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xoxo-ren-xoxo · 2 years

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Queer Men in Children’s Cartoons

idk if ppl have talked about it before but like... while it is great- seriously amazing- that we are getting so much lgbt rep in kids cartoons, I cannot be the only one who feels like there is a lack of mlm relationships still? And this is absolutely not me trying to say there should be less wlw relationships, nor is it a attack on the creators of all these brilliant new kids cartoons! Because im sure it is not their fault / they are just writing from their own experiences (a lot of the creators of these shows are queer women/nb ppl) and the very small amount of rep we get is still great, and there should certainly be more.

More under the cut

I’ve noticed that in a lot of cases, if a character in a kids TV show is going to be queer, they will be a woman (bi, lesbian, etc), or nonbinary (usually coded as afab? at least what I’ve seen). Gay men tend to be background / supporting characters at best, in a lot of cases.

I did look this up because I thought maybe it is just because all the media I’ve personally seen has had majority female casts, or something, but no, it was consistently true in a study I found on the topic, as well.

Link to Study (there is a lot of other interesting info about disability in queer characters too in here!)

Here is what I could decipher from this article. First of all, it looks like I was wrong, and there are more mlm characters than wlw. Looking at this graph, it seems like there are marginally more gay characters than lesbian:

[ID: a graph showing the sexual orientation of animated kid’s characters. Briefly, there are 50 gay characters, 49 lesbian characters, 22 queer, 16 bisexual, 2 pansexual, 1 asexual. End ID]

However, I started to think that this may be because the large majority of gay male characters are placed in supporting roles. And yes, upon looking further, it seemed I was right:

[ID: a screenshot reading ‘Fourteen queer cisgender and trans women represented 56% of the main-character roles, while queer men (though no trans men) represented 36%. End ID]

That is a pretty big difference. Over half of the main characters were queer women, while queer men made up only 36%. Now, this is taken from a small sample size, since again, there is not much representation at all to begin with, and I must note that this only takes US animated kid’s shows into account.

Usually, less representation for men and more for women would be a non-issue, and it is very true that due to the limited amount of representation in general, these findings could even out in a few years. But if the trend does continue, it will be worrying, I think. We have to ask ourselves what the difference is between gay men and lesbians, that make lesbians more visible in children’s media. There is the obvious history of gay men being seen as predators to children, and the general oversexualisation of gay men (not that lesbians aren’t sexualised, but I think the male body is also seen as inherently more overtly sexual- actively sexual rather than passively- which makes men a ‘threat’ rather than a sexual object).

Shows featuring male main characters are also often hypermasculine, making it more ‘taboo’ to make a character queer, which could explain the male/female gap in queer main characters.

Of course, there are endless theories that could be made, but I am neither smart enough nor do I have the free time to go on forever about this. I guess it is just something to keep in mind and be critical of when consuming children’s cartoons, and will be something to keep an eye on in the future.

#lgbt #gay #lesbian #cartoon #cartoons #animation #children's tv #research #discourse #i guess!#ben chats shit on the internet

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thethiefandtheairbender · 2 years

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not you blaming wlw for your show not being popular. It just came out, of course it’s not going to have as much attention as Steven universe. and why don’t you blame Netflix for not marketing it instead of wlw just for existing. also there are trans and nb wlw it’s super lesbophobic to act like the wlw community is uniquely transphobic compared to the gay community or straight people

it's called people aggressively go after / attack shows with prominent nonbinary / transgender rep in ways that they don't with cartoons focused on same sex couples (which, except for kipo that's mlm, are largely sapphic couples between bi and lesbian characters).

also femslash communities aren't all lesbians?? bi, ace, pan, trans, nb people w/ overlap? bi ace pan ships??

also i'm literally a NB wlw / afab in a lesbian (i.e. same sex) presenting relationship, fucking relax

it's almost like the way rebecca sugar got attacked and lambasted bc soo many queer ppl don't wanna care about unlearning their antisemitism / cultural christianity either (which "dead end" also has in common with a jewish lead character, wow! i'm shocked)

and it's not "my show," i've watched it for two weeks and there was nothing in my post that mentioned popularity. i was saying it was comparable to steven universe, not that it’s not popular like steven universe, are you high??

it's that i've seen "dead end paranormal park" get a lot of critique mostly for reasons of competing representation needs, which i thought we all understood by this point. apparently not

the way you're even separating wlw from the gay community without even mentioning mspec wlw people (like me, since i'm also pan and my partner is bi! thank u) or aspec wlw (also me, hello! ace & aro) makes me side eye u tbh. maybe it's time for you to take a look through my queer history tag and have a piece of bread so u can calm down

bc really, the fact that you saw a post about someone going "yeah queer cartoons that focus on gender tend to get a lot more critique than shows that focus on same sex relationships" (bc soo much homophobia is rooted in gender roles / gender essentialism to begin with) and ur response was to send anon hate seems like someone drank the tumblr terf-lite juice and hasn't dismantled that yet, bud

#thanks for asking #or not #anyway. wild #anonymous #would like to direct u to the lesbians who lose their shit everytime a someone stops IDing and #comes out as a trans man instead

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quill-and-chalk · 4 years

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Shows to watch during the Owl House Haitus!

We don’t know how long until season 2 of The Owl House premieres, but until then I know a lot of you guys need new shows to watch. So here are my suggestions!

*Disclaimer* I am only suggesting shows that I have watched. So there might be a few shows that I don’t suggest, purely because I haven’t seen them.

If you watched the show because you lacked proper LGBT representation as a child then try...

Steven Universe: This show has a wide array of LGBT characters and a complex story to boot. This show ends up having a lesbian wedding! Also multiple Non-binary characters! Plus it’s songs are straight bops.

Legend Of Korra: This show was one of the first instances of LGBT representation! While, compared to shows now, the representation is watered-down, it’s still a great show about a strong bisexual woman.

She-ra and the Princess of Power: This show has gotten some flack due to the POC representation ((As it should)) Though it is a kids show that made leaps and bounds when it comes to WLW representation in media. So while I can suggest this show, I also suggest that you do research on some of comments made by the creators.

If you heard Dana talk about Hieronymus Bosch and came running then try...

Scooby-Doo Mystery Incorprated: This show was fire! It wasn’t afraid to go dark on you, and it always had a good suspense too it. It was a unique twist on very well-known characters and diverted from the source material in all the right ways.

Welcome to Nightvale: This isn’t a cartoon, it’s a podcast, but I swear this thing is like if a Bosch painting came to life. It’s story is very sprinkled throughout the series so it’s good for a casual listen or an intense binge.

Over the Garden Wall: This thing is short but it’s so good! It’s just the right level of creepy. This thing doesn’t just play with the horror genre, it fricking juggles it and masters it. This show is honestly scarier than most horror movies, and yet they accomplish all this while keeping a PG rating.

Gravity Falls: Dana was originally on the crew for this show, and it makes sense. Both have similarities but Gravity Falls likes to keep it’s weird and strange as more of a constant background element, rather than in your face 24/7. Still, it’s a show that I don’t think any owl house fan would truly dislike.

If you came because you wanted to see a show where a girl got trapped in a unknown world then try...

Infinity Train: This show has people trapped on a magical train. This show is an expert at giving you -just- enough information. It gets to a point where, in the span of an hour, you get lost in the world with these characters.

Kipo Age of the Wonderbeast: This show is less magical and more sci-fi. It has a very unique take on the ‘lost in the magical world’ genre and all the characters are lovable. Also, the sound track for this show slaps, seriously I would watch this show just for the music alone.

Amphibia: This show’s plot moves at around the same pace as the Owl House, maybe even a bit slower. It’s an easy watch even though it’s very obvious that there is a bigger story a foot. Also it’s just straight up hilarious.

If you watched cause someone told you S2 might be toppling some governments then try...

Avatar The Last Airbender: This shows whole plot is getting a 12 year old boy to dismantle a 100 year old dictatorship so if that doesn’t get you interested then I don’t know what will.

Young Justice: While governments are never toppled, they are heavily critiqued. This show explores themes that aren’t typically explored in children’s shows, and honestly it’s a refreshing take on the superhero genre.

That’s all my suggestions. If you have any suggestions then don’t be afraid to add on.

#cartoons #the owl house #toh #lumity #amity blight #she ra #young justice #amphibia #over the garden wall #gravity falls #avatar the last airbender #the legend of korra #infinity train #kipo and the age of wonderbeasts #steven universe #welcome to night vale #scooby doo mystery incorporated

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fanonical · 3 years

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on the topic of lgbt+ content in cartoons, i do also want to express how sort of…disheartening? it is to see how fast cartoons have evidently progressed but comparatively live action, more adult targeted lgbt+ media seems to have remained stagnant? and like i obviously wouldn’t want it to be like a “we get one or the other” kind of situation especially bc its so important for kids to see this content and see that its normal and okay! but it just sucks being like 20+ sometimes and so many ppl tout shera as like a pinnacle of wlw tv shows if that makes sense? i mean theres some movies ofc like portrait of a lady on fire and fear street but i hope what im saying kinda makes sense

whilst there is definitely a problem with under-representation of LGBT groups in adult television -- it's not as much as you might think! there are still more wlw than you'd think showing up in TV shows all the time, especially if you know where to look (and especially if you look beyond media with big fandoms on tumblr). for example, i've been watching Feel Good (which features a lot of LGBT characters & themes) and Ghosts (a sitcom about living with ghosts that just happens to have some LGBT characters) which are both absurdly fantastic and i've seen barely any mention of them in fandom spaces.

i suggest opening whatever streaming apps you have and just browsing through the LGBT tag. there will be a lot of guff in there, and a lot of stuff you don't really care about, but i guarantee you'll find some gems worth watching that you're surprised seemingly nobody's talking about

followers, can you recommend our dear Anon here some good LGBT content that isn't in the form of a kids show? particularly some TV shows, particularly stuff that feels worthwhile watching beyond just fandom appeal/for the LGBT characters?

ps: i totally TOTALLY recommend Feel Good

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dyinginsideisfun · 3 years

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You know what. After some thought about Fake: the wrong drama, I wanted to make a post about the positives in it and what I liked.

But fucking then I had to see people judging, shaming and invalidating other people’s complaints about how the representation was handled (on all spectrum).

And that’s not what we’re gonna do in the shit year no. 2 (aka 2021).

You can like any media that has problematic themes, I do not care. I have my fair share of stuff that I enjoy despite of the problems.

But when you cross the line and tell others how they should feel, we have a problem. This might get long.

While I can not speak about the poc rep from a perspective of a poc (I’m a pasty white bitch), I can talk about LGBT+ stuff from a perspective of a bi guy who was scared for his life to come out until literally 3 years ago.

The only LGBT+ rep we got was Riven x Dane. First strike no WLW. Second strike, it appears like (IMO) the only freaking reason that it’s even there is so Riven can make biphobic/homophobic jokes and remarks, cause #cutonthatedge. And what’s even more fun, despite being treated like shit and a punchline, Dane is like “yes, UwU my friends, Terra was a bitch for calling out my absolutely shitty behavior” For fucks sake.

People are tired of (I’m the people, but I’ve seen others agree) the LGBT+ rep being used just for the drama. While I didn’t vibe with the last season of Sabrina, I really enjoyed the rep, because only ONE of the LGBT+ characters was used in a plot about bullying/drama because of being trans, later revealed also gay. But guess what, that character also got an awesome support network that didn’t take away the edginess™. Guess what more, there was more rep than just that. Characters that did not feel bad or was made to feel bad because of their sexuality. And they were awesome. That show was at times ridiculously edgy but did not resort to using real life LGBT+ issues for that. Surprise, you can do that. I know people are floored right now. What is even more novel concept, the LGBT+ characters don’t have to be villains or evil-coded. SHOCKER. Fake: the wrong drama got us one semi-confirmed and one meh-confirmed? LGBT+ characters. Aside of that one is absolute asshole (that’s it, no other traits in sight), the other is a pushover (that’s also it). AND THEY BOTH END UP ON THE “EVIL” SIDE.

It would be nice to have rep that didn’t need redemption arcs or that has a personality, but I guess that’s too much to ask for.

Despite sooo much negativity surrounding the trailer I was actually excited. Cautious, but excited. When I read about the female sepcialists and male fairies (ofc no nb rep, but they’re almost always the afterthought smh) I was like FUCK YEAH, they will probably change a lot of the plot and setting to make it more coherent (let’s be real, if you try to dissect the og cartoon it’s gonna be an absolute mess to translate into a tv show) but it might work out.

And then Riven’s “remarks” hit me like a semitruck. And I’m tired. SO FUCKING TIRED. That killed the show for me (alongside other things, but that’s what I most relate too). I’m tired of being given scraps of content and then being told that I’m overreacting.

In this rant conclusion. If you’re one of the people that’ll judge others for wanting a better rep and pointing out the problematic of badly written edginess™ (If you can’t write edgy stuff without resorting to homophobia&co, I recommend checking out AO3, cause I’ve read plenty of extremely edgy stuff that did not include that), please fuck off. You do you, but just fuck off of other people’s posts, that express their disappointment and such. I’d dive deeper into other problems, but that’s not my place, I’ll live that to more qualified people. Ok. Time to go back to mindlessly rebloging weird shit and pretending to be a bot. ✌️

#netflix #winx #winx club #fate the winx saga #fake the wrong drama #im just so tired of this bullshit

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kittytishers · 3 years

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reasons why i think the kyoshi novels wont be adapted to animated television-

its mostly just one actually- violence. (there are other reasons but this is the biggest one)

something i noticed when reading the novels in comparison to watching the shows is that theres blood in the novels... a lot of blood actually. compared to not a single drop of it in either of the shows.

something else i noticed? people might die in the shows... but the death is ALWAYS off screen.

all this is to say... kyoshi’s story COULD be adapted... but a lot of things would have to change. the icicle skewering amak. the scene with father glowworm. kyoshi killing xu. yun killing jianzhu. the scene with yun and hei-ran. the scene at the very end where kyoshi and rangi paint their daofei makeup with their blood. and im sure im missing a few!

to be honest most of the scenes ive listed can change to be more “pg” and still be just as powerful. but the final battle with yun with the painted blood makeup would just.. feel different if the blood was taken out of it.

PLUS the challenge of adapting a book format to visual format and possible censorship regarding kyoshi and rangis relationship (wlw representation in cartoons have a tradition of just being “hinted” at until its confirmed at the very end).

there are a few “options” in this regard then. make an animated cartoon thats pg-13, marketed towards adults. but then you hit a roadblock. unfortunately cartoons are just associated with children unless the jokes are raunchy and gross, which is never going to happen in the atla franchise. so make it live-action. that one is hit or miss. we all know of what happened with The Last Airbender, and we havent yet seen the live action remake of ATLA on netflix, but... i know a lot of people are skeptical. its hard to match the grandeur and beauty of a world designed for a 2D format in a live action format. especially with a TV budget. maybe the kyoshi novels could work as a pair of movies, one for each book. that, i would be more excited for perhaps.

or... they keep the animated format we’re used to and just trim some of the blood out of it. if bryke is heading the project i have no doubts that they could do it and still tell kyoshis story authentically. the question is only will some of the important scenes cheapen?

idk man i just want SOME kind of adaptation, i just also want it to be good, thats all. its what kyoshi deserves :’)

#shut up kitty #atla #kyoshi #kyoshi novels #trok #tsok

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horde-princess · 4 years

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I've been thinking a lot about that too. It sucks that whenever a marginalized group enters the mainstream media, it's done in ways that lack forethought and consideration. It's done in a way that pleases the majority, not their subject matter. Usually gonna be a violent, sad story. Lesbians enjoying that post sex after glow? Why not show them cuddling. Sharing their dreams, hopes, and aspirations? Haha nope. They're not straight, silly. Network execs/producers/ audiences can't relate to wholesome wlw content. Make sure one of them gets murdered so we understand what she truly meant to her.

Granted I didn't watch the 100, and I'm definitely not saying that portraying violence against marginalized groups doesn't have a place (historical movies) . I'm just saying it doesn't need to be used to make your characters deeper. Especially when the rep in the category is already so lacking.

Which makes me even more upset at she-ra haters, who love the fact that Mattel has picked up the old she-ra design for the new dolls. You know it's not JUST because they don't like the designs. They hate what the show stands for. And while it sounds like a great time to stand around and be bitter about strong women, diverse body types, and POC; I'm too busy having an AMAZING time knowing children will grow up having more WHOLESOME representations of different groups of people. Esp LGBTQIPOC rep. And best of all? Most of it is ANIMATED!!

Also if you haven't, give Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts a shot.

ok i am SO confused like how did you send this...... isn’t there a word limit kflkdj

anyway yeah points were made ty for the message ! we all have to keep fighting but the future is bright ✨ hm i have considered watching kipo.. im not really into cartoons she-ra was a one off for me haha but what’s it about . convince me

#asks/replies

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justadreamer1 · 4 years

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Disclaimer: please do not be offended. This post is not made to lessen the importance of wlw pairings

This might not make a lot of sense, but I feel like if bakugo and deku were both girls, then bakudeku would be Canon by now. For whatever reason, wlw ships (especially in anime and cartoons) are currently doing a lot better than mlm ships. And don't get me wrong, it's fantastic that we have so much great wlw representation even in anime-

Cough*ymir and historia* cough

-but I also wish we had more gay representation for men too.

I mean, catradora and bakudeku are practically the same ship ↓

^(childhood friends turned rivals back to friends with miscommunication and hero complexes and anger/self esteem issues)

but guess which one is Canon? And which won't be...

I mean, I'm so fucking happy that catradora is canon, catradora helped many people like me feel seen, but how long is it going to take to get this kind of rep for mlm pairings in Western cartoons/anime? IDK...

#bakudeku #catradora #katsudeku #bnha #my hero academia #mha #bakudeku meta #katsudeku meta #she ra #spop #she ra spoilers #ymir and historia #attack on titan

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andersfels · 4 years

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okay so. just to let tumblr know what is going on with twitter wrt the she-ra ending and what's blowing up on lesbian twitter, someone made a post celebrating canon sapphic couples, with she-ra, korra, adventure time, and steven universe.

then this fucking asshole made this comment on it:

...which was followed up by this comment of the asshole below him.

[a twitter retweet with the comment "girl on girl is the safest and laziest LGBT representation" by twitter user TroyVaderInk, with a comment below from twitter user UnHolySpork that says "its almost like they are completely fetishizing lesbian relationships and also completely ignoring that lesbian relationships are most often extremely abusive. EXTREMELY."]

and the overt lesbophobia is enough to be mad about, obviously. but this is getting under my skin for more than that, too.

so, contextually, the discussion these people thought they were having was pointing out how seriously hard it is to get m/m couples on a show like this. however, the conversation had instead was this extremely offensive mess.

the original comment does a few things here, 1 being the complete erasure and dismissal of the struggle LGBT people have had actually getting these f/f couples on screen.

2, acting like these four children's cartoons are somehow elevating wlw representation to straight representation by pitting mlm rep against them vs against het couples, rather than acknowledging both facts: that four shows of minor, one-to-none kiss rep is pathetically low, AND that mlm rep is pretty much nonexistent in media like this.

and 3, he used the phrase "girl on girl" like a goddamned porn category, implying his opinion on the apparent "easiness" and "laziness" of sapphic couples is in fact informed by and probably counting fetishistic lesbian porn made for straight men.

(this man also spent a good deal of time on twitter antagonizing lesbians who called him out, many of them teenagers, some by saying some sexist shit and defending it with utterly stereotypical sexist responses, and he had added to his callout, a post of him referring to a sapphic character with the d slur, so feel free to go report him.)

the second comment here chimes in with an almost hilariously hypocritical assertation that a) these sweet, canon wlw couples on CHILDREN'S shows are (somehow) fetishistic (for existing at all i guess??) and that b) most lesbian relationships are (somehow) abusive; which is besides the point of this post, but still one of the most hurtful and damaging things said in this thread. there is an additional comment of hers (not shown) below this one that clarifies that is what she meant.

in any case, this drove me up a fucking WALL.

because while the initial point here - that media creators are still too scared to show boys as much as even holding hands in shows like this - has a lot of validity to it, it was posed at the utter expense of lesbians, and requires of heavy dose of hypocrisy to follow through in that way.

because while media is still scarce on similar mlm rep, fandom is literally DOMINATED by it. to the point that many lesbians, including myself, have said we can't find a safe space within it ANYWHERE. I've had to drop out of active participation in SO MANY fandoms i previously loved, because the entire fandom was reduced down to thirsting after and fetishizing men in the fandom, particularly in m/m format.

there is overt hostility towards lesbians in fandom spaces when we express our discomfort over this, and to boot f/f often gets ignored or mistreated by the same people, so it only adds to our discomfort and alienation.

these 4 shows have hardly put a dent in that. they are very meagre representation at best, save maybe steven universe on a technicality, because the rest are all end-of-show or even post-show confirmations, and all of these shows have about 1-2 kisses each, if even that. pathetic stats when compared to m/f couples. it has not made fandom that much of an easier place to be as a lesbian, but i am nontheless INCREDIBLY thankful they exist nonetheless.

the hypocrisy is hard, because as a lesbian the most we are often offered is blatant fetishization, so wlw media that literally DOESN'T do that, coming from lgbt people, is incredibly important. anything that is normalizing is desperately needed.

and yet this person calls what little bit of non fetishistic media we have fetishistic, underneath a fetishizing comment about them, decrying it existing because of claimed fetishization - all in the name of speaking up about mlm rep, which is, within fandom, actually JUST as fetishized, if not more.

and it breaks my fucking heart as much as it enrages me, because this COULD have been a valuable discussion. we could have talked about the fact that mlm have yet to get similar representation to this, likely mostly due to toxic masculinity. but instead these posts used that as merely an excuse, the afterthought to tearing down lesbians and this wlw rep.

and all this to say: it literally doesn't matter how valid your original point is; if you build it on a foundation of hatred and bigotry, it loses all credibility, and destroys the desire for anyone to put in discussion about it. talking about mlm rep under a heavy blanket of lesbophobia will get you nowhere except on a lot of shit lists, unless you WANT to align with general homophobes; but i promise you they will care even less about the plight of mlm rep, save for, oh how ironic, cases of fetishization.

if you look at four, yes the whole FOUR shows sapphics got of representation like this, and your follow through logic is that sapphic rep is thus "easy" and "lazy," you are clearly lesbophobic already and have no ground to start with.

the clashing, hypocritical combination of ideas here that bizarrely imply that both a) fetishized lesbians count as rep, and b) that lesbian rep shouldn't be there because it's fetishized, do not create a cohesive starting point for a discussion of lack of mlm rep, and conveniently ignores the endless bounds of fetishization that is involved with m/m couples in fandom; which means none of it is actually about fetishization at all. it's about these couples being sapphic.

the fact that these two people are bi, people from within our own community, makes this hurt all the worse. lesbophobia is so goddamned pervasive among us that even when we should be fucking celebrating this factually rare achievement of rep, instead people are tearing down lesbians, both characters and real people.

it's disgusting, disheartening, and it's something we need to pay attention to so we can call it out and make it abundantly clear that it will not be tolerated or normalized.

the height of offensive irony is calling us "safe" when this is what we get just over an episode of a cartoon showing two girls kiss.

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kindred-is-obsessed · 5 years

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Reasons you should be watching Craig of the Creek

Not enough people are watching this wonderful show, so I thought I’d do my best to introduce people to it. It’s made by former Steven Universe crew Ben Levin and Matt Burnett, so if you’re missing Steven Universe while it’s on hiatus this is a great way to keep away the hiatus blues, or if you just enjoy in cartoons. It’s great for a whole list of reasons, which broadly fall into the two categories of great representation and great storytelling:

Canonical queer representation

- The witches premiere in the episode The Curse. If you aren’t sure if you want to watch this whole show definitely watch this one at least! It’s my absolute favourite not least of all because it’s about teen goth girls in love. It has a sequel The Last Kid in The Creek which is also wonderful, and the witches cameo throughout the series. I don’t want to spoil too much but The Curse is essentially about the two not wanting to be separated and struggling to admit their feelings for each other. (Spoilers: they do and walk off alone, blushing, staring at each other lovingly, while the kids aww at them)

- Bernard and his girlfriend watch a cooking show hosted by a gay couple.

- Other cameos, hints and coded queer kids such as JP’s sister (who has fancy dinner reservations with Kat, a woman with a shaved head who compliments Kelsey’s fake sword). There’s also Raj and Shaun (two very close friends), as well as several very boyish tomboys, including Handlebarb and Turner.

- All public bathrooms I’ve spotted in the show have gender neutral signs on them which is nice.

POC representation

- Craig, the main character, is black and has a loving family explored in depth, including an activist grandmother working for the council, a wise and fun grandfather, a supportive fun dad who loves his amazing wife, an adorable assertive little sister, and an angsty overachieving older brother who just wants to be a good grownup who loves his family and girlfriend.

- There are MANY characters of colour. There are black and brown characters, Raj is Indian, Stacks is Hispanic (and it’s implied she is an immigrant), there are several Asian characters, Kelsey is Hungarian and Jewish, a persistent background character wears a hijab (I’m pretty sure she was named at some point but I can’t find her name anywhere. She definitely has lines at one point). I’m sure there are others I have missed. No one is a stereotype as far as I am aware.

Subtle neurodivergent representation

- JP is possibly on the autism spectrum. I’d love neurodivergent people’s opinions on this, but while the representation isn’t canonical or obvious I think it’s good that while JP is represented as having different thought processes from his friends, he isn’t made fun of for it, at least not by them. It’s noteworthy I think that he’s the eldest of the core trio, probably because he finds it easier to relate to younger people who still share his imagination and care less about his unique way of thinking. His neurodivergence is explored most explicitly in the episode Jextra Perrestrial, so if you’re interested in this kind of representation definitely check that episode out.

Non-nuclear family representation

- While the main character is a member of the typical nuclear family you see on TV (except black, and actually interesting) most of the other families we see are not.

- JP is raised by his mother and older sister. His father is never mentioned and their house is definitely in worse condition than the others we see. His family works hard to take care of each other. His sister is a nurse and both her and her mother are away a lot of the time, but they both love JP very much. JP’s sister also happens to be really openly body positive. I love them a lot.

- Kelsey’s father is an only parent. There’s still a lot of mystery surrounding how Kelsey’s mother passed away. It’s a very subtle but important part of Kelsey’s character and comes through in really bittersweet adorable ways (not limited to Kelsey using her “half-orphan”ness to guilt trip a man into giving her money)

- Other kinds of families are scattered throughout the show, including families that move around a lot, a home-school kid with a strict mother, and more.

Unique approach to fantasy and sci-fi

- You know how most kids show will take a kid’s fantasy and bring it to reality? Well Craig of the Creek keeps the fantastical and nostalgic element of that line of thinking but never confirms or denies whether the kids fantasies are real or in their heads. And not in a Scooby Doo way where the fantastical elements are explained away, but are hinted as a possibility right at the very end. Instead, two perspectives (the fantastical perspective and the realistic perspective) are woven into every episode.

- This means there are two ways to interpret every episode. You can view the witches as real witches, or as goth teenagers. You can view Helen as a kid from another dimension, or a home-school kid who is never at the creek at the same time as the other kids. You can view Deltron as a cyborg from the future, or as an imaginative kid from a big city.

- This is super unique and fun to watch. They come up with so many new ideas and its always fun to figure out what’s actually happening, while still getting to relive childhood fantastical nostalgia.

- Almost all of these episodes use this to talk about an issue, but these issues can get quite complex and are definitely not shoved down your throat.

Overarching mystery plot about a colonialist kingdom / cult

- Love the slow burn storytelling of Steven Universe’s Diamond Authority? Love putting together the mysteries of Gravity Falls? Then you’ll love this plot about colonialism, classism, bullying, peer pressure and more and its mysterious build up including cryptic graffiti art and flower symbolism.

- Even before this arc properly begins, Craig of The Creek primarily centers around the microcosm of the Creek. Many of the episodes have a lot of commentary on society, politics and how different factions of people form and interact.

- The show is over 50 episodes in and this arc is only just starting to kick off so now is the time to catch up and watch.

- Fun complex villain(s)

Complex relatable characters

- Want commentary and nostalgia about horse girls, children’s tea parties, weird kids, angsty teens, young weebs, dweebs and more!? Every childhood obsession is represented in this show.

- Adults! All the parents and older teens in this show are just as rich and complex as the kids. They are all so interesting and fun.

- Want characters with arcs, aims, fun relationships and complexity!? Look no further! Redemption arcs! Revelations! Found family! It’s all here!

Great art and soundtrack

- Cute background and character designs that make you nostalgic as hell and are also beautiful and well thought out.

- Sometimes the art design is changed up for a particular episode to portray a certain fantastical / sci fi element. It’s very fun and engaging.

- An opening song that’s fun to sing along to, bittersweet ending song that makes me want to cry, a couple of musical episodes including a super fun rap musical episode, and a great OST

Queer headcanons

- There are tons of ways to interpret the show but here’s some of my head canons just to get an idea.

- (Note that despite my headcanons I use the pronouns for the kids that they use in the show cause I’m not certain about any of it and they’re kids who haven’t come out yet and also for clarity and consistency’s sake – I’m not saying trans people are not their genders. Don’t worry I’m nonbinary)

- I headcanon that all the main trio grow up to realise they are queer. They strike me as that weird group of friends that doesn’t fit in with the other kids and aren’t quite sure how they all came to be friends, only to later realise they all showed early signs of breaking gender roles and that’s why they stuck together.

- Craig definitely grows up to realise he’s gay, bisexual or queer. His admiration for characters like Deltron and Green Poncho are definitely crushes that he mistakes for a strong sudden and eager desire for friendship.

- Kelsey probably grows up to realise she is nonbinary, a trans boy or a WLW. I mostly headcanon this because I relate to her a lot and I’m nonbinary and queer so I said so. She reminds me a lot of myself as a kid. She throws herself into books, mostly fantasy for escapism. She fantasises and writes a lot for the same reasons. She dresses like a tomboy (She always wears her hair up in the same bun which strongly reminds me of my own childhood hair dysphoria) and she hangs out solely with male friends.

- JP gives me strong trans lesbian vibes, or to a lesser extent nonbinary vibes. (I know his sister is WLW coded but take it from me there can be more than one queer in a family). He is interested in girls, specifically Maney the horse girl (he even joined the horse girls for one episode). He wears a long V-neck shirt that is essentially a dress ALL the time. He’s aware that he’s different and while self conscious sometimes, mostly just wants to express himself the way he wants to. He also chooses to go by initials JP over his very gendered name Johnathan Paul (In a recent episode he names a ship after himself, calling it “The SS Johnathon Paulina”).

- (Sidenote if you do start watching this show and I see any nasty shipping of these characters in non puppy-love fashion so help me god)

Other reasons

- The show is at times very intertextual and references Princess Mononoke, Super Smash Brothers, Sailor Moon, Lord of the Rings, and a billion other things. It also has some fun cameos, including background images of the Tres Horny Boys from The Adventure Zone, a TARDIS from Doctor Who, and a Cookie Cat from Steven Universe.

- Honestly, this post hasn’t done the best job explaining why I love this show so much. You honestly just have to watch an episode to understand fully what I’m talking about, so give it a go! Watch The Curse at least, it only goes for 10 minutes.

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honeymarenrights · 4 years

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Do you think we’ll actually get some possible gay hinted content in the franchise in the coming years? Do you think Disney will have the balls or wait a decade or two for it? I see people headcanon a spin-off Disney + defies for Elsa and maren when they can play around with romantic tension. Thoughts?

y'know, this ask really made me think (which I appreciate, I love analyzing things in my head)

we ALL know that Disney is.. not the best when it comes to LGBTQ+ representation. we all know the struggle of dealing with Disney throwing in a barely-mentioned LGBTQ+ couple on the side and calling it "representation" and a "big step forward".

take it from a huge fan of She-Ra. having watched season 5 and experiencing the ending wlw kiss between two of the most major characters of the show was an ethereal experience (I screamed for a week). and this wasn't through Disney, it was through Dreamworks and Netflix. but STILL, I was shocked. happy, but incredibly shocked, which just goes to show how LITTLE representation we actually have in kids' media. even a simple kiss, something that has DEFINITELY not been considered borderline family-friendly with het couples in kids' shows in the past, was something to behold.

now. we have Disney. Disney, which has been VERY lackluster with LGBTQ+ rep compared to other production companies. and we have the Frozen franchise, which is arguably one of their biggest and most successful franchises yet, with one of the biggest audiences and LOTS of kids as fans. don't get me wrong- I do NOT see Elsa as straight. but for a simple wlw kiss in a kids' cartoon (not even from Disney!) to be a huge step forward for representation and given Disney's track record with LGBTQ+ representation, I sincerely doubt Disney as a corporation would be happy to promote Elsamaren (or any other wlw relationship Elsa is in), no matter how supportive the writers/directors would be of it.

I believe they might hint at Elsamaren in later Frozen content, but they would probably make it VERY lowkey. I think they wouldn't show an onscreen kiss between the two, not now. if Frozen content is still being made in the next few years, then possibly (Disney really has to start playing catch up lmao), but unfortunately their idea of LGBTQ+ rep is just NOT it right now.

as far as the Disney+ spinoff idea, god that would be so fun and cute but I don't think it would happen. like I mentioned, I think right now Disney is just not in the place they need to be with LGBTQ+ rep and it's "too big" a step for them to take. they're at the bottom of the damn staircase imho, lmao. I think Elsamaren is a great ship that could be expanded upon in later years when Disney is more "ready". but for now? I unfortunately don't have high hopes.

sorry this kinda got away from me a little bit because I have many Thoughts about this sort of thing but uh:

tldr; Disney's LGBTQ+ rep game is weak right now and I don't think Elsamaren is something they'll jump right up to promote or even make canon since Frozen has such a big audience. in later years, I think it's possible that they'll make it more up front, but right now just Ain't It for Disney

#sorry if this was incomprehensible it's *checks watch* midnight #boo disney as a corporation but always support disney's creative workers #anyway yuh that's my take #elsa #honeymaren #elsamaren #frozen #frozen 2 #long post #ask #answered #anonymous

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boogiewoogienomnomnom · 4 years

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Late 10s & 2020 wlw rep in cartoons has been epic y’all

I mean there’s been so much it’s so wild how far the LGBTQ+ community has come in terms of representation (for emphasis, I will now list all the ones I can think of off the top of my head. We got shows like Korra, Owl House, the She-Ra remake, Adventure Time, Harley Quinn, The Dragon Prince, Steven Universe, and so many more that I’m definitely forgetting)

That being said, I feel as though mlm couples have been treated as an afterthought recently. With the notable exception of Benson in Kipo, I can’t help but notice that a lot of cartoons just use a photo a character’s dads or something along those lines to work in the fact that they have mlm couples (see Violet’s dads in Ducktales or Willow’s in Owl House).

Don’t be mistaken, I am really fine with this form of casual representation. My issue is when this form of representation is the only representation put out. It’s important to have representation in a way that doesn’t take from the narrative of the show, it’s just that I can’t help but see a pattern were priorities are more heavily placed on wlw couples. I also have absolutely no contempt for any of the shows I said here. These are honestly some of the best shows I’ve seen in a long while, I just think it’s important to reflect on what work needs to be done so we can have representation which leads to the inclusion of all facets of life.

Let’s hope 2021 lets the rep get a little wider :)

BONUS:

Ooo and another thing worth mentioning, all the shows I’ve mentioned have such great and prominent women in the center stage and that’s really really rad. Like it’s awesome to see so many cool characters that show the diversity of our world. I just wanted to acknowledge that as well and show another reason why there might be a tendency towards wlw couples in cartoons.

#wlw #cartoons #mlm #she ra #spop #Owl House #legend of korra #steven universe #harley quinn #lgbt representation

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quill-and-chalk · 3 years

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I think Dana’s post and the reaction to it really shows how little most people know about the TV, and TV Cartoon industry. I’m not an expert and this is gonna be a hot take but stay with me.

Dana said that season 3 was basically destined to get cut down since before agony of a witch, which could also mean Disney was planning this cut since before Grom. These two episodes were VITAL for TOH numbers, and without these numbers I gotta admit it probably wasn’t looking like TOH was going to a raging success. Of course we have hind sight and realize that this assumption was wrong but they didn’t have that.

On top of this, Disney approved of its first explicit WLW relationship which, while it’s well overdue, was still a big move for them because it meant that they didn’t care about this show being cut from certain countries. They were willing to lose that money in the first place, so why would they cut the show JUST because it had LGBT themes?

And I’m not saying that TOH having LGBT themes isn’t one of the reasons it got cut, but what I am saying is that from Disney’s perspective they were taking a BIG risk with this show. Disney is a company that is dependent on a “family-friendly” brand, which is one of the reasons why it has taken them sooo long to have a show with LGBT representation. If TOH’s viewership wasn’t astronomical (and remember a lot of the episodes released before they made their decision were pre-Covid so they are judging on episodes ratings before the major shift to streaming) then Disney probably was worried that they were taking this major branding risk by airing a show with demons, witchcraft, and (god forbid) gay people, for nothing.

This branding thing actually explains a lot, like how Amphibia is getting another season even though I’m pretty sure (and don’t quote me on this) it has worse numbers. Amphibia fits more into the Disney brand of bright fantasy than TOH does. Plus Amphibia doesn’t have gay people.

And honestly as a franchise TOH actually has a decent chance of being picked up again as either a spin off series or comic or something else. These are just some things that bring me hope and tell me that Disney hasn’t totally given up on the owl house. Disney broke the, albeit not very strict, 50 episode merch rule with its hot topic shirts and the funko pops that are going to be released. Also getting the notice of brands like Duolingo, who I still can’t believe posted fanart, and streamers like Tommy (I think he was the one that watched it though I might be wrong) is a big deal because this means TOH is a big enough show in the public eye to become even a small part of pop culture. Heck even the fact that a decent amount of TOH tik tok sounds are trending is a good sign.

Point is, we need to stop acting like this is purely because of LGBT rep or because Disney secretly hated the show (If the entire Disney company hated it why would they air it?) I feel like we need to realize that this decision, while stupid, was complex. Continue supporting the show, buy merch, and keep the fan base and online activity around this show active, because who knows what they might decide to do with the show.

This post was long and a mess because I made it in my math class but I hope it made some sense. I’m just tired of the crazy conspiracy theory’s y’all.

#the owl house #toh #toh s3 #disneytva

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alistairlowes · 4 years

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Okay you really (obviously) do not have to answer this if you don't want to but i've been wanting to watch vld but the i've seen people refer to it as the "v slur" or like tagging their posts with content warnings? I was just wondering why and what happened with the show but it's 100% okay if you don't wanna answer

hi! i’m fine with answering it’s under read more because idk how to explain without writing an essay

contains spoilers!

i’m giving an overview because it’s been a while and it would take me 3 days to explain everything that actually went down with that show and it’s production.

first things first, i think most of the fandom will agree first 2-3 seasons of vld were actually good. the animation, art and music were always on point. generally majority of the problems could be tracked to showrunners joaquim dos santos and lauren montgomery. if you watched the show without much background context and focused purely on storytelling… like it would still suck but it probably wouldn’t make you as angry. as someone who actually followed interviews and production and can’t look at it inside vacuum, i’ll summarize it like this:

plot had no sense of direction. jds and lm said they didn’t have a plan instead the writing was done as the show went on. which is why the plot is all over the place.

too many characters. none of them properly developed. even main characters were eventually stripped to their main traits (ex. hunk making food jokes; lance being comic relief), not addressing any trauma characters experienced and you can actually tell which characters were prioritized.

shiro was originally supposed to die. but because his toys were selling and capitalism always wins jds and lm had to keep him alive which resulted in some very weird and non logical arcs for him.

queerbaiting. this one will vary depending on who you ask because a lot of people pointed out show did bating with “certain” scenes. now listen, EVEN if we ignored that this is still where they fucked up the most. big part of the older audience consisted out of either lgbt fans or shippers and production was very aware of that (ex. they tagged trailers with #klance and they also sold merch which had only keith and lance on it which is…yeah). now the worst part. during season 7 promotion they announced we would meet shiro’s love interest that season. said love interest was a man and shiro (you know character they previously wanted to kill) was actually gay and suddenly very important representation. so naturally fans were excited. that ended up with them killing off love interest (ex-fiancé) in the first episode of the season. also i remember two voiceover version existed, one being more censored. the show ends with shiro marrying a guy (which should be a big win for kid’s cartoons). however those screenshots leaked before final season aired and by the time it did they changed guy who he married from one random bg character to another one. instead of owning up to having lgbt characters they put wedding scene at the end which made them avoid any potential backlash of financial loss. there was also some wlw baiting but it doesn’t matter they killed them off too.

forced tragedy porn. in an interview jds and lm stated they wanted to kill and hurt more of the characters but the weren’t allowed to. allura (one of only 2 main female chars) dies in the end as some kind of heroic sacrifice and i can’t even begin to unpack everything wrong with that. after 8 seasons of lance pinning after her they got together just before she died which left him heartbroken and he decided to become a farmer because you know makes sense. lotor who was off and on villain died melted in a chair (this is still technically kids cartoon and that scene was terrifying). there’s also constant shiro torture.

toxic fandom. although not exclusively fault of the shippers they did bring the bad name to the fandom. constant ship wars, people asking ship questions on every panel, harassing everyone involved, showing nsfw art to voice actors (yes really). by the end actors didn’t wanna do anything with the show either. they usually did panels after the new season but s8 was so bad not even jds or lm dared to do one <\3

there was more drama and a lot of rumors but i won't include those because i don't know how true they are. voltron is basically what happens when you have a big demanding fandom and tone deaf showrunners. there is few video essays on it on youtube if you want to know more about issues with the plot and other stuff. censoring tags and trigger warning became like one of those fandom things as a result of fans who were disappointed. vld became he who must not be named basically lmao.

#this is one of those things you just have to experience because it's v hard to explain sasdjjs #there was always just so much drama rumors leaks conspiracy theories #hope this makes some sense at least #answered

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poisonandpages · 4 years

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Thoughts on LGBT+ rep in She-Ra

Yes I know everybody and their mother has had their own go at this but this is just me collecting my personal thoughts as my head is swimming rn.

OK, to start off with; I am very privileged. I know that. I’ve spoken about it before. I was born in the mid 90s, I’m white, cis, my country is among the best in Europe for legal protections around lgbt+ people and I have a family so brilliantly kind and supportive sometimes it’s unbelievable.

That being said;

Queer representation when I was a kid just...wasn’t a thing. The only gay rep in media I was vaguely aware of was a small solo shelf in the bookstore (that I never went near because I felt that would be pervy) and the occasional throwaway joke in adult sitcoms like Friends. If you asked a teacher about something lgbt+ related they cringed and shuffled, told you to ask your parents and changed the subject. “Gay” was an insult because it was synonymous with “dumb” or “weird” or “weak”, and despite the growing pride movement and great strides made towards equality in the official sense it still very much felt like a minority thing. It wasn’t mainstream. This is one of the reasons I didn’t feel comfortable in my own skin until I was nearly 20.

Then I started to notice little developments. It became more popular for celebrities to ally themselves with lgbt+ rights groups and campaigns. Adult shows would tease at queer romances being a possibility. A few had the backbone to make them reality and slowly others started to follow suit. That small shelf in the bookstore became a whole section. With the rise of the internet it became easier to access old queer media, movies and novels and accounts of real people I’d never known existed. The world opened up. It was brilliant.

But at times it still very much seemed like an adult thing. Something to be kept in its own little societal box, away from everything else. While my parents were raising their son and daughters the same others in the neighbourhood were losing it over girls not liking boys or boys playing with dolls. The idea that someone could be “other” to expectations was something to keep quiet.

And then...slowly, we started to get a little representation in family shows. The coding had already been there for a long time, but this was actual couples being shown on screen.

Not a lot, at first. Little background characters having blink-and-you’ll-miss-it moments. Then those characters coming a little closer to the foreground. Baby steps until Legend of Korra ended on a shot of a wlw couple. Because there was no on-screen kiss or dialogue establishing a romantic relationship there is still dispute as to how much this counts, however the creators have insisted that they did the most they could at the time to clarify the two characters are definitely together in that way but were hindered by the network, and it can’t be denied that this sparked a bigger push for representation in children’s media.

(disclaimer; I have not seen LoK but if claiming lgbt+ rep after the fact works for the fantasy writer that shall not be named I don’t see why it shouldn’t count for people who definitely had genuinely good intentions.)

After that there were further instances of mainstream shows including lgbt+ couples with Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon & even the Disney Channel all making little moves, but things were still...relatively quiet for a while.

Along came Rebecca Sugar, and this is where we started to see some real improvement. While I haven’t seen all of Steven Universe I’ve seen enough to know that the show is largely populated with feminine leaning non-binary characters, two of which marry on-screen, and the other relationships if not outright stated are heavily, heavily implied. Unfortunately because these characters are technically not human people will still insist that this doesn’t count; the gems’ relationships can’t be compared to those of humans because their gender ideas don’t correspond with human ones.

(Personally I do not hold this against Sugar or the creative team. I have to wonder how many of the above mentioned critics are the same ones who wouldn’t respect nb human characters anyway).

I remember being shocked by Steven Universe in the best way. I didn’t think I’d see the day canon wlw couples were featured in a family show. I was sure this was the best the lgbt+ community would get and we wouldn’t see its like again for a while.

And then. And then. She-Ra.

I was told in advance that there would be canonical lgbt+ characters and relationships (I binged the entire show in a few days as opposed to friends who had been watching from the beginning), but I still had to see it to believe it. I couldn’t have expected this from a reboot of an 80s fantasy-space opera my mum grew up with.

Right from the early seasons there’s rep in the form of Netossa & Spinerella (who are so damn cute I think of them as goals), and George and Lance, fathers to main character Bow. The former are canonically wives who call each other “darling” and kiss more than once, and the latter raised 13 children together. Their relationships are never questioned, never othered, never brought up as anything unique. There’s no special episode dedicated to explaining why these characters might not be like others. They’re allowed to just be.

There is of course subtext as well, largely surrounding the character of Scorpia with the implication that she wants to be something other than friends with Catra and later Perfuma. Also in her baby picture she’s being held by what appears to be a wlw couple. Her mothers? But because we know there is explicit representation as well this seems less like teasing and more like worldbuilding, as we can understand the character’s motivations without knowing every little last detail about her. It’s honest to goodness the first time I’ve seen subtle rep that didn’t feel like baiting or the creators going “well that’s good enough that’s all we’re gonna do!”

(Now admittedly, while the Ls Gs and Bs find ourselves reasonably represented, the show does kind of lack in rep for transgender people. However crew members such as character designer Rae Geiger have acknowledged this and again it comes off as the showrunners being pushed back by netflix rather than them simply not caring. Hopefully this means there will be further opportunities to do better in future.)

And as we know now, the show ends with its title character in a wlw relationship. Gay love saves the day from oppressive imperialistic conformity.

This happened! This honest to goodness happened!

And the thing is it can’t be edited out. The story doesn’t make sense without it. There’s no way to chop and change to take out the queer parts without completely messing it up, not only demolishing the ending but throwing away all the beautiful development that appears throughout the show leading up to it. The She-Ra reboot is an lgbt+ show and that can’t be undone.

And it’s a kid’s show. It’s a mainstream cartoon hosted by a major streaming network. That’s what threw me about all of this; it isn’t niche. It isn’t treated as an anomaly. It’s a family show where all kinds of love are treated as normal and beautiful and worth celebrating. There are gonna be little kids watching this saying “Netossa and Spinerella are like my friend’s mums!” or “Bow’s dads are like my dads” or “Adora and Catra love each other like my sister and her girlfriend”. They’ll grow up knowing that if they turn out like this there’s a whole world of people who will consider them wonderful. They’ll grow up feeling loved. They’ll grow up feeling brave.

It’s been a relatively short time but we’ve come a long way from that lone bookshelf, haven’t we?

Of course I know one cartoon doesn’t fix absolutely everything. Lgbt+ people still face a lot of trouble in even the most progressive places and there are a lot of places that aren’t. This show won’t instantly overturn laws or bring down cruel organisations. But good grief it is something. As I said young kids will be influenced by this and grow into better adults because of it. Adults will be reminded that they��re not alone. And if we can come this far surely it only means that we can go further, do more. We’re moving forward every day and here is the proof! No matter how many versions of Horde Prime we encounter in real life they can be taken down! There is so much hope and it has been boosted by She-Ra and the Princesses of Power.

We’re not yet where we’re going but we’re so far from where we were, and at least a part of that bigger movement is due to the cast and crew of this incredible show.

#lgbt #long post #she ra #my heart is full of rainbows

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