I need people to stop glorifying the 4B movement in Korea, from a Western (white) perspective. Stop it. If you are blissfully unaware of this (having not been on TikTok) - in theory, it makes sense. No sex with men, no dating men, no child rearing with men, and no marriage with men. But. BUT. Feminists in Korea are problematic AF. I know this from both personal experience (having been on the receiving end of their ire online) and everything I've read about them, in Korean. I see all these white TikTokers (and even some in the Korean diaspora) fawning over how "we" in the US need this and, no. If your feminism is transphobic, hates gay men, hates men in general, that's not the feminism I'd endorse. Why is Korean feminism transphobic? In 2020, Korean feminists ACTIVELY CAMPAIGNED AGAINST a woman who was accepted to Sookmyung University. An all womens' university. But she was a woman, you say. What could be their problem? According to Korean feminists, they didn't want a "man" in their space. Because she is a trans woman. This is not unusual for Korean feminists. Having lived there for 5 years, to some extent, I understand their anger against misogyny. But if you are truly against the toxic patriarchy that exists in Korea, you must also help dismantle military conscription because that is where a lot of men become radicalized, bullied, etc etc and "grow up" to be the most toxic form of men seen on this earth. But Korean feminists don't give AF about that and in fact, I've read a lot of them express that it's good for men to suffer. Guess what? That view is internalized misogyny and toxic patriarchy, too. And I don't want to hear it about the movement being so "young". Korean women have stepped up to the plate before in our history. We are capable of better than this fucking nonsense. It's a bunch of transphobic, gay hating radicals that have hijacked what was supposed to be about social justice. WOMAD (link is to the Wikipedia article, not their site) and Megalia are the two sites they stem from. It is the most toxic group of people I've ever had the displeasure to encounter online. Any form of criticism is, at best, ignored and worst - I've been "called out" for being Korean-American, and therefore, to "butt out" of "Korean issues". Amongst other bullying I've personally received. And yes, not just on forums but on public articles that I've commented on.

I know it's a catchy title and it appeals in theory but please, please do not glorify these transphobes and TERFs. They don't deserve your attention.

Something happened in my English class that I think perfectly sums up how so many people don't understand feminism.

At the beginning of each class, we have to talk about something in english for two minutes. This woman decided to talk about radical feminism in South Korea. She explained how feminists there decide not to date men, have sex with men, marry men and have kids with men anymore. It was very interesting and well explained, and I was happy to see another woman from my uni talking about feminism. From what I understood, she's not Korean but goes to Korea often and has a lot of radical feminists friends there.

Then another woman raises her hand and asks "don't you think these rules are a little bit tough?". I roll my eyes, but the other woman is confused. She frowns. "What rules? What are you talking about?". "I mean, the not dating men rule. Isn’t it a bit too tough?". "Well of course it's tough for the men but that's the goal isn’t? Feminism has to be a bit tough to men in order to work". She really didn't seem to understand what that other woman meant, and the other was apparently confused about it. "I mean for the women... for the Korean women. Aren't these rules too tough for Korean feminists? Isn’t there a way to help women without giving them such hard rules to follow?".

I was very annoyed (so was the woman who talked about this movement in the first place) because how can you miss the point so badly? How does she think feminism works? Does she believe some sort of higher power gives Korean women rules to follow and that they get thrown in jail if they date a man? How can you describe this movement as "rules"? They aren't rules. They would be rules if Korean women were forced to obey them, if they were punished for dating men. That's not the case. What's happening is that some women decide of their own free will to stop dating men (among other things). They don't follow any rules, they freely chose to do what they do. It's about women's freedom, about women deciding what they do with their life and body. But I guess people nowadays use this concept only to defend prostitution and makeup, without understanding it in reality, when it comes to women doing things that go against what the patriarchy wants them to do.

Anyway, I find it interesting that this woman's first conclusion was that these were rules rather than free choices. This is why many people see radical feminism as a cult; they can't understand the idea of women making their own choices if those choices defy patriarchy. They think we must be some kind of cult that brainwashes them and forces them to obey and follow complicated rules, because how else can a woman decide to stop fucking men? A free woman would never do that.

it's not accurate to act like the feminist movement in rok is free of terfs/only has incidental issues with transmisogyny. there's rampant transmisogyny in rok feminism. there's not a lot of english-language scholarship about it, but look up the kind of rhetoric and policy that was on sites like megalia/WOMAD, or the trans woman who was accepted to a women's university but got harrassed into withdrawing by terfs/conservatives in 2020. i'm sure you mean well but your post is irresponsibly misleading about the content and ideology of current-day korean feminism

I never said RoK doesn't have TERFs or a widespread radfem problem.

We in the USA have them and depending on where you are a transwoman might get the same treatment. There have been 538 pieces of anti-trans legislation presented in the USA this year alone. Florida specifically is turning into a straight up anti-trans fascist state.

TERF/radfem ideology is gaining ground in the USA and theyve actually been the people pushing a lot of these bills through with supporters like the heritage foundation. For example:

Several other states are starting to follow suit now that they see whats possible. US progress is deeply turning backwards. This is largely being allowed to happen by a public who isn't fighting back. The only people really talking about any of this is in fact trans people or the people close to them.

That said, radfems and such shouldn't be made out to be the face of feminism.

They're not and I would never say they are because there are Actual feminists fighting against them and trying to stop them from co-opting feminism.

Radfeminism is gaining ground, sure, but I'd still never say that it's representative of US feminism or even feminism really.

Feminism is about gender equality. TERFs/Radfeminism is about gender separatism, defining women by their sexual ability, and catering to patriarchal views of gender as a "rebellion" against actual feminism. Ask a radefem what defines them and they'll say their uterus.

Does your ability to create babies for the patriarchy define you as a woman? Of course not.. especially when feminists have been seeking to destroy that idea.

How can you be feminist and fundamentally disagree with it's premise?

It's more like anti-feminsim than anything else. Especially when we consider that feminists have fought generations to be defined by more than their sex, that the genders are equal and have equal abilities, that women have a Right to be in spaces considered for men, and try so hard to fight against the way that patriarchy defines women as maids, wives, and breeders who should be pretty and thin.

Anyone who steps outside that definition should be celebrated as a success story. Proof that the gender binary is bigger and more complicated than believed. Proof that women and womenhood are too expansive and too complex to be limited by such a small minded definition.

That to say.... Just because it's a massive problem...doesn't mean that radfems are the face of feminism. And saying that doesn't mean I'm ignoring their existence either.

I just wouldn't ever ever validate them successfully co-opting feminism. And I wouldn't Let them have it either by saying "well I guess there's so many radfems in this movement that I guess it's their's now" either.

All this to say, I'm aware. It was actually kinda difficult to find resources on the 4b movement that weren't transphobic.

The point is fighting patriarchy tho right? That means fighting transphobia. And since there ARE Korean women and other people doing that and talking about it, I'm going to focus on progress. Not whatever the fuck radfems are doing.

And I'm going to trust that as feminism makes more strides in gender equality that the groups of radfems will shrink. And that are more people will see radfems/TERFs less and less like feminists and more and more like the Patriarchy Preservers they are.

I've seen a lot of (usually white) feminists talk about how western/European women should also replicate/do '4B' as well just as Korean women have -without recognizing or understanding the context with which 4B arose.

The current very right-wing South Korean President, Yoon Suk Yeol, is very much responsible for continuing to put the health, well-being, as well as safety of Korean women at risk. Whether it be through him vehemently stating gender discrimination no longer exists to attempting to abolish the ONLY organizing that focuses on supporting women -the Ministry of Gender Equality and Family.

He has also only added a handful of women into his cabinet AFTER he was criticized for not having done so in the first place. When he was elected back in 2022, my solidarity has and will always remain with women and folks who experience marginalization in South Korea, such as those in the LGBTQIA+ and disability community, among many. I will, nor should NO ONE ever forget how this man campaigned/how he was elected in mass by misogynistic men.

President Yoon Suk Yeol also remarked about creating incentives for MEN by lowering their mandatory military service if they have more children with their wives... needless to say, 4B is specific to the lived experiences and realities of living under patriarchy in South Korea in many elements of her daily life. I stumbled on this video on my fyp, and this Creator gives SO much great context to 4B, and for those who can watch/listen I highly recommend this video as a start to understanding Korean feminism.

sorry i just saw this on twt and i have to say the death of the womens movement is truly upon us oh my god.

its insane that people are still using this bs Western! Wokeness! Sensationalism! rhetoric to dismiss genuine social movement and also dismissing it simply because it doesnt align with you and your friends - who all seem to hold very conservative values if they believe in things like aging out of the marriage market.

(you and your friends cant even pass the bechdel test! wake up!)

and the whole thing about matchmaker businesses is just actually insane to me because thats so fucking dystopian. your INCOME. ASSETS. EDUCATION LEVEL. FAMILY. THE DEBT YOU HAVE ??? being used to dictate your marital partner. its clear that still to this day women are seen as a fucking business transaction and marriage is financial.

im losing my mind at this....

finally, the whole thing about radical extreme misandrists ?? what ??? if you genuinely believe misandry is a thing in real life grow up!!!! enough with dismissing a movement about women's liberation and social equality as 'extreme' is incredibly harmful and it is these people who are killing the womens movement.

this is genius, periodt

thoughts from a Korean user on Reddit in the comments of her post recapping the maplestory, studio ppuri and genshin impact incidents. right now I’m reading through a woman’s 160 page ethnographic dissertation on megalia and I plan to post some relevant information here when I’m finished but I thought this a was an interesting first hand account that hits on a lot of main points for westerners to read, especially from someone who does not have english as a first language. I think it’s important to read and share first hand accounts like this so when I happen to see them I try to post here. I’m grateful to anyone who spends time and effort explaining in english the history of movements that typically get completely written off by westerners (trust me this happens a lot especially on Reddit) and how they themselves view these movements. not that you personally have to completely agree with everything here of course but (and this should be a given for anything you read imo) it’s definitely worth a read.

(I just realised how long this is after typing it out. my bad, i have a habit of yapping too much 😭. Feel free to ignore this if you want. I love your posts btw i learn a lot thanks to you)

radfems seem to be more successful in korea compared to other regions. they are good at organising and have done public protests where they absolutely don’t hold back, Here’s some footage from a korean feminist protest: https://youtu.be/O4vWycy0sDI?si=2KmBUQ7Jpp9prt_q

The way they don’t care about what people think and just start all out screaming at men is refreshing. They have many radfem forums and groups and the discussions in these websites is so much more practical than what I’ve seen here.

They are very focused on self improvement and achieving economic, political and social success compared to radblr which is more communist and promotes living in a little wooden cabin in the woods with some other women to be more eco friendly. Nothing against communism i just think while we’re already living in a capitalist society promoting communism in female spaces will just lead to women becoming poorer and oppressed further by rich men. And nothing wrong with being eco friendly either but I don’t think women living in a hut will do anything when men still at large continue to destroy the world. 

the main website korean women use to organise is called womad. It’s so much better than any feminist forum I’ve ever seen. It’s anonymous and usernames are automatically generated and change every hour or so so that no one can be recognized anywhere. The police have been trying to crackdown on them because of extreme misandry for a long time but all attempts have failed. 

From reading their posts it seems almost all of them have a good understanding of politics and economics. Their discussions are productive and they don’t have any infighting like radblr and they don’t let any other social issue distract them from the real enemy which is men. What do you think could be the reason behind this? Are korean women just intellectually superior? I personally feel like korean women have the highest iq of all women. I look up to them a lot and womad has taught me a lot.

They even have a women’s party in korea and they won around 200,000 votes which isn’t a lot but it’s still a huge achievement. Check out womensparty.kr 

I wish indian women would catch up. I’m sick of indian moids taking up every inch of space in this country. Every street in india is filled with moids, it’s so dystopian there are no women in sight. One would think only men live here. This is also the reason there’s so much fucking trash in the streets. These overgrown manchildren who have their mommys clean up after them go out and throw trash wherever they see fit and do not bother cleaning because that’s a woman’s job. Women can’t go out to exercise because every public space is occupied by men. I’m so so sick of them. 

Power to the korean women! I'm glad you're finding guidance and inspiration in the feminism they lead and that they're so successful, I admire it as well!

I'm standing by indian women and hope they manage to gain freedom! And until they do, we need to prop them up and also be on their side. Only males are our enemies :)

(paywall removed here)

"Soon, Youngmi shaved her head, too, and stopped wearing makeup, joining the so-called “escape the corset” movement happening among young women in South Korea. The movement, which first gained popularity in 2018, saw Korean women publicly turn away from societally imposed beauty standards by cutting their hair short and going barefaced. (Youngmi was not alone — in 2019, a survey found that 24 percent of women in their 20s reported cutting back their spending on beauty products in the previous year, with many saying they no longer felt they needed to put in the effort.)

This eventually led Youngmi to “4B,” a smaller but growing movement among Korean women. 4B is shorthand for four Korean words that all start with bi-, or “no”: The first no, bihon, is the refusal of heterosexual marriage. Bichulsan is the refusal of childbirth, biyeonae is saying no to dating, and bisekseu is the rejection of heterosexual sexual relationships. It is both an ideological stance and a lifestyle, and many women I spoke to extend their boycott to nearly all the men in their lives, including distancing themselves from male friends. . . .

For Youngmi and many others who subscribe to its basic premises, 4B, or “practicing bihon,” is the only path by which a Korean woman today can live autonomously. In their view, Korean men are essentially beyond redemption, and Korean culture, on the whole, is hopelessly patriarchal — often downright misogynistic. A 2016 survey by the Ministry of Gender Equality and Family found the incidence of intimate-partner violence at 41.5 percent, significantly higher than the global average of 30 percent. While 4B’s adherents may hope to change society — through demonstrations and online activism, and by modeling an alternative lifestyle to other women — they are not trying to change the men whom they view as their oppressors. It is too soon to tell whether this movement can survive and thrive over the long haul. But its ideas and actions have already affected the country’s online discourse, its politics, and most of all, individual women’s lives."

A means for survival in an untenable situation.

Hoping to God these women stay safe as they reject men in all aspects of their lives

Korea's 4B Movement: Real Radical Women

Today is the 10 year anniversary of the Sewolho Tragedy (세월호). 10 years since the day I have so many thoughts still, and the grief and anger that bubbles up but... there is one thing that I cannot forget and that still causes me incredible amounts of anger.

In the aftermath, it became clear that there were multiple fuckups on multiple levels by the government in the rescue operations as well as the accident happening itself.

Grieving parents began hunger strikes.

And somehow... somehow the grief over their dead children became a political issue, not a humanitarian one.

A group of conservatives called the ilbe, took it upon themselves to demonstrate some of the worst hatefulness I've seen from people. TW below for hate against grieving parents.

During the hunger strikes, they ate in front of the parents.

If that wasn't bad enough, they specifically ate fish cakes.

Why fish cakes?

The ilbe "joked" that fish ate the dead schoolchildren and that now they were a part of these fish cakes.

And it never stopped.

Ilbe members continue to harass parents who (rightfully) continue their activism to this day.

Most people outside of Korea don't know or remember this. What they remember is only the beauty of Korean people, protesting in the millions and successfully impeaching President Park Geun Hye who was missing for 7 crucial hours after the accident. ("Fun" fact? A lot of 4B movement activists regard her as their role model. Yes. Still. In 2019, feminist group WOMAD even took out an ad in Times Square to demand her release from prison.)

The fish cake incident was why I wasn't shocked when I saw various videos online of Zionists doing or saying similarly hateful things about Falasteen and Palestinians.

To take a humanitarian issue and twist it into a political one.

I have a lot of feels when people praise the efficiency and technological "forwardness" of Korea when I think of the Sewolho. Because it wasn't the first or last tragedy created by corruption and greed - it is one of MANY manmade disasters (Seongsu bridge collapse, Sampoong Mall collapse, Daegu subway fire, Itaewon Halloween crush, etc etc).

Korea is always one misstep away from yet another infrastructure disaster.

It is a complex country, like any other. There's no conclusion to this post because I struggle with complicated feelings regarding my home country and my own family but I wish people acknowledged the nuances more than look at it with rose colored glasses.

Being fat in Korea be like:

Me: Excuse me, I ordered a Pepsi. This is Diet Pepsi.

Skinny AF Waitress: Yes, this is Pepsi. Not Diet. Just Pepsi.

Me: I literally just watched you pour this from the Diet Pepsi dispenser. 

Skinny AF Waitress, smiling widely like there’s a joke here I don’t get: No, this is normal Pepsi.

Me: Y’all got a manager here?

Skinny AF Waitress: Sorry, no. *Lays down bill and leaves*

Just finished reading this and highly recommend it !!!

BNO News on Twitter: "South Korea's fertility rate, already the lowest in the world, dropped by another 8 percent in 2023.

New data shows the fertility rate dropped to 0.72, far below the 2.1 needed to maintain the population."

I made a post a while ago about the 4B movement in South Korea and how and why it pertains to the liberation and freedoms of Korean women. The tiktok video I shared a while ago gives background and context to Korean Feminism and current struggles that Korean women still face in their country. If you have the time to look at this as well, I highly recommend watching this video:

I am always in solidarity with Korean women, and I truly hope for real, systemic changes soon. Korean women deserve to always feel safe and protected -to always have the same access to opportunities and more.

we seriously need a bigger movement of women refusing to date and have sex with men right now ; feminism won't get anywhere as long as women do not take this kind of radical actions. i know it's a complicated topic since even "radical" feminists on here think it's too much and won't do it (while it's the basis of radical feminism) but i believe it's essential for women's liberation.

making sure men have access to women's bodies is the patriarchy's priority. in its head, that's what women are made for. that's why we are born. we exist to sleep with men - or should i say, to let men fuck us -, to marry them - become their servant and private prostitute - , to give them kids. it's one of the roots of the patriarchy. if we want to destroy the patriarchy, we have to destroy the roots. we have to destroy this root.

in history, feminism got somewhere everytime women took big actions against the patriarchy. posts are good, little actions help, but we need to make real noise. de frapper un grand coup. this way, we will be safer, and the patriarchy will be severly wounded.