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transdimensional-void · 1 day

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bael the bard, danaë, perseus, and jon

has anyone discussed before how the bael the bard legend is not only a remix of the hades/persephone myth but also of the myth of danaë and perseus?

the myth

i want to start by retelling the full myth because while there’s a lot that isn’t relevant to bael the bard’s story, i believe some of the other parts might be relevant to the future story in the books. bear with me because it’s a little long.

danaë is a princess, daughter of the king of argos. the king has no male heirs, so he consults the oracle of delphi, who tells him that he will never have a son but that his daughter will...and that this grandson will one day kill him.

fearful of his life, he locks danaë in a room beneath his palace (or at the top of a tower, depending on the version of the myth) to keep her from ever conceiving a child. however, the god zeus takes a shine to her and sneaks through her prison bars in the form of a golden rain. the rain falls upon her and impregnates her.

when the king learns of danaë's pregnancy, he decides he must get rid of both her and the child. however, murdering his own kin would anger the gods, so instead he locks mother and child inside a chest and sets them afloat on the sea. the gods intervene, and poseidon, brother of zeus, sees to it that the pair make it safely to another island, where they are taken in by the local king. the child, perseus, is raised in the temple of athena.

the king who takes them in wants to marry danaë, but she refuses. he says he'll give up on the idea if perseus slays the gorgon medusa. the gods grant perseus gifts that help him succeed. he is bringing medusa's head back as proof of his success, when he sees a princess chained to a rock by the sea. this is andromeda, who is being sacrificed to a sea monster that has been terrorizing the coast of her homeland, aethiopia. the sea monster is revenge from the gods for her mother's hubris in claiming she was more beautiful than the nereids. perseus makes a deal with her father that he can marry her if he saves her.

perseus uses medusa's head to turn the sea monster to stone and consequently receives andromeda's hand in marriage. at the wedding feast, her uncle, to whom she was promised before the whole sea monster debacle, tries to intervene, but perseus turns him to stone with medusa's head. then he takes andromeda home with him, shows the head to the king as proof of his success, and saves his mother from the unwanted marriage.

later, he goes to the olympic games and, while participating in the discus (or javelin) toss, accidentally hits his grandfather in the head, killing him instantly. thus, he unintentionally fulfills the prophecy. having murdered the king of argos, he refuses his claim to its throne and instead becomes king of a nearby land.

bael the bard

there are some clear parallels between this myth and the bael the bard myth we learn in "a storm of swords."

the king who lacks a male heir but has a daughter whose son could become his heir. the girl locked underground. the girl ripped away from her home and family. a dubiously consensual romantic encounter that results in the girl's only child. the son going on to unwittingly kill a male forebearer.

of course, the bael the bard myth is echoed in-universe by several storylines, most notably the story of lyanna...which means that it is also echoed in the story of jon.

implications for jon's story

it's interesting to consider whether some of the elements of perseus's story which aren't included in the bael the bard myth will show up in jon's story. some of them already have, such as the girl's son being rescued by his uncle (poseidon rescues perseus, ned rescues jon) and a prophecy being made about the child even before he is conceived (perseus will kill his grandfather, jon will in some way fulfill a prophecy rhaegar was obsessed with).

the stark maiden's son goes on to become an unwitting kin/kingslayer, and so does perseus. if jon ends up killing a king or queen who is also his blood relative, then he would be following the pattern set by both stories. while bael's son slays his father and perseus slays his grandfather, in both cases the girl's son kills the man who imprisoned his mother and separated her from her home and family. jon, of course, can kill neither his father nor his grandfather, as all of these people are already dead. however, he could kill another relative, perhaps one who has already fantasized herself as rhaegar...and by killing her, he could in essence be "killing" his father's family's entire legacy.

it's also interesting that, while the son in the bael the bard story takes his grandfather's seat (not his father's), perseus refuses to take his grandfather's seat after having killed him and instead takes a nearby throne. i wonder which one jon's story will more closely resemble. i don't see jon ending the story as lord of winterfell or king of westeros (his two grandfathers' seats). i can see him ultimately refusing both seats, especially considering he's already refused the lordship of winterfell. but he could be given a lordship near to winterfell instead...

another fascinating connection is the story of perseus and andromeda. the andromeda story is seen as a possible precursor to the story of st. george and the dragon update: this is the meta i meant to link (thanks to @kellyvela for opening my eyes to this amazing reference within the novels). in andromeda's story, not only does a mythical monster get slain to protect the beautiful princess, but her uncle who is trying to marry her also gets killed to keep him from getting his hands on her. i wonder if there are any princesses in the novels who have uncles trying to marry them who might need to slaying... i can't conceive of why such a princess would be showing up in a story related to jon! hmmm... of course, in george's twist on the tale, the princess will get to slay her own monstrous uncle (in a castle made of snow).

also, i'm sure i'm not the first to point out the strong possibility of danaë being an inspiration for dæny's name. dæny is a princess who is sent by sea to live in another land and does conceive a child of prophecy. however, it very much seems that with her son's death, her connection to the myth of danaë dies as well. she takes on the destiny prophesied for her son, in a sense becoming the hero of her own story.

conclusion

considering how many bael references are sprinkled throughout the novels, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are other connections to the myths of danaë and perseus than the ones i mentioned here, so i’d love to hear what other think!

#jonsa #we’ll just leave the tags at that for now #🫠#jonsa meta

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atopvisenyashill · 3 days

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Who are Sansa’s potential contenders in your opinion?

i’ve talked about this before but i’d love to talk about it again lmao. i think the potential romantic endgame contenders are (in order of most to least likely) jon, brienne, theon, and podrick (there’s a wide gap between theon and podrick) and i use the term romantic like……i mean a little loosely. i’m gonna explain my criteria a bit.

sansa’s suitors must be

within a decade of her age

someone who has, when they meet her, a claim to a seat powerful enough to at least be in the same ballpark as the Starks

someone who would be willing to relocate to winterfell or near winterfell

someone who won't feel threatened by her title

shares her romantic sensibilities

someone whose identity subverts the typical Westerosi idea of what a True Knight and a Proper Husband is

someone who is actively trying and at least partially succeeding at being a good person, but specifically someone who has themes associated with what she desires - a True Knight and Hero From A Song

so let’s explain.

firstly, when we’re talking “potential contenders” i think everyone is picturing something slightly different. i’m talking about like. the relationship that will be one of the focal points of her story going forward, the relationship that will mean the most to her bc it fulfills her dreams while matching her growth and maturity, the relationship her story is building towards her meeting. i think there’s a lot of,,,idk confrontations on the horizon. theon hearing bran in the trees. dany’s nightmare about (probably) euron. everyone and their mother hearing wolves howling in the distance. half these characters are like on a boat, on a dragon, on a walk in the woods, literally on the way to meet someone when we leave them in feastdance and sansa is no exception to this - the Themes Are Coming For Her.

i think there’s been a build up over sansa’s story that she is going to meet The Hero Of Her Dreams, but they will not fit the typical mold of a hero. They will help empower her, protecting her physically while she protects them politically. There will be genuine love, and dedication. A bond to rival Naerys & Aemon, Florian & Jonquil, a person who will love her until the end of her days…a person who is also going to be helpful when it comes to her new role as The Stark In Winterfell. this means a) the line of succession will be dealt with in a practical manner and not swept under the rug and b) someone who likely has some sort of background in either politics or battle.

Maybe it’s a contradiction to say this relationship can be romantic and satisfying to read while also saying there's a chance it will be “subtext” but…I just think, looking at his inspirations being soooo focused on things like courtly love, chivalry, that a spin that involves Sansa feeling a deep affection for a Knight protecting her, with no men around (but again, crucially, having discussed how the hell she’s going to have kids, with a partner who will not shy away from a frank discussion like that) is still a satisfying "romantic" arc. Yes i am saying this is how I have my cake and eat it too, where Braime fucks and then Jaime dies, then Brienne stays in the North with a conveniently (publicly) single Sansa who leans on her for comfort. This is my meta and we're never getting the winds of winter to disprove it, but also I'm thinking specifically of the focus on rumors surrounding the sexualities of a lot of characters in F&B - Alyn and Addam Velaryon, Rhaenyra Targaryen, Laenor and Laena Velaryon, Rhaena the Black Bride, to name just a few very obvious ones - as well as the repeated princess and knight dynamic that follows both Sansa (with Dontos and Sandor) as well as is present in F&B (Rhaenyra & Harwin, Rhaenyra & Criston, Alysanne & Jonquil Darke, Aegon & Visenya imo also fits this) that this dynamic can be romantic but also not explicitly stated to be a sexual or romantic relationship. MOVING ON.

I think it’s actually most likely that Briensa and Jeynsa that are winning the “so which one is actually gonna go canon” war bc they’ll be single, in the same place, and clearly devoted to each other while like, Jon/Theon/Aegon/Sandor/Tyrion/Basically Every Man Shipped With Sansa are miserable and cold or dead elsewhere. (littlefucker isn’t included bc he’s definitely dead 😁). I just need everyone to understand my definition of “goes canon” is so so loose. ANYWAYS. EXPLANATIONS-

within a decade of her age

i am once again saying that every relationship with a huge age gap that starts with one of them below the age of 17 ends badly and the reason is bc george is not a pervy moron, he is actually writing about the ways in which the hypersexualization and forced child marriages in westeros are damaging to these girls. “but he said dany & drogo were in love!!” he’s very clearly the sort who likes to find the romantic and erotic in the grotesque and horrific, and looking at this from the character’s point of view. i think his comments line up just fine with the justifications these girls make to themselves about the marriages they are forced into. also he’s just an old man and he phrases things in ways that make you cringe sometimes, pls be serious 😭 the only exceptions to this rule are really Rhaenys/Corlys and arguably Rhaenyra's various romantic ties but a) none of Rhaenyra's romantic relationships end well and in fact help speed her right along to her gruesome death and b) Rhaenys and Corlys' relationship is fraught with political problems and also, he has an affair with a teenager so again, george is Saying Something about the reasons why certain types of men prefer women much younger than them. "but what about roose and fat walda?" they are both gonna die horribly, next question.

SO. it’s not gonna be tyrion. it’s not gonna be sandor. it’s not gonna be littlefucker. they’re too goddamn old and sansa spending the rest of her life rationalizing these guys perving on her when she’s barely even middle school aged is not (imo) the ending she is going to get.

this leaves us with the rest of her more popular ships - jeyne, margaery, harry, sweetrobin, aegon vi, jon, theon (admittedly pushing it here! i can be logical about this!), podrick, and brienne (technically bran and arya are here too ig, i mean if we want to be really fair to all ships). onto the next criteria-

someone who has a claim to something in the same general social circle as winterfell

technically i do think there’s a chance george goes for something radical at the ending like abolishing the monarchy and if he does that i will kiss him on the mouth (with consent from him & parris). BUT. i think the most likely ending is more of a loosening of the feudal system - showing us the next few hopeful steps away from absolute monarchies. what i’m saying is The System still exists and will still exist throughout twow and ados, so I think it’s logical to assume that Sansa is not going to marry “beneath” her. if anyone does, it's arya.

anyways that’s a double pass on sandor & littlefucker. this is also why i admit pod is a stretch - the paynes aren’t nobodies but pod himself is from a cadet branch, so fairly low in the pecking order . i mostly include him bc i think he’ll make a name for himself alongside brienne, potentially enough to overcome that gap and he fits the rest of the criteria too well imo to completely disregard him. “why can’t sandor or littlefucker do that” bc sandor doesn’t have enough time before the end of the series to make up for all the shit he did as the hound In The Eyes Of The Public Or, Crucially, Sansa’s Family and littlefucker is going to die 😁

you could argue this also crosses out jon and jeyne. COUNTERPOINT - jeyne is a girl it literally doesn’t matter so long as she’s high enough to be one of sansa’s ladies and she is, so she passes; jon is one of three targaryens left alive (and even if aegon's a blackfyre, he doesn't know that so still counts!!) and all the secrecy around jon's legitimacy + robb’s will means clearly something is cooking here. also he has an impressive resume on paper.

someone who would actually live in Winterfell

I don’t feel it’s necessary to argue that Sansa is going to be IN WINTERFELL and END UP IN WINTERFELL bc she lichrally builds Winterfell after Arya, the sibling she interacts with the most, hears a prophecy about a girl slaying a giant IN A CASTLE MADE OF SNOW. This does not feel subtle nor like a stretch. Whether she’s a regent for Rickon/Bran, a ruling lady, or a queen, she is GOING HOME the same as the rest of the Starklings and she will be important in helping rebuild it. Therefore, the person she’s with has to not only be cool with being at Winterfell often, they have to not induce immediate fury and rage in her siblings.

sandor? triple dead. tyrion? we’ll call him 1.5 dead to be polite. aegon vi? doomed and dead. harry hardyng? does Not seem likely to relocate. littlefucker probably would relocate but good luck getting two steps into the north or riverlands without every living starks’ “it’s time to beat that annoying fuck up” alarms blaring in their heads ready to run him through.

theon is a hard maybe but since he actually feels bad & also grew up with them, i think he has plenty of time in the next 2k pages of story to make up some ground with jon, arya, and bran. margaery feels like a hard maybe as well - it’s looking bleak for the tyrells & i don’t think margaery’s family is going to let her move to the north without a good reason. but i also feel like. there’s too many unknowns to technically count her out.

brienne & pod Will be living in the North and they Will be on the guard and That Is That. jeyne & jon don’t seem to have any plans on leaving the North any time soon either.

someone who won't feel threatened by her title

this is a near constant through line in her story - that whoever marries her will want her for her claim first and foremost. it's going to factor into her relationships, specifically about how she's going to have a child. whether she has a secret marriage, longstanding affair, or a public husband, it's going to be someone who is not constantly trying to usurp her power literally or metaphorically.

that means no aegon vi, no sweetrobin, no harry, no littlefucker, no tyrion. tyrion's claim to the westerlands is a competing one with her, and tyrion himself is interested in her title way more than sansa as a person (it's why he doesn't see her escape coming and why he's so bitter over it - the whole time he thought she was a silly girl and had no idea she was plotting to escape and nearly did escape at several points. he thought she was helpless! you can bet your ass he is going to feel threatened by the idea that she does not need his ass). sandor, imo, will also feel threatened by her having such a lofty title, and i cannot see him being capable of any sort of secret marriage. "well they could just marry publicly" she's not publicly marrying a man known to be a child killer. to be completely honest, i think margaery would feel threatened by her title as well.

jon, podrick, brienne, jeyne are all people who would not only not feel threatened, they would be proud, celebrate it, actively fight to keep her in a state of power. theon is imo a maybe - the theon we meet in the beginning would objectively feel threatened by Sansa having a title loftier than his. a theon who has lived through everything he has by the end of the dance is imo much more likely to be happier out of the spotlight. all of them as well would be willing to be frank about how she's going to have a child, and would not mind Sansa saying something like "my children were fathered by a wolf."

someone who shares her romantic sensibilities

listen. she's gonna like, get along with her suitor. someone who won't laugh at her for wanting to be swept off her feet, someone who also craves a more romantic life.

this eliminates, imo, harry, sweetrobin, littlefucker, and sandor, probably aegon vi as well.

brienne, jon, theon, jeyne, and podrick are all romantic types - jon imagines having children named after ned and robb just llike sansa, theon had dreamed as a hostage of marrying sansa and calling ned father, brienne dreams of lofty knightly ideals of protecting the weak, and podrick and jeyne both have stories very much tied to subverting the ideas of a true knight and a damsel in distress.

someone who is an Atypical True Knight

💙✨this is a post about briensa✨💙

true knight/hero from a song themes + marginalized in some way in Westeros = brienne, jon, theon, tyrion. sandor feels relevant here in that he is not a true knight but he clearly wants to be after his encounters with the stark girls and also he doesn't look like one either.

aegon vi could arguably count due to being dornish, so i guess i'll give him a .5 in this category. harry is as typical as they come, and neither margaery nor jeyne have anything that links them narratively to the concept of a true knight or hero from a story (except, i suppose, for jeyne's link to theon). podrick is also fairly typical but again, kinda lowish for a noble so i guess .5, and he also has several scenes where he's expressly linked with being an Atypical True Knight (mainly, the scene where he saves Tyrion during the Battle on the Blackwater).

a True Knight

i simply do not think the lesson sansa is going to “learn” here is that no one will ever love her for who she is and her marriage will be about her claim and nothing more because there are no True Knights left. every time someone is like “she won’t have a romance bc her story is about not needing love” i find it mind boggling because in what world is asoiaf about not needing love, first of all, and second of all, her arc wrt her desires for marriage and love has so clearly been tied to this concept of a True Knight and the idea that a True Knight does not always ~look good~ and that someone who is not a knight may be capable of good and that you can always just Choose To Do Good at any point but you have to Make That Choice, and that is all very different from “not needing love.” Sansa is naive yes but!! Sansa is Dunk sitting there surrounded by strong handsome men in expensive, gorgeous armor and asking if there are any true knights among them-

EXCEPT SOMEONE WILL STEP UP TO THE PLATE.

“a dream of spring” means there will be just a little hope. so help Will Come and they will be a True Knight they just won’t take a form she expects. this is a large part of the reason why i’m on the briensa train. Brienne is The Truest Of True Knights! She serves a King she's in love with who doesn't love her back faithfully, she swears a vow to Sansa's mother after comparing Catelyn's courage to that of a knight's and laments the fate of women who die unremembered in a birthing bed, she's on a noble quest to find Sansa with an assist from The Most Infamous Knight In Westerosi History, she’s the secret descendant of The Other Truest Of True Knights, and I feel it’s very clear from geography, theme, and foreshadowing standpoints that Brienne and Sansa are going to be linking up soon.

I have always felt that the Ashford Tourney Theory is linking Sansa to both Jon and Brienne narratively - Jon for being the dark haired Targaryen Prince defender and Brienne for being the Dunk descendant and True Knight that interrupts the tourney. Not only that, but Jon has that "she wished for a hero to strike him down" "ed, fetch me a block" parallel that I think is really important.

BUT. They're not the only ones with links like this. Theon has the similar link of how life is not a song and is actively grasping for redemption when we last left him. Podrick, like Brienne, is on a True Knight's quest to save Sansas and is discounted as a hero despite having several heroic moments for himself - including actively seeking Brienne out to help with her quest. Tyrion frequently struggles with concepts of morality but is on an absolute downward trajectory.

Who is not tied to these last two concepts nor acts at all like a True Knight? Aegon VI (arguable I suppose), Harry Hardyng, and once again, Littlefucker.

IN SUMMATION

Who doesn't fit any of the critera? Littlefucker, and that's why his ass is grass.

Who fits very little of the criteria? Tyrion (too old, not likely to live in Winterfell, cares too much about her title, on a downward spiral), Sandor (too old, too low born, not a True Knight and not becoming one any time soon, plus Arya will kill him if he tries something), Aegon VI (would not relocate, is not tied to the concept of a True Knight, plus he's doomed), Harry Hardyng (would not relocate, cares too much about titles, is not a true knight nor atypical in way, doesn't seem given to romantic sensibilities).

Who fits most of the criteria? Jeyne Poole and Margaery Tyrell. However there are pretty big plot reasons Margaery won't have any sort of romantic, subtext or otherwise, long lasting relationship with Sansa so even though on paper she fits, I think she's highly unlikely to impossible.

Who fits all of that criteria, ie, close to her age, has an important name (or has a reason why it doesn't matter), and is an Atypical True Knight with a romantic outlook on life with narrative links to Sansa? Brienne of Tarth and Jon Snow, and arguably Theon Greyjoy and Podrick Payne.

Anyways I think Sansa should start a bisexual polycule in the North. Thank you for coming to my ted talk.

#asks #anons #sansa stark #rani attempts meta #briensa #theonsa #jonsa #anti sansan #anti petsa #anti sanrion #book jonsa

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