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toacollabevent · 2 years

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Submitted by @fearlessinger

My match is @im-here-maybe, and here’s the art piece of theirs I chose for the collab: https://im-here-maybe.tumblr.com/post/687703760647110656/post-toa-stuff-is-so-fascinating-to-me-because-in

The more I look at this piece the more I love it: it’s deceptively simple, yet it captures something really profound about the ending of the series.

Apollo – and it’s important too that it is Apollo, rather than Lester, that we see him appear as – is alone, not surrounded by his friends and family like he was in the final pages of TON, making explicit what’s only barely hinted at in his narration: eventually, all of those people will grow old and die and only he will be left; his memory of them, of their time together, the only proof that their bond existed, that once upon a time, for a while, he truly was one of them.

He’s curled up in a fetal position, evoking the rebirth of body and heart and mind that his journey culminated in. It was a terrible victory: you need to be unmade first, to be able to remake yourself anew. And Apollo was, first at the hands of his father and then at his own. Zeus started it, and Apollo finished it, because tearing himself apart was the only way to survive.

His face is half hidden: he threw aside his masks but he never completely stopped lying, to both us and himself, both outright and by omission. He will never admit in so many words to the crucial truth: that he’s walked this path before, that a huge part of this journey was a rediscovery of things he already felt and knew and believed. That that is why he’s afraid.

“I have to see if I’m strong enough,” Meg tells him, explaining why she wants to confront her abuser again. But Apollo already knows that the previous times he wasn’t strong enough. He knows that he’d surrendered. That he’d let himself become complicit. He’d finished his father’s work for him, finished tearing apart everything that made him him, that made him Apollo, with his own hands, until the resulting wreckage was enough to his father’s liking, because it was either living in pieces or not at all. He’d done it with his eyes wide open, not out of ignorance but simply out of sheer impotence.

Because that is the source of his problems. His impotence before his father, his entire family. And reclaiming his godhood brings him right back in the middle of them. Right back where he started.

But still that’s what he chooses. That’s been his goal from the start and he’s never doubted it, not even for a second. It’s only after he’s achieved it that he allows himself to mourn what he gave up in pursuit of it: the sense of belonging that only people who experience life at the same time, at the same pace, who grow old together, and then die and in death reunite for one final time, can share. The comfort of knowing that the good things he’s built will survive him.

Apollo started out this story terrified of death, thinking of immortality as a refuge from the responsibility of having to make the right choice, clinging to the certainty it gave him that he would always have another chance, that he’d always have tomorrow to make things right… and in the end, he’s conquered that fear. He’s finally stopped waiting for tomorrow. He’s started making things right today. That’s what allowed him to make peace with the very real possibility that he might die. It’s why he now openly allows himself to long for what Lu has, what all mortals have. You don’t need to fear the end in sight if you know that, in the limited time you had, you’ve done your best. And Apollo has.

But he has not changed his mind.

“Think of yourself as dead,” recites the maxim by Marcus Aurelius that Apollo remembers by heart. “Now take the rest of your life and live it properly.”

That is what Apollo really wants. To live properly. So he mourns the things that he lost when he chose to reclaim his own immortality, his own power for himself one final, perhaps definitive time, pulled himself up from that ledge, remade his divinity from scratch out of sheer willpower. He mourns, but he does not regret his choice. Because no matter how tempting it may be, to renounce the immortality that sets him apart from humanity, to renounce the power that makes his father feel threatened, the power to make things right… that would not be to live properly.

Gods can do anything, even choose to die. It’s the choice that, in different ways, both Hemithea and Harpocrates made. It’s also, in a sense, the choice that Pan, and Helios, and a lot of deities big and small who lost faith, who lost sight of themselves, ended up embracing in the end. It’s a choice that Apollo could also have made, that he also could have embraced. But to Apollo the freedom that mortality would grant him – from his father, from his family, from accountability for his own mistakes, from the responsibility to do more and better – will never be worth the price.

“Call on me. I will be there for you”. Apollo wants the power to make that promise.

But even as a god, especially as a god, back in his home that isn’t a home, once again subject to the rules of non interference that in the millennia have been tightened to the point of stifling the gods’ very reason of being: not just the people’s belief in them, but their belief in themselves… does he really have that kind of power? Does he, when even just to go back to visit his children, his friends that he’s made in the brief time he was allowed to walk the earth among them, he already has to lie?

There’s no answer to that question, no certainty at the end of the story. There’s hope, yes, that this time will be different. That this time Apollo will remember that he is not alone, and allow himself to draw strength from the people who believe in him. That he will be strong enough to reach out again to those who did not have the strength to reach out to him. But there is no certainty. There can’t be. And the truth is, there would not be even if the series ended with the revolution we are all rooting for. As Apollo’s family history demonstrates, it’s far, far too easy for the killing of an old tyrant to give way to the crowning of a new one.

“Power,” Apollo says, “should make good people uneasy.” And right after he’s reclaimed the power of a god, he is full of uneasiness. He finds that reassuring. But how long before he stops feeling like that, after he’s rid himself of the one person who had the power to oppress him? How long before he forgets what it was like to be under his father’s talon? Eternity is a really long time. Millennia after the fact, Apollo looks at the laurels that his sister’s put on his head, at the hyacinths that adorn the balcony before him, and he wonders whether he really meant for them to commemorate the people they represent, or if he just wanted to wallow in self pity. He’s not sure anymore. Perhaps he’s being unkind to himself, as he tends to do. But with the power of a god at his fingertips, he really can’t afford to be very indulgent with his own flaws, his own weaknesses.

To live properly is a choice that must be made every day, every time anew, over and over again. For an immortal god, such as Apollo, the work is quite literally never ending. But that was his choice. That was always his choice. “We only fail when we stop trying,” he says, and he believes it.

#submission #trials of apollo #trials of apollo meta #riordanverse #riordanverse meta #pjo apollo #fearlessinger #im-here-maybe

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iwoulddieforienzo · 4 months

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Something I really appreciate about TOA that I don’t see get talked about much is that I never get the sense that Apollo finds Lester ugly.

For all that he complains about the body he’s stuck in, I never got the feeling that it came from a distaste for Lester himself. When he sees Lester’s traits reflected in others, like Meg being chunky, he is completely unaffected by it. Finds it charming, even. (In fact, the only times I can remember him having Opinions about how someone looks is when they’ve chosen something about their appearance that he either approves or disapproves of, like a tacky jacket/hair cut or when he finds someone attractive. The only time I can remember him calling anybody ugly was when he pointed out that Dionysus was choosing to look as ugly as possible to piss of Zeus, which is a statement of fact and doesn’t necessarily mean he thinks that Dionysus’ form is actually ugly. He makes no mention of finding it so before or after that line. It’s a statement of fact that Dionysus is choosing a form that either he or Zeus finds ugly to piss of their dad.)

The thing about Lester is that he is so devastatingly mortal. He has flab and acne and no upper body strength and his voice squeaks when he’s nervous and he sweats a lot and he has a silly name and messy, curly hair that’s impossible to tame. He is the Most Teenager To Ever. There is no godly blood running through his veins, no powers he can call upon. If Apollo were to run into him in the street, I don’t think he’d pay him much mind. He’d probably just think, “sweet kid”, and move on. If he got to know him, I think Apollo would adore him because that’s just who rrverse!Apollo is. He loves mortals despite himself, flaws and all. He’d argue against anything bad Lester had to say about his own appearance and mean every word.

The problem is that it’s Apollo in this body. Apollo, The Golden Child, the perfect son, a God. His distaste for this body is because Lester is so devastatingly mortal and imperfect. Apollo has to be perfect, he has to be shiny and pretty and strong because he has nothing else to offer otherwise.

And.. I dunno, there’s something about Apollo hating the things that draw him to others when it’s him. The flaws that he tears apart in himself he finds endlessly charming on others, or he thinks that they have better reasons for why they have them, or he thinks they have enough positive traits to counteract them. The positive things that he hides deep enough that even the reader can’t see right away, like his kindness and genuine desire to understand and connect with everyone around him, that he’s shocked to find directed at him in turn.

That Apollo accepting himself and reclaiming his personhood leads to him being comfortable with being Lester, imperfect and mortal as he is. That he takes that imperfection back with him to Olympus… I dunno man I’m Emotional. Also it’s just plain nice that Lester is never treated as ugly for looking like a normal ass teenager, even by the guy stuck in this body. That’s neat.

Or maybe I’m just rambling and this means nothing at all and I’m reading too far into Blorbo from my books.

#DOES THIS MAKE SENSE. is this too rambly. AUGH.#words machine ALWAYS broke and I forget everything I’m trying to say the moment I try to write or type it out #which results in long ass posts like this. this could’ve been 3 sentences probably #TOA #trials of Apollo #rrverse!apollo #lester papadopoulos #snack time #should I tag this as meta?? I dunno

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storybookstr4nge · 8 months

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its 2018. fall out boy released mania, Brendon urie released pray for the wicked, and twenty one pilots released trench. supernatural is on season 14 without any signs of destiel. Voltron season 8 just came out and decimated both klance and its fanbase. the third trials of Apollo came out and made everybody miserable. dan and Phil are on tour, and the final Phil is not on fire came out. Tumblr is never going to be the same.

#sorry I'm going to a con rn and I'm wearing my lance Voltron jacket which is both layered in meta irony and also very sincere to my past #what a crazy year. I was 13.#fall out boy #panic! at the disco #twenty one pilots #supernatural #destiel #voltron #klance #trials of apollo #riordanverse #dan and phil #dan howell #Phil lester #pinof #I have a genuine love for this period of my life and all of these things (except for Brendon urie)#cringe is dead. I love you fandom

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ukelele-boy · 1 month

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I just wanted to talk about this scene and my headcanons.

This is young Dio being sad after Hera was a jerk to him. And big bro Apollo saw and decided to help him cheer up by using a statue of Hera as target practice. He then told Hera it was his idea only so Dio wouldn't get into trouble.

Hera honestly made their childhoods hell so they have a shared bond about it. And Apollo gets were Dio is coming from. As well, young Dio had a hero worship of his older brother, cause he seemed so cool, funny and put together. He wanted to be like Apollo in every way. Older Dio became more jaded, angry and envious after he saw Father would always favour Apollo and compare them. And how Apollo always wanted to be perfect and bragged about it, but Dio was never good enough for Zeus. Eventually this led to a rift and in the years of pjo they have not been close in a while.

But, a sad part I imagine is that Apollo tried to shield them from the abuse of Zeus as much as possible, to the point where he often took the blame for their mistakes without them knowing. (u can see his habit of it above with Hera) He thought that at least as Zeus' favourite he would be punished less severely (only half true).

This also had the unintentional side effect of Hermes and Dio getting a more lenient view of Zeus, which also kinda made Apollo withdraw even more into a mask. RIP.

Dio definitely changed how he viewed Apollo after TOA. He realized Apollo wasn't so perfect and was a mess just like him. So I think they would have a bonding moment like in the animatic.

#mine #lester papadopoulos #trials of apollo #my art #pjo apollo #pjo dionysus #percy jackson and the olympians #Meta #my animatic

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guardianspirits13 · 7 months

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I've been thinking about this for a while but like. The gods don't have a human conscience. And I know that's obvious, but the closer you look, you realize that they don't really feel emotions the same way humans do. They don't comprehend time, or death, or love in the same way that humans do. Apollo tells us he's lost track of centuries and forgets that people from thousands of years ago are dead and gone. The gods are incapable of change because they have no reason to do so, and few to no consequences if they don't.

When Apollo is turned mortal he is annoyed, sure. But he has trouble getting the concept of mortality through his head. He's seen thousands of people die- heck, he himself has brought plagues upon cities and set his wrath upon his mortal enemies with no hesitation. But humans to gods are playthings.

And so it isn't until he loses Jason, someone he knows, his half brother, that he understands true loss. He laments Hyacinthus and Daphne, but it was his own godly power that caused their demise- his wrath and jealousy. It was infatuation, sure. But did he really know what love was before he was cast down from Olympus?

Jason doesn't only die, but actively sacrifices himself to save Apollo. This is also moments after Apollo tried yet failed to kill himself instead, and it was in part this failure that led to Jason's death. This is a wound of guilt that eats away at Apollo for the rest of the series, and the lasting effects of grief are shown masterfully in the remaining books, with tears and breakdowns occuring seemingly at random, with overwhelming gratefulness at simple acts of kindness, and with the lingering sense of something missing.

Out of all of the remaining gods, it is probably Artemis who understands grief and other human emotions as closely, since she spends most of her time among born mortals in the human world. When she loses one of hunters, she shares in grief with the rest of her troop. She is in touch with the mortal world, I think, as much as a god can be.

And, as an honorable mention, Hestia- who is used to being overlooked and forgotten but is always ready to offer a smile and a warm meal to anyone in need. I think she understands isolation and loneliness as much as any human, and regularly appears in the mortal world to organize soup kitchens and food pantries for those who are struggling. That's just a headcanon though :)

I hope you enjoyed reading this, I've been itching to get these thoughts out for a while.

#trials of apollo #toa #trials of apollo analysis #toa analysis #toa meta #lester papadopoulos #apollo pjo #pjo #percy jackson and the olympians #jason grace #heroes of olympus #meta #analysis #jess's thoughts #pjo meta

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leovaldezdefender · 1 year

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the downgrade of villains from pjo to hoo is so disappointing. luke castellan was such a good villain with an interesting backstory and motivations and it HURTS to see the villain that succeeds him. because gaea, to put it bluntly, kind of sucks.

she has no emotional heart, no theme or message to send. she doesn't have a character you can sympathise with, she's not out-there enough to be hated strongly, she's not likeable enough to be one of those charming villains. the series flip-flops between trying to give her good qualities but never expanding on any of them, and trying to make her pure evil but never making her commit to it enough to be enjoyable.

she's just there. she's little more than a plot device, the Ultra Big Bad that we have to fight. and sometimes there's nothing wrong with that! but considering how hoo fails in every other aspect, the bland villain is just another disappointment. luke was what made the original pjo so good — the themes he carried, the tragedy of his life, the base of his character which served as the main core of the story, the balance between good intentions and the corruption of self.

as a result, gaea is just... fine. she’s not an absolutely terrible villain, but she looks second-rate compared to luke and kronos, despite being a lot more powerful, simply because they were much richer in themes and storytelling. even the decent villainous chemistry she has with leo and hazel isn’t enough to carry her to being interesting.

but credit where it’s due, i’ll say toa did much better with villains. the portrayal of abuse with nero and meg, the romance between apollo and commodus, caligula's sadism and lust for power, all had way more personality than gaea ever did. (even if i AM still bitter about how a series with the roman emperors as villains wasn't centred around camp jupiter.)

#percy jackson #pjo #heroes of olympus #hoo #pjo meta #most of this is copy pasted from my rant on twitter but i added some stuff as well #that i wasnt able to fit in because of the character limit #pjo gaia #pjo gaea #luke castellan #trials of apollo #kronos #pjo analysis #riordanverse analysis #trying to sort out tags for stuff like this...

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perseas-wellyboots · 1 month

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People are like Rick Riordan is such a great author who's not afraid to change status quo and ignore major flaws in his stories like JK Rowling and I'm like are you sure?

That sentiment might have worked if PJO was the only series in Riordanverse but with the addition of HOO and ToA it rings entirely false.

In PJO the major problem that needed to be tackled storytelling wise was Gods not claiming their children and their neglectful nature along with rise of Kronos.

Both those issues were ignored by Zeus and then in the end when they swore an oath on Styx, we assumed that it will be better.

However straight into HOO series from The Lost Hero, we see that Zeus did not change at all and instead made a bigger mess of events by closing Olympus and forbidding Gods from leaving Olympus. So we learn that not only does he ignores a problem that could potentially end the Gods twice???? but he's actively part of the problem.

The Gods could be better as a whole if they had someone competent in charge.

The Trials of Apollo series however changes the status quo entirely, the previous both series were from POV of demigods, so they and along with them we could only assume how Gods work and that the Gods neglecting demigods is a choice by them. But in ToA, Zeus goes from zero to hundred, not only is he a incompetent paranoid leader but he's also a tyrant and abuser. He abuses all his children and any disrespect results in huge punishment.

The Gods like a human family are stuck in a cycle of abuse but unlike in human family their abuser would not just die naturally one day. He is with them forever.

Apollo even identifies himself with Meg and thinks Zeus as a Beast for himself and yet no resolution is found at the end of the series and we just go on.

The Sun and the Star and The Chalice of Gods only continues the status quo.

True change of status quo and revolution would be Zeus being overthrown. In the root of both wars the major issue that causes high casualties is Zeus's carelessness.

I would love a book from Apollo's POV where he recruits his siblings and plans a revolution to overthrow Zeus because the immortal and mortal world and demigods, all of them would benefit being free of him.

TL;DR: Most of RR's writing has very similar problems as JKR's writing and even though I enjoy the PJO series more than HP series, I think RR fans should stop preaching holier than thou attitude.

JKR is problematic outside of her poor writing in HP (racism transphobia) and so is rick (with his neutral stance on genocide in palestine and playing both sides card, using this to promote his book, his islamophobic writing and not to forget how badly piper was wrote in TLH and she did not get much better until ToA)

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thatcrazypercyjacksonfan · 10 months

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Now, I’m not sure if anyone in the TOA fandom has ever mentioned “Tongs A Lot, Dad”, a short story found in Camp Half-Blood confidential, but I strongly believe it adds (or perhaps reinforces) a lot when looked at with the additional context and characterisation the Trials of Apollo provides.

An almost diary entry like addition in the short book, the story is told by Connor Stoll, following him and his brother as they poke around the old attic where the Oracle of Delphi remained for decades in the interest of scoring loot. At this they are semi successful, as they are made almost ridiculously vital to the canon plot of HoO with the find of celestial bronze tongs, which are inscribed with the instructions “for plucking the Tartarus Napkin from fire”. And if you are reading this post, you probably have a pretty good idea of why that’s important.

Now, what does this have to do with Apollo? Well, I find it highly probable that this was Apollo’s doing, for multiple reasons.

1. The tongs were found in the oracle of Delphi's old abode, which is obviously Apollo’s domain, a place you would think he’d be very familiar with- the original place of the Oracle of Delphi was sacred ground, in fact, and even if that doesn’t quite translate to modern day... there is that theory about him being Camp Half Bloods Patron, pioneered by @tsarisfanfiction, I believe. Whatever hold the ancient laws have on the gods, I think we can somewhat assume that places such as these allow more wriggle room.

2. This notably happened basically simultaneously with Rachel becoming the Oracle, as seen here, “While everyone else was waiting to see if Rachel, the new Oracle, would survive....we made our move around to the back door of the Big House.” At this point, we’ve just wrapped up PJO. How would Apollo of known to set this up now? Well, we already know from Octavian in SoN that Apollo talked to him personally, and that their talk must of happened before Olympus closed, because he was stuck on Delos after. So if Apollo can put that into play, why not set up this? After all, Apollo is the god of prophecy - he could of understood it was needed. He obviously knew there was a threat.

3. In the books (before ToA) we only see Apollo in Camp Half Blood twice- once to take Percy’s group and the hunters there in TTC, and once at the end of PJO to, as Conner so delightfully puts it, wait to see if Rachel would survive the Oracle. He was right there. And if that’s not enough for you, the reason Conner picks out the bag with the tongs? A “beam of golden light, shot upward from the floor” startles him. We find out later in another story that Apollo is directly confirmed to have been the one to do this- gifting Rachel the famous tripod stool of the Oracle. It fits almost to well.

“But!” You might say, protesting, “The title confirms who did it! I mean, it’s not like Apollo is Connor Stoll’s dad!” And to that I say- although the title does suggest that Hermes is responsible, it’s never confirmed, and more importantly- it’s in Connor’s POV. Why shouldn’t he assume it’s his dad? And why would he know otherwise? Perhaps you could make another connection with Hermes due to his shrine in Tartarus and point at that as his involvement, but wouldn’t it make more sense if Apollo knew it was a Child of Hermes who had to have the tongs, and acted accordingly? Afterall, last we saw Hermes he had a significant grudge against Annabeth, and more importantly has done nothing to suggest he’s capable of such foresight, especially at this point.

Now that I have (hopefully) convinced you of Apollo’s involvement, another titular question must be answered- why does it matter? What’s the ramifications of this? Well, considering that this napkin basically ends the civil war between the Greeks and the Romans... a lot, actually. Specifically, it allows Annabeth to communicate that reconciliation can be reached if Reyna, a Roman, returns the Athena Parthenos, an important Greek statue to the Greeks. (Also interesting to note she addresses this to Rachel, Apollo’s Oracle... another subtle connection).

In ToA, Zeus punishes Apollo mainly for two stated reasons: Revealing the Prophecy to soon, which becomes pretty clear is not how prophecy works. And encouraging Octavian to declare war on the Greeks. But wait? If the Napkin succeeds due to Apollo, that means that he is trying to stop the war, which in my opinion follows more along with his characterisation in ToA. So what happened with Octavian? The fact of the matter is, people more clever then me have attempted to solve this question, such as @zazzander and @fearlessinger (Highly recommend this post if you are interested in the topic!)

The tongs (and thus the potential for the Napkin) was put into place months before any true threat would be realised by most characters. So it wasn’t a frantic backpedal of trying to fix his mistakes to avoid punishment by Apollo. It was deliberate. Premeditated. Now, it could be that Apollo just knew the tongs would be needed, but not what for. Unfortunately, we don’t know how his powers work. But that’s boring. However, if you take the view that Apollo’s communication with Octavian was part of a larger strategy to reunite the camps... (again, see the linked post). Well. Funny thing, because that’s exactly what the Napkin facilitates. The two camps stop fighting because of this one, simple message, and the effect it had. They focus on the true enemy. Gaia.

What does this tell us then about Apollo, then?

Well...not much new, surprisingly. ToA does it’s job well. We know Apollo cares, deeply, about his kids and demigods as a whole. We know he often acts subtly, through quiet actions that he’ll never admit to. It’s maybe the final piece of evidence you could point to and say definitively that Zeus’s punishment was unjust, but we already knew that (although funnily enough, Zeus doesn’t- and even if he did, he’d probably just point to the violation of the interference laws and punish Apollo anyway.) What it does is add on to a very firm characterisation that ToA finalises, and showcases how once again Apollo is so much more then he first appears.

#Did I focus way to much on a story of dubious canon?#Yes #Do I regret it?#No #Apollo meta #Apollo #ToA Apollo #Pjo Apollo #PJO #TOA #Trials of Apollo #lester papadopoulos #I have been meaning to do this for ages #I just think it's a really neat detail... but it just kept getting longer #Oh well #this meta is just me being insane for #roughly 1k words erbherf

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worlds-oldest-teenager · 10 months

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I’m interested. How do Apollo and Artemis’s desire to protect each other drive a wedge between them?

I'm glad you askeddd. Thank you for being my first anon ever btw. (@crowmakeska-boom idk if you are the anon but anon, whoever you are, sorry for the wait). This is probably not a very good meta cause it's mostly vibes, gut feelings and filling in the blanks with below the bare minimum of textual evidence but oh well.

First I'd like to talk about why I think Artemis and Apollo's relationship is kind of distant. They're a confusing duo. When you first meet them in the titan's curse it may seem they don't like each other much or atleast Artemis seems to not be paticularly fond of her brother. Calling him “irresponsible”, “lazy”, “big headed”. But reading between the lines reveals how much the two of them care for each other, especially on Apollo's part from all the illegal help he was dishing out to the questers.

But then when you read some more, their relationship just feels a tad too distant to completely take what they say as just banter. When we see them on Delos in Blood of Olympus the distance is literal. They're recycling banter that's getting old and you can tell that even if it had been lighthearted before, it’s definitely getting on both their nerves now (stolen from fsinger lmao). They’ve both been playing the part for a long time but it feels like they don’t have the closeness anymore to recognize they’re both just playing parts.

So what happened?

I think it's their need to protect each other that's causing this rift between them. From my point of view Artemis & Apollo are protecting each other from different things but Olympus is at the core of it for the both of them.

The twins have a very different experience of Olympus. Since her introduction Artemis seems pretty critical of Olympus. According to the hunters she's the only one who can get the ball rolling during solstice meetings and she's shown to not really act the Olympian way. Taking the sky off the shoulders of a mortal girl. Shrinking herself down to make the human heroes feel more comfortable and demanding they get rewarded.

It wouldn't be far fetched to assume that she's never fit in with Olympus and doesn't agree with most of the views of her family.

Then there's Apollo.

Who fits in so perfectly with the messed up inner workings of Olympus or so people think. He's perfected his mask over the years and no one is the wiser about the abuse he's gone through or even the fact that this isn't actually who he is.

To me, Artemis wants to protect Apollo from Olympus' true nature. In her head she's got every part of Olympus figured out and for the most part she has. Even if it's not something that works for her I think she would want to protect her younger brother from knowing what the kind of people he surrounds himself with are truly like.

I feel like Artemis would be conflicted on it for other reasons too because if Apollo is aware of the kind of people the Olympians are and he's alright with that, what kind of god is Apollo?

So she'd much rather think of him as stupid and irresponsible cause those atleast mean that it isn't he isn't a bad person. But I feel deep down she doesn't really believe completely that what she knows of her brother is correct.

But then she sees the way Zeus loves Apollo and cares for him and in her mind it's the right decision to let him live this way. He is safer now than they ever were as children.

Apollo on the other hand wants to conceal their father's true nature from Artemis. We know that he cares deeply about appearing fine on the surface because of how others would worry and who would worry more than his older sister.

Artemis and Apollo may be the protectors of youth but the first ever youth they protected were each other. It's the foundation of their relationship and caries on into the present day. Both of them feel a desperate need to protect each other.

I would go so far as to say that this is THE relationship they have with each other. The both of them never find comfort in each other, only protection. You can tell that comfort is not something they usually derive from each other from the way they're both completely blindsided by simple things like an "I love you" , a hug and just concern in general.

Comfort from each other is not a priority for them no matter how much they crave it. The twins purpose to each other is to protect.

So of course Apollo would never tell Artemis about the way Zeus hurts him.

I also think there's a little bit of denial on Artemis' part on just how abusive Zeus is. Cause Apollo is dropping hints. Even the way Artemis talks during Blood of Olympus makes it clear that she understands Zeus is gonna massacre the guy. She just doesn't want to believe it will be permanent.

And it's got a lot to do with the fact that she wants to protect him. Because if she acknowledges this isn't a situation Apollo is gonna come out from unscathed that means that she's incapable of protecting him. That means that she's failed to protect him before and cannot protect him again.

So she'd much rather pretend that Zeus is persuadable and not that bad. That it's Apollo's fault Zeus comes down so hard on him and if he were a little better and a bit more like her he could be safe.

And this would hurt Apollo because Artemis can pinpoint exactly what Zeus is like. But instead of comforting him she confirms for him that this is his fault. That if he could be better none of this would happen. Artemis helps prevent but never helps heal because helping her brother heal means he was in a position to be hurt in the first place.

All this mess and miscommunication and disbelief stemming from the fact that they love each other and never want to see each other hurt creates an impossible distance between them.

But there is light at the end of the tunnel. Slowly but surely they're trying to comfort/ seek comfort instead of just protect each other.

I wept on my sister’s shoulder. I felt like if I let go of Artemis, I would fall back into Chaos. Huge parts of my identity would shake loose, and I would never be able to find all the puzzle pieces. “Whoa, there.” She patted my back awkwardly. ��Okay, little fella. You’re all right now. You made it.”

Apollo's trials sucked. But I'm glad it's given the twins the opportunity to bridge the gap between their relationship again.

#trials of apollo #toa apollo #pjo apollo #pjo artemis #asks #thank you for reading #toa analysis #toa meta #tentatively #this has probably been reiterated a thousand times since the first book came out #oh well #longish #should add quotations when I'm freee #nice Argument how bout you back it up with a source🔪

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aeithalian · 10 months

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As promised: Leto, Zeus, and parenting

I'M SORRY i know i said i'd get around to this two weeks ago but life got crazy but anyways HERE WE GO

I'm not the first to say this: we know virtually nothing about Leto and her parenting style. She makes a total of one appearance, is mentioned a couple times (mostly in the context of re-explaining Python's relevancy), and is only mentioned by another character besides Apollo once in the entire Riordanverse. For being the mother of one of the main characters, she is frustratingly underutilized as a character.

Yippee.

But, of course, I am going to dredge up every single reference to her parenting and personality as possible and determine just what kind of person and parent she is. Because here's my theory:

Apollo, while he is under expectations to be more like either Zeus or the other gods in terms of his parenting, probably takes more after Leto. So I think that if we can parse out Leto's personality and combine it with what we know of how Apollo parents, it gives us a good clue as to how Apollo and Artemis were raised.

First things first. Leto. Here's a list of things we know about her (aside from what happens in the myths):

Koios (her father) believes she would fight against Zeus due to the way he treated her after the twins were born (THoH)

Koios also considers her as one of the more peaceful Titans (THoH)

Leto seems to have an established life in a Florida condo (raising the question if she ever actually needed to reform or wasn't banished to Tartarus like the other Titans) (TDP)

Zeus and Leto used to have a much better relationship! (eg. the duet Apollo remembers them singing when he was a baby) (TDP)

Apollo writes a song for her every Mother's day (like the good momma's boy he is) (TDP)

Leto is willing to literally grovel in front of Zeus to save Apollo from his punishment (TDP)

Apollo (in a moment of mental haziness) can remember the impressions of Zeus and Artemis in his memory, but not Leto (TBM)

When calling to his godly family for help, Leto is the third (and last) person Apollo thinks of. Zeus is the first. (TON)

There's more to be said on the dichotomy between how Koios and Apollo perceive her, as well as Rick's nonexistent timeline skills, but that's pretty much all we know about her. That, and while she never had a traditional domain before the twins were born, she was later worshipped as a goddess of motherhood due to the large scope of influence her children had.

In summary, Leto:

Has a lot of reason to be angry with Zeus, but puts those feelings aside out of love for her children (and possibly because she remembers having that positive relationship with Zeus)

Is considered to be peaceful, but might not be (she might have condoned the murder of Niobe's children, among other stories). Regardless, she's considered gentle (by Hesiod, namely 👀 iykyk), and is one of the most celebrated mother figures in Ancient Greece aside from Demeter

Has a more distant relationship with her children for some reason (maybe the fact that she is a Titan and has lost favor with the gods, but based on how little Apollo mentions her compared to Zeus, he might not see her a lot)

We've never really met Leto, but based on this limited information, I think we can safely say that her personality probably includes traits such as gentleness, forgiveness, and responsiveness.

So, what does this tell us about how Apollo parents? Nothing, yet. So let's move on to Zeus.

NOBODY is surprised when I say this: Zeus sucks.

According to Apollo, Zeus very heavily utilizes what is called in psychology positive punishment, where a (typically unpleasant) stimulus is introduced in order to decrease a certain behavior that is seen by the punisher as undesirable. This is apparent every time Apollo talks about feeling the pain of Zeus' lightning bolts, or even when he compares Zeus to Nero and his Beast (the Beast being the stimulus that is introduced to keep Meg from rebelling).

Interestingly, the entirety of the ToA series and turning Apollo mortal could fall under the definition of negative punishment, where a stimulus (in this case, Apollo's godhood) is removed to decrease an undesirable behavior. However, turning Apollo mortal is still an introduction of a stimulus: pain.

See the similarities? Tangent aside, this is how Zeus parents. Restriction, then giving pain when the rules are broken, which then creates fear around those restrictions.

Let's give these firm definitions. Traditional psychology gives us four main parenting styles built around variances in how responsive and demanding a parent is. Take the image below:

Zeus is the easy one here: Authoritarian. I feel like we don't even need to discuss any further, he's quite literally a textbook definition. As king of the gods, he can't be responsive to everyone, but must demand much from his all-powerful subjects. The problem is that it bleeds into his parenting too much. He's ruling his children.

Leto is harder. Mostly because we just don't know enough about her, but I like to think she's got a higher level of responsiveness. Those types of parents are usually warmer, which goes along with Apollo's account of her and what we know from the myths about her gentle demeanor. So that narrows it down a bit, but her level of demandingness is harder to pin down. That's the issue when your children are immortal - you don't demand much from a child who is more powerful than you and matures fully within a week. I think Leto may lie somewhere in the middle of authoritative and permissive, but let's give her the benefit of the doubt. If she's the Titaness of motherhood, let's assume she's a great mom and say she's Authoritative.

Don't forget those, we'll come back to that.

The thing about parenting is that it's passed down from generations. We raise our children the way our parents raised us. That's why we call them "cycles" of abuse - because it keeps happening. That being said, I'm fairly confident that Apollo takes after Leto when it comes to parenting, because we see that he's already broken the cycle - even before we spent five books with Apollo, he's never outright harmed one of his own children the way we know Zeus did to him. So if he's not following Zeus' example, he's probably mimicking Leto's. Which then means he probably takes after her personality a bit, too, which was characterized by being gentle, forgiving, and responsive.

I don't know about you, but feels just like the Apollo we know.

Going back to the four parenting styles, you might be ready to call Apollo the Authoritative parent because it's the same as Leto's and call it a day. That's the point I was making, no? Wrong!

Yes, the ideal Apollo would be Authoritative. But, you know, we see him interact with his children, and he's just... not? What I think is that Apollo has gone through (or will go through) all four.

Authoritarian - This would be the first one he tries, because he might feel like he has to be like Zeus. There's one example of this with Koronis (yes, not really an example of parenting, but personality-wise, it's very Zeus-y), where he has Artemis kill her as a punishment for cheating. The story continues, blah blah blah, he fails to heal her but saves Asclepius by performing the first C-section. But I think that this is the moment where he choses to not be that kind of father. He gives Asclepius to Chiron as one of his first students, and from what we know of Apollo and Asclepius' relationship, it's good! Asclepius calls him "Dad" in BoO and wishes him the best - but it's still distant, in a sense. The apple fell pretty far from the tree, because acting like that, especially with the inner knowledge we have of Apollo from five books of content, never indicates Apollo being demanding and simultaneously lacking in any kind of responsiveness. So, in conclusion, Apollo has never consistently been Authoritarian, and being as such is in direct contradiction to his personality.

Uninvolved - This is what the gods (aside from Zeus, as king) are supposed to be, especially with their mortal children. If Apollo cannot be like his father, then he might as well try and be like all the other gods: being neither demanding nor responsive. We get hints of this with the Trophonius story - Trophonius' greed becomes his downfall, and Apollo does not intervene when called upon. Even without knowing what their relationship looked like before Agamethus died, it's pretty obvious that Apollo was absent on most accounts. We also see this example with other gods and their children - Poseidon and Percy, for one. Poseidon is never there, because this is what is expected and enforced by Zeus. Zeus, also, skews towards being Uninvolved with his mortal children - Jason met him once, people. But, again, this is pretty unlike Apollo to be able to maintain - he's simply too naturally responsive and empathetic to conform to this standard, and he confesses to the audience that he feels guilt around Trophonius' fate, indicating that being an Uninvolved parent was not something he found comfort and ease in.

Permissive - I believe that Apollo is most comfortable as a Permissive parent. But this goes along with something that I've always believed: Apollo doesn't necessarily parent his kids. I don't think many gods do (this goes along with another meta I want to do on godly maturity and how it relates to parenting, but I digress). Apollo is lacking in being demanding enough to properly parent his kids, but he makes up for it in overwhelming responsiveness. We know he's highly aware of other's needs, we see this a lot with his relationship with Meg, and this is something that he finds easy. He's sensitive and empathetic towards everyone, especially his own children, and (in the later books) has a great sense of what to say and when in order to get people to open up. But that lack of demanding is still there, and I think this is interesting for several reasons. It makes me wonder if Apollo does not demand from his children because he feels like he has not yet earned the right to. If it were me, and I had the face and body of a person the same age as my children, I would find it difficult to be the more mature person, too. But even at the end of the series, it doesn't look like he's making any moves towards being more demanding: when Rachel gives the prophecy to Will and Nico, he steps back into the Permissive parent role and indulges Will in what ends up being an incredibly dangerous quest to Tartarus (side note: this is one of the several reasons I found TSatS disappointing, because there are so many stones left unturned with how the premise could have allowed both Apollo and Will to realize that Apollo being a Permissive parent is not what Will needs). Yes, Permissive parents aren't bad parents, but especially with demigod kids who lack in proper parental figures that aren't Chiron, they might not necessarily be good parents either.

Authoritative - This is what Apollo has the potential to become, but it's going to take a huge wakeup call. The entirety of the ToA series is about Apollo learning that the way the gods have been doing things is not something he has to adhere to, and that he's allowed to utilize his natural instincts from Leto to be responsive. But being demanding is a whole new can of worms: Zeus is the only one who seems to be allowed to be demanding, but he does it without the responsiveness that makes it healthy. I think Apollo has yet to learn this - that you can demand from your kids and still be a good parent.

I wish there was more I could add. Artemis is a whole new rabbit hole that I'd love to go down, but alas, we know even less about her parenting styles because, well, she doesn't really have kids. Oops.

Alas, that's all I've got. The promised meta about Hermes and Apollo's relationship is coming soon!

Here's a masterlist of my other metas

#toa #riordanverse #trials of apollo #apollogists #meta #leto #zeus #apollo and parenting

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hyacynta · 2 years

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I'm just going to say it. I do not want Jason to be brought back to life in the Solangelo book.

Jason's death wasn't for nothing. It was the most pivotal moment in Trials of Apollo. Jason knew that either him or Piper was going to die. He went into battle with the intent to sacrifice himself to save her, Meg and Apollo. He died like a hero. Jason death severely impacted Apollo's arc. It was because of Jason that Apollo made a promise to change for the better. Throughout the rest of the books, Apollo always reminds himself of Jason's actions and words. Jason haunts him to no end. He thinks of Jason as his brother. He doesn't want anyone else to do what Jason did and so Apollo tries to take on everyone else's burden. Jason's death is what causes change in the gods. He shakes up their very foundation by making Apollo truly understand that how the gods treat demigod lives as disposable is not right.

Jason's death is treated extremely respectfully and like it's final. His last wishes are honored, Piper, Meg and Apollo are saved, the shrines he designed for the gods are put up in Camp Jupiter, he is given a tribute song, he is mourned by everyone, Apollo keeps his promise to Jason, and he is given closure. Piper accepts it, Leo accepts it, Nico accepts it, and his own sister accepts it. Did they want that to happen to him? No, of course not. But they understand it was his choice.

Jason's death is quite possibly the most impactful death in the entire Riordanverse. Resurrecting him would cheapen his death so much. It would undo everything that happened in the last three Trials of Apollo books. All those goodbyes for nothing. What would it teach Apollo? "Oh it's fine if demigods die, we can just resurrect them."

I know you miss Jason, but bringing him back would do so much more harm than good both to him and the entire story.

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gutsybitsies · 1 year

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no but. after TOA, apollo probably visits Camp Halfblood more regularly, right? And he does it in his Lester form, but he switches so sometimes he's teen Lester, but sometimes he comes by as Grown Up Middle Aged Lester when he feels like his kids need their dad more.

so he's like, bonding with his kids and whatnot, and suddenly there's a Disturbance in the Force, and because he's also driving the sun chariot, he sees that the hyacinth flowers in Cabin 7 have been glimmering and suddenly turned into a very handsome young man in his 20s, wearing a spartan tunic and speaking in ancient greek.

and apollo fucking freezes and tells his kids "okay children you need to improv with me on this" and disappears.

chiron comes out to see what the disturbance is about, and is very fucking surprised to see THE Hyacinthus, who's confused and a VERY overwhelmed. he offers him a place at camp halfblood, not as a camper obviously (he's not a demigod and he's a full adult), but as a camp counselor and a part of the activities board.

and then kayla and austin burst into the Big House making a scene because "CHIRON! We found an injured hero who was being attacked by monsters, he's in the infirmary now!"

of COURSE the injured hero is Lester, and Apollo's vain enough to have his Lester form be in his mid 20s, and have absolutely no pimples, and he gave himself 6 pack before will told him that that's too much, so he settled down for a 2 pack.

Chiron fully sighs before sighing some more when Lester raises up a blood covered letter of employment stating that he was to start here and work as part of the camp staff.

all in all, this was a pretty tame way of courting from an Olympian, but now camp halfblood has TWO gods in there all the time, not that Hyacinthus can tell. Lester throws himself into helping chiron out and also "guiding Hyacinthus" through the wonders of the mortal realm, and Hyacinthus is enjoying the wonders of modern technology (they installed a bidet in the Big House, and Apollo personally paid to upgrade everything).

but whenever Lester makes a move, Hyacinthus is really hesitant, and Lester's like okay well I should one final showcase of my irresistability before confessing! Until Hyacinthus tells him that okay, he's picking up what Lester is putting down, and he's kind of into it, except he doesn't want to get Lester hurt. Because of how he died, he knows first hand how jealous gods can get, and he doesn't want to put Lester in the line of fire of any jealous gods.

meanwhile cabin 7 is in FULL cahoots and trying to wingman their dad as much as possible. even nico's in on it, he accidentally trips and tells hyacinthus that oh no, you need to bring me to the infirmary where lester is at, he is such a good healer!

anyway. just lester pretending to be mortal trying to woo hyacinthus because he feels guilty about causing his death and so he's so afraid of showing up as apollo, and hyacinthus falling in love but he doesn't want what happened to him happen to lester.

GAH

#toa #trials of apollo #apollo pjo #pjo meta #lester papadopoulos

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tarragonthedragon · 3 days

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thinking about how Nico and Apollo orbit one another

#pjo #hoo #toa #that's #nico di angelo #riordanverse #Apollo #trials of apollo #Percy Jackson and the Olympians #heroes of Olympus #the sun and the star #lester papadopoulos #meta

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tsarinatorment · 2 years

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Riordanverse: Gods and Mortals and Nicknames

So I wrote this in response to another post but it was kinda tangential so I’m gonna just slap it down as its own thing, too. Very rough and ready because I’m tired and have no free time at the moment, but if people are interested (and I can find time), I can absolutely try and tidy this up at some point! I believe it was @fearlessinger I originally breached this topic with some time back in the toa discord but there were probably a few others lurking as well...

But anyway: Gods and Mortals and Nicknames!

Specifically, the way that the gods never canonically shorten each other’s names, or use anything less than a full name (barring Dionysus’ chronic inability to say most demigods’ names correctly) to refer to each other and the demigods (with one glaring exception which I’ll get onto in a sec).

It almost reads as though there’s an etiquette there, that using their full name is a mark of respect - that you acknowledge their power and you’re not belittling it by bestowing some sort of pet name/nickname - and it’s interesting to me that they keep that up with the demigods (who we know they envy, thanks to Apollo dropping that little truth in his narration, and are of course the major source of their own worship and therefore power in the modern day). A key example here, and the one that contradicts fanon the most, is the fact that Apollo never, ever, calls Artemis anything other than “Artemis” or some variant of “sister” (titles being the alternative to using a full name, eg. “father” when they’re not trying to get Zeus’ attention!). There is no Arty or any other typical shortening one might expect from a twin.

That’s completely different to how a lot of (Western, I’m British and that’s the culture I can speak for; I won’t make assumptions on others) mortals view names; nicknames/pet names are very common when you’re close with someone and like someone. And we see it with several of the main characters:

Percy, of course, is the prime example. We all know it’s short for Perseus and we all know that Percy never, ever, goes by Perseus. He doesn’t like it when people call him that (and maybe that’s because it sounds a bit pretentious, or because Perseus is too much the shadow of his predecessor rather than him), and the only time people call him that is gods or monsters, or when he’s in trouble/people are intentionally trying to rile him.

Nico is another one, and one I didn’t realise about at all until THO, when Apollo refers to him as Nicholas. Honestly, I thought Nico was his full name until then, but I’ve been informed by someone with a far greater understanding of Italian names than I that Nicholas makes more sense as his full name than Nico, so there we have it.

Meg, leaning into TOA because that’s where this is going to go, is a third; she refuses to be called Margaret under any circumstances and if she got her way, no-one would even know Meg wasn’t her full name.

Will isn’t a main character (much to my ongoing disappointment), but we got canon confirmation that his full name is William, and yet it’s never used except when people close to him do that good old Full Naming Thing when they’re fake-mad.

Which leads me off to my point about names and etiquette and Apollo, our god who loves humanity and quite frankly, understands and respects humanity better than the rest of the gods (and yes, even pre-TOA but I’m not getting into that rn) so it makes sense that he might be willing to switch which etiquette he’s using depending on if he’s talking with/about mortals rather than gods.

Because Apollo calls Percy “Perseus”… but only sometimes, when he’s being a bit of a little shit because especially at the start of TOA, Apollo was really laying that facade on thick, lbr. Otherwise, unlike literally every other god, he calls him Percy - Percy’s preferred name. With Nico, Nico told him “it’s Nico”, and Apollo immediately switched to that, his preferred name, without hesitation. Meg, when asked, did give her full name but also made it clear that she hates it, and Apollo never used it.

And of course, there’s Will, Apollo’s beloved son, who he calls Will right from the start of THO, completely bucking the trend of full names unless requested otherwise, and being a lovely beacon of “Apollo and Will had enough interactions pre-BOO for Apollo to know Will’s preferred form of address and default to it when he’s mortal and half-conscious and very groggy to the point he barely recognises his own son - yet still uses his preferred name and not his full name”.

Dionysus, as mentioned earlier, can also buck the trend, but it seems to be much rarer, and with good reason - unlike Apollo, who gladly gets attached to mortals over and over and over again, he doesn’t want to get attached, so he distances himself with fake names most of the time (but uses full names when he does use them… except with Nico and Will, who are the only two demigods I can think of off the top of my head that Dionysus refers to by name (and nickname, no less) in every appearance he has with them. With Nico, I assume this is because of the therapy sessions and the way that he’s chosen to get close to him for some reason. Slightly less clear with Will, but considering it was from Apollo’s pov and therefore Apollo was there, I am fond of (and amused by) the idea that Dionysus knows better than to mess up Apollo’s kids names when his brother is there and will go all papa bear on him for getting it wrong. Maybe he calls him other names when Apollo isn’t in earshot, who knows…

#riordanverse meta #riordanverse #rrverse #rrverse meta #percy jackson and the olympians #heroes of olympus #trials of apollo #pjo #hoo #toa #pjo apollo #pjo dionysus #percy jackson #nico di angelo #meg mccaffrey #will solace #tsari analyses things

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ukelele-boy · 10 months

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I was talking in discord about Hermes and Artemis and wanted to share it here as well.

I headcanon that Hermes at the end of toa is going into denial because he always believed gods do not change, as a sort of comfort to him failing to save Luke and the other mistakes he made. Seeing apollo be openly changed is making him doubt himself and he lashes out due to this. He doesn't want to believe apollo has changed, because that means gods were always capable of change and he no longer has his biggest defense for his actions.

he needs more character development and is a very interesting character to explore. Given how he contrasts apollo in many ways.

Mythologically he and apollo are close and I tend to borrow that as backstory when I think about them. I think between him and apollo there's a lot of stuff they haven't worked out. For two who claim to be best friends on paper, they haven't acted like it in a while.

There's probably a lot of unaddressed grudges (May castellan comes to mind immediately and that's only one from recent decades. There could be more going centuries back.)

On Artemis:

In TOA, its clear that Artemis still hasn't gotten over her delusions of Zeus and her own image of Apollo being a dramatic airhead (that apollo encouraged to protect her and himself..)

Apollo cannot be open with her because she would rebut him if he ever brings up this vulnerable topic and it would really hurt him. He just newly finally accepted the truth and her rebuttal or reiteration of past beliefs would be a terrible hit. But making her understand puts artemis in the same horrible shock apollo went through.

Hence they cannot bond properly because they always have to keep up walls around each other to sort of protect each other, in a messed up way.

Chronic: what do you think Artemis would think of Apollo's change post toa? I can't imagine her not being weirded out by it, since Apollo being loud and an idiot seems pretty baked into her perception of him

but toa altered his personality (the way she knew it at least) pretty fundamentally.

Me: I think this could work pretty well. To do initial bonding over this and then work out their misunderstandings about each other once they've gotten a degree of closeness back.

I have hope that this will encourage artemis to look at apollo through a new lense and be more open. Which is why I feel at the end of toa, they have more hope than ever before of actually understanding each other. They need to put in some work first though.

Someone once said artemis fatal flaw is righteousness and I've agreed ever since. ❤️‍🔥It also lines up nicely with mythology.

You can see her thinking her leaving Olympus and their fakeness for the hunt is her version of righteousness and she feels that she's on the right, hence she doesn't pause to examine things closely anymore. She's come to decisions about Apollo and the others. But this leaves nuances out and ended up hurting her and Apollo's relationship.

#mine #lester papadopoulos #trials of apollo #Meta #Pjo apollo #Pjo artemis #Pjo hermes #Analysis #The someone is fsinger/eleu btw

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