for the longest time i just assumed that Spinner did not care/was dismissive about Shigaraki until after the 'destroy everything' speech; and vice versa. We had no reason to think otherwise: Spinner disregarded Shigaraki's kill list; he was skeptical of the Overhaul highway ambush in Chapter 160; and everyone was waiting for a clash because Spinner wouldn't shut up about Stain while Shigaraki held a kid hostage just so he had someone to complain to about how he hated Stain. There was no indication of anything beyond probable mutual annoyance between them. the most likely prediction was not without reason: 'wonder when Shigaraki will dust Spinner'.

chapter 220 was the start of the turning point, and 222 being it. And even 220 start off with Spinner straight up grabbing Shigaraki by the collar and yelling at him for basically not being a good leader. only after that, after the speech, did it seemed like Spinner pay attention. after that, Spinner revised his consideration. He came to empathize with Shigaraki. Shigaraki was proving himself, and Spinner was watching. Shigaraki was called an angry loser and Spinner felt for him. Only then, I thought, did Spinner lower his walls to discuss games. Only then, did they bonded.

And all this was nearly solely on Spinner's side. What did Shigaraki think? No idea. the same regard he held for all other team members. Perhaps mild obligation to respond to Spinner's loyalty, perhaps not.

But Chapter 371 gave us League of Legends, and Chapter 373 gave us the flashback of them chatting, and Chapter 393 showed us Spinner peeking over Shigaraki's shoulder as he played a game, and these were all clearly situated in a time before the events of 220-222. They were already getting along okay. "We bonded over games and stuff" was already happening.

It reframed things: the CRC slaughter, perhaps having affected Spinner more than he let on in the narration. Before, he was fine chilling with Shigaraki, joining the League in conversations about Villain names, being part of the relaxed atmosphere. Morning after CRC, he's withdrawn into himself - arms crossed, staring Shigaraki down, watching the relaxed atmosphere with displeasure, frustration obvious.

Spinner was triggered. He was reminded of why he sought out the League in the first place. And him yelling at Shigaraki can be seen as less dismissal and challenge of an unworthy boss, and more disappointment and hurt of a friend.

If they were already friends - or getting there - by then, then Shigaraki's speech takes on slightly new framing as well. It's not just a boss proving himself; it's a friend trying to repair a strain. It's not him trying to convince a skeptical follower to continue following him, it's him having listened to what Spinner was saying and taking time to reflect on it, address it. It's Shigaraki sharing his own pain, right after Spinner shared his.

It wasn't just, I have no sense of self and I need a leader to follow and Here's a purpose, then, if you want it.

It was: The world emptied me out. It suffocated me. We killed the worst offenders of my suffering but it's not enough. I've been hurt by more than that. I remember now, just how bad it was. i've been hurt my whole life.

And Shigaraki decided, Then let's destroy everything, and that is his kindness, twisted as it is, it is absolutely genuine.

for all that Spinner was enthralled by Shigaraki promise of destruction, captivated by the horizon, it's Shigaraki who brought it up first. Spinner wanted the world to change; so Shigaraki offered destruction. Shigaraki dreamed up the beautiful horizon; and Spinner decided he would shoulder that burden. Shigaraki's dream became Spinner's dream, becoming Shigaraki's promise of their dream.

just a thought, but have you ever considered solomon and mc ACTUALLY getting married, or maybe getting engaged if we were to soften the blow a bit for the rest of the crew??? bc w everything going on in nightbringer, solomon and mc getting closer, “””jokes””” about them being a married couple, and solomon deadass admitting he prefers to keep things as it is now without the brothers getting in his way😭😭😭i wouldn’t be surprised if solomon actually got on his knee and popped a ring, he gotta keep his pookie close🤞

now if solomon and mc were to ever become actually exclusive (instead of an openness within their relationship, unlike how mc has practically kissed each and every brother without making any statement about being official) how do you think that would that go over with the past versions of the cast? heck, to bring up the severity of this, what if solomon and mc finally getting thrown back into the present/future and that’s when everyone finds out about the engagement??

id like to think, depending on which timeline we’re going with, there’d be varied reactions but somewhat the same. i think past versions of the brothers would react….severely, especially when only they’re getting accustomed to being a demon. i mean, in the recent chap 22 (spoilers) mammon is slowly but surely growing into being the avatar of greed that he reacted very harshly when levi saved mc from falling. that alone, triggered mammon to turn into his demon form and threatened to fight everyone who laid a hand on mc💀the brothers couldn’t even handle him at the time. now, i’m a firm believer that a sensitive time such as that would only ensue in some crazy drama😭 it could only culminate in chaos. maybe who knows, the solomon hate train would start a millenial earlier.

but if we were to go with future/present brothers, it wouldn’t be anything drastic, physically at least. bc at least the brothers have fully grown into being demons and can control themselves. but that wouldn’t stop the pettiness that would transpire. they still care about mc, and to see mc obviously care and have this fondness over solomon that they all crave for, they wouldn’t lay a hand on him for mc’s sake. at least you can sleep well with that thought❤️ still, the hate for solomon would skyrocket to the heavens. they go from being distrustful and wary of solomon’s intentions to actually straight up being solomon’s main haters.

hmm hmm…i dunno. this could result in many varying scenarios. and at a time where mc goes missing from the present timeline and the brothers are most likely losing their minds without mc, only for them to come back and deliver the worst news……….low blow, really. but yk what would be the lowest blow? if mc was the one who proposed to solomon instead. anyways, not to sidetrack, but i like to think present lucifer would be in heavy denial for some time LMFAO the first time he’d hear about mc and solomon, luci is probably the type to just completely disregard it and—not act—truly believe that it’s not real, which this perception borders irrationally. with levi and especially mammon, they’re practically two beat up puppies. while levi would sulk and let his misery fester in the close quarters of his room, mammon would not hesitate to make his feelings of betrayal known out loud. the rest of the brothers would act on the same spectrum, utter heartbreak. even beel would sit mc down at times and have long conversations with them about their decision to be seriously romantically involved with a man like solomon.

i think it’d be devastating. they should be happy, but dont forget that they’re the avatars of the seven original sins.

ps: sorry for the long ramble😭 i’ve been thinking about this since replaying some of the chapters of nightbringer…so my characterization of the brothers might be off. and idk much about the side characters. i just don’t want to think about what barbatos would do.

You're good, anon! I will always encourage rambling in my ask box! I love hearing all your thoughts!

So okay, I've thought about marriage with all the characters a little bit, but I don't think I've actually seriously considered what everybody's reactions would be!

I do think Solomon has gotten more possessive and jealous in Nightbringer, but I also think this could be because he's expressing himself a little more freely than he did before. In the OG, I always felt like he was holding himself back because he genuinely believed that MC would never choose him. In Nightbringer, though, I think he's either finding it harder to do that because he lives with them now or he just doesn't want to keep backing off when he clearly loves MC so much. I could definitely see him asking MC to marry him if he thought it was a good time.

I also think the reactions would vary depending on timeline, as you said. And I fully agree with you - if it happened while they were in the past, as things are right now, it'd be absolute chaos. I don't think Solomon is dumb enough to do something like that. He seems pretty determined to get himself and MC back to their own time. And even if he really wants to marry MC, I think he wouldn't propose while they were in the past for the very reasons you list. The demons are not stable and it just isn't worth the risk.

Now, in the present/future timeline, I think things would be far safer for him to actually propose. The demons are more stable, MC isn't really dealing with anything that could change the course of their lives, all that stuff.

If we consider how it would go before MC was unceremoniously chucked into the past, I think that would be the most stable and least dangerous scenario. MC has been living with the brothers for a while, they haven't been exclusive with anyone, and they haven't made any promises to anyone about being exclusive. It's a little weird if we think of it in terms of the generic OM MC because that MC has definitely been involved with everybody at some point. But this would differ depending on different people's versions of MC. But going with the general MC, yeah, I think most of the brothers would be upset about it.

Like if MC is gonna marry someone, it should at least be one of their brothers, right?! I think all the brothers would be okay with it if MC married Lucifer, for instance. They'd be like annoyed it wasn't them, but also just... they get it, you know?

But Solomon? No way. Lucifer himself would lose his mind. Luci's dislike of Solomon might make him try to talk MC out of it. If Solomon asked for Luci's permission, he'd only make it worse. 'Cause Lucifer'd be like no, get out. And I agree, I think he'd be in denial about MC wanting to marry Solomon. I agree with your assessment of Levi and Mammon's reactions, too.

I think they'd all take it pretty hard, but in the end, I also think they'd come around to MC's decision.

Now if MC came back from the past and was all oh yeah I'm engaged to Solomon? Yeah, no that reaction would be INTENSE. I think MC should probably wait a while before telling them that. Let them get over the fact that MC just disappeared on them first.

And honestly, I think if MC proposed to Solomon instead, everything might go a little bit better. Because if Solomon is the one proposing, the brothers will see that as this shady sorcerer stole away our human and that's unacceptable. We can maybe talk MC out of this! We can maybe influence this choice if we complain enough!

But if MC is the one proposing, then they know that it was always MC's choice. They would see it less as Solomon influencing MC and more like MC came to the decision on their own. Just because they love Solomon. And while I think that would be more devastating for them and likely result in a lot of heartbreak, I think they'd be less likely to fight MC on it. Because in the end, they do want MC to be happy.

OH MAN I think past!Barbatos would not be pleased about such an arrangement! He hates Sol's guts right now, so I can't imagine that going well. Future/present Barbatos on the other hand... I think we'd be dealing with another heartbreak situation. He was just beginning to develop feelings for MC. So I think he would be sad, but also happy for them. Because that version of Barbatos loves MC and he cares about Solomon, too. And I think he'd want them to be happy. And I kinda think that's how it would go for the rest of the side characters, too. Diavolo and Simeon both don't strike me as the types that would like try to talk them out of it or cause any anguish for them over it. I think they'd be sad to lose MC, but happy that their friends are in love, you know?

The brothers are just too attached to MC to really go that route without trying to talk them out of it. And also we know they really don't trust Solomon. Present/future Asmo might be the only one who sides with MC, though probably pretty reluctantly and that only because he actually likes Solomon in a way none of the other brothers do.

Wow I feel like there is just so much angst potential with this scenario! But I love the idea of MC marrying Solomon, even it makes things difficult for the brothers lol.

All of ABBA were excellent performers, there's no doubt about that. They could sing, they could dance, they knew how to present themselves for their audiences both on- and offstage. But Frida was, I think, the best specifically at playing to a camera.

why is everyone SO mad about the coverage rolling stone is doing on harry 😐

Echo, baby, this is why we love you

Probably my favorite line in the finale, it's so simple but so powerful coming from him. Honestly kinda amazing that we got such a nice full-circle wrap up to his cross-series arc (especially after he was sidelined all season)

I was sad about not seeing as much of him when he left the Batch in season 2 of course, but I could never be mad because it was a choice that just made so much sense for his character. Seeing him fighting alongside Rex, rescuing Howzer, freeing all the clones in Tantiss, it’s just so clearly where he belongs. He’s been through so much and he’ll never stop fighting for his brothers

Madotsuki plush spin.

Seeing awful takes about Arya is even wilder knowing that people would lose their minds if we said the same things about their fave. Can you imagine if we were genuinely theorizing that Sansa's story ended with her dying, warging into a bird, and becoming a pet for one of her siblings? They would have a fit and call us all kinds of misogynistic, but they'll never explain why their logic is suddenly wrong when it's used for anyone except Arya

I was just thinking and... Guys, I realized,,,

Strahm was actually the last thing that linked Hoffman with his own humanity

Because look, 🙏 when Strahm's still alive when he and Hoffman keep playing that cat and mouse game you can clearly see that he still keeps having doubts about whether he should be doing what he's doing, about whether what he's done so far is good or wrong, is it really any justice or not really - I think what proves this the most is that scene at which he looks at Angelina's picture and afterwards throws his promotion certificate(?) on his desk with evident resignation and something that looks like disgust even

It's only when Strahm ends up dying, when Hoffman looks at his dead body that it seems like something clicks inside him - his expressions when he's looking at it, then when he's picking up his hand, all of his conflicting emotions and thoughts seeming to flicker right in front of his eyes at that moment

As if the moment he saw what he's done to Strahm, as if the moment he basically lost someone that kept insistingly showing him that what he's doing is wrong, that looked at him with disgust for what he was doing, that beat the sh*t out of him for that - see, that's what I'm often talking about also, like I usually do joke about it in a "Hoffman is a wh0re" manner, but actually it very much seems to me that Mark wanted Peter to beat the sh*t out of him, he enjoyed it, because a part of him knew he deserved it for the things he's done so far

But going back to my point - the moment Strahm died, the moment he saw his smashed body was the moment when his humanity has been torn away from him as a person completely, the moment when any good nature and reason left him, because it's Peter's insults, remarks and him not wanting to let him get away with this was what was keeping him grounded to his own doubts about all of this

In a way, I feel like you can even say Strahm's death was also the death of Hoffman's good and rational, as well as careful side

The fact that he had an actual real opponent, that he saw an actual real enemy in Strahm that could make him pay for his actions very much keeping him grounded as well, because with their cat and mouse game he knew he couldn't let his guard down, because he knew Strahm's way too intelligent and it's clear that he very much respected that

The moment Strahm died Hoffman also felt like he could put his guard down, because he felt like he didn't have an actual, real opponent anymore that could stand in his way the way Peter did

The only opponent he ever held any regard for and thought was worth any effort was Strahm.

tired of early 20-somethings acting like harry potter was never good or had no value in its day like shut the fuck up half of you weren't even there when it peaked

My Itty bitty baby born 18/03/24.

Surreal that I'm a parent now

related to my last rb tho i'm gonna be a bit of a hater again, tho, and say it. you are all very lucky that steph was written as good as she was back in the 90s. all the issues (the jealousy, the not as compentent as male characters, the mistakes, the unreasonableness, etc etc) could have, in fact, been way worse. and might've been, actually, under another writer at the time.

I think people who pick one character from AsoIaF/GoT to be The Protagonist are missing the point, because pretty much all of the characters think THEY are The Protagonist™ and that’s ultimately what screws them over.

(I also want to preface this by saying that that’s the reason I find these characters so interesting, and that this is not meant to insult any of them. I LOVE this story, and this is one of the many reasons why.)

Cersei thinks she’s the Villain Protagonist™ of a gritty drama. Even if it doesn’t make sense for things to work out for her, she assumes they will, seeing everyone around her as faceless idiots serving her narrative. Anyone and everyone will betray her because that’s what always happens in stories like this, so she won’t give them a chance to ever get there. People will move the way she assumes they will; everyone is predictable and stupid and shallow and cowardly. And as such, no one possesses the necessary skills to take her down. If she’s more ruthless and ambitious and paranoid than everyone else, she’ll get what she wants. But that’s not how life actually works, so all she does is alienate those around her, even necessary allies. People aren’t always predictable, not all of them are compliant or subservient or easily-frightened or incompetent. And if you prioritize ruthlessness and distrust, the people who aren’t those things aren’t going to see any reason to keep you around or give you aid.

Jaime thinks he’s a Cynical Misunderstood Antihero. He doesn’t need to work on bettering himself or de-internalizing his violent impulses, because he’s not the problem, it’s society, it’s people’s incorrect assessment of him. Look, he made a friend in Brienne, that must mean he’s not all bad, right? He thinks this story ends in a Public Image Rehabilitation, but he still conflates love with violence, and he still has a fucked up relationship with consent, he’s arrogant to a fault, he still insults Brienne (and just about everyone else) when the opportunity presents itself, and he never bothers trying to change that. And it’s all of this that prevents him from every truly becoming a good person. He’s so mired in this idea of being misunderstood that he doesn’t make a concerted effort to prove that he actually is. People think he’s an oath-breaker, that he has too big of an ego, that he doesn’t care about the people he swore to protect, and he thinks that simply going, “Yeah, but they don’t have the whole picture” is enough in and of itself to prove them wrong because, in a lot of stories, it is. But all his behavior does is cement his reputation as these things.

Dany thinks she’s The Chosen One, which means whatever she does is automatically the right decision. People will accept her rule because it’s hers, she deserves it, it’s morally right. All of her enemies are blanketedly wrong on all accounts in all cases. Her goals supersede anyone else’s because those goals are the way to a Happy Ending, and she doesn’t consider that other people might not see it that way. Many people’s gripes with her stem from gross places like misogyny or wanting to continue keeping slaves, but she forgets to acknowledge that some people’s issues with her might actually be valid. And that The Chosen One is actually a terrifying idea to people outside that person’s immediate personal context. She has three sentient WMDs, essentially. And if she thinks that using them is always morally correct, that the fallout from doing so can’t possibly be a problem because she’s using them and it’s for a noble cause, you end up with what happened in Astapor; and you end up with Drogon killing a child in Mereen and, eventually, her demise at the end of the show.

Sansa starts out thinking she’s an Optimistic Child Hero in a fairytale. This leads to her being held captive at court (she trusted that the authority figures were benevolent), writing a letter to her family that almost comes back to bite her to a deadly degree once her sister finds out in the show (she thought she could solve everything herself via a peaceful resolution), and to her trusting a complete monster of a boy until it’s too late (she thought he was Prince Charming). She thinks that being the Soft, Beautiful Heroine means people will love her and everything will end nicely and neatly, but sometimes instead of “love”, people just take advantage of you. And sometimes their reaction to your beauty isn’t innocent appreciation-sometimes you end up with Littlefinger. (Or Tyrion or The Hound who...let’s just leave it at “they have their own issues,” especially book-wise.) This morphs into assuming that a fairytale-esque betrayal will befall her with every new person she meets. It’s why she defends Petyr after his murder of Lysa, and it’s why she doesn’t leave with Brienne; if she’s going to be betrayed anyway, she might as well at least stick with a villain she understands.

Ned thinks he’s the Noble Hero in a typical fantasy series. He doesn’t consider everyone else’s capacity for cruelty or the idea that honor alone might not be enough. Sometimes there are no perfect choices, sometimes mercy does not give you the end goal you envisioned, and sometimes you can try your best and that can all be undone by one impulsive, unforeseeable action. You can’t honor your way out of ruthless political conflict.

Robb thinks he’s a Romantic War Hero, and thus everything will magically work out for him. His ideals and his marriage will conquer everything. But he broke a marriage promise to a powerful family, and that has consequences. The world won’t bend to his will, not even if he is doing the right thing or has noble goals, not even if he’s had war success, not even if the people at home love him, not even if he’s in love (show) or doing the most honorable thing he can (books). He thinks that being the hero means he can make it through Westeros without having to play the game, and he gets murdered for it.

Theon thinks he’s an Underdog Outcast Hero. He’ll come up from behind with an unsuspecting War Victory, and that will earn him respect, the love of his family, and a legacy he can look back on with pride. And that mindset leads him to murder two children, to drive away any allies and good grace he had at Winterfell, and the reason that the War Victory he imagined was so unexpected is because it’s completely untenable. He gets more and more desperate and it’s increasingly harder and harder to hold onto the control he’s managed to obtain. He has reasons for wanting this that make sense, and he’s been dealt a pretty bad hand in life, and he thinks that’s and his determination to overcome his personal identity struggles is enough to not only justify his actions, but ensure that those actions will be successful. And then his plan blows up in his face, he assumes he’s been miraculously saved (probably still having something to do with seeing himself as The Unexpected Hero), and ends up at Ramsay’s mercy.

Arya thinks she’s a Badass Heroine in the making, a skilled swordslady and Rebellious Princess who’s destined for more than this stuffy life of politics and dresses and formalities. But rebelling isn’t always enough. It doesn’t help with the Mycah situation, and she still needs to rely on others’ help in getting out of the city after Ned is executed. When she does try to embrace the “fully self-sufficient sword lady” idea while with the Faceless Men in Braavos, she is told to functionally discard her identity completely. She does an unauthorized kill because she, not her assassin-persona-in-training, wants to (though the victim’s identity differs in books and show), which leads to her being temporarily blinded and prevented from going on assassination missions, and outright forced to beg for food in the show. In the show, after being reinstated as an apprentice, she is tasked with killing an innocent person, refuses (rebels), and realizes that this life is one she can’t handle. She goes home, and her heading straight for her sword is one of the things that almost completely ruins her relationship with Sansa. In the upcoming Winds of Winter release, her chapter excerpt has her prioritizing revenge over her apprentice duties, and she remarks that her new identity is ruined with this rebellious action. When you rebel, there are consequences-this doesn’t change just because your intentions are good or because you are or think you are important.

Jon thinks, similarly to Ned, that he’s The Good Guy, that doing the right thing, that following The Code is paramount. He thinks that, because he’s The Good Guy, that doing the right thing with the maximum amount of good for everyone will always be a workable option, and that the heroic option will always yield the best result. This is why he thinks proclaiming his love to Ygritte in the show will end well (because love is good and conquers everything) and is, instead, shot by her several times. It’s why he doesn’t foresee a mutiny in either medium, which leads to his (temporary) death. (Let’s be real, he’s getting resurrected in the books, too, this is the one thing I’m sure of.) Because yes, everything is tense and he’s on bad terms with the Watch, but surely they wouldn’t go that far. It’s rough going, and he has to juggle the needs of several widely different groups of people, but he’s doing the right thing and that will win out; his conviction will protect him, at least for the time being while he tries to manage the bigger threat of the White Walkers. The real fight is with them, the mysterious overarching enemy, not within his own ranks. This is a story where everyone puts aside their differences to fight a greater threat-except for the times when it isn’t.

Even Catelyn isn’t immune, as she assumes that Petyr, since he’s her childhood friend, is invested in solving the mystery of what happened to Bran when he tells her the dagger used in the attack was Tyrion’s. Lysa is her sister, she can’t possibly be suspicious. She thinks the Lannisters are evil, her instincts tell her that they were behind everything, she’s the Protective Mother Heroine, so she must be right. But although she is to a certain extent correct, that’s not the complete picture. And this slightly-misplaced confidence leads her to arrest Tyrion, the retaliation of which is Tywin siccing his forces on her homeland, one of the major first steps in the upcoming political war. Then, her continued focus on saving her children-something that must take precedence because they are her children, and this is her story-leads her to taking Walder Frey’s supposed offer of a fix-it solution for Robb breaking his marital pledge at face value, despite House Frey’s reputation, and despite this neat resolution seeming far too good to be true. She’s so focused on the Lannisters-the Obvious Endgame Enemy-that she doesn’t consider the possibility of betrayal from the Freys. She thinks that the world is giving her a break-because she is so desperately looking for one, because she deserves one, because her family deserves one, and those are reasons enough for her to have one-that she doesn’t even bother to re-evaluate the situation until it’s too late.

Melisandre thinks she’s a Religious Hero, but she ends up burning a child alive and alienating one of her few remaining allies in the process (and Davos was barely an ally to begin with). She thinks she’s Doing What Needs To Be Done to serve her savior, but it hurts Stannis more than it helps him, and he just ends up being murdered by Brienne. This is obviously in the show only (at least at this point), and I don’t know if Stannis is going to burn Shireen in the books or not. Stannis thinks he’s the Lawful Hero, and thus, because according to law he’s the Rightful Ruler, anything he does is automatically excusable; he’s just righting a wrong. And in the process, he imprisons his closest friend, has a hand in murdering his brother (when kinslaying is one of the most universally hated breaches of conduct in this fictional universe), allies with a dangerous woman that much of his own court despises, and, in the show, murders his only child and drives away most of the rest of his remaining team.

They all think that, since they are the main characters of their own stories, that they’re the main character of the larger, overarching narrative. That having understandable reasons or sympathetic qualities or even just having a clear goal that they desperately want, that’s enough to cement their importance. And they think that means that they’re justified in everything they do, that everything will work out for them, that the consequences will be lesser for them than for others, because that’s what it’s like to be the main character. The whole point is that there is not A Protagonist™ and that maybe we should examine why a story needs A Protagonist™ in the first place and what that narrative tradition tells us. When GRRM said he turned down adaptation offers because they only wanted to focus on Jon and Dany, this is why.

Another great CR Cooldown is the cast's initial reaction to "Did she know" was "this is Liliana about Imogen, obviously" and like. Guys you gotta listen to Travis and don't go on Twitter.

I think the "Jake is secretely a manipulative genius" characterisation came from hating the "Jake is dumb as a rock" characterisation so much it was completely taken to the other direction. Horseshoe Jake characterisation.

borrowing dante's phrasing here but homestuck fanon is often almost entirely reactionary and barely rooted in the contents of the comic

Swifties am I paranoid or does anyone else feel like cancellation from the general public might be just around the corner

it's weird how jhope is Right There and he's like the Most Talented Person but some armys just. don't see him. should be studied