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aromagni · 4 years

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Aplatonic Masterpost

(I use italics in this post for stuff that is more my commentary/analysis/etc, as opposed to more “factual” summary)

Aplatonic Definitions & Overview:

“Aplatonic” was coined on AVEN in 2012 in a thread here by a homoromantic Ace who expressed being unable to apply the word “love” to their friendships.

The original coining doesn’t come with a particularly precise definition, and there’s been many discussions regarding differing definitions for it. The following are two definitions which are often considered accurate for the term:

Definition 1: Aplatonic is an identity for people who experience little to no platonic attraction such that they rarely experience squishes, or desire to form a friendship with specific people.

Definition 2: Aplatonic is an identity for people who struggle to form platonic relationships of any kind, often due to neurodivergency and/or traumatic experiences.

Another definition which has been attributed with aplatonic, but also disputed as a definition, is this:

Definition 3: an identity for people who do not experience attraction such that they would want a queerplatonic relationship.

This third definition would be more accurate for the term “aqueerplatonic”, but was misattributed to the term aplatonic in the past. However, while this is not an accurate definition for aplatonic, the lines between platonic and queerplatonic attraction can be extremely blurry such that this may be relevant to some aplatonic experiences.

Other notes on Aplatonicism:

Aplatonicism also has an Aplatonic spectrum which includes identities such as demiplatonic and greyplatonic.

Aplatonic is a term generally used by people who are a-spec(Ace or Aro) and/or neurodivergent.

Aplatonic is NOT simply “not having/wanting friends” (it has historically been dismissed as such by exclusionists who mock the term, unfortunately).

Aplatonic can be shortened to “apl”, and thus apples are considered an aplatonic symbol.

(More information and links regarding definitions of aplatonic are below under “Aplatonic Discussions”)

Aplatonic Pride Flags:

[Image Description: aplatonic flag with 4 horizontal stripes which are purple, blue, green, and light yellow/cream from top to bottom]

This was the original aplatonic flag, the oldest surviving link of it is found here, from 2015.

[Image Description: aplatonic flag with 4 horizontal stripes which are black, grey, white, and yellow from top to bottom]

This was an alternate aplatonic flag proposed in 2016 (link here).

(More information on these flags can be found at this link from lgbtq wiki)

Aplatonic Spectrum & Demiplatonic:

Aplatonic Spectrum, or apl-spec, is an umbrella term for people who experience little to no platonic attraction. (AUREA’s definition here)

Aplatonic Spectrum Flags: a masterpost with many aplatonic spectrum identities, their definitions, and their flags.

Demiplatonic Overview: a post I made about my involvement with the term demiplatonic and demiplatonic flags

Experiences Feeling Demiplatonic: a post I did for carnival of aros about why I feel demiplatonic

Aplatonic Discussions:

Over the years, there’s been a lot of misinformation and general lack of clear accurate information regarding this term, such that there’s been many discussions regarding the definition. As someone who is somewhat younger to the community I probably also contributed to misinformation at times due to the sources I was looking at being themselves inaccurate.

The above definitions are what I can best summarize from the posts I have seen discussing it but might be influenced by my own experiences and I don’t want to claim expertise and argue those as objective fact, considering how much differing discussion there has been.So, here’s links to various discussions regarding the definitions & misinformation around this term, such that you can assess other sources for yourself.

Links regarding aplatonic definitions & History:

Link 1: “Definitions of Aplatonic” thread on Arocalypse Forums

Link 2: Tumblr thread refuting “not wanting qpr” definition, with many people adding to discussion.

Link 3: Tumblr thread refuting the “not wanting/having friends” definition that originated by exclusionists, and other misinformation on the term.

Link 4: an older Tumblr post with an infographic of aplatonic, with more recent comments by the OP about inaccuracies.

Link 5: another tumblr thread about the definition of aplatonic and ways people originally used it, and touches on why some people are uncomfortable with non a-spec people using it due to misuse by exclusionists.

Link 6: tumblr thread about aplatonic definitions and it’s usage relating to the a-spec community along with neurodivergency and traumatic experiences.

Link 7: tumblr post discussing who can “use” the term aplatonic and discusses history of how meaning has warped over time.

Link 8: Tumblr short masterpost regarding aplatonic as a descriptor term used by aro community.

Related Terminology:

There are various terms that have similar but different meanings to aplatonic (which also come up in the linked discussion posts. The word being defined has hyperlink to a source.)

Nonamorous: a lifestyle choice or relationship style that does not include intimate, long-term partnerships, whether romantic or platonic.

Nonpartnering: not wanting partnered relationships; this is similar to nonamorous but coined in response to some people being uncomfortable with the implied opposite of nonamorous because of romance repulsion.

Aqueerplatonic: not experiencing queerplatonic attraction.

Loveless (aro): a recent term for aros who do not use “love” to describe their experiences, often due to it’s associations with romance and enforcement of amatonormativity. (Sources don’t show a particularly precise definition for this one)

(Additional reading regarding these terms:

-This is one of posts linked before, but I had added onto it with distinctions I perceive between these words and aplatonic

-This is another post discussing nonamory and queerplatonic, and pressures within the community to feel certain ways)

Aplatonic Tags:

(the links are from searching tag & filtering for most recent)

#Aplatonic (general aplatonic tag)

#Actually Aplatonic (aplatonic tag that’s more specific to prevent random & troll posts, so is more of the good quality posts)

#aplatonic spectrum (more specific to aplatonic spectrum stuff)

#apl spec (alternate tag with more specific to aplatonic spectrum stuff though doesn’t have many posts)

#apl positivity (tag for aplatonic positivity stuff or other positivity that is relevant for aplatonic people, I encourage people to use this more)

#demiplatonic (tag for more specifically demiplatonic stuff.... I use this a lot on my blog. Tag does have some more troll/mocking posts unfortunately though, so bewarned)

#nonamorous (not aplatonic specific but generally tends to have more positivity and other discussions of adjacent topics regarding not having platonic partnerships and stuff)

#loveless aro (another aplatonic-adjacent topic regarding kind of opting out of the concept of love as an obligation/universal human concept)

Aplatonic Blog recs:

These are a mix of blogs I see actively involved in discussions on aplatonic and who I’ve taken notice of from following the aplatonic tag.

@aplatonicsafespace (aplatonic specific blog which answered asks a lot but seems currently inactive)

@aroarolibrary (Is a general aro blog which has talked about aplatonic for a long time and has more historical information on the term. I went through eir aplatonic tag and found many of the posts I linked under aplatonic discussions)

@apl-h (aplatonic focused blog)

@aromagni (my aro blog, I am demiplatonic so I talk more about apl-spec stuff and have organized tags for things you can search)

@askanaroace (an aroace ask blog ran by an aplatonic person who’s answered asks about aplatonic stuff before)

@kyanitedragon (is a general blog that has posted apl headcanons & aesthetics/pride stuff fairly often)

[Feel free to add on to this post with more aplatonic blog recs or other resources!]

#aplatonic #actually aplatonic #aplatonic spectrum #demiplatonic #aplspec #apl positivity #aromantic #actually aromantic #nonamorous #loveless aro #aspec #aspec community #aro community #masterpost #aro history #pride flags #my post #magni’s thoughts #long post

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aroacepagans · 5 years

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Alright so the survey on aro community needs from this post got 30 responses, and with it all being long form I don’t expect to get many more.

So what I’m going to do is give summaries of common themes and answers above the cut for people who don’t want to read through a bunch of text, and then I’m going to put individual answers under the cut for folks who are interested. Please note that these are all anonymous survey answers, and they do not necessarily reflect my opinions. I encourage people to have/start discussions around the topics brought up here so that we can work towards having a mutually fulfilling and cohesive community.

Summary:

What are the community needs of alloaros?

More recognition and visibility both within and outside of the aspec community, aro specific spaces where no one will assume that they’re ace and where they don’t have to be bombarded by ace content, safe spaces to talk about their experiences with sexual attraction, and a wider community acknowledgment that ace and aro don’t mean the same thing.

What are the community needs of aroaces?

Separate aroace spaces, space and language that allows them to express the interconnectedness of their aro and ace identities, a recognition of the diversity of aroace experiences including the experiences of oriented aroaces and aro leaning aroaces, spaces devoid of both sex and romance, and less infighting between the aro and ace communities.

What are the community needs of non-SAM aros?

New language that doesn’t enforce the use of SAM as a norm and that doesn’t enforce a SAM/ non-SAM binary, more recognition of aromantic as one whole identity, more inclusion of their identity within aro spaces, and having the ability to label themselves as aro without being asked what their other identity is .

What are the community needs of greyro/ aro-spec folks?

Specific spaces where they can talk about aromantic attraction, more recognition and visibility both within and outside of the aspec community, more greyro/aro-spec specific resources and content, and a larger platform within the aspec community to discuss their experiences.

What are the shared needs of these different subgroups within the aro and arospec community?

Increased visibility, spaces free from amatonormativity, safe and unbiased shared spaces for all members of the aro/aro-spec community, separation and distinction from alloaces, more in-person spaces, and a building of understanding and acceptance between the different community subgroups.

How do we meet all of these needs within an online space?

Better and more formalized tagging systems, creating more forums, chats, tags, etc, that are specific to different aro and arospec subgroups, creating more variety in online aro spaces generally, giving equal online spaces and platforms to all aro subgroups, and having open and polite community discussion about our needs within online aro spaces.

How do we meet all of these needs within an in-person space?

Use inclusive language, allow for smaller sub-communities within larger aro and aspec groups, provide resources for small, lesser known identities both within groups and at pride, push for more aro inclusion in wider queer spaces and create safe and respectful discussion spaces where everyone can voice their needs

How do we reconcile conflicting needs?

Civil and open discussions, try to find solutions instead of just arguing, and create separate spaces for subgroups when needed while continuing to maintain larger general spaces for discuison and community building.

Individual answers:

What are the community needs of alloaros?

1. A space to be aromantic but not asexual. As an alloaro myself, I struggle to relate to many aroaces - and the ace community in general - because my sexuality is a big part of my identity, right along side being aromantic. I want a place where I can discuss how being aromantic affects my sexual attraction without having to focus on one or the other

2. A place to talk about sexual attraction without being ridiculed or being called a player. Advice about how to go about getting a relationship that fulfills their needs without be demeaned to expected to evolve into romantic.

3. I'm not alloaro, so I don't feel comfortable speculating on their behalf, but from the perspective of an outsider looking in, they need more visibility, both within and outside of the aro community.

4. Recognition mostly, acknowledging that asexuals can’t keep putting their stuff into the aro tag, the fact that romance repulsed allo aros exist and are uncomfortable with allo aces putting their stuff everywhere

5. Aro specific places. I personally don't have to talk about sexuality in general areas but aroallo specific places/sites/tags for this would be great.

6. Dismantling the assumption that aromanticism is inherently linked to asexuality (even if it is for some individuals, it's most definitely not a hard rule that applies to everybody else), moving away from seeing aroace as the "default" aro experience and in fact not assuming one's other possible identities because they identify as aro at all

7. Not one myself - probably spaces to find safe hook-ups if desired, to talk amongst themselves

8. Less ace experience talking over aro experience. Also, not conflating the two identities as one.

9. I often feel ashamed of the allo part of my identity. I think more visibility would help a lot. It also took a very long time for me to even consider being aro because I was under the impression I had to be ace so separating those ideas would help.

10. As I’m not allo aro I can’t really say, but a lot of them have been speaking out and saying that they don’t want aro to automatically mean aroace, and that aromantism is not a sub sexuality is asexual

11. To talk about alloaro specific issues freely, and to not be assumed to be ace or to have to leave our sexualities at the door when entering aro spaces

12. Increased awareness that one can experience sexual attraction without romantic attraction

13. To be respected and given a aro-specific space/platform to discuss their needs/issues/etc

14. A space to not be: assumed ace, confused with aces, forced to avoid talking about how they want sex without romance and how that sexual desire affects them, etc. A space where they can find others like them to help them understand themselves better and make friendships and feel less isolated.

15. i'm not alloaro so i'm not going to speak for them but like. acknowledging that aro does not mean ace and allowing the aro community to exist outside of the ace umbrella is super important

What are the community needs of aroaces?

1. Recognition that aro is an equal and completely it's own community but that the community doesn't have to be completely separated.

2. Separated areas where uniquely aroace experiences can be discussed

3. Less infighting between the aromantic and asexual communities. You can and should call out hurtful behavior by the other community, but going into isolation mode leaves aroaces stuck in the middle of two sides retreating in on themselves. Aroace issues are aro issues! Aroace issues are ace issues!

4. Acknowledging that we occupy a unique overlap between the aro and ace communities that no other perioriented people experience (if we can even call ourselves perioriented, since we're basically forced to straddle two communities or else have one aspect of our identity erased); having spaces where we can talk about our aroaceness without having to separate out our identities, when we often can't

5. Well if you mean just "aroaces" who use it as one word for a convergent orientation they need a place where mixing up and "confusing" an experience as related to their aromanticism when it's more about being ace doesn't get aros yelling at them in the Tumblr tags that they shouldn't tag it aromanticism and they're stupid/horrible hurting aros when they do. They need a place where they can talk about their experiences as very interconnected and inseparable without offending people for whom they are separable. They likely mostly want to learn from allo aros and allo aces what it feels like to be allo so they better understand more of society and don't want to feel alienated from either community of aces as a whole or aros as a whole.

6. I just want some safe wholesome space. Since I joined the aro community on tumblr couple years back, it just feels like the community is defined by discourse, negativity, fights, petty disagreements and drama. I understand, the community is still in diapers and we need to figure ourselves out, but I feel like we've lost the way. Do we need to react to every troll and hater? Is seriously someone offended by them? Why do we legitimise and acknowledge them as part of the discussion? It's like giving an equal platform to scientists and flat earthers. Is this really how we want to be? If you try to think away all the drama stuff, what's left? Is there anything left at all?

7. The freedom to find their place in both ace/aro spaces and for people to allow them to use/not use the SAM as they see fit. Perhaps giving non-SAM aroaces some new language?

8. More community for aro aces. As an aro ace myself I always have to divide time between the aro and ace communities

9. a space where both identities are recognised as equally important - a space where aro identity isn't seen as a subset of ace identity, or deriving from it - somewhere they can express romance and sex repulsion or lack of thereof

10. A term that isn’t AroAce. Something that is not just a combination of aromantic and asexual. But to also not be a sub set of allo aro or allo ace. We shouldn’t need to choose which identity is more important and we shouldn’t have to use the SAM.

11. I think to recognize that there is an aroace spectrum. You can be mlm, wlw, nblnb, etc and still be aroace

12. Content that doesn't rely on "but we still experience x attraction!", tips for living alone/single, also tips for finding/being in a committed relationship such as a qpr (I personally want a relationship but I have no idea how to even start looking for one)

13. I am not aroace so my opinion should not carry as much weight as others but from what my aroace friends irl say, I think we need more recognition for oriented aroaces

14. To be able to talk about the intersection of our identities and how we are uniquely impacted by aphobia

15. Understanding that not all aroaces feel that their two identifiers hold equal value to them (e.g. aromantic as a primary identity with asexuality as a secondary identity). Letting people focus on the one identity over the other is not an exclusion on the other identity; their preferred identity is just more meaningful in their lifes and/or personal growth.

16. Available spaces that are not only sexualised spaces (eg clubs), options to avoid discussion of sex, being hit on if desired (colour code in mixed irl aro-spaces?)

17. Aroaces need a space where they don't have to pick between their aro and ace identities, as well as a space where sex and/or romance repulsed aroaces dont have to deal with romance or sex in any way

18. Idk, not aro ace but I would say recognition as well

19. Full disclosure, I've mostly stopped participating in the ace/aro communities of late (though I haven't stopped reading it) because it felt like every time aroaces spoke up, we were brushed aside or shrugged off because we were the "privileged" ones (in both aro and ace circles). That means I'm a bit out of the loop. I identify far more with my aromanticism than my asexuality, but I've definitely been made to feel that I'm somehow a negative influence on both communities because I technically belong to both. I feel bad enough discussing my identity outside of the ace and aro communities, particularly among queer friends - it feels like when I bring up aroace experiences, it's like I've doused the fire of whatever conversation I was in, and I don't feel like replicating that feeling by trying to talk about it on the 'net, too. So, I guess we mostly need acceptance. We need spaces where alloaros can talk about their experiences without feeling bombarded by aroaces, we need spaces where aroaces can talk about our experiences without feeling like we're marauding on allo experiences, and we need places where both sides can talk about our aromanticism as one community. We as aroaces need to do better about determining when to discuss our issues, and making sure we're discussing them within the communities they're relevant to, as well. I have a pretty solid handle on which aspects of my identity are informed by my aromanticism and which are informed by my asexuality, but that's not a universal experience. Plenty of people have issues separating the two, especially when they're missing both sexual AND romantic attraction. It's hard to determine which of those "missing" pieces are supposed to fit where, and it's important to understand and find a place for these people to post, as well. But ultimately there needs to be more acceptance and openess all around. And I have no idea how we can do all of this.

20. Often aro and ace-ness are inseparable to aroaceness and thus unless something is very specifically about sexual attraction aroaces need to have a sense of flexibility

21. Honestly, as a greyro-ace myself, I feel like aroaces are sort of the face of the community

What are the community needs of non-SAM aros?

1. it's all in the name 'non-SAM' for me. that it is assumed everyone has multiple attractions and/or labels themselves by them. it's use rather implies that the words aro or aromantic or aro-spec /don’t/ automatically include us. it's obviously a perspective change needed here, maybe a new term or descriptor as well? i don’t kno really but i hate the specification of — the expected /need to/ specify — non-SAM.

2. I'm gonna skip the other Qs b/c I don't think I can speak for SAM-using folks. Anyway, as a non-SAM aro I think some of my big things are 1. Recognizing that aromanticism can be its own identity without being split or modified 2. Ending the default assumption that I am ace, identify as ace, and know what the heck ace people need in their communities. 3. Recognizing and respecting aros who don't want or desire QPPs and making it clear that non-QPP friendships and family are not only as good as but can be just as fulfilling as other relationship models. 4. Including non-SAM people as part of our basic and default definitions of asexuality and aromanticism. 5. Making space for discussions of why microlabels don't work for everyone and why the SAM doesn't work for everyone 6. Making an active effort to make aspec spaces more accessible to folks who have just learned about aspec stuff, folks with cognitive and language disabilities, and non-native English speakers. And, like on a broad note, my autism makes it difficult for me to break my identity into tiny pieces. The aspec community's focus on microlabels and the split attraction model, plus the fact that the people participating in discussions often seem to be younger than me and just barely in the process of developing an identity that I've been comfortable in for many years, makes me feel isolated and alienated from the community. When I do participate, the complex and high-entry-level jargon that some members of the community use make it difficult for me to participate in community interactions, which leaves me feeling even more alienated.

3. again, not speaking over other people, but it's important to recognize that aromanticism is a full identity on its own and doesn't inherently require use of the SAM. breaking down the alloaro/aroace binary

4. It seems they want to just talk about aromanticism without having people judge which type of aro they are for if their views count etc. They want more than anyone for aces to be better allies when it comes to LGBTQIA arguing where the A doesn't mean Ally and rather asexual that there needs to be room for the queerness of aromanticism in the LGBTQ+ umbrella. They more than anyone will always need aromantic specific everything - recognition, representation, communities, where no one expects you to also be something else

5. For myself, mostly non binary language and less assumptions that all aros ID with the SAM would be helpful, also acknowlement that non-SAM aros may have differing experiences as a group. This sounds small, and honestly it is, but the unintended consequence of binary language addressing only 'aroaces' and 'aroallos' that I've seen is that spaces can become increasingly polarized between different split attractions and then I've just kind of slipped through the gap in between. It's just my personal experience, of course, but honestly just including this box in the survey is a great start.

6. In-space focuses and new language.

7. More awareness

8. A space where we don't feel the need to express ace/allo identity alongside our aro identity

9. To not get caught in an alloaro Vs aroace war that they can't pick a side for, is probably one.

10. We just need ppl to stop kind of adding us in a sentence in their post or say 'not everyone uses the sam' I wish we could have more discussions on why the sam doesn't really work for us or how we're left out from the community as a whole.

11. Acceptance of just being aro. Aromantic is a whole independent identity despite where it was born.

12. A space to talk about how the ace community has harmed them or made them feel unwelcome without aroaces or alloaces acting like it is an insult

What are the community needs of greyro/ aro-spec folks?

1. Understanding that not everyone is completely aro or that their romantic attraction levels change.

2. providing spaces to talk about experiences with romantic attraction/relationships

3. I'm in this group. I need to feel like it's ok that aromanticism stay a spectrum and some aros are "more ace" (I'm sex-averse etc) than clearly aro (I might choose to date) and to not feel like people are accusing me of being alloromantic when I don't feel alloro. If people make sweeping statements about aros that don't include me or sweeping statements about alloros that do cover my experiences, it is hurtful and invalidating of my identity. And it even can make me doubt myself which isn't fair after I've spent years figuring myself out. I want a happy community that can get along and not hate aces preemptively before any of the select aces they're talking to did anything wrong. Who can forgive aces who make mistakes but who want to be better allies. I'm an ace and an aro-spec person. I'm an ally to aros who aren't gray but all forms of people being an ally takes some learning curve. Understanding that can go a long way.20 hours agoMore awareness21 hours agomore discussion about our orientations, more material for us in general, people getting a platform to share heir experiences. i feel kind of isolated in the aro community because there isnt a lot thats directed at us and our experiences that are neither really aro nor alloa day ago- a space where romance repulsion and simultaneous lack of thereof is acknowledgeda day agoIdk I'm not on the speca day agoMore content for the smaller identities under the spectrum umbrella would probably be nice, also asexuality being jammed together with aromanticism can be annoying sometimes especially if the post only really has to do with one or the other. Visibility in stories and media and such would also be greata day agoacknowledge that not everyone is strictly ace or allo. Like alloaros, allow us to talk about whether we want romantic partners or how our experiences differ from non grayro aros.a day agoN/aa day agoTheir own voice for their complicated feelings about being on the aromantic spectrum.a day agoNot greyro, likewise not my place to comment.2 days agoThe aro community is actually already pretty good about this, but it's cool that romance still happens for some of us and that out voices are allowed to at the very least be on our own space without criticism.2 days agoUh2 days agoArospecs need to be able to talk about their approach to romance, as it is very often very separate from the way allo people experience romantic attraction2 days agoI think both grey and demi aromanticism and asexuality in general need more recognition 2 days ago

4. More awareness

5. more discussion about our orientations, more material for us in general, people getting a platform to share heir experiences. i feel kind of isolated in the aro community because there isnt a lot thats directed at us and our experiences that are neither really aro nor allo

6. a space where romance repulsion and simultaneous lack of thereof is acknowledged

7. More content for the smaller identities under the spectrum umbrella would probably be nice, also asexuality being jammed together with aromanticism can be annoying sometimes especially if the post only really has to do with one or the other. Visibility in stories and media and such would also be great

8. acknowledge that not everyone is strictly ace or allo. Like alloaros, allow us to talk about whether we want romantic partners or how our experiences differ from non grayro aros.

9. Their own voice for their complicated feelings about being on the aromantic spectrum.

10. The aro community is actually already pretty good about this, but it's cool that romance still happens for some of us and that out voices are allowed to at the very least be on our own space without criticism.

11. Arospecs need to be able to talk about their approach to romance, as it is very often very separate from the way allo people experience romantic attraction

12. I think both grey and demi aromanticism and asexuality in general need more recognition

What are the shared needs of these different subgroups within the aro and arospec community?

1. what we need across the board is recognition, compassion, and dissemination.

2. More aro recognition and its own and equal but not completely seperate from ace (for aro aces) community.

3. To discuss their experiences with the lack of romantic attraction and amatonormativity, amongst other General arospec issues

4. safe spaces to talk about being aro and all of the ways it intersects with other aspects of our identity; representation and advocacy

5. Neutral aro-spec spaces where all intersectionality is equally accepted but also not the main topic or qualifier; recognition of a broad range of experiences; recognition of specific language and acknowledgment of their existences; facilitated ability to speak about more specific or 'niche' topics

6. Recognition in queer spaces and healthy dialogue about language.

7. i think we all want a platform for our specific topics and we want recognition, but also community

8. A space where romance repulsion is acknowledged and respected - a space where aro identity is prioritised, no matter what other identities go along with it, if there are any at all

9. To move forward in our activism to make aromanticism more well known and more accepted in society?? And to have a safe place to go after a day of dealing with amatonormativity and aphobia.

10. To make ourselves exist outside the definition of asexual

11. I think all the communities/identities need to recognize that there is a problem. If we unite with each other and have so much love and understanding in the form of unity, I think a lot of these problems will resolve themselves.

12. Visibility?

13. make sure we understand each other's experiences and what makes everyone feel included / excluded. We need to make that we sure we own up if we excluded someone, and that we try to fix it.

14. Visibility is my greatest concern for all aspects of aro and arospec problems.

15. Aces need to stop speaking for them. Aro-spec and aro people can speak for themselves on their own experiences. Additionally, aroaces need to focus more on the aro identity (whether it's primary or secondary to them) when it involves aro discourse. They can have a focus on their ace identity only with the exception that both identities are heavily tied to each other and both identities are discussed. Again, this is specifically for aro-specific discourse.

16. Discussion of amatonormativity, experiences with pressure to find partners

17. A creation of a unified aro space that includes and supports *anybody* identifying as aro or arospec

18. The validity of aro identities shaping gender identities. I believe I'm nb in large part because of aromanticism.

19. All four of these groups need visibility and more in person communities

20. Allo aces need to stop taking over everything is the overarching problem when you think about it, they also need to stop throwing aros under the bus

21. We ALL need more visibility. We need voices that aren't reliant on the ace community to speak for us as an afterthought, and I say that AS an ace. We need to talk about aromanticism as a whole. And we need to do so proudly and informatively. I've noticed that it's really, really hard to talk about aromanticism without making it sound like I'm demonizing romantic attraction, and that's a dangerous treading ground within the queer community. There's been a lot of negatively portraying queer romantice from outside of the community, and we need to make sure we're not stepping on those land mines, but we do need our voices heard on aromanticism and amatonormativity, too. Also, we need to hold fast to QPRs and squishes (and, imo, aplatonic) and not let those ideas get swept out with the discourse trash. We also need to support both the aros who want and have QPRs, and the aros who want nothing to do with them. I see a lot of support for aros in various forms of non-romantic (and sometimes romantic) relationships, but very little for aros who choose to fly solo, and what that means in a world that expects you to pair up.

22. I do think we need to be more openly vocal about our separateness from the ace community, though it seems to be tearing aroaces apart at the seams

23. A space to discuss aromanticism - however people experience it - in a space were others are opening and welcoming. Possibly also older members of the community giving advice to newer members who are struggling to come to terms with their aromanticism in a society so focused on romance

24. I feel like a lot of aros are frustrated with their experiences being mislabeled as ace experiences, or having the assumption that aro and ace experiences are basically the same

How do we meet all of these needs within an online space?

1. make sure you aren’t in an echochamber? share/create content for orientations other than your own? be kind? remember that when we're fighting it's kind of over scraps and we deserve better? i'm not sure honestly but i really think a lot of this comes down to perspective. plus remember the block button exists lol. i'm talking about things all on a personal, individual level and i don’t kno how to effect anything otherwise. how about a content creation week where the subject is an orientation other than your own? with emphasis on asking questions to get shit right. it'd be a learning experience that builds community. i can't think of a thing to answer this question on a larger scale ://

2. We accept that some people see their aro and/or ace identitie/s seperate and some don't. Also that some only have one of these identities. And we spread aro recognition.

3. Equal education and resources for all parts of the aro spectrum

4. Cut it out with the pack instinct. Aces and aros snarling at eachother really freaks out aroaces.

5. it's impossible to curate a monolithic online space that will meet the needs of every single member of the aro community. what's important is acknowledging your own biases and hearing out the perspectives of others who differ from you, and not generalizing your own experiences/needs/perspectives to the community as a whole. we can create more subgroup-oriented spaces all we want, but at the end of the day we're still part of the same larger aro community and in order for that to work out the best thing we can do is just listen to each other.

6. Appropriate tagging has been brought up before, perhaps a reworked umbrella tag system? Again more neutral spaces; appropriate tagging for repulsion and aversion and on the other end acceptance of a variety of topics (i.e. some people will be talking about sex and that's good and healthy, as long as it's tagged there shouldn't be an issue with that); more specific and intersectional spaces; less verbal conflation of ace and aro though I think that's been getting better? Then again a big problem is the aroace split between two communities. I unfortunately do not have any ideas for that

7. Provide and Aro-specific online space similar to AVEN.

8. trying to give a more equal focus to different subgroups maybe? coming together and caring about those whose experiences are slightly different from ours and giving them a platform too. encouraging diversity

9. i'm not sure but it starts by making spaces outside of discourse. blogs like "aro-soulmate-project" are especially important to me because they address not only intra and outside community issues, but because they create aro identity at the same time people interact.

10. Idk put everything in the tag it belongs in (aroace content in aro, ace and aroace tags, general aro content in aro aroace and alloaro tags, and alloaro content in aro and alloaro tags, etc) and stop harassing each other. Groups might benefit from ace chat channels and allosexual chat channels? But idk if that's too divisive in some opinions

11. Group chats? More posts combining the communities? Spreading the love to everybody everywhere!

12. Open discussion

13. Since aro communities are extremely small and have been largely ignored-even by the a-spec community-it is up to the a-spec (yes, this includes alloaces) community to be more inclusive when making a-spec positive/information posts while also making more efforts to reblog diverse aro discourse so that aro people get a chance to speak.

14. Different tags/ smaller chatrooms. Probably tags people can follow or block

15. Better tagging systems, breaking down assumptions and not projecting one's one experience of identity onto everybody else who happens to be aro, creating sub-communities that are specifically suited for a specific subgroup's needs while still being united as the general aro community

16. On tumblr, proper tagging of content.

17. I think something that would actually help is like an aroace specific forum. We have arocalypse but that seems to be mostly alloaros and I want a forum where I can be aroace and not have to pick sides

18. Tag things accordingly

19. As I mentioned before, I'm not really involved in community discussions beyond reading about them, but coming up with a standard tagging system seems to be a start.

20. Often these needs have been met, though there could be a better job of say tagging 'romance' for repulsed aros and we need to open up space for both romo repulsed and positive to speak at the same time

21. I don't know. The internet is too big to manage. I think of the internet as more of many different spaces

How do we meet all of these needs within an in-person space?

1. Represent everyone, let people speak, let people correct you, aim to make friends, remember that we're all under the A together.

2. Same as above

3. Stop generalizing and start being inclusive with language. There’s a big difference.

4. Listen, if no one ever walks up to me and says "Hey, [name], you're ace right?" just because I told them I was aro and they forgot, I will be happy.

5. i suppose the same rules apply. listening, providing spaces for subgroups to talk about specific issues, etc.

6. Similar to previous answer, but spaces advertised as neutral or with multiple groups need to be more explicit in inclusion of a variety of experiences and topics. There are ways to manage this so everyone is in understanding and comfortable, namely just good communication (hence being explicit) and systems of feedback

7. Queer spaces just need to be informed that the usual a-spec narrative is not the only one. But this will change as people share their experiences.

8. more aro awareness alongside but also differentiated from ace awareness, and all this coupled with a focus on acceptance rather than identification

9. A case by case basis? I guess? It'd depend on the scope of the space

10. Booths at Pride recognizing the lesser known orientations. Doesn’t even have to be booths! Pins, stickers, t-shirts work just fine. Maybe a logo for a-spec, aro-spec, and aroace staying that we are all united.

11. have info that includes all of us eg. pamphlets don't have the ace flag everywhere and acknowledge that their are aspecs who experience romantic or sexual attraction, and that not everyone uses the sam.

12. I have only come across one aspec space in-person but it is in the form of a discussion group and everyone is allo ace so I feel extremely unwelcome. I wish there were more resources about aromanticism I could bring to these groups.

13. For one: language is important. Renaming everything to a-spec meetups/groups instead of ace meetups/groups makes the other identity more welcomed and higher possibilities of growing the community. Again, there are more aces out there than aros at the moment, so it is up to those ace groups to make it more inclusive to all a-spec people. We're a community in this together wheter you feel a certain identity or not. That's what being Queer's all about.

14. Create an aro-space first... Then events for sub-groups only where they can talk amongst themselves but also community events

15. Have a large variety of arospec spaces to choose from so that everyone can have their needs met

16. Talk about all aspects, let people voice their experiences and find common ground

17. I don't participate in in-person communities. Partly because I'm not out to more than just a few friends, and partly because I wouldn't want to go to one and be the stereotypical aroace. I feel both far too representative of both the aro and ace communities, and also not part of either. And thanks to the discourse, I'm not convinced I'd be welcome at a queer meetup at all. In addition, I've already mentioned before that just bringing up my experiences as either an ace or an aro tends to be a conversation-killer. So, I guess it rolls back around to visibility. Making others aware of our existence so that when aro experiences DO come up in in-person conversations, we can avoid the uncomfortable, awkward silences that follow. And I think that can only be done by talking about them.

18. I'll eat my hat the day that I manage to find a sizable in-person space for aces or aros

How do we reconcile conflicting needs?

1. I believe this question is far too subjective to each instance that has and will pop up. Which is no help unfortunately.

2. We accept that sometimes someone needs these needs and someone else needs other needs. Also we ask what people's needs are before we assume their needs.

3. By talking out our issues civilly and talking about what bothers us so we can accommodate and adapt as needed if needed, and filter out people who just make the community toxic.

4. Live and let live. Talk it out. Find a solution rather than growing increasingly angry. Literally anything that’s not cocooning away in indignation, we are supposed to be a community.

5. i don't think our needs actually conflict, for the most part. with the exception of greyro/arospec folks needing space to talk about romance and romance repulsed folks needing to get away from it. but that can be solved by tagging things (at least in the case of online spaces). i think a lot of our perceived conflict comes from the conflation of different issues. for example, giving alloaros room to exist apart from asexuality and giving aroaces room to navigate that awkward space in between aren't inherently mutually exclusive. i recognize that striking that sort of balance is easier said than done, but i think if it were easy we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. we're a diverse population and our needs are ALWAYS going to differ. but we're also always going to overlap in a lot of ways, which is why the aro community exists to begin with.

6. Imagine you have a spoiled child. You can do everything in your power to give them what they need. Do you think it will be ever enough? Oh, but what's worse, by concentrating on the spoiled child, you completely forgot you have a second one, starving in the corner.

7. Give each person a choice in the language they use and don't force anyone into an identity/stereotype of aspec experience that doesn't fit. Just listen to people.

8. By giving space for both and working out compromises or plans of action

9. Definitely not fuckin argue for weeks and attack one another, discourse only fragments our tiny movement

10. Set up a time for when allo aro can talk about their experience and the way their identities interact. This lets aroace choose whether they want to come or not. The usual meeting should be a time where any aroace, allo aro, and non-sam using aro can talk about being aro. Or for aros to just meet and interact.

11. a group discussion where everyone can share their experiences but also safe spaces for aroaces / alloaces / nonsam aros /grayros to talk so ppl can discuss if someone hurt them or made them feel excluded in the group discussion and so they can talk about things that are specific to their smaller communities

12. Open discussion and properly tagging things

13. Aro people have been patient. Ace and ace-spec people need to recognize that their exclusive behaviors are mirroring the same horrible mentality that exclusionists in the LGBT+ have. Also recognize that ignoring (or consistently forgetting) the identity is a form of the excluding that identity in regards to posts that are suppose to be a-spec/Queer/LGBTIA+ positive/informative.

14. Respect and communication, separate spaces when necessary

15. Creating sub-communities that can prioritize a specific group's needs in that space while not conflicting with the general aro community.

16. Idk like listen to eachother?

17. The people who have a problem avoid? Idk

18. honestly don't know. I absolutely understand the frustrations of alloaros getting ace posts in the aro tags, and I understand the frustrations of aroaces posting their experiences and being told those tags don't belong. I think the ace community as a whole needs to be made aware that the aro tag is not a dumping ground for ace-specific posts, and that if they want to include support and positivity and include the aro tag, then the post needs to INCLUDE US. I think a lot of frustration on all sides right now is that aromanticism comes off as asexuality's afterthought, and I don't think any of us as aros feel that way. I don't think we need a full break from the ace community, and I think we need to stop blaming aroaces when we make relevant posts to the aro tag, since I suspect quite a bit of this issue is from people who legitimately don't realize that aro tags are not the same as ace tags (i.e. ace positivity blogs that post something relevant to ace experiences and think they're being inclusive by "including" aros, because "we're all aspec, just swap out the 'sexual attraction' for 'romantic attraction'!"). But I, as an ace, am of the opinion that the ace community as a whole needs a solid kick in the pants to get them to work with us on cleaning up the tags and acknowledging that aros aren't just aces with a word swap, that we have our own significantly different concerns and ways to navigate the world that aces can't understand. But here's the problem, too. The ace community is one of the larger "aro" voices right now because the aro community is really quiet. Yes, we have our voices, but if you go looking for ace spaces, you find them. You find them in spades. You go looking for aro spaces? You have to dig. You almost have to know what you're looking for before you can find it. I see aros submitting asks on ace blogs, asking where to go to find aro-specific blogs, and there's always only a handful of suggestions. I think a lot of the reason aroaces seem so visible is because we -are- in the ace spaces, talking, and the ace spaces are big. The aromantic community's biggest priority right now is to grow and be heard.

19. fuck idk tbh the most we can really do is post about it and hope people see and listen

#aromantic #alloaro #aroace #arospec #greyro #greyromantic #non-sam aro #aro #long post #this ace blabbers #Community Discussion

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spnfanficpond · 5 years

Text

February 2019 Pond LiveChat Recap

We had a great time chatting today with @impala-dreamer!! Thank you so much, Beka, for joining us!

We talked about self-publishing through Amazon, how to do it, what the benefits are, and the challenges to making a finished product. A rundown of the chat, as well as some general Pond news, is below the cut!

Q: What sort of music do you listen to when you write?

Beka: Oh, uh... Well, Actually, I have a lot of playlists on youtube. So it depends. I have a hardcore smut list that is just music that gets my hips moving... then a romance thing which is feely stuff. A "Deanspiration" list that oddly has zero Zepplin in it, just stuff that reminds me of him or gives me ideas. Sometimes I hear a song and it instantly snaps an idea. I write to music a lot.

Q: For everyone, do you reblog everything you read or do you think likes have the same “power” behind them?

Beka: No. If I read it, I reblog, unless it’s iffy. Iffy means, I read it, but wasn’t up my alley or I think it would be too triggering for people. I avoid those types of fics, anyway.

@mrswhozeewhatsis: There is a very small percentage of things I read that I won't reblog, but then, I haven't really read them, I've noped out for one reason or another. Usually grammar/formatting or content, not writing style, to be clear.

@girl-with-a-fandom-fettish: I guess one reason I suck at reblogging is a lot of the stuff I read has nothing to do with what is currently reblogged on my blog and that just doesn't match in my very matchy brain...is that just me?

@mrswhozeewhatsis: I believe that everyone should be able to put on their blog what they want. Some folks see their blog as a collection like in a museum. Some folks, like me, see it as more of a news feed. Collectors are less likely to reblog because they're carefully curating their blog. My advice to collectors is to then make a side blog where you can reblog the things you don't want to collect.

Q: What’s the biggest challenge you find in writing?

Beka: I think the biggest challenge for me is writing in the moment. I can't write if it's not flowing, and sometimes I try to force myself just to get the story out bc i fear i'm letting people down by not posting enough? But it’s not good when I do that, so I have to let myself go with the story that's with me at the moment. Sometimes it's two at once, like today. lol. Also, Sam is hard. (heheh no really, he is. also he is. but pg13)

Q: There are so many questions to about this process!

Beka: I do really get asked about it a lot, and it's really not that hard once you do it. It's annoying to navigate and decide what you want to do, but it really is awesome and not too frustrating. Amazon is really great because they do have an extensive help section AND message boards so you can ask and talk to other self publishers so it's like having someone with you.

Q: You said you chose to publish through Amazon. Out of curiosity, were there any other ways you heard about or considered before you settled on Amazon, and if so, was there a specific reason you didn't use them?

Beka: I'm basically a Google fanatic, so when I decided to do this, I had no idea what I was doing so basically I goggled "How to self publish a book" and there were THOUSANDS of sites thrown at me. I honestly can't remember the other sites I looked at, but it basically came down to amazon was a company name I knew, I trusted, and had the best help and resources. And I have a kindle, so I figured that was easiest. I think I only looked into one or two others but I can't remember what they were. Amazon just stood out. I did read up on like actually doing it yourself like through a book binder and all that and it was SOOOO much work this was just the easiest and most cost effective.

Q: Okay, but with Amazon, do they, like, own part of your content if you publish through them?

Beka: NOPE. I hold copyright to all my works. they just are the people who produce the actual physical book.

Q: What was the time frame, like from start to finish, I guess? Or the process if you don't mind. What did you have to do to get set up with Amazon?

Beka: Ok- so getting set up was easy. if you have an amazon account, you're good. Or you just make one. then there is a website- kdp.amazon.com -and they literally walk you through the entire process. Someone up there asked how long it took - I rushed it. my novel started as fanfic, which I wrote in about 2 months, then I took 2 weeks re-editing and changing to non-fanfic, then about a week editing again and formatting and then i had my hard copy. So, all in- maybe 3 months, but the actual amazon stuff takes a few days to get you a book in hand.

@kittenofdoomage: One thing I will say about Amazon, it's very convenient but I struggled with the covers and formatting.

Q: Did you have to use special software to submit your work?

Beka: I write in google docs, but amazon no likey- so I had to move everything over to Microsoft Word. and from there it gets updated. HOWEVER, there is now in beta testing an amazon program which I downloaded for my 3rd book but was too frustrated to figure out so I never used it. it's specifically for Kindle, but kindle didn't like my poetry format so I couldn’t do it.

@kittenofdoomage: They have step by step guides. And I use Google Docs, too, but you can download into a PDF or .doc file from there.

Q: So it's not a copy-paste thing, you upload the completed file then reformat it for amazon?

Beka: well... it's two different things for paperback and kindle. There are specific formatting guidelines for paperback such as margin sizes and gutters and such so when you turn a page it's not all wonky. Kindle formatting is MUCH easier to do. you just upload and it does it for you. The files for paperback need to be formatted with specific things. it's not hard... just annoying.

Q: You mentioned changing your fanfic into non-fanfic. Does that mean you can't have any fan elements in a story to publish it?

Beka: Well... my novel was basically a J2 x Reader BDSM fanfic, and so I changed J2 to original characters, I changed the show, the car, the everything. If you know that I write SPN fic, and you read it, you can see it's clearly SPN, but those who don't know SPN don't know that, because I've asked. lol. Also- someone read it recently and thought the Jared character was Jensen, so I guess I changed it enough. I personally would not publish anything that actually said SPN or J2 or anything because those are copy-written characters and not mine so it does seem illegal to make money off of them, ya know?

@mrswhozeewhatsis: It is actually illegal to make money off of fan fiction. The WB owns the characters and the show. If anyone else tries to make money off the characters or identifiable elements of the show, the WB can sue and win.

@kittenofdoomage: Those who use Patreon are covered under fair usage only because Patreon is a donation site.

Q: Were there any parts of the process that surprised you?

Beka: Honestly, the entire thing surprised me. I went into it like just to see if it was possible and then i realized- I CAN’T publish my work. they WILL sell it. People WILL buy it. and it was all very shocking. It was scary, and I know people are intimidated by it, but it really was simple in the end, and if you want to do it- do it. It's awesome to look over at my bookshelf and see my name on actual, physical books ya know?

@kittenofdoomage: I was the same, Beka. I procrastinated for months. And okay, it wasn't a huge success but I learned from the first time, bettered myself the second time, and now.... I'm procrastinating again but that's not the point lol

Q: How much money do you make per sale?

Beka: It depends on the format and the cost you put. Like, for my short story and poetry book I make PROBABLY a few cents on it. My novel I make around $2 depending on the price I set. You set the selling price, and you can do sales and freebies.

@kittenofdoomage: You can choose everything. They tell you how much you'll make from each copy sold.

Q: Do they tell you how much other authors sell similar works for, to give you an idea what others think is reasonable?

Beka: Yeah, you can look it up, too. They have a chart that's like, "This is your sale price. This is how much we take to make it. This is how much you get," and you can fiddle with it.

Q: Is there any kind of marketing happening on Amazon’s side, or is it all you?

Beka: They can do promotions, but you have to pay them to promote it.

Q: Did you look into promotion costs through Amazon? What kind of money are we talking, here?

Beka: Honestly, I don’t remember. When I see a fee of any kind I run for the hills because I'm cheap like that. lol. It's prob not too cheap BUT they also have this thing you can sign up for that's like a library kinda deal where your book can go on the free book a month kindle deal- i didn't do it bc you don't get royalties for it. but more people read it? idk what's best. It's all very over my head marketing.

@mrswhozeewhatsis: I guess if you're looking to become a popular selling author, and you have the cash to pay to promote it, then after a few books, it would pay off when you develop an audience.

Q: Do you think self publishing is the way to go long term, or maybe a better in terms of testing the waters? I realize you are still in the latter stage but I'm curious about your opinion...

Beka: Here's my thoughts: I used to be a singer/songwriter. I played in Manhattan. I had paying gigs. I recorded an album. I thought I could make it work. But I didn't go for it. No one handed me a record contract. I let it all go to have my kids and family. I want to write. I realize no one's gonna stick their hand out and hand me a publishing deal. BUT I might be able to pay some bills with my books. I might be able to write enough, well enough to sell some books. and if i sell enough books, maybe a publisher WILL see me and then I can attempt the next stage. I think self publishing is great. Why not? Do it if you want to do it. If you want to write, write. If you want to share it, share it. Who's to stop you? And if you can share it through self publishing with people all over the world?? freaking do it, man.

Q: What is your best piece of writing advice?

Beka: OK, my best writing advice is... See it, feel it, write it. If you don't feel what you're writing, I'm not gonna feel it reading it. I think i'm more of an emotional writer than a descriptive. I can't tell you what the room looks like that they're in, but I can tell you how it feels that Dean just stepped on that Lego. ya know? Idk. Write what you see and feel, and put yourself into it, and it'll be amazing.

Q: Are you a planner or a pantser?

Beka: Planner? SOMETIMES. It depends. I have plans for series, but shorter things I just go with the flow. I'm constantly messaging Ashley like "DEAN JUST DID X. I DID NOT SEE THAT COMING!" lol

Q: Do you outline at all, or just have a general goal in mind?

Beka: I do outline series. but not... strictly or drastically. Like, right now i'm working on a series for my kink bingo that's alternates between the brothers. I have a general plot line over all to follow, but i've also set it up like c1- flogging. c2- spanking, etc.

Q: What is something you know now that you wish you knew before you published?

Beka: I think I'd tell myself to not worry and just freaking write what I want.

Q: Do you have a writing schedule or something that keeps you productive?

Beka: No. I try very hard to have a schedule, but I'm a little... slightly... bipolar I think and my writing follows my moods. I can write 20K in a weekend and then nothing for a week. I just literally ride the wave of ideas. Like, currently I'm in a slump. but I wrote 10K this week before the slump hit. It's quite annoying.

Except for some general conversation about the stupid places and times we all get ideas and the incomprehensible notes we’ve all left for ourselves, the chat ended. A good time was had by all, I think!! Thanks to everyone who was there! @littlegreenplasticsoldier @kittenofdoomage @girl-with-a-fandom-fettish @because-imma-lady-assface @canadianspnhunter (And two folks whose URLs I never got: Cassie and Shaila)

General Pond Updates and Reminders

Angel Fish Award nominations are due soon! Click the link for the list of raffle prizes! Remember, every nomination is an entry! So far, we’ve only received three or four nominations. If you have sent in a nomination, but have not received a private message confirming we received it, we didn’t get it. Send it in again! Be sure to use Submit instead of Ask!

Don’t forget to submit your stories to be posted to the blog! When your stories are on the blog, then they are easier to nominate for Angel Fish Awards!

SPNFanFicPond Season 14 Weekly Episode Writing Challenge - New prompts go up after every new episode, and there’s no deadline! Check out the prompts and rules at the link!

Say hi to February’s New Members!

Check the Pond CALENDAR to see when Big Fish will be in the chat room and other Pond and SPN events are happening! Know of something that’s not on the calendar, send us an ask or submission with the deets info details! The calendar offers a lot of features, such as showing you when things are in your own timezone! Since we’re an international group, that’s a definite plus!!

Next month’s LiveChat details will be published as soon as we know them! Hope to see you there!

#spnfanficpond live chat #chat room #let's chat #THE CHAT ROOM #pond chat

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freedom-of-fanfic · 6 years

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I'm curious for your thoughts on this subject. I dislike the way antis use the term "yaoi" and "fujoshi" since I feel like these terms were created to mean specific things (in Japanese culture) and antis often apply it without considering differences between slash and yaoi. Also, I dislike the way they use yaoi to pretty much mean fetishizing mlm/content, and fujoshi as fetishizing women since both terms are from Japan and I feel weird seeing these terms associated with fetishizing.

I also am really bothered by the way English fandom has adopted genre words from Japan to mean ‘the worst version of [x]/fans of [x]’. it feels like a form of looking down anything coming from Japan/Japanese culture and treating Japanese culture as the source of these ‘worst versions’.

(a lot of what follows is from light research I’ve done over the years and personal experience. It’s my opinion and experiences rather than a closely researched and heavily sourced essay.)

I think the reason for this weird English-speaking take is two-fold:

Americans/western culture interprets the Japanese subgenre ‘yaoi’ and its Japanese creators & fans through the lens of American/western culture and finds them wanting

the reinterpretation of the concept of ‘yaoi’ and ‘fujoshi’ in American/western culture and the unfortunate associations created as a result

Without going into historical depth, any western - particularly American - interaction with Japanese culture is an unequal one. Besides the ignominious end of WWII, the American army was the means of forcing Japan to reopen their borders in the 1850′s. And frankly: western culture has been obsessed with Japanese culture (and other East Asian cultures) for literal centuries. and we’ve been taking their cool shit and appropriating and bastardizing it for just as long.[$]

the way that the words ‘yaoi’ and ‘fujoshi’ are being treated now is, in my opinion, an extension of this.

(this post was heavily updated on August 2-3rd, 2018, to add a lot more about the word ‘fujoshi’: it originally focused more on ‘yaoi’. huge thanks to blogs like @rottenboysclub, @oh-suketora, and @satans-tiddies for all the information they’ve put out on tumblr about these words.[%] )

American understanding of yaoi in Japan & its Japanese fans

Americans don’t understand yaoi or fujoshi in their original Japanese context, but we belittle and denigrate it as if we do.

BL (Boy’s Love) and its subgenre ‘yaoi’ seem to have a similar relationship to Japanese fans as ‘slashfic’ and mlm fiction does to American fans. But that doesn’t mean we understand yaoi/BL in the context of Japanese culture or that we interact with yaoi/BL the same way Japanese fans do. Same for the word ‘fujoshi’ - a term that seems to have been coined in a derogatory context but was ‘reclaimed’ by the very female-aligned fans that it was meant to denigrate. (but more on ‘fujoshi’ later.)

In Japan, the word ‘yaoi’ is more equivalent to a Japanese acronym for the English ‘pwp’ (plot? what plot?) than a word referring to mlm. Like ‘pwp’ in its original usage, ‘yaoi’ indicates a fanwork or small-time/one-shot original work (doujinshi) that has little to no plot and/or focuses almost exclusively on the sex part of a fictional ship, though ‘yaoi’ is specifically applied to mlm-focused ‘plotless’ fanworks*.

(*it’s worth noting that - as mentioned in the wiki link above - the word ‘yaoi’ does not, on its own, have a meaning attached to BL. it has more to do with who adopted the acronym for common use: specifically, BL doujin writers.)

‘yaoi’ has fallen out of use in Japanese fan circles. ‘BL’ - ‘boy’s love’ - is the word which is more of an umbrella term for mlm in the way ‘slash’ is in English-speaking fandom, covering everything from explicit sex to soft pre-romance hand-holding. however, ‘yaoi’ was the word that became known as the Japanese-equivalent mlm fan genre to ‘slash’ in English-speaking circles, which had the unfortunate effect of leading English-speaking animanga fans to compare only the most tropey, explicit mlm content from Japanese fandom against all varieties of mlm ‘slash’ content from English-speaking fandom.

This was comparing apples to oranges; a more equivalent Western fandom comparison to Japanese ‘yaoi’ would probably be silly oneshot crackfic and kinkmeme fics. But the misapprehension was already in place and only got worse as some of the tropes of the explicit versions of yaoi genre doujinshi became increasingly known - the ‘seme’ (’top’) and ‘uke’ (’bottom’) and their supposedly male/female-like roles, the ‘rapey’ tendency to show the uke as crying and reluctant under an aggressive seme, etc.

These kinds of tropes don’t sit well with a modern American audience. And Japanese bl fans have had their own conversations about whether bl/yaoi is harmful to or supportive of Japanese gay culture (and long before Western / English-speaking fandom circles were having them, at least in a widespread way.)

But Americans are ill-equipped to judge the situation from the sidelines. To provide a few examples of things we generally don’t have cultural context on to truly understand yaoi (BL, tbh) and its Japanese fans:

LGBTQ+ culture in Japan

the Japanese flavor of gender essentialism

social and societal pressures on Japanese people, particularly women (trans, cis, and intersex) & nb ppl who identify as femme-aligned

what it means to be ‘feminine’ in Japan

strongly gendered roles in the bedroom (sex in Japan)

Without knowing all this, how can we understand why yaoi (or BL) is constructed the way it is? how can we understand what draws people to it, or how it sits with Japanese LGBTQ people?

But because many yaoi tropes don’t sit well with Americans in the context of our own culture and increasing openness to LGBT+/queer people, and because we’ve given yaoi a false equivalence with a western genre of fiction that has a much wider range of subject and form, we’re apt to look down on yaoi as ‘bad mlm’ and on its ‘fujoshi’ fans as genuinely ‘rotten women’.

The international reinterpretation of ‘yaoi’ & international yaoi fans

the other way the word ‘yaoi’ is used by many people in fandom-centric tumblr - anti and non-anti alike - is in reference to how Americans/Western fans ‘initially’ interacted with Japanese-sourced mlm (’initially’ being when yaoi became well-known enough for a noticeable interaction to appear in American/western geek subculture).

Manga and anime had a popularity boom in the US around 2003/2004 thanks to improving internet speeds and the 24-hour cartoon channel Cartoon Network looking for fresh animated content to air. Media companies caught on and a glut of manga and anime were officially licensed, translated, and sold overseas.

As the popularity of Japanese media grew, the word ‘yaoi’ became more popular and widely used in fandom circles, usually as a substitute for ‘slash’ or ‘gay’ (fictional mlm) when the source material for the fannish subject was Japanese in origin. I think this hit its peak around 2006-2007; at that time many teenage and young adult anime fans (primarily female/femme) who enjoyed slashfic/mlm fic called themselves ‘yaoi fans’.

Why was ‘yaoi’ so popular in America/western culture? and why did its fans get such an awful reputation over time?

as for popularity, here’s a few aspects:

Just another word for ‘slash’ - it wasn’t so much that yaoi as a publishing genre was popular as that there were a lot anime fans in fandom using the word ‘yaoi’ for their mlm fan content instead of the word ‘slash’. (and it still is used this way in some circles.)

male-attracted teen’s first fanservice - because of the size of the boom and the comparative diffidence of American marketers to young (male-attracted) people, a young anime fan’s first published media experience with the sexual ‘female gaze’ directed towards men was more likely to be sourced in Japanese BL content.

American gaze on Japanese male companionship - manga geared towards young men / perceived men in Japan (such as Shonen Jump titles) features a lot of male companionship and tight bonds of friendship. So does American media, but American male culture rarely allows men to touch one another in friendly ways (any gentle touch from a cis man is treated as expressing sexual interest). Japanese male friendship culture lacks this physical distance. Guess how it was interpreted, and guess what kind of effect it had on American anime/manga fandom.

relatedly, this LGBT/queer read on Japanese-sourced masc-centric content, plus the willingness of works aimed towards femme audiences to present all-but-canon mlm relationships, probably functioned as a poor man’s substitute for the lack of LGBT representation in American media in some cases.

and some reasons for the terrible reputation ‘yaoi fans’ garnered:

American ‘yaoi fans’ in the mid-2000′s were mostly teenage girls/femme-aligned young people, and it is an American pastime to shit on teenage girls for being teenagers and girls at the same time.

10 years on, those teenage girls are young adults in their 20′s looking back on their younger selves with embarrassed disgust. That is: the word ‘yaoi’ started to garner its sour taste in the 2010′s because that’s when most of the teenagers of the 2000′s outgrew that particular flavor of immaturity.

a lack of LGBT/queer culture awareness and education in America. Yaoi or slash fanworks may have been Baby’s First Gay Content. It also might have been the entire extent of their knowledge about non-straight anything because America had by no means the same level of LGBT/queer visibility that it does now and certainly didn’t (doesn’t) educate about it. people said and did some awful stuff out of sheer ignorance and lack of thought.

fandom got better about it because resources improved and visibility increased, which was itself in some measure because of the popularity of mlm fiction in fandom circles leading to people doing more research and queer fans educating those who knew less. BL wasn’t necessarily intended as queer rep, but it did act as a gateway to queer culture for people who discovered things about themselves through BL.

socially inappropriate behavior of many, many kinds - including those who refused to separate fiction and reality and treated real mlm like live fanservice (‘omg real life yaoi!’). But as an icon of ‘yaoi fan in the 2000′s cringe culture’, perhaps nothing is so prominent and well-known as the ‘yaoi paddle’.

why is the yaoi paddle so illustrative and iconic? Well - the paddles were sold at anime conventions as a silly novelty item. Anime convention attendees tended (and still tend) to skew young, particularly compared to other nerdy social gatherings. And as you would expect of a bunch of (a) overexcited young people (b) relatively lacking in supervision and (c ) surrounded by things liable to raise their excitement levels even more, they did a lot of foolish things when handed wooden oars that were easy to swing around and hit people with.

At about the same time that anime fandom was truly exploding in size and the yaoi paddle craze was hitting its peak, the internet was juuust about bandwidth friendly enough to allow people to take videos and upload them to this awesome new site ‘youtube’.

I’d say ‘you can imagine what kinds of videos people uploaded’ but you don’t have to imagine. you can see for yourself. The human interest news articles practically wrote themselves. And while yaoi paddles were quickly banned from conventions and their popularity dropped almost as fast, it was an impression to linger. particularly, IMO, combined with other invasive social behaviors that were somewhat more tolerated at anime conventions back then: ‘glomping’, ‘free hugs!’ signs, awkwardly following relative strangers around conventions as nominal ‘friends’, cosplayers publicly ‘making out’ as ‘fanservice’, etc.*

so this is the image of the ‘yaoi fan’ today - a young, white American cis girl at an anime convention in 2007, lacking self-restraint, social grace, and the ability to distinguish fiction from reality. and though this image has little to do with the original Japanese concept, we use the Japanese word to conjure it.

*these behaviors weren’t limited to young female / perceived female ‘yaoi fans’ by any means, but partially because of yaoi paddles, ‘cringe culture’ and ‘yaoi fangirls’ were inexorably linked to one another.

International (mis)use of ‘Fujoshi’: a Brief History

In contrast with ‘yaoi’, the word ‘fujoshi’ has a comparatively short history in American culture. It had a brief rise to popularity in the early- to mid- 2010′s, but for the past year or two it has been heavily invoked by the (so to speak) ‘fandom police’ as an invective against (perceived) women who ship fictional mlm and/or create explicit fictional mlm fanworks.

‘fujoshi’ ( 腐女子 ) is a compound word composed of the kanji/hanzi for ‘rotten’/’fermented’ (腐) and ‘woman’ (女子 ) and is a homonym with an old Japanese word for ‘respectable woman’ (婦女子 ). It was coined on 2ch (a Japanese text board popular with men) to insult (perceived) female fans who ‘queered’ media content written for & centered around men: re-imagining (canon straight) male characters as queer/gay/bi, shipping them with one another, and discussing/creating explicit, sexual work around those ships. (sound familiar?)

In its original insulting context, a ‘fujoshi’ was woman who was no longer a desirable marriage partner because of her interest in BL. She had ruined herself by marinating in sexual fantasies - and not even normal sexual fantasies about having sex with a man herself. Instead, she had fantasies about men having sex with men! Not only had a fujoshi woman lost her cute naivete and innocence: she’d also turned into a sexual deviant. She was fermented, overripe, disgusting, undesirable.

I don’t know how long this meaning had any clout, because Japanese BL fans - BL fans from all over Asia, in fact - embraced the ‘fujoshi’ label. to me, the implication of the ‘fujoshi’ reclamation reads like a giant, queer ‘fuck you’ to the kind of dudebros who hated them: ‘you find me undesirable because i like gay/queer content? That’s hilarious, because I never wanted you in the first place.’

And to this day (mid-2018), 'fu’/ 腐, ’fujo’/ 腐女, and its varieties (腐男子, 腐人, etc) have positive connotations in kanji/hanzi-using fandom circles.

The word ‘fujoshi’ reached English-speaking Western fandom eventually (I want to say in the late 2000′s/early 2010′s). It came to us already reclaimed and was picked up as a positive self-label. In those earlier days, Western fandom called themselves ‘fujoshi’ in a way much more similar to how Eastern fandom still uses it:

It’s not my job to please you.

I’m allowed to enjoy taboo things like queer fanworks, headcanoning canon straight male characters as gay, and sexually explicit content.

If you think that makes me gross, then fine: i’m gross. your opinion doesn’t hurt me. in fact, I embrace it.

(now go away and let me ship.)

this connotation of ‘fujoshi’ enjoyed a brief period of popularity. There was a fandom ‘sweet spot’ for slash in 2011-2012: shifts in public opinion meant shipping gay ships wasn’t utterly taboo anymore and AO3 was a safe space for sharing slashfic. ‘Fujoshi’ came to semi-replace ‘yaoi fan’ in the English lexicon, at this time, becoming synonymous with ‘ships gay ships in animanga fandoms’, with the added bonus of partially shedding the connotation of loving old yaoi doujin tropes in one’s slashfic.

But in the last few years - starting in around 2014/2015, I want to say - there was a shift in the attitude towards shipping mlm here on tumblr.

mlm fans who are seen as women - whether they are or not - are increasingly told that shipping fictional slash ships or creating fictional content about men in love with/having sex with men is terrible. mlm shippers/fanwork creators who aren’t mlm themselves - especially perceived-female mlm shippers/fanwork creators - are apparent no different from the ‘yaoi fangirl’ stereotype above: the 2007 cis white socially awkward fangirl, holding a yaoi paddle and screaming with excitement about real life yaoi!!! whenever two real gay men kiss.

the word ‘fujoshi’ - still tied to the English-speaking concept of ‘yaoi’ by both words being Japanese in origin and related to mlm fan content - was about to get unreclaimed with a vengeance … by American/Western fans with hardly a drop of knowledge about Japanese culture, fandom, or language.

And it’s been every bit as ugly as you can imagine.

‘yaoi’ and ‘fujoshi’ on tumblr today (mid-2018)

fandom on tumblr, deeply into policing everyone’s fannish interests in the name of social awareness, invokes ‘yaoi’ in a two-fold way:

‘yaoi’ as a doujinshi subgenre in Japan: featuring fictional mlm in sexual situations for titillation written by Japanese women (& femme-identifying nb people) for Japanese women (& femme-identifying nb people), and the distasteful feelings American/western culture bears towards its tropes as being unacceptably unrealistic and ‘backwards’ by modern progressive American standards.

‘yaoi’ as ‘cringe culture’: an imperialistic American/western read on Japanese media content + exposure to Japanese BL, blending unfavorably with a lack of education on real LGBT/queer culture, a lack of alternative LGBT/queer media representation, and teenagers being teenagers

Tumblr fandom police, feeling that ‘fujoshi’ was equally bad as ‘yaoi’ by dint of being adopted as a label by animanga slashfic fans & as another Japanese word relating to mlm shipping, proceeded to co-opt, redefine, and ‘un-claim’ the word ‘fujoshi’:

‘fujoshi’, but literally. having gotten wind of the literal meaning of the word ‘fujoshi’, but completely lacking the context under which the word was created, invoked, and reclaimed, fandom policers designated their own negative meaning for ‘rotten girl’. ‘fujoshi’ means ‘straight girl that’s rotten because she fetishizes gay men!’ fandom policers say - even though that has literally nothing to do with ‘fujoshi’ in its proper context.

telling East Asian fujoshi they can’t call themselves fujoshi. having decided the word ‘fujoshi’ is tied to being homophobic (by ‘fetishizing’ gay romance), and that its derogatory of women because they rely on their own re-take on the literal, negative meaning, American fandom policers start attacking East Asian fans that proudly call themselves fujoshi. (I wish I was joking.)

In summary, English-speaking fans are using their own twisted, ill-informed, and imperialistic treatment and understanding of Japanese concepts to turn those words into pejoratives for use in petty ship wars.

(And when you put it like that it kind of starts to look a little … well … racist.)

[%] This post was never intended as an exhaustive resource - as noted at the beginning of the post, it was based on my absorbed knowledge from being in animanga fandom as an American for many years - but thanks to the blogs I listed, who have a much more thorough knowledge of kanji / hanzi-using fan spaces such as Japan/China/Taiwan, Korea (in part), etc, I learned a lot about the current usage of ‘yaoi’ (or lack thereof) in Japan & how fujoshi was adopted as a popular label over the last 9 months.

If you’re ever looking for more information on these topics, I would especially point you to @rottenboysclub, as their blog is focused on educating English-speaking fandom on Japanese queer/LGBT+ and fandom terminology.

[$] regarding western tendency to appropriate Japanese culture - Japan is eager to export the unique aspects of their culture. but how many times have you seen an English article with titles like ‘10 Reasons Why Japan is So Weird’ or ‘25 Weird Things About Japan that will make you say ‘buy why?’’ (the literacy rate in Japan being nearly 100% is #3 on this list). and okay - Japanese culture is remarkably different from American culture. But this ‘Japan is so weird’ talk is often accompanied by a tone of mild superiority.

consider how we treat Japanese cultural products such as movies. The recent Death Note debacle is only the latest in a long string of this kind of nonsense (though thank goodness it’s getting the reputation it deserves.) Remember The Ring? American remake of Ringu. And of course there’s dozens of other examples of Americans buying or taking things from its original Japanese context and trying to make it ‘better’ for a mainstream American audience, even though the American audience liked the original Japanese product just fine. (Dragonball Z comes to mind.)

(On the flip side you have ‘weaboos/weebs’, the contemporary word for ‘Japanophiles’, putting Japanese culture on a pedestal, which is not any better, and disgust with ‘weebs’ tends to be extended to the aspects of Japanese culture they worship.)

#racism in fandom #this is an americentric post #yaoi as a trope #in defense of fujoshi #in defense of freedom to fandom #animanga fandom #fandom history #TEH HOT YAOIZ

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s0023329a2film-blog · 7 years

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S1: Post R. Collated Quotes

Can Guleserian be considered to be an auteur as a director of photography, and if so, how is it linked to his personal auteur style?

Item 1: “I kept saying, “I saw ‘Like Crazy’ and that was so beautiful. I loved the informality and brightness, so whoever we get, we have to get it to look like ‘Like Crazy.’” Someone finally said, “You know, just ask the guy! See if he’s around.””

Item 1: “So I both love the way he made it look, but he also basically did the whole thing with the camera on his shoulder. That meant it was a very relaxed atmosphere on set — none of the sticks and the tracks and all of that.”

Item 2: Q. What do you think is the biggest misconception about being a Cinematographer? A. We are not just the camera man. We are all very different, but a cinematographer has many responsibilities and should be equal parts Artist, Manager, and Technician.

Item 3: “We knew we wanted to have some underwater shots as part of this montage, but I was worried about the time and resources it would cost for us to put a camera and operator in the pool for just a couple of shots. I ended up having the idea to put a GoPro on an old $10 monopod and just dunking it in the water and following the action around. This was difficult because I couldn’t monitor the camera while shooting. I was just hoping for the best and luckily, it worked out great.”

Item 5: “This is always a challenge to me because I believe every shot is telling your story and nothing should ever feel arbitrary. I also think some scenes work best as a single shot, and having a second camera around can give us all a “let’s just shoot it so we have it” attitude. Patrick and I decided early in our planning stages that we would avoid that way of thinking.”

Item 9: Q. When shooting a film this intimate, the cinematographer must feel like another cast member. Jones: Absolutely. John Guleserian’s presence was so important to us feeling as comfortable as possible. We luckily had a man who’s not only extraordinarily talented but has the ability to observe without being intrusive. That was the key really. He’s a substantial man. […] His energy comes through the camera.

Item 9: “His eye is so unique. I think he’s an incredibly unique DP.”

Item 11: They flirt, meet for coffee. Right here, the film’s core strength becomes evident: This awkward, sorta-kinda first date is punctuated by the weird non-sequiturs we all slip into such conversations, when not wanting to reveal too much of ourselves too quickly, but at the same time wanting to come across as, well, brilliant and perfect.John Guleserian’s camerawork catches all the essential details: Anna’s shy, nervous expressions; Jacob’s somewhat more self-assured replies.

How has Guleserian used his experience from other media forms to develop his own style? Does this strengthen or weaken his ‘auteur’ status?

Item 2: Q. Have you ever thought of getting involved in other aspects of film making besides Cinematography? A. Not really. I have always had a passion for images. I would love to work as a visual consultant for animated movies someday.

Item 12: Q. As a first-time director, did your Director of Photography help you with location scouting, storyboarding, picking out lenses? How involved were you? Chris: All of that stuff. Oh, John Guleserian, I just love him. He was wonderful. [...] The beautiful thing about movie making is that we all know cinema so you can reference other films so you can say “That. How do you do that?” Luckily, I had a lot of people who were willing to be patient with me and walk me through. But he was there every step of the way through storyboards and scouting and all.

To what extent does Guleserian conform to the conventions of the romance and drama genres, and does this undermine his 'auteur’ status?

Item 4: Q. What’s the worst advice? A. Everyone always wants to tell you that there is right way to do things. (This is the way you light a night scene. This is the lens you use for a close up. This is the coverage you shoot in a car.) These are conventions. The way you choose to do it is the right way, and you shouldn’t feel obligated to follow conventions.

Item 10: Luckily Dormeus’ trusty cinematographer has experience with the ever-tricky sci-fi romance, by shooting the underrated About Time with an unseen flair for a quick, bouncy montage. Guleserian expertly conveyed the barriers of romance in Like Crazy (distance) and Breathe In (in the shadows).

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caredogstips · 7 years

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Life on the American flow: Mark Twain romance, or false hope for the homeless?

Hundreds without housing in California have constructed their home on the shady banks of the American river. But the bucolic vistum belies a darker reality

Richard Dean heaved his bike and trailer across the bridge, away from the city, and followed a soil track through scouring until reaching a patch of shaded riverbank.

It was approaching 100 F( 37 C) but Dean, sweating and panting, was upbeat. This is a good workout. And we have the best air-conditioning in the world. Its called the American river.

The wiry 50 -year-old unleashed his dog, Shunka, extracted a foldable chair from the cart and settled in for a serene afternoon under pecan and dogwood trees. He wasnt “re going away”. He was home.

Dean, who goes by the nickname Syphy, is part of a largely invisible homeless person camped by the reeds and thickets stringing the American river just outside Sacramento, Californias capital. They come for the seclusion and opportunity to live on their own terms.

Rory Carroll (@ rorycarroll7 2) June 30, 2016

Trekking Sacramento’s American river session #homeless campers. It’s another world. Scenic, serene, hopeless. pic.twitter.com/ S50DY8jq5e

They are not the first. Nisenan Indians terminated here 5,000 years ago. Itinerant miners built shanties during the 1840 s gold rush, must be accompanied by pedigrees dislodged during the Great Depression. Now it is the turn of hundreds of modern outcasts with domesticateds, bicycles, tents and tarpaulin.

Its so nice out here. I dont consider myself homeless, I merely live outside, replied Julie Pacheco, 48, accommodated in a bramble spot. I dont take any[ government] succor. Id rather be a camping gypsy, she said.

Pacheco had switched her little clear, concealed from the river by blackberry undergrowths and almond trees, into a dwelling with two tents, a burn quarry, a chair, a flowerpot and a load of publications and volumes, including Shirley MacLaine romances and a Ronald Reagan biography. She shared it with Annie, a terrier-chihuahua.

Ive got some Angus steaks marinating, responded Pacheco. Ill cook them tonight with mesquite to give them a barbecue taste.

Rory Carroll (@ rorycarroll7 2) June 30, 2016

Julie Pacheco marinading frozen steaks taken away from garbage. ‘With some mesquite for a bbq taste.’ #homeless pic.twitter.com/ stKUlso7bF

They seem to be obscuring

These clandestine denizens appear to occupy a comparatively benign area of the US homelessness crisis: a bucolic landscape with owls and beavers and a flow where they can bathe, fish and live often like Huckleberry Finn. Some do chilling in the water, fastening trout, exploring waterways with canoes.

Appearances deceive. Look closer and any sense of nostalgic idyll dissolves. The same pressures driving homelessness from New York to Los Angeles poverty, mental illness, craving waft through the reeds and oleander. The flow is no refuge. Its a trap.

Those who call it dwelling can invest months, times, even decades in a netherworld a little bit closer to Trainspotting than Mark Twain.

Many abuse drugs, especially methamphetamine nicknamed crank, transforming them into toothless, hollow-cheeked vagabonds with nervous systems so fried they perpetually twitch, earning the nickname tweakers. They survive not through wilderness resourcefulness but private charity, food stamps and welfare checks which land around the start of each month, expressed in the term the eagle shits on the first.

It pops you in the look, articulated Joan Burke, advocacy chairman for Loaves& Fishes, a non-profit which feeds hundreds daily in Sacramento. We have people living in third-world ailments with no access to potable water or sanitation. Its grisly to realise them living in squalor when they truly cant take care of themselves.

Newcomers have swollen the population from dozens to hundreds in recent years, making some old-timers to move further upriver to escape fear of violence, added Jeff Harris, a city council member.

Anthony Bennett, a common ranger sergeant who heads a seven-strong crew in the American River Parkway, a 23 -mile environmental ornament, has spent a decade rousting and counseling the homeless. Its a bit lamentable and hopeless. They seem to be disguising away from society. Its not safe, its not legal and its not healthy. We do what we can to push people towards services and assistant. But we cant coerce them to take it.

Bennett alleged rangers strive to keep the parkway clean and safe without persecuting the homeless, who injury the ballpark with litter, grove mow and burns. Were not a swat squad or the Gestapo. We consider these beings as human beings.

Who lives here

When the Guardian accompanied Bennett on a recent patrol he trekked down restricted dirt directions silent save for fowls and the rivers swirl. Bent grass and snarled limbs betrayed entries to otherwise obscured camps, most containing just one or two tents.

Brandon Jack, 47, and Jennifer Goggin, 44, lived with their puppy, Miss Brodie, beneath a canopy of wild grapes. Jack, barefoot and shirtless, said he was an electrician descended on hard times. Homeless shelters were not policy options, he enunciated. You get 30 guys in a room blow snot everywhere. Its a disease factory.

So for a year he had lived by the river, exploiting it bathe, wash foods and build a new life with his partner.

Rory Carroll (@ rorycarroll7 2) June 30, 2016

Brandon Jack camps under wild grapes. ‘I want to be out of the channel. Out of sight out of mind.’ #homeless pic.twitter.com/ qkZPo3lVIE

Bennett returned the couple 48 hours to move and urged them to contact Sacramento Steps Forward, a non-profit which works with the city to offer shelter and services to the homeless.

Jack gestured but did not seem reassured. Wed rather be out of the path. Out of view, out of brain.

Further down the river another duet bore the devastations of decades in the wilderness. James Donaldson was weather-beaten with an unkempt beard of an Old Testament prophet. His wife Paula Richardson, 53, slumped in a chair, coughed, coughed and cursed at dogs who roared from behind a tarpaulin sheet.

Through slurred speech Donaldson talked up the merit of flow life. Beautiful vegetation. It presents a lot of oxygen. He claimed to be an ex-LAPD patrolman who had California head Jerry Browns personal authorization to live here. Scrap and accumulations of filthy clothes bespoke a mis fight against grunge and disease.

A handful appear to thrive. An old-timer nicknamed Runner Mike, so-called because he runs through the wilderness, improves skillfully camouflaged shelters with air-vents, isolation, passageways and spider-holes. Hes quite proud of what he builds, said Bennett. Another occupant, nicknamed Monkey, seeks maximum solitude by occupying islands.

Some band together and form tight-knit hamlets, sharing meat, cigarettes and a feeling of supremacy over those who live on Sacramentos streets, precisely a few miles across the bridge. I dont really like addressing the riff-raff up there, mentioned Tina Schifflett, 43, a former Cinnabon manager who shares a spot of riverbank with several others.

Ryan Loofbourrow, the executive director of Sacramento Steps Forward, said river-dwellers tended to be more rugged and coordinated than city homeless. They want privacy and are now able to carve out a bit of infinite for themselves. But impediments left many struggling, he lent.

Most river-dwellers interviewed for this story spoke of loneliness, affliction and the specter of addiction. They stayed throw, “theyre saying”, for want of available low-income apartments and because moving to a shelter would symbolize giving up pets.

Its peaceful, sure, responded Craig Sanderson, 53, camped under an oak tree with Spike, a pitbull mastiff. He reads thrillers in his boxer shorts between scavenging bottles and cans with a bicycle and go-cart. But the grunge gets to you.

Rory Carroll (@ rorycarroll7 2) June 30, 2016

Craig Sanderson lived under an oak tree with Spike. ‘This is my house. It’s quiet. Downside? The dirt.’ #homeless pic.twitter.com/ 0ZdmzVznII

Pacheco, the woman living under brambles, was proud of her they are able to pasture and lives alone. But separation had unmoored her. Despite no academic background she spoke of drafting existing laws and find a Guggenheim fellowship. She wanted a laptop for investigate but abjured a telephone. Ive no one to call.

Syphy, who heralded the rivers air-conditioning prowess, told you he find close to nature and joked that the parkways maintenance crews were his maids. But even he felt it was a incorrect sanctuary.

If you think this is Huck Finn romance, good luck stepping out of a barge and not stepping on a fucking needle. Croak to a tweaker clique and youll discover the most difficult mess youve ever seen. They plagiarize and go into your stuff. I dont trust parties out here.

Rory Carroll (@ rorycarroll7 2) June 30, 2016

Richard Dean aka Syphy. ‘Best air conditioning – the American river. But starting to suck being out of me.’ #homeless pic.twitter.com/ XDMWXs4zKp

A former meths junkie himself, Syphy had been sober three years he ascribed enjoy for his hound but horror a recurrence. He dreamed of moving to Alaska before it was too late. This target is truly are now beginning to suck the spirit out of me.