Do you really think that the realm will support Jacaerys's claim eventually? After all the rumors about his bastardy are really strong and most TG stans claim that since Jace is a bastard he can't inherit anything, Jace needs to be legitimized first. I really like Jacaerys character and I'm new in this fandom, so this matter is so confuse to me.

Btw your post are amazing ❤️

Thanks, anon!

Answer to Question #1

1)

I have many, many posts about bastardry and the boys' illegitimacy vs legitimacy: HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, & HERE. Basically, Jace is not really illegtimate bc illegtimacy must be "proven" and he was never proven to be. People have to argue/prove for it more than people having to argue whether or not one's hair is red or not. And

2)

Jace was actually respected outside of his family (A Son for a Son"):

3)

Several of those greens stans are not reading the damn text and refuse to see that Jacaerys was actually pretty admired by one of Rhaenyra's biggest supporters, Cregan Stark ("A Son for a Son"):

Also, Alicent had been, FOR YEARS, trying to get more people on her side and denounce or pressure either Viserys into removing Rhaenyra and her sons from the line of succession (both bk and show) or just get MOST of the lords at court and beyond to denounce Rhaenyra and her sons...and yet she had to resort to a usurpation, imprisoning courtiers and servants to withhold news of Viserys' death, pressured the council to crown Aegon after many lines of persuasion buttressed by Cole & Otto's input and wild accusations and assertions about Rhaenyra's sons, Daemon, and Rhaenyra not being actually the Queen...

I'd say that Alicent failed to convince anyone to really go against Rhaenyra by depending on the boys illegitimacy.

Answer to Question #2

Do you mean if Rhaenyra had ascended peacefully (no war at all, no usurpation) or had won the war with Jacaerys still alive when she did? Yes, he is her heir and the lords fought for her...they were a package deal. If you didn't want to have Jace as the next ruler, you would not fight for the person who names him as heir. Rhaenyra would have consolidated her reign and ensured her line's future better.

Now if we're talking about DURING THE WAR, Jace somehow survived but Rhaenyra did not/lost, I think there would have been a bit more difficulty without Cregan Stark, Jeyne Arryn, the Blackwoods, Vyprens, other lords who respected that their vows applying to Rhaenyra applied to her heir as well (bc again, they came as a package deal politically) and without as many dragons as the blacks had. Since most of the lords didn't swear to him but just to Rhaenyra, maybe some lords would use this as an excuse to defect or leave the war altogether because it stil costs them resources, some still will use this to justify how a male line goes before a woman's line, and/or they are just greedy AND cowardly and see this as they way to flagrantly ally themselves with the greens.

in the beginning. Bc the actual named heir/undoubtedly trueborn person is no longer there to enforce/support Jace's claim.

And once again, Cregan Stark made his Pact with Jace [2nd pictured quote above]...Cregan was a beast after the war and northerners are mad about their vow-taking, arguably more than "southern" folk. Cregan also liked Jacaerys very much from what's written about them--some fans theorize romantically, but whatever. He also had a higher emotional stake in it, which is an amplifying motive to the primary one about the Pact.

As for Jeyne Arryn, she was steadfastly loyal to Rhaenyra's cause because she was blood through Aemma, she would be helping to make sure her own position was securer from male relatives who already tried to oust her, and because Rhaenyra was a woman--like her. Women in a man's world an all that ("A Son for a Son"):

(Cregan also was interested bc he was having trouble with an uncle trying to oust him...succession things). Thus it could get easier for Jace to default back to him having been Rhaenyra's heir, he's never been "found out" to not be Laenor's , and he's a male dragonrider. again, this is if he loses most of Rhaenyra's supporters, bc it's still possible that he'd reatin the bigger and important ones.

Also, if Daemon somehow by some miracle managed to dispatch Aemond and come back...they'd likely fight with and for Jace anyway because Daemon is just loyal &--by reputation and action--brutal like that. Jace--less likely...key words--loses that many supporters of Rhaenyra's.

aemond: my uncle is a challenge i welcome, if he dares face me—

everyone, literally everyone, team green enthusiast and haters, team black enthusiast and haters, rhaenyra stans and antis, aegon stans and antis, alicent stans and antis, daemon stans and antis, team neutrals, team ‘I like pretty people and want to fuck them all’, team ‘yall are missing the point’, helaena lovers, and AEMONDWIVES AND HATERS:

Always hated the way according to TB I'm supposed, as a woman, to root for Rhaenyra "Mary Sue" Targaryen because she's a Valyrian woman and can't do no wrong. Otherwise I'm framed as a misogynist, an enabler, a rape apologist, every name in the book. As if this isn't the same girl who coerced her bodyguard because her erectile disfunction uncle didn't wanna bang her after leaving her in a brothel, naked and on plain sight for any kind of perverted brute. As if this isn't the same girl who weaponized both her and her best friend's trauma to twist a truth about something she very willingly did that could've had her disowned if her father was anyone else other than the weak ass neglectful rapist pedo father she had instead.

This is the same girl who ignored and mistreated Alicent when all she did was convince Viserys to allow her privileges she never had, like choosing a husband. Like it or not, it was Alicent the one who gave gave and gave, and Rhaenyra the one who took took and took and even MOCKED, time and time again. The same girl who acted like a victim when the girl she called her literal best friend (only when it benefitted her) was getting maritally R*PED in the next room by her crusty ass father. She never tried connecting with her siblings because they were Alicent's children. Not because their minds were poisoned, not because they were apparently bitter towards her. Because they weren't her mother's children. Same as Viserys. Guess the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree.

I'm supposed to root for a woman who doesn't do one single thing for the claim she feels so entitled to (who was purely based on Viserys' grief and guilt for Aemma)? I'm supposed to root for a woman who brings back to the line of succession the same man everyone wanted far from the line of succession? I'm supposed to root for the woman who wants to be the exception, not give possibilities to other women like an ACTUAL feminist does? She usurps her stepdaughters' claims in favor of her obviously bastard children, and no, betrothing the fpur of them isn't the same. If they die, the girls' claim dies with them, and guess what, exactly that happened.

No, I will not root for the woman who wanted a teenager's head because she was black and because she couldn't cope with the fact that "hEr pRiNcE" didn't love her, only what her title could offer. Or the woman who put a price on a 6yo's and a 2yo's head simply because they were her brother's children, thereby proving what Criston said about what was needed for Jace to raise to power after his mother. She even denied the request of multiple older daughters/sisters who rightfully wanted to lead their houses, with the excuse that the relam would be far too 'imbalanced'. Girl, are you that dense? There's the smallfolk getting eaten and burned and taxes by your dragon and your entire family fighting wars and dying left and right and you think two women ruling their houses will destabilize the realm?

Rhaenyra is many things, but feminist is not among them, no matter how much you cry and whine about it. Yes, I'm aware that no woman in asoiaf or f&b can be described as feminist. But the convinction (and delusion) that Rhaenyra is, without a shadow of doubt, is mindblowing. She's arguably worse than any of said women combined.

No, I don't feel represented or uplifted by a tyrant, classist, racist, hypocritical, spoiled kinslayer with god complex because she's albino and has a pet dragon as spoiled and as useless as her. Sorry not sorry.

I love harwin strong cause every time he comes across rhaenyra no matter what shit she’s pulling he’s just like “good for her”

Delusional minds: “Aegon killed Rhaenyra, so the Greens won the Dance.”

The opera is not over until the fat lady sings.

The Black armies completely obliterated the Green armies in the final battle of the Dance: The Battle of the Kingsroad.

How can one claim that Rhaenyra’s death signified the end of the Dance when other battles followed?

Armies win wars, just fyi.

And after the Queen’s death, the Blacks rallied behind Rhaenyra’s son, Aegon, the true king.

The Battle of the Kingsroad left the Greens without an army and so the war was finished. The Lads, Lord Cregan Stark and Lady Jeyne Arryn were all marching to King’s Landing to depose the false king and crown Rhaenyra’s son.

Victory belongs to the Blacks (as confirmed by GRRM himself).

Targ-Velaryons wish you a happy new year (the little ones are asleep)

𝙴𝚟𝚎𝚛𝚢𝚋𝚘𝚍𝚢 𝚜𝚞𝚙𝚙𝚘𝚛𝚝𝚜 𝚠𝚘𝚖𝚎𝚗 𝚞𝚗𝚝𝚒𝚕 𝚊 𝚠𝚘𝚖𝚊𝚗'𝚜 𝚍𝚘𝚒𝚗𝚐 𝚋𝚎𝚝𝚝𝚎𝚛 𝚝𝚑𝚊𝚗 𝚢𝚘𝚞. 𝙴𝚟𝚎𝚛𝚢𝚋𝚘𝚍𝚢 𝚠𝚊𝚗𝚝𝚜 𝚢𝚘𝚞 𝚝𝚘 𝚕𝚘𝚟𝚎 𝚢𝚘𝚞𝚛𝚜𝚎𝚕𝚏 𝚞𝚗𝚝𝚒𝚕 𝚢𝚘𝚞 𝚊𝚌𝚝𝚞𝚊𝚕𝚕𝚢 𝚍𝚘...

Women in GOT/HOTD || Sofia Isella

can't believe i'm saying this but as a woman in westoros, alicent was completely in her rights to want her son on the throne over rhaenyra. as a noblewoman, she was promised two things in life: safety for her children and a son that could inherit. she was stated by otto to be the most gorgeous girl at court, she comes from a wealthy family with lots of influence and her father is hand to the king. she could have married pretty much anyone but she got stuck with viserys instead. marrying an heir from any of the other seven great houses would have afforded her children with better rights than being with him. am i saying that aegon should have been king instead of rhaenyra because he was a boy? no, of course not. but imagine your children literally being robbed of their birthright and left with absolutely nothing from their father who severely neglects them and abuses you. he didn't even bother to make aegon heir to dragonstone, which imo would have helped a lot.

givemelibertypleasw is focusing too much on show fanon, not what’s actually in the books.

Both Criston and Otto made wild accusations about her killing her siblings but Rhaenyra was ready to forgive them because she saw them as victims of Hightower ambition. She only turned on them AFTER Luke’s murder, not before.

People forget how damaging the tarnish of kinslaying is in Westerosi culture. Rhaenyra would never start her Queenship with this because it would make people turn against her.

Daemon’s shown to be a wild card in the show because the dumbass writers think passive women = feminism. In the books he’s Rhaenyra’s attack dog, he doesn’t kill without her direct order e.g. Vaemond Velaryon. So no, he wouldn’t kill her siblings because like I said kinslaying is political suicide and Rhaenyra made no indication she blames her siblings for her crown being usurped.

imo I think she would still be against kinslaying despite Luke’s death if Aemond had been punished, instead Aegon II threw him a feast. How else would a grieving mother react?

She wouldn’t kill them but she’s also smart enough to know keeping them around will have long term repercussions, especially for Jace. What I can see her do is have Daeron and Aemond sent to the Wall or to the Citadel to become Septons/Maesters that way they automatically lose their claim. She’d do the same to Jaehaerys and Maelor when they come of age. As for Aegon he would be put under house arrest, similar to what Baelor I had done to his three sisters. Helaena isn’t a threat by herself and Jaehaera could be easily married off to Joffrey.

Point is Rhaenyra had options when it came to her siblings that didn’t involve kinslaying. Options she would’ve gone through with if it wasn’t for Luke and Jace’s death and the Greens subsequent reaction to said deaths.

i don’t have anything to add, this right here is exactly it.

All of Tumblr and Twitter just turned into one giant Harwin Strong stan account and its exactly what he deserves

I would like to ask your opinion on this links, Where is argued that Rhaenyra's reign would never have been stable as long as there was a viable male heir. I think that would be slightly true except that we have Jeyne Arryn right there who yes, she had to lock up some of her cousins ​​(I think) for trying to usurp her and yes, there were conflicts after her death because she chose a successor and some decided not to respect it.

When one of the worst crimes is kinslayer and we see within the universe examples of how it is solved peacefully. I don't understand why everyone jumps to yes, without a doubt murder is the only way.

https://www.tumblr.com/bbygirl-aemond/707496074526523392/what-would-you-think-would-happen-if-the-greens?source=share

I would say that there is a male candidate under her reign who would keep those who wish to destabilize or usurp her hopeful, but the line between hopeful and actually plotting/active in this case is thicker than this person thinks. Yes, with Rhaenyra being female there are always people who will prefer any of her maniac brothers. And yes, Jeyne Arryn had trouble getting her seta having to imprison her own relatives who later stopped her chosen heir from ruling after her death. However, as I and others have already said--several times, really!--how many people actually would do something against her or try versus those who supported her and fought for her and therefore--if she had ruled--would stay behind her? Especially if greens stans and some "neutral" fans realized that it's so much less likely for dragon-less Andal lords to actually seriously harm them with their dragons outnumbering the original 3 conquerors' dragons by more than 10 if the green characters (and I mean Alicent and her kids and father) had left well enough alone.

As for Jeyne Arryn, is it not strange how it is after Rhaenyra dies and loses that another woman-ruler's wishes/authority declines after her death? What would have happened if Rhaenyra had survived and ruled without as much as she went through, how would she have responded to her Arryn cousin's will ignored? The same cousin who--unlike the Rosby and Stokeworth girls who were not blood-related--actively and personally supported her in the war? A woman who ruled her dead mother's homeland, the same house whose' sigil she added to her own wartime banner? And it's important to note that Jeyne Arryn, like Viserys, expressly vocalized/declared who her heir was while Rosby & Stokeworth's fathers did not as far as anyone knows. Finally, it's a lot easier for Rhaenyra to support Jeyne's heir or avenge them because unlike here, w/Rosby & Stokeworth she had the pressure of choosing what would make her immediate supporters happy for her immediate needs. If she had won, that pressure would have been much lighter. So if one argues that Rhaenyra would treat Jeyne Arryn exactly as she did Rosby and Stokeworth, they're not reading through the text. And if this makes Rhaenyra sound self-interested, I never said that she wasn't. In other posts, I explain who I think Rhaenyra was as a person and how she became that (pre-KL and marriages) into her becoming her later paranoid self. But I am speaking not of an individual's morality but of one very important effect of her fall on the politics of greater Westeros. Once again, Rhaenyra's loss and inability to stay as a queen affected noblewomen's ability to justify their places as rulers in their own right, which has implications for what women are able to do versus men's. To downplay that is to ignore the implications for even Daenerys, how Arianne Martell vs Stannis Baratheon use precedents and customs to explain or promote their decisions and bids for positions, etc. It is to ignore how Targ women get weaker and farther from the central seat of royal power until we have Rhaella and Dany--both literally sexually and physically abused by their own brothers. A long way from Alysanne, Visenya, and Rhaenys. It is to say, "patriarchy and thinking women shouldn't politically participate and decide for themselves how they navigate life and get any sort of support from their families/government/etc is actually good, or 'not as bad as you'd think'". Using Rhaenyra's self-centeredness and then exaggerating its quality or effect to make her pre-KL personality into something evil is making a victim a perpetrator before they actually become said perpetrator. As well as a lie. Which ironically tends to actually make perpetrators, pushes them into darker places.

Because textually there is nothing to indicate she performed any truly distinctive or evil act before or after her marriages nor her time at Dragonstone ruling it by herself. The reasons why some at Dragonstone turned against her were because some believed a man should come before a woman, because they thought that they'd gain some benefits or just survive the greens, because they wished to see the person who allowed their relatives to either try to claim a dragon or died during the Battle of the Gullet, or they were like Alfred Broome who felt that she didn't give them as many privileges as another person and for personal greed ("Rhaenyra Overthrown"):

The greed and envy part aligns with the greens' own reasons for usurping Rhaenyra. As for the Sowing by itself, those people chose of their own free will to try to ride a dragon, that's not on Rhaenyra. In the Battle, you could argue that disobeying an overlord would be enough to hate any lord and this is correct and valid except as a way to vilify Rhaenyra out of all the lords and ladies who, for centuries, have also used commonborn people for their wars. Yes, Rhaenyra is a typical aristocrat in that sense, so why should she be singled out for this specific thing? (This is not to those commonborn, but to those readers and in-story green supporters who would try to say Rhaenyra deserved punishment for this. The commonborn, just like with other lords and vassalages, can and often do, resent lords for lost or disabled relatives from war).

We already saw/see how many came out and fought for her, how they outnumbered those who didn't. (Links to a list of her supporters versus him and what he did--EXCEL SHEET; QUOTE#1 /QUOTE#2; A TUMBLR POST). Don't believe me? Check out this wiki page of the official wiki: The Greens vs the Blacks by the end of the war.

To clarify: going by how many supported Rhaenyra in the actual war, we can surmise that she had way more support than she did without. And I mean "support" by those willing to fight for her whether by the value of oath, to help their own claims, belief in her herself, or all of the above. All the while, you have to also realize that Alicent had to have tried spreading the rumors of Rhaenyra's sons' "bastardy" and Rhaenyra's own "licentiousness"--Borros' comments about her being a bitch and Lucerys her "whelp"--as to ruin her and their reputation and get others to turn against her. Didn't work for most people, evidently.

The reason why the Lannisters and Hightowers (the two main and biggest green supporters aside from Borros/the Baratheons) ever thought to rebel and participate in usurping Rhaenyra was that Viserys allowed an in to the Hightowers by marrying one of their most Faithful, conservative members and having 3 male children with her. And the Lannisters (namely Jason and Tyland), while they definitely thought males were better were not as invested in supporting the greens as far as they could capitalize on their win (and for Tyland, safety, as he was in the castle when it all went down). Rhaenyra had already rejected Jason Lannister in the show while Viserys ignored Jason as a potential husband for her in the book/original lore, so the Lannisters chose a different avenue to influence in the royal family and power. They were all so emboldened partially because they had dragonriders on their side: Aemond, Aegon, and even Helaena if they ever made the excuse to put her out there (though I seriously doubt they would) plus the hightowers' resources and influence.

Finally, when we asses why people would not "respect" Rhaenyra's rule or her heirs' vs why sometimes men and their male heirs' are not "respected" throughout "Westerosi" history, there is a clear difference. If we went back to TWoIaF, there are many examples of men and their male heirs usurped or not "respected" and killed because they were physically weak, too young, weakminded, outmatched, unlucky, etc. They were generally never killed because they turned down an offer of marriage that would benefit their spouse more or just because they were women and seen as unfit based on that alone (the first one is a society woman's plight). Meanwhile, women receive more socially sanctioned sexual or turned-up regular violence, or simply those surrounding them decided they'd rather be led by an invited male--even those men who were a past-enemy/conqueror--than have a woman/girl from the past male ruler's direct relation rule in her own right: Agnes Blackwood; Argella Durrandon; those women that Ronard the Bastard "claimed" from those he conquered; Gerold III Lannister's unnamed daughter who married Joffrey Lydden, the first Andal to rule the Rock and like Orys took his wife's name as to continue that lineage but still would overrule her; Arlan III the Storm King offered to have Roderick Blackwwod's daughter/his own good-daughter Shiera to rule with him jointly after his conquest of that part of the Riverlands, but the lords protested and said they'd rather have him than a girl so that he just added these lands to his own Duurandon domains and it ceased to be "Riverland" for a time. One can check out why this happens more often HERE, by mononijikayu. You can't choose when and where history matters and when cultural/societal ideologies matter in how they shape the present.

i think they’re releasing a trailer tomorrow for our divorced lesbians drama 🤭

“why do you stan this character, they did [insert crime], ur prawblemateec😭😭”

they have pretty face? they don’t exist? have you considered that I don’t give a fuck? let women have hobbies?…

that whole discourse with villains bores me senseless. “they are evil & cruel etc” — yes, they are, this is literally why we stan them, I’m not a pro in using some ‘very smart’ terms, so I’ll explain it in easy words.

yes, we like villains because of their nature, because they’re evil and because they have charisma, cunningness, magical, their motives and their character is intriguing NOT FUCKING BECAUSE WE ARE THE SAME😭

also “you like [insert character] because of an actor” — No!?! I like them because of their personality and if I do like them because of an actor, it’s not a fucking crime? yes, we admit we like them because of an actor, that’s the powerful aura lol.

the most confusing thing about all of this is when a person stans a morally grey character but actively shits on you and creates a whole ass ‘hate communities’ because you stan another morally grey character + ur not pure enough if you stan [insert name] 🤡🤡 + they will make you a criminal and create million lies about u and ur character + “my villain is morally superior than your villain” (kaz brekker & six of crows stans, I’m looking at u)

i will never buy your "ofc alicent lost her sht and wanted luke's eye, after what happened to her son?? and viserys did nothing to punish luke and he should have yada yada yada" remind me, when did alicent punished aegon for rping? i guess y'all support "justice" and punishing no matter for nepotism only if it fits you and rather see taking an eye from 8yo than grown ass adult taking consequences of his barbaric actions cause i have never seen one person from tg who demanded aegon to be sent to the wall but you love yapping about how he deserved throne more than rhaenyra

when was criston punished for mudering joffrey, hitting laenor, killing lord beesburry? when was alicent punished for slicing rhaenyra's arm? when was aemond punished for injuring velaryon boys and dragon twins? when was otto punished for openly speaking about treason to alicent for years? when was larys punished for mudering harwin and lyonel?

alicent protects those who serve her cause, who help to install her son on the throne bc that what she believes is her duty. she sees rhaenyra's sons as less important bc they're rumoured bastards and therefore them being involved in the fight and getting hurt doesn't matter that much, unlike aemond's losing an eye, it's not just bc how big injury is, otherwise you have to think about broken nose, head injuries, words of treason who can cost velaryon boys their lives, the actual attempts of killing luke and jace by aemond. she says herself when she snaps... it was not about aemond's eye, it's about duty and sacrifice that rhaenyra (from alicent's perspective) didn't experienced. it was not an eye for an eye, it was sacrifice for sacrifice. alicent's lost her sht bc rhaenyra's actions and her family's were once again ignored and she missed that her own sons actions were also not punished, that her wrong doings are ignored, she apologizes to viserys later... bc she believes that her behaviour on driftmark go against her duties, not bc she wanted to seek her "justice"

and the "he's your son viserys, your blood" sensless, and luke is what? or jace, rhaenyra, baela, rhaena? if she expectes luke to punished then aemond should be too. why would aemond be only one protected bc of being viserys' kin? he asked her, what she wants to do about it, the eye can't be restored. anyone who says "well luke should have been punished somehow, grounded or sth", i saw propositions that lucerys should have been sent to the wall (c'mon). she says she wants his eye. eye from 8 YEARS OLD BOY. she got her chance and that's what she demanded, expecting what? "yes alicent, that's a great idea"?? please

"rhaenyra wanted aemond to be tortured" WHEN?? she said sharply questioned, if that meant torture, there would be reactions, wouldn't be? you see people whispers when alicent demands eye of luke but there is silence now. even alicent says "for an insult my son lost an eye". she didn't said anything like "you want to torture my son bc of an insult?". your accusations against rhaenyra comes from your asses

There is too much hypocrisy in the statement “Rhaenyra always needed her daddy to support her.”

Must we bring up the subject of how Aegon wouldn’t have been anything but a waste of space his entire life if it weren’t for his mother’s scheming? She was basically the hand controlling the puppet.

I fail to remember when Aegon himself called a Council upon his father’s death, to assert his dominance and take the throne for himself. Oh right, I can only remember Alicent doing that for him.

Did Aegon arrange his own coronation? Nope. Alicent and Otto did that for him.

What about marriage prospects for him after Helaena died? Alicent handled that for him again.

Alicent has been holding her son’s hand throughout this whole war, and you’re going to criticize Rhaenyra for the fact that her father publicly and proudly supports her claim, as his chosen heir?

Rhaenyra Targaryen was the heir to the throne, and it was expected of her father, the King who named her heir, to support her until his dying breath (which he did).

Whenever people act like it's perfectly chill for Rhaenyra to pass her *known* bastard sons as heirs to the iron throne, I remember that Alicent would not be offered such grace if it was she who had known bastards and was trying to pass them as heirs. 🥴