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nineteensixtieschikadee · 3 years

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Arya Stark & Femininity

This might turn into a mini rant, so bear with me here. A lot of times whenever I watch old GOT clips, (bc I hate myself) and read stuff about Arya on fansites, I realize that there’s been a lot of misconception about her and her character. Particularly about her being a woman. And a lot of times i see this sort of “justification” from her fans that the reason why she’s such a fan-favorite character in the show (and to some extent, the books?) is because Arya is esentially this “bad-ass ninja asassin tomboy who’s out for revenge against those who’ve killed her family.” And some of her fans and especially her anti’s will call her out expressing that “Arya’s only a child who doesn’t like girly things like dresses and boys and doing her hair. She “identifies” herself as a tomboy because she likes “boyish things” like sword play, and playing in the mud, and gore, wrestling, etc. I was scrolling through the Jonrya tag here on Tumblr, this is a comment I found regarding Arya:

The moment I read that I straight up just wanted to rant! Lol! Also, I’m sorry for the formatting, I’m writing this on mobile. :( Anyways, these people who make those claims about Arya, esentially only see her as this small girl who likes fighting and getting dirty. They completely disregard everything else that makes Arya, Arya. Pretty much just limiting her to her sex, understanding that because Arya likes boyish things, she’s NOT ALLOWED to inherit things, like the North, fall in love and get married, have a high position in the hierarchy and in politics. It’s because that these people see her as someone who hates needlework or everything that isn’t Sansa, everyone believes that she hates everything that makes her FEMALE. Everybody here knows that Arya’s my favorite female character in the books, so I just wanna talk about how the general public views her, and how their views tend to go against Arya’s entire character.

People have this view that she is the “exact opposite” of Sansa. And while that’s true in terms of their different characteristics, it doesn’t mean that Arya is against everything that makes Sansa, feminine. Now lemme elaborate here. Sansa is everything that represents “femininity.” Especially in terms of the inspired time period that ASOIAF takes place in. She’s very girly & lady-like, is mannerful, “soft-spoken.” She daydreams about boys and being a princess. She’s graceful and elegant. She knows her place in terms of society, and as a woman. AND YEAH, Arya is the exact opposite of that. Yes, she has this boyish nature. She’s wild and free spirited. Loud also adventerous. But that’s the thing: Arya has a lot of femininity in her. It’s just not the femininity that we’re used to. What society percieves as “normally feminine.”

Arya is not Sansa. And it’s because she doesn’t act like a “lady” that the audience sees her as this girl who “doesn’t want” or most importantly, should not want/get the same treatment as the typical noblewoman in Westeros should recieve. This idea was engraved into people’s heads because of the show, and that’s how we’re supposed to see her. As this cold hearted ninja assasin warrior who happens to be a girl, but doesn’t act like a typical girl. The audience pretty much places her in the “I’m not like other girls” trope. Which is honestly, so wrong to me. Because yeah okay, Arya isn’t like the typical lady. But god, she is far deeper than that, and is a much more complex character.

Here’s the thing, Arya does not reject being a female, and most importantly, she does not reject the typical ideals of what makes a lady feminine. Of course not. In fact, she actively encourages that women be included in all things, especially in things only made for men. She believes that women should not be held back or ignored because of their sex and femininity.

“The Lannister’s are proud,” Jon observed. “You’d think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother’s House equal in honor to the king’s.”

“The woman is important too!” Arya protested.

This excerpt is from Arya’s very first chapter in AGOT. It is also my favorite Jonrya moment, lol. And asides from the scene foreshadowing potential plot points for not only Jon & Arya, the scene introduces to us and examines Arya’s perception of society and more specifically, the women in society. In this scene Arya joins Jon in observing Prince Joffrey, talking about the Lannister/Baratheon coat of arms. Jon makes a point that while the Baratheon sigil should be enough to prove that Joffrey is of royalty, the Lannisters (Cersei) are a proud house, married into the royal family. So therefore Joffrey is of house Baratheon AND Lannister. That is why the Lannister sigil stands besides the Baratheons. Because they, specifically Cersei, should be seen as equal to the king.

And while Jon makes this seem like it’s wrong or not needed, Arya disagrees with him. She tells him that the women should not be forgotten, as they should be seen as equal to the men. That the women are just as important as the men, and that it would be of good conduct to not forget that. And with that being said, she never acknowledges that Joffrey’s mother is too lady-like or too feminine to be seen as an equal to the king. Nope. Although she does question later as to why if women cannot fight, why should they have a coat of arms. Though that is hardly the point of her argument.

Another point that makes people believe that Arya is not feminine or does not support femininity, is when she flat out says to Ned that she hates the idea of being a lady.

“Your mother and I have charged her with the impossible task of making you a lady.”

“I don’t want to be a lady,” Arya flared.

Alot of people misinterpret this as Arya not wanting to be a noblewoman, because she only likes to play with swords, and get dirty. Because acting like a lady is stupid and not her. This is simply not true. Arya has no problem with women, or being a lady. She is a lady. A highborn one. What she does have a problem with is that being a lady often means being trapped in the conformities of what society percieves to be the acceptable standard for women in this time period.

All of the acceptable standards is what Sansa is. And she is not like Sansa. She does not believe herself to be a lady like her sister or her mother. When she first reveals her true identity to Gendry in ACOK, he immediately apologizes to her for his behavior and calls her m’lady. :3 Arya unfortunately sees this as a form of mockery and an attack because while Gendry acknowledges that she is a lady, Arya doesn’t act like a typical lady or even look like one. That insecurity of not being a lady like her mother and sister makes her believe that Gendry is using her sex against her. Like a form of irony. But I mean, we all know that’s far from the truth, lol!

And Jon recognizes this too! It’s the reason why they are so close and tightly knit together. Because Jon understands Arya, and sees her insecurity like how she sees his. They are one and the same. Jon sees and understands Arya’s frustrations of sexism viewed in Westeros. He acknowledges that Arya is to become a lady. But he also sees that Arya is not the conventional type of lady wanting to stick to the norms. She is a different type of lady, and to him, that is okay. He may tease her for it once in a while, pointing out all the unfair limitations that women have to go through. But he accepts her for being this unconventional noblewoman, and often encourages her to pursue being different.

“Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister.”

Later when Jon and Arya say their goodbyes, Jon gifts Arya with the swords. Needle. This is his way of saying, fuck all them haters, be who you wanna be. Solidifying the idea that he supports her and accepts her for who she is. Kinda like how Tyrion told him to use his identity as armour, Arya should do the same to herself. It’s okay to be different than the rest. Fuck the rules.

It’s not that Arya hates the idea of being a lady. It’s a far cry from that. It’s the sexism that goes along with being the typical lady that infruiates her. Arya loves running around, riding horses, playing with swords, being loud and adventurous. She has a firery temper to her. And just because she likes doing all of that, and is all of that, it doesn’t mean, shouldn’t mean that she isn’t a lady. That she can’t be a lady. All of those things shouldn’t limit her to being viewed as a girl, a highborn lady. She is a woman, and she identifies as one.

“Listen to him, boy.”

“It was the third time he had called her “boy.” “I’m a girl,” Arya objected.

That is why, even though she sees herself as a woman, she often tells herself and other people that she is not a lady. Despite others telling her that she is one. Her insecurity and her frustrations do not allow her to see herself as a lady because she isn’t a “conventional woman.”

But the thing is, even though Arya doesn’t enjoy most of the typical lady-like things, she still has a ton of femininity to her. And people often ignore her more feminine traits in favor of her more “badassery” side, which unfortunately are most often occupied by men. People forget and downright ignore that Arya is really intelligent. She particularly excels in math. It’s one of the few things that she’s better at than Sansa. She loves flowers—like her aunt Lyanna. The very person who she’s said to look and act like the most. And a really important one is that she has motherly instincts. It’s what helps her protect other kids throughout her journey. Her ability to empathize enables her to be more social with outcasts and befriend others without judgement. She is well-mannered and kind to strangers. (An example of this would be when she apologizes to a common woman who lent her a dress to wear, and she accidentally destroys it because she and Gendry were playing by the acorn tree.) She can also cook and clean just like any other woman—or any other person. All of those are feminine traits, and are traits that make her more human. And the show opted to get rid of all that and gave us some cold-hearted, angry, ninja.

The audience perceives that because Arya is this ninja warrior who rejects the common standards of being a lady, it means that she can’t have these other more female traits. Nope. She’s not allowed to have or want more rights and power because that’s not her. She’s a warrior and nothing more. She can’t find love because she has to be this bad-ass independent woman who don’t need no man. That’s not her, that’s her sister. We can’t have Arya be any more female than she already is because she rejects the idea of being female. Leave all that crap to her sister! Sansa’s the princess—and we can’t have Arya being a princess or queen. Arya’s only allowed to carry a sword.

And it’s the audience’s perception of her that goes against everything that Arya is, and everything that she believes in. Because remember, Arya hates the idea that being a lady means being trapped in the societal norms. And it can be said vice versa too. Arya still respects those who want to be more of the conventional type. Arya may not have the more typical feminine traits that make her a lady, but to hell with it! It doesn’t mean that she’s not allowed to have the other things that the more conventional woman would/should have. That goes against all of her views and beliefs. The audience puts Arya at an unfair standard because she doesn’t act like a conventional woman.

It’s the same thing as the audience saying that Jon Snow doesn’t want a title or power, because he’s devoted his life to the Nights Watch and is unselfish. False. Very false. Just like Arya. Arya’s young. She still has time to grow, and no doubt she doesn’t think of all those things now because of other priorities. But she’s slowly getting there. And there is so much foreshadowing of her finding love, becoming a woman gaining power, etc, etc. She’s not there yet, but that’s a part of her growth. Just because she defies the typical female standards, it doesn’t mean she doesn’t want or wont want all those things later.

Like com’on. Everyone knows that Arya is the only legitimate candidate right now to inherit the North. Everyone knows. The Northmen know, the Nights Watch knows, the people in Kings Landing knows. Hell, even the damn wildings know this. And it’s because of this knowledge that formed the majority of the northern plotline in ADWD. People are going to war for her. She is the true key to the North, and that’s why the Boltons lied and said that they have her. It’s why Jon went to war and died for her. I don’t think Arya will truly believe it if/when she finds out that people are fighting for her because she holds the power to the North. Unless Jon’s gonna be the one to tell her himself. The fact that she is being set up to inherit all this power, and yet people deny it and believe that she doesn’t want it because it’s “not her” in regards that she’s not feminine enough, is seriously infuriating.

I mean look at the type of women Arya respects and idolizes. Where do you think she got the name Nymeria from? Nymeria’s name originates from the Princess of Dorne herself, Princess Nymeria of Ny Sar. Princess Nymeria was said be very beautiful, strong-willed, cunning, and full of wisdom. She was a “warrior-queen.” From that alone, her femininity clearly did not matter. She was a woman whose goals were not held back because of her femininity and sex.

Arya does not hate femininity or things that makes women more feminine. She doesn’t truly hate wearing dresses or being a lady. It’s being conformed to the general standards that she hates. It’s her sex being used against her that makes her angry. It’s not being able to be herself that she despises. And thanks to Sansa and her mother’s judgement of her, Arya’s insecurity only heightened. Despite looking exactly like Lyanna, Arya herself believes that she’s not beautiful enough to even be considered a lady. Only Jon and Ned allowed Arya to be Arya. Only they called her beautiful, and only they encouraged her to be who she wanted to be. Arya loves her fellow women. And yeah, she also loves Sansa despite her being such a pain in the ass bitch, lol.

Arya’s character encourages women to just be women. She encourages us the audience to just be ourselves despite all the conformities forced upon us. Her character explores the limitations of sex, gender, and especially the loss of identity. Arya not wanting to be a lady doesn’t actually mean she doesn’t want to be a lady. She doesn’t want to be held back by the standards of being a lady. Her question, her argument is that why should women be limited only to being this or that. Women are far more than meets the typical standard, and if society can’t accept it, then fuck that! Women can be knights and still be a lady. They can be fierce and passionate and emotional and still be a lady. Women can be warriors and still be a lady. Just because there are some women out there who don’t fit the ideal standards of what it means to be lady, it shouldn’t make them feel like less than one.

#Arya Stark #Arya Stark meta #game of thrones #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #jon snow #Gendry Baratheon #Jonrya #Gendrya #Arya is a feminist #When is TWOW come out?! I miss her!!#Also shes going through puberty in the next book so uh that’ll be interesting hm?#Ya’ll Dany may be going mad in the books too #But I mean Dany and Arya NEED to interact at least 1 pls George give it to me :(#Anti GOT

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masterthespianduchovny · 5 years

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Sansa Stark, the benevolent white woman fantasy

For years, I theorized to myself that many of Sansa��s stans justified and vehemently defended her behavior because they saw themselves in her, specifically white girls and women. Sansa is beautiful, delicate, polite, and well meaning. Every once in a while she has a well placed zinger, but she is unoffensive and doesn’t challenge the system--she embraces it.

Either the second or third episode of the 8th season, after many posters, including myself, criticized Sansa’s behavior towards Dany, a woman (presumably white) wrote a heartfelt comment that got many love reactions. She literally talked about how she related to Sansa (she wasn’t referring to the abuse), especially because there was nothing special or magical about her. I can’t remember everything she said minus thinking that comment had nothing to do with anything and that, of course, all of Sansa’s bullshit is justified because someone related to her.

There isn’t anything wrong with relating to Sansa, the issue lies in the inability to criticize her actions and narrative function. It’s how everything she does is excused and she’s framed as the only person who ever had anything bad happen to her. It’s the constantly demonizing/shitting on other female characters and claiming misogyny is the ONLY reason she’s hated.

It’s the fucking audacity of fans to say shit like, “Sansa doesn’t want another white woman ruling over her” as if Sansa isn’t a fucking privileged white woman. It’s accusing Dany of white feminism when Sansa and her stans are peak white feminism. It’s calling Dany a colonist and imperialist as if Sansa wasn’t and isn’t reaping the benefits of those things by the end of the show. It’s trying to frame Dany as a racist when Sansa expresses contempt for foreigners (brown people) and wants to maintain a land of whiteness.

Constantly, I read about how much Sansa has suffered as if no one else in the fucking series has suffered. I don’t want to fucking debate who's suffered more because that shit doesn’t matter, but apparently, the more you suffered, the more your shit is excused and the more you “deserve.”

But, let’s get one thing clear: as tragic as Sansa’s abuse and trauma is, she’s far more privileged than Dany. Which is why focusing solely on Sansa’s abuse and trauma is bullshit IN THAT CONTEXT.

Sansa grew up in a loving two parent home surrounding by siblings and never wanted for anything. Sansa’s parents were protective over her. Sansa never worried about food or being harmed. Sansa had servants. Her life was stable.

Dany grew up on the streets begging for food and always moving from home to home because there was a target on her head. Dany’s parents were dead. Dany was abused by her own brother. Her life was unstable.

So, please, keep explaining how Dany is a privileged white woman. Her major privilege was her last name, but this was a double edged sword because people either wanted to kill her or claim she was mad.

Regardless, Sansa had everything that Dany did not. Sansa dreamed of being a queen, Dany did not. Sansa grew up in a loving home; Dany was ripped from her home, brought to a foreign land, and was homeless. Sansa legitimately has a place to call home and what does Dany have--or had?

Sansa has a family--people who are literally willing to kill for her. And Dany had herself. Everything she fucking had she got on her own. Not because of her brother fighting a battle she guilted him into or a creepy “uncle” who is in with her or a king brother granting her independence.

No, Dany had three dragon eggs that were dormant for over 200 years that she walked through the fire to hatch herself. She inspired people from various lands and kingdoms to follow her. Although she was a Targaryen, most didn't follow her because of her name, but because of who she was as a person. She challenged the status quo. She cared for others who came from different backgrounds and didn't look like herself. She learned their languages and customs--they had a place in the new kingdom she was trying to build.

And Sansa...”fuck you if you ain’t us.” Sansa didn’t just want Dany out of the North, she wanted the Dothraki and the Unsullied out of there too. The brown people. Just like Dany, they didn't do anything for her, except protect their North and lose their lives in the process. Sansa only cared for the North and, if you’re a decent person, that’s not how you do things. Hell, that's not how her parents did things.

But, like I said, Sansa is the benevolent white woman fantasy. She’s supposedly more caring and understanding, so her actions, no matter how dubious, automatically means it’s for the greater good of others, right??

It’s okay that she didn’t tell Jon that the Vale may be coming, despite his clear and obvious feelings of anxiety and desperation. I mean, what if he messed it all up even though Sansa never gave him the opportunity to make an informed decision.

It’s okay to lob insults about Jon being sexist, despite her being in the battle war planning and having an opportunity to speak, but chose not to. And then, when she did, she gave vague warnings.

It’s okay that she baited Jon into fighting her battle for Winterfell by mentioning Rickon only to tell Jon not to fight for him because “he’s dead anyways”, which is another example of her withholding information.

It’s okay that she almost killed her sister, despite knowing the man who has helped her is a master manipulator and is on a quest for power. The man she saw kill her aunt, and then lie about why. The same man who kissed her and told her that he was in love with her mom.

It’s okay that she made a promise to Jon in front of the weirwood, and then broke it because she didn’t want Dany to have power.

These same people pretend they are pro woman, but don’t hesitate to shit on other women when given a chance. In addition to dragging Dany--even before the BBQ’d KL--they also hated Arya for a long time and some still do to an extent. Some of them only came around because Arya and Sansa made up and Arya has killed for and defended Sansa. Oh, but before that, they were calling her a psychopath and heartless--yet, Arya has some of the most meaningful relationships between the two of them. Okay...

Dany is rejected because she’s trying to dismantle the system.

Arya is rejected because she doesn’t and refuses to fit inside of the system.

But, Sansa...oh, Sansa, the only change that she wants to make is to rule a kingdom of her own. She’s beautiful, gentle, and her anger is pretty--it isn’t ugly like Dany and Arya’s. She’s incredibility feminine and wants to protect her home and people even if that means putting others in harms way or being hostile to people who helped her--it was for the North’s wellbeing, you have to excuse her!

Sansa is a projection and to admit that she’s flawed, backstabbing and underhanded, and for herself means to admit that they, her fans, are as well and that their feminism is performative. It means that they are mediocre and won’t ascend to the heights they want to.

Granted, there a WOC who are stans of Sansa and vehemently defend her, but there is a cognitive dissonance there as well. I’m not saying that WOC cannot or should not like Sansa, I’m saying there is no way you can lob criticism at Dany that doesn’t apply to Sansa and, at times, tenfold. It’s okay to like Sansa and it’s okay to defend her at times, but there is an inherent hypocrisy to hating Dany for the same reasons they love Sansa. Or how they’re critical of Arya for breathing, but are “pro woman.”

Because, no matter how much white women fuck over other people--including their fellow white women, they see themselves as good and kind and that’s why it’s a fantasy. Since they see themselves in Sansa, she cannot be bad or flawed. They can list all of the shit that happened to Sansa, like themselves, and what she’s doing for others, yet, conveniently, they either don’t know what the others did or downplay their acts of kindness and goodness.

I just need her stans to quit the fucking crap.

Sansa is one of the worst "good people” in GOT and that’s based off of character alone.

#anti sansa stark #got #game of thrones #got meta #pro dany #daenerys defense squad #daenerys targaryen #Arya Stark

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battlestar-royco · 5 years

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Elaborating on Sansa and Daenerys’s White Femininity

This post is a counterargument to the hierarchical positioning of Sansa as the embodiment of white femininity and white feminism in Daenerys’s favor. To name only one of these two characters as the emblem of white femininity and white feminism is disingenuous because all of Martin’s white women are different representations of white feminism and femininity. The story is written within a pseudo-feudal European framework and as such, the main gender dynamics he portrays in depth focus on the issues experienced by white cisgender women--with the exception of Arianne. Brienne and Arya struggle with the gender binary, and Catelyn and Cersei struggle with underestimation from male peers and internalized misogyny. Daenerys struggles as a queen and Sansa struggles as a hostage being groomed by abusers. Daenerys and Sansa can be treated as foils for each other in regards to their whiteness and femininity and their use of their sociopolitical identities to enact change. Both of them are conventionally attractive, as implied multiple times in the text through several character POVs, and obviously in the show are played by extremely conventionally-featured Sophie Turner and Emilia Clarke. They are both meant to be beautiful, both coveted by men who seek to hold some sort of authority over their lives. They both use their appearances to navigate political landscapes. Their social privilege is integral to both their characters.

So first of all, yes: Sansa is meant to represent the ideal (white, cis, wealthy) femininity of Westeros, but this argument and the argument that she represents white feminism desperately needs some dimensionality. Aside from Arya, Asha, and Brienne, Sansa is a representation of ideal white femininity as much as any other noble white Westerosi female character (especially narrators) in ASOIAF--so that includes Catelyn, Cersei, Margaery, and... absolutely Daenerys. That being said, Arya, Asha, and Brienne’s chapters are also meant to make commentary on the multiple different ways in which womanhood and femininity can manifest in Westeros. Sansa’s privilege, namely her ableism and classism, is as much integral to her character as Cersei and Cat’s internalized misogyny, ableism, and classism. (We’ll get to Daenerys’s flaws later.) Further, Sansa is not an advocate of external social change any more than any of the aforementioned characters (except for Dany of course). In fact, her mentality is probably most similar to Cat’s, who is an advocate of peace.

Though we understand her intended modus operandi should she ever become queen (“I will make them love me,” directly positioned as a foil to Cersei’s MO--Cersei, whose actions greatly contributed to the War of Five Kings, and her rule to the downfall of House Lannister), Sansa simply does not get the chance to advocate for any sort of social change because she is literally under duress for just about half of her ASOIAF arc. Would she, if she were in the position to do so? We have yet to see. Of course, Sansa is not a radical. But loving herself in a political landscape with so much hatred against her brand of femininity and against her family is a radical act. Maintaining courtesy while undergoing such an internal change of worldview as Sansa does throughout ACOK and ASOS is radical. Not recognizing the agency that Sansa exercises, so parallel to women of ALL ethnicities and social classes who historically did not have the social power or resources to act like Daenerys does in ACOK and ASOS (ie survivors of partner abuse, CSA, trafficking, kidnapping, child marriage, rape, etc, whose agency is so often downcast and yet in many cases similar to what Sansa undergoes), is dismissive of so many women. Thus, she is not meant to represent white feminism (because she is in almost no way an advocate for wide-scale social change), but she is meant to subvert expectations about femininity in that she survives in King’s Landing for so long and she manages to still love herself and not become an abuser.

Moving on to Daenerys’s (white, cis, wealthy) femininity and social agenda: I am very uncomfortable with the argument that Daenerys is a new or somehow more subversive representation of white femininity than Sansa. Over the past decade, and even further back in time, white women in our media have been central to the radical movements in mainstream fiction, often erasing women of color in the process either through whitewashing or outliving the tragic ending of their best friend--who is, interestingly, almost always a woman of color. We’ve seen Wonder Woman, Katniss Everdeen, Tris Prior, Dolores Abernathy, General Leia, Senator Padme, Jyn Erso, Rey, June from the Handmaid’s Tale, hell, even Merida from Brave take precedence over women of color in their fight against the Capitol, the Empire, Gilead, the institution of marriage, etc. Many women tired of the “complacent” and more traditionally feminine role that Sansa plays in ASOIAF years if not decades ago, but white women alone have multiple layers to their representation in all the aforementioned socially active characters. White women already have both avatars of social change and avatars of soft and kind idealization, and the most culturally iconic figures of white feminism in the past decade have fallen into the former category. Women of color have much more often been placed in the angry street-smart position, even if some of that kindness and beauty is meant to shine through. Daenerys, as a white woman, is allowed to fluctuate between both the fierce and the beautiful. Her beauty is known throughout Essos (and probably some parts of Westeros), as evidenced through Tyrion’s ADWD chapters as well as through the many characters in Daenerys’s POV who remark upon her beauty. She is allowed to take action and forefront that change in a way that women of color--in the society she sets out to change--are not. She is regarded as a visionary, and she is centered as the radical agent in a story about the liberation of people of color. This, to me, is more representative of white feminism than anything else in the ASOIAF novels.

I believe Daenerys, if familiar with the concept of feminism as we understand it, would identify as a feminist. In the sense that she seeks to change the structure of society, to a certain extent it is fair to call her a radical feminist. However, true radical action does not exist without solidarity, and that is what Daenerys lacks. She fails to understand why Mirri Maz Duur did not want her help at the end of AGOT. She fails to completely understand the Meereenese; she tries to change their cultural practices; and she compares them to animals. She only regularly confers with Meereenese nobles out of social obligation. She freed the slaves in Yunkai and Astapor only to leave their economic and social infrastructure in ruins so bad that freedpeople are either begging to go back to their slavers or pseudo-slave/master laws are being formed in place of the previous law. She infantilizes the freedpeople in a way that is remarkably similar to how real-life white colonists regarded indigenous peoples in the lands they conquered--the Ghiscari call Daenerys “Mother,” and she refers to herself as their mother. The freeing of Slaver’s Bay is only told from Westerosi points of view. Daenerys’s whiteness (or otherness, if you want to argue that whiteness does not exist in ASOIAF, though I would highly disagree with that) is very purposefully and irrevocably entwined in her brand of activism.

So I am hesitant to cast off only one of these two characters as a white feminist or the representation of white femininity because that is reflective of a narrow view of white femininity in my opinion. In ASOIAF alone, white women and their femininity are represented with so much flexibility. Their desires, body types and appearances, social station, attitude toward misogyny and other women, attitude toward ruling, cultural and religious backgrounds, and more are explored in depth. To uphold only one as a white feminist or as a paragon of white femininity--which I’ve seen both white Sansa fans and white Daenerys fans do in order to disfavor one or the other--is simply inaccurate.

#sansa stark #asoiaf #anti daenerys #ngl i've been sitting on this post for a bit

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fortunatelylori · 5 years

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A lot of people thought Arya was acting OOC in s7. To me it was more of the same. They've always used Arya to force sides between her and Sansa. And it's very black and white. Arya always sees the worst in Sansa. Or what she thinks is the worst. It just looks worse when they are basically adults and she's acting like a petulant child. My hope is that they really become sisters and see the value in each other. Do you see this happening in S8?

To follow up on my ask. Arya also still holds on to some of her earlier childhood perceptions- about Jon (he can do no wrong) about Sansa (she is all about herself) and according to the clip about Dragons (in awe about stories she’s heard). Do you see this having a role in her arc in s8? A lot of her “unreliable” POV set the tone for these characters and the GAs perception. Jon’s a hero. Sansa’s a useless female. And Dany’s her destined bff because she loves dragons and is an atypical female.

Hey, nonnie!

You pose a series of very interesting but quite hard to answer questions. I say it’s hard to answer because firstly we need to take into account the differences between book Arya and show Arya, as well as the Ds inability to write positive female relationships. On top of that, there’s also the trauma that both Sansa and Arya have experienced, the issues they had as children, their very different personalities and ultimately what their story arcs are, or rather what we can theorize their endgame arcs will be.

So the subject of Arya and Sansa’s relationship becomes hard to tackle. Particularly since we tend to pick sides, independent of where in the fandom we are placed. Arya stans will always take Arya’s side in everything, even when Arya behaves in truly terrifying ways (like threatening to cut off her sister’s face) and Sansa and Jonsa stans are somewhat reluctant to look at things from Arya’s perspective (while not excusing her behavior) and talk about how Sansa could have potentially handled things better in relation to her sister in season 7 because for one Sansa is always the one that gets the short end of the stick in the fandom when it comes to her conflicts with Arya (despite the fact that most of them are not her fault) and also because, again and I can’t stress this enough, show Arya went as far as to threaten to cut off her face.

I think when it comes to show Arya, she’s learned to see the worst in people, period. Because the Ds were so focused in season 7 to screw with the Starks, we didn’t get to see what the fallout of Arya’s stint with the Faceless Men really was in terms of her state of mind. But that must have left some pretty deep scars because Arya went there in good faith, on the word of Jaqen H'ghar and ended up joining a death cult instead. Also the waif must have really shattered what little trust she had left.

So by the time she reunites with Sansa, Arya is very much not in a good place emotionally. She’s just come from committing mass murder, after all.

Talking about the Winterfell plot in season 7 is difficult because it’s such a cesspool of bad writing and unearned twists and poor character development, that trying to taking it seriously and actually analyze the characters’ decision making process within that context feels almost not worthwhile.

However, I will say that during Sansa and Arya first meeting in the crypts, there are a few things that become clear:

Arya is dissapointed that Jon is not there since he’s the only reason why she decided to come home. However, she isn’t cruel to Sansa, just apprehensive. Sansa for her part is excited to have Arya back home but she’s pretty awkward around her as well because she doesn’t quite know how to behave. However, once the ice is broken so to speak and they hug for the second time, it’s actually a very sweet moment between the two of them. Which is why the rest of the plot pisses me off as much as it does.

In season 7 we get another clue that Sansa does know Arya as well as accept her for who she is, when she goes to the crypts knowing that Arya would be there. This is after talking to Brienne in season 6 and smiling at the thought of Arya not being dressed like a lady. “No, she wouldn’t be,” Sansa says. So it’s actually inaccurate to say that Sansa doesn’t value Arya for who she is.

Unfortunately the same can’t be said of Arya who from the first moment she meets Sansa in the crypts begins to be dismissive of her. She’s slightly incredulous that Jon left Sansa in charge and things only escalate from there.

Both these girls have huge trust issues that impede them from treating each other like family. It becomes even more apparent that the only reason why Jon and Sansa’s reunion went as smoothly as it did was because of Jon’s willingness to welcome Sansa with open arms and no apprehension.

Sansa tries to do the same with Arya but she doesn’t quite manage to go all the way. Arya for her part is slightly emotionally cut-off even in the beginning of season 7, which is why probably people feel she was acting OOC. I’m not sure she was but rather that we are not given the proper context as to what has made Arya even more emotionally distant. I’m going to assume that the Faceless Men and the killing of the Freys had an impact on her state of mind but I would have appreciated the writers actually doing the work to present that as opposed to just filming LF smirking in dark corners every other episode.

Then everything is, of course, derailed by Littlefinger so we never see the slow progression of Sansa and Arya’s relationship. But I will say that in order for them to have a real sibling relationship, two things need to happen in season 8:

Arya needs to let go of her internalized misogyny and treat Sansa with respect. Not more digs at her liking to knit or enjoying pretty dresses. No more assumptions that Sansa took the Lord’s Chamber because she’s always liked “nice things”. I mean, she didn’t even know what the context of that was. She didn’t know that Jon had the Lord’s Chamber prepared for Sansa and that she didn’t take it for herself. She doesn’t know the full extent of Jon and Sansa’s relationship. And she doesn’t know any of those things because she doesn’t ask. She just jumps to conclusions. She needs to actually give Sansa the benefit of the doubt and stop attacking her at the slightest provocation.

For Sansa’s part, she needs to lower her guard and let Arya in more. Be more vulnerable around her. She’s never going to win the stone face, tough as nails competition with Arya. She’s much better at it than Sansa. The only way she can have a relationship with Arya is if she opens up and let’s Arya get to know her better. She also needs to accept that not everyone is going to be as patient or understanding with her as Jon is. I’m not blaming Sansa for her traumas but looking from the outside, it’s actually pretty hard to deal and relate to someone who is actively trying to keep everyone at arms length and Arya simply does not have the kind of personality that can deal with that in the optimum way.

What I’m trying to say is that Arya and Sansa’s relationship is a work in progress. And I do hope that at some point they will end up being the true sisters that they’re supposed to be. They’ve both been through a lot and they need each other. However, for that to happen they would both need to put in the work and, most importantly, the Ds would have to be capable of writing it. While I think the first can be achieved, I’m not that sure the second is since the Ds prioritize everything in this story above female relationships.

Arya also still holds on to some of her earlier childhood perceptions- about Jon (he can do no wrong) about Sansa (she is all about herself)

I can’t really fault Arya for idealizing Jon. He was her closest sibling, her big brother, her protector and number one fan. The thought of Jon kept Arya going through some pretty horrible experiences so I don’t think she will ever care about Sansa the way she cares about Jon. When push comes to shove, she’ll always take Jon’s side over Sansa’s, unless Jon does something truly inexcusable, like let’s say give away Arya’s childhood home to a tyrant with nukes … or something like that … just an example, mind you.

So it’s really on Jon, particularly if Jonsa happens, to try to keep these relationships separate and make sure that Sansa doesn’t feel cornered, so to speak. It’s not really fair to him to have to play referee that but that’s what faux-incest does. It inevitably complicates family relationships. lol

according to the clip about Dragons (in awe about stories she’s heard)

Again, I’m not sure this is quite odd. Dragons ARE fascinating creatures. They’re huge, they fly, they breathe fire. It’s normal to be in awe of them at first so I don’t see anything wrong with Arya being interested in them. That doesn’t mean she’s going to continue being in awe of them once she realizes the damage they can cause.

Dany’s her destined bff because she loves dragons and is an atypical female.

This is a fandom invention made by people that hate Sansa and Jonsa. It has nothing to do with Arya’s storyline. Arya stans simply want Arya to continue to hate Sansa because that validates their own hatred of her and D*ny stans want Arya to become D*ny’s handmaiden because she’s Jon’s favorite sister and, as such, her stamp of approval means Jon is going to continue to be D*ny’s lover. It’s insulting to Arya because she’s more than a shoulder to cry on for D*ny and it’s insulting to Jon because he’s a grown ass man who shouldn’t need his little sister to approve of the woman he wants to be in a relationship with.

But the problem with D*ny’s fandom is that it’s essentially a black hole where every other character is sucked of life and energy in order to feed the “D*ny is a godess who deserves for everyone to worship at her feet” mindset.

As far as Arya’s arc in season 8, I think Maisie really laid it out for people:

Maisie Williams: “There’s this split with Arya between trying to be who she wants to be — getting back to that naiveté and innocence with her family — and her unfinished business.”

Arya will have to grapple with who she has become, her desire for revenge, her list and trying to reconcile that with being back home with her family and trying to get back to her season 1 self. I also suspect the Faceless Men will make a come back in her storyline because that arc is not concluded and cults tend to stalk ex-members through most of their lives. I think she will be pretty involved in the White Walker war but I’m not sure what her story will be post that or how all of the elements in her plot will play out in relationship to the larger aspects of the story.

I feel like I’ve rambled quite a bit in this answer but I hope there’s some value in what I’ve said. :)

Thanks for the ask!

#sansa stark #arya stark #house stark #sansa x arya #anti-daenerys

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maybe-a-little-wicked · 5 years

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GOT season 8 spoiler rant ahead: Why Sansa and Daenerys hating each other is dumb.

Forewarning: This is long.

We all know the show done did Dany dirty. It’s probably the thing most of have hated about season 8 the most. Even people who don’t like Dany have disagreed with how her storyline has unfolded, and some even found themselves rooting for her when they didn’t like her earlier on.

But you wanna know what else REALLY burns me?

The relationship between Sansa and Daenerys.

I think most people can agree when I say that the two characters who have undoubtedly suffered the most on Game of thrones would be Sansa and Daenerys. Similarly, they are also perhaps the characters who have overcome the most odds and managed to come out on top despite the horrors they suffered.

In a lot of ways, their stories parallel.

Both of them were horrifically raped, sexually, physically, emotionally, and mentally abused by terrible men. Both of them were ‘sold’ for the benefits of a man. They were both beaten, humiliated, and forced to overcome atrocities. Both have been held captive. Both have been manipulated.

Both have committed terrible acts themselves.

Sansa stans can say what they want; letting someone be devoured by dogs and smiling about it is just about on the same level of burning a witch lady alive because she killed your husband and unborn child.

These two characters have suffered the same crimes committed against them, and yet they don’t get along. Sansa immediately hated Daenerys, and it doesn’t really make sense.

I mean, sure, Sansa is cautious. That makes sense. She’s also pissed at Jon for not listening to her and bending the knee to a foreign ruler. She also probably can’t help but worry about Daenerys being another Cersei, but Sansa is not the type of person to act so blatantly rude to someone with more power than her.

She learned the game, didn’t she? Even if she didn’t like Daenerys in the beginning, she would’ve hidden it a lot better than she did.

Then, Daenerys extends an olive branch. And for a moment, it seems like the two might start to get along. That ends when Sansa brings up the North. Not entirely out of character; Sansa cares about the North, she protects it. But again, Sansa has learned diplomacy.

Also, I don’t really agree with Daenerys’ reaction either. Yeah, Daenerys has a temper, it’s true. I don’t think anyone, even Daenerys stans, would disagree with that. She’s also been known to have trouble with people who question her authority, which I would personally say is fair, given how she started out. But Daenerys has also been shown to have a softer side, especially with women and people who had experienced similar suffering to her own. It’s clear from what she said later on ‘She’s changed’ and ‘not after what they did to her,’ that Daenerys knows, to some extent, the terrible things that happened to Sana.

Yes, Daenerys doesn’t want her claim to the throne contested, but she also has been shown to show a lot more understanding and compassion to people like Sansa. Why didn’t Daenerys try to speak to Sansa about who Daenerys wanted to be as a Queen? Explained to her that ‘I know you’ve experienced terrible things. I have too. That’s why I want to be Queen; I want the world to be better.’

Furthermore, this idea of Sansa judging Daenerys by her parents doesn’t exactly make much sense? Sansa has never before shown an inclination towards such behavior, and after all of the people she met and experienced, she learned that sometimes the monsters can actually be good, just as the ‘good’ can actually be monsters. I mean, look at Sandor. Sansa obviously never held a grudge, and was even grateful that he tried to help her.

I think the biggest issue was the itty bitty lie Jon told in the beginning; he said to his people that in order to get help from Daenerys, he had to bend the knee, but Daenerys had ALREADY pledged her army and dragons to the Northern cause after she saw the Night King. Furthermore, I think it comes down to that part about being mad at Jon. As we saw in Season 7, Sansa was getting more and more frustrated with Jon not listening to her and ignoring her advice. My first thought was perhaps Sansa was more mad at Jon than Daenerys, but was taking her anger out on Daenerys, but they didn’t take this route even though it made more sense.

But let’s fast forward a bit. Daenerys SAVED Winterfell.

There’s a lot of debate about this on the internet I’ve noticed, but let me be clear, because it really is very simple: Winterfell and the North would not have survived without Daenerys’ army and dragons.

Regardless of your arguments, that is the truth.

Whether or not you think Daenerys had an obligation to the North or not, or whatever else, Daenerys didn’t have to go North. I’m not talking about on a moral level or anything, or what a Queen Claimant should or shouldn’t do. I’m saying that Daenerys as a character, regardless of her claimant or not, could’ve just said “well that doesn’t look like a fun battle, I hope you guys enjoy, I’m gonna go ahead and take King’s Landing and prepare it for the Night King. It’s much better fortified anyways.”

But she didn’t. Why? Because contrary to what people like to claim, Daenerys does actually care about her people and her kingdoms, and she doesn’t like to see people suffer.

Sansa also is not an idiot, as we’ve all seen time and time again. She would, on some level, at least recognize the truth of this.

And so we get to the battle, and Arya kills the Night King, yes, but Daenerys and her armies and dragons were the tipping point for the battle. Arya never would’ve gotten to the Night king, perhaps not even survived long enough, to kill him if it weren’t for the fire power and more soldiers.

Daenerys may not have killed the Night King, and she may have been in a pretty tricky situation near the end there, but let’s be clear: there wouldn’t have been a battle if she hadn’t been there. It would have been a massacre.

And again, Sansa, being the smart and intelligent person she is, would recognize this.

You would think after everything, she would’ve at least warmed to Daenerys a little, considering she saved the land and people she loves and cares for so much.

But no, Sansa continues to hate her. Why? What point does it serve her or anyone else?

The point is, it doesn’t make sense. These are two women who have so much in common and who were allies in a war, and yet, they’re frosty and cold to each other. (Sansa more than Daenerys)

It’s the fucking narrative. D&D once again decided to ignore characterization or logic for their narrative, and I’m not okay with it.

And neither should you.

Also, both Sansa stans and Daenerys stans need to chill. (From what I’ve seen, maybe Sansa stans more, but I haven’t really seen the full extent of Daenerys stans hate on Sansa stans.) These are two characters who are extremely similar, and it’s ridiculous that the show pitted them against each other like this, and you shouldn’t give into D&D’s ridiculous narrative and pit two strong, resilient, trauma survivors against each other.

Thank you for coming to my tedtalk.

#gameofthrones #gameofthronesspoilers #dany stans #sansa stans #daenerystargaryen #sansastark #I'mnotoverit #got #gotseason8 #gotspoilers #stoppittingtraumasurvivorsagainsteachother #feminism #feministdealwithit #sexism #damnitd&d #longasspost

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jonsafan-blog · 5 years

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The Survivors of Past Wars: Part 1

I decided to explore the different stories of all the major characters that have made it to the end of the second episode of the last season. That way, we can better understand and appreciate the narrative and consider what their futures might be.

Beric Dondarrion

The Lord of Blackhaven, a vassal to the Baratheons of Storm’s End. Also a knight, he joined numerous military campaigns before the show and participated in tourneys. He was eager to enact justice against the Mountain for his crimes when asked to be Ned in Season 1, but he ultimately lost his life in the process.

Thoros of Myr revived him through the Lord of Light, but this ritual was not one which had ever been successful before. He converted to this new religion because of his experience and then led the Brotherhood of Banners to deal guerilla justice against those who pillaged the Riverlands, but died many times. He loses a bit of himself each time, and the brutality and loose morality of the group did not go unnoted by those who encountered them.

Beric is an honorable man who has been broken by resurrection. As Thoros of Myr can no longer revive him, his next death is to be his final one. In all likelihood, he was revived by the Lord of Light because of his Ned-like background and bravery. His loss of self allows him to act in ways no normal human being could.

It’s difficult to say what the extent of his purpose is in the war, though it does not appear incidental that he joined the cause to fight the undead. Perhaps since he had already died himself he cannot turn into a wight, giving him an unexpected advantage against the Night King.

This advantage is shared only by Jon Snow, who is foreshadowed as a possible slayer of the Night King. Beric may have served to promote the cause of the war and recruit, providing a vision of what the Lord of Light can do against the Great Other.

Part of that vision is helping the true hero of the story, Jon Snow, defeat the greatest evil of them all.

Unfortunately, this may require Beric to die so that Jon will understand the Night King cannot bring him back from the dead, giving him an advantage in a battle. Beric’s death is likely in the next episode in the Battle of Winterfell. His death may be the reason the allies are able to gain an advantage against the Night King because of Beric’s condition, forcing the Night King to retreat.

Beric is the light in the darkness. The hope for the end of the war.

Yara Greyjoy

The only daughter of Balon Greyjoy, Yara was the presumed heir following the defeat of her people in a doomed rebellion. Her childhood was an unhappy one because of her hard father, but hard times make strong men - and in this case, a strong woman.

Despite Balon’s failings, he raised perhaps the best Ironborn in a generation, and the only Ironborn leader capable of bridging the divide between her culture and the rest of Westeros. Yet she hopes to do this not at the expense of her own people’s heritage, or in despite it, but because of it.

That’s a tall order because of the reaving nature of her people, and it will be a difficult trait to reconcile with her hope for a brighter future when it is clear this may be what is holding the Ironborn back.

That’s not to say she is an entirely moral individual in the eyes of the audiences, but she has shown a lot of pragmatism and love which seems bereft in her difficult culture. She risked her own future to save her brother, and while she ultimately failed, this may have helped Theon later on to rescue himself and Sansa Stark.

Although her uncle Euron would later steal the Iron Islands from her, she was able to take the best ships and secure an ally in Daenerys Targaryen. Because of this bold move, she was able to secure the nominal sovereignty of the Ironborn even without a marriage alliance or the promise of one through her heirs.

This will likely have an influence on the Iron Throne in the future: The Seven Kingdoms is an Empire of many nation-states, but that is forgotten under the guise of a single King or Queen historically.

But it’s not just Yara’s actions alone which signal a possible change in Westerosi government: the Ironborn, as hated as they are, have a system of government which Tyrion Lannister noted as being admirable. Any captain can put his (or her) name forward to be elected a lifetime appointment as the King of their people.

Yara lost her chance at the crown at the Kingsmoot, but her loss was what caused her to journey east and may have proven an inspiration as an answer to Daenerys’s heir problem.

Though beloved by many Ironborn because of her initially bright future and good decisions, Yara’s story is one primarily marked by failure. Her father’s inability to think pragmatically caused the Ironborn to lose two wars and any advantage they would have had at this point in the story. She willingly went along with his poor decision making out of loyalty and perhaps even love for the man who raised her.

Balon Greyjoy’s lack of strategy and callous nature led to the loss of Theon Greyjoy to Ramsay Bolton. Yara tried to save Ramsay, but was not effectively supported by her father and did not have the men to adequately attack the Dreadfort due to their losses in war.

Her loss at the Kingsmoot is likely due to her father as well, because Euron used the discord her father had caused from his failures to take the crown.

Euron had similar ideals as Yara in bringing the Ironborn to glory, so it is easy to imagine the same actions he took to attack her fleet is likely what she herself would have done, giving her an advantage in the war. She was taken hostage by Euron.

However, Yara’s brother Theon did save Yara from their uncle, proving that Yara’s good decisions in the past, and her love for her brother, might result in her survival in the long-term.

As she heads to the Iron Islands to take them back in Daenerys’s name, it’s easy to see that most of Yara’s decisions were good ones, but she was cursed by the poor leadership of her father. Whether or not Balon’s legacy haunts her rule is still a concern, but it’s not unreasonable to assume that Yara will survive until the end of the series.

She represents a positive future for her people, and her role in the wars of Westeros may prove to inspire the Iron Throne in a way never before considered. Her loyalty and love, both for her people and her allies, can only be described as heroic.

That’s a powerful legacy for a ship captain in a feudal society.

Podrick Payne

A distant cousin to the Payne family of the Westerlands, Podrick is learning to be a squire under the honorable Brienne of Tarth. He is a good lad despite his questionable connections and has been fortunate to serve and study with characters while they were at their best, such as Tyrion and Brienne.

Though initially bumbling and at times a little too eager, his earnest nature endeared him to those who were close and allowed him to grow under their tutelage.

He has a bright future and a lot to learn, though there is something almost doomed about his path which suggests he won’t survive the war even though he may not deserve death.

Perhaps that is the tragedy of the war - good people die, and Podrick is likely to be one of him.

Despite his desire to grow strong and do good, his bravery does not always match his skill. This means he may go headlong into a dangerous situation and sacrifice himself for the sake of another person - perhaps someone dear to him.

Going into the Battle of Winterfell, it is easy to believe that he may sacrifice himself for Brienne or one of their allies. He would do this without hesitation, but I don’t think his death would just be a mark of heroism, but also a gift to the allies in helping make the future possible.

He is just a minor lad from a minor noble family. He may think his future is to be a knight, though Podrick may have nothing else to learn or live for in the narrative, because Podrick is a person who makes life worth living, and that means the best thing he can do is die so someone else may live.

That’s why it seems fitting for him to die for Brienne. Though his mentor is strong, she desires nothing more to serve, even though she has a father waiting for her return and an entire island who will one day need her leadership.

Podrick’s sacrifice may inspire Brienne to return to her family and continue the Tarth line. His legacy is the loyalty and love of life he inspires in others.

#game of thrones #a song of ice and fire #podrick payne #beric dondarrion #yara greyjoy

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stardyng · 6 years

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salty ask list- asoiaf 1-15

1. What OTPs in your fandom(s) do you just not get?*

Jon x Ygritte (ASOIAF): I think that finds this relationship rather uninteresting in the books. I felt like the show improved it, but in the books, I couldn’t enjoy it that much due to how much Ygritte would say ‘’You know nothing Jon Snow’’, and how she blackmailed him into sex. I don’t hate it, I just don’t care for it.

Jon x Daenerys (GOT): Before watching the 7th season, I was perfectly open to the idea of a romance between these two characters, but in the show itself, it was a whole ass mess. It was barely developed, and the show-writers needed other characters to point out that they were into each other for me and a lot of other viewers to get that it was supposed to be something romantic because of how half-assed every one of their supposedly romantic interactions were. In the books, I do think that it would be executed much better than it was in the show. The pairing itself doesn’t bother me though, just it’s execution.

Tormund x Brienne (GOT): I do understand the appeal in this relationship, especially in terms of the humor related to it, but I just can’t stand behind it, and it’s not just because I’m a rather fervent Braime shipper. I just find it a bit uncomfortable how he constantly tries to flirt with her when she shows clear signs that she isn’t the least interested in him.

2. Are there any popular fandom OTPs you only BroTP?*

Gendry x Arya (ASOIAF/GOT): In my opinion, they act like siblings with each other, but ask any other GOT/ASOIAF fans, and they are soulmates. I’ll be fine if it happens, but I never got anything besides platonic vibes from them.

3. Have you ever unfollowed someone over a fandom opinion?

Jonerys (GOT): I’m fine with Jonerys and Daenerys stans appearing in my dash, but the person I was following posted so much Jonerys that it literally flooded by dashboard. It was just too much content for a ship I really don’t care for.

4. Do you have a NoTP in your fandom? Are they a popular OTP?*

Sandor x Sansa (ASOIAF/GOT): He’s almost twice her age, he constantly belittles and torments her, he is sexually attracted to her despite her being an 11-12 year old, he threatens to kill her numerous times, he gets in her space often and even grabs her multiple time without her consent. I don’t really enjoy their interactions because in most of them, he has to degrade her, and I’m rather tired of it.

Petyr x Sansa (ASOIAF/GOT): I love their interactions together (especially these where he isn’t flirting with her) because you can tell that he respects her opinion and her abililities/intelligence, and that he really is making her aware of multiple of her skills, however, it’s still awful especially if we’re talking romantically. He’s as old as her mother, he kisses her without her consent often, and just everything he does in regards to her is absolutely creepy. Just the fact that he started the war that led to half of her family members dying should be enough for there to be not be people rallying for this relationship.

Ramsey x Sansa (GOT): I don’t need to say anything but re-watch season 5 if you ship this.

Ramsey x Theon (ASOIAF): Re-watch season 3-5 and read Reek ADWD chapters you twisted fuckers.

Drogo x Daenerys (ASOIAF/GOT): Let’s start this by saying that Drogo raped Daenerys in both the book and show. In the show, it was in their first night together whereas in the books, she was droven to tears because of his constant assault of her body. I really don’t like how the writers turned that into some kind of romantic relationship that we are supposed to root for. It’s really not. Drogo himself is terrible. He pillages villages, which leads to hundreds of men and children being killed and women being raped and enslaved. I really don’t understand how people could be cheering at something like this or why the writers thought it was a good idea to present it in a positive manner.

Jorah x Daenerys (ASOIAF/GOT): He’s another grown adult romantically and sexually attracted to a child. People feel bad for him because he’s friendzoned but due they realize that this dude fell in love with her when she was a child. And that’s not even addressing the fact that he is an ex-slaver and just such as awfully boring character.

Rhaegar x Lyanna (ASOIAF/GOT): Rhaegar is a piece of shit who had a wife that he just left to go run away with a 16 year old girl just because he cared about some prophecy. How low can you get? And don’t think Lyanna is any less terrible when she knew what she was doing as well. It doesn’t help that them running away together was inconsiderate to literally everyone in their lives, and that happening was the first step to a rather massive war. How many people had to die because of their selfishness? And some people just blindly ship it too. Elia Martell deserved better.

5. Has fandom ever ruined a pairing for you?*

Tyrion x Sansa (ASOIAF/GOT): I actually liked the idea of Tyrion and Sansa being together after watching the show for the first time. The only thing I didn’t like about it was the age difference, which I now see as enough of a problem. However, I rather liked that pairing, and then I went online excited to see people talk about it, and found out that the reason a lot of people want them together was to punish Sansa for wanting to be someone she finds attractive and apparently not appreciating Tyrion enough. All of that is bullshit especially when Tyrion expects to be with someone conventionally attractive as well and how he molested her and is bitter because she didn’t want to have sex with him. He doens’t deserve an award for not raping her. The books in general definitely made sure that I became anti sanryion due to how awful he could be to her sometimes.

6. Has fandom ever made you enjoy a pairing you previously hated?*

Jon x Sansa (ASOIAF/GOT): I didn’t really hate the idea of JonSa so much as it was apprehensive about it due to the fact that it is incest. I don’t exactly ship it but I am open to the idea of them happening because of the Jonsas I came across. It’s the only major Sansa pairing that doesn’t force Sansa in a relationship with an adult man who treated her horribly. I don’t know how to explain it but the existence of JonSa led to a wave of new Sansa fans who not only defend her character and appreciate parts of her that a lot of the fandom didn’t, but just generally treats her character with respect. It also helps that they have fantastic meta, and often discuss theories that I am fond of like DarkDany (and to a lesser extent, Political!Jon)

7. Is there anything you used to like but can’t stand now?*

Arya Stark (GOT): I really enjoyed Arya’s character in the first few season of the show when I was first watching. Even after I went through her Braavos storyline, she was in my five favourite game of thrones characters. However that changed with season 7. I didn’t like how she was obsessed with revenge to the point of cooking people into pies, her constant shaming of Sansa for liking nice things, how she immediately wanted to kill the lords of the north just because they didn’t like their new leader, how she threatened to kill Sansa and how hypocritical she was being about Sansa being the hostage of the Lannisters when she served as cupholder to Tywin. I also didn’t like the way the actress was portraying her character this season, it seemed really off. I hope for a better season 8 for her, but I doubt I’ll forgive her for all that she said and did this season. Book Arya is such a better character, especially because they let her be a much more emotionally vulnerable and human. If you want an elaboration of this, I made a post about it.

Tyrion Lannister (ASOIAF): I don’t exactly hate Tyrion, but the books made my opinion of his character change. Because of them, I started to realize that ShowTyrion stopped having a character arc after season 4, and only exists as pure comic relief at this point, whereas in the books, I really don’t enjoy the way he mistreats the women in his life, and a lot of the other horrible stuff he is doing. As a character, I’m rather fond of him because his arc is rather brilliantly written, but he’s a really awful person and not a lot of fans are willing to admit it.

8. Have you received anon hate? What about?*

Daenerys Targaryen (GOT): It’s not a surprise that Daenerys fans wouldn’t enjoy my constant support of the DarkDany theory, which has to be my favorite theory in this series. I just love all of the things it implies thematically and narratively. It makes Dany much more of a better character, and really makes it evident that all the horrible things she did in the past few season are considered to be bad things by the narrative, and existed to build her up to when she went to the point of no return and aren’t just actions we were supposed to hail her for.

Arya Stark (GOT): My negative opinion on Arya in Season 7 had led to a few anons who needed to remind me that Sansa betrayed the Stark family, that she isn’t in the key 5, that Arya has more chapters than her among other petty things.

Sandor x Sansa (ASOIAF): Some people don’t like when I point out that this ship is problematic on so many levels.

9. Most disliked character(s)? Why?

Lyanna Mormont (GOT): I actually made a post explaining why I don’t like her.

Maester Pycelle (GOT): I know he does a lot of horrible stuff but I just hate him for the crime of talking so damn slowly.

Victorian Greyjoy (ASOIAF): I don’t usually dislike characters the narrative tells me to dislike, but I can’t stand this dude. He killed his wife because his brother raped her. He murdered tons of prostitutes, manages to find new and innovative ways to be idiotic, and is just incredibly misogynistic.

10. Most disliked arc? Why?

Samwell Tarly (ASOIAF): I don’t really enjoy the wall storyline in the first place, and I’m even less so interested in Sam’s character and his development. I just don’t find anything interesting in his character or his arc. Everyone else has some appeal to their arc, but he just doesn’t have anything going for him in my opinion.

Arya Stark (ACOK): I enjoy a lot of Arya chapters in other books, but I have never read anything as tedious and boring as her 10 chapters in A Clash of Kings. That’s just way too many chapters for an arc where nothing of interest happens. Her entire supporting cast is not the least bit interesting unlike literally every other POV character. I understand the themes the author was diving into, but they were done in a much more poignant manner with Brienne in AFFC. Her character was good in that book, but I just didn’t myself entertained by what I was reading.

Jon Snow (ACOK/ASOS): Jon’s story in A Dance With Dragons remains to be one of my favorite parts of the entire story, but I didn’t expect it to be because of how much I didn’t enjoy the happenings at The Wall in the books preceding it. I just don’t find him wandering beyond the wall that interesting, nor do I find his whole infiltrating in Mance Rayder’s camp shenanigan entertaining. I don’t care that much about the white walkers, or the wildlings of the night’s watch in genera. I was honestly surprised at how GRRM was able to take all of these things that I didn’t like and make a fantastic story arc that was revolved around it in ADWD.

11. Is there an unpopular character you like that the fandom doesn’t? Why?

Harrold Hardying (ASOIAF): I absolutely adore Harry The Heir and his dynamic with Sansa, but everyone else seems to use him as a prop in their fanfiction for their favorite ship. I just enjoy seeing this confident jerk be thrown off guard by Sansa, and constantly left embarassed and bewildered by her. He laughs at her jokes, he calls her beautiful without being creepy about it, he compliments her intelligence, like yeah he blundered in the beginning, but he shown more respect to Sansa in that one scene then Tyrion/Sandor even did in all of their interactions combined.

Melisandre Of Asshai (ASOIAF/GOT): It’s hard to find people who are a fan of her character in the books and even more so in the show. Her entire character and how she was built up to be the way she is (and why she does everything she does) is so fascinating but people are quick to dismiss her which is a bit sad to me.

12. Is there an unpopular arc that you like that the fandom doesn’t? Why?

Daenerys Targaryen (ADWD): I have never hid the fact that I love Daenery and her arc in the books, but it wasn’t until ADWD that I came to that realization. I always love these storylines where someone in power is left to make decisions where there are no clear right and wrong and it’s their upbringing and morality that affect how they make their decision, and we get to see how their own principles start affecting an entire population, and how that population reacts to these changes. Daenerys ADWD does just that and rather perfectly. Not only that but it really explores every side of her character, and we see try desperately to find somewhere where she can belong in her efforts of planting trees and making a home, but with all that happens through out the book, she eventually ends up abandoning that ideal and the reasons why she wanted to stay, be a child, and live her life in Essos, in order to embrace her identity as a Targaryen and her other wish which is it to bring fire and blood to Westoros.

Brienne Of Tarth (AFFC): Can I just say what a fantastic arc this is? There are definitely a lot of people who would agree with me but there are even more who hate AFFC, and a major part of it is Brienne’s chapters in that book. I found them extremely entertaining. We get to understand her character and her backstory through out the chapters, GRRM continues to dive in the theme of what is a ‘’true knight’’, we get to see how this kind of society especially in times of war affect the peasants, and a variety of fascinating and interesting characters from the Riverlands. I know I only dived into the surface of why it is so good, but with moments like ‘’No chance and no choice.’’ and the broken men monologue, I don’t think I need to justify it’s greatness when it already does it well enough itself.

Theon Greyjoy (ACOK): Everyone and their mother appreciates Theon’s ADWD arc and for good reason, but far less tend to enjoy his character or his arc in this book which make sense, but I really like it. It’s his whole internal fight about his identity and where he belongs and his allegiances that I find really fascinating. We get his wish to be a Greyjoy and a Stark at the same time pull him apart and drive him into desperation. I think it’s one of the better examples in the series where a character internal conflict impacted the story in such a grand manner.

Sansa Stark (AGOT): There are things that are universally hated by a fandom, and Sansa chapters in AGOT are one of them. Read a review of the first book, a thread about that book or even ask people who read the books why they don’t like Sansa, and it will become evident that not many people seem to enjoy this part of her journey. Personally, I completely disagree. Not only do I enjoy her character and that book, but I love so much about these chapters. It’s interesting that GRRM used Sansa’s arc in that book as a way to criticize how the medieval society is romanticized, how her upbringings didn’t prepare her for the things she faces in this book, how we see her naivety and innocence slowly crack in this book, how she has a constant internal struggle about how she views life and people and her allegiances, how there’s different layers you can peel off from this part of her story, and how it ends with one of my favorite lines in the story being ‘’Sansa was a good girl and always remembered her courtesies.’’, and while she had made many mistakes because of the way that she was brought up, she uses parts of what she learnt in the past(her courtesies) to survive in the books following this one.

13. Unpopular opinion about XXX character?

Jon Snow (GOT): I actually adore Jon in the books, whereas in the show, while he doesn’t offend me, I honestly find him a bit boring. For me, he’s like the generic adult high fantasy male protagonist, and doesn’t set himself apart like everyone else. In a story where we see characters who either deconstruct these typical tropes from these stories, challenge them or even come from tropes that aren’t quite explored in them, he just exists as a trope I have seen a thousand other times. They removed everything that made him an actually compelling and complex characters in my opinion.

14. Unpopular opinion about your fandom?

Jonsa Fans: I feel like people are very quick to degrade that part of the fandom and whatever theory they hold which is I find to be a bother since there’s so many amazing theories and metas that were created by Jonsa’s that people don’t want to take seriously because it comes from them. Plus, Jonsa’s go in detail about why they believe that XXX thing will happen, and I feel like they in general but also their opinions should be given the respect they deserve.

Rhaegar/Lyanna: They are both terrible people whose action led to so many death yet everyone just casually accepts it and it’s a bit frustrating. Like okay yes he didn’t rape or kidnap her, but that doesn’t erase all the other terrible things that he has done. And yes she is 16 years old, but that’s not an excuse to be that inconsiderate about everyone in your life and pull this kind of bullshit.

15. Unpopular opinion about the manga/show?

A Feast For Crows: While this is the least popular book in the series, it remains to be my favorite. A Feast For Crows is the thematic high point of the series. Every arc in that book is extremely well-written, and develops it’s core characters to an extent not seen in the series before. Cersei’s arc was the best take on ruling from the books in my perspective. Jaime’s character arc is fantastically put out. The themes of “true knights” and “broken men” are probably some of the best developed ones in Brienne’s Arc. Arya’s and Sansa’s training are not only showcase a clear growth but portrays a streamlined clear version of the development in terms of their capabilities. The Iron Islands and Dorne were also stellar, and have very satisfying peaks (Kingsmoot, Princess In The Tower). It’s definitely a slower book, as it gives a much more introspective outlook into the world, it’s themes and it’s characters.

A Game Of Thrones: It’s the best book for none of the POVs (besides Ned for obvious reasons). It’s sets up the story rather nicely, but every other book has story lines that are way more interesting.

Season 3: After Season 5 and 7, this has to be the worst season of the show. Sansa’s storyline basically consists of ‘’OMG SHE LIKES LORAS THAT IS SO FUNNY BECAUSE HE’S GAY’’ and nonsense that D&D seem to love, for the entirety of the season. Theon getting tortured for an entire season was just ridiculous and overdone if I want to be honest. Arya, Tyrion, Jon and Bran barely do anything as well. The story moves at a ridiculously slow pace, and the only memorable storyline is Jaime’s (and The Red Wedding). You could try to fight me on this but it’s true.

#that was so long #but hey #i did it #and i had fun doing this too #hope that y'all enjoy this.#asks

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silkygoldmilkweed · 6 years

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Petyr Baelish vs Sandor Clegane: A Tale of Two Suitors

GRRM will be dead before he finishes the books so we’ll never get a chance to ask him about the construction process once the whole thing is out there, but until he says otherwise, I believe that he created Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Sandor, Ned, Bobby, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Cat and Robb, and then built out many of the other characters as mirrors and foils to them.

Theon is failed Jon.

Joffrey is the anti-Jon.

And I believe with all my heart that Littlefinger is the anti-Sandor.

Name almost any character quality and Sandor has the opposite aspect to Littlefinger. Littlefinger is words. Sandor is deeds. Littlefinger is manipulation and lies. Sandor is brutal honesty. Littlefinger is selfish. Sandor is selfless. Littlefinger is either amoral or immoral or maybe both. Sandor lives by a strict personal code of how men, women and people generally are supposed to behave. Littlefinger is sinuous and simpering and sly like Hiss in Disney’s Robin Hood movie. The Hound is bold and strong and aggressive and all heart.

But both of them want to fuck Sansa Stark.

(My headcanon, BTW, is that Littlefinger’s nickname is really because he has a tiny dick and that it was Brandon “Wild Wolf” Stark that gave him the nickname. Sandor, of course, is prodigiously endowed. LOL.)

I think the show grants Littlefinger’s death scene a few nods to the SanSan subtext in Sansa’s life, and Littlefinger’s failure gives us some insight into where the Hound succeeded, even though it may not have been acknowledged at the time.

“Lady Sansa, I’ve known you since you were a girl. I’ve protected you–”

OK, this is excellent. When was the first time they met? According to Littlefinger circa season four, “The first time I saw you, you were just a child. A girl from the North, come to the capital for the first time. Not a child any longer.” So the first time they ever met was the Tourney of the Hand, and at that time, Sansa was officially a “child” or a “girl.” (Sandor met her just before that, and then won the tourney in question by protecting Loras from Gregor.)

Anyway, LF’s been creeping on Sansa from the get-go (he puts his hand on her at the Tourney and Ned gives him a death glare) but more importantly, beginning as early as season four (MAYBE) but most certainly by season seven, Sansa is no longer a girl but a woman. SophieT is only 21 or something, but in Westerosi terms, Sansa is a twice-married widow of maturity and dignity. The way she dresses she could pass for a middle-aged spinster, but of course her face gives away her youth.

Long story short, the show wants you to know that it’s no longer creepy if Sandor thinks she’s hot, because age difference or no, they’re both adults now and free people, and able to consent to sexual intercourse if they’re both of sound mind and body, etc.

“Protected me? By selling me to the Boltons?”

Littlefinger is first and foremost a flesh peddler. A whoremonger, as Lord Royce calls him. He sells Sansa’s body as readily as he brokers a street prostitute’s blow job work.

Counterpoint: Sandor Clegane doesn’t run around pimping out little girls. Can you even imagine? Quite to the contrary, he spends all his free time running interference between creeps and his Stark girls. Honestly, one of the most striking underanalyzed moments in the histories of the Hound is when he and Arya are with the farmer and his daughter, and the father is doing his prayers to the Seven. “We ask the Maiden to protect Sally’s virtue and keep her from the clutches of depravity,” says farmer dad. It’s at that moment that he interrupts, “Do you have to do all seven of the fuckers?” Now, mostly he’s literally starving and he just wants to get on with it, but I also think there’s an unspoken freaked-out reaction there: There’s no point in praying! The gods aren’t going to keep her from getting raped. They never stop any of that shit. You either can fight it off yourself or she’ll suffer it, same as all the other maidens.

The spectre of sexual assualt looms heavy over Sandor and Sansa’s “relationship,” not least because of the “fuck her bloody” line but also because of the size difference, the age difference, the power difference, his known predilection for violence, and his obvious overwhelming desire for her (not to mention Gregor’s history as a rapist, most famously of Elia Martell). But even though he could take her at any time, and she is quite often in very vulnerable situations with him, he never does anything untoward. (Show canon only, I know the book canon is slightly more salacious and risque, in word if not in deed.) But even though he could have stolen her against her will, and he should have, most likely, he politely asked her if she wanted to be absconded with and when she said no, he walked away.

As he and Omar put it so succinctly, “A man’s got to have a code.” No stealing girls who don’t want to be stolen.

Or as the vows of Westerosi knighthood put it, “In the name of the Maid, I charge you to protect all women.”

Littlefinger grossly exploits women’s bodies. Sandor puts his own body between women and danger. Littlefinger sells. Sandor frees. What a difference.

“If we could speak alone, I could explain everything.”

Littlefinger is a sneak. And a liar. He can’t do anything in the open, because he needs to lurk in the shadows to play his little games. It’s a kick to rewatch once you understand the extent of Littlefinger’s dishonesty, because you can absolutely see Aiden Gillen adjust his performance ever so slightly when LF is lying. It’s outstanding acting, although of course I loathe anything and everything LF-related.

Sandor, meanwhile, is honest to a fault. “A dog will die for you, but never lie to you.”

“Sometimes when I’m trying to understand a person’s motives, I play a little game. What’s the worst reason you have for turning me against my sister? That’s what you do, isn’t it? That’s what you’ve always done. Turn family against family, turn sister against sister. That’s what you did to our mother and Aunt Lysa, and that’s what you tried to do to us.”

If we play this game with Sandor’s motives, I think we come to the conclusion that the worst thing he could want was to have consensual sex with a girl who was too young and too highborn and too fragile and too weak. He didn’t want Winterfell. He didn’t want money. He didn’t want power. He legitimately wanted to help Sansa, and later Arya. (I will insist on my deathbed that the Arya-for-ransom deal was bullshit generally but at best a poorly-thought-out plan to get him an entree to House Stark.)

The other thing is the sister divisions bit. I would add that Sansa and Arya (”different as the sun and moon”) have but a handful of things in common: Winterfell, their parents and siblings, and Sandor Clegane. He’s one of the things that binds Sansa and Arya together, rather than tears them apart. They approach him from different positions but end up in the same place.

Last but hardly least, he is the one single person who ever fought for both Sansa and Arya, who were almost completely abandoned after their father was killed.

They were left alone in the wilderness. Arya had a little of Yoren and Jaquen and Gendry, but she was overwhelmingly scrapping on her own. Sansa had a little of Varys and Olenna and Littlefinger, but again, she was basically out there all by herself, being hunted by lions. The Hound was the only one who fought for them both. He is a tie that binds.

“Sansa, please.”

Ah, the pathetic begging. Show!Sandor never grovels for her attention. On the contrary, he discourages and frightens her on several occasions. He doesn’t need her the way Littlefinger is desperate for Sansa, both sexually and politically. Why? Because Littlefinger is weak and needy, whereas Sandor is strong and needy. Sandor desires Sansa Stark, but he doesn’t debase either of them to get what he wants. If what he wants is not freely given, he can walk away, whereas Littlefinger always crawls closer.

“I’m a slow learner, it’s true. But I do learn.”

Oh, my sweet Sansa. To me this line is so evocative and nostalgic and tragic. If viewed from a pure SanSan perspective, this is Sansa saying that she had to suffer through years of loneliness and torment at the hands of villains to be able to see what a good and rare and precious thing she had once had in Sandor Clegane.

This line pairs beautifully with the other heartbreaker from Sansa to Littlefinger: “Back then I only thought about what I wanted, never about what I had. I was a stupid girl.” She’s had years to think about how her girlish, inexperienced, naive and entitled values prevented her from seeing that her True Knight was standing in front of her the whole time, right behind the beautiful, odious, vicious idiot king.

“Give me a chance to defend myself. I deserve that.”

Ugh. Let’s return to season six to reply to this. “I don’t believe you anymore. I don’t need you anymore. You can’t protect me. You won’t even be able to protect yourself if I tell Brienne to cut you down.”

Sansa sees now that she is much stronger and more powerful than Littlefinger ever was or could hope to be. He is a grubby little pretender and he destroyed her family for his own selfish ends, and he deserves every bit of the justice that he is about to receive.

Basically, my girl has become a woman, and she is free of all the bullshit men who have been using her for years. Tywin is dead. Littlefinger is dead. The Boltons are dead.

She is unbound. She is a woman, and she can choose for herself, and I’m pretty sure what she chooses will be Sandor Clegane.

#sansan #sansan meta #Sansa Stark #Sandor Clegane #petyr baelish #sansan marriage

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trinuviel · 6 years

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Winterfell’s Daughter. On Sansa Stark (part 6)

This is the sixth part of my analysis of Sansa Stark’s character in Game of Thrones. (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5) and it concludes the analysis of Sansa Stark’s season 1 arc. This is where the story takes a turn against the Starks and where Sansa’s life becomes a nightmare.

LIFE IS NOT A SONG

In my last post, I showed how Sansa’s illusions about chivalry, court and love were restored after they had been undermined by the vicious behavior of Joffrey, Cersei and the Mountain. In the very same episode as Joffrey mendaciously woo Sansa with pretty words and a pretty necklace, Ned falls out with Robert over Daenerys Targaryen and decides to break off Sansa’s betrothal to Joffrey and leave King’s Landing (ep06). Unsurprisingly, Sansa doesn’t react well when Ned tells her and Sansa that they’ll return to Winterfell.

Sansa: I can’t go. I’m supposed to marry prince Joffrey. I love him and I’m meant to be his queen and have his babies.

This is where Ned utters this oft-quoted line:

Sansa: I don’t want someone brave, gentle and strong. I want him! He’ll be the greatest king that ever was, a golden lion, and I’ll give him sons with beautiful blonde hair.

Arya: The lion is not his sigil, idiot. He’s a stag, like his father.

Sansa: He is not. He’s nothing like that old drunk king.

Out of the mouth of babes… Sansa unwittingly gives Ned the key to the mystery that his predecessor Jon Arryn was investigating: The true parentage of Cersei Lannister’s children. Sansa sounds like a complete ninny-hammer in this scene. Once again, she’s got her head in the clouds, imagining herself the star of a Westerosi fairytale. I have already mentioned that it is a shame that the show has erased existence of the songs and romances that are part of the cultural fabric of Westeros because this literature informs Sansa’s views on romance and chivalry. This literature therefore serves as a context for her ideals and her behaviour. Let’s have a look at how part of the exchange between Sansa and Ned plays out in the book:

“Father, I only just now remembered, I can’t go away, I’m to marry Prince Joffrey.” She tried to smile bravely for him. “I love him, Father, I truly do, I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, as much as Jonquil loved Ser Florian. I want to be his queen and have his babies. […] We’ll be ever so happy, just like in the songs, you’ll see…” (A Game of Thrones, Sansa III)

Sansa isn’t facing the reality of her relationship with Joffrey but is rather desperately trying to make it fit the shape of the stories she loves so much. However, Sansa doesn’t understand that the songs she loves so much leaves out or stylizes all the hardship and suffering that the characters go through. She thinks that Aemon the Dragonknight defending the virtue of Queen Naerys against slander is terribly romantic – and it is. However, she doesn’t understand is these epic romances that she adores dilute the grief, suffering and horror with pretty words and ear-catching verse. Sansa’s life may become the subject of songs and stories, but not in the way that her younger self imagined. It is a common theme in the books: that romanticism erases the suffering, the blood and the grief of the people and events that are immortalized in stories and songs. Life is not a song, but it can become the subject of songs: “We are all just songs in the end. If we are lucky”. Young Sansa wanted to live in a song – and she just might get her wish, but in the worst way possible.

THE LION’S “MERCY”

As noted above, Sansa’s little outburst about that “old drunk king” leads Ned to discover the truth: that Joffrey is the offspring of Cersei and Jaime Lannister’s incestuous affair. However, his handling of this explosive secret is disastrous. Not only does he inform Cersei that he knows her secret but he does so before getting his daughters safely out of King’s Landing. Thus, when Cersei acts against Ned and slaughters his household, both Sansa and Arya are targeted by the Lannister soldiers. Syrio Forel delays the attackers to facilitate Arya’s escape and Septa Mordane tries to do the same for Sansa though it fails. This unarmed woman stares down a bunch of soldiers with bloody swords, knowing that it most likely means her death and she doesn’t flinch. It is perhaps one of the bravest acts I’ve seen on the show.

Sansa is captured by the Hound and she is now completely alone and isolated in King’s Landing. Ned is in the Black Cells, Arya has escaped and the rest of the Stark household are dead. It is a frightened girl that is summoned before Cersei and the remainder of the Small Council (Varys, Pycelle and Baelish). They pull a good cop, bad cop routine in order to coerce Sansa into writing a letter to Robb Stark at Winterfell, begging him to travel to King’s Landing to bend the knee to Joffrey.

Varys: Your father has proved to be an awful traitor, dear.

Pycelle: King Robert’s body was still warm when Lord Eddard began plotting to steal Joffrey’s rightful throne.

Sansa: He wouldn’t do that! He knows how much I love Joffrey. He wouldn’t. Please, Your Grace, there’s been a mistake. Send for my father. He’ll tell you – the king was his friend.

On the surface, this reads like a very self-absorbed thing to say – and it is, to a certain extent. However, it also shows that Sansa believes that her father would never hurt her intentionally. In her mind, her father would never hurt her – he knows she loves Joffrey – losing Joffrey would hurt her – ergo: Ned would never work against Joffrey because it would hurt her. It is a superficial way to approach this whole situation but it also reveals that she has complete faith in her father’s love for her.

Maester Pycelle: She’s a sweet thing now, Your Grace, but in 10 years who knows what treasons she may hatch?

Sansa to Cersei: No I’m not. I’ll be a good wife to him, you’ll see. I’ll be a queen, just like you (oh, the irony!), I promise. I won’t hatch anything.

Cersei, Varys, Pycelle and Baelish manipulate her skillfully.

Baelish: The girl is innocent, Your Grace. She should be given a chance to prove her loyalty.

Cersei: Little Dove, you must write to Lady Catelyn and your brother. The eldest – what’s his name?

Sansa: Robb.

Cersei: Word of your father’s arrest will reach him soon, no doubt. Best it comes from you. If you would help your father, urge your brother to keep the King’s Peace. Tell him to come to King’s Landing to swear his fealty to King Joffrey.

Sansa: If I could see my father, talk to him…

Cersei: You disappoint me, child. We have told you of your father’s treason. Why would you want to speak to a traitor?

Sansa: I only meant that… What will happen to him?

Cersei: That depends.

Sansa: On… On what?

Cersei: On your brother. And on you.

Sansa is led to believe that Ned’s fate rests on her slender shoulders. She thinks that her father’s life is dependent on her actions, which most likely provides the impetus for the next action she undertakes. Sansa publically pleads for her father – on her knees in front of the Iron Throne.

It is unclear whether she does this of her own accord or whether Cersei and the Small Council are in on it. Regardless, it is a lovely piece of heartfelt theatre and it shows that Sansa quickly has become familiar with the conventions of the royal court as she is exploiting the system of the king petitions publically.

Sansa: All I ask is mercy. I know my lord father must regret what he did. He was King Robert’s friend and he loved him, you all know that he loved him. He never wanted to be Hand, until the King asked him. They must have lied to him, Lord Renly or Lord Stannis or somebody. They must have lied!

Joffrey: He said I wasn’t the king. Why did he say that?

Sansa: He was badly hurt. Maester Pycelle was giving him Milk of the Poppy. He wasn’t himself. Otherwise he never would have said it.

Once again, Sansa demonstrates her complete faith in her father’s innocence and honour. Most likely, she knows nothing about what really happened and tries to come up with her own explanation. She ends her plea with an appropriation of the language of Courtly Love:

Notice how her language changes at this point – it becomes formal, stylized. She is speaking a sentence that could come straight from one of the chivalric romances that she likes so much. Here she appeals to the conventions of Courtly Love whereby the lover should fulfill his lady’s wishes. Joffrey, in turn, knows this language and responds in kind:

Joffrey: Your sweet words have moved me. But your father must confess. He has to confess and say that I’m the king – or there’ll be no mercy for him.

However, where Sansa uses the language of Courtly Love in good faith, Joffrey operates in bad faith. Just as he did in the scene where he gifted her a necklace. To him the language and conventions of Courtly Love are empty words and gestures whereas they are very meaningful to Sansa. She has yet to understand that truth and honour are rare commodities at court. Here deceit and double-speak reigns supreme.

When the time comes, Joffrey’s mercy turns out to be no mercy at all! However, Sansa isn’t the only person who is blindsided when Joffrey calls for Ned’s head. Cersei, Varys and Pycelle’s reactions show that they, too, have been blindsided by Joffrey’s demand.

Sansa breaks down, screaming desperately for them to stop. She has to be restrained by an armed knight before she faints at the sight of her father’s headless body.

Unlike Arya, who is shielded from the sight of her Ned’s death by Yoren, Sansa is forced to watch her father die. This is the moment when the scales finally fall from her eyes. Throughout the season, Sansa has been willfully blind about Joffrey. It isn’t necessarily because she’s stupid but rather because she has constantly been told not to trust her own instincts. She was also purposely mislead by gestures and words designed to appeal to her romanticism. However, her final disillusionment is incredibly brutal and traumatic.

“HE CAN MAKE ME LOOK AT THE HEADS; BUT HE CAN’T MAKE ME SEE THEM”

Joffrey takes Sansa to the battlements of the Red Keep to show her the severed heads of her father and his household.

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I have chosen to title this section with a quote from the book because it encapsulates how Sansa adopts a strategy of passive resistance in the face of the emotional abuse that Joffrey inflicts on her. What does this distinction between “looking” and “seeing” mean? To look means to direct one’s gaze at something (what is being looked at). To see can mean the same thing but it can also imply to understand, recognize or comprehend something. So what does this mean in relation to this scene between Joffrey and Sansa? It could refer to Sansa’s tendency to compartmentalize and supress things that are traumatic to her. Let’s have a look at the passage that follows the quote above:

Sandor Clegane took the head by the hair and turned it. The severed head had been dipped in tar to preserve it longer. Sansa looked at it calmly, not seeing it at all. It did not really look like Lord Eddard, she thought; it did not even look real. “How long do I have to look?” Joffrey seemed disappointed. – A Game of Thrones, Sansa VI

The way that Sansa disassociate “looking” from “seeing” can be read as both a coping mechanism and a form of passive resistance. The whole situation is incredibly traumatic for her – her father was murdered before her eyes and she is alone among people she cannot trust. On top of that, she has to contend with Joffrey’s vicious nature. He only brought her to the battlement to enjoy her anguish. Sansa refuses him that pleasure by not giving any outward reaction.

Sophie Turner conveys Sansa’s passive resistance perfectly through a stoic, emotionless countenance and an inflectionless, almost “dead”, quality to her voice. There’s even a subtle defiance in the manner in which she raises her head to look – at Ned’s head, at Joffrey. At some level, Joffrey knows that she’s resisting but he can’t put a finger on it and thus he’s rendered impotent. He doesn’t get the reaction from her that he wants. He wants her tears and she refuses to give them to him.

When she refuses to show her anguish, Joffrey tries another tactic: threats against her brother Robb.

However, this backfires as well when Sansa replies:

Then she coldly stares him down, daring him to challenge her. Joffrey is flustered, he even takes a step back! Then, as the coward he is, he orders Ser Meryn to strike Sansa. A grown man, wearing gauntlets, slaps her around and she doesn’t make a sound!

Immediately after this, the camera work shows the audience that Sansa ponders the ultimate act of resistance: killing Joffrey by pushing him off the battlements. She even starts walking towards him. The only reason Joffrey doesn’t die that day is because the Hound intervenes with the pretext of wiping the blood off her face. Sansa herself is completely prepared to die with him, as the book says: “All it would take was a shove, she told herself. […] It wouldn’t even matter if she went over with him. It wouldn’t matter at all.”

The scene ends with Sansa standing on the battlements, alone. She lifts her gaze one last time, looking up at her father’s head, whilst she fights to hold back her tears. This gaze, I’d argue, is different than the “look, don’t see” approach she adopted earlier. With this final look, she is committing the crime of her father’s murder to memory. She’s reminding herself never to be deceived by Joffrey and the Lannisters again. This time, she won’t close her eyes to the truth.

Sansa is often criticized for being a passive character in King’s Landing. Many think her weak because she doesn’t resist violently. However, it is mistake to confuse helplessness with weakness! About his sister Lyanna, Eddard said: “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath.” The same can be said of Sansa. Strength and resistance come in many forms. Sansa is not a violent person, she is not physically strong and she has no weapons training. It is ridiculous to expect her to fight off a bunch of armored soldiers. It would simply get her killed. Sansa’s resistance is more subtle and it is psychological rather than physical. The scene with Joffrey on the battlements shows how Sansa employs two different forms of resistance to Joffrey’s cruelty:

Active, verbal resistance where she talks back. That leads to a beating at the hands of the King’s Guard.

Passive resistance where she outwardly complies but refuses to let Joffrey enjoy her pain by schooling her face and her voice into an impassive countenance.

These two options are the forms of resistance that she continues to employ whilst she’s a captive in King’s Landing – and as the seasons progress, we see how she adjusts this resistance to more sophisticated and subtly manipulative forms.

#game of thrones #sansa stark #character analysis #winterfell's daughter

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geekprincess26 · 7 years

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The Straw Clue: Why I Believe Jon Snow is Undercover

A/N: This is a repost of the meta I published yesterday. I’ve edited it for clarification and because the original post eliminated a couple of key details that I wanted to include. Hence the revised and (I hope) improved version of this weary Jonsa fan’s attempt to organize her thoughts about the “Undercover Jon” theory and overcome her meta writer’s block once and for all:

Over the past few weeks, I’ve explored all manner of amazing metas and discussions on Tumblr that delve into the “Undercover Jon” theory. It’s taken me a while to process them all (not to mention calm my nerves, which were so rudely jangled by the season finale) and figure out where I stand on the continuum of opinions among my fellow Jonsa fans, which seems to range the gamut between these two opinions:

1) Jon is a hopelessly honorable Northern fool, just like Ned Stark. He made the same mistake with the Northern lords this season that he did with the brothers of the Night’s Watch in season 5, when he allowed the Wildlings through the Wall against his brothers’ wishes because he believed with all his heart that it was the right and honorable thing to do, and it would serve his end goal of fighting against the White Walkers. This season, he made another highly unpopular decision – leaving Winterfell and heading south to Dragonstone – because he believed, once again, that it would serve the higher purpose of saving the North, and all of Westeros, from the White Walkers. Once at Dragonstone, he found himself outmaneuvered and in over his head. He found himself imprisoned and Daenerys (mostly) unresponsive to his appeals for assistance and recognition of the demonic force about to envelop Westeros in its icy grasp. He initially chose to embark on a suicide mission rather than give away his people’s freedom, but over the course of that mission, Daenerys helped him, saved his men’s lives, and lost one of her precious “children” in the process. Her sacrifice won his trust and respect so completely that he decided she was a worthy ally, worthy enough to rule the North as well as the rest of Westeros. Trust and respect turned to love, or at least deep admiration, and the boat scene happened. In other words, he acted like a noble idiot, just as his “father” Ned Stark did.

2) Jon Snow’s time with the Wildlings and his experiences with Northern politics have made him a capable deceiver. He’ll never be in Petyr Baelish’s league because he is honest and honorable at heart, but he’s become pragmatic and practiced enough to use deception when he deems it necessary in the service of a greater good. Before heading to Dragonstone, he (with Sansa’s counsel and approval, probably) formed a master plan to spend his time at Dragonstone (a) persuading Daenerys to believe and help him, and, in the event that failed or took any significant length of time, (b) learning every nook and cranny of Daenerys’s and her allies’ strengths and weaknesses so he could use them as leverage to persuade her, if necessary. He failed to carry out the first prong of this strategy at first, but he succeeded spectacularly at the second. He observed a great deal about Daenerys, but played the “quiet, brooding Northerner” card so that she could not discover any weaknesses to use against him. Eventually, he discovered that her crush on him was her greatest weakness, and he took advantage of it to the hilt in episodes 6 and 7 by pretending to bend the knee and convincing her that he returned her affections. However, he meant none of it, and he doesn’t trust her or her dragons as far as he can throw any of them. He only did what he did because it was necessary for him to gain her trust and assistance against the White Walkers, and he’ll abdicate the Northern throne in Sansa’s favor if he has to in order to ensure that the North stays free and independent.

The more “Game of Thrones” fans’ opinions I encountered, both within and outside of the Jonsa fandom, the more I also observed a sharp break not too far past point 1) on this continuum. People who congregate back toward 1) from that point believe some variation of the opinion that Jon truly fell for Daenerys and will be content to relinquish the North to her permanently, even if he initially did not intend to do either. On the other side of the break are those who believe that Jon’s quick relinquishment of the North and rush of apparent affection for Daenerys are too implausible and inconsistent with his character to be taken at face value. Therefore, the only plausible explanation for his actions is that he is deceiving Daenerys to some extent in service of his plan to defeat the White Walkers. People on this side of the continuum may disagree as to the extent of that deception – did he have a master plan complete with backups before he headed off to Dragonstone? Did he go there with every intention of gaining Daenerys’s assistance by honest means, only to find himself backed into a corner by her skepticism and insistence that he bend the knee, and see deception as the only way to get out of that corner and gain the friendship of a foreigner he didn’t trust but did need in the only way he felt he could? Was it some odd combination of the two? However, everyone in this camp seems to agree that at some point Jon decided he could not get Daenerys to help him by employing any means other than deception (whether about his affections, his willingness to bend the knee, or something else), and eventually he did so in order to accomplish the greater good of defeating the Army of the Dead.

When I first watched episodes 6 (ugh) and 7, I found myself in the first camp, and that hit me right in my tender, Jonsa-shipping heart. Jon Snow may be a man of few words and know how to play his cards close to his chest, but Kit Harington has always managed to convey his emotions beautifully with his mastery of non-verbal cues. Look at the way he cradled Ygritte’s lifeless body in his arms at Castle Black, or the internal war revealed by the way he grimaced while she was ripping him a new one about being loyal to “his woman” while he and the Wildlings were preparing to climb the Wall. He looked so defeated at the end of the tent scene before the Battle of the Bastards, when Sansa threw his offer of protection back in his face, that I wanted to leap through the screen and give him a hug. When he pleaded with the Northern lords to understand his reasons for going to Dragonstone in episode 2 of this season, I disagreed with him, but that sad, hurt look of resigned determination on his face made me want to yell at the Northern lords for ganging up on my poor kicked puppy. Jon Snow may not speak much except at need, but when he does, he’s usually as honest as they come. So even though I was very disappointed in his acquiescence to Daenerys, I initially couldn’t find any other explanation for his actions more plausible than “he meant it, because he said it, and Jon Snow’s always been a little too much of a Ned 2.0.”

But then I read countless metas and discussions and thought some more about this season in general and Jon’s behavior in particular. I re-watched a number of scenes that intrigued me. That was when it happened: I finally made the leap onto the other side of the continuum break. I had a number of reasons for doing so, but the factor that tipped the scales – the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back – was the way Jon acted during his final scene in episode 6, when he (seemingly) offered the North to Daenerys without even being asked to do it. No variation of the “honest Northern fool” theory could account for his behavior to my satisfaction, so that left only one alternative explanation: namely, that Jon meant to secure Daenerys’s aid by using any means necessary, including flattery (“I’m so sorry about your dragon”; “they’ll see you for what you are”), the (likely false) implication that he would hand her the Northern throne, and any other deception he thought necessary to perpetrate. How exactly did the thought process of a reluctant convert work? More or less like this:

During his last scene of the episode “Beyond the Wall,” I watched Jon Snow, heretofore one of my favorite “Game of Thrones” characters, disappear before my very eyes. Gone was the skeptical, strait-laced, reluctant (and not always competent) diplomat who had to that point stubbornly refused to hand his beloved North over to the mercurial Daenerys Targaryen, whom he had plenty of reasons not to trust. As soon as he opened his eyes from his berth on Daenerys’s ship to see her staring at him, he was replaced by the character I now refer to as “Doppelganger Jon.” He turned on a dime into a starstruck, lovelorn knight all too willing to abandon his every promise to the North and especially to the only family he had left (Sansa, Arya, and Bran) in order to please his temperamental, untrustworthy, but suddenly irresistible lady love. From that point until the rest of the season, his voice softened and his eyes lit up practically every time he saw Daenerys. He coddled her, reassured her, made love to her, and made me wonder just what manner of creature had body-snatched the King in the North - especially when episode 7 and The-Scene-That-Shall-Never-Be-Named came along.

And I found that behavior to be even more inconsistent with Jon’s character even than outright deception. Jon has shown a willingness to deceive others (albeit reluctantly) in the service of a greater purpose, but he’s never shown the slightest bent toward falling head over heels into the bed of a woman he told to take a hike two episodes prior. This is the man who refused to bed a very willing prostitute because he was afraid he’d father a bastard; the same man who refused a very willing Ygritte until faced with the possibility of blowing his cover to the Wildlings; and the same man who refused a very willing Melisandre because he was still mourning the only woman he’d ever loved. It took him quite some time even to fall in love with Ygritte, at that, and in the end he left her regardless in order to keep his Night’s Watch vows.

By season 7, Jon had become even more of a skeptic about love and about people in general than he was back in season 3, when he fell for Ygritte – and therefore, in my book, even less likely to turn on a dime and fall swooning into Daenerys’s arms. His stint in the Night’s Watch taught him both how to betray others (Ygritte and the Wildlings) and how little he could trust even his sworn “brothers” (in the cases of the mutinies against himself and Jeor Mormont). Therefore, it would take a lot longer than two episodes for him to go from telling a woman he clearly didn’t trust to stick her bend-the-knee demands where the sun didn’t shine (”Eastwatch”) to bedding her with wild abandon. Even though she did agree to help him, it was in a moment of overwhelming emotion, and her past behavior had given Jon more than enough reasons to look upon that agreement with his usual healthy skepticism. What if she went back on that agreement in a moment of anger? What if she decided to use her dragons on a recalcitrant North that refused to follow its king’s lead in bending the knee? No, Jon needed to ensure that Daenerys’s willingness to help him was permanent, and the most logical way for him to do that was to use her strongest possible motivation, i.e., her desire for a romantic relationship with him. And even if, for argument’s sake, he did grow a sudden infatuation, or even affection, for Daenerys, he would not prize it above his ultimate loyalty to his family, his people, and the survival of Westeros if he had to choose between the two. He left a woman (Ygritte) before for the sake of his “brothers,” and he’d do it again if he had to. He needed to win Daenerys over and to ensure that she would stay on his side, but it wasn’t for love. It was for the sake, once again, of a greater good: the survival of Westeros and the North and his family. The Jon Snow we’ve known for six and a half seasons would die on that hill, and his sudden apparent retreat from it at the end of episode 6 was too bizarre a turnabout for me to swallow, even accounting for the season’s exceptionally bad writing. It was the straw that broke my camel’s back and made a convert out of me. To what extent his deceptions were planned and to what extent he flew by the seat of his pants, I’m still trying to sort out in my own mind, but I believe this one thing to be true:

Jon Snow is undercover, y’all. It is known.

#undercover lover jon #jon snow #game of thrones #anti-jonerys #game of thrones meta theories #my ramblings

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nyangibun · 7 years

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GoT S07E06 Thoughts

So I don’t know if this is late or early considering technically the episode doesn’t air till Sunday, but whatever, here we go:

There was only one awesome thing about this episode, which was anything to do with the Night King and the Wight Dragon. Everything else was a complete departure from all we’ve come to learn about these characters, but that aside, let me try to understand it as best as I can.

We start the episode on Jon and the rest of the A Team trudging along and making fun of Gendry. I actually really liked all these scenes because the male bonding was done well, the dialogue was funny and the chemistry between these characters was believable. I mean I didn’t know I needed a Tormund x Sandor best friendship till that episode, especially when they begin talking about Brienne. Mr Tormund “I want to make babies with her” Giantsbane. It was brilliant, needless to say.

What’s not so brilliant but a great moment of foreshadowing was Tormund’s conversation with Jon. He essentially tells Jon that although Mance Rayder was a great man, his pride got a lot of people killed, echoing Jon’s own words to the man:

“"Isn't their survival more important than your pride?”

And of course Dani’s words to Jon in the Cave of Invisible Chemistry.

The problem I have with this is that it comes from Tormund, a wildling man whose pride is as much as a defining factor as his ginger beard. But whatever, I see what they’re trying to do here. They’re trying to justify what happens later because if Tormund can understand the dire need for Dani’s help over his own pride then Jon should too, and he does, of course, as we later find out.

Here’s the thing though. I am still firmly of the camp that it’s all a ruse, and this is the moment Jon realises he might have to bend to Dani’s will for her alliance. He doesn’t want to and he knows fully well that the Northern houses will not accept her as their queen in any capacity, but all he cares about is his people’s survival through the Long Night. He’s willing to lose his kingdom for their safety. And this thought becomes even more concrete in Jon’s mind the moment Dani arrives to save his dumb ass with her three dragons. The look of awe on his face as those dragons rain hellfire on the wights is indicative of this because up until that point, he’s had a very abstract understanding of what these dragons are capable of and how they can help him. Seeing it in person, seeing them turn a hopeless situation into a victory, Jon fully understands now that the only way to survive is for Dani to fight with them with her dragons.

It’s the only way this exchange makes any sense:

“How about my queen?”

“How about those who swore their allegiance to you”

“They’ll come to see you for what you are”

“I hope I deserve it”

“You do”

Now I’ve bolded that line because this is very foreboding. Although I believe Jon is playing Dani, I don’t believe he fully grasps who she is yet for himself. I think he truly does believe she has a ‘good heart’ to an extent, but going by what we’ve seen in the past five episodes, he is also extremely wary of her. He’s seen her temper tantrums, her questioning of Tyrion (her second biggest fanboy)’s loyalty over his family and how quickly she can go from Coolheaded Ruler to Firebreathing Tyrant. He might not know the extent, but he’s been warned plenty of times not to trust a Targaryen and to be much smarter than Robb and Ned. So although she says she’ll fight with him, he’s reaffirming his loyalty to her. He doesn’t need to do it, but he needs her to fully trust that his allegiance is to her, that he’s as taken by her as she’s obviously by him, because Jon is putting his pride and honour away in order to be a little more ruthless, a little more manipulative. It wouldn’t be the first time he’s used a woman’s attraction to him as a means to get what he wants. Yes, he did fall in love with Ygritte, but you can’t say that a lot of his devotion to her, in the beginning, was done so to prove that he’s just as much a part of the wildlings as anyone else.

For Jon to bend the knee to Dani because he actually believes in her good heart or because he ‘loves her’ would be a complete character assassination when he turned his back on his first love for the Night’s Watch. Duty, honour and loyalty are huge pillars of Jon’s personality. He’s put aside his honour to bend the knee to Dani, but I refuse to believe he would truly put aside his duty and loyalty to the North for ‘love’, especially when he knows that no Northern house will understand why he did it.

There is also a moment when Dani leaves the room that he looks up to the ceiling and sighs wearily. That’s not the sigh of a man because he was nearly killed. That’s the sigh of a man who knows the repercussions of what he just did but having no alternative than to do it, because like I said, there’s absolutely no way the North is going to accept what their king just did. His position is already so precarious. They didn’t agree with him going south and for him to not only do that but bend the knee as well? Without consultation with the Northern houses which they will consider a slight in and of itself? Well, Jon basically just lost himself his kingdom when it comes to light what he did. And this ties in nicely with Sansa’s S7 arc, which has basically been a montage of all the ways Sansa is a fit and just queen in comparison to our other two queens, who are so hell-bent on defeating each other, one burnt a bunch of food reserves and the other one is... well, Cersei.

Of course I believe Jon knows all of this. He knows he’s going to lose the North because of his actions, but Dani doesn’t, so it’s essentially an empty offer. And he knows he can do this because he has Sansa at home and he’s always had unwavering faith in her ability to rule. Jon is the Odysseus to her Penelope, and the trials and tribulations they’re both going through right now respectively only continue to highlight that for me.

Jon will be seduced by a Calypso and Sansa will have to outsmart her suitor.

And speaking of Sansa, let’s bring it back to Winterfell because that’s the other major plot point we need to talk about.

Arya and Sansa need to be locked in a room together to talk their shit out because this is getting ridiculous. Arya threatening Sansa’s life, blaming her for Ned’s death, essentially dismissing the trauma and abuse that Sansa had to endure for years because Arya can’t empathise with her own sister is the most uncharacteristic bullshit I’ve ever seen. The Arya we’re seeing right now is acting more like the waif than the Arya we know, and as someone who has loved and adored Arya for years, I’m justifiably angry about this.

Now there are two reasons why Arya is acting like this. One, D&D is making Arya the mouthpiece for all the Sansa haters that have been spouting their crap for years, blaming Sansa for every discrepancy while celebrating the same nonsense in other characters, only to have Arya (thus the haters) be proven wrong when it comes to light that Sansa is loyal to Jon and the North. If this is the case, I can understand what they’re trying to do, but at the expense of a beloved character? By pitting two sisters against each other? Just goes to show how little D&D actually understand about women and writing real female friendships. I mean they had Jon and Gendry basically declare themselves best friends in a manner of seconds but two women who have suffered unimaginable horrors and have been desperate to be home and safe with their family, aren’t allowed to care about each other. Bullshit.

The other reason is that Arya and Sansa are both playing Littlefinger, fully aware of what he’s trying to do. I want to believe this because it would explain why Sansa seeks Littlefinger out in the first place to talk to him as if she would willingly go to him for advice. After everything that’s happened, after knowing what she does about him and saying all those things about not trusting the man, her going to him for advice seems highly suspicious. Sansa is not that stupid. It would also explain why Arya would threaten to kill Sansa yet hand her the dagger right after.

It would also explain why Sansa sent Brienne away to King’s Landing when Cersei invites her. Of course, there was no way Sansa would go anyways, but the coldness as she orders Brienne to go right after Littlefinger tells her that Brienne would do anything to uphold her oath to protect the Stark sisters, even from each other. And considering Brienne swore a separate oath to Sansa specifically (not Arya), this suggests that if Arya were to try something, Brienne would be duty-bound to protect Sansa from harm. If Sansa and Arya were planning something, they wouldn’t be able to risk having Brienne interrupt. Either that or Sansa would rather die than let anything happen to her sister in spite of what Arya’s been like. I don’t believe Sansa would try to hurt Arya herself. It’s not who she is.

Now moving back to Dani, I found two very interesting things about her this episode. The first was her conversation with Tyrion. Aside from the extremely contrived high school musical type dialogue where Tyrion assures Dani that Jon is in love with her because he’s been staring at her longingly (which I have to say is where!!! I haven’t seen that at all), he also criticises her for burning both Randyll and Dickon. I find it extremely telling that any time he tries to put the blame of anything on her, she gets angry, deflects, accuses him, questions his loyalty and basically absolve herself of all crime.

“When have I lost my temper?”

“Burning the Tarly’s”

“That was not impulsive. That was necessary”

That wasn’t necessary. The burning wasn’t necessary. It was a cruel and sadistic punishment, which has been shown as such all throughout the show. Does anyone remember Jon putting out Mance when he’s burning in the pyre for this very reason? And burning both Randyll and Dickon was unnecessary. Only one of them had to die in order for Dani to make her point across, but she chose to kill both because Dickon dared to defy her. Not to mention her ‘burn or die’ wasn’t necessary if she wants to be a just ruler, which she clearly doesn’t anymore.

Again, Dani is showing her true colours more and more here. I mean do you know of anyone else who constantly insists they’re the rightful ruler and loathes being criticised? Oh yeah, Joffrey. And wasn’t he a peach?

Then you have Tyrion and Dani’s conversation about her succession in the case she dies. Not only does this foreshadow her death, which I believe is inevitable at this point, but it highlights just how short-term her thinking is. All Dani has ever cared about was sitting on the Iron Throne, not the actual ruling, because if she did, she would realise that everything she wants to do would be meaningless if there isn’t an heir to pass the legacy onto. Dani even gets angry at Tyrion for his ‘long-term thinking’ but what kind of ruler doesn’t look to the future when they make their decisions? A really poor kind. Like I’ve said, Dani is a conqueror and that’s it.

The second thing I found interesting was when she looked at Jon’s body as they peeled back his clothes and saw his wounds, confirming that he was literally not metaphorically stabbed in the heart. I said in my last review that Dani is in love with the idea of Jon rather than Jon himself. The awe in her eyes when she sees that confirms it to me. She sees Jon as her equal, as a mirror image of who she is, aka the prophesised hero, beloved by his people just like her. That’s what she finds most attractive about him. She is essentially Narcissus fallen in love with her own reflection. The kicker though is that Jon is as far from Dani as can be. He is her polar opposite as a ruler. And when it all comes to light that he’s a Targaryen, she’ll feel threatened and TargBowl will commence.

Stray thoughts:

- We’re going to have a Braime reunion and I’ve never felt so blessed!! It’s been 5000 years and I’m ready for Jaime to realise he’s in love with Brienne. Make it happen, D&D.

- Where is the Hound going?

- Where the fuck is Bran?

- Are we ever going to see Ghost?

- WIGHT DRAGON!!!!!!!

#jonsa #anti-jonerys #game of thrones #jon snow #sansa stark #anti-daenerys #anti-dany #arya stark #targbowl #got s7 #spoilers #game of thrones spoilers #got s7 thoughts #idk what im supposed to tag anymore #lol #i hate putting the read more on it :(#i prefer reading stuff on my dash #ugh #anti jonerys

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radiantsansastark-archive · 7 years

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Jon getting together with Dany is him pissing on his characterization book and show-wise, the Stark and the North's ideals, goal and everything, every bond that he made especially Sansa's, even on a familial angle, and every basic logic and lessons learned in GOT.

Well personally this is exactly why I am partial to the undercover!Jon or political!Jon theories. I have to believe that Jon is acting this way for a reason. I think Jon sees what D*enerys can become, he saw her turn on Tyrion with her crazy eyes and question his loyalties. He knows she went and used Drogon on people, he may not know the whole extent of it but he at least knows she’s totally fine with using her WMD’s on the people. He sees that her first reaction to everything is fire and blood and that her advisors have to counsel her to take the less murderous route. He knows that D*enerys can completely destroy Winterfell with her dragons if she so chooses to. He has to be careful when dealing with her, she’s narcissistic and totally power hungry. I am very optimistic that once we finally get season 8 that we will get to go “oh okay I totally understand why Jon did what he did” just how we were with Littlefingers death. We had to sit through the bullshit Arya and Sansa storyline but it paid off in the end. I truly believe that Jon is no longer the “northern fool” and is actually playing the game. We are just going to have to wait and see how it all comes together in season 8.

#anon ask #answered #Jon snow

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thelegendofclarke · 7 years

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Whats Sansas soft power I have never heard anyone talk about it before? Is it a real term or just one you use?

Hey Anon! Sorry it has taken me a few days to get to this… But yes, soft power is a real term.

The term “soft power” was developed in the context of international affairs and foreign policy, but it basically refers to the power of persuasion, attraction and diplomacy. Soft power is the ability to shape the preferences of others through appeal and attraction, rather than with “hard power” techniques such as coercion, threats, the use of force, or the use of money as a means of persuasion. The person who came up with the concept, Joseph Nye, actually wrote a really excellent book on it, Soft Power: The Means To Success In World Politics. I had to read it for one of my global politics classes in undergrad and I highly recommend it.

The principle of the hard and soft power distinction and its analysis can also be applied to other subjects besides politics though. Basically anytime there is some kind of power situation, you are going to see it displayed utilizing both hard and soft power techniques. It’s especially unsurprising to see female characters unitizing soft power methods in stories set in such a patriarchal context like the ASoIaF series. Women have to rely heavily (and in most cases, almost exclusively) on soft power as per the gender constructs of Westerosi society. In such a clearly patriarchal system, for the most part, men hold all the tangible power; they control the money, they control the armies, they control the land.

Persuasive and soft power techniques are one of the only ways for women to exercise any agency. Diplomacy is essentially part of the job description for noble women in Westeros. Not only is there is a tremendous amount of political savvy and skill required, but they also need to know how to conduct themselves in a manner that doesn’t threaten their society’s indoctrinated social constructs when utilizing it. It falls to wives to manage the entire household when the lord is absent, as well as manage the education of their children, arrange marriages, play host for other noble families, and act as diplomat and or ambassador during conflicts (as we saw Cat do for Robb).

I think the ASoIaF series is especially interesting though, because it has females who utilize both types of power in very distinct ways. It presents the contrast between characters like Sansa Stark and Margaery and Olenna Tyrell who rely heavily on their intelligence and persuasiveness, and characters like Cersei Lannister and Daenerys Targaryen who are far more prone to hard power displays such as threats or the outright use of force.

Sansa’s entire arc has been about her evolving “from pawn to player,” but even early on in the series she shows that she is not only well versed in observation, but that she knows how to effectively use this to her advantage. I think the most ~famous~ example is probably when she convinces Joffrey not to kill Ser Dontos in ACoK:

“Please,“ Sansa said, “I only meant… it would be ill luck, Your Grace… to, to kill a man on your name day.”“You’re lying,” Joffrey said. “I ought to drown you with him, if you care for him so much.”“I don’t care for him, Your Grace.” The words tumbled out desperately. “Drown him or have his head off, only… kill him on the morrow, if you like, but please… not today, not on your name day. I couldn’t bear for you to have ill luck… terrible luck, even for kings, the singers all say so… ”…Unhappy, Joffrey shifted in his seat and flicked his fingers at Ser Dontos. “Take him away. I’ll have him killed on the morrow, the fool.”“He is,” Sansa said. “A fool. You’re so clever, to see it. He’s better fitted to be a fool than a knight, isn’t he? You ought to dress him in motley and make him clown for you. He doesn’t deserve the mercy of a quick death.”The king studied her a moment. “Perhaps you’re not so stupid as Mother says.”

Sansa knows what to say to Joffrey; she knows to appeal to both his extreme narcissism as well as his cruelty. While at the point she may not be conscious enough of it to use her skills to her own gain, she is still capable of using them to influence others.

As another example, Olenna and Margaery Tyrell are imo probably two of the most masterful employers of soft power of all the female characters in the series. An example that I think stands out is in ASoS when they deliberately play Good Cop, Bad Cop while interrogating Sansa about Joffrey:

“Go on.” It was Margaery who urged. Joffrey’s own queen-to-be. Sansa did not know how much she had heard.“I can’t.” What if she tells him, what if she tells? He’ll kill me for certain then, or give me to Ser Ilyn. “I never meant … my father was a traitor, my brother as well, I have the traitor’s blood, please, don’t make me say more.”“Calm yourself, child,” the Queen of Thorns commanded.“She’s terrified, Grandmother, just look at her.”The old woman called to Butterbumps. “Fool! Give us a song. A long one, I should think. ‘The Bear and the Maiden Fair’ will do nicely.”….Lady Olenna squirmed forward. “Even when I was a girl younger than you, it was well known that in the Red Keep the very walls have ears. Well, they will be the better for a song, and meanwhile we girls shall speak freely.”“But,” Sansa said, “Varys… he knows, he always…”“Sing louder!” the Queen of Thorns shouted at Butterbumps. “These old ears are almost deaf, you know. Are you whispering at me, you fat fool? I don’t pay you for whispers. Sing!”….“The wrinkled old lady smiled. “At Highgarden we have many spiders amongst the flowers. So long as they keep to themselves we let them spin their little webs, but if they get underfoot we step on them.” She patted Sansa on the back of the hand. “Now, child, the truth. What sort of man is this Joffrey, who calls himself Baratheon but looks so very Lannister?”

At this point in the series, Sansa has learned the value of survival over candor at a high cost. It is a lesson she has, quite literally, had beaten into her over and over again. Yet, despite her clear apprehension and reluctance and obvious fear, Olenna and Margaery are able to persuade her to open up to them; they are able to influence her into doing what they want her to do. This subtle manipulation serves as a stark (and fascinating imo) contrast to other female characters like Dany and Cersei who exert their influence in a very different and, often times, very threatening way. Cersei and Daenerys don’t make suggestions or use subterfuge, they give orders and make threats.

You might not have seen soft power used for this purpose before, and I think it’s because people are sometimes reluctant to do so. I do definitely understand some of the criticisms people have for the hard and soft power dichotomy being discussed in a literary context… One of the issues that arises when “soft power” is used as a narrative device is that the distinction between hard and soft power has the tendency to be verrryyy heavily gendered. When female characters employing soft power techniques is that it is often automatically categorized, and then dismissed, as manipulation. And it is to a certain extent. However, persuasion and manipulation are essentially synonyms, its just that “manipulation” carries a much more negative connotation. Additionally, when characters like Sansa use persuasion to please or placate their abusers, it’s inherently contradictory, and also potentially very uncomfortable, to think of them as having any type of “power” or agency in the situation where they are being victimized. These are both completely valid criticisms of the generalization. But when you’re discussing such a patriarchal and political setting like Westeros, having a distinct way to discuss the power dichotomy and compare and contrast how different characters use the power and skills they have is very useful imo.

So yeah, when I say “It would also be really satisfying to see a character like Sansa who has had to rely so much on her more feminine, intellectual “soft power” to be in a position where she is clearly powerful in a more traditional, tangible sense” that’s what I am referring to: the general way Sansa exercises her agency now in contrast to how she could potentially in a position such as QitN or LoW where there was less of a need for her to temper herself, and why it would be such an interesting development to see.

#woof sorry this got SO LONG!#but here ya go! more than you probably ever wanted to know!#asoiaf for ts #got for ts #sansa stark #margaery tyrell #olenna tyrell #soft power #alys answers #long post #anonymous #alys meta

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indigoraysoflight · 7 years

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Ned is absolutely a hero for what he did for Jon but what I don't understand is why the fandom are so full of praise for Ned and Lyanna committing treason to save Jon by harbouring a Targaryen but when Catelyn commits treason (and to a much less serious extent) by freeing Jaime as a way to try and save her daughters people claim she lost the war whereas all she did was put Sansa and Arya first as Ned and Lyanna did all those years ago

Hey there! I agree. Lyanna died not long after giving birth, so Ned and the people around him were the ones to face the repercussions of that decision.

I believe I read it on a post a while ago that if Catelyn were a man, people would’ve loved her and I think thats quite accurate. She was a strong woman who put her family first and was willing to do anything for them. People have literally blamed everything on Catelyn at this point, but a lot of the same folks don’t seem to see that (on the show) Jon literally usurped Sansa and Bran not long ago (I’m not even going to talk about Dany). I hear all manner of excuses defending them and praising them, but if Catelyn and Robb are to be judged as either good/smart or evil/stupid, then every character should be judged by that same extreme scale.

Truth is, none of the characters are that black and white, they’re all flawed, that is the whole point of the series. People making mistakes, because they are people. Sadly the show has made a few (particularly two) characters seem quite invincible, but considering how they’ve changed the story line, I’m not so surprised by that anymore; its all about the ratings at this point. And people are so used to characters that are extreme good/ extreme evil, that flawed characters are not appealing as they are flawed and not picture perfect.

When Catelyn set Jaime free to be exchanged for her daughters, she wasn’t thinking about whether it would make a statement, or be a strategic maneuver, or if it would win the war. She didn’t care about the war; I think by freeing the man that she would’ve killed in a heartbeat was proof of that. Her husband was dead and winning the war was not going to bring him back. She just wanted her children safe and home. And she was likely horrified by thinking about the kind of things that could happen/were happening to her daughters (especially with Sansa married off to Tyrion) and she acted on that impulse to get them out of the Lannister hell. And after what happened to Bran, can you blame her?

In my opinion, Catelyn was one of the strongest, most compassionate, and the most intelligent woman in the series. Most importantly, she was a mother. Her mother’s love always made the last call in terms of decisions regarding her children. And that is exactly what I loved about her. She gets a lot of unwarranted hate. And I’ve just learned to block it out at this point. And either way, it could never even come close to dulling her awesomeness.

#thanks for the ask!#anon ask #answered #catelyn stark appreciation #asoiaf

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steeledstark-blog · 5 years

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@gxtenoughnxrve asked: not 2 be a demon, but your question got me thinking abt sansa and HER siblings.......meta on: any/all sibling relationships that impact your portrayal of sansa!

give me topics to write meta on my muse on !! || always accepting

Not to be a demon you say ashdjshf ;; okay but for real, I love this question and be prepared for little sections per family member under the cut. NOTE: ARYA WAS COVERED HERE

ROBB STARK

Geez buckle up kids because Robb Stark means a lot to both me & Sansa you all have no idea. Except maybe you will , because I WEEP over them all the time.

Her dreams of knights and stuff -- where do you think she got that ?? fuCKING ROBB STARK THAT’S WHERE. It’s really underrated but that idealism, robb has a bit of it too and as kids they were definitely tight. They bonded through dreams and songs of knights and fair ladies. They probably played games of pretend like most children did. Sansa was the fair maiden and he would save her. Every single time.

And somewhere that shifted to expectations of reality, that he would always be there to fight for her and save her. The amount of times she thinks about Robb when trapped in King’s Landing is, intense. He is her hope for escape, ( while she is working on her own to get out at some point , Robb is always the back of her mind, a swift swipe which could end the horrors. a shining beacon of hope ).

Constantly, she thinks to herself how Robb will come and kill them all. She prays that Robb will come for her, she prays for Robb. He is also a huge source of strength:

“ I must be brave like Robb,”

Sansa thinks of him constantly and I imagine there’s sadness there, for now he is a king. But she knows him as the boy smiling with snowflakes in his hair, and despite how much he might have matured and been forced to grow up like she was, he would always be that boy with snowflakes in his hair.

So losing Robb, it was more than losing a brother she was close to. It was losing hope. It was losing all signs of an incoming victory. and it was losing her brother which is still valid and heartbreaking .

And this one line, it just always gets to me:

“it was Robb she wept for”

With my portrayal moving forward, I just find Robb super important to her for all of the above. And as her time as Lady of Winterfell into the role of Queen, so much of her decisions and fears were based on Robb. On what Robb wanted for the North. On fearing a repetition of his mistakes.

And when sitting on that throne, crowned queen of the north, it’s Robb her heart can imagine smiling down upon her.

JON SNOW

Okay going to try and not make this one long either but this dynamic is incredibly complex and I have a lot of thoughts on it so, deep breathes, here we go . . .

Let’s start with childhood, where Sansa cites in the show that she was AWFUL to Jon, and in a way, yes . But it was not verbal abuse or torment, it was a different sort of awful and I need to make that clear. Sansa was very close to her mother in her youth and followed mother’s example in most things, including the treatment of a bastard boy. It was tiny acts like always referring as “ half” brother, and mostly ignoring / not paying him much attention.

Though there is one quote where she compares him taking black to being a dark knight – and this one line, it sort of made me wonder if this girl who relied so much upon songs to form her views of the word- if growing up she wasn’t sure where he fit in her song / narrative ? In what tale is there a BASTARD hero ? Sansa, who wants everything perfect and simple, Jon does not fit those boxes perfectly, so she mostly had nothing to do with him?

It was much apathy than cruelty back then. but I also refuse to believe they didn’t have ANY good moments. If they did, it was just hardly spoken of, overall, neither really got to know the other.

Now, Jon doesn’t really come up much until she is gone from home for a while and as a side thought how she would even like to see Jon again. Because although never close as kids, it’s still a reminder of home she craves. It’s not until her time as Alayne stone that deeper connection and understanding forms. Which is why I find this storyline vital - for it leads true apology and sentiments during reunion based on similar experiences.

“ i am a bastard too now, just like him. oh it would be so sweet to see him once again” - her experiences she faces as Littlefinger’s bastard, it has her open her eyes more on how Jon must’ve felt, and puts her in a position to easily empathize, and that is going to make all the difference upon a reunion. It’s Jon her experiences remind her of, and she feels regret for all that happened. It’s him that she actually longs to reunite with for more than the fact of family, that she owes an apology and longs to make things right.

Now, we don’t have them having met up in the books, but I love how the show built their relationship and I am completely on board with it. The reunion is something as mentioned, she longs for but also fears, because he has every right to hate her. And when he forgives her so quickly in the show, there’s so much relief, and I believe immense warmth from her end. Because they were far from close and how much upfront loyalty and solace they find in one another, it’s super heartwarming and means a ton.

They really benefit a lot from each other. Let’s be real, she is one of few who can make him genuinely smile. He is the first bit of her family she meets after years away and she gets attached very quickly. There are of course disagreements, frustrations when he won’t listen to her. But despite all of that, she still has his back and would fight for him. As we have seen countless times before.

It’s a journey for her, and by the end he is part of the pack and will ALWAYS be her brother. Even when learning the truth of his heritage, she will now always see him as such.

BRAN STARK

Now Bran is going to be mostly headcanon based because ahdjshfj we needed more of him with any of his siblings that would’ve been cool. But okay, Sansa and he totally bonded over stories as children. But she also mommed him a ton, would try and act like mum which was probably immensely irritating to him, but you know siblings. they squabble.

We also need to address when she was leaving bran when he was near death, to go South. King’s Landing was a dream, Joffrey was a dream to her. But despite all this excitement, leaving at that moment guilted her , she had dreamed of leaving but not like this. And for the first week on the road, it was nonstop prayers and embroiding articles he may enjoy when he was better. Bran was constantly on her mind. And when he woke up, you cannot convince me otherwise that Sansa didn’t try sending him letters of even smaller topics to cheer him up.

Bran was her little brother, and I feel like she really coped in King’s Landing by seeing bits of him in Tommen . Also, Bran’s ‘death’ and the burning of Winterfell ? destroyed her and made her probably the angriest she has ever been. To the point that she thought the worst of Theon and wished the worst for a while in anger for what he did to Bran and Rickon.

And when she imagines her future children while coping with her present situation, there’s always a boy who loves to climb like Bran did , who shares some of his features. And those details in a mentally safe spot for her means so much. Now years later upon the reunion . . . I cannot speak to how this will be pulled off in the books, all I have is show material to go off of for this but . ..

Fuck you D&D for making Bran robotic . . .

Like, yes he can be overwhelmed with a new identity and endless knowledge but it doesn’t have to turn him to a flat character with no emotional capability. In my mind here is how their reunion and relationship goes.

They are both incredibly dry and sarcastic with that Stark Snark, They side-eye a lot and share a lot of inside jokes but both keep really fucking good poker faces. They also BOND OVER RESILIENCE AND SURVIVAL without obnoxiously bringing up some triggering memories bluntly cough cough .

And okay, but bran is different as three-eyed raven and I can recognize that to extents --- but he is still Bran and her brother and she loves him and tears up seeing how far he’s come and she misses him though. Sansa will never stop seeing him as her brother and do everything to try and pull out fondness and emotional capability.

RICKON STARK

This will probably be 99% headcanons but this is just as important to me.

Look, Sansa loves babies and she was at an age to absolutely play with baby Rickon all the time ( and by play, I mean young enough to mistake him as a doll and try to play mother with him, like she would come by and snatch that baby ) .

Rickon is also described as wild as a winter storm, and I feel like Sansa was one of the few soothing presences for him as a kid, who knew how to try and ease his energy without encouraging it. She was balance and stability for him. And Rickon was wild but someone she vowed to protect as a good sister.

They shared a bed during nightmares. A lot of what Sansa picked up to care for Robin after he lost his mother came from comforting Rickon and his fears , she knows what can calm the nerves from what works with him.

Now, same headcanong as in Bran’s in regards of her anger regarding Bran & Rickon’s ‘ deaths’ at the hands of Theon and the burning of her home.

Sansa, she mourns the man rickon could’ve become, and it’s something she constantly imagines. It makes her sad, to know the potential there was. And she is left with so many unanswered questions.

I just, we don’t get much and what we do in the show is kind of gross like um why didn’t she mourn??? Because Rickon was pushed to the side in the show but he would be mourned !! except hey he is still alive and they reunite.

They WILL reunite, and find solace in each other. He would be the wild to her rationale. She, his impulse control. She will see so much of Robb in him as he grows up. Rickon would stay in Winterfell by her side, and together they’d find good policy.

Sansa will be there to see him grow up, and that means so much to her.

#gxtenoughnxrve #in a castle built of snow || headcanons #out of the walls of winterfell || ooc #[ me not realizing how much i had to say on each until this came out like especially the ones with ZERO CANON SUPPORT LIKE BRAN ??]#queue of the north

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