospital, where their ill-fate awaited them. Also somewhere they probably wouldn't have gone if it wasn't for Will bringing the idea up himself. There's already been analysis on this elsewhere, but the basics is that those scenes at Heather's house and the hospital, leading up to the lights flickering, and Will's blocking in all those shots/his literal shadow, is odd... (also I might be totally crazy, but these shots at the pool/hospital almost look like Will does have a birthmark on his right arm, arguably near the wrist tattoo zone... It doesn't look like Will/Noah has ever had a mole/birthmark in any of the shots focusing on his right arm in the show previously up to this point, which I just find that to be kind of confusing in the context of the speculation about a birthmark on his right arm in 1x03 by Joyce, despite that being debunked in the finale? Idk, maybe it's a new one? Idk. I'm just gonna try not to think about it too much or my brain might explode.).
Next, that first one is almost funny to me, because why does Will even need to be in the frame at all here? Arguably he doesn't need to be, but instead of just letting this be a shot of El and Max, they make a point to have Will's right arm placed directly in the middle of the shot (less the middle, more so following rule of thirds. Which is even more incriminating tbh)...
Not suspicious at all. Totally normal stuff going on here. In fact, look away entirely. It's probably a complete waste of your time...
ANYWAYS onto s4!
The wonder twins are now officially twinning-up after 3 seasons of subtle build-up. The yellow and red making a reappearance reminding us this is very much the same as it's always been, whether we (or they themselves) realize it or not. Both of their left wrists sporting some type of accessory, while also mirroring each other, is borderline spooky.
AGAIN, the unrelenting urge these Duffers have to make Will and El mirror each other...? Pretty remarkable if you ask me. Something is definitely going on here. Oh and here's a quick focus on Will's right arm during his fight with Mike... Idk doesn't look like any birthmarks in sight to me...
I bet you didn't see this coming, aka the van scene is twelvegate evidence???? I mean not on the surface, no. However, in the grand scheme of things, yes. It follows an interesting trend this show has had of focusing on Will's arms in a way that feels like they're hinting at something, while simultaneously keeping the truth just out of our reach.
And we're back to our regularly scheduled programming. You'll notice here at the end of s4, that Will is following the same late s3 trend of reaching with his right arm to touch his neck. I don't know what to make of the pattern they're going with there, but I do think it's interesting that there is a pattern at all in regards to which arm he uses. Am I scared about the implications that come with that? That this could mean Will ends s4 not entirely himself, at risk of being pushed to do things by Vecna, just like fans predict he was mid s3...?Absolutely.
It's fair to say I think this could have definitely been a plan since the beginning. Arguably, it fits quite well with David's consistent insistence that the ending of the show is beautiful, going all the way back to interviews he did to promote s2.
I do think it's possible this could have been a plot line they planned on exploring and maybe even revealing in s2, but once they realized what it a hit it was and that they would have to go another 2-3 seasons beyond that, then they presumably had to stretch it all out to make those revelations exciting for the end instead. And so Will taking a back seat to the greater plot for s3-4 makes a lot more sense to me, knowing they are arguably saving the most exciting and thought out ideas for last, which we know in large part all connects to Will...
#stranger things#will byers#twelvegate#willel twins#i will be adding the tags shortly#i just wanted to post this asap bc i kind of promised i would and it's late so#sorry!!!#byler#< target audience
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