#pro jedi meta | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

bibxrbie · 1 month

Text

"Luke Skywalker isn’t like the old Jedi. He saves Vader with his attachments!”

Wrong!

Luke Skywalker, at the end of Return of the Jedi, after his confrontation with the Emperor drags Darth Vader through the destructing Death Star. He’s desperate, knuckles white under the heavy weight of his father’s body, a little boy dragging his dad to safety. He sets Vader down for a moment, to catch his breath or maybe to get a better grip. He goes to grab Vader again, but Vader, uncomfortable and in pain, asks Luke to take off the mask. He wants to see Luke through his eyes instead of the eyes Palpatine built for him. Luke refuses, says that removing the mask is a sure way for Vader to die. Luke doesn’t want Vader dead, he wants Vader alive. Not to hold him accountable for his many evil acts, but for the same reason why Luke Skywalker can’t kill Darth Vader; Vader is his father and Luke loves him.

And yet, after a moment, Luke removes Vader’s mask. He doesn’t want to, he hesitates, but he removes the mask with enough slowness to allow Vader to take it back. In that moment, Luke sets aside his desire for Vader in his life, sets aside his desire to see him live, and sets aside his entire mission, the reason he was even on the Death Star in the place. In his compassion for his father, Luke stays with Vader until he dies. It is this moment where we see him be the best damn Jedi he can be. I’d even argue that this moment is the greatest example of non-attached love we see. Because Luke lets Vader go! He lets his father die, and in some ways, by removing the mask, he too kills Vader, he stays with him until his last moment, gives him the kindness of granting his last wish and finally chooses Vader.

And Luke doesn’t have to do this. If Luke Skywalker’s love for his father was an attachment, he would ignore Vader and continue dragging him to the escape pod, put his desire for a father as his central focus and ignore Vader’s wants and discomfort. Maybe he would even save him. But he doesn’t. Instead, he watches as Vader dies.

He builds a Jedi burial for his father and watches it burn the remnants of Vader and Anakin Skywalker away. He mourns Vader, he mourns what they could’ve had as father and son, considers what ifs and maybe-if-I-did-this. Vader/ Anakin is released from his mortal body, from his ‘crude matter’ and Luke lets him go. He says one final goodbye to Anakin. Then, he joins Leia, Han, Chewie, Lando, and the rest of the Rebels and celebrates their victory. He lives in the present and celebrates what he has instead of what he lost.

Luke Skywalker is THE Jedi. Everything about Luke Skywalker serves as the foundational cornerstone of the Jedi, everything about the Jedi as a culture and philosophy is reflected in his character. Luke’s desire for the New Jedi Order isn’t to throw away the values of the old Order, but to vitalise them, breathe life back into dying lungs, and rebuild a path that people set out on their way to destroy. (Yes, his Order is different from the Old, but that’s because it has to be. He doesn’t have the resources or the safety of the Old Order.) The philosophies of the Jedi are difficult and they aren’t for everyone, and like the perfect Jedi that Luke is, he struggles and stumbles and sometimes he even rejects it. But, no matter how far he falls, it is a way of life he chooses again and again and again. It is a way of life that welcomes him back each time

1K notes · View notes

friend-of-kyoshi · 1 month

Text

“Jedi are firemen in a world where the police won’t arrest arsonists.”

#pro jedi #jedi friendly #star wars meta #star wars #jedi

466 notes · View notes

david-talks-sw · 1 year

Text

These are the only three flaws I will concede, when it comes to the Jedi during the Prequels.

“They got lax/complacent.”

Yeah*. If you listen to the director’s commentary, George Lucas states the scene in AOTC with Jocasta Nu is there to indicate how unprepared the Jedi were before the Sith’s plan. They thought they were secure and ready but they were not and it turns out humble restaurant owners like Dex know things they don't.

*HOWEVER: Who wouldn’t be complacent, in times of peace?

The Sith were thought to be extinct and Dooku was once a Jedi, a revered one at that. Nobody could have suspected he’d betray the Order that raised him and loved him.

Nobody could've suspected that he'd abuse of their trust and delete a system from the Archives using the credentials of his best friend who he'd had assassinated. That's a verrrry specific scenario, and expecting them to be prepared for that is unreasonable.

"They should've sensed something!" Well, by this point in time, everything surrounding the Jedi was tainted by the Dark Side, which clouded everything. So on the one hand, this situation granted Sidious the gift of foresight and allowed them to always be one step ahead, and on the other, it caused the Jedi to be stuck trekking ahead in a fog, unsure of what the next move would be.

“They were politically-inept.”

Yes**. That’s how the Sith ran circles around the Jedi. They figured “there’s only two of us, if we march into the Temple we’ll get slaughtered, but wait, the Jedi serve the Senate and the Senate is run by politicians… what if we become the politicians? Then we can destroy the Jedi and the principles from the inside!”

**HOWEVER: The Jedi were politically-inept by choice.

After all, their function isn’t setting policy but carrying it out. They’re not politicians, they’re diplomats and as such they're not allowed to get involved in the political process.

But if they were... they still wouldn't. Because power corrupts, and if you let the space monks (who already have magical powers) have political power too, then that will lead to a very dark place.

The Jedi knew that if they tried to play politics, they’ll lose because they have neither the ruthlessness nor the status to do it well, so they make it a point of never going anywhere near it.

Unfortunately, that leaves them open to situations where the Senate or Palpatine corner them into doing something they really don’t wanna do.

It's how they were forced to expel Ahsoka, how they lost the favor of the citizens and it's how Dooku, then the Emperor, framed them as power-hungry sorcerers with his propaganda.

“The war made them hypocrites.”

Sure***. The Jedi were meant to be diplomats, not soldiers. By waging war instead of keeping the peace, they’ve compromised on their values.

***HOWEVER: The Jedi know this and they’re not happy about it at all.

Firstly, because they were forced into this situation by the Senate and Palpatine, who drafted them into service.

Secondly, because they know they’re essentially moving ahead blindly and playing right into the Sith Lord’s hand by fighting this war he orchestrated.

But finally, it’s that they know that not joining would’ve been worse. Sticking by their principles would’ve resulted in the enslavement and genocide of many populations. Sometimes, the spirit of the rules must be prioritized over the letter. Either do nothing and be true to your principles, or go against them but save lives.

It’s a bad choice to make, but not as bad as not making one.

It's a bad choice, but it's motivated by a desire to do some good and it did. They saved countless lives (sometimes at the cost of their own) and inspired countless more to form the Rebellion, later on.

So... three flaws.

But they all come with asterisks. There’s a reasonable (sometimes, even admirable) justification for each of them.

I’m pointing these out because a lot of people seem to conflate “the Jedi were flawed” with “the Jedi were at fault” when talking about their own demise. And the answer to that is:

No.

The Jedi were not at fault. Everybody else was.

The Senate was at fault for growing corrupt and self-serving.

Big Corp for their never ending greed.

The Separatists for being so blind and naive as to think Big Corp would tooootally value their principles and absolutely not commit war crimes every chance they get.

The Sith for being the mass-murdering egotistical assholes who started this whole mess.

And the citizens of the galaxy for not taking up arms in the face of blatant injustice.

Sometimes bad people win.

That doesn't always mean the good guys are at fault. Sometimes, the bad guys are just… better at the game. Mostly because they see it as a game, and the good guys don't.

Luckily, 20 years later, most of the above faults were rectified by the Rebellion, which was led by the best of the Senate, and composed of Separatist remnants and brave citizens of the galaxy.

#star wars #jedi order #clone wars #prequel trilogy #pro jedi #in defense of the jedi #long post #sw meta #this came up in a discussion I had on Reddit and I figured I'd share it here too

3K notes · View notes

maidenvault · 1 year

Text

RotJ makes a point of letting us know that Leia is Luke's sister, they've known this on some level for a long time, and he probably cares more about her than anyone in the world because this gives so much more weight to his conflict at the end of the movie, and I think this is a huge thing people overlook when they argue that him redeeming his father represents a rejection of the old Jedi ways of non-attachment. Because in the moment he has to let go of Leia and his friends to be able to actually save Anakin.

When Obi-Wan tries to convince Luke that he has to kill Vader and there's no other way, he doesn’t really discuss it as an issue of Luke having an attachment to him. I think he knows this isn't really the Jedi way but just like in the previous war, they don't seem to be faced with any good choices. Obi-Wan believes what Luke wants is truly impossible and, having failed to stop Vader when he could have before, of course he's trying to stop Luke from making the same mistake.

But it's significant that in the same conversation, Obi-Wan does warn him that his love for his sister could be made a liability if he's not careful. When Luke learns he has a twin and reveals how strong a connection he feels with Leia because he doesn't even have to be told who it is, Obi-Wan's response sets up how this will play into the climax of the film:

"Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor."

Then when Luke is brought to Sidious, he reveals to Luke that the Rebellion is walking right into a trap as a way to torment and provoke him. Luke gets angrier and angrier while helplessly watching the fleet get ambushed and finally does just what Sidious wants and tries to attack him. But it's Vader specifically threatening Leia that makes Luke totally lose control of his feelings and fight him in a rage.

Luke is basically facing the same kind of test he failed so badly in ESB by running off to help his friends. When Yoda is trying to make him see he's not ready to face Vader and keep him from going to Bespin, he says something that I think is such an underrated quote in its importance to Luke's whole journey:

"Decide you must how to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could, but you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered."

Luke is really lucky he doesn't get killed in Cloud City (or captured, which I think at this point could have resulted in him being turned). Yoda knows Luke is the one person with a chance of defeating the Emperor and Luke just about throws that away.

But at the end of RotJ when Luke cuts off Vader's hand, he surely is reminded of his failure at Bespin and sees the path he's starting down by succumbing to his fears like that again. He stops because he sees he's betraying his loved ones and everything he is. He can only throw away his weapon and confidently tell the Emperor to eat shit then because he's no longer afraid of dying or of those he loves dying. He's done what his father couldn't do and kept his soul intact, which is what Leia would want. Because real love isn't selfishly trying to save someone by betraying what they believe in like Anakin did with Padme. And it obviously has to be an incredibly powerful thing for Vader to see his own son able to do this, even comparing himself to the man he once was ("I am a Jedi, like my father before me").

We remember everything working out okay so it's easy sometimes to forget that Luke gives this triumphant speech when the rebel fleet is getting pulverized outside and things overall still look pretty hopeless. He probably expects he could die at this point. But like Obi-Wan in his own death scene, he knows nothing can destroy him now. And it's the love he feels for his family that gives him the strength to let go.

#luke skywalker #anakin skywalker #leia organa #jedi order #pro jedi #star wars #meta #my meta

533 notes · View notes

jebiknights · 4 months

Text

Sometimes I just remember that oh right it's apparently a slightly controversial opinion that I think if Palpatine hadn't been involved at all that Anakin could've been perfectly happy and fulfilled with the Jedi.

Like just from rots we see Anakin want to follow Jedi ideals, to seek advice and even help from the very Jedi that fandom loves to act like he hates and who hate him in return, and we see the Jedi around him actually have a lot of respect for him! But every time he makes progress Palpatine is whispering in his ear and pulling out the stitches and re-opening the wounds, making it near impossible for him to actually grow as a Jedi and instead he grows closer to Falling. Not to mention the war, which was orchestrated in part to actively challenge the Jedi's morals and make them make bad and questionable choices.

Plenty of Legends canon and even current canon in things like the marvel comics show Anakin actively wrestling and considering Jedi philosophy, the pros and cons, and working through all his trauma and trying to figure out what's right for him and what the Jedi code actually means. People act like he only ever does lightsaber training and that he never picked up a book in his entire padawanship (which not only is just not how the Jedi Order works from what we see but honestly is just a boring take on the character imo).

Like, I just don't think that Anakin is actually incompatible with the Jedi Order! I think he could've thrived there if he wasn't being actively sabotaged and also had more time.

#anakin skywalker #jedi positive #pro jedi #anyway i also dont think that the jedi order is incompatible with romance just that anakin has trauma about #his interpersonal attachments and that he didnt get a great teaching on it in canon bc obi wan needs therapy #nd so never really discussed it with anakin #which is not necessarily a shot at obi wan i just think that entire lineage has communication issues lmao #like obi wan has both trauma and oin legends actual healthy relationships and exes he no longer dates #who were jedi!#but like he doesnt actually discuss this with anakin?#and tbh thats the most canon to me lmao obi wan just doesnt realize he needs to talk about it or maybe how?#anakin #sw meta #sorta lmao #jedi order

168 notes · View notes

cerulianvermillion · 11 months

Text

Jedi culture is so fascinating... I'd love a post-war everything is okay AU where we get a taste of Jedi culture. Not the clone wars-era jedi culture that we know of...but actual jedi culture. Like the one obi-wan grew up with, something ahsoka and even anakin never got to experience because of the war. Like the ones we see in the books about obi-wans padawan years, of course, combining canon and legends in a way that makes sense- maybe we can have the younger ones of the disaster lineage learn a bit about Tahl, more Tahl is always a good idea. Maybe we can delve into Mace and Qui-gon's years of padawanship and being initiates- or maybe even old jedi culture, the one Yoda is familiar with.

405 notes · View notes

simpleslugs · 6 months

Text

My favorite thing about Star Wars is the hilariously inconsistent descriptions of the force. Is it in us all? Is it magic? What is a midachlorian?! Who knows!! But, that silly lil monkey lizard in Jabba's palace is named Salacious B. Crumb, so there's that.

#star wars #anakin skywalker #padme amidala #star wars fandom #anakin and padme #star wars prequels #the force is strong with this one #the force works in mysterious ways #the force is with me #jedi #jedi order #star wars meta #sw meta #pro jedi #the force awakens #the force unleashed #midachlorians

297 notes · View notes

lightsaberlinguist · 4 months

Text

Honestly, it makes me sad that some fans of the Jedi have such a strong hatred for Ahsoka because Filoni uses her as a conduit for all of his room-temp takes™️ about the Jedi. On one level I think Ahsoka is sort of the perfect character to explore the relationship O66 survivors have with their memories of the Order and I don't think taking her words as objective fact of the universe is an interesting or worthwhile interaction with them. The oft-worshipped "Lucas Canon" of the Jedi stands whether or not Ahsoka is written as "critical" of the Jedi. It's a closed circuit, and the other stuff does not hold the same weight.

On the other level I think hating a fictional character—which is to say, nothing more than words on a page spoken by an actor and animated/costumed by artists—to the point of posting long-winded takedowns of them for anything is just plain childish and not really worth anyone's time? It takes a lot of sustained anger to write 1,500 word rants about some guy that doesn't exist. IMO it's "get a new hobby" levels of sustained anger.

Ahsoka is interesting to me as both a solemn devotee of the teachings of her childhood and as a bitter, traumatized survivor trying to reconcile her need to pass on these teachings with the narrative she made for herself to "explain" what is ultimately a senseless genocide. If you don't agree, cool! Take a deep breath and go play with the figurines of the characters you do like. It's a free country, y'all.

#sw meta #pro jedi #ahsoka tano #ahsoka tv #before someone misconstrues my words i do not like filoni's cold takes about the jedi either #i just choose to let it flow through me and back out into the world #i'm protecting my peace y'all should protect yours and not get into fights on the internet

101 notes · View notes

dumdumsquad · 10 months

Text

It's funny when people criticise the Jedi by saying the order wasn't right for a somewhat traumatized kid who grew up as a slave and just left his mother.

Cause, you know, maybe that's true. It's certainly very plausible. And you know who would've agreed with you? The entire Jedi council at the time. They were literally saying it wasn't going to be a good fit. That Anakin and the order might not be right for each other.

But of course they somehow get shit for that too.

#star wars #star wars meta #in defense of the jedi #pro jedi #Jedi #jedi council #anakin #anakin skywalker

300 notes · View notes

bibxrbie · 6 months

Text

Every time I see the Star Wars fandom characterise Luke as apolitical or unpolitical, or in some ways unaware of politics, I get so incredibly frustrated.

"Luke joined the Rebel Alliance to fly. He just loves to fly!"

Shut up! Luke Skywalker isn't some idiot, gallivanting around the galaxy for shits and giggles.

ANH shows that even before he found Artoo he had intentions of joining the Rebel Alliance as a pilot, not because he loved to fly, but because he knew that he was a good pilot and that was how he could contribute to the liberation of the people from the Empire. But he also knew that he lacked the training needed to fly in space and that his family could not afford to send him into space, so he intended to join the Imperial Fleet, knowingly taking advantage of the system, to get him both of these things, to abandon the Fleet and joining the Rebellion.

Luke Skywalker grew up under the influence of two oppressive regimes: Hutt Space and the Empire. Slavery was literally happening in his backyard, and he was not unaware of it. Even though he was never a slave, you can't tell me that didn't have an effect on him? Seeing people owned and sold and destroyed like they're nothing; hell, he comes from a family of slaves! ROTJ shows that he has opinions about the Hutt empire too: wearing black in a desert world, refusing to speak Huttese even when he may understand the language? Political rebellion, baby. Maybe he even joined the Rebellion in hopes of using their power after destroying the Empire to one day get rid of the Hutts, which would make sense for him to think considering the Empire has only existed for 20 years and the Hutt empire lived for a lot longer

Also, he denies Vader's offer to rule the galaxy. Yes, it is a moment of trauma and anguish, but also he denies it because he fundamentally disagrees with the system of imperial fascism. He would literally die than willingly join the Empire.

He is political! He is aware of politics and oppression, and he is pro-revolution!

The other Star Wars content makes a point to show this. He frees slaves from the Empire, reads history and philosophy and gets angry at people who trade Jedi artefacts on the black market and at those who willingly work with the Empire.

He might not have the education, power, or language that Leia had, but he has political opinions. And to eradicate that part of his character is an injustice to him.

#vent post #luke skywalker #star wars #leia organa #darth vader #the empire #star wars: a new hope #star wars: empire strikes back #star wars: return of the jedi #anakin skywalker #pro jedi #jedi #star wars meta

774 notes · View notes

h4lftruths4ndhyperb0le · 7 months

Text

So is there a middle ground between jedi positive and jedi critical? Like, a “the jedi were a source of light in the galaxy but in the face of growing darkness and oppression in the galaxy were put into a position where those ideals were sometimes twisted or lead to impossible choices, and anyway, they weren’t perfect, because they’re human and no one is” position?

Honestly a lot my beliefs about this go back to the jedi code and the idea that there’s another version that says “__ yet __” instead of “there is no __, only __” and I just feel like the nuance of the old is better, and that something was lost in that change, but I also think the jedi were a good overall organization and group, just too much under the influence and control of the senate, and therefore susceptible to skeevy sheevy’s machinations

#star wars #pro jedi #jedi realistic #idk what to call it #obi wan #i just want them to return to the old code #just don’t deal in absolutes #meta #star wars meta #obi wan kenobi

181 notes · View notes

fairypowerful · 8 months

Text

Before I begin, I just wanna throw these out:

• “ ‘Missing out on love’ isn't something that matters as much when your society isn't amatonormative.”

• “When the world around you doesn't emphasize marriage and romance and all that, then wouldn't you view cultures that do as a tad odd? Not weird in a bad way, just different.”

• “[…] People cannot fathom the concept that other people might experience romantic attraction, and do so intensely, and yet value something else above romance.”

• You just don’t have those feelings of “I need romance, I need marriage” when your society isn’t broken by being amatonormativity. You just don’t have those feelings when you’re already fulfilled in a community. You just don’t have those feelings when you have a purpose in life.

• “Call me crazy, but I know for a fact that I would not want a romantic relationship if I was a Jedi […] […] […] I honestly don't understand the assumption that ‘the Jedi are miserable because they can't get married,’ I really don't.”

• There’s romance and marriage in every single media and literature, so why should it be inserted into a fictional monastic culture? If you don’t think entire groups of people could choose to have no romantic commitments their entire life, then there’s over a thousand-year nonfictional accounts of monks and nuns and priests choosing to live a single life in an environment that, too, forbids them from romantic commitments, and they lived in contentment and peace.

————————————————

I wanted to show all that first, like a little preview, because this post is not only about why the Jedi are not wrong for disallowing romantic commitments and marriage, but it’s also about amatonormativity which has always been an enormous problem in the real world, and it clearly impacts how people view communities like the Jedi within fiction.

———

“So why can't Jedi marry? The Jedi believe that children and spouses deserve complete attention. They believe that people deserve present parents and involved partners. Being a Jedi isn't a job. It's a lifestyle. How dare they preach compassion and fairness and justice whilst leaving some abandoned child somewhere? How dare they teach kindness and love and self sacrifice while having a neglected spouse?” — @popupguidetothegalaxy (original post here)

This right here! It wouldn’t stop the criticisms within that part of the fandom, it’d just redirect it to a different one.

Even if the Jedi did marry and have families, y’all (Jedi antis) would then criticize the Jedi for prioritizing the galaxy (which is literally their vocation, their aspiration, and their lifestyle) over their spouses and children.

On top of their daily galactic duties that « take them away from the temple on assignments or missions, away from the planet that temple is located on, and always on the move interstellar-wise » ,,, antis think the Jedi should/could be able to marry and raise a family properly with zero neglect of either spouse and child?

Forget about being burnt out like a nurse in a severely understaffed hospital, it’s just simply an impossible commitment!

———

I watched “Tiger Cruise” rather recently, because it’s one of those Disney movies I never watched growing up, and one conversation in the movie puts this into even more perspective – because the teenaged main character is sick & tired of always only seeing her Navy commander father for a few weeks every few months, begging him to quit the Navy and come home for good.

Maddie: Dad, when are you coming home?

Commander Dolan: What do you mean? We're gonna be docking on Friday.

Maddie: No, I mean… When are you coming home for good?

Commander Dolan: Is that why you came on board? To ask me that? [pause] Look, this is my job.

Maddie: Then get a new one. You've got the degrees, you can do like anything you want.

Commander Dolan: This is what I do.

Maddie: [pause] Must be nice .. travel all over the world, no responsibilities.

Commander Dolan: I'm responsible to a lot of people.

Maddie: To strangers, Dad. What about us? [pause] We’re strangers too. We move all over the place, see you for a few weeks every four or five months, or whenever the Navy says it's okay.

Commander Dolan: The Navy is a way of life. I mean, you go into it and you know the sacrifices you have to make.

Maddie: Well, you’ve done it for my entire life.

Seriously, is this what Jedi antis want? It’s misery, and not necessarily on the parent’s part — he’s HAPPY and LOVES his job. He has the degrees to do anything he wants, as Maddie pointed out, but he doesn’t leave the Navy. It’s the same with the Jedi, as they have the best education and biggest library in the galaxies. And yet…

(some Jedi-Critical) and Anti-Jedi fans think the Jedi are miserable and why the Order is “wrong” for disallowing it [which is just projecting their subjective view of “what a fulfilling life is supposed to look like” onto a monastic people who value and find fulfillment in something other than romance], but it would actually be miserable if they did have families.

Pushing aside the fact that the Jedi are a monastic (and not only martial) organization, there’s a legit reason for disallowing marriage and committed relationships. It’s not fun and games. You can’t combine two enormous commitments and think you can handle it without neglecting the other. There’s no such thing as a part-time Jedi, it’s not a job title!

Jedi are able to leave the Order peacefully, they aren’t forced to stay, but on this specific topic, you just don’t have those feelings of « I need romance, I need marriage » when your society isn’t broken by being amatonormativity. You just don’t have those feelings when you’re already fulfilled in a community. You just don’t have those feelings when you have a purpose in life.

How dare they be happy and fulfilled by being Jedi? How dare they show their commitment to the Order by making the active and daily choice to be Jedi, when they could leave any time? How dare they stick their middle finger up at the no-romance/no-marriage rule? How dare the Jedi not conform to the “education → graduation → relationship → engagement → wedding → 2 kids and a dog” trajectory that only an amatonormative society expects of you? How dare the Jedi be monastic and live like it too?

———

(Words belong to @phoenixyfriend)

• “ ‘Missing out on love’ isn't something that matters as much when your society isn't amatonormative”

• “When your culture is one that emphasizes compassion for all [...] Don't you think that people might just not think of marriage as something worth striving for?”

• “When the world around you doesn't emphasize marriage and romance and all that, then wouldn't you view cultures that do as a tad odd? Not weird in a bad way, just different.”

I just keep thinking about the real world and how so much of the obsession with marriage and so on is a sociocultural thing. You don't want a big white dress because it's a big white dress: you want it because it is the symbol that your culture has been pushing on you since you were two. Girls are taught to fantasize about weddings and marriage and to like A Certain Look for it, sometimes to such a degree that they can spend decades in denial about things like their sexualities.

And we're unlearning that as a society, people are being more critical of the institution and how they engage with it, are starting to question what it is that our media teaches us, asking 'why is marriage the most important thing in a girl's life, or in anyone's life' and generally moving towards a world where marriage exists but is not treated as a universal life goal.

But the Jedi are just. Already doing that.”

• “Marriage is not an inherent human/sapient want. Companionship is! We are biologically wired to be social creatures! […] But marriage? A signed sheet of paper? That's not...inherent. Fidelity and monamory? Sure, maybe. Plenty of species mate for life. But... humans have been proving that's a choice for most of history.”

— (original post, here)

Even without the galactic scale of their lifestyle and duties, is it really so hard to understand or believe that people wouldn’t be miserable in a society where romance is not considered an important thing at all?

If you don’t think entire groups of people could choose to have no romantic commitments their entire life, then there’s over a thousand-years history of monks and nuns choosing to live a single life in an environment that, too, forbids them from romantic commitments, and they lived in contentment and peace.

They’re not only connected to other Jedi through the Force, they are connected to the rest of the universe through the Force; they find joy in their selflessness, in helping people, in trying their best to do good in a universe permeated with corruption. They love being a Jedi, there’s nothing a romantic relationship can give them that’s as fulfilling as being Jedi.

Just…stop projecting your amatonormative misery onto the Jedi.

———

If millions of people around the world in real-life can choose not to ever get married and have children (without even being a part of a close-knit community like the Jedi), despite being bombarded with amatonormativity in media and literature almost everyday, then what’s so weird about a fictional group (who are literally warrior-monks and whom have all of their companionship needs met within their non-amatonormative community) choosing to be single in favor of a higher calling and lifestyle that’s far more valuable and fulfilling than having a romantic relationship?

———

(Words belong to @jedi-enthusiast)

• “Call me crazy, but I know for a fact that I would not want a romantic relationship if I was a Jedi.

If I lived somewhere where I was a part of a community of people that I considered my mentors, my friends, my family; if I lived somewhere where I was encouraged to learn, to travel, to help people, to enjoy life as it is, and better myself; if I lived somewhere where I was supported and loved and cared for by the community, and I did the supporting, the loving, the caring for other people in the community as well; if I lived somewhere where it wasn't constantly implied, or sometimes outright stated, that my worth was tied to me marrying a man, popping out children, and making money...

...if I was a Jedi, I can honestly say that the thought of pursuing a romantic relationship probably wouldn't cross my mind at all---not unless I met someone specific whom I felt that sort of connection with, but even then, I probably wouldn't give up being a Jedi to be with them because I'd feel more fulfilled as a Jedi than I would in a romantic relationship.

I honestly don't understand the assumption that the Jedi are miserable because they can't get married, I really don't.

If you feel like you wouldn't be able to be fulfilled without a romantic partner, then that's fine! Everyone's different! We all have different wants and needs! But just accept that you wouldn't be fulfilled without a romantic relationship and stop acting like it's impossible for anyone else to feel differently.

The Jedi all seem perfectly happy as they are.”

— (original post, here)

I also wanna add, because I don’t know where to put this statement … there’s romance and marriage in every single media and literature, so why should it be inserted into a fictional monastic culture? They’re not only warriors, they’re monks too.

It’s a rhetorical question…but I think either they’re so marriage-obsessed that they hadn’t thought of this. Or they are consciously aware of the over-saturation of romance within media when they talk about how the Jedi Order are wrong for disallowing romantic relationships, but they don’t care because they think higher callings are stupid and anything else is inferior to a romance/marriage.

———

(Words belong to @tookas-have-teeth) (original post here)

• “There is a difference between people saying that everyone feels romantic attraction and that it is necessary to being human [arophobia] and the comments a lot of people make about the Jedi.

Oftentimes, when I see complaints about the Jedi, it's because people are angry that people who DO feel romantic attraction might not choose to act on it, or might be part of an organization that requires its members to give up romantic relationships and marriage. People cannot fathom the concept that other people might experience romantic attraction, and do so intensely, and yet value something else above romance.

People consider this to be a cruel denial and repression of one's feelings, rather than seeing it as a choice people are making to prioritize things they value. People have SO bought into the idea that romance is the Ultimate Form of Love, that romance is necessary to live a fulfilled life, that they cannot imagine folks finding other forms of love more fulfilling, especially if those folks experience romantic attraction.”

—

[a comment within the post linked immediately above] “By claiming that people who experience romantic attraction *must* act on it or else they are oppressed, one is functionally insulting every priest, monk, nun, or any number of members of a religious order who choose, of their own free will, not to pursue romance in favor of a higher calling.” — @supersaiyanjedi14

———

There’s only two other fictional worlds that I can think of off the top of my head, that are non-amatonormative. Blissfully fulfilled and happy …

… Equestria (My Little Pony) and Pixie Hollow (Disney Fairies).

After learning the word, I could now put a name to why these two worlds are my top favorites: It’s a non-amatonormative society where everyone’s happy with just a community and a purpose in their life, where romance is 100% not an important factor.

“But in Pixie Hollow, there’s no reproduction, so of course there wouldn’t be any relationships.”

There’s still love and attraction.

Rosetta gets a crush on Sled in Secret of the Wings, Queen Clarion and Lord Milori reveal they fell in love in the distant past. And Terrence has a crush on TinkerBell (although that might just be the printed media, ‘cause I don’t remember it being obvious in the movies).

Is it really so hard to understand or believe that in a society where romance is not considered an important thing at all, and people have (literal) power and a job that they love and a whole damn community for companionship, then those people wouldn’t be miserable?

So, again, stop projecting your allonormative and amatonormative misery onto the Jedi. ‘Cause that’s all it is: your projection.

It’s so sad that the real world can’t be like the aforementioned worlds. Our world makes it so hard for people; a majority don’t have jobs they love, or they don’t have time or money to pursue and grow their talents, and there’s no true community among us. It’s literally dystopian, and we only see it as “this is normal, it’s real life” because we don’t know any other way. But that’s quite a different topic, so…

—

I just wanted to add these, unrelated to Star Wars and fandoms, to point out how destructive it [amatonormativity and allonormativity] is in the real world. ‘Cause I do see tweets on my timeline, from time to time, where a user will be torn over not having a relationship at a certain age or their life not following the ‘right’ trajectory.

[posts by people outside of the Star Wars fandom]

— @uncanny-tranny (original post here)

• Amatonormativity has destroyed so many people's understanding and acceptance of themselves, and it's heartbreaking.

Yes, it is normal to be in your 20s, 30s, or older and not have lost your virginity, had a first kiss, or a partner. It is normal to say that you aren't ready for those things, too! It is normal if your life doesn't follow the "college graduate -> engagement -> buying a home -> 2.5 kids and a dog" trajectory that so many people have idealized.

So many people associate maturity with losing your virginity, or having a first kiss, or a serious relationship, and I think that's a dangerous association. Maturity isn't gained through those things, and you don't have to have those experiences to be considered "mature" or "grown." It is not a bad thing to go at your pace. Nobody else can live your life but you. If you end up having those experiences, that's great! But it should be done because you want to experience them, not because you feel "broken" and "immature" without them.

— @/acegirleatscake on Twitter

• Allonormativity and amatonormativity normalizes ableism: the “you must be cold, sick, delusional” or “there’s something wrong with you” if you don’t have sexual or romantic attractions or don’t want those types of relationships. Being single is seen as “being unwell.”

@/0p4l3sc3nt for this one (below)

• […] single people are constantly questioned about the legitimacy of our happiness […] In an Amatonormative society, our romantic relationships will always have ulterior motives (often subconscious) – which arise from us being conditioned to see romantic relationships as the means to achieve personhood, happiness, and TRUE purpose.

———

Sincerely, everyone in the Anti-Jedi circle needs to go outside, touch grass, and reflect on it.

If our society wasn’t amatonormative (if there was no such thing as our idealization of romance and marriage, if romantic relationships weren’t seen as the most important thing at all in our society), then nobody would have an issue with the Jedi Order disallowing it — for many legit reasons, might I again remind you! Their reasons make so much sense, yet your amatonormativity floods in and turns your brain into worms.

• “Fiction doesn't necessarily map onto people's real life opinions, but the statements people make about this topic are often very broad "the Jedi are bad for forbidding marriage, because people NEED romance" type statements that definitely sound like they're general worldviews rather than just opinions on fictional characters.” — @tookas-have-teeth (again)

This post was left in my drafts from a month ago (early August 2023), but seeing the topic come up again just made me kinda snap; and I don’t want to just scream into the void, so I’m posting it.

And I don’t care how repetitive some of it is, because that was very intentional. They’re like little reminders, so you don’t miss the point and might actually reflect on it.

HAVE A GOOD DAY!

#star wars #amatonormativity #pro jedi #fictional monastic cultures do not need romance or marriage when every single media is non-monastic and oversaturated with romance #in defense of the jedi #long post #allonormativity #this was in my drafts but I’m taking it out ‘cause I’m just sick and tired of ppl acting like the Jedi are miserable over the Order’s rule #I’m taking it out because I’m just so sick and tired of ppl acting like the Jedi don’t make the active daily CHOICE to be a Jedi #I’m sick and tired of allonormative and amatonormative-minded ppl in the fandom #thank you George Lucas for creating the Jedi #sw meta #star wars meta #I wish our society could be more like Equestria and Pixie Hollow and the Jedi #Our society is a dystopia

152 notes · View notes

david-talks-sw · 10 months

Note

I can’t remember which post it was off the top of my head but you’ve mentioned how George was explicit that nothing in The Clone Wars directly influences Anakin’s fall to the Dark Side, what about indirectly? There’s the obvious one: Anakin finds it easier to give into his anger as the war goes on. But I was also thinking the events of Hardeen and Wrong Jedi arcs weaken Anakin’s trust in the Order that then plays into the circumstances in which his fall to the Dark Side took place. Like that weakened trust meant Anakin distanced himself which gives context for why he refused to go to Obi-Wan when the visions started.

It also fits with his character because one of Anakin’s flaws is that he takes things way to personally, e.g. he was not the only person the Council lied to about Obi-Wan’s fake death. Then when Ahsoka was leaving the Order after the Council let her down, which they did let her down, she had to remind Anakin that it was about her not him.

Of course weakened trust is nowhere near enough to cause someone to commit genocide and Anakin didn’t seem to make any effort to mend those fences either. And of course none of this would have happened without Palpatine manipulating things. Hence my question of how you think The Clone Wars indirectly influenced his journey to the Dark Side even as none of really tied to why Anakin ultimately fell.

I think you summed it up perfectly, actually.

If you're using Lucas' word as the "be-all, end-all", then The Clone Wars is indeed just an asterisk/addendum to the story of the films.

Its purpose? Providing context for the minor changes between Episode II and Episode III, changes that aren't exactly relevant to the story of Anakin's downfall.

"Anakin seems more mature and less whiny, in Episode III, what happened to change that?" He got a Padawan of his own during the Clone War and when you're put in charge of someone, you grow up real quick.

"He and Obi-Wan were constantly bickering in Episode II, now they're best buds, why?" In Episode II, Anakin was in Obi-Wan's care but felt he needed to leave the nest, whereas Obi-Wan was being a helicopter parent. In The Clone Wars, we see that once Anakin gets knighted, their relationship smooths over, now becoming a more brotherly bond than a parent/child one. Obi-Wan will sometimes worry that Anakin will fly off the handle, but he's also able to recognize his former Padawan is now his own man, whereas Anakin takes responsibility more frequently, now, due to now having a Padawan of his own.

"What's the relationship between Anakin and the other Jedi we saw in the background of the movies?" Find out by tuning in to The Clone Wars!

"The clones have names, now? And they're the Jedi's friends, when did all that happen!" You can find out by seeing them fight side-by-side with the Jedi and slowly becoming independent thinkers, only in The Clone Wars.

"The Jedi are more scheming and political in Episode III, they and Anakin are at odds... why the shift in attitudes?" They were drafted into a war, and forced to make compromise after compromise to a point where their values have been rendered pointless and they've become begrudging hypocrites. They're playing politics (and sucking at it) because they've been dragged onto a political chessboard and are trying to keep up with a far more skilled opponent. These terrible decisions impact all of them, even Anakin.

Stuff like that.

But none of that is relevant to Anakin's story, which is more personal, in nature. It's a story about how his own greed turned him into the very thing he swore to destroy, which parallels how the Republic became the Empire for those same reasons.

The films show us this, and The Clone Wars *reinforces* this narrative by giving us further examples of it.

While Anakin is aware of what's right and wrong... the more the war rages on, the more frequently he takes the "easy" path and gives in to his anger and selfish desires, enabled by Palpatine.

Sometimes Anakin does manage to get a grip, he does manage to take responsibility, he does learn to let go... but then something happens (often orchestrated by Palpatine) and he goes right back to square one... then square zero... then square minus one, etc.

He never takes that final step to being a more enlightened person.

The Clone Wars challenges the Jedi at times, questions their actions... but ultimately, the responsibility falls on Anakin's shoulders. The series will show you moments where they fail Anakin, but there's as many moments of him failing them.

Could the Jedi have done more? Yes. But if you think them doing more would've solved the problem, you're missing the point of the story of the Prequels.

Functionally, all that is achieved from the Council/Anakin conflict (again, orchestrated by Palpatine), in Episode III, is creating more pressure for Anakin to cave under. That's it.

They're not a meaningful factor in his turn to the Dark Side.

Padmé is.

When he's hesitating between saving Mace or saving Palpatine...

... he's not thinking "one of them was nice to me, but the other one was mean to me and kicked out Ahsoka, so I'll chop his hand off".

And he's not thinking "this isn't by the book, Mace you hypocrite!"

Lucas tells us what's going through his head, in that moment.

It's about Padmé living. And we've already established that what that's really about is "Anakin not wanting to live without her". So, really, it's about Anakin.

Mace and Anakin butting heads isn't even considered. If Mace had been laughing with Anakin and hugging him on the daily, Anakin still would've ended up chopping off his hand. It wasn't about Mace, it was about Anakin.

If Ahsoka had stayed with the Jedi Order, he still would've joined the Dark Side. Because it was never about Ahsoka, it was about Anakin.

If Qui-Gon had lived, Anakin would've still turned. It was never about Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon being the teachers, it was about Anakin.

Because the message of the story is basically that:

"Ultimately, it's up to you to take personal responsibility and be compassionate. If you avoid responsibility and give in to your darker impulses for selfish purposes, bad shit happens. The only meaningful change can come from within."

And in Anakin's case it didn't. He zigged instead of zagging at almost every turn.

Now, you can agree or disagree with that message. But that's what it is. Even some of the current Star Wars authors acknowledge this.

The story of Anakin Skywalker is told in the movies.

The Clone Wars is there as an addendum to:

Shine a spotlight/provide context on minor changes between Episode II and Episode III.

Humanize Anakin, to further drive the point that what happened to him can happen to anyone.

ADDENDUM:

#yes this IS the post I had written last night then lost by *gasp* pressing Ctrl+Z ???? AKA the tumblr nuke button!#george lucas #jedi order #anakin skywalker #QnA #obi-wan kenobi #star wars #long post #meta #collection of quotes #lucas quotes #attachment #pro jedi

370 notes · View notes