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dragonagitator · 2 months

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House MD fans: You wake up in the PPTH ER in summer 2004. What you doing?

Scenario parameters:

All your memories of the show and the past 20 years are intact.

You are stuck there/then and cannot return to our universe/year.

You have nothing but the hospital gown on your back.

Questions:

So, what do you do?

How much would you tell House?

How would you get him to believe you?

Who else would you tell?

How much would you tell them?

Inspiration:

The author self-insert isekai fanfic "Intervention" by VivatRex (aka @acrownforaking). They've been writing it for the past 11+ years and are still updating. It's already nearly 300k words long despite only being up to the events of S02E15. I AM IN AWE.

I haven't been able to stop thinking about this scenario ever since I read that fanfic a month ago. I'd love to discuss it with other House MD fans and hear what you would do.

(Apologies to the mutuals for the abrupt blog topic change. A new brainrot has taken hold.)

My short answer:

My long answers are below the cut.

So, what do you do?

My primary objective would be to enlist House in averting the pandemic.

My reasoning: If anyone can nip it in the bud before it gets out of Wuhan, I figure that a world-renowned genius doctor who is an infectious diseases specialist, speaks Mandarin, and now has a 15-year head start would have the best chance.

Difficulty level: Babysitting a narcissistic manchild with the self-preservation instincts of a toddler until the year 2020 so that he makes it there then alive, out of prison, and with his sanity, medical license, and professional reputation intact. To quote Quantum Leap, "Ohhhhhh boooooooy."

Strategy: I'm in the "I could fix him, but whatever's wrong with him is way funnier" camp, so I wouldn't try to change him (that always backfires anyway). Instead, I'd try to change his circumstances:

A stable romantic relationship would help, so I'd seduce him if I can (I'm not his type but a gal's gotta shoot her shot), try to get him together with Dominika earlier if I can't, and tell him how horribly his relationship with Cuddy ended so he knows better than to even start it.

Avert the shooting. Moriaty was a patient so his info is in the PPTH files. I AM THE ONE WHO KNOCKS. Or for a less murdery approach, try to get him arrested in April 2006 for violating New Jersey's strict gun laws.

Warn House about Tritter so he can switch patients with another clinic doctor.

Warn House to never get on a bus with Amber.

Tell Kutner I'm from the future and he's the only one who can prevent something horrible from happening (he's a Trekkie so he'll want to believe), then unfurl my big timeline poster and point at the "Kutner suicide early 2009" stickynote and ask him "so what's up with that, dude?"

Tell Wilson everything I can remember about his cancer -- he's an oncologist and thus can work backwards from there to figure out when to start checking for it so he can cut the tumor out while it's still just a tiny baby.

I would take a harm reduction approach to House's drug use, e.g., suggest that he try microdosing psilocybin and extend his liver's lifespan by substituting cannabis for some of his Vicodin and alcohol consumption.

Methods: Even though he doesn't have one for most of the show, House mentions a few times that he's entitled to hire an assistant, and I happen to be excellent at administrative work.

I think he'd be willing to hire me because working as his executive assistant / department secretary would position me to recognize patients as they come in so that I can discreetly pass along anything I remember, e.g., the kindergarten teacher has pork worms in her brain, ask the scientist in Antarctica to show you her feet, etc.

Meanwhile, I could lurk around the hospital preventing miscellaneous shit, e.g., get the gift shop volunteer from S01E04 to go home sick, ensure that the gunman from S05E09 is promptly admitted, diagnosed, and treated before he snaps and takes hostages, etc.

Possible sidequests:

Use my foreknowlege to get rich by milking online poker bonuses until the passage of the UIGEA in 2006, use my poker money to start flipping houses until 2007, get in on the "Big Short" in 2008, and set a Google Alert for "Bitcoin" so I can start mining/buying it from day one. Unfortunately, I haven't paid enough attention to individual stocks to play the market other than knowing that Amazon would be a good long-term buy & hold.

Use my riches to change the outcome of the 2016 election and try to steer the development of the internet and society in general in a slightly less stupid direction.

Send Pete Carroll a letter postdated just before the 2013 Superbowl telling him the outcome, then suggest for the final play of the 2014 Superbowl that the Seahawks try handing the ball off to Marshawn Lynch instead of throwing it because that throw will be intercepted. PRIORITIES.

How much would you tell House? How would you get him to believe you?

Your story about being from the future of an alternate universe in which House and everyone he knows are characters on a fictional TV show is already too batshit crazy to believe even without his kneejerk "everybody lies" skepticism. How would you differentiate yourself from all the patients who pull crazy stunts to try to get him to take their case?

My answer: For the "from the future" part, I'm hoping there's some sort of test that House could run to confirm that I was indeed vaccinated with a mRNA vaccine against the COVID-19/SARS-COV-2 virus. Given that neither of those things existed in 2004, that would be physical evidence that I'm not from around here now.

If producing physical evidence isn't possible, then I know that Vegetative State Guy from S03E15 is already a patient at PPTH because he'd been there for 10 years, so I'd find him and tell House about his son. I could also tell House enough about the cases from the first few episodes that I'm pretty sure he'd believe me by Christmas. I want in on Chinese food with Wilson.

I would wait until House accepted the "from the future" part before broaching the "fictional TV show" issue. Until then, "I watched a TV show about your life and cases" is a 100% true statement and it's not my fault if he assumes that show was a documentary. :)

Once he believed me, I'd tell him everything.

Who else would you tell? How much would you tell them?

There are people out there who would literally kill for your knowledge of the future, so going public or being too open about it seems highly risky.

My answer: I'd tell House, Wilson, and Chase right away. Kutner but not before Jan 2009. Maybe eventually Cuddy and the rest of the Diagnostics team if keeping my foreknowledge of the future from them proves too difficult.

House is the only one who gets to know everything. Everyone else is on a "need to know" basis.

I might also bring Bill Arnello (the brother/lawyer of the mob informant in S01E15 "Mob Rules") into the circle of trust because he could be a very useful resource for some of my sidequests, e.g., changing the outcome of the 2016 election far far far in advance and in the most direct way possible. (Hi, Secret Service! This is a purely hypothetical discussion about time travel and not at all indicative of any real criminal intent, pls do not pay me a visit, kthxbai.)

I think the only people I would tell the "fictional TV show" part to would be House, Wilson, and Chase, because there are things I need to warn them about that definitely wouldn't have been in a documentary. Like Chase needs to know that killing Diballa is 100% the right thing to do but he seriously needs to work on his OpSec. Everyone else gets the implied documentary lie of omission.

If I get caught knowing too much by random patients, I'll just claim to be psychic. Way more people believe in that than would believe in time travel.

What would you do?

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donnerpartyofone · 9 months

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This has been a really hard one to talk about. I'm always very ambivalent about mourning celebrities. I try to remember that I don't know these people, that what is really mourned by most of us is the person's ongoing work, which in the best cases has helped us understand ourselves and the world in which we live. Unavoidably, though, you can start to develop the sense that you know these people personally, which isn't true or even appropriate necessarily, I mean you have no idea whether you would even like someone you've only seen on a screen or received an autograph from; but at the same time, I don't know if you can really force yourself not to feel like the deceased celebrity is a dear friend you will never get to talk to again (the last time I tried and failed was the passing of Lux Interior). Maybe this is more forgivable, and also more inevitable, if you feel like you grew up with the person.

Of course this is all about ME now, but my mother (who also died from cancer) was an extremely hip, brilliant, funny individual who for whatever reason refused to form a relationship with me. This was pretty strange, because we liked a lot of the same things--B movies, old comics, all types of camp and kitsch--but when I liked those things, it was in poor taste and punishable by exile, whereas when she liked those things, it was evidence of her cultural genius. Before I make anybody too mad I should say that I'm being a little bit unfairly reductive just so I can get to the point, which is that one of the few things we could share was Pee-Wee's Playhouse. I didn't know anything about the show's more adult origins or the fact that Paul Reubens was sort of a performance artist, but I didn't have to. Pee-Wee's Playhouse was a feast for any child's senses: stylish, hilarious, and on some subliminal level, really sophisticated. I was clued into some of what was going on just because I watched it with my mom, who always laughed at Pee-Wee's winks and nudges to the hep parents in the audience. The show might have been my first encounter with the kind of anthropological humor favored by people like David Byrne and Laurie Anderson, artists who engage subversively with cliches, stereotypes, and other memetic parts of popular culture. In Pee-Wee's Playhouse, with its sharp, edgy cast and crew, kids like me were getting into fine art without even knowing it--which is possibly the best way to learn about art anyway.

In fact, on the other side of our house, I became obsessed with Gary Panter's incredible punk opus Jimbo In Paradise, a Dantesque comic book about an innocent young guy living in a dystopian future, where he is occasionally joined by guest stars such as Nancy and Hedorah. I was about 7 when I started reading Jimbo over and over again even though I could barely understand it, and I had no idea that Gary had pretty much designed Pee-Wee's Playhouse. I'm speaking about him so familiarly because I got to know him a little bit as a grownup. I remember Gary talking about how private Paul Reubens could be. He used to do this thing where he would accept a dinner invitation from anybody who asked, as sort of a stunt, but he had to stop doing it because people became so intrusive and entitled with him. Gary said that they'd be walking around in New York and when they saw an obvious Pee-Wee fan gearing up for an offensive, Paul Reubens would sort of transform into this totally different person, putting out an aura that let you know not to fuck with him. It's crazy-making to think that someone who was so protective of the boundary between his private and public selves had to suffer that ridiculous arrest, but it's heartening that most of society eventually grew the fuck up and forgot about it. It's also helpful to remember when he turned up later on the MTV Music Video Awards and started off by asking the audience, "HEARD ANY GOOD JOKES LATELY??"

I'm glad we got one more Pee-Wee special in the past several years, but I always wished that we would see Paul Reubens in more movies. He was such a cool actor, funny, convincing, and naturally charismatic. While people are cycling through their favorite roles of his, I want to point out that he had a great role on a recent HBO miniseries called Mosaic, an intense, engrossing crime drama that I definitely recommend if you have access. Maybe I'll rewatch it, too. In closing, here's a great story that I grabbed from Facebook that should warm everybody's heart, along with the heartbreaking statement (inappropriately cropped by Instagram of course) released upon the death of the very private Pee-Wee Herman. It makes you wish you could thank him in person, for everything. The best we can do is just remember him.

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twstbrainrotstuff · 1 year

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The Malleus Flowers are actually not that depressing.

Flowers have multiple meanings. I know that twitter thread made it seem really depressing but those same flowers have other more common meanings.

I’ll post them under a read more, not the picture so there aren’t spoilers.

White amaryllis: mourning of a loved one. Amaryllis when star-shaped also means pride.

Sempervivum: Its name quite literally translates to “always living” or “always alive. Its a perennial plant that can thrive in harsh conditions. It was also believed to ward off fire and lightning strikes. (haha)

Basil: Originally it meant “hate” but over time was embraced to mean love. Quite fitting for Malleus’s wishes and his journey.

Elderberry: A symbol of the goddess Holle, the goddess of Death and Regeneration. Holle is said to reside in a cold, dark residence at the bottom of a well but is considered to be a kind and benevolent goddess. Just like Malleus lives in a dark and imposing castle but is actually quite nice when you approach him. Elderberry is also said to have the power to bridge the physical world with the spiritual world.

Green Rose: Hope and healing, new beginnings and new relationships, balance. Just like he stated in Glorious Masquerade, Malleus came to NRC with hopes to learn more about humanity and possibly forge new friendships. Roses in particular have multiple meanings, to say that it just means jealousy is very reductive.

Dracaena: Derived from the ancient Greek word, Drakaina, which means “female dragon”. Like both Maleficent and Malleus himself. The plant’s stems also resemble to the color “Dragon’s blood”. The plant is just full of dragon references.

Helichrysum: Forgiving love and Everlasting light. Also eternal love.

Euterpe oleracea: The Açai palm plant. I could not find any specific meaning for this plant. Not destruction, not anything. The only things I could find were that Euterpe is a Greek Muse known for guiding very well known Poets (Malleus does like music and philosophy) and that Açai means “Fruit that cries”.

#malleus draconia #twst malleus #twisted wonderland #twst #twst wonderland #sorry for the long post but I wanted to get this out there #twst bloom birthday

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thesherrinfordfacility · 9 months

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Longwinded anon again. It's very easy to see where Aziraphale needs to get his act together/get therapy in regards to his belief in Heaven's essential goodness (and it was always very odd to see fans believing that four years would have been sufficient, narrative-wise, for that to happen--four years is nothing to characters who are immortal). Crowley, though, is still doing one of the most toxic things on his side of the relationship: he's being over-protective. In S1, the "damsel in distress" bits, which I know some fans like to romanticize, are harmful to both characters, because they make Crowley feel like he's doing something heroic when he isn't (every rescue in S1 is unnecessary) and encourage Aziraphale to abandon his agency. In the narrative arc, Aziraphale's discorporation, which Crowley fails to stop, is liberating. He does his conscientious objector bit, chucks himself out of Heaven, kicks Crowley out of his depression in the bar, vanishes the soldier, and then has to forcibly remind Crowley at the airfield that /now/, in fact, Crowley needs to do something or there will be irreversible consequences. And then they rescue each other through the body swap.

S2 doesn't have the big swoopy rescue scenes, aside from the 1941 replay, but what it does have is Crowley withholding key information that might well have altered Aziraphale's behavior. He clearly hasn't been forthright about what Gabriel really said at the execution, and he never gets around to mentioning that Aziraphale has put himself in danger of being zapped out of existence by Heaven. (This is very PRIDE & PREJUDICE: Lydia elopes with Wickham in part because her older sisters don't publicize his bad behavior.) Again, he thinks of himself as Aziraphale's protector, and while Aziraphale knows that Crowley likes to protect him--he even says so--in S2 he doesn't fully understand what Crowley is protecting him from. Nina asks Aziraphale why he doesn't stick up for himself, and he shows once again that he can, but in S2 Crowley thinks it's his job to keep Aziraphale safe from any real Heaven-sent nastiness that might puncture his innocence. Which prevents Aziraphale from evaluating his choices once the Metatron shows up.

(As for S3: Gaiman does appear committed to getting them together in their cottage, so I don't think a permanent breakup is on the horizons. I do think something drastic has to happen, whether becoming mortal, becoming a "new" sort of immortal being tied to Earth rather than Heaven and Hell, Aziraphale delivering a full-bore public rejection of Heaven with attendant consequences, etc.)

Longwinded Anon✨, light of my life, you are officially driving me insane with these asks (screenshots of others under the cut); there is so much fascinating insight to talk about. first of all, though, welcome back and i hope you are also Surviving following s2!✨

these two characters are two of the most fun to dissect and examine. they are hugely multifaceted, and every time i watch s2 and ruminate on them, there is more and more to find. the below is the result of those ruminations, and i feel the obligation to warn anyone reading that it is going to be a very, very long one, so ✨buckle tf up✨

further messages from Longwinded Anon✨, my beloved:

aziraphale: insecurity

to me, one of the key tenets of aziraphale's character is a deep-seated and complete sense of insecurity and lack of self-esteem. and it's not unfathomable to think that he's had a lack of self-worth for some time, carrying all the way through to the Feral Domestic™ (FD). bear in mind that all of the below is without reference to the pre-fall scene, which ill cover separately later on.

there is however the fairly obvious element that heaven and the archangels completely disregard aziraphale, and are condescending and reductive in how they perceive and interact with him. aziraphale, i think, adopted this mindset pretty heavily in s1 - one such example being the "I'm soft" line - and it is further explored in s2, but specifically at the later end.

aziraphale in s2 seems much more self-possessed and 'together', and a key element of that shift is not only his liberation from heaven, but also that he somewhat starts to see himself through crowley's eyes as possibly being worthy of being loved. i think that he starts to think of himself as, in fact, having intrinsic value.

this is shown, in particular, in s2 by the contrast between ep2's rock scene (where he starts to question the depth of his angelic allegiance, and that he might have actually done the right thing by following his own personal conviction and helping save job's children), and the majority of ep5 (ie. his absolutely astounding - by aziraphale standards - amount of confidence in himself to get him and the ball attendees out of demonic danger).

this is brought to a head though by shax's comments in ep5, where she really drives a stake into the core of aziraphale's insecurity. she remarks on his propensity for indulgence (sushi/meals), his tendency to be overtrusting and naive ("softest touch"), his lack of traditional angelic quality ("went native"), and the question of what exactly crowley feels for him ("emotional support angel").

setting aside Michael's acting - which was truly mesmerising in this one little scene, probably one of his set-pieces in the show, honestly - that tells us that this really got to him, we know from everything we have seen of aziraphale in GO that these are likely thoughts that he has repressed, or pretends are not conceivable when they absolutely are.

my final interpretation of aziraphale's insecurity, however, is not necessarily that he thinks he is without value or merit whatsoever, but that he is not enough.

he's good enough to guard the eastern gate, but not good enough to keep adam and eve from temptation. he's good enough to guard and monitor the antichrist, but not enough to be truly accepted as part of the heaven hive (his physical sentry post on earth notwithstanding). he's good enough for crowley to run away with to alpha centauri, but not enough to convince crowley to choose to stay and fight with him to prevent the apocalypse.

this starts to wane in s2, and he's noticeably more happy and confident... right up until ep6 when he's good enough to be loved by crowley enough to spend eternity with, but not enough for crowley to sacrifice his hang-ups with heaven and help him rebuild it as a team so noone else ever has to suffer what they both did.

the lines however in ep6 that particularly broke my heart, because aziraphale literally conveys this whole painful, bleeding part of his psyche to crowley, are the following:

a: "if im in charge, i can make a difference."

a: "i don't think you understand what im offering you."

whatever the motive behind metatron's offer to aziraphale (and therefore calling into question the sincerity of his compliments to aziraphale), aziraphale has literally just been told that not only does someone who - whichever way you slice it - is the highest being in heaven that he has the ability to run it, but he has the ability to completely gut and rebuild it for the better.

harking back to ep1 with crowley's statement that aziraphale only calls him for three reasons, one of which is telling crowley something clever ie. his own achievements, it does make me wonder how often this scenario truly happens. maybe it does happen often, but what does aziraphale actually consider to be an achievement? something to be proud of himself for, that is purely reflective of his ability and - by extension - worth?

when aziraphale tells crowley that he might be misunderstanding what aziraphale is offering him, i don't interpret it as anything to do with restoring crowley; instead, i just see aziraphale telling crowley that he is offering up absolutely everything that he is, every single atom and aspect of him, and all crowley has to do is trust him enough to take it. he is saying that he will love crowley, and crowley can be free to love him, but only, in aziraphale's eyes, if crowley can accept aziraphale as he is; that he is enough.

during this whole part of the scene, crowley won't even look at him. won't even face him, sunglasses or not, and acknowledge what aziraphale is saying, right up until this line. you can visibly see that aziraphale starts to get angry that the one person who made him feel any self-worth might in fact have never seen him as good enough in the first place, that crowley didn't in fact love every part of him, and was choosing to cherrypick the aspects of aziraphale that suited crowley, rather than the whole.

this snippet of the scene is compounded by being sandwiched by these two crowley lines which, in my eyes, really highlighted that crowley is in fact only choosing to accept aziraphale in small measures, and that other elements of him are not enough:

c: "...you're better than that, angel!"

c: "you idiot, we could have been us."

aziraphale is enough exactly as he is; he's not perfect and certainly not wholly complete, but for crowley to dig at aziraphale by intimating that he is not reaching the bar that crowley has set for him - potentially subconsciously - is likely be the true end for how much stock aziraphale put in crowley's perception of him, and by extension the worth that he thought he had in crowley's mind. instead, aziraphale is now left to find a way of building his sense of self-worth all by himself - and does so by stepping into that lift.

crowley: salvation

im not going to necessarily talk about all the times that crowley demonstrates an almost pathological need to be aziraphale's saviour, because frankly Longwinded Anon✨ has that covered. but as with all things GO-related, i think it's important to try to understand why.

i truly think that a cornerstone of crowley's romanticism is deeply rooted in the concept of salvation. now, we know that he doesn't appear to give a flying fuck about salvation from heaven, but he certainly seems to put a great deal of import on being aziraphale's hero, and later he seems to question a great deal when aziraphale essentially finds a hero elsewhere.

as LW Anon✨ said, aziraphale is very cognizant that crowley likes to play hero where he's concerned, and seems simultaneously resigned and excited by the matter; resigned because actually, sometimes, aziraphale is smart or powerful enough to keep himself safe, but excited because this is possibly the epitome of how crowley expresses his love for him.

aziraphale shows that he is fully aware of this characteristic of crowley's, and whilst he does play into it (which we saw throughout all of s1e3) to 'make crowley happy' (and, dare i say, also because at this point it is the supernatural, sex-less interpretation of centuries-long foreplay) in s2 it almost starts to become neglectful, overbearing, and dismissive of - as LWA✨ says - any true agency that aziraphale has built since breaking from heaven. this, incidentally, is highlighted in the following exchange:

c: "im gonna get the humans out of here and then im coming back, i won't leave you on your own."

a: "i know, but i have a suggestion-"

c: [interrupts] "ive got this."

whether crowley feels like he is missing any genuine overture from heaven to apologise for making him fall for a minor infraction, or he feels guilty about something that he did (ie possibly what made him fall) and is making his own reparations in the outlet of constantly being aziraphale's saviour, the one that is certain is that crowley has to feel needed, and by extension - loved.

he does have a nasty habit of putting aziraphale down (which ill talk about next), however much in jest, and placing aziraphale constantly under his metaphorical wing. aziraphale going so far in s1 to actually work out the apocalypse and proceed to take what he believes is the right action to prevent it on his own must have, by extension, sent crowley reeling - if aziraphale can in fact look after himself, where does that leave crowley? what else, in crowley's eyes, could he possibly bring to the table that would make aziraphale want to keep him? love him?

i think that this is crowley's own brand of insecurity; that unless he is performatively saving aziraphale and protecting him from harm, and actively dismissing aziraphale's ability to protect himself sufficiently enough, he has no discernible quality that aziraphale would want. so instead he tries to make himself so integral to aziraphale's survival so that aziraphale has no choice but to keep him.

the fact that aziraphale saves himself in s1, and they then reflectively save each other, did wonders for aziraphale in progressing as a character. however, in crowley, i feel that this frightened him so emotionally that it regressed his character somewhat. all coming to the climax of when aziraphale, in good faith, offers crowley the chance at salvation for himself, crowley vehemently refuses it and takes it to insult. there are many other valid and understandable reasons why crowley rejects the prospect, but one of them to me is that it would leave crowley's fundamental role in aziraphale's existence as completely redundant.

both: demonstrating love

essentially what i put in an ask recently, but needed referencing here too.

leading on from crowley and his hero/saviour complex: the thing is that these are two diametrically opposing people in all but a handful of aspects. crowley by large is usually the more obviously demonstrative in his affection, borne out of many different reasons, and he is the ultimate Acts of Service (ft. Quality Time) dude. aziraphale tends to be more subtle, with Looks and Words, in how he displays his, so let's give him the Words of Affirmation (ft. QT) crown.

in s2, it seems to me that this hasn't really changed, but they are starting to cross over into speaking the language that the other understands. and to me, this comes to a head by the time of the ep5, and the ep6 FD. so obviously crowley has finally bridged into verbally demonstrating to aziraphale how he feels. aziraphale did the same action but mirrored by - however misguided - offering crowley the chance to be restored.

but neither want what the other is giving; they want what the other usually does to show their affection. aziraphale wants crowley to demonstrate his willingness to be with aziraphale by coming with him to heaven, and crowley wants aziraphale to acknowledge what he is telling aziraphale and respond in kind. neither are at fault for wanting that; they have simply demonstrated their devotion to each other in different ways, but those ways have been quite damaging.

crowley does do a lot for aziraphale, that can't be denied, but AoS is way more demonstrative, and yet it's easy to miss what those acts are actually saying. WoA can be more casual but the words you choose speak volumes... "our car/bookshop", "id love for you to help me", "my friend crowley", etc.

whilst i don't necessarily subscribe to the psychology of love languages, they're useful for this sort of analysis. aziraphale does even branch out in other languages; he is constantly touching crowley this season; the pub, the ball, the bookshop in early ep6. quality time is a given, and has always been their common ground. giving gifts im not so sure on, but i think the significance of readily offering crowley the bookshop as being his - something that was wholly aziraphale's, not heaven's, and is aziraphale's own sanctuary - spoke volumes.

specifically in ep5 however, aziraphale really goes ham in demonstrating to crowley how he sees love, defines it, and that he could give this to crowley - the pinnacle of this being the dance and the evident romantic implications of it... it summarises all of aziraphale's own romantic idealistic make-up; touching, intimate conversation, choosing crowley as his partner, romantic literature, classical music, etc.

and whilst comedic and obviously reflective of crowley being otherwise preoccupied re: demon incursion, i also thought that the physical imagery of aziraphale literally dragging him to the dancefloor, and crowley questioning when they've ever danced in the past, was particularly telling about crowley's reaction to how aziraphale is trying to convey to him, without saying the words, that he loves him.

aziraphale in s2 truly does give crowley everything that he can. his love is quiet, and gentle, and romantic, and whilst not as high stakes as saving aziraphale's life, it is still valid. however, it seems that where aziraphale seems to have recognised his feelings quite early on and acknowledged them early on, having time to settle them into his soul (even if he couldn't act for fear of heaven), s2 seems to indicate that crowley refused to acknowledge his until the eleventh hour.

but crowley's love has been there all along, ticking away. ignoring his tendency to stick his oar in where it isn't needed (saving aziraphale and treating him as if he were made of glass), he shows his love in his own ways - following aziraphale around soho, silently supportive, admires him for calming down the bookshop and handling the IB situation, tidies the bookshop for him (which also possibly indicates that he's now finally accepting the bookshop as his home), etc.

both of them take a swan dive in the declaring-love endgame in ep6, but neither of them are responsive to the love language that they usually give. aziraphale is given words but wants actions, and crowley is given actions but wants words. the chronic lack of communication between the two of them throughout the show is the main contributing factor to this disconnect, and leads to serious ramifications in their ability to possibly mend it going into s3.

aziraphale: pre-fall

at the risk of daring to contradict LWA✨ in their assessment of aziraphale's feelings towards the angel-who-crowley-was (AWCW) in the pre-fall scene, upon reflection i don't get the sense that aziraphale falls in love with AWCW in this moment. and exactly as pointed out by @assiraphales, we don't have any of the gaps filled in between this scene and The Wall, so it's arguably unknown when exactly those feelings deepened.

there is definitely attraction of some kind (can angels experience physical attraction? presumably they do, if aziraphale thought the "gorgeous" comment was directed at him), an admiration of AWCW's abilities, and an immediate concern for AWCW's wellbeing if he were to question god. but i don't get the sense that he falls in love; more that he's bumped into a cool, attractive kid outside his locker and immediately starts spouting angelic heart eyes, and at the least develops an immediate fascination.

AWCW is presented as being rather classist in this scene, and whilst not outright maliciously rude, he definitely seems to look down on aziraphale, or consider him relatively inconsequential. which is odd, because i think if he actually listened to what aziraphale was telling him, aziraphale actually comes across as having his own brand of status. i can't imagine that any bog-standard angel would be entrusted with helping god with building Her ultimate creation, building humans, and being allowed to see the Great Plan. whilst maybe not the same level as AWCW, i think the fandom is underplaying aziraphale's own significance in this part of the story.

the fact remains however that the aziraphale we see in this scene is still the fundamental foundation of the aziraphale we see later on in the story. AWCW calls for him as he's wandering (rocketing) past, and aziraphale doesn't hesitate to come to AWCW's aid. he's presumably going somewhere, but prioritises helping someone who needs him, and does so out of kindness and then, it seems later on, out of attraction.

he recognises the achievement of AWCW's nebula, asks questions to learn more (and thus demonstrating his interest) of the construction and purpose of AWCW's craft, and outright compliments it for its brilliance and wonder. all behaviours that id say is rooted in wanting to establish a friendship, and meanwhile developing an arguably shallow crush.

i think that these are also general admirations that aziraphale brings forward as he gets to know crowley as a demon, but has to adjust his world-view that he may admire the principle if not the act; he thinks crowley is clever and fun and talented, even if he doesn't condone the new ways in which crowley displays this.

there are definitely times where aziraphale is still caught up in crowley being a good person and concluding that crowley must still be an angel in all but name, but i do not necessarily think that he thinks lesser of crowley as a demon out of maliciousness. i think it's hard for aziraphale to conflate the two ideas that a) crowley has moments of being a good person regardless of hellish or heavenly identity, and that b) crowley doesn't want to be an angel. aziraphale still parallels good with angelicness, holds being good (and therefore being an angel) as the epitome of character, and can't as a result understand that if they were given the opportunity to change and improve the bad bits of heaven, why crowley wouldn't want to help him.

as LWA✨ says, the further we see their story progress, it becomes clear that aziraphale then begins to hold himself above crowley morally, and this is largely lynch-pinned on their separate identities as an angel and demon respectively. aziraphale constantly bats crowley down and puts him back in his place throughout s1, but less so in s2; in this, id refer back to aziraphale's insecurity around his being a good enough angel, but now that we have the context of AWCW having been aziraphale's technical superior, doing this possibly helps him to feel better about himself. this is abhorrent behaviour and is not at all kind, that can't be denied, but i think it is however possible to empathise with it.

aziraphale has spent a long time having an endless reserve of love and not having a lot of places where he can meaningfully channel it. he's got humanity and earth, but whilst he certainly cares for it, it doesn't mean that he candidly loves it. he still feels kinship to heaven and the other angels, but he certainly doesn't love them. in fact the only person he's ever had to fully pour out his love has been into crowley, but faced with the prospect that crowley may still be like his angelic self in that regard (ie not love him back), i think that love has been repressed so much that it's almost atrophied and turned self-destructive and self-sabotaging. in that context, whilst awful and generally inexcusable, aziraphale's behaviour starts to make sense.

crowley: Lucifer theory

i will preface this by saying that despite initial excitement, i don't necessarily think that crowley was lucifer in the colloquialised sense that we regard lucifer in general culture, but perhaps more represents lucifer in the wider sense of having a story that mirrors the one we can somewhat attribute to lucifer. whether or not he will actually be named as lucifer i think is up for debate, but in any case let's take a look at what lucifer's story actually entailed.

now i realise that i am absolutely not an expert on the matter, but there are indeed a wealth of misinterpretations where lucifer as a biblical figure is concerned. i am very behind on this discussion, angelology (shudder) is not in my limited repertoire of specialist subjects, and i welcome anyone else adding in their thoughts on the matter.

but if anyone else has zero knowledge on lucifer, like me, we'll start with the basics as i see them. name coming from the Latin for light- or dawn-bringer, lucifer has been linked to the planet venus in various tellings in roman mythology. given the occasional bright illumination of the planet as seen from earth, this is in part where we coming to the moniker Morningstar when also historically referring to lucifer. so on this base level, we have the link between lucifer and crowley by way of celestial context.

now down to a potential mistranslation, the hebrew for the name of satan, helel, has become synonymous with the name lucifer, down to their respective translations akin to the Latin for 'light-bringer'/'morningstar' as above, but that does not necessarily indicate that lucifer and satan are the same being. so this is where im fairly confident in that whoever crowley was, which is possibly lucifer, his story ran parallel to that of the former relatively unknown being and not the latter more infamous one.

crowley has referenced lucifer in s1, which has led to the debunk that the two are the same being, but when rewatching it, i think it can be completely reinterpreted:

c: "i never asked to be a demon. i was just minding my own business one day and then... "oh lookie here, it's lucifer and the guys!"... ah, hey - the food hadn't been that good lately, i didn't have anything on for the rest of the afternoon..."

this doesn't need to mean that AWCW was the one who came across lucifer and cohort, but possibly that someone else did, or just exclaiming it in the general sense. getting whimsical in the headcanon space, AWCW may well have been enjoying his afternoon, chatting with friends that he thought he could trust, and thought he could share his thoughts on challenging how things are run (same as he did with aziraphale). evidently, whatever happened completely bit him on the arse, and at minimum partially resulted in his fall.

there are multiple references to crowley being at least an angel of import, almost too many to count. however a common theme in many references to venus in various religious and mythological texts is the concept of reaching for higher power, but to be cast down and punished for it. given the indication (iirc) from interviews and also the pre-fall scene that crowley was up for collaborating with god on how to improve things in heaven, it could stand to reason that in a moment of anger or frustration he voices the thought that he could do a better job running the place.

and if other angels were behind him in this, equally dissatisfied with their lot in heaven, and being set aside by god in favour of humanity, it similarly wouldnt be a huge leap to think that this one sentence, this singular half-baked thought, might have precipitated the war. following said war, as LWA✨ suggests, it would make sense that in an effort to lick his wounds and keep a low profile, crowley would take or accept a middling rank in hell, and possibly even volunteer for the assignment of original sin; all the more opportunity to remove himself completely from the narrative between heaven and hell.

which then, now that i think about it, completely recontextualises crowley's aversion to being a part in helping aziraphale rebuild heaven. why would he want to, why wouldn't he be petrified of it, when the last time went so badly? there must be a sense of resentment towards aziraphale in this regard - what makes aziraphale, a potentially lower angel, so special that he would be invited to completely revolutionise heaven, when all AWCW did was make suggestions, and end up being villified for it? if he did join aziraphale, and challenged him, would aziraphale then be forced to cast crowley out again? what would crowley stand to lose this time?

so this is where i think the concept of crowley having a huge secret that he's keeping from aziraphale comes into play, and i agree must come out in s3. it would completely derail any faith that aziraphale had in crowley, for him to have kept such vital information from him, his potential part in the fall. i could imagine aziraphale interpreting the reveal of this secret as being that crowley fooled and hoodwinked him, however false or unintentional that might have been, and it representing the last vestige of aziraphale's innocence and naivety being swept away.

edit, because @baggvinshield has put this theory so eloquently and with far more comprehension and education than i could hope for: Lucifer theory

there are so many more topics that i have sat in various documents and in my notes as concerns these two characters; aziraphale's obsession with control and 'playing god', their shared inability to communicate effectively and meaningfully, crowley and his propensity for unintentional temptation, whether the love between them truly equates to any semblance of trust, etc etc. some of these topics have been alluded to in the above, but i felt that the above essay might be sufficient reading for now. im adoring (if a little bemused by it) the amount of discussion this silly little blog is generating, and im always more than happy to share my thoughts on anything GO-related where people want it!!!

and now - back to answering the hundreds of asks that have accumulated whilst i've hyperfixated on the above. ta-rah!✨💓

#good omens #good omens season two #good omens spoilers #good omens 2 spoilers #good omens meta #good omens analysis #good omens speculation #not a shitpost but its good omens babyyyy #ask #the great go angelology debate of july 2023 #aka 'was crowley an archangel and was he raphael? answer: fuck knows'#the legend of the longwinded anon✨#🚨 lucifer theory🚨

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dross-the-fish · 6 months

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I can't find it now but I saw a post where you said Erik's mask isn't a comfort item. Why do you think it isn't? Why would he get so angry at Christine if it wasn't?

Ok, I'm about to get ranty and it's not directed at you specifically so don't take it personally.

I hate the take that Erik's mask is his "security blanket" or his "comfort device" because it's incredibly LAZY.

It's fucking lazy. It's a lazy and reductive take and it almost always comes with the intent of woobifying Erik and villainizing Christine.

Erik does not find his mask comforting, he feels he has to wear it to conceal himself and if anything he gives the sense that he would much rather be able to live without it. He's angry at Christine for a few reasons and I speculate some of them are not even about Christine.

The most obvious and superficial reason is that his carefully laid plan has gone to shit

Erik believed whole heartedly that if Christine didn't know what he looked like that she might be compelled to return to him if he let her go. My guess is that he had planned to try and win her over and wait to tell her the truth after they re-built some of the lost trust...trust lost because he lied to her...and kidnapped her.

Erik is a wee bit unhinged.

But I also think there's more to his freak out. This may be headcanon on my part but I always interpreted this

As being something of a traumatized response. Not because the mask gives him comfort or something like that, but because when someone is deformed, especially back in that time period, people often stared or treated them like a horror novelty. Erik has no doubt endured a life time of people trying to look at his face as some kind of morbid curiosity to be gawked at and Christine snatching it may have put him back in that mindset and he is PISSED.

His bit about "Women being inquisitive" also strikes me as him referencing things that happened before. I almost wonder if Christine wasn't the first person to catch his interest and if he's tried this before with....horrible results.

It reads less like "Oh no! You took my safety blanket! Now I'm exposed and vulnerable!" and more akin to

This specifically is why I hate the whole "mask is his comfort item" take because it makes Erik sound like a toddler throwing a tantrum because someone took his binky and paints Christine as being somehow in the wrong for wanting to see her kidnapper's face.

A thing she had already demanded of him previously which he denied without giving any explanation whatsoever. I cannot stress enough that Erik is the one with the power in this scenario. They are in his house, he has her trapped and he has been the older mentor/protector figure in her life for some time. The scale is tipped in HIS favor, not hers. I've always felt that at this point in their relationship her taking off the mask is, in a way, her trying to level the field because he's had her at such a disadvantage this whole time.

And that's not to say that Christine doesn't have feelings of some kind for Erik. Christine's feelings for Erik are messy and complicated but there is an undeniable fear and discomfort that she expresses over her captivity. She does pity him enough to come back, I think she also feels a lingering attachment to him, despite everything, but Erik keeps making. The. Worst. Possible. Choices.

To be clear, Christine is not in any way to blame for "provoking" Erik. He is a victim of the the time period and the society he lives in but he is not in any way shape or form CHRISTINE'S victim.

Erik isn't to blame for how he's been treated by the world at large and he's clearly been through some shit, he deserves sympathy but that doesn't make his treatment of Christine ok or make it Christine's job to give him affection and companionship.

#the phantom of the opera #Poto discourse

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ilynpilled · 1 year

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i wish jaime’s arc was never this heavily associated with the word redemption bc every single discussion about him revolves around that word and the baggage people have with it. i know george repeatedly used it when it concerns him, but i obv do not think that means his arc is as simple as going from bad to good in a linear fashion. but it is about transformation imo. if it was just about a perspective shift/recontextualization then why would george make him lose the thing that defined him in every way and allowed him to detach himself from everything? it is also not an elaborate trick and a subversion of “redemption arcs”, that is also a reductive and cynical read of it to me. his nuances are never discussed beyond “bad guy is good guy now” or “guy is tricking u he is still stagnant.” imo his motivations evolve, his relationship with the self evolves, his relationship with abstract concepts he craves such as honor, love & knighthood evolves, he evolves: he is one of the characters that is in constant motion, he is always on a journey, he is rarely at a standstill after he leaves the dungeon in acok. it makes me so sad that nothing new is said about him atp other than fandom going in circles about this one word, especially bc i think he is at a key transitional point again right now. i think his arc is about tearing down the “brave golden knight” image in every way until you are left with nothing but harsh reality and a broken cripple. it is tearing apart facades & personas. and then it is the story of what one can make of oneself then. it is about grueling moral dilemmas and the making of choices. and then finally it is about the idea of confrontation for someone who has always been incredibly afraid of it and repeatedly chose to run away inside instead. george deliberately made it so he can no longer do that. that must lead somewhere.

#i really just wish ppl discussed this character beyond #is this a redemption arc or is this not a redemption arc #i dont care i hate that word atp #this topic is what governs 90% of discussions about him and im so tired of it #it has been the case since 2013 😭#there is so so much going on in his chapters and he is such a wonderfully written character y must he be locked inside of these boxes 😔#it is this never ending back and forth that dominates everything else #jaime lannister #gn tho

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thewayuarent · 6 months

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Always love your takes and thoughts about Ray’s addiction and how they’ve handled it. This isn’t really so much as about the show and their handle of it but certain things I see in the fandom and I’d like to hear your thoughts: for some reason I’ve seen people go “Sand he’s drinking because of you it’s your fault” towards Sand one too many times (like in the pool) and I’ve never been so frustrated with reading something. Not only is saying something like that detrimental to someone trying to recover (for many reasons like putting the blame on someone else instead of the addict themselves) but also putting all the responsibility on someone else for “keeping someone sober” and if they upset them it’s their fault is just as detrimental. For their relationship and just in general for both of the the people involved (in this case Ray and Sand).

Hi, anon, thank you for enjoying my thoughts.

I didn’t see those comments and thanks god, I’m so sorry you have to read it. This is just people being uneducated and ignorant and guilt tripping someone - in this case fictional character, but in the situation that very common in real life.

I agree with you, and I want to say that this is very, very dangerous type of commenting. There is a huge difference between supporting someone with addiction in their recovering process and taking responsibility for that.

And I really appreciate how show handles it - with Ray saying himself that this is his journey, and his problem do deal with, and while Sand is there for him to help and support - which is a huge thing - this is ultimately Ray who makes a decision.

Blaming someone like that is just wrong for both parties.

For Sand, or someone in “supporter” role is denying his right for making mistakes, and overall to have feelings. Live your life constantly being afraid that you can cause an addict to relapse is not healthy. You can lose yourself in a process and became a shell of a human you were and it’s not gonna help anyone.

But it’s also unfair to Ray, or any person with addition. It’s a reduction his whole personality to this one thing - this is a very common mistake with people with addiction or mental health problems. You can’t put him in a box where the life is perfect and nothing bad ever happens - and even if you could it’s not going anywhere.

Ray is right, triggers will be everywhere around him. And sad events will happen in his life, and his relationships - including Sand. Recovering from addiction is not about removing all stress factors, is about learning to deal with them in a more healthy way. And I would say Ray does a pretty good job there, because after that one sip he handles the whole stressful situation being completely sober.

He is only at the start of his rehab. And there is and always will be a risk of relapse. This is a long journey. But Ray is the whole person, he’s way more than his addiction. Sand is his whole person, he’s way more than someone who loves a person with addiction. He dumped his job at the bar, and it’s fine because he didn’t really like that one. But he’s gonna have liquor making business, and it’s also fine, because if Ray wants he’ll find a way to drink with Sand’s liquor or without that.

But Sand never behaved in some particular way only for not upsetting Ray - and this is a good thing for both of them. I wish people to understand that.

That’s my very unnecessary long way to say that I agree with you. Don’t read those comments, people are ignorant and that’s their problem. Thank you for giving me a chance to talk about one of my favorite topics in this show, I appreciate that.

#ofts #only friends the series #only friends #only friends meta #sandray #asked and answered

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ihopesocomic · 5 months

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This isn't at all aimed at the previous anon but i find it strange that people still think you're telling a sexist story in the same way that My Pride is when you've already shown characters who aren't male taking names or being figures of respect in their prides. Clever, for example, was so badass that she not only needed two Kings to take her down but Jasper also never dared disrespect her during his reign in the Grove unless he had Vicious or somebody backing him up.

So, the people who say they have an issue with sexism when it comes to the comic are always an interesting bunch because they always have the same following complaints that are not only untrue but heavily contradict each other:

The most common complaint is that we "hate men" and we're portraying all the male characters as either unintelligent or assholes when the reality is that: 1) we have a fair ratio between male and non-male villains, 2) two of our main protagonists are masculine presenting and 3) two of the nicest characters in the comic (Opal and Obsidian) are also male.

The whole "realism" argument where irl lionesses are actually on par with lions in their social structure... which we've shown by having even Jasper and Vicious - despite their abusive relationship - share duties when it comes to hunting or babysitting but people just choose to ignore that for some bizarre reason.

To go off the other two points: we've also seen a couple of individuals bitch about the fact that we're telling a "female empowerment" story. Which leads me to ask: well, what exactly is your problem here? Are you mad that we're being realistic by uplifting our lioness characters or do you feel that by having female protagonists, we also somehow "hate men"... pick one. lol We completely get that having a female empowerment story means that it's very easy to demonise the guy characters in a bid to make the female ones "look better" but the solution to that problem isn't avoiding having male villains at all but to find a balance and not make it so blatantly obvious that you're tackling sexism by making every. single. guy. character an awful person. On the flip side of the coin, however, having male villains doesn't automatically mean you "hate men" or are sexist towards men. Especially when you're reading a story that is also obviously trying to break gender norms. The punchline is that these same people also like to discount Storm's gnc status and also actively misgender Diamond and say they're a female to try and prove their whole sexism point further. So, it essentially becomes an ironic pissing contest of who can come up with the most reductive takes there is while also accusing us of being discriminatory in some way. lol - RJ

#ask #ask us stuff #rj answers #storm #diamond #opal #obsidian #travelers #thundering mountains #my pride mention

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gingerylangylang1979 · 1 year

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Carmy, Sydney, and Marcus... Because We Will Never Shut Up About It.

Deep thoughts while waiting for the feeling to come back to my mouth after a dental procedure, so forgive me if this is all over the place:

The dynamics between Carmy, Sydney, and Marcus have sparked endless posts due to key scenes in E7 and E8. Most takes seem to be polarized to either sympathize with Carmy or sympathize with Sydney and Marcus. I’m here to say a binary view is a reductive take. I’m approaching this from a perspective of social consciousness, personal experience, and objectivity needed when creating meaningful commentary on media. Hell, I’m even going to say it’s crucial to analyzing culture in general. Ignoring these factors is much of the reason people fail in relating to each other and moving forward together from a place of understanding and commonality. I’m probably going to piss some people off with my points but please at least read to the end and then be pissed off all you want.

The usual opinions regarding these three tend to fall into two camps. One, Carmy failed and is a horrible boss and his white man pain does not excuse his behavior and Sydney and Marcus are at no fault and are trying to reach excellence, within a system that is not in their favor, without proper support. Two, Sydney and Marcus are totally to blame for what happened and Carmy deserved to snap and shouldn’t have apologized or accepted them back. Both opinions are usually presented simplistically, sometimes with a few more shades of nuance, but essentially this is the essence of what I’m seeing voiced. Strictly agreeing with one or the other is not accurate.

My conclusions from take one are that Sydney and Marcus are deserving of leadership that will foster and guide their development to a higher level but Carmy in his current state is incapable of giving them what they need. That doesn’t make him a monster, it makes him human, regardless if he is a white man in pain or not. I don’t know any man or woman in his situation that wouldn’t be struggling given his lived experience. I don’t know any human who is having panic attacks at the drop of a dime, is always on the verge of tears, is still freshly grieving, dissociates, and sleep cooks who would be able to give new employees their best and maintain composure at all times. It’s just not realistic. Just because someone has authority doesn’t mean they can deliver what is needed at all times.

Sydney and Marcus are both young Black professionals striving for more in Carmy’s kitchen under his uneasy authority. He isn’t looking at them as employees to mentor, he's looking at them as talented resources to help foster stability. That’s where he is at with them professionally. That’s all he has to give. It’s a case of bad timing, not a bad person. Sydney and Marcus were not getting the leadership they desperately needed and their lived experiences aren’t recognized but despite their lived experiences they would still be in the same scenario. Anybody coming into that kitchen would not be getting Carmy’s best. That sucks but it is what it is.

Much has been said about how we shouldn’t dismiss the relationship between Carmy and Sydney as mentor and mentee because she has stellar credentials, is a superb cook, is a capable leader (in ways Carmy fails), has business experience, and has saved The Beef many times. She is invaluable. So I agree that we shouldn’t just reduce her to a mentee in Carmy’s kitchen. But she did seek to work with him for a reason. She does think she can learn from him. So while she may not be super subordinate to him she herself acknowledges that she has something to gain from him. She told this to Richie in E2. She said they could ALL learn a lot from him. She wants to get to the level of perfection she reveres him for. He made the best dish she’s ever had. She is seeking something from him she didn’t get in her previous experiences, even as her own boss. That does not diminish her, that’s saying basically what her words and actions have shown us. Carmy gave her a title but he never outlined the dynamic and was wishy-washy. One minute she is “everything else” the next he’s “Yes, Cheffing” her. She was confused on where she stood at any time. When he gave feedback or tried to get her on point he never explained how or why. When he snapped at her about Tina’s insubordination I think he was trying to get her to see it didn’t matter, he wasn’t going to micromanage personal dynamics and she needed to steer the ship and do what needed to get service back on track. Instead of that he just barked. Instead of telling her what was up with the risotto and offering to workshop it with her, he was just dismissive and offered a wet eyed apology. He failed to communicate properly when she urgently needed it.

Marcus is totally new to elevated cuisine having worked at McDonald’s and his time at The Beef under Michael. Once he sees that Carmy and Sydney are coming from a whole other world he is intrigued and wants more. Moving from bread baking to becoming a real pastry chef is his vision. Another establishment may have gotten rid of him once they outsourced bread but he was kept on and given a new trajectory. He admirably catches a spark and runs with it. He starts putting in the work to immerse himself in fine patisserie knowledge and practice. Carmy does allow Marcus space to experiment. He does give Sydney authority to lead. But what he offers them is messy, undefined, and not fully realized because he isn’t capable and he is unaware of how this is being internalized by them.

Mentally, he doesn’t have the bandwidth and he also doesn’t have a healthy model to reference. We all know it takes a lot of work for someone abused to break the cycle of abuse. All he knows is his own experience. It’s easy to say okay dude, don’t do that but it's harder to just flick a switch and be different. It’s even harder when you are in your own crisis mode and are starting from fucked. Carmy’s trauma can’t just be switched off nor can his bad habits. He tries, he fails. It’s not an excuse but it is an explanation. He is a white man in pain but he’s also human. Sydney and Marcus happen to be at the receiving end. Not fair, but also not intentional. He knows he wants to do better, better just didn’t come fast enough.

My conclusions from take two are that Sydney and Marcus did make mistakes but they are not worthy of continued blame and Carmy should learn from his loss of control. Sydney totally deserves a pass. As mentioned, she came through for the team big time on numerous occasions. When she quit that’s when Carmy went into full meltdown. Him screaming wasn’t it, to me. Him losing it when she left was the full meltdown. He knows he needs her. She’s MVP. She was overworked, underpaid, harassed by Richie, and hazed. She could have and arguably should have quit many times. She could have gotten a job elsewhere but she chose to stay committed to The Beef until she couldn’t. She reached her breaking point and was like why am I putting up with this shit? I wouldn’t have, I would have been like see ya way before she did. She helped Carmy transform that place, as noted by Tina and Marcus, yet received very little in return. Maybe she abandoned the team but how many times did Carmy leave her in the lurch? Carmy messed up by not taking the minute he always asks her for and touching base about the tension over the review and making sure they were aligned on all points before launching a new service model. They could have done the run through she seemed to be asking for but he was full steam ahead and ignoring the issue.

Marcus is a slightly different story. No, I don’t think he deserves to be berated endlessly nor is he a lost cause but he does need to realize that while maybe making cakes and being on task E7 wouldn’t have fixed the shit show his repeated lack of listening to both Carmy and Sydney about staying on task was ignored. He did get space to do his thing all he was asked was to not get sidetracked. Carmy said he trusted him but he still didn’t listen. Carmy gave him a pep talk after he still didn’t listen and blew a fuse in the middle of a day that already started fucked. He still didn’t listen. The day they were starting a new service model and Carmy warned him to stay on task he still didn’t listen. When Sydney got onto him about it he still didn’t listen. That’s a lesson any employee needs to learn. I don’t care how talented and passionate you are what work place would allow you to just not listen after multiple reminders? You simply have to follow direction. Him not processing that is a huge flaw. The thing is a good, capable leader would take the time and work with him to establish a way to prioritize and create a development plan. They would see that he is going to sink if he doesn’t get that under control. It just wasn’t the time for that in the midst of all the chaos of getting The Beef solvable and Carmy wasn’t equipped to give that or recognize it was needed. What I do fault Carmy with is not taking control and realizing they couldn’t do the impossible in E7. He should have just stopped, regrouped, canceled the orders, and done a post-mortem on what went wrong. His blowup wasn’t just about the to-go’s or the review. He was holding it together, barely, for months and this was him finally blowing a fuse.

I think when some see the scene of Sydney and Marcus talking shit about Carmy they stay stuck on neither accepting blame. I took the scene as two young Black professionals bonding and talking shit because coworkers talk shit about their boss. As far as demanding apologies from Carmy or Sydney and Marcus, fine, sure, whatever. Carmy did apologize to both of them. Maybe it wasn’t as gushing and dramatic as some think he needs to be to atone. I dunno, I think it was okay for where we are in the story. Sydney and Marcus are still a bit bitter and cautious, as one would expect after being chastised in front of peers. I don’t think it’s fair to expect them to prostrate themselves to Carmy, someone they are still giving a bit of side eye to after he did humiliate them. They don’t fully understand what’s up with Carmy. He keeps things well guarded. When he opened up about Al-Anon Sydney, rightfully so, she said it was too personal. So he takes that as let me keep my shit to myself, like I always have, we ain’t that close, sorry. By the same token, Sydney and Marcus may not be at the point of being like hey, these are my experiences being Black in the workplace, thirsty for more, and feeling marginalized so I’m sensitive to x, y, z.

Everyone is in their own story and not fully transparent because they are all navigating how to exist together joyfully and productively. Nor is anyone a mind reader. But really, at the core all three of their needs and struggles are universal. Who hasn’t felt unsupported and taken for granted? Who hasn’t had to keep adulting when their world is crumbling? I think what’s needed more is a sit down between all of them to hash it out. What we got in E8 was venting from Sydney and Marcus and guilty resignation from Carmy. Not satisfying, but realistic. They have work to do as a team. They need love and forward positive movement more than they need some perceived deserved atonement. Words are easy and cheap. Anybody can say they sorry, what they actually gonna do?

My whole point is we need to look at all of them as just people. I’m not saying be blind to identity but at the core everyone’s arc could be anyone’s arc. All of their struggles are universal. I am a Black woman and I relate to all three of them for various reasons. Like Sydney, I have been the young Black girl thrust into leadership but not supported in growth. My authority has been questioned, I’ve been bullied, I’ve been given too much on my plate because I’m “so capable and being held to a higher standard.” Like Marcus, I’ve hyper fixated on a new passion to the point of obsession and had trouble figuring out how to maintain the baseline while chasing perfection. Like Carmy, I have depression and anxiety, had an addict family member who died suddenly (my mom, I didn’t go to the funeral either and had to go back home abruptly) yet still had to be the boss of a shit show while trying to heal, deal, not overshare, share, yet ask for a minute that was never given all at the same time.

I don’t know if I’m making any sense but I think everyone needs to look deeper if they seek to prioritize any of these character’s needs over another and be dismissive of anyone’s struggles. I think that’s what the show is kind of about. And maybe do the same thing with people IRL. Anything else is unproductive and unkind. There is not enough mercy, grace, empathy, and understanding.

Anyways, be blessed and Happy Holidays!

Edited to add: In no way am I dismissing the conscious or unconscious bias of some viewers who fail to empathize with Sydney and Marcus. I forgot to include that earlier. My point is conscious and unconscious bias can be at play with either take on the conflicts between these three characters.

#the bear #the bear fx #the bear hulu #carmy berzatto #sydney adamu #marcus the bear #jeremy allen white #ayo edebiri #lionel boyce

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rotationalsymmetry · 4 months

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Which btw I'm happy to reblog that sort of thing. (Prev post comparing BDSM to wrestling kayfabe, ie "this is make believe it's fine.")

But I do think an equally significant point is, if someone decides for whatever reason that kink is bad...ok, so what are you going to do about it?

Mostly that's going to cycle back to making things illegal or more difficult. Restricting which zones things like the power exchange can physically exist in. Driving kinky erotica off of Amazon. Restricting people's ability to publish information about kink. Keeping kink talk off of social media sites. Making/keeping it so that there is no legal distinction between consensual impact play and physical assault. Making it harder for people to talk explicitly about kink on dating sites, or in person with their friends.

And the thing about that, is, you can't really stop people from doing whatever they want to do in their own bedrooms (living rooms, cars, tents, hotel rooms, whatever.) Nor can you really stop people from having kinks, from wanting to do this stuff. What you can do is cut people off from community and from safety information, so that when people do do this stuff, it's more dangerous to them.

(Both more directly physically dangerous -- kink is mostly not that dangerous? but there's some risks -- and dangerous as in, people are more likely to get stuck with abusers when they can't talk to people about their relationship, or if they believe no one they talk to will understand.)

For a while it was illegal to produce BDSM porn in the US (or maybe just California? Not sure.) Did that mean BDSM porn didn't exist? Of course not. There were always videos of sexy people hitting each other that other people got off to. It just...had to look like it wasn't porn. So, no affection. No kissing. (Definitely no on-camera negotiation.) They couldn't stop BDSM porn, but they could make it worse.

The first kinky shit I did, in some ways the most extreme kinky shit I did, was with one other person that I met outside of a kink social context. He was going off some photos and his imagination. I'd read some Savage Love, so I at least knew what a safewords was. I didn't have anyone to talk to about what we were doing, I didn't have r/bdsm or anything, I had no way of getting a reality check and no way of getting more safety information as we went. And years later, I found the scene and went to classes and learned why you wrap the rope multiple times around someone's wrists rather than just once and learned about safety scissors and sharp shooting pains and aftercare and negotiation and sub drop and all sorts of things.

And I got really, really angry at the people who want me to only be able to do kink stuff the way I did it the first time. Because they'd rather I get hurt doing kink then be able to do it safely and with a community.

I don't especially want anyone to have a harm reduction approach to kink, because I don't think it's intrinsically harmful. But...I also don't need people to agree with me on that. Anyone who thinks Kink Is Bad, It Just Is well, you're the boss of your opinions! We don't have to agree on everything! But I think there's room to disagree on kink being just fine and also agree that attempting to get people to not do kink, by making it harder or illegal or more stigmatized, can only ever do more harm than good.

#kink discourse

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maygrcnt · 7 days

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Hey, sorry to come into your inbox like this I just saw something regarding buck and his dating life and I wanted to talk to you about it as I feel like you have pretty (neutral?) view point on his relationships overall. Essentially, the OP was saying how Buck isn’t off his “hamster wheel” in terms of getting into relationships, everyone’s just saying that he is “off the hamster wheel” just because he’s with a guy when this relationship with Tommy is no different than his past relationships with women. (Basically saying people are misogynistic when they say Tommy is a better LI than some of his others). They go on to give these three reasons in to show how that he isn’t off his hamster wheel: “he spent an entire episode acting like an insane person and had no idea of what or who he wanted until tommy kissed him. he had no intention of reaching out to tommy again until eddie literally had to tell him to (twice!). and he's already jumped in head-first by inviting tommy to maddie and chim's wedding before they've even had a single successful date.” Now! Listen. does this fandom have a misogyny issue? yes, especially with buck and eddie’s LI and maybe some people favor Tommy bc of their misogyny but I wouldn’t argue that suggesting Tommy is a better LI than most is inherently misogynistic or at all. Now that that’s out of the way, I find the OP’s reasoning incredibly flawed and reductive - and frankly, dismissive of Buck’s agency and thinking. The “he spent an entire episode acting like an insane person who had no idea what…” This to me is just a wild take because the whole premise of buck acting that way was to show his self discovery? Buck wasn’t consciously aware about this part of himself until the very end of the episode where everything fell into place. The whole point was that he couldn’t explain his feelings or even understand what they truly were. Do I agree with every writing decision in that episode? No I wish they had Buck apologise to Eddie on screen but I think comparing the way Buck was acting in that episode to how he’s been in the past when getting a girl is so different. Next, the “he had no intention to reach out to tommy until Eddie said something.” Um? What? it’s like they missed the part where he said he can’t stop thinking about him but feels like he made an idiot of himself? And again. Are they forgetting that this is all very new for him? Tommy told Buck that he doesn’t think Buck’s ready and I do believe a part of Buck felt that way. It’s not an easy thing to navigate and sometimes you need the encouragement. Idk it feels weird to me personally because they’re acting like Buck lacks any and all agency and had no part in the decision. Even if Eddie said to reach out doesn’t mean Buck had to or 100% would’ve. It was a conscious decision on his part. There’s also different layers to reaching out to Tommy vs reaching out a girl because he was in the midst of discovering this part of his identity. The last point they made is possibly the most logical one and everyone can agree to disagree on the quickness and seriousness of taking someone you recently met as a date to a wedding (at the end of the day, it’s a show!) but overall, I wanna say that Tommy being a guy does absolutely make this situation different. Buck has never been with a man and although his bisexuality has always been a part of him, it’s only something he started to navigate recently. Something he became aware of recently so of course he’s not going to have every single thing figured out. I’m personally neutral on buckyommy as I feel we have to see more of them to really form my opinion but to act like the set up for them is putting buck back on a hamster wheel is just something I do not agree with especially not with the reasons the poster gave. Sorry for giving you so much to read but would love to hear your take on this

okay first of all thanks for putting this in my inbox i think it’s a really interesting discussion. i wanna preface by saying thanks for feeling like im a neutral voice, i feel like im very open and honest that i am not a multishipper and buddie is my ride or die, but i genuinely love general discussion and conversation about the show regardless so i rly hope i never come across as like unwilling to consider things that go against my own personal wants. i want to try my best to give my thoughts here coming from bucks character only and not let buddie thoughts influence it but sorry if i slip there lol

second of all if op of the post mentioned here sees this pls know that this isn’t a personal attack i just like the points that are brought up and i want to give my own take on them! putting under a cut because it got … long

so in terms of the hamster wheel, i think it’s quite disingenuous to the character to say that this relationship is another rinse and repeat. i know as much as we want to claim that being with a same sex partner is no different or has the same implications as buck being with women, it just doesn’t. that’s the simple truth, the fact that he’s trying something new with a man is different and every factor that would normally be considered a part of the evan buckley hamster wheel is now being seen in an entirely different lens because of the factor that it’s a man. his entire world is truly different now, and that’s not to say a queer relationship always has to change someone’s life but it did for evan buckley and this is evident by oliver saying in the zach sang interview that this storyline has quite literally been the endpoint to the six season long arc of buck trying to find what was missing from his life. like it’s a big deal and we don’t have to pretend it’s not.

when it comes to the jealousy, it’s true that this isn’t unlike buck (201, 304, and 408 come to mind as examples of buck doing this in platonic, work, and then romantic way respectively) i don’t think it’s something characteristic of why his relationships don’t work. this is something that is a character trait of buck that we’re finally getting into working on and reasoning with through the relationship with tommy but i truly do t think it’s something that has been the reason his past romances don’t work. abby left because abby is abby, ali set a boundary for her own mental health, natalia was barely there. the only thing i would consider to be bucks irrational jealousy leading to the downfall of his relationship is him kissing lucy but even then there was a lot more going on (cough eddie leaving the 118 but i promised i wouldn’t go buddie mode).

it’s genuinely hard for me to neutrally explain why i think buck didn’t reach out to tommy before eddie told him to but, i think it comes down to the fact that when tommy told him he “wasn’t ready” it very much scooped at an insecure part of buck that believed he was too much for people and buck needed reassurance from someone who’s opinion he really valued to let him know that hey you’re not too much you just have to let people get to know you, and eddie pushed him to be willing to let tommy get to know him.

and then in terms of jumping into things too quickly… i don’t even consider that to be a part of the evan buckley hamster wheel if im so honest. i dont even like to consider abby as part of the hamster wheel discussion because if we’re honest that relationship, from a storytelling perspective was more used to characterize abby than it was buck (bucks storyline is more about the absense of abby after she leavesthan the presence of her during the relationship). ali helped him buy a place but they had been seeing each other for ~six months at that point (i think because most current fans binged season two they forget there was a genuinely large gap between their first date and the loft), and she wasn’t even actually moving in lol, that’s so reasonable to me. with taylor the asking her to move in was crazy and awful of him but NOT because of the timing. at this point they’d had an on again off again thing going for YEARS. it was bad because of the reason. brother was pretending to love her and then kissed another woman and was still gonna let her move in. THAT is why that storyline was shit, not cus of the timing.

PLUS it’s not weird to ask someone to a wedding as a second date. ESPECIALLY not when your date is already friends with half the fucking guests lmao. like i feel like maybe im weird but this specific talking point doesn’t make sense to me. it’s a big deal because buck is essentially coming out to everyone in his world, that’s why it’s big, not because it’s “too fast” for a relationship.

overall, i think this is the exact opposite of the hamster wheel. Buck is putting himself in an uncomfortable situation and seeking out something that makes him feel GOOD, seeking a person who understands who and what he is rather than someone who has to learn to live with his life. a lot of people say that tommy is there to make buck “ready” to date eddie, and while i find this problematic in a few ways when it comes to the sexuality aspect of it, i don’t think it’s entirely untrue from an emotional perspective. if this thing with tommy doesn’t end well, then at least buck now knows he deserves someone who can love him wholly and will have a better understanding of what love looks like for him (regardless of if he see that with eddie or not)

i hope this was interesting and what you were wanting to read anon, thanks for the interesting discussion <3

#911 abc #evan buckley #anon tag

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thesherrinfordfacility · 8 months

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does aziraphale understand suffering?

i spent quite a while last night thinking about this topic following reading this thought-provoking analysis from @lstarart which, as the first bit indicates, early-days aziraphale only understood what it is to suffer in the abstract when it has a direct link to whether or not someone is Good (summarising very poorly!). nonetheless, i thought perhaps the concept of suffering according to aziraphale might need exploring a little further.

(warning: very long post - frankly it's just self indulgent)

suffering from lack of self-worth

one of the most heartbreaking moments in s2 for me is when in ep6 it seems that shax has a penchant for driving right at the heart of insecurity. she demonstrates this with maggie and the insult she directs at her, which to me acts somewhat as a parallel for crowley, culminating in the line “you are unloved, and unlovable. you’re nobody, and you’ll live - and you’ll die - a nobody.” now first of all - crowley isn’t there to hear it, and so only the audience can draw this as a narrative parallel. second - maggie’s reaction is to rise up to meet shax, and fight fire with fire; she looks first back at nina, perhaps for conviction or strength, says to the demons, “my god, you lot are pathetic.”, and appears instead to own those insecurities and refuse to be ashamed of them.

but then shax later turns her attention on aziraphale, who doesn't have that same conviction nor bolster from crowley being physically present, and shax directly drives at the heart of things about him of which he ought to be ashamed. we’ve always seen these elements of aziraphale as being the most lovable parts of him, and are what makes him the enigmatic and dynamic character that he is. however, as is hinted in s1 and now becomes abundantly clear, aziraphale guards these deep in his soul as being his deepest faults, cracks that he has ignored as they have widened, and has carried as a mark of him being lacking:

“Aziraphale… what are you? Crowley’s emotional support angel? The softest touch. The one who went native. Do you need more big, human meals, Aziraphale? Shall we send up the sushi?”

ive written about this before, so a lot of this is going to be repeated, but my thought process on these particular ‘faults’ is this; it is not beyond belief that aziraphale has major issues with self-worth and feeling like he isnt ‘enough’. what shax strikes at are, as i said, elements of ‘fault’ within aziraphale that we have had glimpses of through s1 and into the earlier episodes of s2; she remarks on his propensity for indulgence (sushi/meals), his tendency to be overtrusting and naive ("softest touch"), his lack of traditional angelic quality ("went native"), and the question of what exactly crowley feels for him and what purposes aziraphale serves in their dynamic (emotional support angel").

the way i see it is that aziraphale looks to two sources when evaluating his own self worth; heaven (and possibly god by extension), and crowley. heaven and the archangels completely disregard aziraphale, and are condescending and reductive in how they perceive and interact with him, with gabriel going so far as to insult his corporation (an insecurity that, iirc, we can even glean directly from the book when aziraphale reacts 'with disappointment' to the body he is in after adam splits him from madame tracy).

and crowley? well, to my mind, crowley’s dispensation to overprotect (whilst coming from a good place, of that i’m certain) reduces aziraphale’s agency, especially when crowley essentially talks over him in ep5 (and at other points too), and i could imagine leaves aziraphale questioning what exactly he is able to contribute to their relationship other than being a receptacle for crowley’s sense of loneliness and desertion. we know that's not the case, that it's infinitely more than that, but i could imagine that in this sense of feeling dismissed, aziraphale could see it like this.

then we have the two occasions where crowley strikes at aziraphale in regards to his naivety and belief, (“how could someone as clever as you be so stupid?”, “you’re better than that, angel!”) which, whilst is entirely valid from crowley’s perspective - because aziraphale is naive in his belief in higher power being willing to do the right thing, or be better - from aziraphale’s perspective, he’s struggled through millennia of reconciling his belief system and whether or not the side that he ‘belongs to’ is in fact Good or Right, and he in this he's still struggling. but hes getting there, and crowley has effectively been by his side guiding him through this monumental shift in his psyche; to have it turned on him in this manner had to hurt, even if he knows/realises after the fact that crowley was right.

imo, all of these elements strike at the notion that aziraphale is not “good enough”, especially in the eyes of the two entities to which he needs most to in fact think of him as enough, exactly as he is, in order to affirm any sense of self-worth. as i said in another post on this point:

“he's good enough to guard the eastern gate, but not good enough to keep adam and eve from temptation. he's good enough to guard and monitor the antichrist, but not enough to be truly accepted as part of the heaven hive (his physical sentry post on earth notwithstanding). he's good enough for crowley to run away with to alpha centauri, but not enough to convince crowley to choose to stay and fight with him to prevent the apocalypse… right up until ep6 when he's good enough to be loved by crowley enough to spend eternity with, but not enough for crowley to sacrifice his hang-ups with heaven and help him rebuild it as a team so noone else ever has to suffer what they both did.”

what point am i trying to reach here, as regards aziraphale’s perspective on the concept of suffering? well, to me, in this context, he knows suffering very well. he knows suffering of the personal kind, and it has never left him. It might have burrowed its way down, hidden under the affirmation that ‘i’m happy with myself, and crowley seems to want to know me, so it’s fine’, but it never has left him. he has been essentially ignored and neglected and traumatised by his experience with heaven, and slowly dismantling that belief system has been difficult and painful. however, instead of resolving to replace the source any sense of self-esteem with a belief in himself, he appears to have instead replaced it with crowley. and that's not fair on crowley, to be put on that pedestal (yes, my favourite topic of pedestals rears its ugly head).

aziraphale takes the opportunity with heaven given by metatron not only as one that would prevent further harm to him and crowley but also to others, an opportunity arguably of a more altruistic kind, but he sees it as an assurance that he, as himself (someone who is not wholly Good and in fact has faults), is what is needed to bring change to a broken system. it wouldn’t surprise me if in s3 aziraphale initially changes his emotional allegiance to heaven, away from crowley - a mirror of his resolution at the end of s1 - because the opportunity he’s been given, in his eyes, shows that heaven considers him enough, even if crowley no longer does. he channels his suffering in a wholly unhealthy way, unable or refusing to find self-worth in anywhere but a third party where he lays his absolute loyalty, whereas instead he needs to find it within himself first and foremost.

suffering from fear of discovery

somewhat leading on from this is aziraphale's fear of his and crowley's relationship being discovered. ive covered this in multiple other posts, but please be mindful that i go into this section under my own interpretation that neither crowley nor aziraphale have been in love with each other since the pre-fall scene. aziraphale is clearly crushing on the angel who crowley was (AWCW), that much is obvious (and AWCW is rather... ignorant of this), and even in a short space of time aziraphale comes to care enough for AWCW that he experiences concern and fear for the repurcussions should he start asking questions. but i don't think he's in love.

arguably, aziraphale and crowley from eden onwards begin very much as acquaintances. this evolves into allyship and burgeoning friendship, but the tone of their relationship to each other doesnt seem to shift until 1601, when aziraphale vocalises his worry over their arrangement, "but if hell finds out, they won't just be angry - they'll destroy you." aziraphale doesn't express any kind of concern for himself, only for crowley.

now this, i think, is a reflection of aziraphale's prejudice on hell being the black in the black and white; even if heaven found out, whilst they'd be angry, they wouldnt do anything drastic because it's the side of love and mercy. hell by contrast is torture and pain and cruelty. but beyond this - because i do think at this point aziraphale has started to truly recognise that crowley is not of hell himself - i think it is also out of genuine concern compared to that of his own wellbeing. the two reasons are not mutually exclusive.

this kind of continues into 1793; crowley tells him not to thank him for rescuing him, and aziraphale seems to recognise that crowley has a point - he immediately rewords his thanks as being "very grateful", and instead offers a transaction to express his gratitude. maybe not as deep and meaningful, but he seems to recognise that placing crowley under any scrutiny, however inadvertently, could spell for disaster. there is also the suggested risk of heaven now potentially keeping a closer eye on aziraphale, which is compounded by the legendary chocolates scene that didn't unfortunately make its way into the final cut.

that being said, the scene is in the script book - and as such, im mindful to accept it firmly as canon (can't remember if neil has confirmed it canon or not, given its not in the show). as a recap: in this, gabriel and sandalphon turn up unexpectedly to aziraphale's bookshop just before its opening in 1800, tell him he's being commended, and is required to return to heaven, thereby abandoning his sentry post on earth.

at this point, unnoticed by gabriel and sandalphon, crowley turns up armed with a gift box of chocolates. aziraphale pushes that he needs to remain in earth, citing that only he is able to properly thwart his hellish counterpart, adding that crowley is wily and cunning and brilliant - prompting gabriel to remark that it sounds like aziraphale admires him. this aziraphale understandably immediately denies, adding that he can't possibly like or admire a demon, but does respect him. crowley at this point has disappeared, but later enacts a pantomime that gabriel overhears, and gabriel resolves later to keep aziraphale stationed in earth.

if nothing else, this must put the alarm bells in aziraphale's head that heaven can turn up any time they want, and it could be at the most damning time; in this instance, it very nearly was. i would like to think that crowley understood why aziraphale had to say what he did, understood it was nothing personal, and aziraphale absolutely does not think this himself, and it was instead a ruse to protect them both from discovery. but following on from this scene? it would stand to reason that that fear is always in the back of aziraphale's mind; that heaven is just as capable as hell of ripping them apart and potentially making them suffer for it.. and in this case, the separation would have been a byproduct. imagine what their sides could do if they actually tried.

but back to 1827, where crowley is pulled down the hell hatch; what i personally believe to potentially be a direct consequence of aziraphale complimenting him on doing a good deed, and hell potentially overhearing. but this moves swiftly into 1862, which starts off tense and cold, for reasons that ive recently parsed out. aziraphale is placed into an incredibly difficult position by crowley's request for holy water. crowley is desperate for it, his body language and certain cues in that scene support that, but aziraphale doesn't fully know why. we, the audience, can hypothesise that it's likely a direct result of the 1827 yeeting, but aziraphale doesn't necessarily know that - a) because he's not truly listening to crowley in that conversation, and b) crowley presumably hasn't told him. at the very least, aziraphale doesn't seem to put the puzzle pieces together until 1967.

he immediately refuses the holy water because it could harm crowley, and to boot would mean that aziraphale himself would come under scrutiny. in the same breath, he reduced their friendship to fraternisation, either out of hurt/upset of crowley having ghosted him for (what we assume is) 35 years, or to put distance between them for crowley's and his safety; it'll be horrendous enough to be discovered for that, let alone if either side find out how far the fraternisation has actually gotten. if you bring the 1800 missing scene into this, that reaction would make sense.

1941 is rather self-explanatory, because it openly poses the risk that if aziraphale and crowley's relationship were discovered, crowley would be subject to a pretty shit existence in hell. aziraphale saves them though, and all is well, but it was a remarkably close shave. i do think that we are missing a key part of context that will be revealed in s3, but for the moment let's speculate that there is a trilogy aspect to 1941, and in that last part they get a little too close to More, and/or the reason behind the holy water request is revealed and discussed, but for sake of crowley's immediate safety aziraphale once again refuses.

between then and 1967, aziraphale seems to come to the conclusion that crowley having access to holy water is the lesser of two evils, and even if it is dangerous, it is infinitely more palatable than crowley being subject to whatever hell could bring to him. aziraphale hands it over, but is still beside himself at doing so - that he could be responsible for crowley's destruction - and physically and emotionally distances himself from crowley because of the implications of it. but nonetheless it seems that aziraphale firmly places crowley's wellbeing above his own, and risks discovery in order to ensure that crowley has a way out if things go tits up again.

i think it can be accepted that crowley and aziraphale don't truly interact again until 2008(?) when the antichrist business begins. aziraphale visibly blanches at gabriel's mention of crowley in the sushi bar, which i think can be interpreted as being out of that long-stagnating guilt of their association, reawakening the fear of heaven finding out, and also just out of good ol' fashioned pain of the separation aziraphale presumably enforced following, "you go too fast for me".

their interactions from st james seem stilted and tense (even in the ritz and the bookshop, to me it all feels very business-like, especially from aziraphale's perspective), up until tadfield manor, where their old dynamic seems to rise to the surface for air, and they settle into their old familiarity. crowley gets aggressive about being complimented, but it seems that aziraphale's fear of heaven finding out about them takes a backseat. that express lack of fear doesn't really come back to bite aziraphale until the archangels later accost him, and accuse him of consorting with the enemy - aziraphale denies this, not knowing that they have literal evidence of it.

but once we cycle through to the airfield, it feels like all bets are off; because as far as theyre both concerned, they're breaking away from heaven and hell. they do their little body swap, get them momentarily off their backs, and they don't have to hide anything anymore. we find out from crowley's perspective in s2 that that isn't entirely the case - that shax and beelzebub still manage to work their way into his life - but he doesn't tell aziraphale, and aziraphale assumes that they're free to live - and love? - as they please. this is evident in how gung-ho (by aziraphale standards) he goes in demonstrating his affection for crowley throughout s2.

aziraphale suffers for his association with crowley, and crowley for vice versa. and they both know that the other suffers, or at least surmises it. aziraphale specifically knows that their relationship, if the full extent were truly discovered, could lead to their respective downfalls, and this is where i think the true point of suffering comes into this context. aziraphale is obviously apprehensive of what heaven would do and how they would react to their relationship, but it's never really explicit what exactly he fears - he never mentions a fear of falling, for example. no, instead, the only true fear he vocalises is what would happen to crowley - a much more powerful and compelling motivator for hiding the truth.

and that has to hurt aziraphale, this being of love who wholly cares and (post-1941) loves crowley (and arguably also realises that crowley might have Feelings for him too), but the safety of the subject of that love is directly compromised should he act on it, or even acknowledge it. the only time he truly does is at the end of s2, by pleading with crowley to finally be with him where he (in his mind) thinks they won't have to hide anymore - who would dare challenge them? - but crowley can't do it.

and that's understandable, but it will require them to not only mask what they feel for each other from their respective sides (as if metatron didn't know already - he explicitly states that he knows about their association), but also now, once again and with the aim of not fully feeling the pain of their separation, from each other. the need to mask and hide and camouflage that love is suffering of a different kind, and again - aziraphale knows it all too well.

suffering from crisis in belief

now this is where i think we get to the kind of suffering that either aziraphale can't understand, or refuses to acknowledge because of the implications threatening to shake apart a core tenet of his character.

for this, im going to start back at the beginning, and specifically with adam and eve. aziraphale seems to know that without a literal weapon to protect themselves - which so happens to be a flaming sword, he went all-out - their lives are going to be rather short ones. eve is already expecting a baby, and aziraphale sees the absolute need to protect human life as paramount. he is a guardian, so this would track. he seems to understand that they would come to harm, that they would suffer, if they didn't have a means with which to defend themselves. the only key point that he and crowley both seem to miss is the implication of knowledge, specifically between good and evil, could also lead to suffering in humanity.

aziraphale just seems to know that it must be bad, even after literally seeing the fall (presumably) first hand... there is an issue with knowing the difference between good and evil, because it leads to conflict. but when crowley brings up that god should have made it more difficult to get to the tree, if it would lead to this, aziraphale chalks it up to all being 'ineffable'. he justifies that whatever happens to humanity - and by extension whatever suffering it encounters - it will all have been for a reason. that being said, he obviously feels some degree of doubt; he gives them the sword.

then we come on to mesopotamia, a thousand years later, when aziraphale is faced with the flood. he tries to excuse the flood by way of remarking that it only appears to be localised, and even then some humans are going to be spared. but crowley quite rightly points out that there are children that will be killed, and aziraphale meekly agreed, giving the suggestion that he too thinks it immoral, but that they cannot judge the almighty, and once again it must all be for a Reason. this extends into uz, when aziraphale battles directly with disobeying god's orders to bring suffering to job and his family when they have done nothing but be loyal and faithful in god. he remarks that he doesn't think that this is truly what god wants, but evidently can't be sure - and yet nonetheless fully commits to ending their suffering, and in turn expects to fall for it. he doesn't.

we then fast-forward to golgotha, and both of them watch as god's son is crucified, this time adding that he doesn't get consulted on policy decisions - intimating that if he did, if he had a choice, this wouldn't be happening at all, and he would end jesus' suffering. this one is difficult, because we as the audience know that the wider context is that jesus is submitting himself to die for humanity's sins; we could assume that aziraphale doesn't necessarily know this, but maybe he does, and to know might hypothetically cause him further internal conflict. does he save the one, and ensure the suffering of the rest? to have that dilemma would bring him too close to acting god, but it's an interesting prospect nonetheless. in any case, aziraphale seems to recognise jesus' suffering.

we don't really then have any further flashbacks of aziraphale being faced with human suffering until 1793, with the reign of terror. it doesn't go into detail on the intricacies of the terror or indeed the revolution, but he does remark that the execution of suspected and confirmed counter-revolutionists was "terrible". he remarks to crowley that he had heard france was getting rather "carried away", which would indicate that he had at least heard of what was happening and why.

we could take this in either two ways; that aziraphale, as a foreshadowing of 1827 - doesn't see why the people were revolting (and resulting at this point in robespierre and the committee's measures) - doesn't understand why people would be driven through their suffering to revolt, or he does see it and still feels that the measures they've resulted are not suitably justified. we don't have enough narrative of aziraphale in this particular setting to be able to reliably gauge what aziraphale's reaction to the terror truly is.

if i were optimistic, however, i would say it was the latter, because that would indicate that aziraphale has a higher level of thought on suffering, but still finds that the terror is unjustifiable - i think that would be a perfectly fair conclusion to arrive at, objectively. but unfortunately i think it is the former - that he doesn't really stop to consider why the people are revolting, doesn't see why the objectively awful thing they are doing may actually have moral justification, and what has driven them to these extremes. again, we don't know the reason why this might pose internal conflict for aziraphale... but we definitely do in 1827.

everyone knows this minisode, i think; a lot of it hinges on aziraphale being faced point-blank with reconciling why morality is not binary, and is always dualistic. he sees elspeth digging up bodies, desecrating them, and selling them to a surgeon for money. this is bad. he justifies his conviction because it is an immoral thing to do, and instead elspeth should have chosen another, more righteous, good, path. crowley correctly points out that that is difficult - if not impossible - when to do good is not an option that you can afford, or it has not been afforded to you. aziraphale argues that in fact to have experienced suffering, to start from the bottom, gives you more opportunities and more choices to chose the good thing simply because it's good. he further argues that it is ineffable, and that suffering is ultimately for a Reason.

but then he learns what is done with the bodies. he cradles the tumour of a young boy that didn't survive because doctors and surgeons didn't know what it was. he is confronted with the prospect that what he believes to be bad is in fact good, because it leads in this instance to human advancement and the possibility of ending suffering to more people. and he still misses the point. it's not as simple as switching out the label, because nothing is wholly good or bad; everything is a bit of both.

digging up bodies has the potential to hurt the people that mourn that person, but it educates others into ensuring that medically-preventable death doesn't need to happen. you could extrapolate this to elspeth - giving her the money doesn't guarantee her a better life, it could even make her a target, but it gives her a chance to feed and house herself away from the streets. preventing her suicide is good because her life is worth living and she could give and do so much, but she'll now presumably live her life suffering through the grief of losing morag. all he - and crowley - can do is give her the choice, and that is the right thing.

i think the ultimate issue with aziraphale being confronted with the suffering of humanity is that it directly plunges his belief into crisis, and specifically the belief that god is good, that god is benevolent, and god is ineffable. he watches as people suffer - all the examples ive listed above - and it directly contradicts his steadfast confidence in god and her action/inaction, because it leads to the question 'why'. further than that - what if he doesn't agree with the answer, if it's ever given? he definitely sees and acknowledges suffering, but doesn't look deeper into why they are given suffering in the first place, because of what answer he could potentially find.

aziraphale opts to turn a blind eye, to deliberately not see it, because he is scared of the possibility that he doesn't agree. he might not even realise he's doing it; that he's avoiding confronting the fact that he might not like what he finds. as i alluded to in the golgotha example, to potentially know more would be to place him in the position of god; able - and potentially enticed - to change the paths that people are going down that they should be able to follow or divert off of by their own choice.

heres where i come to the example of maggie; she is struggling with paying the rent, and resolves to move out. aziraphale initially doesn't fully comprehend that she cannot pay, just chalks it up to him being absent-minded and forgets the concept of not being able to pay for things, but when she clarifies, he offers up the opportunity to just forget the debt. ultimately, it means nothing to him, but i don't think he means this in a superior way; he's a supernatural, millions-year-old being where money is frankly irrelevant. its obvious that forgiving the debt, regardless, benefits him, and acts as his main motivator (and he even acknowledges this to crowley, "it hardly counts; a purely selfish action."), but he is being indirectly benevolent and kind through that selfish action. a bit of good, a bit of bad. maggie is grateful, but he doesn't take any gratification from it - if anything, he looks uncomfortable.

i think it's possible that now, following his historical experiences, being in the position of being able to do good somewhat makes him more uncomfortable that he's willing to admit. because to do good like this would be to acknowledge suffering. acknowledging suffering by way of countering it puts him in the position of having to understand why the suffering exists. and if suffering exists, then that shakes his belief of god - and himself - being good in the first place.

#good omens #a very VERY convoluted meta and frankly i absolutely hate it #there is so much wrong or non-sensical about it but i did my best #but i spent so much time on it that i couldnt not post it #so im resolving to just bury it in other posts lmao #if there are errors just pretend you didnt see them pls #aziraphale meta #s1 meta #s2 meta #flashback meta

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