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pinkomcranger · 2 months

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I saw your post about Saga and I 100% agree. I love her character so much and was so happy they avoided stereotypes AND gave her agency. She wasn't there just to save Alan (the horrid magical black person troupe was avoided) she was there for people who meant something to her and they just so happen to work together by the end. Remedy truly wrote a fascinating character and got a great actress to portray her. I'm glad the hate died out from the reactionaries but the apathy from the fandom is just as bad sometimes. I love her personality and I honestly love AnderCase as a ship and incorporating Saga into ships (AndercasexWake is a thing for me lol). I also like them as friends, their dynamic is so damn good I want to see them in future games. However, I gave up writing Andercase because people just ignore it most of the time. The fandom in general kind of feels isolating if you don't like the standard ships/characters. It's discouraging and sad and makes it hard to want to post. I tried again and of course the fic did poorly so I don't bother, reminds me how little people want anything to do with Saga. Even general fics would be awesome if people are squicked by het or don't like Saga and Casey as a ship. The fan space for her and ships/dynamics with her is so small...Drawing her is scary too given someone was attacked over it, so that worries me too and I kind of backed away. There's barely anything of Saga in any fanworks and when women are involved they gravitate to Rose and in some cases Estevez (the Yakuza mod just broke my heart they did not think to add Saga before Rose who has less time and at a point people shipped Casey with Estevex BEFORE Saga like WHAT). I know that struggle you're feeling. Saga and anything with her is a footnote and I know it's not malicious but it sucks. Fandom favoritism does not help, even in the smallness of Saga fandom content only a handful are seen and the rest ignored. I've been there and seen it, it pushes newcomers away. I hope this gets better in the future but not holding my breath. Love Remedyverse/Remedy but the fandom space depresses me which sucks because everyone seems nice to me, just...sorry for the rambling. Just saw a post that resonated with my frustrations.

Do you know the thing that gets me the most about Saga? She was created by a white man. And he, along with the other writers, made SURE to avoid the stereotypes we usually get in black women protags, especially in video games. She has a power, yes, but she's not using it solely to save one person. She doesn't even know she HAS a power until halfway through the game!

She wants to save her daughter first and foremost and then Casey, she tells Alan this point-blank, save my daughter and Casey, non-negotiable, she's NOT helping him otherwise. And you can see that as selfish, but it's not, if it had JUST been herself thrown into the story? She would've been FINE with it, you see her getting more and more excited about the case. She's intrigued EVERY step of the way. It only becomes personal when Alan has the audacity to use Logan and Casey, that's her line in the sand.

Melanie puts so much into making Saga come alive, because as amazing as the writing is, she could've still fallen into the sassy black woman trope, and Melanie doesn't let that happen. I think the ONLY criticism you can give her is that her accent slips, but I really never noticed it. I agree that I'm glad the hate from the dumbass gamer bros, but like you said, the apathy can be just as bad, it's a choice to not say the quiet part outloud.

I genuinely wish they'd just say, she's a black woman, therefore, I'm not interested in her. I only care about the white men. At least be HONEST about it, instead of raving about how fun it was to play as Saga and she's so badass but not backing it up with actions.

I love Andercase with every fiber of my being. I loved them from their first scene, despite knowing she was married to somebody else. Casey is Saga's support, you see her loving to crack her puns to Casey, she even thinks of one and saves it to memory solely to tell it to Casey. Not Logan, not David, but Casey.

They mirror each other, again from their first scene, drinking coffee at the same time. A trait they keep, even as the horror story creeps closer. Casey wouldn't be even a little bit interesting to me if he wasn't paired with Saga. He's the moon and she's the sun.

I'm so sorry you were discouraged to write and post about Andercase, even just as besties. Because their dynamic IS gold, and it echoes even when they're separated. The second Kiran shows up and kicks Saga off the case, she gets over it, fine, she'll deal, but help her find her partner, damnit! I've enjoyed fics where they are just besties, the ones that ACTUALLY focus on them and, you know, doesn't make Saga the driving force for CaseyWake and nothing else.

I think that's one of the reasons it's hard for me to ship Saga and FBI Casey with anyone else, because they're each other's closest interactions for so much of the game. It's hard for me to ship Alan with them because I see him and Saga as the true platonic soulmates of the AW2 cast and Casey HATES Alan. All the way up the ending of the final draft. You can see it in his expression and body language, if he hadn't just been through the wringer and so happy to see Saga, he definitely would've punched Alan for all he shit he's put them through.

Writing a pairing you love, feeling so proud and happy about the work you've done, just to see it brushed aside is one of the most painful feelings as a creator. Fandom is supposed to be for EVERYONE, it's not supposed to be high school cliques that can't interact with each other. I don't ship Alan with Saga's Casey (it's just the only way I see him, heh), but I've seen some AMAZING fan art for them that's made me smile. But you rarely see Saga involved, which makes no sense in regards to her Casey. If it was fictional Casey, that would make sense, he doesn't exist outside of Alan's head, while Saga's Casey is a living, breathing person who spends most of his time with Saga or talking about her.

Yet she's relegated to the bro when her Casey and Alan only have her in common. I can't buy Casey being soft and domestic with Alan to save my life. I see it with Saga, I can see Saga being soft with Alan because she does show that side to him. That's who she is, if you've earned her trust and respect. You can tell Saga is always the "good cop" while Casey is the "bad cop." The only time you see him sympathetic towards Alan is when he first washes up to shore. He's mocking him but holding his tongue because Saga's not going to take that nonsense from him.

You only see Casey show the full force of his anger towards Alan when Saga isn't there to stop him. To say "Yes, THAT'S the actual love story here" is a...choice, one that actively ignores the on-screen narrative. Again, fictional Casey and Alan are a completely different topic and not something I care enough to write about.

NOBODY should be attacked for liking a pairing because what does that do? What does it accomplish except make yourself feel better and superior? Again, it's been a choice to ignore the two main women in the series, which are Alice and Saga. But I've seen quite a few fics where Alice gets to be paired with CaseyWake, while you'll be hard-pressed to find a fic where Saga gets to interact with them. That tells me something that makes me uncomfortable. And that's covert racism.

You can't even make the excuse that there's nothing left to learn about Saga, because that's simply untrue. We know the bare minimum about her family on the Anderson side, and absolutely nothing concerning her father (who is Warlin Door and I will die on that hill). We don't know much about her created family, certainly nothing about David, outside of the fact he likes Bright Springs, and boardgames and doesn't take his daughter to get checked out after she hits her head in the shower. The fact her entire identity ISN'T just Logan's mother and David's wife means so much to me.

You can't tell me it's because she's married either, because how can you say that in one breath and then ship Alan with anyone but Alice in the same breath? It genuinely leads me to think it's simply that she's a BLACK woman. And as you said, seeing people create ships for Rose and to pair Estevez with CASEY, when she's an out-and-out lesbian that Casey only meets near the end of the game speaks volumes.

I genuinely think if you swapped her race, she would be less ignored, and that's extremely fucked up. Saga was created with so much love, care, and respect. A black woman protag that we could get behind and feel represented by. A smart, strong, caring badass, who still retains her femininity, but who has an identity outside of "mother" even though saving her daughter is her driving force, it's not her only one. She cares about her newly found grandfather and great-uncle. She cares about Rose, despite the woman irritating her in the beginning. She worries for the residents of the nursing home. She has mixed feelings towards the CULT. And of course, her secondary concern is Casey. And once she sees how hard Alan is trying, she comes to care for him as well. Why else tell him he's a hero when she has every right to hate him more than anyone else in the game?

She cares about these people she's met, and she knows they deserve to be saved. And Alan is the first to admit he can't do ANY of it without Saga. If the main character of the series acknowledged Saga, why can't the fandom?

I truly hope that you can find the courage to try again with Andercase, or just Saga in general. Because I'm seeing that there are people that love her, and maybe they're not content creators but consumers, and that's now one of my motivations. To feed their hunger because they're part of the fandom too, and they shouldn't be ignored. I promise you, you'll have a fan in me. And sometimes, just one person knowing they love what you create and how they look forward to it is enough. I'm not interested in a popularity contest. You'll never see me in ship wars. I'm here for FBI Special Agent Saga Anderson. This is her story too, to make her the footnote in fanworks is terribly egregious and goes against the very thing Remedy wanted.

If you ever want to ramble, my inbox is always open. If you ever have ideas you want to see in regards to fanfic for Andercase or Saga, I'm right here. Thank you so much for giving me a chance to read about your feelings for Saga and her partner. It means the world to me.

#alan wake 2 #saga anderson #alex casey #alan wake #saga anderson x alex casey #andercase #sagacasey #alan wake 2 spoilers #my thoughts #meta #strong black woman #covert racism #ignoring an amazing black woman protag is a crime #sam lake and the remedy team worked too hard on Saga for her to be erased #the men in this series wouldn't be able to do a damn thing without the women #and Saga proves that time and again #anti CaseyWake #not actually anti but using the tag just in case

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lamonnaie · 9 months

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bad buddy fandom getting-to-know-you meme!

Thanks for the tag @fiercynn !! This is a really lovely idea :)

note: i consider "fanworks" to pretty much everything people create related to a fandom, including but not limited to meta/analysis/discussion, gifs, fanvids/edits/fancams, filk, fanart, fanfic, fan food, fan crafts, etc. please include this note with the meme unless you have a different definition!

name and whatever you want to share about yourself hi i'm mars, i use she/her pronouns, i live in australia and i've been into thai/asian bl for a little over a year now. i mostly just lurk and mass rb on tumblr lol, but i'd definitely like to get to know more people !!

when did you watch bad buddy/join the fandom? I was actually trying to track down the exact date recently (i failed), but i watched it for the first time around mid-september 2022, ended up binging it in a day and been a part of the fandom since

favorite ship(s) patpran <3

favorite character(s) pat !! he's one of my favourite characters from any media ever. I just love how selfless he is and how he transforms through the show, and how bright he is but knows when to stand his ground. i could wax poetics about him fr <3

favorite episode(s) Whenever i watch/rewatch bad buddy i tend to binge it so i can never distinguish betweens episodes lol. In general, ep 12 is definitely one of my favs because i feel like it ties things up nicely and i like seeing them happy :) i can probably give a better answer for favourite scene...

favorite scene(s) ...which is why it's great that this is the next question!

In no particular order: the staircase proposal scene, the bus stop roleplaying scene, the post-curtain bench hand holding scene (specifically that one face pat/ohm makes which imo is the single most most heartbreaking frame in the entire show), the ep 12 post-credits scene (wait was it actually post-credits, i don't remember ajksdjf), the screaming on the rocks at the zero-waste village scene, and the rooftop kiss (ofc)

Basically i just like to see them happy (most of the time) :)

one thing you would change about the show if you could the whole making-it-up-to-wai arc was not it for me. WHY was pran the one apologising and going after him??? still makes me mad to this day, but i think i'd have a lot more animosity towards wai if ep 12 didn't exist (also all the wai redemption arcs in fanfics have made me warm up to him :P)

what are your some of your favorite fanworks made by other people? ahhh so many!! joy of stanning a show that's finished is that it stays going through fanworks, but also now there's too many that i absolutely adore to remember in the moment, sp here's some:

we both know you're my only dream (fic) by @fiercynn: one of my favourite fics ever that i constantly go back and reread whenever i'm having a bad day (or not)

yield strength (fic) by @dulosis: the physics analogies do something to my brain /pos

10 things i hate about you (fic) by @nobodynobodyno: this one's so cute and i reread it all the time

this fmv to tujh mein rab dikhta hai by @transpat: desi moots, iykyk. but fr this holds such a special place in my heart, the lyrics are so patpran and the editing and clip choice is just *chef's kiss*

this fmv to dandelions: IT'S SO GOOD. all the parallels, the dialogue overlaying is just perfect, and the TRANSITIONS (the one at 1:28 especially)

every single one of @hereforlou's art: i'm literally obsessed, i don't always see everything on my dash so i'll literally check their tumblr every couple days. is this stalker behaviour? possibly, but if you've seen their art i think you'd understand.

Also special mention to this one gifset of the staircase proposal scene which was my first ever exposure to bad buddy, it made me watch the show to begin with, but i didn't rb it when i first saw it so now it's lost to the times 😭😭

I have an insane amount of fanfic i wanted to put here but for the sake of length of this post, i restrained myself ajskdjf

(if you create fanworks) what are your favorite fanworks that you’ve made? i do not (yet 👀)

a song that makes you think of bbs (the ones in the show don’t count lol) pretty much every fmv/edit that i've rewatched a couple times set to a song will make me thing of bbs lol, so some are tujh mein rab dikhta hai and dandelions from above, emily by Jeremy Zucker and Chelsea Cutler because of this amazing fic, and gorgeous by Taylor Swift because of this gorgeous edit (y'all please go watch it it's amazing).

idk anything else you want us to know? It's the perfect timing for this because these are my nails right now ):)

honestly not super sure who of my mutuals are bbs moots so i'm just gonna tag some people, feel free to ignore this if you've already been tagged/don't want to do it! :)

@nobodynobodyno @dropthedemiurge @justafriend-ql @cornflowershade @hometothecanyonmoon @7nessasaryevils

If you see this and you want to do it, this is is me tagging you as well !!

#bad buddy #bad buddy fandom meme #bad buddy the series #me #lamonnaie stuff

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kit-teung · 9 months

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bad buddy fandom getting-to-know-you meme ):)

template by @fiercynn, tagged by @hereforlou! this is exciting, thank you so much for tagging me <3

name and whatever you want to share about yourself

i'm (na)tasha, a freelance artist from eastern europe, i really love mountains, lemons, teal colour and when it's hot as hell outside. you might know me from c-drama/novel fandoms - that's what i mostly draw on my main blog (which i'm being weirdly secretive about, but if you want to know the url you can message me about it off anon)

when did you watch bad buddy/join the fandom?

episode 5 was trending on here and a mutual who abandoned tumblr almost completely suddenly came back to reblog like 15 rooftop kiss gifsets in a row, scream in tags and then disappear again which made me go huh. what's all this then. lemme check out the first episode. and then by the time episode 6 aired a few days later i'd been already all caught up (can't remember exactly but since i have a tendency towards binge-watching i have a suspicion i watched all five episodes nearly in one sitting). for some personal reasons i'd rather not get into i never got a chance to create anything back then when it was airing and after, and so here i am finally joining the fandom more than a year later!

favorite ship(s)

(apart from the obvious) 📢📢📢TONGYOD📢📢📢 !!! also i was never big on crossover ships but then our skyy 2 happened and altered my brain chemistry

favorite character(s)

sometimes it's pran, sometimes it's pat. i don't control the part of my brain that decides which one of them to hyperfixate on out of the blue

favorite episode(s)

(again, apart from the obvious) i really love episodes 2-4 where they get to reunite and just hang out with each other. i love you bus stop shenanigans. also episode 11 because i'm a sucker for beach episodes, especially when they are mellow and bittersweet

favorite scene(s)

episode 8 balcony scene my beloved. inkpa darkroom confession scene and the way love's voice was trembling as she was on the verge of crying. also that bit in episode 11 where pat wakes up alone, goes out and sees pran playing the guitar outside and pran turns to greet him and SMILES SO SO BIG ugh my heart is doing somersaults as i'm typing this

one thing you would change about the show if you could

put pat in crop tops. cmon

what are your some of your favorite fanworks made by other people?

any of the artworks by @thatgothsamurai, but especially this one

any of the artworks by @shikanji, but especially this one

any of the artworks by @hereforlou, but especially this one

any of the artworks by @kornswasianguyswag, but especially this one

this fanvid, the best fanvid ever that i've accidentally stumbled upon when searching up "bad buddy same page" (i think i was looking for the mock trailer lol)

this fic by @oldlace

this fic by @aroceu

and a special shoutout to all the wonderful gifmakers and meta writers, you guys are the real mvps <3

(if you create fanworks) what are your favorite fanworks that you’ve made?

well, i haven't drawn much bbs fanart yet, but from the ones i've done so far i especially love this inkpa

also pls look at this korn i drew in the bbs discord server

a song that makes you think of bbs (the ones in the show don’t count lol)

does same page count if it technically wasn't in the show ah no wait pat sang it in episode 12 damn it ok this one i guess

youtube

idk anything else you want us to know?

this show's name in my native language is a pun that i can't explain

unfortunately i don't really know anyone in this fandom yet (unless.. @aroceu have you done this thing?), so i'm not tagging anyone, but if you're reading this and you really want to do this, you can say i tagged you!

#bad buddy

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erstwhilesparrow · 1 year

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bsd! i used to be so into bsd. i would love to hear your thoughts (about skk or otherwise!)

oh!! yes!! (taking this opportunity to say: i have read some of your bsd fic! it's so good. have actively recommended it to several people.)

i... feel like i should clarify up front that i've only seen the first three seasons of the anime? so. no idea what's up in the manga, in the latest season, etc. possibly this means i'm missing a bunch of important context! i dunno.

under a cut for length:

but! soukoku! they're weird for me because i have a really hard time reading them as straightforwardly liking / caring about each other? dazai, especially, doesn't strike me as someone who cares about chuuya in the ~obvious / tender way that he is often written in fanworks. (it consistently surprises me that there's so much fic about them and so little of it scratches the specific itch i want skk to scratch for me.) it's more like... ah, i'll just quote from when i talked about it once on discord:

there's definitely something to the dynamic of "i've known you since we were both teenagers and in some ways this means i trust you in the sense of i know we can work well as partners but in other ways i trust you in the sense that you are predictable to me and therefore ~safe"

it's like. the trust of "you are my partner, we work together, we know (more or less) how awful the other person can be" is maybe what other soukoku people are latching onto that i'm not getting completely, but there's also the trust of "you are a very smart, reliable pawn to me and i appreciate that" -- in both cases there is A Reason For Dazai To Rely On Chuuya but it's only when i consider both of them together that soukoku as a ship starts to be More Interesting to me, i think

and i don't want to fall into the thing of ~believing dazai's own propaganda--he's still a person, you can see the ways he's grown since leaving the port mafia--but i can't see dazai as having an easy time reconciling who he is with the ADA with who he is / was with chuuya. so. it's easier if chuuya is a pawn. i don't know if he's ever thought about chuuya past that point enough to form any other concept of him.

and re: chuuya's side of things:

i dunno if trauma-bonding is the right word here but it's like, "oh, you're like me in some key ways, and we've been through hellish stuff together, so now it feels like you're an integral part of my identity"?

possibly the fundamental thing is chuuya i can more easily read as being obsessed with dazai in a way that dazai is not with chuuya? which is both a really fun breakdown of the typical "homoerotic rivals obsession" that does some fun stuff to the power dynamic b/w them, and totally makes sense! when you repeatedly place your literal life in another person's hands over and over, that's gotta ~rewire your brain in some way so that they ~take up a significant chunk of your internal life

i like when they're bad for each other? when they each are most comfortable thinking of the other person as a weapon? and it's cool if they're openly, visibly, constantly obsessed with each other, but i'm equally if not more interested in an angle on them where they both have their separate lives but there is on some level an unresolved longing for the relief of the perfect, temporary cohesion they used to have with each other. they can't and won't ever resolve that and it's always going to sit there between them and ask questions neither of them can answer. it's not good, or tender, or kind, but. it was the thing it was.

i think of it as not dissimilar to the period of my life where i realized that i would have to put effort into being nice to people, and that was usually fine, but sometimes, fuck, i couldn't stop thinking about how good it would feel to be a bitch again. i know how to be cruel still. i know how to do this still. you know?

#chattering sparrow #'you know' i say. as if i have ever made a coherent tumblr post #anyway. now i'm curious about YOUR bsd thoughts #if you have any you would like to share

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ragamuffinsage · 7 months

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Edelbert and Dimidue were two of my first Fire Emblem Three Houses ships (yeah I have a type), and over the four years the game has been out I’ve noticed they get a very different treatment, fanwork-wise. Within the context of the story, both relationships are very different in terms of how the characters came to know each other, but specifically from a meta perspective, there’s a pretty obvious double standard. Edelgard and Dimitri both have significant positions of power over their vassals, and both of them do their best to treat them as equals regardless. They go out of their way to humanize them even while being surrounded by a society that would encourage otherwise. And while that’s not the norm of the culture they grew up in, and it reflects well on both of them as people that they defy that, it’s should still be considered basic human decency. Especially if you’re writing them in a relationship.

With most Edelbert fics I’ve read, Edelgard’s treatment of Hubert tends to be treated as more of a given. While their uneven power dynamic is often a point of conflict, Edelgard sees Hubert as a peer and a confidant, and she’s not usually portrayed as a saint for doing so. With Dimidue, I’ve seen a lot more fics that focus on how wonderful and giving Dimitri is for doing things for Dedue. And I’m not saying it isn’t meaningful or significant that Dimitri cares deeply about Dedue’s wellbeing. However, making the main focus on a fic about their relationship how much Dimitri does for Dedue- especially when Dedue is much more likely to be written as a satellite character than Hubert is- can feel like it’s playing off white savior tropes. And this goes double when everything Dedue does for Dimitri feels minimized in comparison.

Again, Dimitri is doing genuine good by standing up for Dedue and seeking justice for Duscur. And it’s work that the rest of Faerghus isn’t doing. The problem arises when their relationship is explored solely via the lens of Dimitri being the most amazing person just for wanting justice for a people subjugated under the kingdom that he will inherit. Reparations for Duscur should be a priority regardless of his personal relationship with Dedue. There’s also the issue of fewer writers focusing on everything Dedue does for Dimitri. He cares for his health. He fights for his legacy. In Crimson Flower, he literally gives up his humanity and dies for him. All while having not even a fraction of the societal power or resources Dimitri does. Even more egregious is when fic writers put so much emphasis on what Dimitri does for Duscur without going into everything Dedue canonically does for his own people in his endings.

The ironic part is Edelbert doesn’t actually need to be written as nuanced as it often is. It’s a relationship more inspired by medieval fantasy tropes than real world power imbalances. If you want to romanticize the hell out of their power dynamic or turn it in to a cut and dry sexy master-servant relationship, I won’t stop you. I don’t think it’s particularly in-character, but it’s not really playing on tropes that are actively harmful. Dimidue on the other hand needs to be written with more thought put into how these characters are being portrayed because their canon relationship is informed by racial politics that reflect the real world. The discrimination Dedue faces at the hands of Faerghus isn’t allegorical or fantastical; it’s a much more realistic portrayal of scapegoating and genocide than is typical for Fire Emblem as a series.

There’s a lot of great Dimidue content out there, but it’s uncomfortable to see fics and headcanons that essentially boil down to “isn’t it sweet and romantic that Dimitri thinks racism is bad?” get attention when Dedue constantly has his importance to the narrative- and to Dimitri- diminished.

I’d love to get other people’s thoughts on this too; just please don’t turn this into a generic house discourse post. I have my own options on the different houses, but this isn’t meant to be a petty ‘beagles stans are better writers than blions stans’ post or whatever. It’s a post about how characters of color and stories that don’t center a white European narrative tend to get shafted by fandom across the board.

#thia admittedly started as me vauging about a headcanon post that made me do a double take #but most of this stuff I’ve been thinking about for years #metatag #<- gonna start tagging these longer posts

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spaceyshenanigans · 3 years

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i'm fairly new to the markiplier fandom and i'm finding out that there are some unspoken rules but i don't know what they are? could you please explain them?

Biggest unspoken rule: Don’t post things in #markiplier if you wouldn’t want mark to see/engage with the post. If you’re okay with the post being seen by mark, then have fun.

Other general rules:

If you see fanworks (art, writing, etc) you like, reblog them!

Mark is most likely to be on tumblr reblogging memes after he’s either posted a video he’s really excited about or if he’s done a big goof

We the fans bully mark sometimes and he sometimes bullies us. It’s all light hearted and in good fun.

Mark’s life and relationships outside YouTube are private, and it’s considered rude speculate or assume.

Sometimes during charity events or the current ‘Bigass Bake Sale’, you might see some posts encouraging people to donate or become a member. The unspoken part about these posts is that they are directed only at people who are financially able to spend money.

If you have an actual issue involving mark, tagging him in posts isn’t the best way to contact him. You’re better off contacting one of his moderators on tumblr/twitter/discord to discuss the issue. (That said, mods are NOT there to pass on messages to creators. Please only contact them if you have a serious issue.)

RPF (basically refers to ships involving real people like mark and his friends) should not be put into the main tag ever. A lot of people in the fandom, myself included, are uncomfortable with it, and whenever someone does post it in the main tag, people get very angry.

As far as engaging in the fandom goes, we try to stay light hearted on most days, especially the people that make memes n stuff. If there’s a person making posts in the tag that seem real negative and just make you uncomfortable, my mentality is block and move on.

Thanks for the ask! I know theses rules can be pretty difficult to learn when your new, and it’s easy for some of the older fandom members like me to forget how hard it was at the beginning. If anyone else has some unspoken rules I forgot to list, feel free to reblog!

#markiplier #asks #2/21

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dreamteamspace · 3 years

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We hit 400 so here’s a- ✨ DREAM APPRECIATION ESSAY ✨

(by Yours Truly. Much thanks to the one, innocent anon who just wanted to ask a small talk question but hit my serotonin-providing hyperfixation.)

1. Self-esteem

I love the way he’s confident in his abilities when it’s become such a “trend” to either be completely and utterly self-depricating about your own skills out of fear of being labelled an asshole or overconfident nowadays.

At the same time you can still tell he doesn’t want to pull anyone down ever, and will always be really careful with that and take every oppertunity to lift up the people around him. Dream has a very emotional voice that gives him away a lot, so you can really tell he genuinely admires the people around him and he’s never afraid to say that they could totally easily beat him in something if he doesn’t have practice with it.

He tends to be a bit too hard on himself, so his friends always encourage him in his abilities, and that’s just. So nice. He celebrates his victories! He gets so so excited and happy when he wins in the manhunts, and I think celebrating your hard-earned victories isn’t something that should be villanized.

He won, and we should KNOW by now that doesn’t mean he thinks he’s somehow better than everyone. He has a pretty good eye on his abilities, and that allows him to really use them to the max.

2. Morality

He isn’t afraid to change the game! His adhd picks out a Cool New Thing and he just goes, You know what? Why not! His adhd goes “do this thing repeatedly another 3847 times” and he’s like, yeah sure!

Nobody expected him to release a song, but he just went for it! He’s been speedrunning so much, but he isn’t afraid to stream it every day 5 days in a row for hours while his friends bicker in the background.

Dream genuinely does the things he finds fun, but at the same time puts in so much effort to make them good and entertaining to watch and never forgets about his viewers.

He’s kidfriendly because he wants to be! Fame-wise, at this point he could definitly swear more if he wanted to (and he does when in other people’s content who don’t care about swearing), but despite that he doesn’t swear on his main because he wants his content to be accessable for everyone.

Sure, on one hand it could be for clout/money, but consider: Dream doesn’t stream the DSMP because he doesn’t want to take attention away from other people. He participates in the videos of his friends. He lets compilation channels and the like do whatever they want and even monetize his content. He lets his friends stream Road Trip on twitch as much as they want for free.

Dream doesn’t not swear just for his fanbase, but he does it because he has so so much respect for people. No matter how high he goes, he’s always consciously focused on respecting and admiring the people around him.

He has genuine respect for creators so much smaller than him, and he has respect for people in his fanbase that are younger than him. He isn’t afraid to go against the norm and STAND for that, either (see the video where he defends his stans).

And he defends his friends so much too! So much so it could almost be a little bit of a flaw sometimes, but I feel like he truly wants to learn from his mistakes. He apologizes for things even when nobody asked him to, and that just shows that he does it out of genuine guilt and fear of hurting someone.

He’s always seemed like someone who is genuinely willing to change to be a better version of himself, who isn’t afraid to challenge what he thinks and what other people think and what the norm thinks in order to improve everything for everyone.

Dream also doesn’t let any of the fame get to his head! As I said before - he’s confident in the things he’s good at, but in a way that doesn’t pull other people down, and he still remains firmly admirable of other people.

And even when OTHER people let fame get to their head (it was a while ago, but there was a video he made about five block jumps, where he added in a clip of a video of another guy doing it complete with credit and link etc. The guy was 100% alright with it at first, but when his video started getting more views because Dream’s video blew up, he started accusing Dream of “stealing” his content (when dozens of other videos of the 5 block jump already existed, and Dream could’ve just put in a clip of himself doing the jump)),,, but he insisted in his reponse that fame gets to people’s heads sometimes, nobody should blame anybody, he genuinely was never upset at him and just said that this just... happens sometimes.

He’s a very forgiving person all around, in part due to being willing to challenge his own norms and give people the benefit of the doubt JUST in case he’s wrong. He lets people enjoy things so long as they aren’t hurting anybody, like allowing people to ship him w people who are also alright with shipping, but at the same time taking a hard stance on, say, how shipping minors is absolutely wrong and should not be done ever (and he’s right).

3. Fandom

He appreciates said fanart and fanworks as well! He thinks dnf fanart is cool and he even appreciates the fanfic part of his fandom, something many ccs wish to ignore or forget it exists altogether (and it IS ofc in their right to do so or be uncomfortable with such content!), but Dream sees the work put into it and how people find connections and friendships through the fandom and appreciates it all the same.

He loves his fandom. So much. But not in the overdone, fake-feeling way I’ve seen other ccs be,,,, he’s just. Quiet and shy and genuine about it but not afraid to defend it.

He’s said before - and I QUOTE - “If you send hate to people or have sent hate to people, in the form of hateful comments or DMs, you aren’t welcome in my fandom. You’re no fan of mine”, which is the HOTTEST take he’s ever uttered and I love that. He really just went and said that. And he’s right. I like that despite how he’s usually more held back and waits things out before taking a stance, he chose this topic to really take a hard stance on and not budge and stick to it.

Pmbata has also said that he believes his fans have his back no matter what!! And that he really loves them a lot!!! And I am!! Emotional!!!!

4. ND/Adhd

He has adhd which is something I relate to personally (I have it as well sdlkfj). He gets excited sometimes!! I love how he shows being fidgety in mc, always pacing and parcouring around,, the way that in manhunts you can SEE when he’s thinking or bouncing back and forth between two options,,, or the way he gets close to people in mc to laugh with them.... He shows so much with his movements by them being quick and daring and calculated (and it’s especially hilarious to watch other people react to it in the video “mc but three people control one player”, where he’s the one moving and Sapnap and George will gasp or go “Dream!!” in surprise when Dream was THIS close to falling off a ledge, but he just laughs sdlkfjsdf).

When he’s not moving around he stands perfectly, perfectly still (which, idk if thats what all adhd ppl have, but I know I have something similar? Like when I’m nervous I’ll sometimes just. Freeze in place. No movement at all). He’s just relatable sdkjf.

There was one Manhunt extra scenes where he,,,,, stims by clapping,,,,,, the lil excited clap in the background,,, I’m gonna cry. I’m so soft for excited Dream that one is such a comfort clip for me!

He also tends to stim by getting under trap doors and then jumping back out of them, or jumping up a block and then walking back down over and over (especially noticable in The Village Went Mad tftsmp episode, where they were all discussing who the murderer could be and he was the only one moving, hopping up the log and then running back down again).

Also it is. Really Soft when he starts rambling and overexplaining something. What’s even better is that George, who is usually present at such moments, will laugh a little at his antics, and Dream will automatically laugh with him.

5. Rp/Uplifting other ccs

Dream wasn’t all THAT into the rp at first, but his server has been so strongly supporting and giving attention to smaller creators that he’s since completely rolled along with it. Being a villain in the RP is a difficult role because you will, inevitable, as much as it is just roleplay and all scripted, always get some amount of dislike from people for it.

Despite that, he’s basicly the main big villain on his own server where he let a bunch of theater kids beat him up in character and imprison him on his OWN SERVER. He wasn’t as into the rp at first, but has obviously been practicing and joins every Tales of the SMP when he can, despite getting zero clout for it.

What Dream also tends to do is find small content creators, see their talent and lift them high. His entire discord server is dedicated to give smaller ccs a place to grow, and when he first found Tubbo, Tommy, Ranboo, etc., they were much much smaller than they are now. He truly wanted to help them make it big.

He’s also added Foolish Shark and Hannah onto the SMP, both much smaller ccs (not tiny, but you get what I mean), allowing them to grow. He doesn’t stream on his OWN SERVER. He let himself get imprisoned to let the good guys win on his OWN. SERVER. He’s willing to play the villain and everything.

An interesting thing though! A lot of people used to/still do clown on Dream a bit for his sometimes uncertain acting,,, but when he’s around people he knows well (Sapnap and George, Tubbo and Tommy) we’ve seen him go ALL OUT. I have the theory Dream might be genuinely afraid to accidentally be mean to someone in character and have them misinterpret it sldkfjsdf,,, so he’s rly careful when he goes into the rp, and sometimes even when he’s in it he goes quiet, especially with other people around.

But also the fact that he needs time to feel comfortable around ppl is,, a mood,,, and adorable,,, sdlfkjsdf-

Apparently he’s also shared his youtube algorithm secrets with Tommy?? Which he had only shared with Sapnap and George before?? Dream took one look at that chaotic kid and immedietly adopted him as his little brother. He literally got up super early to rp the prison visit. Idk about ya’ll but I would die for someone first and get up horribly early for them second-

6. Friends!!

Dream?? Considers so so many people his friends?? And despite having so many friends, he also has his few closest friends (George and Sapnap) whom he would absolutely die for in a heartbeat. He WILL defend them with everything he has and loves them so so much.

He listens to them and really, truly wants them to succeed. He respects them so much and will go OFF about how good they actually are and how talented they are and how important they are to him.

I can’t even COVER everything about how much he is SOULMATES with Gorg. They live in each others heads rent-free. He mentions him all the time. They get!! So happy when they’re around each other!!! Their voices get so soft,,

And I can’t even BEGIN to explain the energy of Sapnap and Dream just moving together permanently. Imagine moving together with your best friend. Like, permanently. Into one house. They’re best friends Your Honor,,,,

Also,, remember the Techno and Dream rivalry? And Dream has recently said that he’s hesitant to make a serious manhunt against Techno because he doesn’t want there to be any feud between them or have them be compared to each other. He said that while he absolutely wanted nothing more than to beat Techno at first, now that he knows him better he just wants to be friends with him. He wants to be FRIENDS. With his, essentially, mc RIVAL. Friendly rival, but still. He doesn’t even wanna fight Techno or have ppl compare them cause he,,, wants to be friends with him,,,,

7. Vulnerability

What I feel like really sets Dream apart from some other ccs for me is that he’s willing to be vulnerable. He will tell George he loves him. He defends his friends. He sounds so, so genuine when he tells his fandom that he loves them.

What’s just really rare to see, especially in male ccs, is that vulnerability. It’s becoming more acceptable as time goes on, but it’s certainly not easy, and a lot of people become and stay long-term fans BECAUSE they can see how genuine he is.

I know Dream looks up to Mr. Beast a lot, for example, but honestly? I think he’s a little better than Mr. Beast. Because he feels more genuine, more bound to what he believes is right. I’m sure Mr. Beast isn’t a bad content creator! But ultimately they have different target audiences and I’m very glad Dream is the way he is.

Less of that insecure masculinity and more willing to be vulnerable, to care about things, to get emotional and to encourage and uplift the people around him.

8. Pure Brainrot

Green boi has nice deep calm soothing voice. Little shy laugh. Wheeze laugh. Gorg live in his head rent-free. He lov friends. He lov block game. He good at block game,,, a little shy but confident,,, big heart,,,, soft voice,,,,, rambles sometimes....

He also Gender. He’s so gender. I don’t know how else to describe it. I want That. Whatever That is. My gender is Dreamwastaken

#mcyt #mcytblr #dreamwastaken #dream #dream appreciation #long post #dreamteamspace speaks #space writes #yes this goes in my writing tag #this is Way too many words to only be in my normal tag #but how many dream apreciation essays have you written fear huh? Huh?? /lh #mr beast critical #adhd tw #adhd #just in case?

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ghosthan · 3 years

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what would you say are the differences between 616 Tony and MCU Tony? 🤔

Hi anon! Many people have talked about this and I'm certainly not the authority on the topic, but I’ll try my best to explain some of the major differences that I have noticed! Thank you for asking and I’m sorry it took me so long to answer you.

Important to note: neither version of Tony has had a totally consistent characterization. Depending on who you ask and which comics/movies they've consumed, they might give you a different answer here and not be wrong.

616 Tony is even harder to put into one box because his character has been around since Tales of Suspense in the 1950s. That’s a long time. Things have changed over time, under different writers, changing political atmospheres, and outside pop culture influence (including influence from the MCU, unfortunately, in recent years.) You get the picture. So I’ll be making some generalizations and try to be clear about which eras I’m speaking when I make these comparisons, but ultimately, if someone wanted to be contrarian, you could probably refute a lot of what I say here if you cherry pick canon. Which is fair enough! That’s sort of the fun of comics, there’s so much to choose from and something for everyone.

So here are some observations from me, under the ‘read more’.

1. Physical Appearance

This is sort of an easy one, but worth mentioning!

MCU Tony does not look like 616 Tony. RDJ is great, but he would not be most 616 fans’ casting choice on looks alone. MCU Tony is tan, a Malibu man, with brown hair and brown eyes, and RDJ has sort of round facial features (a funny sloped nose, big, round eyes, round forehead, not a particularly sharp or classically “superhero masculine” face.) As you may know, this lends well to certain fanworks and tropes, such as Tony having Bambi eyes.

Or Tiny Tony. He is not actually canonically small, but he's smaller in the MCU than in 616 and from what I can tell, a portion of fandom has latched onto that. He’s a grown man, but RDJ is pretty short, and of slighter build than 616 Tony. RDJ is 5′9, but they make him act in heels, and I believe his canon MCU height is 5′11. Another popular trope I’ve seen is shrinking Tony in fanfic/fanart for a dramatized height difference with Steve, making him weak or fragile; this is fine because everyone has their own taste, but for the official record, he’s a capable, strong guy! Especially in earlier stages of the MCU, in which he’s a bit younger. Tony isn’t just a brain; he carries out his plans with his own two hands! He builds his armor, he remodels his lab, he survives hand to hand combat when he doesn’t have the armor. Muscles!

616 Tony is 6′1 without armor and 6′6 in armor (making him taller than his 616 Steve counterpart in armor and very close to the same height out of armor!) 616 Tony is generally paler with black hair (sometimes the classic blue-black I love so much) and blue eyes, and it obviously depends on the artist, but he has a pretty typically ‘masculine’ face and build. Generally he is drawn with a squared jaw and a high bridged nose (such as in the Extremis storyline, or drawn by Marquez), but again, this varies from artist to artist! Here's some examples of 616 Tonys.

Wait, you might be saying, but I have seen comic panels where Tony has brown hair/brown eyes!

Yep. Due to a combination of forgetfulness, inconsistency, and the MCU bleeding into the general consciousness of the comics, sometimes Tony is randomly depicted in the image of RDJ, or if not in his image, at least visually inspired by the MCU-- hair color and style, eye color, dialogue, etc.

616 fans don’t typically love this; he’s very handsome when drawn this way, of course, (look at him!) But it isn’t really the same character.

Also, MCU Tony has (at least for some of his movies) a reactor built into his chest. While 616 Tony has, at times, been more or less physically connected/dependent to his tech, he doesn’t have the built in reactor (most generally speaking, there are times in comics when he temporarily has the tech built in, but this isn’t really the status quo.)

2. Relationship with parents/ family history

While it is definitely implied in the MCU that Howard was not a good father to Tony, (such as in Iron Man 2 when Tony says “You're talking about a man whose happiest day of his life was shipping me off to boarding school” and “He was cold, calculating, never told me he loved me, never even told me he liked me”), Tony has a different sort of attitude toward Howard in MCU than in 616. It’s kind of weird, and hard to discuss. To me, it seems implied that MCU Howard was emotionally abusive to Tony based on what Tony does say about his childhood, and yet, the films kind of randomly give Howard weird moments of “Well, he tried his best and deep down he loved me the whole time!” forgiveness. MCU has a Howard kink and I'm very cringe-face emoji about it.

For example, Iron Man 2 shows that old film reel of Howard talking about how Tony is the greatest thing he ever created, and in Endgame, when Tony goes back in time, he meets Howard and has a very weird interaction with him in which Howard declares he would do anything for his son, (to his deeply damaged son who is a new father himself.) Yet, for all his talk, it's his actions that speak, and his actions left Tony damaged, traumatized, and emotionally inept at forming healthy relationships. So.

Sorry. I’m a little bitter. I'm just uncomfortable with how they sort of set up an abuse history but then treated it kind of lightly and Howard gets off the hook as "well, he tried his best" without really acknowledging the hurt he caused.

Avengers: Endgame 2019

I won't go super in depth into the abuse stuff because it's a little touchy and could take up a lot of this post. But.

I’m not against any reconciliation and I do appreciate the fact that a lot of times, victims of abuse feel a desire to forgive and reconnect with their abuser-- my issue with the MCU depiction of Tony and Howard is that Tony never really gets the vindication of his abuse being recognized for what it was before he forgives Howard. To me, that’s not forgiveness as kind of... gaslighting himself that it wasn't as bad as he remembered his own experience being, because of a sense of nostalgia and grief. It’s not the same, and I have issues with it.

However, a lot of my opinion is based on subtext and it is just my opinion; with depictions of abuse, different people are going to react differently, and other people may have found these scenes touching and gotten something positive out of them, and that's totally fine too!

It’s also a bit difficult to talk about Tony’s relationship with Howard in 616, for a few reasons: shifting timelines, lots of canon that I have not read all of, and the fact that it really is difficult to sum up such a complicated relationship.

Right off the bat, I’ll address the basics. I used the same scene in another ask, and I think it's frequently cited in any meta regarding Howard, but in Iron Man Vol. 1, we see more into Tony’s childhood and see Howard verbally abusing his family, drunk, at the dinner table.

Iron Man Vol. 1 #285

We get this scene with adult Tony’s retrospective commentary on how his own issues that he blamed himself for were actually a cycle starting with his father, the insecurity and abuse and alcohol, and that he realizes how much this has influenced him. Both MCU Tony and 616 Tony have some form of “stop the cycle of shame” arcs, but I don’t really see how this works narratively in the MCU because Tony makes excuses for Howard and continues to blame himself for a lot of his own personal struggles, whereas I think there’s just a bit more nuance in 616.

But uh. This isn’t totally true, and in recent years, things got real weird. I choose to ignore this chapter of canon, but in the Dan Slott run, Tony Stark: Iron Man, Tony’s whole backstory gets imploded. For one thing, the little of Tony’s childhood it shows in a flashback is uh. Uh. Well, it’s certainly out of character compared with previous 616 material, depicting Tony as an overly confident poor sport.

Basically, Tony is adopted. Tony has an evil brother. Tony’s biological parents make an appearance, as do his ‘classic’ parents, Howard and Maria. It’s just weird. It’s kind of out there. I’m honestly not a huge fan of this and ignore a lot of it, but it is certainly a difference between MCU and 616.

3. Personality

I’m going to be very general. Both Tony’s have an outer self which they present to the public and an inner self, but they’re a bit different. Both Tony’s have struggled with self loathing, but I think MCU Tony’s actual self worth is a bit higher, even just at some points in time. Even if his ego is part of his facade, I think he does believe some amount of the “I’m awesome”, even if just when it applies to his own work/inventions/saving people. Not to say that these moments of fluctuating self esteem make him egotistical, but this combined with his egotistical act and snarky, non-stop sassy dialogue, he’s quite different in general personality from 616 Tony, who is much more reserved.

Some more recent iterations of 616 Tony have been adapted to reflect the snark of the MCU, but he’s not so snarky and he tends to approach things more seriously. This is not a dis on MCU Tony; I think MCU Tony uses false ego and excessive sassy jokes as a means to deflect and control, which I think is very interesting and it’s nice to see this explored more in depth in fic where you get to see the thought process behind the bravado. MCU Tony is a partier, a good times guy, especially during Iron Man 2, in which he really does disregard consequences to have fun (driving his race car, partying drunk in his suit, letting pretty girls play with the armor, shooting off repulsor blasts for fun in a crowded room); I’m not bashing MCU Tony-- I think he had psychologically understandable reasons for behaving this way, the man was dying-- but 616 Tony really doesn’t act this way generally, and I think it’s a personality difference more than a difference of one being “better.”

616 Tony handles his stress differently, and they just have different psychological patterns, I think. I’m coming up kind of blank trying to think of a good comparable 616 arc, (sorry, I’m brain dead) but a less-than-perfect example might be Tony’s brain delete arc; he’s “dying”, like in Iron Man 2 he knows his expiration date, (circumstances are quite a bit different), but he throws himself more into work, into a cause, and as he really fall apart, we see him spiral into self doubt, remorse, fear, and insecurity, sort of falling into himself with lots of manly tears and calling himself pathetic.

(Some things happen in this arc that a lot of people find Gross. I also find these events gross. But. I don’t count the sex in “World’s Most Wanted” as partying to cope with personal mortality, because I think both character involved are in “end of the world” mode, and it’s more seeking intimacy for comfort than partying to numb the hurt. Does this distinction make sense? No? Perfect, moving on.) 616 Tony is generally much more humble.

Whereas MCU Tony, I think, tries to outrun those feelings via parties or making dozens of new suits, or seeking comfort by comforting others! Gifting things to people, building things for people, highly personalized individual living quarters, teaching Nebula games and trying to show her a fun time when they were in peril together.

They have some traits in common, for sure! But canon being inconsistent both in the MCU and in 616, my observations aren’t the rule, because I’m kind of cherry picking and going based on limited memory. But off the top of my head, they’re both extravagant gift givers! Recall Tony gifting Pepper the giant bunny in Iron Man 3, and compare this with Tony carrying a mile high pile of Christmas gifts after shopping with Rumiko in Iron Man Vol. #3.

I would say that while both Tony Starks are considered humanitarians, this is much more fleshed out and supported by canon in 616. Some examples of his philanthropy in the MCU: Tony makes charitable donations of art and money, Tony has an organization which provides disaster relief/cleanup which is referenced in Spider-Man Homecoming, Tony has an MIT grant for students and staff members. But to be honest, a lot of his MCU philanthropy is only mentioned in passing, or is largely handled by other people on his behalf and on his dollar.

In 616, we see Tony using charity almost as a means of therapy: it’s something he does very privately, not in the public eye (at least, not always), and it’s something deeply personal to him. One example that immediately comes to mind is Tony’s home for disadvantaged girls in Iron Man Vol. 3, and we see scenes of Tony basically driving the streets at night, picking up underage prostitutes, feeding them and listening to their stories before bringing them to a home he’s established where he knows all the residents, and provides educational opportunities and protection.

Another more recent example in canon that the Tony fandom loves is that Tony canonically holds babies at an orphanage. Sorry I don’t have panels for all of this, this section got long and I have been working on answering this ask in a very scattered way for a very long time.

Both Tony’s are romantics, I literally could write a whole other post about their canon love life similarities and differences, but I will briefly say that while MCU Tony does the long on and off, and eventual ultimate commitment, to Pepper Potts, 616 Tony is a serial monogamist; he is always falling in love, and he’s definitely not a playboy, but the hero-ing, self loathing, and lifestyle make it very hard for him to keep anyone in his life, and most of his partners fuck his life up and betray him. Needless to say, 616 Tony is not married, and certainly not to Pepper Potts.

Oh, and I guess this is so obvious I almost forgot to include it, but a huge similarity between both iterations of Tony is that they both constantly use their own life as a bargaining chip, and will pretty much die for anything. Or be the bad guy for a good reason (at least, in his own mind... see Civil War, or Hickmanvengers; 616 Tony, especially, does not shy away from making the hard decisions, and this leads to a lot of guilt and tension in his relationships-- often with Steve because 616 Steve/Tony angst fans are well fed, I guess)

Remember that time Tony had Steve’s mind wiped because Tony felt that Steve’s inflexible morality might hinder the Illuminati’s ability to save the world? And it eats Tony up inside and erupts into a homicidal fight when Steve finally gets his memory back? Me too.

Tony Stark as a character is defined by sacrifice, both of his own life but also of his own happiness and reputation and conscience, I think, in a lot of ways, and we see this in many universes. I could go on about Tony’s propensity for sacrifice in the less obvious ways, because I think in terms of heroic sacrifice, Tony has done a lot that other heroes wouldn’t be able to do because of moral inflexibility and conflicting philosophical schools of thought; Tony really is the “whatever it takes” type, and often believes the ends justify the means if he deems a threat worse than the potential wrong that could be done in preventing the threat. We see this a little bit in the MCU in the creation of Ultron, and in Civil War with the Accords. But there’s a whole lot more going on there I don’t want to get into.

4. Alcohol

MCU Tony’s alcoholism is never really explicitly explored. He is shown drinking in Iron Man 1, and in Iron Man 2 he drinks a lot and makes a fool of himself publicly, but MCU Tony doesn’t get any specific narrative arc focused on his drinking, and if I recall correctly, I don’t think he ever refers to his drinking as alcoholism in the movies? Also, while his binge drinking and embarrassing behaviors ostensibly stop after the events of Iron Man 2, he is shown drinking on screen at least one other time after that which I can remember, and it wasn’t a “falling off the wagon” moment, and an alcoholic in recovery such as 616 Tony would not take a drink casually. This article sheds a little light on some decisions made about Tony and alcohol in the MCU.

Alcoholism is a huge part of 616 Tony’s personality, which I went a bit more into depth about in this post, so I won’t repeat myself too much.

5. Their relationships with the Iron Man armor

A few points here: MCU Tony is famous for the “I am Iron Man” line being repeated throughout the franchise after he blows his own secret in the end of the first movie. MCU Tony sees himself as one with Iron Man, and the suit is the tech that enables him to be this version of himself. He sees Tony Stark and Iron Man as inextricable: you cannot separate them, and his identity is public. He, as Tony Stark, is an Avenger.

You may remember MCU Tony’s induction into the Avengers; in Iron Man 2, Nick Fury is forming the Avengers and tasks the Black Widow with going undercover to assess Tony to be a part of a hypothetical initiative. “Iron Man yes, Tony Stark no” and the comments about Tony as a narcissist may be funny, but the fact is, the snark and erratic personality of MCU Tony at the time of the formation of the Avengers in the movies is not at all like the Tony of the comics, at the time of the Avengers being formed.

In 616, things are quite a bit different! Tony invents the Iron man armor to save himself (like in the MCU) and uses it for hero-ing, but in secret. He works very hard to protect his identity as Iron Man, and for a long time, as far as the world is concerned, Iron man is a mystery man piloting armor built by Tony, hired as Tony’s personal body guard, (hence the 616 Steve/Tony fandom’s proclivity for identity porn as a trope!) When the Avengers form, Iron Man is the Avenger, close friends with the Avengers, (particularly Steve!) and Tony Stark is just the benefactor of the Avengers, providing them with a place to live and finances with which to operate.

In the very early days, Tony did not have the “reactor” like in the MCU, but his chest plate did keep him alive, leading to some very dramatic shots of Tony charging up using a wall socket, lamenting the plight of a secret hero.

616 Tony, generally, and especially in some of these earlier comics, was quite reserved, rather serious, and very angsty, (in private of course.) He may be wealthy, but speaking generally, he’s much less ostentatious than MCU Tony, less of a show off, less into flashy things and grand gestures. Of course, this isn’t always true in the comics, and some iterations of Tony are more like this than others, but MCU Tony is showier, sillier, and more of a fun-times guy. Any MCU fan would find those panels quite contrary to the Tony Stark you know:

Iron Man 1

Iron Man 2

I think I would say that while MCU Tony sees himself and the Iron Man identity and the armor as all being inextricably connected, we see a bit more compartmentalization with 616 Tony, who pretends that the armor is a whole separate person for years when his identity was private, and we see instances in older and newer comics, in which Tony is uncomfortable with some aspect of himself as Iron Man (for instance, during the second drinking arc, Tony temporarily swears off being Iron Man entirely, or for another example, when Tony is in a comma and Tony AI exists during Secret Empire, Tony “lives” in the Iron Man suit, and I think this could be interpreted as a meta parallel to Steve during this arc; Steve has had some core aspect of his character inverted, Captain America becoming Captain Hydra, so Tony experiences a similar inversion-- Tony Stark and Iron Man are forcibly merged, in a way that Tony seems deeply uncomfortable with, if his digital drinking relapse is any indication. But I digress; sorry for the tangent.)

Okay this post is inexcusable long, and very, very tangential, and I don’t feel like I’ve really covered everything I wanted to. But it has been sitting in my inbox for too long and if I don’t post it now I never will, so I hope this long, rambling thing has been a little bit helpful to you! Thank you so much for asking, I had a lot of fun rambling about this.

If you want to read a similar post, but well written and organized, with other insights, this post by Sineala answers a similar question!

#Anonymous #han reads comics #han meta #meta #iron man #tony stark #616 tony stark #616 #mcu #long post #han speaks #ask #sorry this definitely gets more incomprehensible as it goes on but i have been writing and rewriting and editing and fretting about this #for so long that if i dont just post it i probably never will and i sunk too many hours into it #to throw it away now 😅#abuse tw #abuse #alcoholism tw #alcoholism

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qqueenofhades · 4 years

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The photo set you reblogged of Yusuf and Niccolo helping throughout time just filled me with so many happy feels and it made me realize that it seems so common in media with immortal couples that they take breaks from each other and reconnect after a few decades. Which is a great trope but seeing these two that seems to have been attached at the hip since the day they met just fills me with all the heart eyes.

(I haven't read your fanfics for them yet. I know I'm a bad fan but if it helps I havent been able to read anything since all this started but while writing this ask I got the feeling that all this rambling I spewed out is a big theme)

Hush. Bad fan nothing. We all are coping with this stupid, awful year in different ways, some of us by escaping into fandom and some of us being unable to engage with it and some of us doing both or anything else. You certainly don’t owe me or anyone any obligation to interact with our content, fic or otherwise. So just to have that there on the top. You’re good, hun. :)

ANYWAY, thank you for giving me a chance to meta a bit on the boys and their relationship and to have a window into what my brain looks like pretty much 24/7 these days. (I blame them.) I keep thinking about all the ways this couple is depicted in the TOG film and how lovely it was and how unusual it is for me to have an OTP where I actually love them in canon and don’t need to violently disavow it in order to create AU fan content with just the characters. (See: Timeless, Game of Thrones, pretty much any show I’ve hyperfixated on at some point.) I love AUs anyway, because that’s the way my brain works, but the fact that I can also enjoy canon just as much is rare for me and for a lot of us. I saw a post somewhere remarking on how the fanfic for Joe/Nicky isn’t fixing anything, which is usually the point of transformative fanworks: we take something that canon atrociously fucked up and fix it. But in this case, all our interpretations are based on actually appreciating the way they’re presented in canon and wanting to enjoy that and uphold it, and that -- especially with a couple like this one -- is shocking??

Like. Despite my historian gripes about the occasionally incongruous details for their graphic-novel backstories (which are the only things I HAVE fixed in my fics), I’m just... deeply appreciative of the care which everyone, writers and actors and all else, put into depicting Joe and Nicky and their relationship. And god YES, one of the things I love the absolute MOST is that they’re a loving, faithful, committed, happy married queer couple over centuries, and that seems to be the case for as long as they’ve known each other/ever since they got together. (See Booker’s “you and Nicky always had each other.”) These fools can’t sleep apart from each other even when they’re stuck on a freight train in the middle of nowhere, they flirt like teenagers at dinnertime and even when they’re strapped to gurneys in a mad-scientist laboratory, they make out to enrage bad guys and also because they’re just still that goddamn into each other after all this time.

I think it was Marwan Kenzari who pointed out that there’s simply no way to truly state the depth of their knowledge and devotion and commitment to each other. They’re 950 years old. They have known each other since they were in their thirties; they’ve been husbands for literal centuries. There is no way anyone else in the world could possibly come close to replicating the kind of bond they have with each other, and neither of them have ever had any inclination to look, because why would they? Especially with the fact that queer couples in media, even otherwise sympathetically portrayed ones, often have Drama and Third Parties and Promiscuity and whatever else (because of the tiresome old canard that Gays Equal Hypersexualized!), and Joe and Nicky don’t need or want ANY of that. There’s no urge to make their relationship a cheap source of soap-opera conflict. It’s the rock and the center and the core of both of their lives, and everything they do stems from that.

There have been some great metas/comments on how neither Joe and Nicky are sexualized, they dress like stay-at-home dads during quarantine (Marwan Kenzari and Luca Marinelli are both objectively gorgeous men, and they’re out there looking like that, god bless), and the viewer is never invited to goggle at or fetishize their relationship. There are no leering or exploitative camera angles on anyone, and their expressions of love aren’t posed or intended to titillate the audience, they’re just solidly embodied and natural and lived in. It’s never bothered to be stated clunkily in dialogue that they’re a couple; we just see them exchanging looks and smiles in the early part of the film, and then we see them spooning on the train after the mission in Sudan, which confirms it.

At every turn, the narrative celebrates the kindness and love shared by the Immortal Family, the individual characters, and Joe and Nicky, especially and explicitly in queer form. The villains of the film are also defined by how they react negatively to that love. @viridianpanther had a great meta on how Keane as a villain is especially set up to menace Joe and Nicky as the narrative representation of toxic masculinity, aggressive heterosexuality, and the usual “Kill Your Gays” trope that we’ve all come to wearily expect. But instead, after that scene where Joe and Nicky fight Keane, Nicky is shot and comes back to life in Joe’s arms rather than dying permanently like we probably all momentarily expected, and then Joe gets to FUCKIN’ BREAK THE NECK of the guy who enacted that violence.... good GOD. The first time I watched it, I almost couldn’t believe it was happening. (This goes for the whole film, but especially that scene.) Like... when do we get that?? When do we EVER get that???

Obviously, there are so many stereotypes, whether visually or in behavior or character traits, that could have been assigned to a gay Italian character (excessively dramatic, effeminate, fashionable, etc) or a gay Arabic/Muslim character (explicitly announcing He’s Not Like Those Muslims, having to actively reject his heritage to make him more palatable to westerners, being tormented over being gay, etc) and Joe and Nicky subscribe to none of those. I get very emotional about Joe referring to Nicky as the moon when he is lost during the truck scene partly because it’s SUCH a common motif in Arabic love poetry. To call someone your “moon” is a beautiful way to say they’re the light of your life, and since the Islamic calendar is obviously lunar and the holidays, months, and observances, are set by the phases of the moon, this also has a deeper religious significance.

I don’t know for sure if they did that on purpose, but it it’s a lovely and subtle way of showing us how Joe clearly doesn’t have an issue with being both queer AND Muslim, and is able to draw on both facets of that identity in a way that a lesser narrative would have denied him. And that is just really wonderful. Yes, we’re seeing these characters when they’ve had centuries to settle into themselves, but there are plenty of writers who would have forced those conflicts artificially to the surface, rather than letting them be long in the past. It’s the same way when you watch a film set in the medieval era, it wants you to know that it Is Set In The Medieval Era. Cue the filth, misogyny, racism, violence, etc! Rather than it being a lived-in reality, it has to be jarringly drawn attention to, and I’m just so glad they didn’t do that with Joe and Nicky. And for them to have met in the crusades and fallen in love??! Come on. That’s just rude. Rude to me, personally.

Anyway, this was a rather long-winded and feelsy way of saying that these characters are constructed, acted, and written organically in such a way that you hate to even THINK of them being separated, and it’s not because they can’t function without each other, but because they are two halves of a whole. We also see that the characters themselves can’t stand being forced apart: Joe’s freakout in the truck scene when Nicky briefly won’t wake up, Nicky making sure to tell Joe that he’s glad he’s awake in the lab, the whole post-Keane fight scene that I talked about above, the way Nicky fights ferociously to get to Joe when Merrick’s stabbing him, etc. For that to be given to the queer couple, where the strength of their love and devotion is reinforced as one of the emotional goals of the story, and for that queer couple to be written in the way that Joe and Nicky are, both individually and as a unit, is just so very rare.

Because yes, there’s plenty of drama and angst and pain in their lives, but there’s none at all in their relationship, and that’s what fans keep telling TV writers the whole time: they WANT to see the couple confront things as a unit, rather than being kept on tenterhooks the whole time and forced to go through manufactured or artificial drama. It would feel especially wrong for Joe and Nicky, who have known and loved each other for 900 years. The fact that their respective actors also put so much care and love into them is very obvious, and makes me feel even luckier that they’re played by people who clearly get them and honor them and know what they’re doing.

Basically: of course Joe and Nicky have been with each other the whole time, and of course we’re all drowning in feelings over it, and I feel very blessed that this ship exists, and I very much need the sequel ASAP. Thanks.

#the old guard meta #joe x nicky #immortal husbands #long post #roseoswiins #ask

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hopefulobjectmiracle · 2 years

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Klaine for the ship game! on the edge of my seat to see if you ship them or not uwu

angel, i hate to tell you, but...

klaine - ship it <3

putting the rest of the answer under a cut because apparently i don't know how to shut up when it comes to these two dorks.

1. What made you ship it?

i'd already seen clips of them before i watched the show, so i knew i'd like them before i even got to s2. as soon as blaine showed up, i was already hooked on their storyline, but i think what truly got me as hardcore invested in klaine as i am now is their 5B storyline. we got to see them face the trials and tribulations of a real relationship, and it was my first time seeing a queer ship being presented as so...real.

i was used to LGBT ships being stuck to the background and having no development, but this storyline was the exact opposite - they were in the spotlight for so much of the season and we got to see them go through so much together - and really made me love the ship because i finally felt like i'd found authentic queer rep rather than background fluff. 2. What are your favorite things about the ship?

so many things! the very first being that i fell in love with kurt’s character as i was watching season 1, and i was desperate for him to find that love that he'd been dreaming of, and as soon as blaine showed up and swept him off of his feet with teenage dream, i knew that blaine would make kurt as happy as i wanted him to feel. and he did just that!! and kurt makes blaine so happy as well, and i just love that for them :)

i also love that:

they're best friends first and foremost

the actors have brilliant chemistry

they're so supportive of each other

they're flawed but want to put in the effort to be together

they're so goofy and dorky together

kurt's family loves blaine

their duets are the best

...they just make me so happy :)

and as i mentioned above, i also love the way that they got to go through a real, full journey and we got to see every step of their story together, from their very first meeting to their happy ending as married, successful fathers. i'd never seen anything like this before, and i feel like finishing glee was final step in me fully accepting my sexuality because watching their relationship play out with all the ups and downs that are normally reserved for straight couples. their story helped me feel normal for the first time, and i will always be grateful to them for it.

oh, and one more thing - this fandom is also a huge part of why i love this ship. you guys are so creative and have spent so much time on fanfic and meta/analysis and fanart and gifsets, and going through all of those fanworks that were clearly made with so much love just made me love the couple even more. 3. Is there an unpopular opinion you have on your ship?

wow...i have so many:

they're not nearly as 'toxic' as people make them out to be, and they aren't even the most unhealthy couple on the show. they get too much hate for their flaws when imho said flaws made their story more compelling.

the fandom complains far too much about their screentime, and i find it really annoying how they're blamed for ships like brittana and samcedes not getting enough screentime when it was the writers' choice not to give those two more storylines, rather than it being klaine's fault. it just makes me sad that klaine is an easy scapegoat for them to blame the lack of content for other characters on, especially since they didn't even become a main couple until 5B and finchel was the ship that sucked up all the screentime in the first four seasons, not klaine.

their legacy and impact deserves to be respected as much as brittana's. i hate how this fandom has always reduced them to a ship for 12 year old straight girls to fetishize, especially since i know so many queer people who the ship has helped.

#evelyn answers stuff #ship ask game

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fromtheplanethexagon · 4 years

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the robot problem: a critical look at tobecky, 5 years late

hello wordgirl fandom i am back :) and i have a lot of thoughts that i never got around to expressing before i moved on from the show. so be aware that everything i'm saying is based on my experiences during the 2012-2016 era of the fandom & state of tumblr in general, and i am not familiar with more recent fan content.

it's been over five years since the show ended, and @ifbrd reminded me (along with some great analysis) that while tobecky was super popular since before the show technically started (thanks to the play date shorts), it's pretty unhealthy in a lot of ways that tend to be excused or flat out ignored in fanworks. i'd like to reflect on that a bit (a lot); specifically, how both the show and the fandom approached this enemies-to-lovers ship, and how easily this ship can slip into uncomfortable territory if we're careless about how we interpret the ship and create fan content of it.

i will admit, i'm mostly writing this as a response to past me and my old creations - though i moved on from the show as a whole years ago, i do like taking the time to reflect on old interests once in a while, and reevaluating my thoughts on them. and this ship is probably the biggest one that still lurks in the corners of my mind once in a while, so let's go.

cherish is the word: a short positive note before a much longer negative one

i wanted to start this essay off with some positivity, because i am going to be very negative after this. tobecky was, in some ways, cute. it's obvious from the very beginning that these two characters are on pretty equal ground, even if one of them isn't aware of it. and that's part of the fun - the irony of how unaware tobey is that his nemesis/crush/person that pretty much always wins against him is someone that he completely dismisses as incompetent. i want to point this out because honestly, in general i don't like enemies-to-lovers because a lot of them use a power imbalance within the dynamic, and i hate power imbalances, especially when it comes to actual life-or-death scenarios (at least, as much as cartoons can do that). in most episodes, becky is never actually forced to go along with his wishes. she's not held in a 'date' against her will, nor is she ever really outwitted by him. i bring this up because there is one huge, uncomfortable exception, which i will get to later.

another big plus to the ship is the fact that they just... get along? even when fighting? of course we get brief moments where they just hang out and talk about paintings or whatever, but i'm talking about how much they get each other, even if they don't realize it. like the word banter, for example. been there since day one. becky loves words, and while most other people in her life don't really care (ranging from 'eh, that's cool i guess' to her brother calling it annoying), tobey gives her a chance to show off and thus treats her as a worthy adversary as herself, not because of her more generic superpowers - something that we've seen in canon that she feels self-conscious about (see: her motivation in patch game). one of the less noticed examples, to me, is "it's your party and i'll cry if I want to", because it's just - okay. they both are excluded from a social event, and while it's obvious that tobey deals with it by destroying the city, it's also pretty obvious that becky also deals with her frustration by fighting in that battle. like, yes, realistically it's just objectively bad that he's destroying buildings. but they're also providing each other with a way to work through their frustrations, first by fighting and then by talking things out, and finally by hanging out together instead of dwelling on being excluded from the party.

so it makes a lot of sense to me that many tobecky fans gravitated towards writing far-in-the-future fic, usually by implying that some growth had taken place before starting to write the ship. (there are, as far as i'm aware, 2... maybe 3 exceptions, that take the time to attempt a real redemption for him, at least when i left the fandom.) because if you take away his worst moments, either by reasoning out that he was 10 years old and a mess, or that he was a cartoon character in a cartoon world where everyone's actions are over-the-top, or by just flat-out pretending that certain episodes never happened, there's some pretty solid ground to start a ship on.

go gadget go: we all do not see it, we simply close our eyes (review of canon)

when the show began, i was the same age as the characters. a lot of other people were, too - at least in my cohort of the fandom. i think it's pretty safe to say that many of us have fond memories of the show's earlier seasons, and held on to that interest as we got older, for whatever reasons. so like, not to be all 'as an OG fan...', but i remember seeing the shorts air for the first time in 2006. i have a diary entry in july of 2009 about how i, a 12yo with no concept of the idea of 'shipping', was disappointed in the new tobey episode because i wanted more tobecky interactions. (that was robo-camping, btw, lol.) and so i remember how exciting their rivalry felt, watching them as someone literally their exact same age, and then watching that again as a nostalgic 17yo, and then uh... growing up, to put it frankly, and realizing just how unhealthy most of their interactions were.

okay what i meant to say was, this section is an overview of the relationship's canon portrayal throughout the years.

first, we have early tobecky: this includes the shorts and the first few seasons. this is their classic relationship: he likes her and takes robots on rampages to get her attention, she majorly disapproves and has fun taking him down. we've all seen the show, you know what i'm talking about. his backhanded ways of trying to find out her identity often feature prominently in the episodes, which - sigh, i've mentioned this whole issue before, but it's kind of a grey area in the whole uncomfortable-factor thing, because while trying to find out her identity is VERY invasive, it's something that like... everyone in the show tries to do, even her canon crush (scoops). on the one hand, it's really not a great look, but on the other hand, this is a cartoon meant to parody a genre in which this trope is extremely common. so i just wanna say that i have Issues and Thoughts on this aspect of their relationship, but there are other things i find more important to discuss here.

second, we have late tobecky: this is seasons 7-8. this is... a very strange and huge shift from the previous dynamic, though it's not necessarily obvious. what i mean by that is that for some reason, the show writers made it so that half of tobey’s rampages have nothing to do with his crush on wordgirl, even though that used to be the sole reason for his villainy. seriously. we have the birthday episode, where he's upset because he feels left out; wg vs tobey vs the dentist, where he's mad that he has a cavity; and trustworthy tobey, where his robot goes on a rampage... after becky accidentally makes it malfunction. the two outliers are ‘guess who’s coming to thanksgiving dinner’ and ‘patch game’, but they still differ from previous seasons because 1) his destruction is isolated to a forest far away from the city, and 2) his motive is still to impress wordgirl, but his methods are relatively tame. also he completely gives up on the secret identity thing??? i may have missed some things but i think he straight up tells her 'yeah there's no way you're wordgirl, lol' and the subject is just dropped for the rest of the show.

i also want to include 'the robot problem' here, because it's one of two season 6 tobey episodes, and follows the 'doesn't destroy buildings to get her attention' pattern: in fact, he teams up with her to try and stop someone else from going on a rampage (even if his reasons are selfish, lol).

and finally. the other season 6 episode. we have go gadget go, the bane of my time spent in the fandom. because GGG is the single episode where tobey truly manages to take away her autonomy, and proceeds to abuse that power for an extended period of time, for his own amusement. it's bad. it's Very Bad. put in the context that it's a white boy doing this to an (ambiguously) brown girl, it's REALLY REALLY BAD. and the more i look back on it, tbh, the more weirded out i am that the show not only made it seem like she wasn't affected at all within the episode, it just... forgot about it (which is not unusual for shows and especially children’s shows, but WG does make some efforts to either retain continuity or create canon reasons for why things are forgotten about). it's the kind of thing that you can't excuse and honestly you can't redeem (like at this point, you gotta ask yourself why you're spending so much effort trying to redeem this guy when becky has several other possible ships that are nowhere near this unhealthy - violet, scoops, honestly even victoria if you want another hero/villain ship, my absolute fave rarepair rose, etc).

so if you want to still ship it you have to just pretend that it never happened. (i remember trying for weeks to write something exploring the aftermath of this episode, to try and make myself feel better about it, but the more i wrote the more i realized just how traumatic this event should've been, so i eventually just dropped it.) and i brought up my own timeline of experiences earlier to point out that this episode aired eight whole years after the show started. which means that when i saw it, even though i was a huge stickler for canon at the time, i'd built up my own idea of the show and characters strongly enough to go 'yeah, no, this episode sucks and i am going to pretend that it doesn't exist'. and i think a lot of other people did too, because i really saw like... no one mention it, ever, except for some rogue fanfics over on ff dot net that already liked dynamics like that.

because here's the thing, and i don't know if people nowadays are aware of it? but i'm 80% sure (cannot find a source, so the other 20% is that it was just a rumor) that the show was originally supposed to end after season 6. and even if it's a rumor, it makes a ton of sense, because we get 1) an 'ending' to tobecky, which is a bad one, 2) a permanent wordgirl identity reveal that significantly changes one of the major dynamics in the show, 3) an episode where TJ gets to work with wordgirl and get a nice potential ending for their sibling dynamic, 4) an episode where we see Two-Brains explore life without his henchmen... the list goes on, and idk how many of these are just major stretches. but the point is. if the show had ended there, that would've been a pretty solid ending for many things, including their relationship: aka, it would prove that it was only ever heading somewhere bad, and when tobey finally has his moment of triumph, he is truly evil about it. and this provides us fans who HATE go gadget go with an easy reason to dismiss it - we can say that it was an attempt to conclude things in a way that wouldn't have happened if the writers had known they'd get more time. but despite that... it is still a canon episode.

it is odd to me how dramatically the dynamic shifts after that, though, because we seriously go from 'worst case ever, tobecky is toxic, your ship is dead' to 'no actually they get along and hang out and get ice cream together and tobey isn't even pressuring her into it, she's happy to go along with it :)' like, immediately. i never knew much about the show writers, so i don't know if the writers changed in between these seasons, but i would absolutely not be surprised if they did.

the earlier episodes are definitely problematic as well (though they pale in comparison to GGG) but i think everyone who ships it is aware considering that tobey is, yknow, a villain. from memory, he destroys buildings to get her attention, lies to her about the level of danger that people are in to trick her into spending more time with him, blackmails her into reading his poetry, and he creates a robot based on her that’s supposed to be devoted to him (but of course, all of these things backfire). not great stuff of course, but like... he’s a villain, that’s the point of his character. and considering that he’s a child these are things that can be redeemed, if done thoughtfully.

anyway, to sum up this section, the show starts off with a pretty standard 'enemies with an unrequited crush' setup, takes a really dark turn for a single episode, and then for the rest of the show takes their dynamic in a direction that makes it much, much easier to ship. as long as you ignore a lot of previous content.

wordbot: where's becky's autonomy in all of this? (misogyny)

we've finally gotten to the fandom. i recognize that a lot of this is going to come across as hypocritical considering how active i used to be re: this ship, but like... i'm a very different person now. anyway. disclaimer i guess - i don't write this to accuse all tobecky shippers of being like this - i know a lot of us aren't/weren't! but boy do i have things to point out, so without further ado:

it is very hard to ship this without allowing some bit of misogyny to slip into it. very, very hard. the entire premise of the ship involves a girl falling in love with a boy that repeatedly pressures her to date him via threats to the safety of herself and people she cares about, which... it's 2020, i shouldn't have to explain why that's terrible & a terrible example to set for children (which is why i am glad they never made it canon, tbh). best-case fan content has tobey stop pressuring her and start working to redeem himself out of an actual change of heart, which leads to becky seeing him in a new light. worst-case fan content treats his incessant pressuring and sometimes outright threats as something romantic - and even worse, romantic to the point where he deserves her attention and love as a reward for not giving up or whatever. i did see this pretty frequently for a while, especially in the earlier 2010s (didn't read much, Not My Thing At All), but i don't feel like going into detail here because of how obviously problematic it is. one medium (but still bad) case is where the fan content makes him start his redemption, but treats her liking him back as a reward for not knocking buildings over anymore. another not great case is where she tries to fix him with her love, which is a very common and very dangerous romantic trope. both are just... so incredibly unfair to her.

in content where she tries to 'fix him'... yeah i feel like it's really obvious how misogynistic that is. girls and women should not feel responsible for the evil actions of men, plain and simple. idk what else to say here i just really hate that trope and hated it back then and it just sucks! so can we not do that anymore, thanks.

in content that treats her like a reward for good behavior, there really isn't much of an explanation for what she sees in him. if she just goes 'oh wow, you're good now, i am going to fall in love with you for it' the whole thing falls flat because it makes NO sense whatsoever. we get to hear so much about tobey and his feelings and why he likes her and how he feels about it, but where is that energy for becky? why does she choose to trust him, to spend time around him, what does she enjoy about his presence? where is her getting over scoops in the process of falling for tobey? where is her telling her friends about this, confiding in them, asking them for advice? where is her choice in the matter?

win a day with wordgirl: do you guys even like becky or do you just like the idea of her (misogyny... 2!)

it was pretty standard for all fandoms the early-mid 2010s, but that's still not a good excuse for why so many tobecky fanfictions centered specifically around tobey's feelings while refusing to give becky the same level of empathy and nuance. it is true that to ship them comfortably you have to redeem him to some degree, which means spending time figuring him out and trying to find ways to pull him to the light without feeling super OOC. but ships take two people??? and there was so much potential for fanfics to explore becky's complex feelings on the matter - because she is! complex! she's heroic and kind but she's petty and has a competitive streak, she easily befriends villains but also doesn't trust them and doesn't believe they can ever really change, she's the savior of an entire planet but has feelings of inadequacy as her civilian identity and struggles with feeling like she can be successful without superpowers, she's great at the straightforward meanings and uses of words and loves reading but struggles to write passages that aren't dry as hell, it can be easily headcannoned that she's neurodivergent (special interests, issues with fitting in with her peers, taking things very literally, etc)... seriously there is SO MUCH to explore about her character, and a lot of it comes into play when you add tobey into the mix (literally ALL of the things i mentioned are explored at some point using tobey as a parallel or foil), but i rarely saw fanfiction that explored her thoughts on things further than 'he's evil but... maybe good?' or 'he's evil but... i kind of like him anyway?'.

if you want her to fall for him while being a villain, explore it!! why does she go against her morals? does she lie to herself about it to feel better? does she feel like she has to 'fix him' as part of her superhero duties to the city, and if so, how does that affect her as she tries and fails to help him? does she fall for him when she believes that he's turning good, only to feel betrayed when he starts acting worse because he feels like he can get away with it? it's such a shame that fanworks spend so little time even considering these questions, and it is absolutely a product of how deeply misogyny is/was baked into how we approach media (especially back then).

tobey goes good: but wait, i thought this show was progressive (a conclusion, i guess)

ifbrd wrote a great meta recently about how the show is a bit misogynist, despite being progressive in several ways. honestly i don't have much to add, but i'd really recommend reading through this; it makes a lot of great observations about the ways that male and female characters are presented differently through the show

i have little to add, so i'd just like to conclude with a reflection on the ship from my current viewpoint. i do think part of the reason so many of us latched onto the ship, despite how obviously problematic it was, is that the show treats a lot of things that would be serious in real life as normal or even comedic - which is fine lol, i'm not going to pretend that it's not a show for little kids, so they have to keep the tone light.

but if we, as teens/adults, decide to engage with this content in a more realistic manner, we have to be prepared to confront how messed up so many of the things going on really are. and if you still want to ship it, there's nothing inherently wrong with that! there's a lot of interesting things to explore in this ship, no matter what stage of enemies-to-friends-to-lovers you write them at, and it can be really helpful to have a space where you can explore a dynamic such as this in fiction. (speaking from experience here tbh, writing some fic for them helped me deal with complicated feelings about some ex-longtime friends.)

so to write this ship at all means that there are canon issues that you need to deal with if you want to have them end up in a healthy relationship in any manner that makes sense (unless you create an AU where none of that is applicable, which, power to you then). and i’m not saying ‘write them with a healthy endgame or you’re Bad’, not at all lol. but at least please, please take a step back once in a while to examine the dynamic that you’re writing, and please be careful about whether you mean to be romanticizing whatever behaviors you end up portraying as good.

#wordgirl #becky botsford #tobey mccallister #tobecky #tobecky critical #has anyone ever used that tag before LMAO #anyway: i may come back and reword the ending because i am not totally happy with it #but wow this is so many words. so many. send help

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zutaralesbian · 3 years

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zutara and bamon!

Zutara:

Why I ship them (or why I do not): Ooooh Zutara. They're one of my oldest ships and one that I ALWAYS drift back to eventually when it comes to phases lol. I started shipping them back when I was about thirteen and they were one of my first major introductions to online fan works. The first time I watched ATLA it was when it was first airing and I was only a young kid, so I naturally just 'shipped' the canon pairings. But when I found out that Zutara was a thing I was intrigued by it and a bunch of meta and fics later, I was hooked. I just love the fire and water symbolism of them and the way they parallel each other. Their relationship development and the mutual understanding and respect they have for each other by the end of the show. There's just....so much interesting storytelling material for Zutara. And I think that's one of the biggest reasons they're so popular.

My favorite moment between them: I feel like this changes all the time but I think right now it would be the cave scene in Ba Sing Se. Despite Zuko's betrayal afterwards I just loved how these two people who were enemies for the entire time they've known each other bonded and found some understanding between each other. Also Katara offering to use the water from the oasis to heal Zuko's scar and Zuko letting her touch the scar???? Kill me. I feel like a lot of what I love about Zutara is represented in that scene alone.

My least favorite moment between them: I don't think there is a ZK scene that I hate. I mean, I don't like the infamous pirate scene in book 1 but I also think people make it out to be a lot worse than it actually was. (I've seen people compare it to the R*ylo scene where Kylo captures and tortures Rey and that is so undeserved and extra.)

The character I prefer: Zuko is my socially awkward son and I have a special love for him so he's definitely my personal fave. There aren't many character arcs that make me as emotional as his. BUT at the same time I know Katara is queen and she's definitely my second fave.

A fanfic idea for them that I would love to read or write: The post-war idea I have where Mai leaves Zuko for Ty Lee, Katara and Aang breakup amicably, and then Zuko and Katara fall for each other on a trip together to visit a healing Azula lives in my mind rent free.

What I would have changed about how canon handled them if I could: As amazing as canon Zutara done right would have been, I'm kind of okay with them not being canon? Mostly because with the exception of Sukka I think Bryke sucks at writing romance lmao. And I have more than enough ZK fanwork to keep me satisfied. BUT in a perfect world I would have had Zutara been implied as a future romance in the end and erased the K*taang and Ma*ko stuff. (The gaang are all literal children. I think it would have been more than fine if they ended the series all single.)

Bamon:

Why I ship them (or why I do not): They had great chemistry and were just a fun dynamic with a lot of potential (especially in the later seasons after they became friends.) I think their development from begrudging allies (and occasional enemies) to friends was fun to see and always an underrated dynamic in TVD and I would have loved to have seen it go all the way to lovers.

My favorite moment between them: Damon reciting the letter he wrote to Bonnie before he put himself in the coffin that she never read always gets me in the feels.

My least favorite moment between them: For some reason I can't really remember a specific scene but I know there were plenty in the early seasons that made me angry lol

The character I prefer: Oh definitely Bonnie. She was a queen that always deserved better than the way that shitty ass show treated her. She's the only reason I stuck with TVD as long as I did. I do admittedly have some kind of soft spot for Damon too though and I prefer him as a character over Stefan. But I completely understand why people hate him lmao 🥴

A fanfic idea for them that I would love to read or write: It's been soooo long since I've even thought about Bamon fic. But back in the day S6 canon divergents were my shit and I'd be down to reading one again if there are new ones out.

What I would have changed about how canon handled them if I could: Here's how I think I would have made them canon starting in S6: Damon and Bonnie would have had a frenemies with benefits kind of arrangement while they were stuck in the prison world together. (Honestly it's ridiculous to me that they didn't on the show. Two people with chemistry stuck in a prison world together with only each other for company, not expecting to escape and they never once fucked? Fffs). Once they're both free from the prison world there's this lingering Tension between them even though they obviously decided to stop having sex now that they were both free. Bonnie now feels off seeing Damon and Elena together and she eventually realizes it's because she's developed feelings for him. But she keeps it to herself out of loyalty to Elena and Damon has been obsessed with Elena for almost as long as Bonnie's known him so there's no way he'd feel the same anyway.

This would continue on for a while until we got to S7, where Damon decides to put himself in a coffin until Elena wakes up. I would have had part of his decision to do this be because he realized he has feelings for Bonnie and felt like he was betraying Elena by having them, so he ran.

Cut to Damon returning and Bonnie suddenly being in a relationship with Enzo. Damon would have been insanely jealous and this would have kicked off a Damon/Bonnie/Enzo triangle. Maybe Damon has some kind of talk with Stefan that makes him realize it's okay for him to want to be with Bonnie, that Elena wouldn't have wanted him to be miserable while she was gone. The triangle would have eventually ended with Bonnie/Enzo breaking up and Damon/Bonnie getting together. (And the 'Dear Bonnie' scene would have been re-written to be a reveal that Damon confessed to being in love with Bonnie and not knowing what to do about it in the letter). We would have then seen Damon and Bonnie as a couple throughout the entirety of S8, with the finale having the implication that Damon was going to stay with Bonnie throughout her whole human life and then one day in the far future reconcile with Elena. (Basically the same way the Will/Tessa/Jem situation was in The Infernal Devices.) What really sucks is that the TVD writers could have EASILY done something like this if they weren't cowards.

Thanks! :)

#zutara #bamon #mericatblackwood #answered #long post /

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phoenixyfriend · 3 years

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The MILFnevka AU

Once again something that was brainstormed en masse on the GG fanworks server.

I was... very much spearheading this one, but I dragged in @professorsparklepants for a lot, because Anevka, as well as input from @fenerismoon, @purronronner, @gelpenss, and @whirlibird. The original conversation took place mid-September of 2019.

AU where Tarvek's side of the family squeezed in an extra generation or so.

Aaronev was still Lu's generation, but he had Anevka young, and she was an only child who was already an adult by the time Lu disappeared. As a result, Aaronev let her married before she ended up in the machine (because he wasn’t desperate yet), and he couldn't risk drawing the attention by the time Agatha’s gen is being born.

So instead of being Tarvek's SISTER, she's his MOM.

Anevka formed her own faction, separate from the Aaronev and vaguely aligned with Terabithia’s.

She insisted Martellus and his branch hang out with Tarvek because being an only child is lonely, and also it keeps Tarvek out of his grandfather's sights and vague plans of body-hopping.

She is a Protective Momma who is a little TOO down with murdering anyone who threatens her child.

Agatha: you're just going to listen to your evil mom? Because no offense but that's worked out really bad for me so far. Tarvek: She's not EVIL, just... Valois... anyway the Baron knows what she's like and mostly he just rolls his eyes and tries to keep her away from Queen DuPree.

Anevka is definitely the mom that uses her position as mother of the king/heir to stockpile as much power as possible and control everything behind the scenes. Tarvek is currently trying to undermine this and wrestle back control as secretly as possible.

Wine mom with eighty hidden stabbing implements.

When Agatha is discovered, Anevka still kills her dad, but it's not like she can steal Agatha's voice in this AU, so she just settles for aggressively matchmaking her with Tarvek.

Anevka's managed to rein her dad in, mostly, because she's a powerful spark with an Undefined Husband who nonetheless has enough good connections to cause a ruckus if he finds out about the Summoning Throne, and he's too sparky to wasp.

This did lead to his early death and no siblings for Tarvek, but not before Anevka managed to fight her dad down to ONLY trying to throne the girls who were legitimately likely to be Agatha.

And then Agatha's in Sturmhalten and Anevka's just like. Well. Time for plan A. And kills her dad.

Regarding Gil... She kinda wants to pat him on the head and tell him to try harder.

I'm not wholly convinced Tarvek got kicked off of Castle Wulfenbach, depending on how Anevka married and decided to approach things. She might have warned Tarvek to AVOID stealing information, even, if she was worried about Aaronev trying to do something.

Less "do whatever you can to help us gain power" and more "do whatever you can to stay out of Sturmhalten."

Tarvek: My mom is a bitch and I love her so much

Klaus hates it when Anevka comes to CW because she acts like some unholy cross between Lucrezia, Terabithia, and Zantabraxus and she keeps hitting on his top enforcers but with knives and pretty dresses.

Unstoppable Divorce energies

Anevka: Do you like my new dress? Klaus: Your bodice is far too low cut, please stop visiting me dressed like my ex. I'm the same age as your father. Anevka: I know, it's really fun to watch you suffer as you fail to resist the urge to tell me to put on a sweater.

Tarvek: MOTHER YOU'RE EMBARRASSING ME IN FRONT OF ALL MY FRIENDS PLEASE STOP HITTING ON THE BARON AURGH. Anevka: I'm not HITTING on him, I'm trying to make his face turn puce. Anevka: I am, however, hitting on Von Pinn. She looks like she knows how to have fun. Tarvek: MOTHER.

Tarvek, to Gil: the baron can't be your dad, he's old enough to be your grandfather. Gil: He’s at a solid age for both.

Anevka and Klaus have zero actual attraction to each other but there's definitely A Dynamic that's eerily reminiscent of his relationship with Bang, with slightly less "I did a violence, be proud of me" and slightly more "I did a sexy and/or politics, be proud of me."

Tarvek: I have a problem. Gil: What's up? Tarvek: All of our friends want to fuck my mom. Zulenna: I don't. Tarvek: That's because she used to put you in time-out when we were five.

Anevka is prime Dangerous Widow material. She didn't actually kill her husband but a hell of a lot of people think she did.

Seffie thinks her Auntie 'Nevka is the COOLEST

Anevka having an intermittent fling with that "darlingly stupid young hero, Tryggvassen" makes me laugh way too hard and also dips into my nonsense love of Otharnevka.

At one point we did sidle over into “what if Single Father KB tho”

Like they met at some point on vacation while the kids were still kids, which does lose us the “Anevka aggressively ships her kid with Agatha” thing, so I’m not sticking with this but there’s some hella fun tidbits.

Anevka: Guess what. Klaus, very tired: What. Anevka: I'm getting married. Klaus: Again? Good for you. I hope this one lives longer. Anevka: He has the same name as you. Klaus: Get out of my house.

KB isn't a widower, things are just complicated and everyone blames Lu. There's time travel involved, of course.

"So your daughter--" "Sister." "...how--" "Just... just blame my mother."

He's LEGALLY Agatha's dad, maybe? Their dynamic is parent-child. Just, you know, as far as blood goes...

Anevka wants KB to help her bag Othar again. KB thinks she means finally killing him. Anevka: I might. Haven't decided yet.

Overall, though, including KB is too complicated without undermining the entire premise I want. Which is mostly canon but Anevka is Tarvek's embarrassing, mysterious, prone-to-assassination mother.

Seriously though, the entire attraction here is Anevka having the Dangerous Widow Whom No Man Can Tie Down vibe

She's a solo act. Some flings, sure, but overall? Chaos. Refined, elegant chaos.

Anevka as Bang’s sugar mom was suggested. We were obviously all on board.

Bang doesn’t need a sugar mom, but it makes the vein in Klaus's forehead throb, and that's very important.

Bang absolutely tries to get Tarvek to call her “mom” while she’s ‘dating’ Anevka. One time he does call her that and it throws her for SUCH A LOOP because no wrong.

Anevka occasionally daydreams of a world where she could have both Othar and Bang at the same time without them IMMEDIATELY trying to kill each other. Only occasionally, though, she has evidence to plant and blood to spill.

BACK TO ANEVKA SHIPPING HER KID WITH HIS POLITICALLY-APPROPRIATE CRUSH.

Anevka: Oh look, my future daughter-in-law. Tarvek, tired: Mother, she doesn't like me. Anevka: Whyever not? You're clever, handsome, politically apt, charming, sensitive, heir to a throne, you are EVERYTHING a maiden could wish for. Tarvek: You just think that because you're my mom. Agatha: No, no, she's not wrong. You're just not someone I trust. At all. Especially since you say you've been a honeypot before. Anevka: See? A simple hurdle, dear, I'm sure you could whip him into shape in no time. I could even loan you the whip. And the harness, perh-- Tarvek: MOTHER.

Anevka sends Tarvek out with Othar for “field trips.”

It’s great!! Multi-purpose! Absolutely helps boost Tarvek’s image if he’s associated with Known Hero, gets Othar out of her hair for a little bit, sometimes he can be pointed in a direction that’s useful to her.

Othar refers to this outings as “stepfather-stepson bonding times.” Tarvek absolutely hates it. Detests it, really.

Somehow something goes wrong and like 50% of the time and he ends up getting accused of murder, probably.

It’s so unfair. Especially since of the two of them, Othar is more likely to murder than him. (It’s because everyone knows what those Valois types are like, and Othar is a hero.)

Gil: What's so embarrassing about your mom? Your mom's nice. (To me.)

She gives him head pats and lollipops. His own dad certainly never gives him head pats OR lollipops.

Anevka: Well I WAS going to push him towards dear little Seffie, but he seems to be quite enamored with YOU, darling. Tarvek: Mother, PLEASE stop getting invested in my love life.

Anevka’s job is to meddle, he’s lucky she isn’t drawing up contracts and going Full Arrangement.

I also love the idea of Anevka having one of those "sunshine embodied anime mom" smiles as she says "Oh Tarvek, dear, look at all your little friends!"

She's genuinely enthused but Klaus is heavily disturbed by Anevka smiling like that.

"Is she going to sacrifice them?" "Uh, no, it isn't Sunday."

Human sacrifice is actually garish and passe these days, haven’t you heard?

Just imagining one of those Stately Child and Parent portraits with Anevka and Tarvek here.

When Tarvek was born, Anevka has an "I've only had my son for an hour and a half" moment... and then just shrugged and rolled with it.

Anevka "Hot Mom" Sturmvoraus is one of the MANY banes of Klaus's existence, but she's definitely one of the friendliest on the list... as much as he may resent that, at times.

Anevka: Is the Baron in? Boris: Actually... [Crashing noise] Boris: He just left. Anevka, pulling on the rocket boots she stole from Othar and heading towards the broken window leading to the outside of the ship: That's alright, I'll catch up.

(I love how Anevka's name just lends itself so well to AU portmanteaus.)

Anevka definitely susses out Gil's identity but she doesn't actually DO anything about it other than angling for Useful Connections.

She's always telling Tarvek to bring his friend along, and Klaus doesn't want Gil anywhere near that family but he doesn't want it to look like he has any particular interest in Gil.

Imagine Klaus actually encouraging Gil to persue Agatha with the idea that it will put some distance between Gil and "that damn woman and her spawn." Anevka for her part is pushing Agatha towards Tarvek. Meanwhile the three of them are working it out between themselves.

She just has This Energy, folks:

Tarvek: Oh no. Theo: Whats the matter? That's your mom, right? Tarvek: Oh NO, she's wearing her 'NEWLY WIDOWED BUT OUT ON THE PROWL' OUTFIT Theo: ????? She hasn’t been widowed- Tarvek: SHES AFTER THE BARON AND I'M GOING TO DIE OF EMBARRASSMENT, THEO

The one thing here is that Anevka's not into Klaus and he's not into her but by GOD is she going to fuck with his head about it.

She’s just doing this for the Big Dick Energy of trying to Get Baron Wulfenbach.

Embarrassing mom of the deadliest degree.

Tarvek: YOU’RE GOING TO RUIN MY LIFE. Anevka: Don't be so dramatic, let your mother have a bit of fun. Besides, he's not expelling you anymore, is he? Tarvek: I almost wish he was-

Also Gil and Tarvek reconciling early on due to the immense power of being Embarrassed By Your Parents.

Anevka and Klaus getting increasingly bitchy at each other at dinner, and Tarvek and Gil are just. Bright red and glowering at them.

They’re DESTROYING their COOL TEEN CRED.

Tarvek doesn't ever wants to marry a woman who has been married before, not because of some weird distaste of so-called "sloppy seconds," but rather that he's just scared that they're going to be like his mom, and planning to kill him for his money.

Tarvek, waking up in the middle of the night: What if they really do get married and I have to have Gil as a stepbrother. Tarvek: (screams internally for a few hours)

Anevka is also that Sailor J contouring video

While Otharnevka is... this thing

Some more relevant Vibes: Divorce Court Half-Mourning Upper East Side Widow

Everyone always assumed she had murdered her husband. It was a natural assumption, but ultimately wrong. She had had plans in place to kill him if the need arose, but in the end she hadn’t needed them.

Most people grossly underestimated how complicated it was to arrange for someone to be t-boned by a semi carrying flammable chemicals.

Othar as Anevka's second trophy husband and Tarvek's annoying stepdad has a very specific energy.

That energy is at least 20% "the lovebirds take anniversary honeymoons every year" and 60% "Tarvek hates being in the room with them because they're gross and embarrassing."

This is partly fun because Othar being Tarvek’s stepdad is... a lot.

But honestly, I'm also just enjoying cougar Anevka with Trophy Husband Othar. They're actually in love!!! BUT. Cougar with a trophy husband.

Anevka makes sly comments about Othar and Klaus having sexual tension.

Also I have headcanons about NB Tarvek and like

I think she'd be supportive up until the point of "you want to be Storm King, don't you?"

Less "this isn't natural and you shouldn't be this way" and more "this is going to cause you trouble due to social norms."

"Keep it under wraps until your throne is secure, then you can come out in a blaze of glory." No dresses in public until you're king, then do whatever you want. After all, “Your Majesty” is gender neutral.

Anevka caught Tarvek playing dressup in her closet one time and just criticized the color relationships.

And you must try to avoid wearing that particular shade at all, my dear, it really doesn't look imperial.

#Anevka Sturmvoraus #Girl Genius #Tarvek Sturmvoraus #Klaus Wulfenbach #Gilgamesh Wulfenbach #Othar Tryggvassen #Agatha Heterodyne #Otharnevka #GG OT3 #Phoenix Posts

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haloud · 4 years

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michael guerin loves alex manes

So there’s been a narrative within the fandom ever since the s1 hiatus that Michael hasn’t been shown to love Alex like Alex loves him, that Michael never does anything for Alex, that Michael never makes himself available. I couldn’t disagree more. So here’s a list from season 1.

Michael:

Has a picture of them together and keeps it in a special box along with pictures of his family and has for 10 years

Kisses him at the reunion (after asking if Alex wants him to leave and giving him a chance to say no to the kiss.)

Gives him massive puppy eyes across a crowded bar after Isobel asks him if there’s anyone he would sacrifice everything for, which Alex sees, acknowledges with a lingering glance, then deliberately looks away.

“For me, nothing’s changed” “I never look away, not really”

Kisses him again

Literally everything about their scene in bed in 1x03, from the way he says “you stayed” to the way his mouth opens under Alex’s thumb to the reverent way he touches his leg

Wants his sister to know he and Alex are together but honors Alex’s refusal even though he’s hurt by it

Says he’d hate Max for sending Alex away in a direct comparison to Max’s fury at him and Isobel sending Liz away (aka saying he loves Alex the same way Max loves Liz)

At prom, he breaks up Alex’s fight with Kyle and, eyes only for Alex, tenderly asks if he’s okay

Opens up to Alex about how music makes him feel—the only person Michael ever seems to open up to about this part of himself

Kisses him in the UFO Emporium

“[I’ve never done this] with anyone I’ve liked as much as I like you”

Bodily defends Alex from a hammer-wielding Jesse and ends up permanently (or whatever -_-) injured from it

Tries to approach Alex in the bar in 1x09 after Alex hasn’t spoken to him for almost two months with no explanation. Tries a second time to talk to him/get him to open up until Alex shuts him down.

He says yes when Alex says Michael loved him for a long time

“We just connected like something—” “Cosmic.”

Opens up to Alex about his profoundly abusive childhood. Alex is the first person Michael is shown to trust with this part of himself in present day.

As soon as knowing about aliens doesn’t send Alex running screaming, Michael shows him his lab and everything he’s been working on even though an episode ago he was telling Liz not to touch it with Isobel’s life on the line.

“If anyone’s going to destroy me, it might as well be you.”

“Alex was the first person to make me feel like there was a place for me here.”

Loves Alex so much he leaves the mother he’s been searching for his entire life instead of staying to die beside her because Alex wouldn’t leave him otherwise.

“I love him, I probably always will.” <- the only time either of them has used love in the present tense about the other

So yeah, that’s a substantial but probably not comprehensive list of the ways Michael loves Alex and expresses it. Michael is not always nice; he’s mean when he gets defensive, and he gets defensive a lot. But throughout season 1 he also regularly puts himself out there for Alex while still respecting his space whenever Alex asks for it (which happens at least three times that I can think of—after the reunion, until Alex comes to him at the end of 1x02; after the drive in all the way until 1x09; and after the bar in 1x09 until, again, Alex changes his mind).

I’d also like to address a specific criticism I’ve seen about Michael’s feelings for Alex. No, Michael doesn’t bring up Alex to other people; but Alex specifically says he doesn’t want Isobel to know about them in 1x03 and never expresses a change of heart with regards to that. Michael talking about his relationship with Alex would be against his wishes and, frankly, really out of line and a denial of Alex’s agency. He’s not perfectly gracious about it, but it’s something that hurts him. He wants their relationship to be known, and Alex doesn’t until much, much later. As for Michael not defending Alex verbally…at what point does Alex require that verbal defense? No one ever talks bad about Alex to Michael! The only times Michael is there when Alex is under attack are at prom—and Michael intervenes—and in the shed—and Michael throws himself at Jesse screaming “don’t touch him.” Asking that Michael give the same verbal defense of Alex as Alex does for him is such a false equivalency, because their circumstances aren’t the same. It’s like saying “well if Alex really loved Michael he would tell someone that he’d hate them if they made Michael leave him.”

In season 2, Michael is pushing everyone away. He feels poisoned by hope, and explicitly, Alex represents hope in better things to Michael. Michael absolutely pushes Alex away in season 2. He’s not particularly kind about it. Especially in 2x02. But in 2x01 when he says that he doesn’t think they’re good for each other, he includes his own fault in that--he admits that he thinks he hasn’t been good for Alex either. And furthermore, the thing he says that people hate? “All our years of this, I’ve never said no to you. You come and you go and I go where you put me. This is me saying no.” Is also Michael admitting his own fault. It’s not an entirely accurate statement--we know of one instance and I think we can safely infer others where Michael said no with his actions if not his words--but it is him acknowledging that his own passivity in their relationship was half the problem and him setting a boundary to break that cycle.

I think most malex fans were dissatisfied in various ways by season 2, and I think that inconsistencies and skewed priorities in the writing damaged the arcs and characterizations of just about every character, michael and alex very much included. But I think it’s disingenuous not to accept that the show wants us to believe, and therefore will proceed with this dynamic at the base, that both michael and alex contributed equally to the ways their relationship fell apart and hurt the other. With both of them having such a long history of trauma, with both of them having so few examples of healthy relationships to draw on in their lives, it’s not surprising things went like they did.

We end the season on can we both stop keeping score. I think fandom should take a hint from that. This list isn’t meant to be Michael’s scorecard, but merely a refutation of the idea that Michael’s love for Alex is an informed attribute. The idea that Michael hasn’t been shown to love Alex so deeply that it’s a part of who he is…that the foundation hasn’t been laid…it isn’t supported by canon. He loves him a lot. He loves him to distraction, to the point of agony, to the point of peace. Even after everything in season 2, he drops everything and makes a bomb that he thinks could wipe out his species to save Alex. Michael Guerin loves Alex Manes.

But that doesn’t mean that you as a fan have to keep shipping them. Even if they’re what got you into the show. Even if you think they’re going to be endgame. Even if you think they’re the only way you’re going to get eyes on your fanwork. If you hate half the ship, I encourage you to find a ship that makes you happier instead of subjecting yourself to a character you can’t stand. Also, if you’re going to write vent fic about how insufferable you find a certain character and how much you want them to Pay for their Crimes, it’s polite to tag it thusly.

#rnm meta

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