no hate but if i was george rr martin and i saw the state of the fandom that came from my books, i, too, would not think of finishing the series on the stance that you all do not deserve it.

Characters with arcs similar to Spider's:

Kovu:

Tarzan[literally they are the same character]

Koda:

Jim Hawkins:

Jake Sully[from the first movie]

Jon Snow:

My favorite character archetype

Discussions the other night on The Discord were making me think about the differences between show!Theon and book!Theon characterization and specifically led me to the thought of how show!Theon has a certain aspect of his canonical counterpart’s characterization reversed. That’s probably not the most accurate way to put it, but what I mean is like:

In the books, every time someone, specifically a Stark (especially specifically Robb), gives him shit, he kind of…just takes it. Put your sword away, Theon; let me humiliate and lowkey threaten you in front of half of my household guard even though you just saved my brother, Theon; why are you so proud of your insignificant war trophies, Theon? He doesn’t really respond or gives only a half-hearted retort/defense. For all the talk of him smiling in a disconcerting way, he kinda never really fights back, even when he’s being attacked with bullshit.

On the other hand, in the show, Theon’s always got something to say (especially to Robb) when he thinks they’re full of shit. “Put away your sword” à “I take orders from your father, not you.” “You have no right” à “to what? To save your brother’s life?” let’s have a row about it! “It’s not your duty, because it’s not your House” à oh now you want to know where Bran is? Sorry, don’t know, “it’s not my House.” Show!Theon, in those first seasons, doesn’t really take any shit, hostage or not.

Then Ramsay happens. Theon is obviously terrorized and tortured into submission, dehumanization, dissociation, etc in both cases. Then he gets out. That’s the plot.

After, show!Theon capitulates to accepting constant humiliation. He never fights it, he never really tries to defend himself, even when he should/could. The Starks are his sole purpose in life, with a slight detour to help out his sister, and that’s in parallel too, but not the center point here. There’s the occasional moment of dignity in how he handles the humiliation, true. Occasionally, he gets the bright spot – snipping at Euron at the kingsmoot, fighting side-by-side with Yara, that smile after the Dragonstone beach fight… But overall, he’s all too willing to degrade himself and to let others degrade/humiliate him, especially if they’re Starks (or “Starks” as with Jon).

In the books…even with all the misery and torture and submission that he’s forced into under Ramsay, he never quite loses that streak of defiance? From thinking that not matter what Ramsay does to him, he can’t take his sanity unless Theon lets him, to thinking smack about how ugly Ramsay and his crew are, to the bitter dark humor when he’s imprisoned and (once again) tortured, this time by Stannis. And yes, this is all very internal and externally he probably would seem just as broken and submissive, etc as show!Theon and I think initially when I watched the show, I just projected Theon’s ADWD defiance onto the show scenes because he could still be having those thoughts. But on re-watch…. The thing is, book!Theon has external  moments as well. From insisting to the spearwives that Bran and Rickon weren’t his brothers so he might be a lot of things but not a kinslayer thanks, to insisting to Stannis, not without pride, “I saved the girl.” Even Stannis laughs at him, he insists on it.

It's just such an interesting (even if I hate the show’s choices, it’s still like interesting) thing how there’s this double reversal where show!Theon starts more aggressively defiant and comfortable in that defiance against power moves, humiliation and submission than book!Theon seems to be, but then after the Ramsay Thing (TM) these characterizations get, relatively to each other, reversed.

I was inspired by the post about the Starks’s book respective ages and the ages of Game of Thrones actors who portrayed them in the show. Everyone was aged up in the show and we tend to forget how young they are in the books.   

I think it’s worth mentioning that Jaqen is also significantly younger in the books. Whenever Jaqen shows up he looks like a very young man. Even when he takes someone else’s face, it’s always a very young man’s face. We learn it first hand from Arya who describes Jaqen as young while at the same time she thinks that 30 year old men are very old. We also can conclude his real age because we meet Pate who is a foil for Jaqen. Pate was born at the same time as Aegon Targaryen, son of Elia and Rhaegar. So, it’s another clue about Jaqen’s true identity and his real age. “Jaqen” is 18 turning 19 in A Feast for Crows. 

I know I have mentioned it before in other posts but I think I still need to stress it. It’s not just about his identity but about his personality and his relation to Arya. “Jaqen” is only 7 years her senior. It changes their dynamics and it changes our perception of them. He is barely older than Jon. It’s also mind-blowing to think what this young man is capable of. He is already a pretty powerful assassin at the tender age of 16. He survived the Black Cells. He wanders around Westeros, trying to cross people off his list, hatch a dragon and get the throne back. It’s even more impressive when we know how young he is.

I also think about all those wonderful fans and fanfiction writers who try to overcome the obstacle which is the age gap between Arya and Jaqen. Don’t worry guys, it’s not such a big deal in the books.

Of course, I adore Tom Wlaschiha’s Jaqen. And I love the chemistry Maisie and Tom have. And I think the show dynamics of Arya and Jaqen is also very interesting and the age gap might make it even more fascinating now when Arya is of age. If HBO ever does A/J sequel I want them to cast Tom and Maisie again. But I think we should remember that the show and the books are two different stories. 

Jaqen H’ghar, born in late 281 AC or early 282 AC, age 17 in AGoT

Tom Wlaschiha in season 2, age 39.

Tom Wlaschiha age 24. Definitely closer to book “Jaqen” though still 7 years older than “Jaqen” when he meets Arya.

i love when arya and sansa's character parallels each other! each of them having the looks or one parent and the personality of the other! they both travelling back in time: sansa to the vale with her mother's old friend (lf) and arya throughout the riverlands with her father's old friend ghost (gendry). sansa dreams of arya! arya hears premonitions about sansa's future! they're my girls and they love each other. being trapped by a bravoosi entity which tries to take away their identities! brienne trying to get to sansa and following in arya's footsteps! arya being heavy related to harrenhal and sansa's mythos being so similar to danelle lothson (red hair, the wolf with bat wings!!!).

also i have the theory that the maiden with her hair/the one who slays a giant in a castle of snow are both sansa and arya. sansa "killed" joffrey because of lf and is gonna kill lf. and arya is gonna be probably with the black pearl! she has the perfect opportunity to poison someone in a similar way by the orders of the faceless men and then causing their downfall (there's a theory somewhere of the bravoosi titan falling). their fates mirroring each other and then they find each other again!!!!! the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives!!!!

So I thought this was interesting as I rewatched these scenes and I just have to talk about it for a second.

We all have talked about that 8x01 solar scene, that moment where Jon moves closer into Sansa's space, the tension, etc. But what I haven't seen talked about is the lack of something else:

(1:17-1:24 - can't clip it, sorry)

We know that Jon moves closer after Sansa confirms that yes, she does have faith in him. While this moving closer is meant to symbolize that the chasm between them (over Dany and the knee bending) is a little bit smaller in this particular argument, it also I think it symbolizes something else.

Not only is this the Jonerys version (meaning the setup) of the 8x01 scene for contrast, but notice how when Dany says she loves Jon, he reaches out and places his hands on her waist, pulling her closer.

(and this doesn't even include the cave scene in 7x04, the complete boat scene in 7x06, the crypts scene in 8x02, Dany ripping her arm out of Jon's grip in 8x03, the fireplace scene in 8x05, the throne room scene in 8x06 & the lack of touching in the goodbye scene in 7x05 VS the 6x10 forehead kiss, the arm grab in 7x01)

Remind you of something?

This was part of the "kind manipulation" Kit talked about in season 7 that Jon would utilize. When Sansa needed Jon to listen, she would make physical contact. Never inappropriately or with any type of manipulative intention behind it, but to get him to hear what she's saying.

Jon learned this from her and utilized it with Dany, and often. He starts using it in 7x06 in the boat scene, after he's seen what the dragons are truly capable of.

He uses it more and more as he embarks on a relationship with Dany. And we see it continually play out ever since that first hand grab in 7x06, right up until the end of the series. It should be noted that Jon does not initiate physical contact between he and Dany in 8x05 or 8x06 (because he knows she is beyond listening to reason at this point, even before the KL massacre).

The most ironic part of this whole thing is that Dany learns this from Jon and uses it quite often as well. Even right down the the 3 times she closes the space (attempts to bridge the growing chasm) between them, in 8x04, 8x05, and 8x06. The only time in those three episodes that Jon chooses to close the space between them is 8x04 (when she has her outburst about her claim to the IT).

The difference between Dany and Jon using this tactic is the intentions behind it. It is manipulative in their dynamic, but while Jon attempts to get Dany to listen and to temper her growing rage, Dany uses it to get him to listen, yes, but also to get him to do what she wants. Jon wants her to fight the NK with him so they can save the world; Dany wants the IT, Jon as another one of her lovesick lackeys, and no resistance.

So when we look at this tactic and how it plays out throughout the two relationship dynamics and in each scene, the fact that back in the 8x01 solar scene Jon does move closer to Sansa, yes, but when he tries to convince her that Dany will be a good queen, that he doesn't initiate physical contact...I think that's very telling. So telling that it's loud.

If Jon truly believed the bullshit he was selling about Dany being the greatest queen ever, we would have seen him trying to initiate some form of physical contact between them. Not to manipulate her but to get her to listen. Because that is the way it was used with him between them.

And notice how there is no physical contact between Jon and Sansa (other than the 8x01 hug and 8x06 hug) throughout the season. Neither initiates it and I think that is also very loud. While Sansa is angry (and rightfully so) in 8x01, she does confirm that she still does have faith in him and that eases things just slightly between them. She also gets the answer to her question in 8x02. Even though they have the argument in the 8x04 Godswood scene, when Jon says he's not a Stark, Sansa is the first to close the distance between them with Arya then following. In order to reassure him that he is a Stark. (something she didn't do in 6x10 though she told him the same thing, at the time Jon didn't need such a strong assurance and their relationship has grown since then) Even when Jon is upset in 8x06, he doesn't refuse her initiating the hug. While he doesn't embrace her back right away, he does give in and return the hug, even tightening it up and leaning into it (while also being a callback to the 6x04 hug).

Despite their differences seeing eye to eye at times, they do exactly what Jon asked Sansa to do in 6x10: trust each other. Even if she's angry with him for bending the knee. Even if she's heartbroken because Jon is involved with Dany. Even if she's afraid for him when he's going South. Even if he's upset that he had to kill Dany in order to protect her and is unsure of his choice (until Bran confirms for him that it's the right one), in the way that her telling his secret contributed somewhat to the events that occurred. Even if he was angry that she kept provoking Dany's ire (mostly unintentionally) and he had to keep tempering Dany's growing rage/her impulses as a result. They still trust each other.

So I think the lack of initiation of physical contact on both of their parts speaks very plainly but loudly. Neither were trying to manipulate the other, because that wasn't part of their dynamic. Neither were trying to get the other to listen because by the end of 8x02, both knew what was actually going on, what needed to be done, and they both trusted one another. (also notice how Sansa doesn't argue with Arya in 8x04 once Arya clarifies what she respects)

So if Jon really loved Dany and believed in her right to the IT, he would have done everything he could to get Sansa to listen (because Sansa was the "obstacle" that Dany herself couldn't get past). If Sansa really believed that Jon loved Dany and he was being led around by the nose in his blind infatuation with the woman, we would have seen her grab his hand or his arm again to get him to listen to her. We don't see any of that. (this is also because they were keeping Jon's real story line/Dany's dark turn hidden from the audience to have that whole big plot twist happen)

And it's especially telling (for Jon) when we see this scene:

He places his hand on her shoulder to get her to listen and about what? Sansa. Which Arya clocks immediately since she looks at his hand and then says "She doesn't like your queen, does she?" The fact that this part of the conversation doesn't happen until Jon puts his hand on Arya's shoulder tells us everything we need to know.

He's not attempting to manipulate Arya of course, but he's trying to get her to listen so by extension Sansa will listen in regards to Dany. And as we see, it doesn't work. Even when Jon tries the familiar playful jab at Sansa that these two used to share when they were younger. Arya instead asserts that Sansa is the smartest person she's ever met. And this surprises Jon because he's not expecting this reaction (as far as he knows, Sansa and Arya still have that sibling rivalry going on). "Now you're defending her? You?" And we see him remove his hand. It didn't work. And instead, we get Arya saying she and Sansa are defending their family, Jon saying he's her family too (and confirming that he's doing the same), Arya hugging him and telling him not to forget it. Arya is not trying to get him to listen to her by doing this, but they chose to have the line "Don't forget that" happen as she hugs him. And we see that this lands when Jon closes his eyes and leans more into Arya's embrace.

So this scene:

Is even more important. Not only for the two of them and their relationship dynamic but also for Jon's character.

And the Jonsa touches (I guess you could call them) are broken down like this:

6x04 - Sansa grabbing Jon's hand (Sansa initiates) - context: to get him to listen so they can go back and retake Winterfell from the Boltons (aka Winterfell equals safety)

6x10 - forehead kiss from Jon (Jon initiates) - context: Jon is asking Sansa for them to trust each other

7x01 - Sansa grabbing Jon's arm (Sansa initiates; Jon clocks it) - context: Sansa is trying to get him to listen, telling him that he needs to be smarter than Ned and Robb

(I didn't include the hugs in 6x04, 8x01, or 8x06 because I believe they speak on their own)

Now here is the Jonerys breakdown:

7x04 - Jon gently grasps Dany's elbow to move her over to see another drawing in the cave (Jon initiates) - context: he is trying to convince Dany that they need to work together to defeat the NK

7x06 - Jon taking Dany's hand (Jon initiates) - context: Jon is apologizing about Viserion, tells her he wishes he could take it back & that they'd never gone beyond the Wall, Dany moves her hand out of his grip and tells him she doesn't because she wouldn't have seen and she needed to see

7x06 - Dany taking Jon's hand (Dany initiates) - context: she is happy that he's (and through him, the North) bent the knee and then tells him "I hope I deserve it" which he says she does

7x07 - the boat sex scene (we don't know who initiates the physical but the first scene we see is with Dany in a dominant position over Jon) - context: Dany summoned Jon to her cabin (confirmed by the deleted scene), their boat is heading North to Winterfell to fight the NK & Dany has just lost a dragon and gained a "ceasefire agreement" from Cersei, they have sex while Tyrion creepily hangs out nearby and Bran talks about how Jon needs to know the truth

8x01 - the waterfall scene (Jon initiates on Dany's urging) - context: Jon brings Dany to a spot they used for hunting when he was younger, Dany is enamored with it, tells him to keep her warm, they kiss

8x01 - waterfall kiss part 2 (Dany initiates) - context: Dany playfully tells him not to be afraid after he broke the kiss hearing the dragons, they kiss (which Drogon suspiciously watches, that has Jon keeping one eye open and turning Dany so her back is to the dragons)

8x02 - the crypt scene (Dany initiates) - context: she is trying to figure out why Jon has been ignoring her, sees him staring at Lyanna's statue, talks about Lyanna and Rhaegar, and then Jon is tells her the truth about him

8x02 - Dany rips her arm away from Jon (Jon initiates) - context: Dany has just learned the truth about Jon

8x03 - Dany rips her arm out of Jon's grip (Jon initiates; Dany clocks it) - context: Jon wants her to wait for the NK like planned but she refuses (aka impulse)

8x04 - Dany tells Jon she loves him (Jon initiates though Dany is the one to initiate the undressing) - context: Dany has just told Jon that she loves him, they kiss, and Jon moves them away from the fireplace

8x04 - Jon bends the knee and tries to reassure Dany (Jon initiates) - context: Dany is worried that he will take her claim to the IT & he reassures her that he'll refuse

8x04 - Dany grasps Jon's face (Dany initiates) - context: Dany demands that he not tell anyone who he really is (Jon gets up and breaks the contact)

8x04 - Dany takes Jon's hand (Dany initiates; Jon clocks it) - context: Dany says she wants it to be the way it was between them after she has just begged him not to tell anyone who he really is

8x04 - Jon covers Dany's hand with both of hers (Jon initiates it) - context: Jon tells her that he has to tell Sansa and Arya the truth about who he is

8x04 - Dany rips her hand out of Jon's (Jon initiates) - context: Dany is not happy that Jon wants to tell Sansa the truth because she says Sansa will want to see her gone and Jon on the IT

8x04 - Dany puts her hand on Jon's upper arm to pull him closer (Dany initiates) - context: Dany is begging him not to tell anyone (gets choked up)

8x04 - Jon grasps Dany's face (Jon initiates) - context: he says they can all live in harmony together, that she is his queen and nothing will change that and the Starks are his family (Dany stone cold, the emotion from before absent, tells him that she's just told him how they can live together, they both break the hold, and she walks away)

8x05 - the fireplace scene (Dany initiates) - context: Varys has just been executed for treason, Dany is not happy because Sansa told Jon's secret even though Dany warned Jon that would happen, Jon tells her he loves her and that she is his queen, she asks if that's all she is to him, they kiss (which Dany initiates), Jon breaks it, Dany moves back and states that all she has now is fear

8x06 - the throne room scene (Dany initiates) - context: Dany has just massacred KL while GW and the Unsullied continue to massacre unarmed Lannister soldiers, Jon confronts her about this, Dany asks him to be with her to make a new world, Dany kisses him, Jon does what he has to do

Quite a difference when comparing the two different relationship dynamics. So this ultimately shows that Jon's lack of initiating physical contact with Sansa once he returns to Winterfell, when trying to convince her that Dany will be a good queen, that she's their queen now, etc, is all very telling.

Jon knew Dany wasn't a good queen and that she wouldn't ever be. He hoped to keep Sansa safe (and by extension the Starks and the North) and that he could turn the tide with Dany, since she was family to him now. I think he planned to look out for her from that aspect while also trying to temper her impulses. From what he says to Tyrion in 8x06, he knew Tyrion's (and by extension Varys') counsel wasn't always a good one for her, either. They all knew Dany wasn't it, even before any of them knew who Jon really was. Dany was the best option (until Jon) they thought they had, willing to look the other way when she did questionable things, until it was right in front of their faces and they couldn't ignore it anymore.

So had Jon believed the best of her, he would have done everything he could to convince Sansa, in that solar scene as well as the rest of the time he was in Winterfell. And he didn't. That right there tells us all we need to know about Jon and his faith in Dany's ability to be a good ruler. Case closed.

Bloodraven is Odin

and it isn't even subtle. ;) Sometimes, because it's a fun game, I like to play "spot the odinic figure" in media. Tolkien's influence has been felt so far and wide that it's a fun game to see which characters have inadvertently been modeled after Odin. Every wise wizard you see? Odin. Gandalf is literally a name for Odin lifted straight out of the Eddas the name of a dwarf, my mistake, thanks @the-crafty-hobbit ! Wise old man with a little bit of spice? Odin. Named anything related to Woden or Wednesday? Odin. So here some facts about Odin:

Has one eye because he took it out and put it on the bottom of a well in order to access knowledge.

Hung himself from a tree (Yggdrasil) as a sacrifice to himself to be given the runic alphabet. IE, more knowledge.

Ruthless AF.

It's often forgotten, but he's a trickster god; and very manipulative.

Has two ravens named Huginn and Muninn; thought and memory.

His horse is the progeny of his blood-brother, Loki (they're not actually related in the Eddas.). Loki and Odin have a very complicated relationship, sometimes friendly, and sometimes adversarial.

Heavily associated with knowledge, travel, hospitality, trees, ravens, trickery, madness (IE, mental illness), magic, and battle.

Practices a type of forbidden magic called seidr. It's forbidden to him because he's a man, and seidr is womens' magic. Because of this he also becomes associated with gender fluidity. Seidr also is associated with manipulating fate.

Heavily into prophecy and fate. Causes a lot of his own problems because he forcefully resurrected a seeress, who told him that he would die in Ragnarok by being eaten by another of Loki's children, Fenrir. A wolf. As such, he has an adversarial relationship with wolves.

Despite being associated with hospitality towards strangers and travellers, he is also ruthless to his enemies.

Married to the goddess Frigg who, whilst being a mother and marriage goddess, is also heavily associated with beauty, prophecy, and clairvoyance. Some scholars consider Frigg and Freyja to be the same goddess, and Freya is associated with sex, love, beauty, and magic - among other things.

And now let's compare to Bloodraven:

Has one eye that he lost in battle. After the loss of his eye, his sorcerous activity ramps up.

Lives in a giant weirwood for the express purpose of knowledge and clairvoyance, with a root going through his eye explicitly described.

Ruthless AF.

A trickster as well, in the way that Odin is, meaning that he is manipulative.

Literally has a raven on his face. Heavily associated with ravens. I mean, obviously, lol. Seems to use ravens as his own version of Thought and Memory.

Has very complicated relationships with his half-brothers and his blood as well.

Associated with many of the same things Odin is: knowledge, trees, ravens, trickery, madness (As a Targaryen, and because of his use of sorcery, he's often viewed that way even if he isn't actually mad.), magic, and battle.

Practices a type of forbidden magic. Magic in general in Westeros, and as a Targaryen practicing the magic of the old gods isn't exactly what they're known for. While he is a Blackwood, and that's obviously where he gets it from, he associates himself far more with the Targaryens than he does with the Blackwoods.

Prophecy, magic, clairvoyance, and fate are his entire reason for existing in the story. So much so that there's an entire sect of fandom who are team "blame Bloodraven" and think he's behind everything. He's a tree wizard. And while he doesn't have an adversarial relationship with wolves, he's not particularly known to be associated with them or to warg into them (yes, I know there's theories.). In addition, his death is almost certainly caused by the actions of a "wolf", IE, Bran in service to Westeros's version of Ragnarok. And would we count Leaf as a seeress? I don't know.

Aenys Blackfyre will tell you about Bloodraven's ruthlessness.

Shiera Seastar is heavily associated with beauty, sex, and magic.

I'm sure people who know more about Odin than I do can add to the comparison, but this is just what I think. Bryden Rivers is Odin, and it isn't even like an influence thing. The comparison is so close that it's almost literal.

i’m starting a collection

I hate hate hate the idea that you can't like or find a character interesting if they're not completely morally good or reflective of modern-day values. And even worse, liking or being intrigued by a "bad" character must mean that you agree with their morals and everything they've ever said or done.

rewatching hotd & i wonder just a bit - i never made the connection that viserys may have let them attempt to save Aemma if she hadn’t said that she didn’t want to have anymore kids. i think that moment, the moment he realized that his final chance at a boy may die and his wife will refuse to have another, is the moment she becomes disposable to him.

and of course - it’s not worth it. the theoretical boy will never be worth the life of the living, breathing partner he has who loves and trusts him enough to clearly state that she is tired of mourning her babies. even if little baelor had lived, he would have been just as fucked as Aegon II was; raised by a father who resents his very existence because it is a reminder of the ways in which he failed as a husband to Aemma and a father to Rhaenyra. Aemma’s life was a precious thing that was not worth being traded for a boy that only existed in theory; she knew it, Rhaenyra knew it, shit even Daemon seemed to understand to a certain point that making the decision to murder a wife on the off chance it will save a son is a cruel decision for a husband to make, and that the decision should rest in the hands of the mother carrying the child (rip Rhea Royce tho, but that’s a different convo). But Viserys is so stuck in his dreams, so convinced that only a son will unite the realm that he sacrifices Aemma and the gods give him jack shit in return because Aemma’s life was worth more than what her womb was capable of conceiving, and Viserys only realized this after he had her ripped open.

And interestingly enough, because he still refuses to act decisively enough, still stuck with his head in his Dreams, he is sort of right and brings about the fall of the dragons through his continued inaction; because he doesn’t smooth things over with the sons he resents for not being Aemma’s, or pave the way properly for Rhaenyra to inherit, his death rips apart the realm. But all of that, all of it starts with poor Aemma - Aemma who decides she has had enough of her body being a graveyard and Aemma who is promptly murdered for it.

The Problem of Baratheon Succession

I’ve seen a few posts and metas about this (such as this one from @goodqueenaly) but because my own take on it is from a different angle I thought I’d make this a separate post rather than an add-on to someone elses. 

I’ve always been fascinated by the ASOIAF worldbuilding, and one of my favourite topics is the laws and customs of Westeros. This post, however, is specifically tacking the issue of inheritance of the Iron Throne.

Inheritance in Westeros

Westerosi inheritance is complicated. There are exceptions to every rule and not everyone follows the same precedents or patterns. But generally, there are three forms of inheritance in Westeros:

Male-preference primogeniture: This is the form followed by most of Westeros, where a man’s children inherit in birth order, except daughters are counted behind the sons. Using House Stark as an example, their birth order goes “Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon”. In terms of inheritance, however, this order would instead be “Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya”. If Robb were to have a child, regardless of that child’s gender, they immediately jump to the front of the line—it’d then become “Robb, Robb’s child, Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya” even if Robb had a daughter. If all of them were to pre-decease Ned, succession then passes to his next eldest brother, which would be Benjen, and if he were to be unable to inherit (such as taking the Black) inheritance would then pass to Lyanna (if she were still alive) or any legitimate children of Lyanna’s (cough Jon cough).

Equal primogeniture: In this form of primogeniture, followed exclusively in Dorne, the eldest child inherits regardless of gender. In the books, Doran Martell’s three children are Arianne, Quentyn and Trystane in birth order, meaning Arianne is the one who will inherit rule of Dorne. Any of her children would subsequently be further in line than her brothers, too, regardless of their gender.

Royal primogeniture: This was caused almost entirely as a result of the Dance of the Dragons and the succession crisis caused by Viserys I Targaryen’s death between his two children, Rhaenyra and Aegon. Rhaenyra was Viserys’ only surviving child via his first wife, and subsequently officially designated as his heir prior to the birth of her half-brother Aegon by his second wife. Once Viserys died, despite Rhaenyra being the official heir to the Throne, Aegon was insistent that a younger brother always inherited before an older sister (such as in the case above with the Starks, where Bran and Rickon would inherit before Sansa or Arya). Following the conclusion of the civil war, the Targaryens adopted this modified form of primogeniture which placed all possible male heirs before possible female heirs in the line of succession. Applying this to the Starks instead, we would see “Robb, Robb’s child (if male), Bran, Rickon, Benjen, Jon, Lyanna, Sansa, Arya, Robb’s child (if female)” instead. All possible male heirs before any possible female heirs.

The Baratheon-Lannister Predicament

But what does this all look like if we take the current Baratheon succession at face-value?

Under the standard male-preference primogeniture, after Robert we would see “Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Stannis, Shireen, Renly”. But this changes if we consider the rules of royal primogeniture as still applicable despite Robert’s Rebellion, and we instead have “Joffrey, Tommen, Stannis, Renly, Myrcella, Shireen”.

Of course, any of this is good for Cersei and Tywin, because regardless of where Myrcella falls in line there are still two Baratheon-Lannister men at the front of the line of succession to the Throne.

Westerosi or Targaryen Tradition?

First, I think it’s important to point out something which sometimes goes overlooked—Robert didn’t solely claim the Throne through his victory in the Rebellion. He claimed it, among the Lords of the rebellious faction, because of his bloodline.

His grandmother, Rhaelle, was a Targaryen and was in fact the sister of Aerys II. This makes Aerys his great-uncle, and Aerys’ children (Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys) his first cousins once removed. Despite removing the direct line of Targaryen succession from the Iron Throne, and overthrowing the House, Robert does still have a valid claim to the Throne.

Given that Robert’s claim to the Throne was supported (at least in lip service) by his blood relationship to the Targaryens and therefore its plausible to assume that the new Baratheon dynasty would function under the modified royal primogeniture rather than the standard male-preference observed by the majority of Westeros. It’s been some time since I read the books, but having recently re-watched the show, I remember several moments where it was made fairly clear that the assumption was that the Throne continued to follow this practice: Renly and Loras Tyrell had a conversation where they explicitly stated that the line of succession after Robert was “Joffrey, Tommen, Stannis, Renly”, skipping over both Myrcella and Shireen who both would have been ahead of Renly if there as an assumption that Robert intended to follow male-preference primogeniture instead. Septa Mordane also commented to Sansa, in relation to her betrothal to Joffrey, that if she only had daughters by him then Tommen would be ahead of them in the line of succession which would only be the case if they followed royal primogeniture.

So, canon material (at least, show!canon, which is tenuous) seems to follow that the Baratheon dynasty would continue to follow along with the Targaryen rules of inheritance for the Iron Throne. But in logic, I wouldn’t say that this is a guarantee.

Despite Robert’s claim to the Throne being borne out of his blood relation to the Targaryens, he himself is not of the main line of House Targaryen and was born and raised as a Baratheon of Westeros. The Baratheon’s themselves would have followed male-preference primogeniture the same as every other family in Westeros (excluding those from Dorne) and observed the traditions of such. The only reason for Renly, Loras, or Septa Mordane to assume that royal primogeniture was the order of succession to the Throne would be because of the Throne itself, and that royal primogeniture was the accepted norm, unless Robert made an explicit statement one way or the other because there’s otherwise no way of knowing because he had male children, and if we pretend that Stannis and Renly didn’t exist, the order of succession being “Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella” would apply regardless of whether Robert intended to follow male-preference or royal primogeniture.

The Baratheon Experiment

Now, this is a thought process I’m well aware sits on the line between meta and pseudo-fanfiction, but just hear me out.

My intrigue into this aspect of Westeros was fuelled mostly by my rewatch of the show, and specifically Cersei’s discussions with Catelyn after Bran’s fall and subsequent injury. She explains to Catelyn that she once had a son who also died very young, and by her description of him, it’s clear that he was in fact a trueborn son of Cersei and Robert, having been born with Robert’s black hair.

I’m going to take a quick moment to mention that genetics fanatic me was thrilled when I first read the books and worked out that GRRM had basically come up with a functional medieval understanding of dominant and recessive genes. thrilled.

This differs from the books. In the books, Cersei did fall pregnant by Robert but she terminated the pregnancy before he was aware of it. In my mind, these are the same child—the show just decided to make him live but die young in an attempt to change perception of her character and to give her this moment with Catelyn. But either way, this poses a fascinating question.

Firstly, for said question, I’m rolling with the book insofar as we do not know which gender Cersei and Robert’s child would have been. This is so that I can play around with the inheritance laws more and also indicate precisely why it was important (or not...) for Cersei that the rumours around Joffrey & co.’s paternity was ignored.

Assuming that this child was born male, this naturally places them ahead of Joffrey and Tommen in the line of succession. Regardless of Cersei having children by Robert and Jaime, so long as she’s got an heir for Robert, it doesn’t really matter what “rumours” are battered around because there’s no crisis of succession if Robert dies. Their black-haired son inherits, and the wheel spins as normal. Even if the rumours were to be mentioned by Stannis or Renly themselves, they might be in a better position to go to Robert because they aren’t doing so as potential claimants to the Throne, but that very fact also makes Robert less likely to be concerned about the situation because his brothers are still firmly in line behind his son regardless of which tradition of primogeniture he decides to follow.

This would become more interesting—and unpredictable—if their child was born a girl, because Joffrey and Tommen would both still rank head of her in the line of succession whether royal primogeniture is followed or not. However, her mere existence would be a greater threat to Cersei and the Lannister hold on the Throne because of this exact fact. If anyone (using the previous example, Stannis and Renly) were to approach Robert with concern for the line of succession, Cersei and Robert’s indisputable child being a daughter causes serious issues for Robert. On one hand, dependent on the primogeniture preferred by the Baratheon dynasty, Stannis and Renly may not be able to be taken at face value because the potential impact of their claims would move them further ahead in the line to the Throne, and therefore this could cause conflict and potential charges of treason against them by Robert.

On the other hand, if Robert were to believe his brothers or be presented with clear evidence, Cersei and her family are at immediate risk. Cersei and Jaime’s actions (not only their relationship, but then having children and passing them off as legitimate heirs to the Throne) are tantamount to treason and Robert would likely have them all executed for such a serious crime as impacting the line of succession. This would give Cersei even more reason to arrange for an accident to befall Robert if she even suspected that he knew of events, which makes way for Joffrey’s coronation and any questions of his paternity or legitimacy would be swiftly ignored or considered dangerous to pose given the power of Cersei’s position (and Joffrey’s...behavioural issues) in this scenario.

This outcome also would be the one most impacted by Robert’s choice in primogeniture for the Throne and potentially force his hand towards reviving male-preference primogeniture if he had not already intended to do so. Under this form, his daughter with Cersei becomes the heir to the Throne and would then be followed by Stannis, Shireen and Renly. If he were following royal primogeniture, however, his daughter and only legitimate heir would be passed over in favour of Stannis and then Renly (then after Renly would come his daughter, followed by Shireen). The realities of this might very well push Robert into formally declaring the Crown’s return to male-preference primogeniture and a reversal of the Targaryen laws implemented as a result of the Dance of the Dragons.

If Robert didn’t want to do this, his only other options are to either find a new wife and hope they could conceive a male heir (in doing so, given the existence of an older half-sister, he would likely have to formally designate said son his heir or otherwise make clear acknowledgement of the Targaryen rule of royal primogeniture to prevent an outcome such as the civil war between Rhaenyra and Aegon) or legitimise one of his bastard sons, neither of which would have been overly timely or ideal.

this is a weird mix of old drama and meta, so if you want to skip the preamble, go to the text under the heading ‘love vs conquest’. the drama: ok so this speculative post about book!daenerys’ fate ended up being way more controversial than i ever expected. i was pretty blindsided by the response. the only reason i made it in the first place is because it was massive cope for the prospect that book!daenerys might end up getting killed off at the end. i got kind of cowed into believing this ending was an inevitability since i had received nothing but sneering derision from reddit bros for even suggesting daenerys might have a different course in the books and live. plus GRRM himself has said the general plot points are the same. etherealdany went on to accuse me of being a biased sansa stan, then even weirder, accused me of shipping sansa/daenerys in order to hide my bias & true “hatred” for daenerys or something. i don't even actively ship them, i just rb’d cute art of them once 🤷‍♀️

anyway, it was pretty much cope, because i thought the idea of dany dying heroically on her own terms to save the fucking world was a lot more palatable than her “going crazy” and getting murdered by her lover. don’t get me wrong, i understand how insulting that is. there’s still the problem of yet another female character dying for Man Pain(tm), the major protagonist of the series no less, but again... i was kinda just trying to come to terms with an ending i really don’t want and see if i could find anything salvageable in it. upon reflection, i shouldn’t accept something just because i became convinced it was inevitable. i still think etherealdany really overreacted and it’s wild that people defended them. imo, even if you think i had a garbage idea, you don’t have to insult my intelligence because of it or search for imaginary resentment i’m apparently harbouring over a fictional character. now, yeah, obviously asoiaf is known as a series where plenty of major characters die, none of them are safe etc. so the idea of her dying isn’t out of the question. but beyond loving daenerys as a character, my main reason for not wanting this ending for dany is fairly simple! it would be narratively unsatisfying -- and not in a good way. let me get into why. love vs conquest imo, the classic “want vs need” conflict for daenerys is her desire for the throne vs her need for love. she wants the throne because she’s been fed stories about targ supremacy/westeros by viserys, but what she really needs is what she’s been lacking her entire life precisely because of viserys’ dream: she needs to be nurtured and loved. despite what the show writers thought, dany doesn’t just want obedience. there’s a reason book!daenerys genuinely tries to make her betrothal & marriage to hizdahr work, while show!daenerys intimidates him by burning men alive in front of him, then only agrees to marry him after he's begged and pleaded on his knees for mercy. at the time, i think the show writers wanted to make this a certified Girl Boss moment because daenerys trying her hardest to be diplomatic just isn’t cool enough (lol), but they later covered their asses by pretending it was foreshadowing, actually, for her eventual ‘madness’. book!daenerys constantly laments how the people around her love her as a queen, not as daenerys. which........... come to think of it, is strikingly similar to sansa’s lamentation she may never find true love..................... they should kiss (joke). she repeatedly draws a clear distinction between the impersonal love of a ruler versus the romantic, passionate love she craves. hell, even after ser jorah forces a kiss on her, she blames herself for not wanting it and tries real hard to think of him as a potential lover. this obviously says a lot about the social dynamics of the world they live in, but i think it also speaks to her deep loneliness. ser barristan loves daenerys as a knight loves his queen, irri has sex with her because it’s what daenerys wants, and daario probably just wants her for her crown. even if his love is true, it’s telling that one of her biggest fears is that it may not be. and in my opinion drogo “loved” her mainly because she would bear the stallion that mounts the world & daenerys understandably has rose tinted glasses on when it comes to their relationship. book!daenerys’ fate: short story is: i think defeating the others will come after the destruction of king’s landing -- the destruction of which will be caused by the mad queen. except “the mad queen” isn’t daenerys, it’s cersei. joncon will also 100000% have a hand in this (and i have thoughts on how this will happen but to stop this from becoming an asoiaf-length post i’m gonna stay vague). so i believe daenerys will unintentionally destroy king’s landing, and in doing so, realise that conquest...... isn’t really... worth it. i think that dovetails pretty nicely with GRRM’s general views & his dramatically ironic twists. of course, her want vs need conflict could still align with the idea i wrote in my original post; daenerys could hear of the nissa nissa prophecy and sacrifice herself with longclaw, ignoring jon’s heartbroken protests, and turn longclaw into lightbringer. then she would die with the knowledge that someone finally truly and honestly loves her for her. tragic and sentimental af, which is in keeping with GRRM’s style.

but even if it happened in a less shitty way than the show, that doesn’t make it any less shitty. how about this instead: if daenerys finds love, realises it’s worth more to her than the throne, and is forever changed by this realisation, wouldn’t it be far more meaningful if she got to live with this drastic change? daenerys being nissa nissa’d would be akin to killing off jaime pretty soon after he had his hand cut off. like, sure, it’s not unthinkable, but wasn’t it a lot more narratively satisfying to read the way this event shook jaime to his core and transformed the trajectory of his life? or maybe a more apt comparison is sandor clegane. as far as we know, the hound is dead and his story is over. but the heavy implication george gives us is that sandor lives and finds peace in the quiet isles after the hound dies. and that’s... far more interesting to me?? the great thing is, it might not even be a stretch to say this will happen. as etherealdany helpfully pointed out, it could be argued that daenerys has already fulfilled the nissa nissa prophecy and lightbringer is drogon. this is a really cool idea and LORD i hope it happens. ultimately, i do still think her story will end in a bittersweet way with her riding off into the sunset on drogon’s back, all while being reviled as “the mad queen” by the masses. which, incidentally, would be a super interesting meta commentary on what the show writers did to her legacy & how people react to powerful women generally. but is george based enough to pull this off? who the fuck knows. i certainly hope so, but i’m not holding my breath.

thoughts on house of the dragon and what it means to be a targaryen

i watched house of the dragon.  or, parts of it, at least.  the parts I found interesting.  the small but dedicated f/f corner of ao3—forever out here doing the necessary work—made a convincing case.  so, unfortunately, did matt smith’s involvement; i’ve enjoyed him since they heydays of doctor who and i’m not about to stop now. 

so: what this show has further convinced me of, is that the targaryens were never meant to rule.  daario naharis said it best in season 6 of got when he said:

 “you weren’t made to sit on a chair in a palace//you’re a conqueror, daenerys stormborn.”

some of the true dragons, like rhaenys, learn to fake it and live well in the civilized world.  some of them turn fucking insane and weak and abusive, like gold-crowned viserys.  some of them aren’t really dragons, like king viserys and queen aemma, who lack the hawkish nature, wildness, and ruthlessness that seem to be innate traits in most of the others.

but the ones with fire in their blood, the real dragons, like rhaenyra and daemon (and daenerys, in the end), aren’t made for sitting in chairs.  a crown is just another kind of chain, in the end, and it suits them ill.  rhaenerya says what she wants in the first episode, and frankly, i believe her:

I want to fly with you on dragon-back, see the great wonders across the Narrow Sea, and eat only cake.

rhaenerya doesn’t want the throne, in the beginning.  and from her poor political showing in the rest of the series, it’s pretty clear that she doesn’t have the skills or the drive to maintain that kind of position.  she only latches onto it because her father gives it to her (and then she gets backed into a corner by the inevitable series of events that follow).  all she wants is for her father to love her, and for her father to be happy, and when he makes her heir, in her mind he’s saying “this is how you can make me happy.  i love you.  i love you and this is how I’m choosing to show it.”  after that, any threat to that position becomes a threat to viserys’s love for her.

after that, she sets aside what she wants for herself—to live on syrax’s back with alicent, to live a life of wants fulfilled—in order to become what she believes her father wants.  in order to hang onto something that will make her miserable with her goddamn fingertips just to keep that horrible old man happy.

and she is, of course, heartrendingly similar to daemon and his love for viserys and his desire to please him at any cost.   that stupid old man had them both by the throat, and he didn’t realize it, but he also took it as nothing less than his due.  like with rhaenerya in the first episode, i’m also wont to believe daemon when he says all he wants is to protect viserys:

D: He doesn't protect you. I would.

V: From what?

D: Yourself. You're weak... Viserys. And that council of leeches knows it. They all prey on you for their own ends.

Daemon love Viserys so fucking much—the only thing he loves more is rhaenerya, but even then I think it’s close.  I think if the two of them had ever come into direct conflict, it would have been a close fucking call which side daemon picked.

The positions of power Viserys gives Daemon are how Daemon measures how much his brother loves him.  Making him heir is a sign of his love, but it’s not enough; Daemon wants to protect Viserys, too.  He wants Viserys to trust him enough to defend him from all comers—something Rhaenerya later happily lets him do, btw, which is part of why their relationship (mostly) worked.  He wants someone holding his leash who isn’t afraid to let him off it, to let him be a dragon.

So, when Viserys takes away that position (takes away his love), and worse, when he sends Daemon away....it guts him.  Matt Smith’s wounded puppydog eyes remain fucking undefeated, jfc.

which brings me to another game of thrones quote, from maester aemon at castle black:

A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing.

I think Targaryens are like wild gods; immensely powerful, ill-suited to anything but what they want, and the loneliest creatures on earth without someone who understands them.  being the last of old valeyria and a cultural diaspora exacerbates this problem to intense extremes—it’s why rhaenerya and daemon bond over their shared language and converse in it so frequently when they’re alone.  the whole show is the two of them desperately going “same hat!!” with each other because there’s no one else who they feel like understand them and the fire in their blood their desperate desire for the king to love them. 

all daemon and rhaenerya needed was for viserys to love them, and for their own selves to make him happy.  but viserys is too wrapped up in the kingship, in heirs and hanging on to power that he is also ill-suited for, though for different reasons that his brother and daughter, to be what they need from him.  instead, viserys wraps them in chains and ties them to the throne, makes them want that stupid chair through the transitive property of desire.  daemon and rhaenerya want viserys to love them, viserys want to keep the throne and loves the throne and the kingship, therefore daemon and rhaenerya come to want to keep the throne.

and then he does that stupid shit will alicent.  you fucked up a perfectly good lesbian, is what you did!  Look at her, she has anxiety!  so mad about that.  it’s so selfish, and gross, and it wrecks alicent and rhaenerya permanently. 

it’s just tragedies all the way down. 

it all becomes inevitable and locked in when viserys chooses an heir over his wife, when he lets otto make rhaenerya heir, when otto decided rhaenerya will make a good placeholder for the good of the realm but then doesn’t let anyone else in on the secret fact that it’s a temporary gig, in his mind.  off to the races.  first one to kill all the others wins, and claims the terrible victory of once again being alone.

look out for part two, in which i detail the way it could all go...better. not perfect. but better.

Daemon and Viserys

The moment in episode 8 when Viserys drops his crown on his long walk to the Iron Throne only to look up and see Daemon by his side was one of my favourite moments of the whole season. It really hit me like nothing else had thus far and I think it’s because of the way that it both heals the rift between the brothers that was established in episode one, and serves as a powerful cumulative moment in each of their individual journeys. 

Back during Daemon’s first banishment, Daemon hurled an accusation at Viserys that is very illuminating of Daemon’s motivations. It was that despite Viserys shuffling him around the small council and entertaining his excesses, Viserys had never fully embraced him as he should have, had never gave him his due as his brother.

Daemon wants respect, but more important is his need to feel truly wanted. For Viserys to express a desire to have Daemon by his side. He’s scared that even though Viserys may love him, he could make do without him. Conquering The Stepstones by himself was a way to prove his usefulness to his brother on his own terms, but that reunion didn’t last. After another long period of no contact, Viserys once again invited Daemon home, with a position at his court if that is what Daemon’s station requires. For the same reason he chaffed under Viserys all those years ago, Daemon refused.

This hole in Daemon cannot be filled with token positions on Viserys’s council. He wants to be embraced, not coaxed and placated.

On the other hand, Viserys’s main struggle this season was against his own weakness, which Daemon keenly pinpointed during their argument. Viserys’s aversion to conflict allowed others to erode his authority and endanger his own interests. He saw decision making as sacrificing one thing for another, so would prefer to not draw the line at all.

Viserys saw the lack of conflict in his reign as the reason he had never been tested, but it was actually evidence of his failure to set things straight and enforce his will. The test never ceased from the moment he named Rhaenyra heir.

Both of these two currents came together in episode 8. Viserys, despite being at his lowest point physically, summoned the strength to walk to the throne room and sit the Iron Throne one last time. He refused assistance from the kingsguard because he understood the symbolic power of climbing the steps to the throne alone. When the crown drops from his head, however, Daemon is there to help. He encourages Viserys up the last few steps but supports him only lightly, because he now sees that Viserys has found the strength inside himself to be king.

As for Daemon, he finally gets what he’s always wanted to; to walk by his brother’s side, to be leaned on, to be there when his brother needed him most.

And Viserys accepted his help. It’s beautiful.

I have a genuine question for some of the people that make ASOIAF art, why do some of you draw Arya with features that resemble mixed Stark and Tully, despite the fact that she’s literally describe as having zero physical resemblance to her mother? Like, part of the reason she’s so self conscious is because she doesn’t have red hair, not even red-brown. It’s literally brown, a dark brown according to art that GRRM approved of officially. She doesn’t have freckles, and her eyes are dark grey, like Jon, and like Lyanna. Why do people wanna draw some future Arya being taller than sansa also? Why can’t Arya just be short? Is there something wrong with being short? Is Arya just not allowed to be herself? Why does it feel like everyone is trying to change Arya from who she really is and what she actually looks like? Even the show runners completely obliterated her personality since episode 1. Like wtf? Arya is 4’0” by age 10, she has dark brown hair, sad grey eyes and grim stark face. A 4’0” 10 year old isn’t going to grow up to be 5’7”-5-9” later on. That’s just unrealistic. She’s short. It’s part of what makes her, so distinctly Arya! Part of the reason she’s so self conscious is because of her appearance and the fact that she has zero resemblance to Sansa. I want Arya to grow as a character and to learn to love herself as who she is! Short and stark as ever! I want her to accept herself as she is, and I feel like the people who try to change her, to the point that she’s not even recognizable anymore, just do not appreciate as her as a character. At most she’d probably be 5’3”. Even 5’5” is a stretch. She’s like a tiny angry kitten with messy fur lol. I think it’s adorable and idk why some of y’all wanna change that so badly 😭

“She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face, or her coloring”.

As a 5’3” woman with 2 older sisters, and one younger, and a mother who are all taller than me ranging from 5’5” to 5’7”, I love the fact that I have a character I can relate to that looks different from her mom and sister and is also the short one of the family. It’s just so nice to have that lol, so yeah it’s definitely personal, and some people might find it silly, but yeah, I get mad when people try to draw Arya in a way that doesn’t even fit her description, physically wise, and personality wise. Like people do not respect her. It makes me sad honestly. Just like in the books, where people like her sister wishing Arya was different lol. Some of you are irl Sansas and it shows lmao. Let Arya be her short skinny little tomboy self who likes picking flowers and can make friends with literally anyone who’ll show her basic decency.

tag drop.