#i mean i knew there are misha fans who only knew of him through the cook book or gish
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😭😭
#i mean i knew there are misha fans who only knew of him through the cook book or gish#and also Roadfood(yes there are fans who only saw him on RF#but its so weird seeing people who are only aware of him through Gotham Knights#he did play the hell outta Harvey Dent#and its becoming widely available in more countries for streaming#so it shouldn't surprise me there are ppl who will watch GK that have never seen spn#its still.... idk#makes me wonder what roles he'll take on next#misha collins#harvey dent/two-face#GK#castiel#supernatural
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I have some thoughts about Cas after seeing Misha’s comment on why Cas wasn’t in TW so let me put these bullet points here:
* Many Cas fans latched onto “Cas helped” like it was the only rope thrown to us in a sea of Cas erasure because that’s what it was. If I’d had to believe for the past four years that Cas was trapped in The Empty I would have gone out of my mind and I was already out of my mind due to the various fails of the series finale. Not judging since I get the appeal of a rescue arc but did people really want Cas helpless in The Empty, limp, asleep, trapped in his own regrets for the past four years of realtime (also that’s not canonically how Cas went to The Empty, I’ll get to that). It sounds miserable
* Nobody said “Cas helped” was adequate, ftr. We said it was an info dump and it was the last ditch attempt to give us something after the covid regs/CW Network butchered the finale story and Misha’s part was cut. An info dump isn’t the best way to tell a story but is sometimes a necessity in TV storytelling because of external circumstances
* Cas had earned better from the story and pretty much all the Cas lane all knew it. I was bitter about it. But also it’s what was available as a clue to Cas’s fate. We had Bobby’s line and Dean’s smile as a lantern in the darkness
* If Cas was intended to still be in The Empty why in the og version was he at the bar with Dean if the intent was for him to be trapped in The Empty
* No shade at Misha. Just thinking it through. CMP doesn’t retcon. CMP fills in the blanks and recontextualizes
* one of the great things about 15.18 was Cas’s self actualization story and that when The Empty took him he was fulfilled. Not empty. Cas saved himself—The Empty would have no power over him beyond trying to whisk him away. That is canon. Cas’s self actualization also means something to many Cas fans. The inadequacies of 15.20 don’t make the messaging and implications of 15.18 (and the story leading up to it) less worthwhile and people are still allowed to find Cas’s story meaningful. Even if we’re relieved and happy a follow up is seemingly on the way finally
* The rescue is a great story idea, Misha was maybe just speculating at CCS, or wanted to make fans happy, but I’m not dismissing that perhaps it’s a hint about some revival plans and I feel all tingly
* It doesn’t have to be incompatible with Cas saves himself. Perhaps Cas redesigns Heaven from The Empty
* Reminder that Cas is a cosmically fearsome really stubborn self-realized BAMF who was taken fulfilled and can cancel out possibly even destroy or absorb and transform The Empty’s…energy. Reminder Cas and Rowena were paralleled characters, Rowena wound up as ruler of Hell, while Cas ———-abandoned to a question mark but gee what could it be *looks at Rowena*
* Let me float this scenario. Dean goes to save Cas…and finds Cas sitting on The Empty’s throne, having taken over and reformed the place. Dean’s just staring poleaxed with happiness to find Cas and because he expected Cas to be asleep. Cas, calmly, “Hello, Dean”
*I know some people have speculated about this already. And with whatever insight and power he gained maybe he could have redone Heaven remotely. Maybe Cas at the bar is after the “rescue” — maybe he needs Dean’s help to exit The Empty even if Cas overpowered it. Who wants to clown with me about Cas King of The Empty *honk honk*
* There’s also the question of missing time and pov for Dean between the moment of his death and his arrival in Heaven and what if Cas guided Dean’s soul—lost and confused—somehow but sticking a pin in that for now
Anyway it seems very very likely we are getting a follow up to 15.18 and Cas’s story that finally gives him his full due.
*HONK HONK*
And hearthands for Misha and Jensen both watching over Cas the way they did. Misha realized a cameo wasn’t adequate, Jensen agreed, wholeheartedly, Cas deserved a full follow up not just a cameo with no explanations or deeper story, we knew this already actually but it’s good having Misha on video summarizing it. (It’s possibly due to Harvey Dent that Misha only had time to do a cameo, btw. Not because no one thought Cas should have more screentime).
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Okay, today is the kind of day where I really can't just scroll past something like this nonsense without comment [X]. To paraphrase: D/C fans totes loved Jared and really wanted to support Walker but just couldn't because the finale was such a betrayal :( :( :(. We're not hateful for the sake of being bitter, it's just so sad we had to turn on Jared because [implied batshit crazy]! FFS.
First, as if we don't remember how many fucking times hellers attacked Jared over utter bullshit long before the finale. Not only have they always been hateful little shits, they've always lied through their teeth about it. Some post from three years ago doing the same old same old, "Oh we're totally the GOOD side of fandom who never hate anybody, lookit our halos!" song and dance doesn't mean jack shit.
Second, what the fuck do they think being bitter means? "The tv show I was watching refused to cater to me personally by throwing away the core premise and genre of the show, which is totally unfaiiiiir - despite common sense and me being told repeatedly they wouldn't ever do so. Therefore I'm going to quote unquote punish the network and the stars by not watching any of their other shows! So there!" Like ... what? It's absurdly bitter - not to mention childish. Which doesn't even get into the giant black hole of logic that is blaming the actors for the writing which was done by the, y'know, writers.
But let's pretend for a moment it's not inherently bitter (as well as fucking ridiculous) to be butthurt a tv show didn't end in bad OOC fanfic out of nowhere and to blame the actors for it. They still prove it's nothing more than sour grapes bitter shipwar bullshit by ONLY singling out Jared and Walker. If they were really actually trying to avoid supporting the CW and ALL those involved in the finale rightfully disappointing their delusional asses? Misha conspired a year in advance to queerbait them with Castiel's death scene, pitched only as one-sided and with him knowing Castiel wouldn't be in the final two episodes. Jensen knew the ending was centering on the brothers as early as Jared did when they talked with the writers and played just at least as much of a part in adding little touches to make the finale as brother-centric as it was, including removing dialogue mentions of Castiel. Jensen also nodded along with Jared's Denvercon answer about how Castiel's death speech wasn't inherently romantic and added his own concurring opinion. And yet somehow, just by pure coincidence, really, I'm sure! It's only Walker and Jared they decided to boycott - while most of them wandered around proclaiming how happy they were to tune in to TW and GK on the supposedly oh-so-evil CW. But they totes love Jared, really! 🙄 They just can't help personally blaming just him for the finale because if there is a reboot he isn't half their shitty ship there was, like, totally an Easter egg mentioning going to Texas or whatever! Yeah! The finale is totally Walker propaganda!!! So they just couldn't watch only that CW show, though they really really wanted to! 😢
This transparent bullshit was at least funnier when it had hypnotiddies in it.
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Regarding the hate being thrown at JiB staff right now for not allowing that fanart to be signed: I want to put something into perspective.
Now for those of you who don't know. There was a fan who wanted their destiel art signed. JiB staff said that it wasn't allowed. The fan took the art to her Misha OP and had Misha hold it into the camera while she flipped the staff member in the room off. She then proceeded to post this on facebook. Now JiB staff is being attacke, accused of being homophobic, the whole nine yards. People said they would come to JiB and punch the staff. It went so far that, among other staff, Massimo had to say he is not sure whether he will work at JiB again as he is not feeling safe. Neither is his boyfriend, who works at JiB as well.
Let me tell you about my encounter with Massimo.
I too wanted something signed that wasn't allowed. I knew that it wasn't allowed to get photos signed, but for some reason I thought that had to do with copy rights and therefore my Photo OP with Rob from PurCon 2019 wouldn't fall under this rule. So I stood in line, only that photo with me, to get it signed. When I reached the front of the line, the lady who checks the things you get signed, looked at the picture and said that wasn't allowed. I asked why. (Not to throw a tantrum, I just genuinely didn't understand and I asked in a completely calm manner.) She said only OP's taken at JiB would be allowed. I was really sad in that moment, as I didn't have an alternative. Massimo, who was standing close by, came over, looked at the photo, and confirmed I couldn't get it signed. Mind you, both the lady and Massimo were kind and friendly. They must have seen how dissapointed I was, and heard it in my voice when I said I didn't bring anything else. Massimo suggested I get a different Rob Photo, there were some to buy. He took the time to talk to me. I said I would try to think of something. And without me bringing it up, he said: "When you have something, you can come right to the front of the line. You don't have to queue again. Tell them Massimo allowed it. I'm Massimo."
Up until this moment I had no idea I was talking to Massimo. You have to understand he is kind of JiB famous. Everyone seems to love him. Now I know why. He is a really nice guy.
I said: "Oh, you're Massimo. I've heard about you!"
He laughed shyly: "I hope only good things."
Which I confirmed. We were both laughing. I went and got something else I wanted signed. When I came back down, Massimo was nowhere to be seen. But I told the two staff members I passed what he had said. They let me through with smiles. I had my Rob auto, had a nice funny moment with Rob and a memorable moment despite not getting signed what I originally wanted.
It is one thing to question whether a rule regarding what you can get signed makes sense/is just. (But even here, I have to say you don't know what let to this desicion. You don't have all the informaition.)
But it is another thing to be nasty to the people who are there to make sure the rules are followed. It is by no means their fault. And they certainly weren't unfriendly or anything. On the contrary. They went out of their way to make sure I still had a great experience.
And I can assure you, no one of the JiB staff is homophobic. Massimo, who is actually gay, least of all.
At the end of JiB it is kind of tradition that the actors come out of the green room to walk through an isle of people. This year, when the actors where done, people called for Massimo. He was all shy about it, but he came out to the fans. Thats how well known and liked he is. You don't get asked to come out by people and celebrated if you are a homophobic a**.
And again, before someone reads this as me blaming Daniella, the organisator of JiB, for putting rules up: I am not!!! I don't know the process that led to the decisions regarding JiB rules. But I do know that as a leader you have to make the tough decisions that people might not understand because they don't have all the facts. I know because I have been in this position. So I assume that rules are based on experience and made with the best interest of everybody in mind.
To conclude: The whole JiB staff, from Daniella to the security guards, was nothing but friendly. I had so many pleasant encounters. They always had a smile ready for everyone.
They really don't deserve this hate!
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Ppssst. Just fyi.
If pat ever knew anything. About anything.
He would have known the pilot was real by the timestamp, not crawling to someone that made a fool of him
Feel free to Google tv production annual cycle. They break right then with last drafts then debate to order once coming back in january, to order by early feb at latest. Then, those network drafts go to the fucking winds for casting and all kinds of reasons.
See, if this man had any clue what he was looking at ever beyond his own wants or denials, he could have gone. Hm, early feb leak. Hm, it says dec on it. Oh. It says 4th network draft so it was the final before break and went out with the order, wow!
What did this motherfucker ACTUALLY do? Actively showed his lack of reading comprehension with an ill perceived error and scroll through it like any other uneducated piece of shit pretending they have the capacity to even gauge a good script trying to nitpick because this dumb fuck thinks he's still in fan wars when he can't even read the fucking bold lines at the top of the page or understand them
I just really and truly want to illustrate this while I know for once he is actually directed his followers to read my wall instead of close their eyes and ears to it. Honestly. I would say you guys are better than being stupid enough to fall for him, but the you I am addressing are generally wincest shippers so we're not going to go that far but. I would hope you have some sense of self-awareness or shame or dignity that you want to protect that you can begin seeing through this.
But that will require addressing your biases. Like whichever one made it seem like it might make sense that they would talk to a guy who is only in a few episodes before the third star of a show. And you couldn't figure out that the bigger guy already knew also. If you can't see how ridiculous this is, I promise you everyone else can see it. And you should probably leave until you understand
If you can't discern an actor being given a VERY general gist of methods to hook him in while checking availability of all returns from some sort of IMPORTANT INFO, go the fuck home omg. Unless your breaking news is "DHJ considered for prequel!", that doesn't mean shit. How is he so genuinely awful at this. Genuinely. Fucking terrible. This man seems incapable of actual complex thought bc he thinks you can play connect the dots in any order and get the right picture somehow and newsflash, no.
Some of his shit legit reads like "well the sky is blue today but was grey yesterday so my secret sources say there is a unicorn changing the weather because dhj saw a horse" or some shit because the greater part of material he assembles doesn't actually fucking say anything. It's all a blender of his own failure to compute shit. All of it. Ground up. He doesn't get what is or isn't important to even look. So he tries real hard to make it all seem important as long as he feels he can manipulate it unchallenged
Probably why he went for dhj for supposed news. Less eyes and less film to criticise the way pat butchers things. Theres 100 fans to call shit on j2m panels at any point.
Seriously tho it's so bad logically pat did you genuinely fucking believe in your heart of hearts DHJ was invited back and explained more about this than misha, or is this master level trolling? Surely you're not THAT stupid.
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I’ve seen a lot of people saying that we just wanted Misha to be queer as some kind of way to write off people’s genuine hurt. And as someone who’s been in fandom since the beginning– of course we wanted them to be queer? Of course we did. Fans want to share things with people they’re fans of, and that’s perfectly normal, but it was also in part self-protection to want that, because if they’re not, then their jokes and their feelings were just cruel and painful. It doesn’t mean we were wrong, but no one is or was objective. The homophobes who hated the idea of Dean being bi weren’t any more objective than we were. We all came into everything with our own biases and our own wants and needs for validation and community and support, whether we were on the homophobic side or the gay side or somewhere in the middle. And that’s entirely normal and expected, that’s just what being human is. We all can only see things through our own eyes.
How queerness and fanfic and shipping is treated by the actors now is almost entirely irrelevant to anyone’s feelings about this, because the fandom didn’t just come into existence two years ago. It’s been built over the past sixteen years. Things that happened a decade ago shaped the fandom then and molded it into what it is and all its baggage and what people feel and think. When you have an actor calling people sick and pervs for writing slash, then fans of that person are going to want to see that in a way that makes it feel okay. And when the actor says well he’s a perv too, then you take that as the lifeline it is, and say “well, he’s one of us, surely” you see it less as being laughed at than being laughed with. You see not just an ally but someone who’s family, and that’s what you want him to be, of course it is, and that’s what feels right, and that’s the only way you know in your heart that you’d feel entirely okay with him joking like that and talking like that.
Moreover this is true of when he’d talk and joke about Destiel in the show and Dean and Cas’s feelings for each other. We knew it would be fine if he was one of us, if he was with us, but if it was just a punchline, it’s like you’re a punchline, your queerness, your identity, this thing that’s so important to you. So that was even more reason to want to think of him as one of us, because we didn’t want to just be a punchline, we wanted him to be with us. Then he got so hurt by people saying he was queerbaiting. He got defensive of himself, he got emotional, almost crying over it, and we saw that as yet another reason to think he was one of us, and we didn’t want to just see him as a defensive straight man with a soft ego. He never, until this year, said he was straight, through all the years of people getting pissed at him for saying something wrong about destiel or queerness or representation or making a bad joke, he never once said he was straight, and many of us took that as confirmation that he wasn’t.
So yes, if he is straight, he has been hiding behind and leaning on being unlabeled to allow him to get away with more for years, and there’s no way he didn’t know that, because if he’s straight, that in and of itself has to be the reason he wanted to “wave off discussing his sexuality,” because he knows that he can’t say the same things or get away with the same blunders as a straight man as someone who’s unlabeled, that he’s held to different standards if everyone sees him as a straight man saying the same words.
And yes all of this, save perhaps the last paragraph, is also entirely true for Jensen. He has said and done some egregious things since the show started, and I personally wouldn’t want him to be straight for that reason. And especially in the earlier years, it was much easier to think of him as closeted than homophobic. Both of them have gotten better wrt potentially homophobic and uncomfortable jokes over the years, but as I said, all of that baggage would still be entirely there, knowing that all of it was just cruelty and thoughtlessness. It would absolutely feel like a betrayal. Along with the fact that, in the same way that it feels good and right to relate to them in being neurodivergent, it would feel very bad to suddenly not see them as something you felt you did relate to them with and that they could personally understand on some level.
There is always the issue of, as a fan, not wanting to come up with the negative possibilities in things. Misha’s in a hotel for a couple weeks, and you don’t jump to “he’s getting a divorce from the woman he’s been with his entire life,” that doesn’t even cross your mind as a possibility.
Misha repeatedly says he’s a top, and you don’t think “what if he’s not actually queer and just thinks gay sex is funny,” you think “oh, okay, I guess he’s a top because he keeps saying he’s a top” or possibly “sir, are you a bottom, why do you keep saying you’re a top.” And the same goes for a lot of the reasons people have thought and assumed Misha has been queer this whole time. He asks a fan if they like cock too, you don’t assume that he’s pretending, because why would you? He makes a joke about going both ways, you think he must be a bisexual man making a joke about himself not a straight man making a joke about bisexual people. He posts a throwback picture of his last night in jensen’s apartment on the last day of Pride month, and you don’t assume you’re being fucked with, you assume he’s just being sentimental and romantic. He’s obsessed with coming out and being closeted and uses it as a metaphor more than anyone you’ve ever seen, and you assume that’s for a personal reason not voyeuristic fascination. He calls Cas a “creepy, queer angel” and the other angels “normal” and you assume that since he’s always said he’s seen normal as a bad thing, that he must be saying this as a queer man himself.
There are of course many things in this same vein, not least of which, when someone you trust says that they’re bisexual, in a lighthearted manner or not, you’re going to take that to mean they’re bisexual, not treating it as a laughable idea. And then when someone you trust, a poet, agrees with someone saying that all poets are bisexual, you are of course going to think that this is them reiterating and confirming their sexuality, not just treating the whole idea of bisexuality as a punchline, because why would you.
He did this, he did all of this, not anyone else, just him.
This post is very rough so far, and I apologize. All of this is to say, it makes sense to be hurt, to still be hurt, to feel bad, to feel weird, to feel confused or conflicted. You want to take him at his word, but which word? Which time? When?
I don’t think it matters, morally, one way or the other whether you believe Misha saying he’s straight, or you believed him when he said he was bi, and ultimately, I think fandom is for enjoyment, so whatever is going to make you happy, as long as you’re not mean, and you’re not bothering or harassing anyone about it, I think it’s all fine.
And I think ultimately you need to respect yourself and your own mind and your own judgment. We are fans, not his friends, and this is a great reminder of that. It’s not a mutual relationship, and we not only don’t owe him unconditional trust any more than he does us, but we shouldn’t give him unconditional trust at all, because he is a celebrity, and as I said, we are his fans not his friends.
So if you’ve been made to feel shitty and delusional and to doubt yourself and your own experience, please don’t. The reality is that there are two options, he either relied on keeping his sexuality ambiguous so that he could get away with more, or he’s not straight. The reality is that there’s nothing wrong for having thought what he wanted you to think and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with feeling hurt by it.
I’m not going to get into my own opinions on which is true in this post, because that’s an entirely different bucket of worms, but it legitimately hurts to see people so hurt by this when they’ve done nothing wrong. People have very legitimate reasons to be very deeply hurt if not totally traumatized by this, especially given the history of Supernatural fandom and what it’s been like as queer fan of this show and of destiel over the years. It stabs right where we’re most tender by the one person that we thought we could trust with it.
This doesn’t mean that he necessarily did anything wrong. It doesn’t mean that there’s an enemy here, but it does mean that there are legitimate reasons to feel hurt and betrayed.
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On SPN, Burying Your Gays, and Being Heard
I am shaking, I feel sick, I feel like I’m insane. And did I run a little wild with the theories? You bet. But you know what didn’t help? The botched clusterfuck that was this entire goddamn finale debacle. How was I supposed to believe anything they said in panels when M&G dialogue would leak saying the exact opposite? How was I supposed to grieve and move on when there was nothing from the cast and crew? Nobody said anything! And any info leaked just destabilized what we already knew or directly contradicted what we’d been told. In light of that, how was I supposed to trust anything anyone said? One rogue translator reciprocated the love confession and I was practically sold, because there were so many questions surrounding the English text that this was something good, something that logically fit, and something I wanted to hold onto.
Because they hurt me. This is about so much more than one episode or a ship; for years queer fans have seen ourselves in these characters and been told that we were crazy. That we were reading too much into it. I’m not sure how people get upset and offended when a storyline that doesn’t exist... doesn’t exist! said Guy Bee (2013). And then, after all of that, they turned around and said magnanimously, you have your version, I have mine... and that’s okay. But it’s not okay. It’s not okay, because that doesn’t erase what came before - that doesn’t erase the baiting and the gaslighting, and that invalidates everything we felt in the time leading up to that episode. It gave them an open window for all the subtext that came after. It allowed them to brush us off.
And then we got Cas’s love confession. I watched that scene about 500 times. Added to the rest of the season - to the fandom avatar being presented as successful and intelligent, to arc being the death of the author - I felt seen. Really seen, by a show that made it its mission to erase me. I had been okay with Cas dying at first because I had been sure the romance arc would carry through. I had been convinced that after everything, there was no way they would give that to us and then take it away.
But they did, because this is Supernatural. To anyone saying this is not bury your gays, I implore you to read up on the Hays Code. This link is to an amazing queer history podcast and the episode that covers it. In short, the Hays Code was a legal document that came about in 20th Century Hollywood during the puritanical war on the American entertainment industry, and it stipulated what was not allowed on screen. Not all of it was queer - there’s a whole section about kissing - but what the Code is most remembered for is that queerness was not allowed on screen. But queer people are resilient, and so they started testing the waters... and it turned out that you could in fact code queerness into a narrative, as long as it was subtextual, or as long as the queer character died/was punished, or both. The point is that the character is not allowed to live their truth openly. They are buried, either in the ground or punished in the narrative. The former is normally what we refer to these days, because the latter just doesn’t really happen anymore.
Until Supernatural.
Castiel is immediately punished for speaking his truth - and please don’t tell me he leveraged that punishment and so he had agency. Literally the only thing that could make him happy was confessing his feelings, and so the Empty deal was directly related to this idea of queerness-as-punishment. That being said, Bobo wrote a beautiful scene. Cas’s confession was a love letter to queerness and coming out... but everything that came after buried him. Castiel may have ended the series alive but he was effectively written out of the last two episodes, and that means that he actually never really got to live his truth. He was silenced by the narrative - that is punishment.
Dean is a whole other can of worms. Does one rogue translator confirm canon bi!Dean? Or do we have to read our own version of the text? The fact that we even have to ask these questions firmly places us in the realm of queerbaiting. Were the writers trying to get bi!Dean approved but were unable to? I have no idea, but queerbaiting requires proof that the writers encouraged a reading they had no intent of following through on, and we certainly don’t lack in evidence of that. Not from this writers room, but from those of previous eras. Did these writers try? They might have, but the funny thing about queerbaiting discourse is that there has never been a show to bait this long, and I’m making the call that even if you tried at the end, you baited me with half the ship and all the years that came before.
Of course, the narrative leaves open the possibility of bi!Dean so if you do read the show that way, that means Dean also falls into the bury your gays category; if you read the show this way - which many of us do - the mere suggestion that Dean Winchester was bisexual was enough to punish him. And he was punished. We’ve all written extensively on this, but he was given a random death, on a case his father never finished. All that growth, all that time spent having him accept himself, love himself, that was all taken away. He died the way he always thought he would: as a tool, in service of his father, protecting his brother. He had always believed he’d been a body to throw on the sword and in the end that’s all he was. And when he gets to Heaven? He’s also silenced. He barely speaks in the episode except to monologue during his death, and that is 100% Sam-centric. He is scared.
It was horrific to watch. I sobbed so hard my roommate was seriously concerned.
I had been fully prepared for Supernatural to end disappointingly. I had figured everything would end with a huge heaven reunion because white, straight, cis-male S&F writers love the idea of death as a reward, but instead of being disappointed I felt like I had witnessed a slaughter. Every single one of the queer themes intrinsic to the show: found family, resilience, speaking your truth... were gone. And I know we’ve talked about this too, but it bears repeating, because in doing this, in writing the queerness out of its narrative, Supernatural effectively looked every one of us queer folx in the eye and said: you are not important. You don’t matter. All of that stuff that came before is all good and well, but what really matters at the end of all things is blood family. It’s two brothers in a car. Life sucks but at least we get to die and go to paradise - real paradise, that your angel buddy died for and then made for you and who we never hear from again.
I felt insane. I felt cheated. I felt humiliated. I felt devastated. I still feel all those things, but listen to me. You have been heard. Not by Misha Collins, who is a great guy, but doesn’t get it. Not by Jensen Ackles, who is a similarly great guy, but also just doesn’t understand. And not by anyone else who worked on this show.
You know who heard you? Me. The people who follow me. The people who follow you. We saw each other, and heard each other, and we gave each other a leg up. We made memes. We wrote fic. We drew fanart. We made gifs. All for ourselves and all for each other. We broke Tumblr multiple times. We donated over $60,000 USD to multiple different causes. We got multiple hashtags trending at multiple different points, and today kept it up because we demanded answers and then we got them. There were at least 5 articles written about the show today. We made that happen. We made people listen.
Supernatural didn’t deserve me, and it didn’t deserve you. It didn’t deserve Dean. It didn’t deserve Cas. It didn’t deserve Misha and Jensen. But this show ended with a bleak, awful message and we turned around and showed them that love is loud. So what about all of this is real?
We are.
#alex talks#spngate#archived#this was very therapeutic#and i honestly don't know if i will ever be able to love something like this again#because i have been burned oh man#but this fandom is amazing#and i am proud to be a part of it#and i am not going anywhere#journaling#15x18#15x19#15x20#castiel#dean winchester#destiel
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Honestly I've been thinking. All I want is to go to Andrew Dabb's house and knock on his door and ask him if it was worth it. If him getting his 30% audience score on rotten tomatoes really was worth disappointing so many fans in so many ways. If he's been plotting his last revenge against deancas shippers as soon as he became show runners and knew he would make an end that is so bad and heartbreaking for the fans of the show. I'd ask him if he sincerely feels proud of the work he's put in, his last hurray, his legacy, if he really feels like this was it for the show.
Like Jensen has been saying he doesn't like the ending since 2019 (?) So Dabb has had plenty of time to change things around. But he didn't. So is he really like.... Is this really it?
Not even mad at this point. Just.... sad and tired like is homophobia that important to you man. Is queerbaiting really worth all of this? Idk. It's just sad to think 12 years of this happened and all we have to show for it is whatever the hell they gave us.
If you watched “carry on” and the hour of preamble live, I think you received an amazing class in the power of narrativizing wherein the cast and writers of supernatural tried to convince you, the audience, what the tv show you have spent hundreds of hours watching has really been about this whole time. 15.20 is not so much a finale as a set piece that desperately wants to assert its status as The Final Word on what supernatural is. I agree that dabb is most certainly at fault, but I also think it’s a testament to the lack of belief in their own work shared by much of the writers room as well as the network, coupled with the bizarre demographics of america’s most unifying tv show, that they felt they could only aim so low and yet committed so fiercely to their own undoing. it seems almost silly at points to be upset with the finale because it is frankly such a blatant power grab. they defanged god, symbolically washing their hands of their own narrative missteps, and chose to push past that into? nostalgia? calvinism? circularity? it’s very telling that the thing dean most needs to convey upon his death is how nervous he was to see sam at stanford that first episode. there’s no reflection. there’s no growth. there’s nothing built on that. it’s about the perpetual motion machine of supernatural chugging on even when it no longer has a conductor. it’s about shrinking the narrative all the way back down to its own infancy, not even acknowledging what it became but reestablishing what it set out to be and declaring “this is what it has always been.”
put simply, it’s a lie! “writers lie.” how deeply compelling it is to me that supernatural contains all the antidotes to its own ending. that it told us again and again that the only solution is to write your own story and that it would never do anything on purpose as interesting as anything it did on accident, that its characters shone their brightest when they fought tooth and nail to be who they chose be instead of who they were told to be. of course it remains most mind-boggling, as many people have pointed out, how easy it would have been for them to cash in on that sweet sweet representation, but I am oddly thankful they didn’t because it would never have worked if they actually tried. and now what that means is it was never theirs. it was cas’s and dean’s and it was ours. it is ours. maybe it’s jensen’s and misha’s too, but really and truly it is ours. I hope andrew dabb sleeps well at night knowing every person who creates something out of the deluge of emotions destiel inspired in them since november 5th has about a million times more perception and integrity than his last act. but I mostly don’t care how andrew dabb sleeps since his bills are probably paid and he no longer has any say over anything that happens in the world of supernatural. we do. and to say we have nothing to show for it... well that’s also a lie. just go rewatch tierney’s strawberry blond amv. or scroll through soup’s art of our favorite little gay family. look at sam’s auden edit, or, fuck it, go find out whatever kath is doing half the time. as ephemeral as social media tends to feel, we are literally reclaiming the narrative every day we assert that we know supernatural was about gay love and its power to change the world. always above all else. love.
#every day i get anons and then i give them back things that are not really answers but more just like#extended monologues during which i cry and then immediately leave my computer to pretend to be a normal human person#spn#anon
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saw an annoying take on twitter so instead of doing my school assignment i’m going to vent
i’m very happy they waited until the very end to tell us, unequivocally, that destiel was basically real. Notice how I said unequivocally but then ‘basically’, which would contradict each other — but I say “basically” because Dean never got to speak on it. But at least one half did.
For those of you who followed me for a while, you know I was always Destiel positive, but I also never wanted a declaration of feelings until the end. I had guessed a few times, or hoped, or prayed, that if it were to happen then it would be at the end.
the twitter take i saw was a screenshot of a former TVD writer saying it was a cowardly moment to put it at the end of the show.
This is why I get annoyed when people who don’t watch SPN or had written for it actually try to give their opinions.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course but this one has the same air as all the other non-spn watching or engaging-with people who tried to have hot takes on 15x18, 19, and 20.
This person obviously hasn’t seen the few instances in the last year where Misha pretty much said that this was a hard hard thing they fought for and even just 5 years ago probably couldn’t have happened.
This person was a writer for TVD and a former showrunner for Roswell NM on the CW — I’m saddened by the fact that they are seemingly not taking into account the reasons as to why 1) this happened at the end and 2) why it couldn’t be followed up. TVD started three years after SPN did, so this person should understand how homophobic TV can still be. This was all on the CW.
but anyway —
The reason why I was happy they waited until the very end was because this show was full of enough drama, enough hardships, enough everything without the need to throw this relationship into the mix.
By this, I mean they, Dean and Cas, really had to figure themselves out before any real exchanging of feelings could happen. Cas’s whole confession was also him telling Dean he changed because of Dean etc etc learned to love because of him etc etc. They needed character growth. Dean had some in season 15 too, but they prevented him from making that final jump — because again — homophobia.
I’m not one to believe in a lot of CW conspiracies anymore, I did at first because I had nothing else to believe in but now I really only believe in this one: They did not want Dean Winchester to vocally state his queerness.
The writers and those involved with the show got by with what they could — there’s a difference between queerbaiting and queercoding. The show queercoded and tried to push through that final barrier but in the end, only one got through — and it was their third lead, “non human” character. And if that was a struggle getting it done, then you can imagine the struggle when it comes from your white male lead you’ve had since 2005 who has fans from right-leaning other white males to queer women and enbys.
But the reason why I wanted them to wait until the end, barring any CW interference, was because, again, they had to figure out who they are. Dean had to start to get a handle on his anger issues [though he was still scared by the end] and Cas had to go through and figure out who he was as a being.
This show is dramatic, emotional, and stressful for its characters. No romantic relationship lasted very long. I usually hate it when pairings get together so early in the show because then all that i’m going to be subjected to is relationship angst. For the most part. Boy Meets World? The epic highs and lows of the Cory and Topanga relationship but it was set in a sitcom world so even the dramatic bits like Cory cheating on Topanga I knew would get worked out. But Shawn and Angela never did and I’m still sad about that lol.
But The West Wing? Josh and Donna finally got together halfway through the final season though it was a ramp up since season 1. Because that show is stressful and dramatic, I was grateful that by the time they got together, Josh was on this new journey being involved with the Santos campaign, and Donna seemingly found herself as well with the help of Josh [and Josh helped find himself as well and admit he missed Donna etc etc]
On SPN — the bad guys already used Dean and Cas in a sense against each other. Him or us. Your boyfriend first. Attatched at the... everything. Villains would use Cas’s closeness with the Winchesters against him and them. I didn’t want that to be even worse with a romantic relationship. We’d spend every season with a problem happening and to me, it would have clouded their relationship for me and I feared I would have ended the show thinking maybe they shouldn’t be together.
But by waiting until the very end, if the show ended correctly, it would have launched us into a sandbox world where we the fans could dream up of endless scenarios and events for them, good and bad, and we could control them. It would leave us off with the show ending, but this overwhelming sense of happiness that their relationship was finally realized on equal ground with them and we last see the characters excited and interested in figuring everything out.
So when this writer says that waiting until the end of the series was ‘cowardly’, i get it, i totally do, I get where they’re coming from — however to me, I don’t need 12 seasons of this relationship to be QUEEEERRRR REEPPPPPPPPP because I would rather see them develop around each other, see their feelings grow for each other, and then end on a happy note — rather than have them rush getting together, and then have their relationship be put through the meat grinder.
But Jen! (you may ask) They DIDN’T end happy together! (if you don’t believe they’re all in heaven like me).
Yes well — that’s where we get to the Dean problem. Cas’s moment was just fine — however they needed a few more episodes to button it up and have Cas get rescued and then Dean also be able to complete this emotional character arc with Cas. But he didn’t get to do that, and again, I’m going to blame the CW on that. I’m not blaming Dabb, I’m not blaming Bobo, I’m not blaming anyone but the CW and maybe a little bit of Singer.
It’s why I am trying to manifest hard, every day, a continuation effort by jackles or someone for 6-8 additional episodes to sew it all up.
So yeah anyway thanks for reading this rant — I haven’t done this in a while. I just don’t like it when people who don’t watch the show, didn’t really see the full 15x18 episode, etc etc, try to act all knowledgeable about it and then try to give a take like this.
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Jensen’s comments on 15x18
(Source: @DeansSqueeQueen on Twitter)
DeansSqueeQueen: How was that scene emotionally being filmed? And also we never got to see Dean’s reaction because Cas got taken so fast. How do you think, if we had time, how he would have responded to him?
Jensen: Umm great question and it’s funny because I have, all season, in fact I don’t even remember the last time, maybe a big huge season ender or something and i don’t know who’s responsible for this because I would love to say thanks alot you jerk umm but they sent me a reaction video. It’s like a real time critique from a real fan and I found it fascinating. Like I said I don’t know, I rarely ever do it, I did it for 18 and I wanted to see what the reaction was, and that quickly led to, I didn’t want to go on Twitter you know.
DeansSqueeQueen: It was trending you know
Jensen. Yeah Misha sent me that, he was like, hey dude the episode is trending right now, and I was actually driving home from Colorado. So I was on like a road trip so I didnt get to see the reaction, so when I got home, uh, I looked up a few of the fan kind of reaction videos and there was one, this one guy who was the most beautifully reactionary kind of person you would want. And he was so emotional and I felt like he went through a couple boxes of tissues. But he was so emotional about that scene, and he had to pause it a few times, it was just really entertaining. I sent that over to Misha, and he sent me another one back, and so then I became really interested and wondered what the fan reaction is.
Then I watched the show, actually watched the episode, and I will say that some of Dean’s reaction of what I played into Dean, they did not use. Uh, in the final edit. But also some of the stuff Misha played in to his side was cut. And that’s very common, editors will trim up things to speed up a scene, to the point, they call it taking the air out of the scene. Taking the air out, and they’ll kind of condense it and it’ll be a concentrated version of that scene that was filmed.
I knew that scene would be, I mean obviously we’re saying goodbye to one of the most beloved characters to ever be on Supernatural. And uh also one of my dear friends, I actually had uh, i had one of our crew members take my phone. I was like will you just take pictures of this, and maybe some videos, because I want to remember this from my perspective, and not Dean’s perspective that’s on the screen, because that will be a highly edited version with music and visual effects and special effects and all that stuff and I want to remember this, I want to be able to go back and watch this, uh, from my, from Jensen’s perspective on how this happened between two friends irl and two friends in character life, and I was really pleased.
Misha had a tall order that day, for me I just had to be there and watch him kind of go through that emotion and get that all out and it was a beautifully written script and Bob Berens did a good job of crafting that dialogue. From Dean’s perspective, and Misha and I have talked about this, we’ve talked about this prior to filming that scene, during that scene, and we’ve talked about it since. I’ve actually talked to him uh, a lot this past week, about the reaction, what we want to add to that reaction, how we want to navigate that. Because we’re getting a lot of questions about what do you think, what do you mean, what was your intent, and he and i both kind of talked about, well if you, and this may be a little a little too out there but go with me here, well artists don’t stand in a gallery next to their painting and tell you exactly what you should be seeing.
And I kind of, I hope it doesn’t sound like a cop out, because it’s not meant to be, its truly meant to be. I knew where Jensen was in that scene, I also was making a choice for Dean in that scene. I kind of knew what I was trying to play with him, but at the same time what came across from a visual standpoint and a storytelling standpoint, and the audience perspective could be a multitude of things. And I would just, I would never want to tell someone what they should and shouldn’t see. Um, and not that, and again I’m not trying to do a cop out because I know it was a very important scene on a variety of levels, but I kind of, and I always thought i mean i’ll give you guys a little bit of an insight into.
There were no choices made on Dean’s part, and I hope I made that apparent because he was dealing with something far greater than what Cas was expressing to him. He was dealing with his friend was about to die. So I’m not sure that Dean absorbed or processed anything that was coming out of his mouth at that moment. And I will say that they were cornered. You know you had these two characters who only know how to fight and they were in a corner that couldn’t get out of So you couple that with the fact that now this person, this best friend is now going to sacrifice himself. I think it was all too much for one human to kind of absorb.
But you also have to remember that Cas is a celestial being, and he’s thinking in a way that might not be comprehensible by a human heart or by a human brain. So the things that he says I always from Dean’s perspective, I don’t know if I understand where he’s coming from or what he means from a humanistic stand point, even though he kind of transferred into a human over the course of twelve years. But he was always coming from this, there was always an angelic aspect to him that Dean may, or may not have understood. So I don’t know, don’t know how humanistic the feelings being professed at that moment were, or maybe they were, maybe that was what was happening. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer. I think that’s the beauty of what this story gives you, hopefully it gives everybody something.
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Y yo a ti, Cas -segunda parte. Because of course Mexican Cas pulled us out of despair and can throw us back in.
Ok, so the last 24 hours have been a bit of a rollercoaster and now I have another post to write about how dubbing is made. Because I love Misha a lot, and I respect him but… the whole rouge translator thing just doesn’t jive with reality.
Now, first of all I want to make a disclaimer: I do not believe that there’s a conspiracy to keep Dean closeted and away from Castiel. That makes absolutely no sense, no matter how you slice it. Among other things, conspiracy implies intent, and I really doubt the CW, Warner Bros and everyone involved in the marketing choices cares that much. At most, I think that there was a misunderstanding of marketing/PR and now people are doubling down on trying to pretend it didn’t happen. But a conspiracy? Nope. This isn’t THAT important, and it would require a LOT of people involved to make things work.
Which is precisely why the rouge translator thing doesn’t work. Because you would need a conspiracy to MAKE Destiel canon in order for it to be real.
Second: As I write this, I still don’t have an answer from the voice actors. But rest assured, WHEN they reply (or we can organize a panel so YOU guys can ask directly), I will tell you the absolute truth. If I am wrong with my assumptions, and it WAS a rouge translator, I will let you know, and I will admit I was wrong. And if it was from the audio (say, a Jensen adlib) or the actual script? I will also let you know.
Third: I don’t doubt that Misha REALLY believes the rogue translator thing, if it was told to him by TPTB. There’s no reason to believe he knows how dubbing works in Mexico, nor how many people check the final product. Or that he even watched the episode, instead of believing it was a fan clip. Also, I respect him immensely and I don’t want any hate send his way.
That said, let’s go into how dubbing works, again.
For the sake of argument, I will start with the idea that yes, there was a “Rogue translator” who decided that THIS was the perfect moment to make Destiel canon. Not, say, Season 8 when he could have translated an “I need you” from Dean into an “I love you” when the god tablet thing happened, not in season 12, or during the purgatory prayers. No, the best moment was two episodes before the finale, when he had to know that Cas was not coming back.
And yes, the translator knew Cas was not coming back because when we translate series, we get them in packages of 5 episodes or more at the time. So they must have had 15x16 to 15x21 (The interview special) all together. So they knew that this was Cas’s exit from the series.
Now, in my previous post I said how in the old times, we used vhs tapes and paper copies of the shooting scripts (when they were available that was not always). Now a days, we get the video file and a word document (if we’re lucky. If not, we make the word file). Translate everything. Go through it AGAIN to make sure the lip sync matches and that we don’t have huge speeches when there’s a small window of time to say the speech because of the language differences. Check that we didn’t accidentally used a slang word that only Mexico would understand. If the show is not PG-13, make sure our swearwords are not too bad or too localized. THEN we send it to the studio, which prints about four copies of the script and hands it,and the video, to the Dub director.
The dub director then goes and re-watches every episode, while checking the script. Some directors don’t speak the language, so they’re just checking cadence, time, and the damned lip sync. (And if you, as a translator, don’t match the lip sync? You are either back to training or out of a word if you get too many strikes). So sure, you could slip a change of line there, IF the director doesn’t speak German, or Japanese, or Hindi.
But almost every single dub director speaks English. So a change from “Don’t do this, Cas” to “And I, you, Cas” would be noticed then and there, and changed to the right line. Which means that, for the rogue translator thing to work, we’d have to add also a rogue dub director.
And honestly, do you see a professional dub director with more than 15 years of experience (because you don’t give a series to a newbie, and Supernatural had the same dub director for all it’s run) risking his job for ONE line?
Anyway, in the times before the plague dub actors were called in groups to the study to record, in order to save audio tracks. So, for example, all the Inner Senshi would record together when doing Sailor Moon, and I assume in Supernatural, Sam and Dean’s lines would also be recorded together, while Dean and Cas might have been or not. Depending on times and so on. So you’d had at least 3 people in the studio: Dean’s VA, the dub director and the sound technician. ALL of them checking what was being said, what was in the script, and listening to the original audio.
Some actors would also make corrections to the script there, making some lines easier to read, and, again, checking those damn lip letters (Can you tell I HATE the lip letter thing?) . I remember fondly the VA for Sailor Jupiter, Araceli de Leon (RIP), who was known as “The Corrector”, since she would go through ALL the scripts for everyone with a red pen. The day I handed a script she didn’t find any corrections, I was jumping out of joy. So if 15x18 was recorded AT the dubbing studio? Someone who knew English could’ve caught the difference between the “Don’t do this” and the “And I you”, making it harder for our rogue translator to go unnoticed.
But let’s say it was recorded post-quarantine, when voice actors work alone at home, in their own private sound studios. I have no idea if they would have the director at hand through zoom, but I assume so. In any case, the VA would STILL have the original audio to know how the lines were said, and after 4 years of dubbing Dean Winchester, I will assume that the VA knows at the very least a little bit of English so if his script said “And I, you Cas” but he heard Jensen say “Don’t do it, Cas”, he would’ve made a correction there.
That’s now two people who would have to ignore the rouge translator’s actions, and even help them, in order for this theory to work.
And then the audio goes back to the director, who checks it again, makes sure it is lip synced and well acted, and sent to the audio technician who mixes it all, and now we have a THIRD person who could’ve said “Hey… uhm… this line? Is not what it says in the original” and by this time, we’d have to have a conspiracy to keep that “And I, you, Cas” in the final product.
Which brings me to person number four: Once the dubbing is done? It’s reviewed by the client (In this case, WB Latam), who gives the final say and CAN ask for redubs if necessary.
Story time. When I was doing this for a living, I got a series that had the WEIRDEST line ever. A line that made me triple check I was hearing things right (because it was a damn adlib that I couldn’t check with the script)
It was: “I’ve been listening to jazz even since I was a sperm swimming in my father’s testicles”.
So yeah.
I was a pro, so I didn’t censor it or change it and send it as it was to the director. Who OF COURSE called me and asked “Are you 100% sure that’s the line?” (This was in Japanese, and he didn’t speak Japanese. He trusted me). And I said “yeah, but if you need to change it, we can find another way to say “I’ve been a Jazz fan since before I was born”. “ He, Jack bless him, said “Nah. If that’s the original, let’s keep the original”.
The client was NOT amused and we had to change it in the final product.
Now, this was a throw away line by a secondary character that never appeared again in the series, in a small scene that probably only I remember. And the client still said “Nope, change that”. I’d like to believe that a line that changes the relationship between two main characters would have the same, if not more, scrutiny from TPTB.
Which makes now four people who would have had to either ignore the actions of the rogue translator, or actively participate in a conspiracy to make Destiel Latam canon.
Which, I dunno about you, sounds like way too much effort for something that was going to last for exactly one second before Cas got sucked into the Empty.
Someone made a mistake? Probably. But I am more willing to bet it was whoever sent the master video file to the studio than the dub studio, if that line wasn’t supposed to be there.
#Supernatural mexican dubbing#dean winchester is bilingual#dean winchester loves cas#they silenced you#mexican cas is a rogue translator#the character not the va#dubbing#the Winchester hermanos
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[part 1/2]
Hi, I’ve fallen in the cockles dumpster years ago and I don’t know how to reach the surface anymore.
we can say I’m a newbie on your inbox and I just thought we could all tinhat a little bit about one of the things that sold me on cockles to be a real thing: honcon 2017.
Here’s the list of things I can’t find a platonic heterosexual explanation for:
(Funny but useless foreword, a few days before the con a fan tweeted a photo of a rainbow she saw when her flight land in honolulu and said she took it as a sign that was gonna be a gay weekend, and man she was right lol)
1- Misha flew to a hawaii on thursday just like all the other guests who were supposed to be at the con way before J2 did.
We know j2 stopped shooting the same day/the day after because on friday Jensen was spotted by a fan on a plane to honolulu even tho he was expected to be there on sunday.
while Jared preferred spending that bit of free time at home. (Gen posted a few instagram stories of jared and the kids in Texas.) Jensen went straight to misha instead.
Even tho at the previous con j2 talked about how the following weeks were going to be full of work commitments and between work and cons so close to one another they couldn’t see the families as much.
I’m not saying Jensen didn’t miss his wife and kid. He loves them and clearly meant it when he said he missed them so much. That’s why it was surprising seeing him join misha so early. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say it was a planned trip to spend time together.
2- I think it’s positive to say he was there early for Misha and only misha since that night a fan took a picture with them at an hotel bar. She posted it on instagram and said it was just the two of them, then she had to put the account on private since too many people were asking questions.
It’s strange how we only got one photo of that night tho, they’re always super nice with fans when being approached and usually after the first brave soul finds the courage to ask everyone else follow through.
Again I think they clearly wanted to be alone that night. No fans no castmates.
Maybe they were celebrating something?
3- Then the panel happened.
We all remember Jensen showing us how bad his kink for misha’s weird accents have gotten, how cheerful and at ease they were on stage.
Even I could feel the love was in the air and I live on the other side of the ocean!
welcome to the dumpster, nonnie! i love all of this a lot. i *just* got your part two and i am putting it and my reaction under the cut!!
[part 2/2]
4 - Jensen also bought matching shirts for his friends. One black shirt for him and an identical one for his bro. But misha’s was red cause he knows him well enough to notice he never wears black shirts.
I mean Jensen has a history of showing affection through gifts, (I have a few examples on my mind but no time to write it all down now)
That was a nice thing to do.
5- Least but not last
THE DINNER STORY.
I don’t care if it’s been years I’m still not over how sweet that moment was.
The question was an easy generic one, It took misha less than two minutes to answer.
But then mr. 10 years. same bar, same table. same company. grabs the microphone and procede to share with us one the sweetest memory of Misha he got.
I mean it was so unexpected. Unlike Jared and Misha he’s careful about what he think is appropriate and what’s not.
In my mind it sounded like: “Listen I know it doesn’t answer your question but I’ve just spent a good weekend with this person right here, that I clearly love and care for, and I’m feeling soft, so let me tell you about how I realized I was whipped on him since our very first date”
Again I find it curious Jensen was reminiscing about how they first got together on that particular weekend.
The same one he decided to join misha early just to be with him.
That was one of the moments I realized there’s no way this is a platonic relationship.
Ok this turned out way longer than I expected.
I clearly miss jenmish so much I can’t stop blabber about them.
I’m sorry
Polaroid anon
first of all: don’t be sorry, i truly loved this because i felt like i was seeing the panel again in my minds eye while i was reading your message.
second of all: you are absolutely right about everything except for calling misha’s shirt red. it was orange, which is misha’s favorite color, which makes it even more special that jensen got that one for him.
i also think that jensen went there early just for mish, which is just. a lot. it reminds me of another con, where jensen could have gone home already but he waited for misha who had to do something else there the next day, and then two days later they were spotted together i think at the airport.
i 100% agree that the fact that jensen shared that story about one of their first dinners is very special and rare. especially because in the past, whenever somebody wanted to hear a story from them, they both never knew what to share (probably because of lot of their stories are not suitable to share tbh) and to me it almost felt like he really thought about what he could share and what he would feel comfortable with, after all those times where he just went ‘shit idk what to say’.
and what he shared just felt so romantic? like. the look on misha’s face when jensen was talking was also so soft, he was clearly thinking back on that moment. a moment they both remembered all those years later. i mean at that point they had known each other for nearly 10 years and they still remembered that one particular night. it made an impression on both of them. it was a date. and then to top it off jensen added that he thought to himself ‘but i think i love him a little bit more too’. wow.
see, no need to apologize for talking a lot, as i clearly do the same sjfhshf.
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this might be a weird thought but the way jensen performs masculinity (and i KNOW it’s a performance cause like, have you SEEN the mockumentary?) is just.... so inherently queer to me lmao
ok. okokokokokok. you asked for this. i have a LOT of thoughts on this. it’s gonna be under a cut because i’m gonna be annoying and psychoanalyse a celebrity i’ve never met(and hope i never do) but trust and believe when i tell you i know what i’m talking about so
you want my opinion? here goes. there is absolutely no way jensen ackles is straight. i hear you, ‘how do you know that he’s bi? that’s invasive and creepy’ but may i counter that point by saying how do you know he’s straight???? why is the default for everyone heterosexual? that’s a toxic mentality to have; ‘oh you don’t know for sure so just treat him like he’s 100% straight just in case’ like....what? heteronormativity drives me wild i’m sorry
and also, um, just to, um, prove my point that this man is decidedly not straight™(i really don’t want to do this but like it has to be said) we KNOW he’s not straight because his d*ck has spoken for itself around misha, like, four times. I HATE SAYING IT!!!!!!! but, um, straight men don’t get aroused by men. ...do i really need to explain myself further???? that’s what i thought(and don’t give me the ‘it could have been for unrelated reasons’ or ‘that wasn’t a boner!’ crap because um good lord yes it was and misha caused every single one so no it wasn’t a coincidence i’m gonna move on before i collapse into myself like a dying star)
anyway, on to the topic at hand which is jensen and his performative masculinity. and it’s a juicy one.
after the unconscious amount of hours i’ve put into watching and subconsciously judging jackles, i have come to the conclusion that like, 90% of how he presents himself and talks and even moves is an act. it’s a facade. it’s a shield. he is not that person. it actually seems exhausting, because he tries to compose himself in this macho, manly, confident and effortlessly cool way, but he’s not that person he desperately wishes he was and wants to be perceived as. he’s on guard every second, even the slightest tilt of his head is like, pre-meditated in some way? if i’m going FULL body language analyst mode, i’ve noticed he has a certain posture he always shifts himself into, and it’s very ‘pursed lips, stoic faced, gruff voiced, square-shoulder, broad and manly’ but, not to be rude jensen, it kind of reads as a little kid imitating the adults he thinks are cool? oof i am going IN huh(it’s out of love though i promise)
he is trying to be this person at every second:
because that’s who he wishes he was, because that’s how he gets validation from the people around him that he looks up to; straight white guys. but to me, who he presents himself to be at conventions is just as much of a performance as this whole eye of the tiger bit is.
oh i should mention i know his body language isn’t naturally like that because how he naturally carries himself is actually pretty flamboyant? like he seriously must be toning himself down HARD
examples:
there’s no tension in his body here as opposed to the eye of the tiger gif. i’d describe it as...generally loose and free? he’s at ease when he moves like that and you can see it.
oh and dude!!! DUDE!!!! how could i not mention the fucking SPECTACLE that is his voice??? jensen. i watched season one. i know where your voice naturally sits. THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU SOUND LIKE. and there have been so many accounts of fans visiting jensen in his trailer and being surprised that his real voice is two octaves higher. again, his performance of masculinity is all encompassing. he can’t even talk normally because, in his mind, that’s a chink in his armour.
and, like you said, anon, this whole smokes-and-mirrors gong show of ‘i am the cool texan man’ is inherently queer. who are you trying to impress??? guys??? that’s pretty gay dude.(btw: gay[honorary])
i feel like i’ve already read this man for filth but i have to keep going bc i have so much to say
ok next thing i’m gonna talk about is how jensen says one thing but everything else about him tells us the exact opposite. another HUGE element of performative masculinity, ONE THAT DEAN WINCHESTER IS A MASTER OF. have i mentioned how dean and jensen are like mirrors of each other when it comes to their sexuality and queer identity??? because it is fascinating how everything i say about jensen also directly applies to dean.
allow me to introduce the grumpy face™. as in, the face he glues on when he’s enjoying doing something but doesn’t want to let anyone know it. and it’s ALWAYS when he’s doing something that could be seen as unmanly in any way. (and when i say manly i mean the ‘ideal’ version of manhood that doesn’t really exist but that jensen seems to be striving for[and dean too])
prime example is this video he did with daneel. the grumpy face™ doesn’t budge the whole time as he’s like,,,,playing an instrument and acting like he doesn’t want to bc i guess that’s too girly??? but i also find this video fascinating because the joke IN it is kind of that they’re both poking fun at him for being so insecure about playing a freaking flute. because, i mean, he gets into it, but he wants you to think he is not.
also this picture.
what is this. i hate them. jensen is smushing himself into misha’s forehead but noooo his face is telling us ‘i hate this’ because CLEARLY he does. also misha’s so happy ew gross
he does that face in photo ops with misha ALL THE TIME but how many times has he also literally asked the con goers if he can also have those photos on his phone too? because of course he actually loves touching misha and is actually a sentimental fool but he tries so hard to hide it and fails so spectacularly.
oh and this. and of COURSE this. actually let’s talk about the hitch kiss for a hot minute because it’s a perfect example of exactly what i’m talking about
(he is so transparent guys. he tries so hard but he’s so obvious.)
1. misha was never supposed to be onstage with him. so it’s a boldface LIE and OBVIOUS PLOY TO GET MISHA TO KISS HIM when he says ‘they’d like us to make out now’. but of course the way he says it is ‘oh my god can you believe what these crazy panel people are making us do haha but i mean what they say goes amirite’. same energy as ‘oh my god did you just dare us to kiss rn???’ ‘....no i didn’t’ ‘oh my god i can’t believe you’d ask that haha but i can’t say no to a dare lol’ it’s the SAME THING
2. the fact that he was in the worst mood before misha came onstage and FAKE KISSING HIM made him feel...SO?? much better? like not just a little better a lot better like, again, that says a lot, because if they weren’t dating he would not be in a better mood if misha kissed his cheek unprompted. bc that cheek kiss wasn’t a joke it was a genuine sign of affection and AHHHH
3. after the kiss happens. you know, the one that jensen actively leans into and is smiling like an idiot the whole time through and is quite clearly having the time of his life during....he says ‘well, that was uncomfortable’. .......my guy. um. i don’t know how to tell you that i do in fact have eyes and you are NOT pulling the fast one you think you are
like i’m so sorry jensen but i have you pegged. it’s literally no use.
god there’s so many instances of him doing this with misha specifically. the whole ‘ew gross lol’ but then everything about him tells us the exact opposite. like this(i hate this. how dare he say ‘he has though, hasn’t he?’ LIKE THAT?????)
so yeah my point with that is he really wants us to think he is one thing when he is the antithesis of what he’s trying to be. he really likes those things that he talks down about, and everything he’s loudly projecting is all to hide how he really feels. he went to a gay bar with daneel, for crying out loud. he wants to play a role in drag. he’s queer and he likes it. pov: you’re jensen ackles train of thought: ‘ok so i really like this thing that people might make fun of me for or call me gay for liking so if i just say ‘lol as if’ and make a grossed-out face they will be FOOLED. i am a genius. hey misha wanna blow on my ear lol i meAN GROSS EW’
i have two more things i want to talk about when it comes to this topic so PLEASE bear with me anon this is why you took so long to answer clearly lmao
ok so we’re now going to go over my favorite hot take of all time. which is ‘how do we know dean’s performing masculinity? because sam isn’t.’ only replace dean with jensen and sam with jared and oh my god do we ever have a case
jared is as STRAIGHT as they come. he is secure in that knowledge. and that’s why he is perfectly comfortable treating misha like this:
and not try to scream ‘i am not enjoying doing this!!!!!!’ at us. because he doesn’t care what we think of his sexuality like jensen does(because he has nothing to hide whereas jensen DOES)
something i found the other day that no one has brought up but i SCREAMED upon finding it is this one clip THAT I CAN’T FIND OH GOD but i promise i’m not making it up. i can’t believe i can’t find it guys it is gold. i need need NEED to talk about it. and if anyone knows what i’m referencing and can apply links in any way i will love you forever but here’s what happens off the top of my head:
ok so i’m a bit too braindead to explain it perfectly but um basically it’s a j2 panel and someone brings up magic mike and i think jared says ‘yeah i didn’t watch it’ and then jensen says ‘all the way through’. stupid joke. whatever. the joke is that jared is gay for watching magic mike.
and then i literally kid you not. jared gets this like ‘jesus christ ok dude? lol’ look on his face and then goes ‘projecting much, mr. ackles?’ and jensen gets a guilty look on his face and walks away. and jared did not say it as a joke. he was being dead pan and earnest. and jensen knew it too, he knew he was projecting. i wish i could show you guys the clip i promise if i ever find it i’ll link it but IS THAT NOT SO DAMNING FOR JENSEN????? like come ON. also proves my point that when you compare how they feel about watching magic mike. jared doesn’t care bc watching it just doesn’t interest him, but he also thinks that just watching it in itself doesn’t make you gay. jensen however.......has a different mindset, clearly.
‘projecting much, mr. ackles?’ is actually a great title for my next and FINAL section(we’re almost there folks) which is how jensen projects his insecurites about his own sexuality and relationship with misha onto misha.
i hope by now we’ve all seen this video of jensen impersonating cas. it is a blatant microaggression on his part. and like obviously homophobic. it’s like in his mind if he makes fun of them for being gay it makes them both less gay somehow??? it’s self-deprecation in a way??? let’s just tell it like it is: that impression was just jensen’s overt internalized homophobia rearing it’s ugly head. he does it a LOT too when it comes to misha.
i mean:
and that whole mess where he’s making fun of misha for being a bottom in their panel in 2016? ‘so you’re saying, like with football terms, there’s a handler and there’s a receiver heheheehe’ jensen you’re not exempt from being gay just because you know football terms lmao
oh and his OTHER impression of misha where he mocks him for...bicycling...because it’s not a manly enough sport??? jensen NO ONE else has ever thought this hard in their lives about what constitutes as masculine enough to be a sport before. that’s all you bud. we don’t find those jokes nearly as funny as you do. you are reaching, sir
the good news is that misha thinks it’s hilarious and knows it’s projecting on jensen’s part and will tease him endlessly for it. many stories come to mind, like that one photo op story where they’re literally dressed in rainbow banners and pride stickers but when misha goes to hold his hand jensen said something like ‘no way’ and then misha stepped back, put his hands on his hips and went ‘that’s the part that’s too gay for you???’ and jensen LOST it
or when that whole underwear thing happened(messy messY MESSY BTW) and then a fan asked a question about what dean and cas would do in rome and misha just said ‘when in rome’ and jensen makes a face like ‘are you serious’ and then misha says ‘you can’t look at me like that anymore, because of what you did!!!!!!’
OH and that whole story about when misha suggested they put jensen in the closet for that cat video....yeah um
and then when jensen was asked to do bisexual finger guns for a photo op and the con goer said ‘he looks bisexual here’ and misha literally said ‘oh he definitely looks bisexual here. i would say he’s actually closer to the gay side of the spectrum’ so..um...make with that as you will
OH MY GOD i’m finally done. wow. WOW. that was a lot. i hope i’ve blown your minds. ty anon i really wanted to talk about this and i hope you’re happy with the outcome!!!!!!
#cockles ask#sexuality spec#jensen is bi#anti rps for ts#cockles#liz answers#ok i have to admit it is crazy i have retained all this info#i hope someone appreciates it#my analysis#mine
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Okay, I just have to comment on this [X]. In a couple different directions really.
First, agreeing with the obvious - of course Misha is making A SHOW of support for attention, because Misha is synonymous with desperate for attention. Especially since I wouldn't bet against him being entirely aware delusions about him appearing on TW to make D/C canon was keeping a bunch of his loonies on the hook.
Then we move along to the usual fallacy of thinking that if something doesn't happen on social media, it hasn't happened. As we see every damn time someone on the cast has a birthday. Considering Jared did mentor the TW cast to some extent, he likely did talk to them about the cancellation at some point - he just didn't feel the need to make a(nother) public comment.
Of course after that, we've got the same old same old cluelessness of thinking the actors should be reacting when the fans find out about something they've known for a while. This is 'How dare anyone be happy when Misha is getting divorced!!!' all over again. They really think because an article was published just now that Jensen and the other TW people only knew it was dead dead now? I mean, of course some of the fans had wildly unrealistic expectations, but do they really think the TW team wasn't aware most cancelled shows don't get picked up elsewhere (it's rare for any show at any time, but for a not-particularly-successful CW show during a writer's strike)? This wasn't a surprise to anybody who knows anything about how things actually work. So they're not only asserting Jared should look less happy at an SPN con where fans are paying to see him, a moronic premise to start with, but that he should do so over something that's not actually news, just some fans belatedly noticing their unrealistic expectations bubble get well and truly popped.
Which brings us around to the final load of nonsense which comes back up all the time, present in the linked post and the anon, people in this fandom being way way more confident in their ability to read the actors than they are because they're projecting like a fucking IMAX on steroids. Jared is smiling and laughing this con weekend because ... Jared's public persona for cons is generally smiling and laughing. Despite the assertions Jensen looks "pissed off" or "a bit off" or whatever? I looked through the tags and from what I saw? In a few photos he's doing his usual grumpy Jensen schtick, which again ... is just something he does at cons. Not to mention there are plenty where he's smiling ... just like every other con. They're doing what they always do, not sending you super secret signals with their faces.
Every kind of interpretation it's possible to do, certain loud parts of this fandom are embarrassingly bad at it because they don't care about common sense or full-picture context, just their own weird-ass agendas.
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Hmmm, this spn prequel seems to have ruffled a lot of different feathers. My dash has provided me with Jared hate, Jensen hate, confused tinhats, and even a splash of Cockles/Destiel opinions.
Here’s my take. Spoiler alert: unpopular opinions ahead. I’m not linking anything because I’m in the middle of an unprecedented heatwave and I don’t feel like finding all the sources. Do your own research. Or not. Whatever. I just want to get this all out as coherently as possible. Here we go:
From the beginning, Jensen has been a professional. He didn’t let the drama on Dark Angel get to him and he’s said that he actively avoided having that same drama on the set of spn. He’s known as One-Take-Ackles because he brings his A-game every time.
Jared liked to mess around on set. Take after take after take after take. There was reddit post about how the crew would be working 13 (?) hours to get everything set up and still had six hours of teardown to do and then bam! actors messing about and making the day longer. Like, just say your lines dude. Anyway. Jared liked wresting, getting others to break, and pranking. I think he even pranked Misha by ruining his car more than once. Not cool, IMO.
J2 had a massive fight on set in season two. I recall it being about Jared egging Jensen on to fight but Jensen just stared him down until Jared left the set. They made up and agreed to never do that again as it promotes a bad workplace. Keep your shit contained, kind of thing.
But Jared didn’t, not really. One incident in particular is the wrestling with Osric Chau. Osric is a trained fighter and Jared was apparently going to slam him into the concrete. I repeat, into concrete. Osric dislocated Jared’s shoulder as a result. Jared still didn’t back off and Osric dislocated it again, this time Jared needed surgery and rehab. The wrestling finally stopped.
In all of this, J2 became good friends. I, personally, believe they started messing around sexually right after they auditioned for the parts and then got serious early on. They lived together, and Jared had his first breakdown immediately before announcing his engagement to Gen.
J2 are a good match. Jensen grounds Jared and Jared helps Jensen to be more outgoing while ‘on’ outside the set. Jensen seemed reserved and shy before Jared and was more confident and comfortable with Jared by his side. Jared can spin almost out of control and Jensen helps keep his feet on the ground. They also have an energy that’s been described as lightning in a bottle.
Fast forward a whole bunch of years. They’re still on the same show but have other interests. Each of them ensures that the other has the spotlight in turn. When one has a project, the other is quiet on social media so the focus won’t be taken away. They tell each other everything, as evidenced early on when PR and managers tried to play one off the other. They simply didn’t allow that to happen. Nope. Instead, they stepped back so one could shine. Jared opens a bar and Jensen is supportive. Jensen opens a brewery and Jared is supportive.
During all of this, they still perform at cons for fans. For a while, near the end of spn, I noticed Jensen seemed to be drunk/drinking often. He had a flask while getting a tattoo, he was spotted with fans while drunk and kissed one, the Bad Idea Instagram post. This isn’t unusual. He’s an adult. He can drink. I just thought it odd that I was noticing it more and asked myself, was he always a frequent drinker and he just stopped hiding it or is it a result of the rise of cell phones and constant casual photos?
But then Jared was arrested. He was drunk. Not tipsy or having a good time. Drunk. He assaulted an employee. A lot of people said he was just a big puppy and he didn’t mean anything by it, but that didn’t sit well with me. By this point I’d heard too many stories about Jared being a bit of an asshole. Also, I don’t think Jared has depression. I think he has bipolar disorder. He’s had too many incidences of mania for me to believe it’s just depression. He feels emotions deeply, that’s obvious to me, but he also has emotional swings that remind me of my own bipolar disorder. Am I self-inserting? Maybe. But I know the signs and I see them in Jared. BTW, depression meds can bring on mania if you have bd. You need a different cocktail for bd, and you shouldn’t drink while on them.
By the time J2 announced the end of spn, Walker was already in the works. I knew something was up when I saw Jensen advertising himself at every opportunity. The whole King Bacchus thing and him showing up at after parties/events that are designed for networking kinda cemented this for me. I figured he was parading around looking for work and wondered why Jared wasn’t doing the same. Then Walker was announced.
Now, I admit, my timeline there might be a bit off. Maybe Walker was announced before Jensen was King, but my brain is melting and I can’t remember. Either way, I did note that Jared had plans for post-spn when Jensen didn’t.
The wives started getting involved. Gen is on Walker and Danneel is part of Chaos Productions. Me, being the tinhat that I am, thought this was to ensure the wives have an income and are tied to their husbands. From a non-tinhat pov, I can see their involvement as a natural, nepotism thing that happens.
Jared is doing well on Walker, or so I’ve heard. I haven’t watched the show. Jensen got a role on The Boys and is filming now. Cool. Cool cool cool. Both have acting gigs.
Then Jensen announced, on social media, right before the Walker finale, that there’ll be a spn prequel that’ll be narrated by Dean.
Right. Before. Walker. Let that sink in. All these years, J2 have always stepped aside for one another to ensure they have the spotlight in turn. But now Jensen is hogging it? Jensen is taking the focus off Walker and putting it on himself? Not cool man, not cool.
Also, there was no mention of Sam in the prequel. No mention of the other half of spn. Jared has said, publicly, that he’d drop anything to work on spn stuff, so he’s available. So why wasn’t he ‘in the know’ about this? How could Jensen have slipped this past him?
Jared was seen in Colorado during Jensen’s birthday, just before Jensen went to Toronto. So they’ve seen each other. Even if, in the minuscule possibility, that Jared didn’t see Jensen that weekend, they’ve admitted to talking to each other a lot. So why didn’t Jensen, at any point, tell Jared about this prequel?
Then Robbie Thompson tweeted. Jared was hurt even more. Apparently, I heard through this blue hellsite, that Jared wanted RT to write for Walker, but RT refused. Why? Who knows.
Let’s go back in time, shall we?
Jared messed around on set. Jensen didn’t. I can believe that some crew members/writers/producers/directors would have hated working with Jared. Yes, I said that. Not everyone likes a goofball or prankster. Some people think those people are bullies in disguise.
Maybe, just maybe, the lines were drawn when spn ended. Some people supported Jared, others Jensen.
Before anyone yells at me too loudly, answer me this: how did Jensen - and everyone involved in the prequel including Kripke - keep this from Jared? Didn’t anyone at any point ask how Jared felt about it? Or if Jared was available? Or if Jared would have input? “He’s too busy on Walker” doesn’t cut it as an answer to me. Spn was about two brothers, always two brothers, and now a prequel will only feature one brother?
So I came to the conclusion that the industry deliberately took sides in this whole thing. Nobody told Jared because they didn’t want to work with him again. He has his own show, he’s busy, - these are easy ways of handwaving him out of the equation.
Bottom line, finally, is that Jensen stepped in some shit when he didn’t tell his co-star, his partner, his friend, about a prequel to the show they worked on for fifteen years.
Will I ever know all the details of why Jensen would do this? Nope. I’m not in the industry.
I still believe J2 were/are in a relationship and their wives are beards. I believe they have a wonderful friendship and were as close as two people can be. I don’t want to think that relationship is over. I don’t want to believe they’ve gone separate ways. But man oh man, Jensen fucked up big time here.
I can’t wait for a tell-all book thirty years from now.
#anti Jared#anti Jensen#cockles#destiel#J2#J2 tinhat#tinhat#spn#prequel gate#prequelgate#Jensen Ackles#Jared Padalecki#Misha Collins#osric chau
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RANT. (It’s a long one, sorry, I’m a bit of a rambler. Also happy to be proven wrong if that’s the case or to discuss what u think about it. My opinion is not a fact and opinions are never facts)
RPF is peculiar thing in todays fandoms. All the fighting and bickering who’s right or has “the real scoop” about personal lives makes me livid. And I mean those ppl who bring that kind of shit to Twitter or Instagram tagging the actors in question/commenting on their posts. It’s basically harassment. Tumblr, as a social media platform, where fans can interact with each other without directly attacking the actors, is different tho. Here we can safely speculate, share fun theories, video clips and be crazy about it all we want.
My two cents on J2 and Cockles truthing.
Do I ship J2? – No, there’s just no romantic/sexual chemistry between them (I don’t get that vibe). Jared is the straightest man out there and Jensen can only tolerate him at cons or other PR events. (see, I can say this and not attack others, cause IT’S MY OPINION)
Do I ship Cockles? Yes and no. Would consider myself somewhere in the middle when shipping Misha and Jensen. I’m rather fond of their close friendship. Is there anything more to it? Maybe… who knows. There are signs saying perhaps that was the case some time ago. Others believe in polyamory theory while being respectful to their wives. Could they still be together? again, WHO KNOWS? As fans, we can discuss this and not directly shove those speculations in actor’s faces.
A bit of a tangent on shipping real ppl from other fandoms, but it will make sense in the end (I think)
I was never a big 1D fan (knew few popular songs and basic info about them as individuals). Only found out about Larry ship being a thing through my ex who adored the band, especially Harry. We talked for quite awhile and she mentioned how there were less and less public interaction between Harry and Louis. Fans kept annoyingly pushing this narrative about them being together over and over on their social media accounts, so they stopped posting all together. Every single little interaction with each other were seen as codes or subliminal messages that they “are secretly together”. They were basically harassed and bullied over it. It’s crazy if u ask me. Even if it’s true or not ppl have no right to make other to come out.
Another example great example of fans sometimes taking it too far is Septiplier (Markiplier and Jacksepticeye). Knew of Jack and enjoyed his content back in good ol’ Youtube days. I was unfamiliar with this ship until recently. Jack was a guest few years back on a podcast and was asked about this shipping phenomenon. What made me listen up was his view of it. Bromance is fun and the fanart was spectacular according to him. However he was uncomfortable when the insistent shoving reached harassment territory. Jack mentions starting to become more and more weary of any platonic interactions between him and Mark. Cause every time fans would just say “see!, they are definitely fucking each other when so and so hugs one another or looks for more than 2 seconds”. Every public exchange were under scrutiny. So, I’ll ask, how would you feel if someone watched your friendship that closely and made invasive comments about it? Not good, right?
Misha once talked about this too. Cockles ship specifically. Not every single sentence they shutter to each other or joke online is code for “we secretly fuck”. Men, women and every other gender under the sun can be just friends. It’s that simple.
So stop. If you go and harass the actors about real people shipping (or celebrities in general) on their social media – fuck u. Do you want to chase off your idols of social media? I don’t. They give us content, so we can continue speculate more in this safe lil’ corner of Tumblr. If u fight with others – sit down, and take a breather. Attacking various opinions (and mind u, those opinions are speculative at best) is not a way to go. Constructive discussion while being civil IS A WAY TO GO.
And lastly why why why ppl get so offended over opinions as if they’re being attacked personally? Does your (not u specifically, but to those few who take it to another level entirely) whole personality revolve around a ship? All I’m saying it’s not worth of a hill to die on.
Mic’s out.
#cockles#real person shipping#spn family#other fandoms used as an example#misha collins#jensen ackles#j*red p*dalecki#rant post#my opinion only
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