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moonlightdreamzz · 4 years

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My First And Last — Huang Renjun

Renjun has a confession to make.

Request: Hiiii =3. How are you, i was wondering if i could get a renjun x woc fluff fic when he confesses to y/n at highschool in front of the dreamies. tsym i love your writing!.☆*: .｡. o(≧▽≦)o .｡.:*☆

“Renjun, what’s the answer to number five?”

He always hated this class, but today especially was he extremely irritated with it. This weekend had been quite eventful—him spending the whole duration with his boys, and while everything was perfect at first, Sunday night was quite interesting.

It was no secret that Huang Renjun was in love with you. Well, at least to Mark, Chenle, Jisung, Haechan, Jeno, and Jaemin. If a stranger asked he would quickly deny the accusation, claiming the two of you as close friends only, but even they saw through it. The little red tint that would appear on his ears was a telling to the cap he expressed.

Last night, there was an intense game of truth or dare taking place. They all would admit that it was quite childish to be playing such a game as seniors in high school, but they also rarely cared about what others thought. They were bored and waiting on their pizza—what was a better choice?

“Truth or dare, Renjun?”

Chenle was eyeing him closely as his eyes lowered like the evil boy he could be towards his older friend.

“Nah, he doesn’t get a choice. He’s been forcing us to pick dare this whole time.” Mark interrupts, putting the truth cards behind his back. The boys and your girls had made these cards awhile back, wanting to make sure you always had something to do if you got trapped in Renjun’s home during a stormy night or something of that nature. Your hand writing was prominent on the index cards, and he really just wanted to hold a card in his hand. It sounded extremely creepy, but he had missed you. It had been a while since you were able to hang out with him.

“Fine. Dare.” Renjun sighs, covering his eyes. He doesn’t even want to think about the crazy shit one of them was going to ask him to do. Prank call one of his ex’s—politely of course, make him run down the street in a little too much skin showing especially in the freezing cold weather that covered this side of the world this season.

“Hm.” Jeno sighed, his mangled black hair giving him a boyish look as his hand fell on his chin. “Are you guys thinking what I’m thinking?”

No. Why didn’t he predict this? Maybe because he didn’t want to believe his brothers would betray him in such a way.

“Please...” he trails, but the grins on their faces showed there was no going back. It had already been determined.

“You have to tell Y/N you like her.” They all say in unison, laughing loudly as this was all too funny for them.

“I will literally do anything else. Anything.”

Renjun is picturing it now. Him telling you, and your face going from a concerned eye from him saying he needed to talk to you, to a disgruntled look after his confession. Your plump lips that he wanted to kiss so badly would go into your pearly whites, but not in a good way, even though it would look good regardless. You’d feel bad for him—taking a step back and removing your hands off of his shoulder.

“I don’t feel the same, Renjun.”

He didn’t need to actually go through with the plan because he had tried it so many times in his head. Girls like you didn’t fall for guys like him, and honestly he had accepted that a long time ago.

“Do you guys just want me to get curved? I mean seriously what the hell.” He cries out as a pout shoots from his lips.

“Look, we’ll be there.” Jisung assures.

“And if she curves you, you can always say you’re just joking. That’s what I did with Brianna.” Haechan smirks.

“She knows me. She knows I wouldn’t joke her like that.”

“Then you better hope she says yes.” Mark giggles—the doorbell ringing at the same time. The pizza was here, which meant Renjun really couldn’t get out of this now.

That’s why as he sits in his last class of the day, he feels his hands shaking. Truthfully, he thought maybe the boys had forgot about it, or would let him slide, but they made sure to blow up the groupchat with words of encouragement.

— Our boy is finally going to get his girl.

— And if she doesn’t we’ll be here bro.

— We told Y/N and them to meet us at the ice cream spot after school.

Renjun couldn’t help but to laugh sadly at that. You don’t even like ice cream. You were much more of a frozen yogurt person but of course they wouldn’t know that. Not only was he going to get curved by you, but it was going to happen in a place you despise.

“24.” Renjun finally answers the question his math teacher wanted the answer for.

“Good. Make sure you do all of your homework, and no excuses. A for effort so show your work.” That was always the closing statement of his math class, but it also meant that he could pack up his stuff and sneak out. He zips his book bag up—throwing it over his shoulder before walking out of the room. Lucky for him, the door that lead to the parking lot wasnt too far.

As he approaches his cherry red vehicle, he sees that Jisung and Chenle have made themselves comfortable on the hood of his car. They couldn’t drive, so he was frequently giving them rides home, not that he minded. They didn’t live that far away and plus they practically did everything together anyways.

“Are you ready, bro?”

“Are you seriously making me do this?” He sighs, unlocking the door. He gets inside the drivers side while Chenle takes the passenger and Jisung gets in the back.

“Absolutely.” They both say together. The engine is starting, and Renjun is putting the car in drive. “Woah woah.” Chenle interrupts. “Don’t you want to wait for your girl? School ends in five minutes baby.”

“If I see her, I’ll end up driving home instead of to the ice cream place. Just trust me.” He can’t even care about cold weather on his engine with no warm up time. He has to go, and he’s pulling off. He feels his phone vibrating, and he expects it to be Mark or Jeno making sure he’s actually going to show up, but it’s you.

“What’s with the smile?” Chenle interrogates, trying to look over, but Renjun locks his phone before he can see.

“Oh we know what that is!” Jisung screeches from the back, dapping Chenle up at once.

“Yessirrrrrrrrr.” Chenle screams loudly. It’s at this point that Renjun wishes he could somehow cancel out all of this noise. He loved his friends, but he also hated them very much.

“You’re getting excited for nothing.”

“Yeah whatever.” Jisung responds. His eyes are now locked onto the trees they’re driving past as the light turns green.

It didn’t take them that much longer to get to the ice cream parlor. Surpisingly, Jeno, Mark, Haechan, and Jaemin are already here—music blasting unnecessarily. It was very clear that Mark had the aux as YBN Cordae was preaching for the whole shopping center.

Just as he’s about to park, he sees you. I mean, it was quite easy to recognize that frame, and he doesn’t mean that in a perverted way. You were just so perfect and he couldn’t resist to praise you. You’re approaching the window of Jeno’s car and he can hear you now calling their current set-up ghetto and telling them to turn the music off. All jokes of course, and everyone knew only you were allowed to make them. God, he loved you so much.

“You got this.” Chenle encourages, slapping his knee before getting out of the car. Everyone else follows, and Renjun notices that your friends weren’t hiding in your car.

“Did you come here alone?” Is that first thing he asks you as he embraces you into a quick hug. You smell like perfection, but it fitted you. I mean, you were.

“I tried to get the girls to tag-a-long, but they said it was too cold to be outside and definitely too cold to get ice cream.” The wind blows as soon as you finish your sentence, and he sees the way you shut your eyes tight as if that would make it better.

“Oh no we gotta get you inside.” He says, pushing you towards the door. “Fathead.” He adds, causing you to turn around and punch him in the arm. The other boys are not too far behind.

The parlor is chilly, but it’s much better than the outside. There are pretty lights that glow inspirational quotes such as—“follow your dreams“ “seek what sets your soul on fire”. Quite ironic and bad timing, but knowing you, you find it to be very cute. He would too if it wasn’t mocking him so badly.

“What are you gonna get?” Renjun questions, allowing you to get in front of him to see the board better. Since it’s a Monday, and school just ended, there’s nobody in here but you guys. A habit you formed when you’re thinking heavily, you’re twirling about five braids around your pointer finger. He knows that you’ve made a decision when you take those pieces of hair and throw them behind you.

“Nothing.” You say with confidence. “I can’t do this to myself.”

“Well I know, but maybe you should try something. You might like it a little. I’ll pay?”

“Or how about I just eat some of yours.” You smile brightly at him, your hershey colored skin looking flourecent under the bright lights of the building.

He knows there’s no changing your mind. Once you say something, you mean it. It was all about compromise with you.

“Deal.” He chuckles lightly, moving forward to order.

While he’s at the counter, you speak to the other boys for a little before going to find a seat for you all. Renjun really wants to know what you guys were talking about, as it seemed to be a very hush conversation. Or maybe he didn’t want to know.

He gets his ice cream before the others, and he sits right beside you. When the other members get theirs, they sit at the table beside you guys even though there was plenty of room. They really were gonna do this to him.

Renjun is quite surprised that you don’t question their actions. I mean, it did look very odd that they weren’t even acknowledging what they just did, and instead decided on talking about the All-Star game that just happened this past weekend.

“How was your day, Rennie.”

This was the nickname you had gave him freshman year, and although some tried to call him that as well, it just didn’t feel right unless it was coming from your mouth. You seem to be a little tired—probably from staying up last night to study for a test.

“Not too bad. I’m a lot happier now than I was like 30 minutes ago.”

“And why is that?”

“Can’t tell you.” He smiles sadly, fiddling with his cup full of dairy.

“Oh no, we’re not doing that.” You kick him lightly under the table. “What’s wrong?”

“It’s embarrassing.”

“Come on, they’re not even listening.” You whisper, eyeing the boys who were still going on about how Aaron Gordan got robbed on Saturday. “Talk to me.”

“How do I get this out.” He trembles, fiddling with his fingers as he has to look everywhere but your eyes. “Do you remember when we first met?” He questions.

“Of course. Biology, 1st period. I hated every second of it other than you.”

“I felt the same way.” He chuckles. “But I also felt something else. As time went by.”

You’re not clueless. You know exactly what he’s trying to convey to you. The gentleness in his tone, his refusal of eye contact, it was all leading up to a confession, right? He can see it in the way your body haults. It honestly felt like everything stopped; time, the music, his breathing. Neither of you noticed this, but the boys stopped their yapping too.

“Renjun—

“Let me just get this out, okay? I know you’re going to want to walk away but please.” His voice is hushed now as he grabs your hand. It was something you both did to eachother whenever you were embarrassed, or nervous, or extremely joyful. It was obviously different this time and he could also feel that you know that. Even so you don’t let go.

“Y/N M/N L/N.” He shakes. “Since the day I met you, I knew that you were extremely funny, the sweetest girl I’ve ever met, the most beautiful soul that I had ever come across. But even so I thought I could run away from all of your good attributes. We can stay just friends, right? There just wasn’t a universe where you shared my feelings, so it was better to ignore it. I tried so hard to talk to other girls and give them the attention I wanted to give you to distract myself. It’s stupid I know, but it’s what I tried to do.”

“As the months went by, I realized that it wasn’t going to happen. I couldn’t get over you, but I also couldn’t have you, so I decided that I would be one of the boys in your life that you could always rely on.” He rubs your knuckles softly. There’s a braid hanging infront of your face, and he knows that it’s killing you, so he lets go of your hands for mere seconds to tuck it in another braid. Your features are unreadable right now and he wants to stop, but he can feel Marks hand on his back—patting it in encouragement.

“But I’m in love with you, Y/N. I honestly don’t think I’ll ever not be in love with you. And I don’t want you hearing that to make you feel like I’m forcing you to feel something, or to try to feel something. I just want you to know that you are so loved by so many people. Me especially. I know I’m not the coolest guy in the world, but..but...”

He’s said too much. It felt so good to get his confession out, but now that he was almost done, his breathing was out of control. He had only felt like this when he was in fear of something dramatic—he recognizes this to be because he’s so terrified to hear the rejection he’s going to get, so he runs out. He runs out of the parlor and he takes his ice cream with him. He didn’t even want it anymore.

Of course he’s not going to pull off. He wouldn’t leave Chenle and Jisung here. But he just didn’t want to look at anybody. The minute he sits down in his car and turns it on—an attempt to cool down, he looks into the sky. Was he seriously about to cry?

He’s just going to wait for the boys to finish their icecream. He knows they’re going to come when they’re ready. When he feels a knock on the passenger window, he immediately unlocks the door without looking. He has he hands on the wheel ready to pull off but he also has one question. “Is Y/N in her car yet? We can’t leave her without seeing her pull off.”

“She’s in a car.” Your voice echoes throughout the vehicle. “And she’s very safe. I promise.”

In dramatic fashion, he’s turning his head towards you. When the two of you lock eyes, he can’t believe it. Even when you didn’t have to be, you were so sweet. You were going to politely reject him to his face instead of laughing. An angel.

“I’m sorry—

“It’s my turn now.” You whisper, placing a sole finger on his lip. Except, you don’t speak. You instead take the icecream that was sitting in his cup holder and you’re taking a bite. After you set the spoon down, you’re leaning in. It’s a very slow, but beautiful kiss. First, your foreheads connect, then your nose—your perfect nose. He already loves the feeling. But the best part is when your lips connect. The way your lips completely cover his own and swallow him whole is something he couldn’t have imagined with the clearest mind. The way your lips mold together—it’s romantic—perfect, and he doesn’t understand. He doesn’t stop though. He has fingers in your hair, and he’s bring you two closer than you had ever been. There’s no space for breathing between you two.

It’s him who pulls away.

“I—I

“I love you too.” You breathe out. “I love you so much. And whether you believe it or not, everything you said to me in there is something I’ve felt 1000x more. I swear.”

His eyes are too pure as you look at him right now. He really had no idea. All of your little texts telling him you missed him. How the only reason you were coming to school was to see him. He never caught on. He had spent four years believing he wasn’t good enough for you when in reality he was everything you wanted.

“Are you serious?” He coughs.

“So serious.” You say with pride. “I just ate icecream for you. Believe me.”

He wanted to ask you to be his right then and there. But he didn’t want to do anything to mess this up. Suddenly he hears screaming coming from a cellphone, and it’s yours. It’s the boys.

“What did we say!” You both hear Mark shout. They’re outside now, and they’re running to the car.

“We told you it would work out.” Haechan simpers fron Renjun’s side. He rolls down the window, very confused although he’s putting the pieces together.

“Wait, did you guys know about this?” He’s looking at you now, and you’re so shy. You grab his hand, and it feels so good to hold it back. He’s caressing you’re thumb softly as he can’t hold in his smile anymore.

“Why do you think we dared you to do it?” Jeno laughs.

“They saw me on Friday. Getting some wings.” You put your head into his shoulder. “And they interrogated me.

“Politely, of course.” Jisung smiles.

“We had suspicions.”

“But we didn’t tell her you liked her until she confessed. We were just teasing before she confessed her love for you.”

“Shut up, Mark.” You cry out.

There’s a peaceful silence, before Renjun speaks up.

“Thank you guys. From the bottom of my heart.”

“Of course. You deserve it better than anyone.” Chenle says, tapping the window. They all walk away and now it’s the two of you again.

“I promise I won’t hurt you, Y/N.” Renjun whispers, kissing your forehead.

“I know.” Are your final words. “And it’s the best feeling ever.”

A/N: I hope you enjoyed this! :(

#nct #nct dream #renjun #nct renjun #nct imagine #renjun imagine #nct imagines #kpop ambw #kpop poc #poc kpop #ambw kpop #kpop black reader #nct ambw #nct black girl #woc fics #poc fics

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alatismeni-theitsa · 4 years

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The Children of Hades and Persephone

I received an ask about this so I thought I might concentrate some sources on a post here. Thanks to @coloricioso who guided me on this (and has done extensive research on the matter)!

Here is a big post from @coloricioso (Link) It is a post on Melinoe that is private for now (I think) so I will quote:

The first we must say is that Melinoe is an obsecure figure and the Orphic Hymn 71 is the sole literary testimony of her existence and the only other appearance of her name is found inscribed on a magical device (Athanassakis and Wolkow, The Orphic Hymns, 195). The magical device is a tablet where she is called along with other chthonic deities like Persephone and Hecate.

There are some sources on her which I have no access to: Études sur les Hymnes OrphiquesBy Anne-France Morand; Pauly-Wissowa Realencyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft XV, 1978, pages 133-134.

Despite some people want to argue that Melinoe is Hades and Persephone’s daughter I don’t think we can agree on that, and even if we wanted to believe that, the Hymn 71 is not the best source to state Hades’ paternity.

I call upon Melinoe, safron-cloacked nymph of the earth, to whom august Persephone gave birth by the mouth of the Kokytos, upon the sacred bed of Kronian Zeus. He lied to Plouton and through treachery mated with Persepone, whose skin when she was pregnant he mangled in anger. (Athanassakis, 1977 edition)

I call upon Melinoe, saffron-cloacked nymph of the earth, whom revered Persephone bore by the mouth of the Kokytos river upon the sacred bed of Kronian Zeus. In the guise of Plouton Zeus tricked Persephone and through wily plots bedded her; a two-bodied specter sprang forth from Persephone’s fury. –> no skin tearing mention. (Athanassakis, 2013)

Invoco a Melínoe, doncella infernal de azafranado peplo, a la que dio a luz, en la desembocadura del Cocito, la venerable Perséfone en el sagrado lecho del crónida Zeus. Engañó éste a Plutón y se unió a ella con perfidia falaz y en su furor desgarró la piel de dos colores de Perséfone, que empuja a los mortales a la locura con sus fantasmas aéreos... –> He tricked Plouton and mated Persephone and in his rage he teared Persephone’s double colored skin. (Miguel Periago Lorente, 1987, Editorial Gredos). (comment from this version translator: “this verse is not clear, specially when it comes to the double skin color (disomaton, literally double body).. GESNER says it’s due her realtion with both divinities. For one part, with Plouton, her abductor, gives her black color; for other, Zeus, her own father, givves her white color. About the skin tearing we must think it’s due erotic rage of the father with the daughter (…) Some wrongly assume that Melinoe is Hades and Persephone’s daughter.”.

And I was told by my Greek friends that the Greek texts they found,say it’s Zeus who tears Persephone’s flesh.

So… we have rape by trickery and skin tearing; we really don’t want to use Orphic Hymn 71 as a source to try to claim Hades’ paternity, not at all.

If we say “well, Zeus Kronion is Hades and not Zeus”, the Hymn would make no sense by speaking of tricks and everything if Hades was Persephone’s legitimate husband anyway. Some say “why didn’t Zeus just rape the unwilling Persephone and period? why bothering into changing himself into Hades’ shape?”, remember that most of the times Zeus and other gods use seduction instead of raping by force (see LEFKKOWITZ book on this) Just as Zeus changed himself into rain, snakes, swans,*** etc., turning himself into Hades would make the union easier because he could charm and seduce Persephone in that way (and here we coud speculate that Persephone would be willing to have sex if Hades came in because she loved him, and not only slept with him to fulfill wife’s duties or whatever).

(btw, someone in Tumblr said it’s Hades who tears Persephone’s skin out of anger-jealousy of her pregnancy; but I fail to see what source they used to state such thing; from the translations I have read, I understand it’s Zeus the one who does that).

Anyway, if anyone has more information on this Melinoe topic I would be super thankful! ***edit: as a-gnosis said, to deceive Alcmena Zeus changed himself into her husband shape!

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Here is another post from @coloricioso with @a-gnosis adding on the matter (Link). I will quote it as well in case it dissapears in the future:

Two things I’m a bit tired of reading around here in Tumblr and why:

1) “Hades was an infertile god because he was the god of death” : Hades is the god who RULES on the world of dead, and here, again, if you didn’t get it already….. HADES IS NOT DEATH. HADES IS NOT THE PERSONIFICATION OF DEATH. NO, no, and NOOOoO. THANATOS = DEATH. Okay… Hades is the son of Cronus just like Zeus, Demeter and the other gods who were fertile. And Hades was not born as “the king of the dead realm” so is not possible that he was “infertile by nature” associated to his ruler role. The only logic that I could follow is that after living for aeons in a land that is portrayed as sterile (dark, sunless, full of shadows as Homer portrays it in the Odyssey and the Iliad) his body lost the hability to generate any offspring or something similar. But we also have the portrayal of Hades as a god of wealth, richness and fertility, so the “infertile god” imagery is not necessarily a “canon”.

2) “Hades and Persephone had cute children!!”: NO. No. and NO. Get over it, they did not. And here is something for you:

Zagreus: is the child of Persephone and ZEUS in orphic tradition.

Melinoe: is the child of Persephone and ZEUS again in orphic tradition.

And NO, none of the above is “oh but maybe they refer to Hades bcz Hades was called Zeus Chthonion” because in first myth we have Hera’s jealousy on Zagreus -and seriously, why would that happen if it was Hades’ child- and in second myth it is clearly stated that Zeus took Plouton(Hades)’s semblance to trick Persephone. So. no.

Makaria: the only source on her is the Suda Lexicon, that is an encyclopedic lexicon (a dictionary-encyclopedia thing). Makaria’s meaning is “blessedness”. What the Suda Lexicon tell us is this: [A way of referring to] death. [Makaria was] a daughter of Hades. And [there is] a proverb: “be gone into blessedness”, meaning into misery and utter destruction. Or “begone into blessedness” [is said] by euphemism. Since even the dead are called blessed ones. [Makaria was] also a daughter of Herakles, whom the Athenians buried with very expensive funeral rites when she had died on their behalf.[1]

It doesn’t say she was a daughter of “Hades and Persephone” together, it only says of Hades. And since Hades can be used to refer not only to the god, but also his realm, it is most than likely that as a personifcation of death, she is someone who belongs to the Underworld as Thanatos, Hypnos, Erinyes and other chthonian deities.

The Erinyes: the orphic hymns (69, To the Furies) say they are daughters of Zeus Khthonios and Persephone (Holy and pure, from Jove terrestrial [Zeus Khthonios] born and Proserpine [Phersephone], whom lovely locks adorn). This is orphic tradition, because the Erinyes are either Gaia’s or Nyx’ offspring according to “classic” sources (as Hesiod). We could also suppose that despite the “born”, Hades and Persephone are the parents of the Erinyes because they ruled on them and whenever someone wanted to curse and invoked, they had to ask it to Hades and Persephone.

The other source mentioned is Statius’s Thebaid that never says “Hades and Persephone”, neither says “Hades”. Also remember he is a roman poet, so is not greek ancient source. Thebaid, XII, 557: Of their race and famous sires I speak not; they were men, renowned Theseus, and of the seed of men, born to the selfsame stars to the same human lot, the same food and drink as ye are; yet Creon denies them fire, and like the father of the Furies or the ferryman of Lethe’s stream debars them from the Stygian gate and keeps them hovering doubtfully between the worlds of heaven and hell.

SO…. THE CONCLUSION: if you are making Hades-Persephone fan art/fan fiction and you want to get inspired, sure, you can imagine that Macaria and Melinoe are Hades-Persephone’s little cute babies or whatever. But do not state or assume that Hades and Persephone were portrayed and worshipped by ancient greek/roman people as a couple that had tons of little babies because it did not happen. :) thank you.

a-gnosis adds:

I agree. I don’t mind at all when people interpret Zagreus, Melinoe and Makaria as children of Hades and Persephone, but it gets a bit annoying when people believe it’s canon.

There is only one ancient source I know of which seems to suggest that Zagreus was Hades’ son. A fragment from Sisyphus, a lost play by Aeschylus: “Now [I came] to bid farewell to Zagreus and to his sire, the hospitaler.” (source: theoi.com) But since it’s only a fragment it’s hard to say anything for sure.

About Zagreus’ identification with Dionysos in the Orphic tradition… I’ve been reading Ritual Texts for the Afterlife: Orpheus and the Bacchic Gold Tablets by Fritz Graf and Sarah Iles Johnston, and they believe that this myth and cult was created in the early fifth or late sixth century BCE, inspired by the mystery cult at Eleusis. Dionysos’ role in the Orphic cult was to be a mediator between the world of the living and the world of the dead. Therefor he could not be the son of BOTH Hades and Persephone, because that would have made his link to the Underworld too strong: "It would have jarred with other aspects of his mythic and cultic persona and diminished his appropiateness as a mediator between the two worlds, the very role that the new cult demanded from him. He needed a foot in each camp, and Zeus’ paternity ensured him of this".

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coloricioso also told me that Zagreus is son of Zeus and Persephone. Makaria is only named in the Suda Lexicon and it only says "a daughter of Haides".

So the only deities who could be "daughters" to HxP are the Erinyes. Not Makaria-Melinoe-Zagreus as is repeated on Tumblr. Makaria = Hades (1 source only) Melinoe = Persephone x Zeus (1 source only) Zagreus = Persephone x Zeus (orphic cosmology, not panhellenic cult)

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I really appreciate coloricioso and a-gnosis and that’s why I wanted to keep their text on my own post. In case they leave Tumblr or delete the posts I would still like to have those sources somewhere in an archive. I hope that’s ok!

#hades and persephone children #children #hxp #hades #persephone #greek mythology

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vocalfriespod · 4 years

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Bilingualism Isn’t Just For White Kids Transcript

Megan Figueroa: [Music playing]

Welcome to the Vocal Fries Podcast, a podcast about linguistic discrimination.

Carrie Gillon: I'm Carrie Gillon.

Megan Figueroa: And I'm Megan Figueroa. I have some behind-the-scenes info we, or at least I, always forget our intro. [Laughter]

Carrie Gillon: I do, too.

Megan Figueroa: It's, like, 11 words. [Laughter] Well, you forget who goes first –

Carrie Gillon: Yes, you're right.

Megan Figueroa: – or who, who says it, and I forget what it actually is. [Laughter] I think it's, like, um, right before you go out and speak in front of a audience or something [laughs], I have the same thing but when recording for a podcast, so I always forget the intro.

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs] But you remember.

Megan Figueroa: Uh, yes. [Laughter] And if I didn't, we would've waited until I did. [Laughter]

Carrie Gillon: That's true.

Megan Figueroa: The power of editing when recording.

Carrie Gillon: So, this is our last episode of 2018.

Megan Figueroa: Yes, uh, happy late Christmas [laughter], everyone that celebrates.

Carrie Gillon: Happy holidays.

Megan Figueroa: Yes.

Carrie Gillon: Season's greetings. All of the other ones. [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. Happy winter – winter solstice passed.

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs] Happy Christmas, if that's the way you say it.

Megan Figueroa: I started saying that just to pretend like I'm at Hogwarts with Ron.

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: And Harry, that first, uh, in that first movie. [Laughter]

Carrie Gillon: Yeah, uh, apparently, they use both "happy" and "merry."

Megan Figueroa: Oh, okay.

Carrie Gillon: I, for a long time, thought they only said "Happy Christmas." And then –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: – at some point, I realized that that's not true. It's just maybe more salient to us because it's "wrong." [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: Quote-unquote wrong.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, well, you know how Americans like to be quote-unquote "right."

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: I mean, [crosstalk].

Carrie Gillon: No, in this case, it's North American.

Megan Figueroa: Oh, well, yeah.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Uh, I never wanna drag anyone else into it. [Laughter]

Carrie Gillon: Okay, so, we have some e-mails. So, Katie, uh, messaged us to say: "Thank you so much for your episode about Philly English. I grew up outside of New York City, but my husband's family is from the Philly area. My mother-in-law grew up in south Philly has a positive anymore that you discuss in that episode. I'd figured out what it means from hearing it so much, but it still made me feel a little confused every time I heard it." Same, uh, I mean, I know what it means, and I still have to, like, stop and process it – [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Wait, can we do it again? Say, say, um, "I like to go there anymore."

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: And that means you're still actively going there and you like it.

Carrie Gillon: It means you didn't used to go there, but now you do.

Megan Figueroa: There's a change in state.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah, so, or, like, "He smokes anymore." He didn't used to, but now he does.

Megan Figueroa: Okay.

Carrie Gillon: "I'm so glad I finally understand. My husband doesn't seem to have positive anymore in his speech, but he also doesn't think it sounds remarkable in any way." So, he probably does, but it just hasn't –

Megan Figueroa: Right.

Carrie Gillon: – you just haven't heard it, yet. Um, "I've noticed that he and his side of his family, um, all have another construction that I don't have. Where I might say, 'I'm done with,' or finished with something, they drop the 'with' and just use 'done.' For example, he might say, "I'm done this book," or, "I'm done dinner." Do you know if this is a feature, characteristic of Philly English, as well? Or if adding 'with' is a feature of New York English? Thanks so much, and love the show." So, yes, I do know. Do you know?

Megan Figueroa: No, tell me.

Carrie Gillon: Okay, so, uh, there are some regions – Philly is one of them, Canada is another – where –

Megan Figueroa: Ah –

Carrie Gillon: – you don't need to use the "with."

Megan Figueroa: So, tell it to me, tell me something.

Carrie Gillon: Like, "I'm, I'm done my homework."

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, I definitely don't have that.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah, it sounds really strange to people who don't have the feature, but – and I think – I'm pretty sure it's, like, Philly – and maybe that's it – uh, or Pittsburg, too? I can't remember, but it's, it's not very common in the United States, at all, but it's really common in Canada.

Megan Figueroa: Meaning, everywhere in Canada?

Carrie Gillon: As far as I know – I've never heard anyone say, "Oh, this region doesn't have that." But that doesn't mean that's [laughs] not the case.

Megan Figueroa: Right.

Carrie Gillon: So, if anyone knows if there's a regional distinction, let me know. But it's very widespread, regardless.

Megan Figueroa: Well, that's fun. Um, oh, you posted some – you, on Tweeter, um, [laughs] posted, uh, great – ten, our ten best episodes of 2018. Could I just say that I'm really impressed with Philadelphia? [Laughs]

Carrie Gillon: Seriously.

Megan Figueroa: It's, like, y'all make me wanna go visit – [Laughs]

Carrie Gillon: It's a great city.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. Oh, you've been there. Um, you love your city and your – the way you speak, and I love it.

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: And it's infectious, um – and thank you to Betsy Sneller, Dr. Betsy Sneller, um, for talk –

Carrie Gillon: Yeah, for blowin' up. [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Woo, yeah, after, um, she was on the show, she got – she did a morning radio show, which is fun.

Carrie Gillon: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: Um, yeah, so, Philadelphia. And it was one of my favorite titles that we did, too.

Carrie Gillon: That is true. [Laughter]

Megan Figueroa: So, that's cool.

Carrie Gillon: I mean, it was literally just taken from the episode itself, but –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, it was literally a quote. [Laughter] Um, so, thanks, thanks, Betsy, for that.

Carrie Gillon: So, we did have another e-mail from someone who seemed to really think that switching, like, language pronunciation of a, of a proper name, with, within a different language –

Megan Figueroa: Mm-hmm.

Carrie Gillon: – so, you switch from English to Spanish pronunciation, or English to French pronunciation, but just for the name, the proper name of the town –

Megan Figueroa: Mm-hmm?

Carrie Gillon: – the place name. Um, I seemed to think that think that was just not done.

Megan Figueroa: [Laughs] [Crosstalk]

Carrie Gillon: And it, it is, and we actually have an example of it, in this very episode, the way that, um, Abi pronounced Peru.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, that's true.

Carrie Gillon: It's – it happens.

Megan Figueroa: My dad does it all the time. He would never not say it with, like, the Spanish pronunciation, eve, even when he's speaking English, there's no way.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah, I think if it's your, if it's your, your language, and you're speaking in your second language, you're probably gonna just use your first language's pronunciation. And sometimes it's the other way around –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, I mean, and I feel guilty not doing it, because in Arizona, we have a, um – I don't know, is it more a town, not a city – um, Casa Grande, and I always say "Casa Grand," like everyone, everyone else in Arizona. [Laughs]

Carrie Gillon: Yeah, because that's the, uh, at least the Anglo, uh, Arizona pronunciation.

Megan Figueroa: Right?

Carrie Gillon: When, when I first got here, I kept calling it "Casa Grande," I mean, it's still anglicized, but, like, I thought that's how you pronounced it. And it took me forever to realize it "Casa Grand." [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Oh, yeah. [Laughs]

Carrie Gillon: Which I, I actually kind of, uh, I don't know, place names are so fascinating, and I kinda like it when they get mangled like that, like, it's fun.

Megan Figueroa: And there's a lot of emotion, like, attached to it, too.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah. Yes, uh, yeah, that, I think that's, that's exactly the, the point, like, if, if someone is pronouncing it in a particular way, there's probably a reason for that, so, why shit on them for doing it?

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: Okay, so there, there is one more, um, e-mail that we got, um, from Tony, uh: "My name is Tony, and I just listened to your podcast about the Philly accent – " So, yes, the Philly one blew up. Anyway –

Megan Figueroa: Yes.

Carrie Gillon: Uh, "I have to tell you, I loved it. I'm from the Philly area, both parents born and raised in Philly, and I found your show very interesting. I also have a podcast called Finding Subjects – " Um, and I listened to it, and he does have a Philly accent. It's really –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah?

Carrie Gillon: It's really cool. Yeah. Um, "I noticed when I'm doing the show by myself, I talk different than when I have a guest on."

Megan Figueroa: Mm-hmm.

Carrie Gillon: "Alone, I seem to pronounce words less Philly-like, but when a friend is on, I'm more Philly, and I never realized that until listening to your show."

Megan Figueroa: Yep.

Carrie Gillon: "So, feel free to listen to my show, to hear the diff, diff, difference." And, uh, I haven't heard one with him talking to someone else, but I heard the Philly accent – well, when he was talking by himself. So, I just can only imagine –

Megan Figueroa: Oh –

Carrie Gillon: – how much more Philly-like it gets. [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Yes, that's my favorite, because, I mean, we're just social creatures.

Carrie Gillon: Yes.

Megan Figueroa: Even, uh, as, like, I mean, I, ultimately, would, you know, probably rather be alone and reading, but [laughs], I mean, still a social creature, right? We're all social creatures.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: And it's, like, when I am around someone that speaks Spanish, uh, my vowels get different.

Carrie Gillon: Mm-hmm, yeah. Uh, he also said, uh – I just, I only mention this because I wanna give a blanket, blanket okay to people – um: "If you don't mind, I'd like to men, mention your show on my next episode?" Yes. [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Carrie Gillon: Um, anybody, you don't have to ask us, you can talk about us. [Laughs] I mean, obviously, if you're mean, you can still do it – it's your show.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, I mean –

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: I got asked if, um, someone could use, um, a link to one of our episodes, in a presentation they were giving at a conference. Um –

Carrie Gillon: Oh, very cool.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. And of course.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Please.

Carrie Gillon: Feel free. I mean, it's kinda out there in the public, right?

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: So –

Megan Figueroa: I mean, that's why it was so scary to start a podcast, because now my – you know, I'm just out there.

Carrie Gillon: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: But we knew that. [Laughs]

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: So –

Carrie Gillon: Yeah. Um, and, and, it's, like, we wouldn't put it out there if we didn't feel good about it, so, yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, exactly.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Anyway, yes, please share.

Carrie Gillon: So, today, we are talking with Dr. Abby Bajuniemi about heritage languages.

[Music playing]

Megan Figueroa: We're so excited, today, to have Dr. Abby Bajuniemi. Um, she received her Ph.D. in Hispanic linguistics, from the University of Minnesota, in 2015. And we are going to talk about heritage languages, today, which is very exciting.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep.

Carrie Gillon: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: Um, I feel like heritage languages are something that kind of pop up in medias, in media a lot. So, let's just, like, go straight into what is a heritage language.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Sure. Um, I am using one from Anne Kelleher, who is at the University of California Davis, and this is from, uh, the Center for Applied Linguistics. Um, her definition is: "In general, the term 'heritage language learner' is used to describe a person studying a language who has proficiency in or a cultural connection to that language. However, just as there are different kinds of heritage languages, there are different types of heritage language learners."

Megan Figueroa: And do you get the sense that this is, um, something that gets represented in media, just kinda like code switching is?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm –

Megan Figueroa: 'Cause I've seen this thing where, like, code switching is just used kind of to talk about anything, these days. Do you think the same thing's happening with heritage language learner?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: I think so, because, um, I think a lot of the time, when people hear "heritage language learner," they think of people of color, usually, Latinx or Hispanic people, um, because by far, it's the largest, uh, second-language group in the United States. So there's this, like, whole thing around, "Well, why don't you learn English? You should be speaking English." And so, there's this – it's – there's this, like, misunderstanding of what a heritage language learner or speaker is, and the stigma that goes along with it, too. Because you have non – uh, you have white people who are heritage speakers of languages, as well.

Like, you could consider my spouse a heritage speaker of Swedish, because his grandfather came over from Sweden, and, um, his family grew up. And he has got really, uh, pretty much receptive, uh, bilingualism, as far as the Swedish language goes, 'cause he didn't really speak it very much. But, but that's another type, but you don't really hear people talk about that, or –

Megan Figueroa: Right, because it's not as stigmatized.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Right, mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: I was thinking about this before we started to chat. Um, in 2005 – so I don't know if this is how it's still being done, but when I was an undergraduate going to University of Arizona, I had to take this computer test to place me into, um, a foreign language class [crosstalk] take Spanish.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep.

Megan Figueroa: And when I took the Spanish test, there was, like, some demographic info they wanted, and they were, like, "Did you ever hear Spanish in the home?" and I clicked yes. Um, but I don't, I'm not a productive speaker of Spanish –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: – but at the end of this test, I still got placed in a heritage language class for Spanish.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: And which I believe in a level that was way beyond what I could perform at.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm?

Megan Figueroa: Do you have any sense of if this is still happening, or what's going on with that?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: That's actually really early for that sort of thing to be happening. In my, um, in my experience, a lot of those placement tests don't consider background at all. Um, when, certainly, when, when I took the placement test in 2000s, they, it was just, you know, you, you test in the modalities, and then, uh, you get placed based on how well you scored on the exam. There's no questions about, you know, have you ever heard this language in your home, or been in this country, or anything like that. So that's actually, uh, sort of ironically progressive?

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah. [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: But also, I was, like, "Oh, I think I should put – like, they probably want to hear no – " Well, they don't wanna hear no, but, like, if I put no, I might be placed in what I really should be placed in, you know?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah –

Megan Figueroa: But I, I didn't wanna say no.

Carrie Gillon: But you would have, still, like, a leg up, then, over people –

Megan Figueroa: It's true.

Carrie Gillon: – who had the same level of skills but hadn't heard it in the home. So it's not completely wrong –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Right.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: – what they did. Maybe they just put you slightly too high.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah. So the thing, the problem with that is that, there usually weren't, and aren't, enough people that identify as a heritage language, language speaker, to justify entire sections of each level of class.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: So what you end up having – and I had tons of students like this – I mean, when I say "tons," I, I mean, like, teens of them. [Laughs] Uh, but they would be varying levels of proficiency, a lot of them were what we call perceptive, um, so, they have a lot of listening and reading skills, maybe not writing and, and speaking. These students would get put in levels that were above their productive capabilities, and so, that would –

Megan Figueroa: Right.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – lead them to feel really – it would lead to a lot of linguistic insecurity, because you have all these, like, Anglo students who are "speaking better," in quotation marks, than you –

Megan Figueroa: Right.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – and –

Megan Figueroa: And "writing better" than, quotation marks, better than you.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Because they learned where to put the accent marks –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: – and all these things.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: And you're, like, "Oh, now we're gonna practice subjunctive," and they're, like, "What the, what the fuck is that?" [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, exactly, no, totally. Where they can, you know, these, these, quote-unquote, "heritage language speakers" that are placed in these classes, um, can use the subjunctive and they don't know they're using the subjunctive.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: But they're gonna still feel insecure –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: – at least, you know, if there, if it's the right environment for that, to grow some insecurity, right?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah. And there's so much other stuff that parents are actually doing to their kids, too, that in, that adds to that insecurity, as well. Like, uh, one of participants in my dissertation was actually a heritage speaker of Spanish. Her mom was from Argentina, and her dad was from the United States. And so, she grew up hearing and speaking Spanish, and, you know, she had Argentine relatives and everything, but there was this moment where her mom was, like, "I'm, I'm not doing this, anymore. We're not raising a bilingual child." Because, uh, because racism, um, so she stopped encouraging her to speak Spanish.

And so, she ended up in this, like, intermediate Spanish class in her college, and I – so, my, my study was just, uh, was an ethnographic study of, um, language production over time. And so, she wore this little lapel microphone, and she would forget that it's there, and sometimes she would talk to herself. And she, you know, she would talk to her classmates and stuff, they did a lot of, like, groupwork, and her accent was just pure Argentine, it was so interesting and beautiful to listen to. And her, her classmates would be, like, "Gosh, you just sound so great when you speak. You know, I love your accent. Sounds so cool."

And she's, like, "No, I'm not good. No, no, I'm just like you guys. No, I'm not, I'm not." And she just had so much reluctance to speak in class, for the longest time, because, you know, she would try to practice with her mom, and her mom was, like, "No, I'm not doing that. You're not good enough. I'm not – you know, this is – "

Megan Figueroa: Ugh –

Carrie Gillon: Ugh –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, she'd say, "I, I'm too – I, I have too much stuff to do. I can't sit here while you try to tell me something and it doesn't sound right."

Megan Figueroa: Oh –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: And –

Megan Figueroa: Oh, that's so –

Carrie Gillon: Ugh –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, so there, there's, like, layers.

Megan Figueroa: – terrible. I mean, I, you know, I'm used to the story where very, very – well, I mean, her mom, in her own way, was probably well-meaning. But I hear the stories of very –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: – well-meaning parents, like my dad who just was, like, kind of subconsciously was, like, "Not gonna teach my kids Spanish, because it's stigmatized."

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep.

Megan Figueroa: "They might as well get the easiest route through life, here, um, so I don't have to worry about that."

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep.

Megan Figueroa: Um, but to hear, like, this kind of, like, "No, ugh, your, you know, I can't hear your accent, right now – it's not right," is, is hard to hear.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, and then there are other students who are told – it's sort of that, like, you know, "You'll have an easier time in life if you just speak English all the time, and you'll have the advantage that I don't have because I don't speak English all that well." Um, there's this other level of, um, "Well, we don't speak 'good,' quotation mark, Spanish, because we're from a poorer rural community in Guatemala, or something like that, and we don't speak, quote-unquote, 'proper Spanish.' So, um, you're, by default, not going to speak it, either, so you need to go to Spanish classes and learn 'good Spanish.'" And so, they get that from their parents, like, you know, "What we speak at home isn't good." And then you'll have, usually, white teachers, who have never studied sociolinguistics, who are also, like, "You don't speak good Spanish." And so, [laughs] there's, like, all these things coming at these poor kids, to try to undermine their confidence in their abilities.

Megan Figueroa: What can we do better, at the university level, I'm thinking of – 'cause that's where you taught, right?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, yup, yep.

Megan Figueroa: Um, what can we do better for these, these students that are labeled heritage language learners?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Ugh, god, so many things. So, the ideal thing with that, you, would be that you have a parallel track for heritage language learners, from the beginning to the advanced level, that is structured more like a language arts class, instead of a foreign language class. And so, you start with content-based curriculum from the beginning, instead of, you know, some of the stuff that we're doing right now, with our second language, uh, learners, which is a lot of communicative stuff. Which is good, but it's also not necessarily content-based, and so it's not taking advantage of this cultural knowledge and receptive abilities. Like, you're not doing as many movies or readings or, you know, in-depth readings.

Um, a lot of places are kind of moving towards that, 'cause they see the value in both, for heritage language learners and traditional second-language learners, um, but there are still a lot of places that aren't doing that. So, having that parallel track is, I think, the ideal. Um, in reality, I, I don't think that there are budgetary allowances for that, um, in both the faculty and in what the administration will pay for, you know, opening new sections, and things like that.

Megan Figueroa: Right.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Because if you have, like, if you have a small program and you have five heritage language learners, and each one is at a different level, I mean, you know, you can't open a section for each one of those people, right? Moving more, more towards a content-based curriculum I think would, is really helpful. Uh, making your teachers, whether you're in high school or postsecondary, take a sociolinguistics class –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – and stop talking about how their home language is terrible. And framing it more as a, like, "Okay, I'm gonna teach you a different register. You have your home register, which is valid and good and great. What I'm teaching you now is academic Spanish," which is what I did –

Megan Figueroa: Right.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – um, when I was teaching, you know? 'Cause we didn't have the heritage language track, 'cause we didn't have the enrollment to justify it.

Megan Figueroa: Right.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: That's, like, the bare minimum, though. [Laughs]

Carrie Gillon: Yeah. [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. I got the sense, as a student, at university, that it was always PHG students that taught foreign language classes.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, the majority of the faculty that taught language classes was, uh, non-tenure track or, uh, graduate students.

Megan Figueroa: I mean, my TA training at the university level was bullshit, let's be real.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: But did you actually get any? Because I didn't. I was just, like –

Megan Figueroa: It was, like, a pamphlet.

Carrie Gillon: – "Here – " A pamphlet is still more than I got. I was, like, "Here's the – here's what you're gonna be, uh, talking about in your tutorial. Bye." [Slaps hands together] [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Yeah –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: So, we actually were forced to take a methods class, a teaching methods class –

Carrie Gillon: That's good. [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – our first semester. It still wasn't enough, but we were forced to do it just because – I got my degree in a, in a foreign language department, and so, they knew that we were all, like, their undergraduate language, you know, grunt work army. So, we had to. I mean, the literature people, the culture people, and the linguistics people all had to take a language acquisition pedagogy course, at the start of our, our careers.

Megan Figueroa: And did you think it was a good course, just not enough, like, it was a beginning?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, it was, it was good; it wasn't necessarily enough. It gave you the basics to start doing thoughtful lesson planning and figuring out how to make tasks that, you know, will promote language acquisition and use, and things like that. And, and course design, and, uh, assessment design, and those sorts of things. So, we, we created exams together, and we created some lessons together, and basically learned the foundation of language acquisition. But, again, it wasn't – we didn't really talk about heritage language learners. That was me taking further linguistics classes and sociolinguistics classes, that helped really, um, cement that.

Megan Figueroa: I'm thinking about how the, the second point that you made of "we can do better" is to, to treat the, the language of the home as, um, valid, which is so true. And I actually, uh –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: – ran across – I don't know if it was a paper or a conversation about how – and I've said this, like, in our first episode, how I'm, like, people need to hear my vocal fry different, you know? Like, I don't have to change me.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah, no.

Megan Figueroa: People have to hear my vocal fry different. That's how I feel about, um, like, the Spanish we bring from home or whatever, um, is, "Ugh, people need to fucking start listening to our Spanish differently." And I just think, like, that's, like, worlds away – do you feel that way, sometimes? [Laughs] Like, you know, instead of teaching, like, um, kinda like, "I have to teach you academic Spanish, uh, you know, like, but you're, you're valid, this is valid, this is all valid." It's just kinda like, why can't we change the way people hear us kind of thing?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Carrie Gillon: Well, I mean, in academia, though, people are gonna expect certain things, so. I –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: It's hard – I know, I know, like, I totally get it, it's hard. I'm asking, I, I am asking a question that's just so hard, out, like, putting it out there.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: So, I, I think that's easier to do at the college level than at the high school level. 'Cause you have all these, like, you know, lifer teachers that learned audiolingual method, and "repeat after me," and "let's write grammar charts on the board," and it's all just very terrible. [Laughs]

Carrie Gillon: Yes, it is.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, [crosstalk] I’m having a flashback to my high school Spanish classes – it's awful.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: I'm so sorry. [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Cuz I mean, I don't mean to say every Spanish teacher is awful, I just had some very, like –

Carrie Gillon: No –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: No, they're not, but it's the traditional way that languages were taught, so there are still a lot of people doing it. I mean, I had that, and I went to college and jumped into a communicative classroom, and I was, like, "What the fuck, I can't say anything. You're gonna make me talk? No. No. No."

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, yeah, exactly. The most talking we did was actually, like, conjugating. Like, we never said sentences.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: We’d be, like, "Okay, conjugate 'comer.'"

Carrie Gillon: Really?

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, you had, you had better, then, Carrie. [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: Well, I mean, uh, [sighs] yes, we had better French instruction, but it wasn't – still wasn't great. There was a lot of conjugation, but we still had to say full sentences. [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Well, my Spanish teacher didn't even speak Spanish, so.

Megan Figueroa: Oh, no –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: I'm not, I'm not joking. I went to a small Catholic school, and she was – I don't know how she got that job. But, uh, we had a couple of exchange students from Columbia, and they would sit in the back of the class and make fun of her, because she couldn't –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – speak Spanish, at all. And, so, what we did was vocab lists on the board, and conjugations, and, yeah, it was – I don't know how I tested into Spanish 3, but I did. [Laughter]

Megan Figueroa: So, okay, so we've got these people that are kinda stuck in this very traditional and outdated way, in high schools. But you think, like, at the college level, we've got some promise.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, because, um, uh, this is sort of a bad-good kind of thing. Um, so, [laughs] the people who graduate with Spanish Ph.D.s are either literature, culture, or linguistics, right? And so, the literature and culture people are, like, "I don't wanna teach anything but my favorite novel. Uh, language classes are baloney. And we have an army of linguists who need jobs, and they can direct our language program. And they can teach all of our language classes."

So, I mean, it's kind of good-bad, because there's more jobs for linguists, um, they're not always tenure track, and they're usually, like, directing language programs and teaching undergraduate language courses. But that means that you get more people who at least have perhaps been, uh, exposed to sociolinguistics and understand language variation, teaching your undergraduates their, their language courses. And this is more true in your four-year colleges than in your universities where degree programs are granted, because – or, like, advanced degree programs, like, Ph.D. programs.

Megan Figueroa: Um, could you give an example of how, um, like, quote-unquote, "academic Spanish" might look differently than something that a student –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm?

Megan Figueroa: – would bring into the classroom, just for the listeners to kind of understand?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, so, um, one example is with the subjunctive, which we know is very unstable. Um, and so, you'll have – there's a, an if-then clause in Spanish where it's, like, si something with the subjunctive, then the conditional. Um, and in, there are some dialects – I think – it's been a while since I've looked at this literature, but I think Peru might be a place where this happens, um, where it's all subjunctive, so the conditional doesn't exist –

Megan Figueroa: Oh –

Carrie Gillon: Mm –

Megan Figueroa: – cool.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – in those, those constructions. So it's, like, si subjunctive, then subjunctive. Yeah, or the reverse where it's all conditional, so, instead of the subjunctive, it's si conditional, then conditional, if condition, then conditional. Um, so that might something that people will bring into the classroom, something like that. And so we have to say, "Okay, yeah, that's totally fine. That's the way that your family does it, and this is the way it's used in where your family comes from, and that's totally fine. And for academic Spanish, we want to do it this way, instead."

Megan Figueroa: And I think the big thing – and, uh, [laughs] I think we were joking about this on Twitter, once, um, 'cause I'm doing, uh, a Babble Spanish, and it's –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Uh-huh?

Megan Figueroa: – so clearly from Spain – um, the lexical items.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: So, I think lexical items are gonna be a big thing that, that people are gonna bring into the classroom that are different, right, that you might have different words for?

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep.

Megan Figueroa: Is that as big of a issue – like, would you teach them other words for things? Or is it more, like, grammatical structure that would be – look different in academic Spanish?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: I think it's both. Like, you know, I always warned my student – yeah, warned, I guess – that, you know, the textbooks are very generalized, and they often have a peninsular bent. Textbooks are getting better, though, so, like, the last one that I used for an advanced accelerated intermediate course – which is basically two semesters in one, which was very intense. But it offered, like, all the variations, and it told you where they were from. 'Cause a sociolinguist helped write it [laughs] –

Carrie Gillon: Yeah, yeah.

Megan Figueroa: That's really cool.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – so it was, like, "This is – you know, 'banana' is this in this country, and this in this country, and this in this country," and so you have all these different ways of presenting it. And I told them, I'm, like, "I don't care – I don't give discrete vocabulary tests. Whichever one you feel like you wanna use –

Carrie Gillon: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – "do that one," you know?

Carrie Gillon: I mean, you're gonna have to also learn a bunch of, like, more academic jargon stuff. And that's just, like –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: – more academic jargon stuff, and that's just, like, across-the-board gonna be true.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah. And that was more for, like, the advanced writing courses, and, like, intro to Hispanic linguistics, then we got into more of that. But for the undergraduate language courses, not as much.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: I mean, this is definitely analogous to, um, uh, monolingual English-speakers –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: – going into an English com class, right? So –

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: – we bring what we bring to the classroom, and then – and then they're gonna teach us academic English, right, they're gonna wanna – [laughs] they're gonna try to tell us not to split infinitives or whatever. [Laughter]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Whatever bullshit [crosstalk] try to teach us.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm. And I actually got to the point where I would have students who were heritage speakers, they would raise their hand and they're, like, "Well, my, my family says it like this. Is that still right?" And I would just be, like, "Yeah, I mean, if you wanna – use that in your speech all the time. But if I give you a writing, or, a writing exercise, then we have to have you try to use this other way, just so you can gain proficiency in that. But, you know, in your casual writing or in your speech, that's totally fine." Or they would raise their hand and be, like, "At my house, we call it this," and I'm, like, "That's cool. Let's write that on the board. Look at that: dialectal variation."

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: I love that. Well, I love that they're sharing that with you –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: – 'cause I think that's a step toward getting rid of the internalized stigma that they have.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: Because if you're, like – just going through these kind of steps myself, too, if you're really, really ashamed of what's going on with your language, you're not gonna raise your hand and share anything.

Carrie Gillon: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Right.

Megan Figueroa: So it actually – that's a really good thing that that's starting to happen, if you share.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: That usually doesn't happen right away in the semester, like, I'm thinking of, uh, about one student in particular, oh, I just love her. She is such an amazing person. Um, I still keep in touch with her, even though I quit teaching in 2016. Um, she's just such a rock star, she's doing so many cool things. But anyway, at the beginning of the class, she was – it was her first Spanish language class outside of high school, and they placed her in my intermediate course. And she was, like, "You know, I speak Spanish at home, and my parents told me that I have to learn better Spanish, and, you know, that I'm not very good at it, whatever."

And I'm, like, "That's bullshit. You're great. You're, you're wonderful. Like, you know, I embrace the variety you speak at home, and if you wanna ask me questions in class, like, 'Well, I say it this way, you know, why is that different?' you know, we can talk about that." And so, she was just, like, "Oh, my god – " And at the end of the semester, she gave me a card and she's, like, "My Spanish has improved exponentially, my confidence in myself, and my identity as a Latina," and, like, all this – and I'm just, like, "Holy shit, this is amazing. See? More teachers need to do this, because it is so important."

Carrie Gillon: Yes.

Megan Figueroa: I got chills, I had chills. [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, it's so important, because these kids are not getting validated – and language is so tied to your identity and your culture.

Megan Figueroa: Foof, yeah, yeah. Um, and you're in Minnesota – I, I just wonder, what is the Latinx population like, there.

Carrie Gillon: Bigger than you think. [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, it's –

Megan Figueroa: It's bigger than I think?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: It is. Traditionally, we had a very large – like, the whole – I live in Saint Paul, and the whole west side of Saint Paul is, um, Chicano. There is a very large Mexican population from the Bracero Program, where the United States brought in workers for the meatpacking plants. We have, like, the Hormel plant where we have a lot of Central American, um, immigrants that work in the, the meat processing plants, there, and some farms, and stuff like that. But it's mostly the meat processing plants. Um, but, and, and the restaurant industry, too, the restaurant interest, industry is, is big.

We had, um, I, I did a, a gig with a local restaurant, 'cause they were doing some accounting thing and they wanted input from all their employees. And surprise, surprise, they weren't getting input from their Spanish-speaking employees, because there was a language barrier. And so, they brought me in to teach them the, you know, the accounting stuff, and get their buy-in, and get their input, and all that stuff. So, and, and most of, pretty much 100 percent of the back of house, the dishwashers and the cooks and the prep cooks and all that, they were, um, Spanish speakers with limited or minimal English proficiency. So, yeah, it's bigger than you think.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, I mean, everything's bigger than I think. I've spent all of my life in Arizona, where I'm, like, "We have a ton of Chicanos, here." So, like, I always think that I'm overestimating if I assume that there's Chicanos anywhere besides LA and Chicago [laughter], so, yeah. Do you think that there's a lot of heritage, um, speakers that don't get labeled heritage speakers at the university, then? The, the program, the computer program is failing them? Or I don't know if failing them, but just not catching them?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: [Sighs] That's a tough question, because a lot of the one, a lot of the kids that I, uh, had in my classes weren't from Minnesota. So, I don't know if they're going to different colleges, if they're not going to college, if they're going to community college, if they're not taking Spanish, you know, that's kinda hard to say, because, um, they don't – I mean, just 'cause you live here doesn't mean you go to college here, or go to college at all. So, I, and I don't really have much contact with high school Spanish teachers, to know whether that's, you know –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, I always – I guess I, um, have a, probably a bias to think that, if you're a first-gen, you'll probably go really close to home. So, I was just, like, wondering if maybe the students that are getting to go to college or want to go to college go, and are not being placed in Spanish classes. But –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: No, the student, the student that I mentioned, that I just mentioned, she's from somewhere in, like, the southeast or something like that, maybe – it might be as north as Chicago, but she's not from Minnesota. Um, and then I had another, uh, young lady, in a more advanced communications course, who, she might've been a DACA student, and also, um, was from Chicago. The very first one I had, I think she was from Minnesota, and then there were a couple of them along the way, who might've been from Minnesota but they're – you know, it, it really depends. 'Cause especially with the University of Minnesota, we get, like, we have a reciprocal program with Wisconsin, and so –

Megan Figueroa: Oh.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, if you live in Wisconsin, you get, uh, instate tuition. So we would get a lot of students from, like, the Milwaukee-outside of Chicago kinda area, too, so.

Megan Figueroa: So, I wonder – there's gotta be heritage language speakers of whatever language, um, listening. We talked about what could be done at the college level – what, what – do you have any, like, particular messages to people that feel insecure about language, as someone who was grading papers or interacting with heritage language speakers?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: You know, I think heritage language learners bring so much richness to the classroom. And not that you should be there to be the token, like, cultural ambassador or anything. But usually they have ways of looking at authentic texts and ways of relating to these texts that, when they start talking about it, it kind of, kind of makes the non-heritage speakers rethink the way that they're reading something, they're reading a poem, reading a novel, or watching a movie. Or, you know, when they're hearing, if you're more of a productive heritage speaker and you speak in your, um, your family's dialect or variety, I think it, it also helps benefit everybody around you, to get that input, uh, like, authentic input from someone who doesn't speak, you know, generic newscaster Spanish. Or peninsular Spanish, which is what a lot of, traditionally, a lot of the audio materials have been in.

You know, it's, it's just another perspective, it's another – like, I'm a big proponent of collaboration, and I think every single student has something important to offer to the classroom. And just because you don't know where the accent goes on, you know, the past, past tense or whatever, that doesn't mean you don't have something important to contribute to the class.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah. And also, like, we should always remind ourselves that writing and speaking are very different, and –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Carrie Gillon: Like, if you, you could be, like, an amazing speaker and a terrible writer, and vice-versa. And for me especially –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: – like, I found writing in French easier than speaking, because I had that time to process and remember –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep.

Carrie Gillon: – the rules, and [laughs], and I didn't have to worry as much about the pronunciation.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, and that's the other thing, you know, a heritage speaker, if they feel, uh, insecure about the way they speak or the way they write or, you know, "I don't write as well as, you know, this person next to me," there's something that you do really well that they're jealous of, you know?

Carrie Gillon: Exactly, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Like, your – maybe your pronunciation is, like, really cool and really, you know, sounds really good, and you have, like, a really natural, uh, flow to the way you speak, and it's not really stilted and stuttered. While, you know, that, the way that some language learners' language is, at first, when they're still kind of figuring out that processing thing. You know, there's something that, you know, you're better at. It's like that whole thing when people say, you know, jealousy is useless, because there's always someone better and someone worse than you?

Megan Figueroa: [Laughs] Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs] Yup.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: So, I mean, we all bring our own, uh, uniqueness to the classroom, and, and it's no reason to, you know, feel insecure. Because there's something that you're really awesome at that someone else really sucks at and, you know, they wish they were you. [Laughter]

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, exactly.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Do you – uh, we've talked about one side of the coin. What about the flipside: have you had heritage language speakers that were very insecure about their English?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: [Sighs] No –

Megan Figueroa: Or [crosstalk] just not come out in the classroom 'cause you're teaching Spanish?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, I don't think that really comes out in the, in my classrooms. I think that might come out more in an ESL kind of situation. Um, but, no, I haven't. I mean, I've, I've encountered that outside of the classroom, where someone is bilingual and they're just kind of like, you know, "Ah, my English is not good," and I'm, like, "What are you talking about? I understand everything you're trying to tell me, and you're speaking fluidly, and I – you know, there's no problem, here. Um, I'm not even having to, like, ask you to repeat yourself, [laughs] to, to get at what you're trying to say." You know, so, not really in the classroom, but outside of it, for sure.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, I think a lot of people underestimate just, like, getting your point across as being, like, what language, like, what language is.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: Like, we, we're so obsessed with getting things, quote-unquote, "perfect" –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm?

Megan Figueroa: – that we're, like, "You know that I just understood you," like –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm?

Megan Figueroa: – we're having [crosstalk] conversation and our ideas are going back and forth. Nothing else matters. [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: So, one thing – yeah. One thing I like to tell my students, especially my first-year and second-year students who are, like, "Oh, I can't talk in the classroom, 'cause I don't know how to form a sentence," or whatever. And I'm, like, "Nobody does, except for me, and so that's okay. But also, record yourself speaking English, and write down all of the errors that you make without knowing it." And they're, like, "Holy shit," they do it and, or they think about it or they do it, and they're, like, "Shit, I didn't realize how many bad grammar mistakes I make when I speak English." God, that's – okay, that’s, this is not a problem, then." [Laughs]

Carrie Gillon: Yeah, exactly.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, and guess what, when you sit down and write an e-mail in English, or whatever, [crosstalk] –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: – have time to think it over before you, you know, like –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: It's just different, speaking –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: – and writing are so different, yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: And that's why I never graded people for accuracy when they were speaking in class, because I'm, like, "I just want you to talk. I just want you to talk. I'll give you three points if you're, you know, fully engaged in the class, two points if you are, you know, somewhat engaged, one point if you're sitting there in the corner looking out the window." [Laughter]

Megan Figueroa: Right.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Um, and zero if you're not in class. And so, that gives the students, really, a lot of freedom to participate, in a way that they feel comfortable. And, you know, I knew other professors who graded based on how correct the, you know, Spanish they, their students was using, were using was. And those classes were usually silent. I would walk past the classroom and, like, nobody was talking. But then, I had to shut my door, all the time, because my students were so loud. [Laughter]

Carrie Gillon: That's good.

Megan Figueroa: That's such a good problem to have, though.

Carrie Gillon: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: I know –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – it was really – yeah, I, I really miss teaching, sometimes.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs] Yeah, I sometimes miss it, too.

Megan Figueroa: I know, I was, like, sometimes.

Carrie Gillon: Just not the grading.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: No, not the grading.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. [Laughs] Especially since it's so demoralizing for you, too, if you care about students. It's, like, "Why do I have to – " I don't know, grading is an interesting other problem [laughter] [crosstalk]. I just overhear, like, at coffeeshops, so many professors that are grading for all the wrong things. And who am I to say what wrong is, but I'm, like –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: – "Well, do you really have to take off for that?"

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah –

Megan Figueroa: [Laughs] [Crosstalk]

Carrie Gillon: I would say split, uh, marking off a split infinitive –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, like –

Carrie Gillon: – is actually objectively wrong. [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah –

Megan Figueroa: [Crosstalk]

Carrie Gillon: Or, or, or claiming that the passive is [crosstalk] ungrammatical is subjectively wrong.

Megan Figueroa: Yes, it's the passive.

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Argh, yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. [Laughs] Are there things in Spanish like that, too?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, I, I struggle with that a lot, because, you know, I'm supposed to be teaching them this artificial academic register. And so, like, yes, I'm supposed to be doing the copyediting of their papers, but I also wanna know what their ideas are like. So, I came up with a rubric that was, um, part of it was ideas, and organization of ideas, and elaboration of ideas and sources and things like that. And then, a smaller part of it was, you know, grammar stuff. And, so, if, if I would've been fulltime somewhere with a lot of support, I would've had multiple drafts where they could correct that stuff, but –

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: I wonder, do you have any feelings or thoughts or experience with younger kids? Because this seems to be a really big – I, I'm gonna just call it a fuckin' problem, right now, where, where we're not doing right by kids that come into our K-12, that speak Spanish at home, that are – I mean, they're labeled so many things, and sometimes it's "heritage language learner." Um, is there – you – how do you – any experience – have you read any of the stuff that's happening [crosstalk]?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: I have many feelings, and some of them are shouty, about –

Megan Figueroa: [Laughs] [Crosstalk]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – how we treat those kids. Um, I think that the expectation that people should come – okay, first of all, let me back up a little bit. This whole, like, hysteria about, "Oh, my god, whatever language is gonna take over the country, and no one will speak English, anymore," is such bullshit. Because if you go to the Pew Research Center, they did research on heritage languages, like, all of them – Tagalog, Chinese, Mandarin, uh, Spanish, whatever. By the third generation, these people aren't speaking their language, anymore.

Carrie Gillon: Exactly.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: So, it's, like, totally unfounded, bullshit, whatever, and, um –

Carrie Gillon: Yep.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: So, then we have these administrators who think that – and people who are providing the funding for courses and programs and stuff, who think, "Oh, well, you have an ESL class. You can have people from any other – any old language come in and mishmash together to learn English, and they will do it in two years," or four years, or whatever the case may be. And that's just not – that's not tenable, that's not – you don't necessarily have people who are ready to be integrated into English-only classrooms, after that. And it just, it frustrates the shit out of me, because these kids deserve better, they deserve more, and then you wonder why they might be falling behind? Because they're stuck in a classroom where they don't necessarily – they're not, necessarily, able to thrive the way they would if they had support in their native language.

And it's just, oh, it's just so frustrating. There's, uh, dual immersion programs, and I think – Minnesota is actually the leader in dual education, in dual language education. We have the most programs of anybody in the United States, um, I think, in front of California. Um, so we have dual immersion in Korean, uh, German, French, Spanish, Chinese, um, and there might be Hmong, and there might also be, uh, like, Aramaic or other Somali languages, as well. Uh, but these programs are excellent, because you get these kids who speak, you know, whatever language as their first language or home language, and you get, um, American students or United States students who don't speak this language, and you put them together in the first grade.

And they are in 100 percent, you know, the other language, for, like, the first four years, or whatever. And then they start to gradually switch over to all-English, so by the time they graduate in 8th grade, they're 100 percent English, but they still have that other language, too. So, I think those programs are super helpful, and I know that some of my colleagues at the U of M in the, um, Carla Institute, which is the Center for – I can't remember, it's been so long. But, um, they do a lot of work on immersion studies, and they found that the, the kids, the native or heritage speakers who start out in dual immersion end up doing better in high school and college, um, when they have that support.

Megan Figueroa: Well, I'm thinking, like, you see them when they're in college, I imagine, um, you're gonna see kids that aren't as insecure.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: Like, how important is that – like, I mean, yeah, okay, they got some more language skills that look a little bit different than what they might look like at home, and they had, like –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm?

Megan Figueroa: – all this, like, I don't know, like, academic support in the school, but that all leads to – the, I think the most important thing is not feeling fuckin' insecure –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep.

Megan Figueroa: – [laughs] about the language you came with.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep.

Megan Figueroa: And that's, that's why I, I was interested about younger kids is because you are seeing them later –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep.

Megan Figueroa: – and the foundation for how they feel is set so young.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah, very young.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep, because they, they start out seeing their language as being valid and valued and important, and something that you do academic work in, and, you know, your teachers all speak it and your administrators all speak it, and –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, exactly. And, uh, when we talked to Alberto Rios, the poet, um, about his experience with Spanish and English, he was talking about going to school and how, like, they would make him feel like Spanish was bad. And then you, like, put this label on your mom – on – I think it was –

Carrie Gillon: It was his dad.

Megan Figueroa: Oh, his dad, his dad.

Carrie Gillon: His, his, his mom was English.

Megan Figueroa: His mom was English, yeah – on his dad, that he's bad. Like, it, it just [crosstalk] kid.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, that judgement, yep, that judgement come, can come from your parents, it can come from your school, it can come from your friends, it can come from TV, it can come from politicians, it can come from anywhere, or all of those places. And it is traumatizing –

Megan Figueroa: It is, and –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – and it's bad for development.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: I was thinking, just, like, thinking about child development, they are doing the best they can with the information they were given –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm?

Megan Figueroa: – and they're trying to reconcile these things that they're, this information they're given. And this is what's coming out, bad – that Spanish equals bad, family [crosstalk] –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Unless you're white.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, right, exactly.

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Exactly, it's true.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Because there is no stigma around white kids taking a foreign language from beginning, or going to dual immersion, or whatever, there's no stigma.

Megan Figueroa: I was gonna say, dual immersion is going – like, the way that dual immersion is becoming popularized is because white families are seeing the benefit.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep.

Megan Figueroa: And it's one of those other things where I'm, like, "Listen to my vocal fry, and you adjust to it." It's kinda like, "Shit, we should want dual immersion." Because we have these kids that aren't English speakers, but it was only until we realized the benefit for [crosstalk] –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: All children, yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Which means white.

Carrie Gillon: And probably not just white. Probably, like –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: – upper-middle-class. 'Cause this is the –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: – same thing that happens in Canada, with the French – you know, there's no, like, stigma around, like, the type of people who speak French, because we're all white –

Megan Figueroa: Right.

Carrie Gillon: – well, well, you know –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep.

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs] It's more complicated than that, but, you know. Um –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep.

Carrie Gillon: But, but, but, um, people who put their kids in French immersion tend to be upper-middle-class, and so –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah, there's [crosstalk] –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: – fanciness associated with it.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: And that's what I really appreciate about Minnesota's immersion programs is that a lot of them are public.

Megan Figueroa: [Crosstalk]

Carrie Gillon: Well, they're public in Canada, too, but –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, [crosstalk].

Carrie Gillon: – there's still –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: – it's self – it's like self-segregating.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, that's true, that's true. But it is accessible to – I mean, there are some charter and private ones, but there are really good public ones that are available to anyone who is interested in that. But you're right, it, it tends to be middle-, upper-class, because they're the ones who read the research and are, like, "Oh, good for development, bla bla bla."

Carrie Gillon: Exactly, exactly.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. Well, English or – um, Arizona has the law – shit, was it 300 – 200 – where it's, "English must be taught in English." So it's illegal to have anything but – what do we have, like – I don't know – it's basically sink or swim is what we have in Arizona. I'm real excited, though, Arizona has an actual bilingual speech language pathologist, who's gonna be our new superintendent of schools, who really, really cares about bilingualism.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: That's great.

Megan Figueroa: So I'm hoping that we're gonna see something good happen. I think that one of the main things that I, when I was talk, um, when I knew that we were gonna talk about heritage languages, which made me really excited – and also, I'm, like, "Oh, no, we're gonna talk about so many things that are so disturbing" – um, but I want a lot of people to know that it does start so young. Like, you know, and that we may, you know, if we're teaching in college level, or even if it's just, like, our peers, there may be some – like, there are a lot of complicated feelings about the language that we –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: – languages we have, and –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: I mean, if you dive into the media and all of the conversations among Latinx communities in the United States, there's all this, like, "If you speak Spanish, are you really Latinx?" you know.

Megan Figueroa: [Crosstalk]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Or if you don't speak it – excuse me.

Megan Figueroa: Right, [crosstalk].

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: You know, so, like, there are all these, these nuances and complications around whether, you know, you are actually part of your cultural group, if you don't speak the language. So –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, it's like for mezcla or some –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah –

Megan Figueroa: – like, some of these media that I, like, you know, follow all the time, and I know what they're doing, like, they're starting a conversation, but I literally cry when I – like, I don't know why I play them –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: – because they're really mean. [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Carrie Gillon: Really?

Megan Figueroa: Some – yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: And, yeah, so you'll get, even from inside your –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – cultural group –

Megan Figueroa: It might be worse. [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: It, uh, I think so.

Megan Figueroa: In some ways, it's worse, yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: I think – especially when it comes, like, from your parents or your family or whatever, like –

Megan Figueroa: Yes, that's terrible.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – "Oh, you don't speak Spanish," or, "You don't speak whatever. You're not really – " whatever, you know? It, it's, it's very hurtful for kids. And then, if they go to school and their teacher's, like, "You don't speak good Spanish," then that, like, compounds on that pain that they're already feeling because they feel rejected by their community. But you wanna know something really interesting. So, um, just to prove that, you know, Spanish speakers aren't a monolith. Like, in Cuba, or, uh, Cuban Spanish in Miami, like, there is Spanish everywhere, there are Spanish –

Carrie Gillon: Oh, yeah.

Megan Figueroa: [Crosstalk], yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – programs in schools. But most of the, the Cuban people that came and established all that were white.

Carrie Gillon: Yep, exactly. [Laughs] Exactly.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: But, like, in the places where most of the Spanish speakers are brown or not white, then you have a lot more of these, like, severe, "You don't speak Spanish in the home. You don't speak Spanish in the school."

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: That's a really good point.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: "Your Spanish is terrible," you know.

Megan Figueroa: [Crosstalk]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: But when it's, like, the doctors and lawyers who are refugees from Cuba speaking it, "Oh, yeah, let's set up, you know, schools, and newspapers, and radio programs, and TV programs, and everybody – " you know, so.

Carrie Gillon: Yep, absolutely.

Megan Figueroa: Absolutely.

Carrie Gillon: Uh, god, I, I –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: I mean, every time we come, we, we bump against this – well, not every time – all – it's a lot of times we bump up against this.

Megan Figueroa: [Laughs]

Carrie Gillon: But it just makes me so fucking upset how racist –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm?

Carrie Gillon: – both my country and the United States are. [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, yeah. I mean – yes.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: And what sucks is that it's not overt racism; it's, like, really subtle, 'cause it's not something –

Carrie Gillon: It can be, yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, but, I mean, like, you know, if you're, if you're telling your kid, "Oh, your Spanish isn't good," it's not like you're saying – or if you're a teacher and saying, "Your Spanish isn't good," it's not like you're saying, you know, "I don't like brown people," necessarily, 'cause maybe they don't think they're being racist. They are, but they don't think they are.

Carrie Gillon: Right. Or they think –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: You know, it's not –

Carrie Gillon: – they're talking about, about, about it because they, like, really love Spanish, and so they think they're, like –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Right –

Carrie Gillon: – uh, uh, you know, [crosstalk].

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – "Oh, the Spanish from Spain is beautiful, and it's the right –

Megan Figueroa: Yes.

Carrie Gillon: Exactly [crosstalk] comes down to. [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – "right one, because the, the Real Academia, the Real Academia is the one –

Carrie Gillon: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – "that sets all the rules." And, uh, you know, okay, but that's colonialist and –

Carrie Gillon: One hundred percent.

Megan Figueroa: Do you get a sense – do you guys sense in, uh, in your heritage language, uh, classes, uh, how do the students feel about Spanglish?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: So, in my language classes, it didn't come up a lot. In linguistics classes, uh, we actually had a chapter on it, or a section on it, on – we didn't call it Spanglish, we called it, like, code switching. So there's, um, the, like, super – I hate this word – seminal article on, uh, code switching, from Otheguy, Ricardo Otheguy, and, um, some other people that I can't remember right now, 'cause it's been, like, three years since I've taught that class. Um, but, so, you know, usually, people are, like, "Oh, that just means you don't speak either language very well," and I'm, like, "Uh, actually, not." Um, so, you know, using that article, we would teach that at the end of the semester, and, and they would be, like, "Oh, shit, it's actually, you know, regulated, and, like, you know, it has rules and, you know, grammatical barriers when you can do it, boundaries, and – " you know.

So, um, and then, we would have student – I would have the students – 'cause I had people write, like, a research proposal, so they would do everything except for, you know, actually carry out the study, and then do the analysis. Because I couldn't get IRB approval 'cause I was a grad student, and also, we didn't have time.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah, no, it takes a long time.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, they would read all of the, the literature on code switching, and, you know, they would – they were super into it, afterwards, and they thought it was super cool. Um, and then, in – let's see – I taught a composition and communication class, which is basically like the bridge course between languages and the major. Where you learn how to write more longform and all that sort of thing, and consume different kinds of narratives, and write in different genres. And we did have a couple of, like, poetry or, um, literature pieces that dealt with, uh, switching languages. And, you know, usually, they would have, you know, if not neutral, maybe slightly negative, um, attitude toward it.

And this is – I'm talking about students in general, 'cause I don't – I didn't have enough of a sample size of heritage speakers to kind of determine, like, "This is what they think writ large." Um, but they, they would, you know, they ended up thinking it was really cool, because they could see how it was used stylistically, and for emphasis or for some other effect in the writing, so.

Megan Figueroa: Well, when I think of, um, heritage language, I just, like, I want one of the things that they know about, when they switch between languages, is that it takes so much skill.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, that's what – I, I always told my students, I'm, like, "If you can code switch fluently, that's a very sophisticated use of both languages and – "

Megan Figueroa: Oh, so sophisticated.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: So, you know, they were usually pretty surprised to hear that. And then, um, I think – I had some videos of someone code switching, um, that I would play in my linguistics classes, that people thought were really fun, so. But I never really encountered, like, "Oh, people who do that are stupid or, you know, not good at – " semilingual or, you know, however they – negative thing they wanna call it.

Megan Figueroa: That's good. It's, it's terrible, but that's what's happening in the kids' literature.

Carrie Gillon: That's bad.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yuck.

Carrie Gillon: That's really bad.

Megan Figueroa: One of the first articles I was given was, by my advisor was, like, "Read this [laughs] and tell me why it's wrong." Um, but it's kind of an older thing and saying, like, well, they come to start at five years old or whatever, and they're, they 're not completely good at Spanish, and then their English is, you know, like, kind of developing. So, like, they have, like, no language; they're, like, in this, like, limbo or, like –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Oh, gross.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, it's not good.

Carrie Gillon: You know how unlikely it is for someone to not have any language? Like, oh, my god. [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Ugh.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: It’s, unless they're, like, locked away in a, an attic or something –

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Right.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – and never have any interaction with anything –

Megan Figueroa: The forbidden experiment?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Or, you know, I mean, we're not talking about, like, language disability or anything, um –

Carrie Gillon: No, no, no.

Megan Figueroa: Right? You have language. Um –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: You do, yeah.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, yeah, and, and this gets more complicated with sign, as well.

Carrie Gillon: But you just have a, maybe a slightly different version of whatever it is that you're doing, but that's – we all do.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Right.

Carrie Gillon: Like, aaahhh.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: So, I guess I've heard kind of, uh, critiques along those lines, of the dual immersion program, so that people were, like, "No, English-only."

Carrie Gillon: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: Yes.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Um, they say, "Oh, well, you know, they're not gonna be as good at either language, they're just gonna suck at both of them."

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: And it's, like, yeah, sometimes there are delays –

Carrie Gillon: Yes, for sure.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: – but they more than catch up with their peers, by a certain level. Like, by, by high school or, like, middle high school, they're usually at or beyond their peers.

Carrie Gillon: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: And it's not a concept delay, right? You're still gonna have the concepts –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: – you just might only have the words in one language. Well, I could talk about this, like, for hours, um –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: I know, me, too.

Megan Figueroa: And we probably shouldn't, because [laughter] we want the podcast listeners to listen and not lose us. But, no, I think this is really, really good and really interesting. Do you feel like there's anything that we missed, that's really important to know about heritage language, um, speakers?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: I think we hit on everything. I think that we need to stop valuing bilingualism in white kids and not valuing it in kids of color. I think that teachers need to take a sociolinguistics class and understand language variation, before they get to teach it. I think that heritage language learners should be encouraged to learn, in whatever way they want to, their home language, if they want to. And be encouraged to use it however they feel comfortable using it. And I really wish that we had more funding for, like, language arts-style classes for heritage language learners, because they do learn slightly differently than people learning a second language.

Megan Figueroa: And when you say language art, you're kind of like meaning putting the culture in there, too, like, let's have cultural lessons, right?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, so, like, how we do – in, in the United States, how we do language arts classes in English should be how we do it for heritage speakers, too. Because, you know, that, that's the part where they're getting, like, cultural readings, and, you know, movies, and all these other things that help support that language. 'Cause we know that language is tied to culture; it's not – it doesn't exist in a vacuum. And, you know, people who speak a language at home or, or hear a language at home have a different cultural context than someone who's going to school to learn it and has, have never experienced it before, outside of their classroom.

Carrie Gillon: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, and it wouldn't fuckin' hurt so much if I, like, just didn't know Spanish, if it weren't so tied to culture, you know. Like, and, like, this kind of cultural connection I feel like I'm missing because there are a lot of Latino people that are saying –

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: – I am missing something very important.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: And I think that, I think that it's important to educate parents, too, about the fact that, you know, it's okay that they maybe don't speak as well as you do, or, you know, are trying. Let's just encourage them to be supportive instead of, like, "Well, I don't have time to listen to you struggle through this, you know, I don't understand what you're trying to say to me."

Carrie Gillon: And also, kids are gonna speak differently than you do, always.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, yeah.

Megan Figueroa: [Laughs] Yes, they are.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Stop saying, "Get off my lawn," like, [laughter] [crosstalk] the kids will be all right.

Megan Figueroa: Say, "Get on my lawn," at least to your own kids.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: This linguistic landscape. [Laughter] Um –

Carrie Gillon: All right, well, that was really great.

Megan Figueroa: Very cool.

Carrie Gillon: Thank you so much, Abby.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, thank you so much, Abby.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, super fun.

Megan Figueroa: And, as always, don't be an asshole – can you say it in Spanish for us?

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Uh, no seas pendejo?

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs]

Megan Figueroa: Yes, that's a beautiful [crosstalk].

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Or, or, for those, uh, in Spain, no seas gilipollas.

Carrie Gillon: Oh –

Megan Figueroa: Oh, I've never heard that, okay.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Carrie Gillon: Nice, nice.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Mm-hmm.

Megan Figueroa: Very cool. Yeah, just don't be an asshole.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yeah, don't be an asshole.

Carrie Gillon: So I think that's three different versions we've gotten in Spanish, now.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, [crosstalk].

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Wait, what was the third one?

Carrie Gillon: It was the Argentinian version, so, I can't –

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Oh, yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah.

Carrie Gillon: [Laughs]

Dr. Abby Bajuniemi: Yep.

Megan Figueroa: Alrighty. [Laughs]

Carrie Gillon: Beautiful, all right, bye. [Laughs]

[Music playing]

The Vocal Fries Podcast is produced by Chris Ayers for Halftone Audio. Theme music by Nick Granum. You can find us on Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, at Vocal Fries Pod. You can e-mail us at [email protected].

[End of Audio]

#transcript #bilingualism #podcast #linguistics #language #English #Spanish #freebies #linguistic discrimination #language education #sociolinguistics

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dillion-langdon · 5 years

Text

I Fell out of Heaven to be with You in Hell Part 2

Sub!Michael x Reader

Summary: Reader experiences traumatic flashbacks of Michael’s past when they are intimate, so they consult his Ms. Mead. Little bits of humour in the beginning. The sex starts closer to the middle if you just wanna skip to that part. lol

First part can be found here.

Warnings: sub!Michael x Reader, young!Michael, fem!reader, smut, fingering, sexual intercourse, mention of post traumatic stress, mention of disassociation, talk of Christianity and demons, dirty talk, sexual tension, humour, fluff.

Word count: 4K.

Side note: I based the sex part off of my own personal experiences with boyfriends(two that is) I was in love with. Even the post traumatic stress part. My first boyfriend had an episode in the middle of us doing it and it really sucked... Anyways! *sigh* Can you tell I’ve been single for far too long? Cause I can lmao *I need help*

________________________________________________________

One late night, in your room, you and Michael were in a pretty heavy make out session, when all of a sudden you were seeing flashes of a little blonde boy inside of your head. He was holding a bloodied, mangled cat and he was crying. An older lady, you assumed who was Constance, was scolding him but you couldn’t make out what she was saying. As if on cue, Michael abruptly pulled away, eyes wide with fear and shoulders tensed.

“I-I’m s-s-sorry! I didn’t know that was inside of me.”

You gaped. This never really happened before, you seeing intimate, hidden memories of his past. Memories he chose to bury deep. Memories he had long forgotten. You remember him telling you once, how his childhood was a blur, how it was too painful for him to deal with and how he somehow forced himself to forget most of it. This broke your heart. You loved Michael so much and couldn’t bare to imagine him in that much pain where he basically had to disassociate with it.

“Baby, it’s okay,” you soothed. You caressed the side of his face and lovingly took his hand into yours. It easily engulfed yours and you gave it a reassuring, affectionate squeeze. His shoulders relaxed.

“Why is this happening to me, (Y/N)?”

You paused. Ever since you two became sexually involved—which was months after you guys started dating, you would see instances of him when he was younger. They happened abrupt enough where you could only see flashes of his face and that was it. Never like this. This is was a full on scene and this was the first time you saw someone else, and Constance above all.

“Mmm, maybe it’s because—you know, that we’re intimate now?” You wondered out loud.

“But I don’t wanna remember those things,” he weakly spoke. His eyes started to water and his bottom lip quivered. Your heart sank. You scooted closer to him and wrapped both of your arms tightly around Michael, right away he buried his head into the crook of your neck and started to lightly sob. His body shaking against yours. You could feel his pain. It was too overwhelming. All you could do was to hold him close and tight. And you never wanted to let go. You absolutely hated seeing this beautiful young man of yours being rendered into a hopeless, broken little boy.

“Please make it stop,” his voice was muffled by your neck and it hitched as he sobbed harder. You felt so utterly helpless. He was in ruin.

“Shhh, it’s okay, Michael,” you kissed the top of his head and started to gently rock him back and forth. “We’re gonna figure this out, okay?” You felt his long arms hug you harder, as if he was holding onto you for dear life.

“I love you, (Y/N),” he was still sobbing into your neck, his tears soaking your sweater. You had to figure this out, whatever it took.

The next morning, the both of you sat nervously at Miriam’s kitchen table. Despite breakfast being his favourite, strawberry French toast, Michael didn’t touch his food. He coyishly played with his fork, knowing that he had to talk about something embarrassing with the one person he considered the closest thing to a mother.

Miriam sat down across the table and quizzically looked from you to Michael, who was clearly not scarfing his food down like usual. “What’s the matter? You love French toast, more than my first husband did.”

You apprehensively put your arms on the table and started playing with your fingers, not knowing where to start.

“Uh, we sort of have a problem...” you spoke hesitantly.

Miriam’s eyes bulged and she exclaimed, “You’re not pregnant, are you?”

“What! No!” You and Michael both shouted in unison, quick to defend the obvious. You turned to Michael and he looked scared shitless. His face was pink. Clearly his dear Ms. Mead must of found out about the two of you having sex.

“Oh, dear Dark Lord!” she rolled her eyes and sighed heavily with relief, hand on chest in exasperation. “I know there’s supposed to be a backup, but that’s not for years, not until after you won the witches—”

“We keep seeing flashes of my past,” Michael cut her off. You could see him shifting in his seat, not wanting to say exactly how and when these flashes occurred. You took notice and cleared your throat.

“When we… er, are together-together,” you did air quotes, not wanting to say the dirty word in front of her. After all, she was your close friend and you were technically banging her adopted son. “We end up seeing memories of his childhood, the ones he forgot about...” You darted your eyes back down to your hands, closely examining the dark nail polish that was chipped.

Miriam was quiet. This made you nervous so you quickly looked up and she was deep in thought. She suddenly stood and walked around the table to her altar. You could hear books and trinkets being shuffled around until you heard what sounded like a heavy thud and something hefty being pulled out from underneath a heavier object. You turned and saw her holding a large, threadbare book that was titled in Latin. You only spoke English so you had no idea in hell what she was reading. She flipped through a few pages until she came across something that made her go, “Aha!”

Michael grabbed your hand under the table and squeezed hard, you gave him a reassuring look, hoping his Ms. Mead found the answer.

After she was reading, she explained how is father wanted him to remember his past. How it would fuel his powers and make him stronger, and the only way this were to happen was by being with you. When she said that you blushed. You knew Michael was special, but you? What’s so special about you?

She continued on about some Christian mumbo-jumbo that you had trouble following, but what you could get out of it, was that somehow you were the incarnation of Lilith or Awan or one of those demonesses; you were put here on Earth to shepherd Michael, the Antichrist towards full reign and terror of the Apocalypse.

You were stunned into silence. Michael was still holding your hand, albeit they were sweaty, he still held on tight. With the book still in hand, Miriam made her way back around the table and took a seat. Her head turned from you to Michael, then back to you, awaiting a response. She slapped her hands down on the table, startling you both.

“Well, I think that solves that there kiddos.”

Still nothing. Just shock.

Miriam heaved her chest, “C’mon, it’s not like I didn’t know what was going on!” Your cheeks flushed harder. “It was bound to happen, I just wasn’t sure when.” She laughed and you could feel Michael’s horror.

His mouth fell open, and shaking his head, he quickly said, “It’s not like that,” he suddenly stood up and you were forcefully yanked out of your seat as Michael still had a Terminator grip on your hand and you awkwardly stood up, trying to find your balance. “We love each other.” That last bit came out louder than he intended and his voice cracked mid-sentence.

You and Michael loved each other. You just never told anyone.

Miriam’s whole face beamed with joy at those words and before you could react she was hugging you both, her one hand in Michael’s hair as she playfully ruffled it. This was literally the most awkward sex conversation you ever had. You normally pride yourself on being comfortable with your promiscuity and sharing details with others, but this, this was weird and uncomfortable.

As soon as Miriam let go of the overly enthusiastic embrace, she grabbed her coffee mug and left the room, humming to herself. You and Michael—with his now messy hair, just stood there, gaping at each other. What the hell just happened?

It wasn’t until later that Miriam mentioned to you over coffee, how she found a condom pack in Michael’s jeans one day when she was doing laundry and how it made her smile. You spat out your coffee.

What the fuck.

You had to gently put it to her how yes, you two are close friends but discussing you and Michael’s sex life was off the table. She just laughed at this and said, it’s not like she bore him when he was a child. You had to sigh and just remind yourself to be, very, very vague about these things around her. The last thing you wanted was to picture Miriam standing in the corner of the room as you and Michael went at it. The thought of this made you shudder in horror. Why did you guys have to go to her? Why couldn’t you just pick one of the other Cardinals at the Church for advice? Ugh.

Unfortunately, this whole incident put sex off the table for a few days.

A few nights have passed and Michael was over watching Netflix with you. He was laying on the couch with his head in your lap and his hand conveniently resting on your thigh. You guys were watching The Omen 3, Michael had insisted on it. He was eager to devour every bit of pop culture that detained any reference to the Antichrist. You thought this was so adorable. He also insisted you do the same, after all, you were put on this earth to solely serve him. This gave you all sorts of warm fuzzies.

He was the Dark Prince and you were his companion. His partner in crime, as cheesy as it sounds.

And your dark prince was being mischievous. As he was slowly rubbing his hand on your thigh, it was gradually getting closer, and closer to in between your legs. You had no intention of stopping him, as this little abstinence period had you craving him more than ever. A dull ache had grown down there and you could feel your panties getting damp.

His pace was torturous so you moved his hand with yours up into the spot where you desperately wanted to be touched. With his head still facing the TV, he smiled.

“You’re such a little shit,” you teased and this only caused his smile to broaden.

You slightly parted your legs to make room for his large hand and he eagerly stroked you, lightly grazing the fabric of your underwear with his fingers. You tilted your head back and closed your eyes, stifling a moan. You swore you could just cum right then and there just by his simplest touch.

Michael continued to gently caress your heat, feeling it get hotter and more moist with each delicate stroke. He was reveling in this. Your eyes scanned his body and you could see a thick bulge form in his black jeans. You ran your fingers through his hair and tugged. He was so good to you.

He suddenly stopped and you pouted. His head turned up towards you and with a breathy voice he said, “Take off your panties.”

While still sitting down, you hitched up your skirt and slide them off in one fluid motion, not wanting to waste any time. Michael sat up and just as they were off, he scooted himself next to you and his hand was back on your thigh. His soft, cushiony lips crashed into yours and it was like the first time all over again.

The same zap of electricity washed over your body, and you could literally feel the chemicals inside of your head crashing in waves. It was ethereal.

You pulled away slightly, your parted lips grazing his as the heat radiated between you. Catching each other’s breath in your own, you hovered your lips over his, taking him in. You let a hand rest on his upper arm, feeling how long and lean it was, how the veins seemed to protrude. It never ceased to amaze you just how hot Michael was.

“You’re so fucking beautiful,” Michael breathed. This sent shivers down your spine. He always made sure to never let you forget just how beautiful and hot he thought you were.

You moaned at those words and sank your lips into his in a passionate exchange. His hand roughly squeezed your thigh, marveling at your softness. He started to stroke your leg, inching closer to that certain spot. All of a sudden you could feel his fingers slide delicately in between your folds, revering in your hot wetness. You let out a long moan into his mouth. Michael was always so eager to please you. When the two of you first started having sex, he was so eager it was almost aggressive. You had to stop and chide him, telling him to slow down and how his eagerness was hurting you. You had to teach him, which was expected since you were his first (and by the sounds of it, his last), how to pleasure you properly. He was a fast learner . His eyes would go big and hungry like, earnestly drinking up every ounce of criticism you offered.

Now he was such a good boy to you, you didn’t even have to tell him. Also mind you, he started to develop his telepathy around this time so he was obviously using that to his advantage. You didn’t mind this, since it served you well. You’ve had a number of sexual partners in the past, but they all paled in comparison to Michael.

Michael was phenomenal in bed and partly because you were madly in love with each other. You knew that being in love always amplified sex to a whole new level. You’ve been in love a couple of times, but never like this. Michael was your twin flame. He was your person.

The kissing started to become more wet and sloppy, and fast as he quickened the pace down below with his fingers. He was fondling your clit and you could feel your arousal heightening. Not wanting to climax so soon, you put your hand over his to stop him and pulled your face away.

His mouth was still parted, his lips slick with saliva, red and swollen with lust. He slowly opened his eyes and they were so dilated they almost looked black. Without saying a word to each other, you both went upstairs. You took his hand and guided him to your room. All the lights were off except for a string of pink Halloween lights that strung above your bed. You laid your hand on his chest and softly pushed him onto the mattress. He moved to where he was sitting with his back against the headboard. He knew too well that this was your favourite position.

You suddenly straddled his lap, lowering yourself onto his still clothed erection. A pulse of energy shot between your legs and up into your core. You aggressively moaned and you could feel his whole body shudder with pleasure. Michael wrapped his strong arms around your waist and up around your shoulders, greedily burrowing his face into your chest. You gently rocked your hips and you could feel him sigh with ecstasy into you.

Arching your back, you pressed yourself deeper into him, letting his hard length stroke you through his jeans. His breathing hitched. The friction was making you so wet, you could feel the fabric of his pants become soaked with your juices. Michael gently lifted your sweater above your head and removed it, leaving you only in a thin t-shirt. He nipped at your breasts through the fabric and the tender area around your nipples, eliciting a cry of pleasure from you. Your hands found his hair and you affectionately pulled on his curls, letting him know how good of a job he was doing. He softly growled, you were all his and he wanted nothing more than to be suffocated by you.

In between nibbles he would look up towards you for approval and you would reward him with a deep, lustful kiss, your hips still humping him with an intoxicating pace. You could feel his member start to twitch. You stopped and removed the last upper article of clothing, exposing your tender breasts to him. He aggressively cupped them with his mouth, obscenely moaning with hunger for you.

The only sounds in the room was of the bed squeaking and two of you panting heavily, with the occasional sound of a wet, sloppy kiss.

You sunk your lips into Michael’s when all of a sudden you saw a flash of red, then you saw a beautiful, older lady—sprawled lifelessly on a couch, with a scotch glass loosely in her hand and a cigarette in the other. Then you saw what looked like Michael, but he was dressed much differently, he wore khakis and a colourful striped shirt. He was holding the older lady and crying for her to come back, how he was sorry. Constance?

You stopped and opened your eyes. Michael’s eyes were still closed and tears were spilling down. He didn’t open them and with such vigor that you never experienced with him before, he pulled you in closely. He kissed you with such tenderness it made your head start swimming again with chemicals. You felt this pain but you also felt this enormous gratitude he had for you. Even though he was suppose to be the antichrist, the amount of incredible warmth and love that was radiating out of him was absolutely divine.

Michael never kissed you like this before. No one ever kissed you like this before. It was on such a different level, the gulf between you and reality was palpable. You felt like your whole being was levitating into the heavens and Michael was right there with you. Or more like hell, if you may.

“Thank you,” he whimpered into your lips, his voice sounded different. It was needy and wounded and grateful all at the same time. You could feel his body shaking with emotion. Despite all of this, neither of you wanted to stop. You and Michael were too far gone and wrapped up in the moment.

Still having your legs around Michael, he shifted your bodies where he was laying on top of you in the missionary position. Your second favourite position.

In between heated kisses, Michael removed his shirt. You slid a hand down his smooth chest, across his abdomen and onto his now soaking wet jeans. Despite the emotional turmoil, he was still rock hard. You squeezed the shaft of his member through his pants and his jaw slackened as a loud moan erupted from him. He buried his face into the side of your neck and started softly gnawing on your skin, leaving the faintest of bruises. He nipped and kissed his way up to your ear, where he nibbled the earlobe. You squirmed under him. He knew all of your weak spots down to a T. You could loudly hear his heady breath in your ear and it only made you want him more. You couldn’t take it.

“I want you inside of me, Michael,” you exhaled. With that he gave you a long, profound kiss before he slid off his jeans and boxer briefs. His erection sprung out and was drenched in a combination of your wetness and his pre-ejaculate. He dug into his jeans and pulled out a condom. Without breaking eye contact with you, he slipped it on. He lined himself up at your sultry, swollen entrance, gently pressing into your opening just the way you like it. Your head fell back onto the bed, mouth opening and closing. Michael cradled your head in his arm and pressed his forehead into yours. While looking deep into yours, his eyes bore those same holes as they did when you first met him, down right into your soul. His hips bucked forward and he slid into you, filling you right up with a burst of sensation.

“Michael!” You loudly gasped, no matter how many times he entered you, you were always taken aback by the severe amount of pleasure and how he seemed to fill you up just perfectly. As if you were made for each other. Two puzzle pieces that fit perfectly together.

With unwavering eye contact, he slowly pumped himself into you, making sure to feel every inch of your innermost walls. He began to pant and whine with each thrust. Your hands wrapped around his smooth, soft back. You could feel how his body temperature was rising. Sweat slicked his hairline and a bead of moisture fell onto your face. You opened your mouth, letting yourself taste him. The taste and smell of his pheromones inebriating you.

The tip of him hit your cervix and you yelped with delight, your fingernails digging into his porcelain skin. You dragged them down his back, making sure to leave scratches. Michael arched his back and obscenely groaned. He loved it when you marked him, it always gave him loving reminders how he belonged to you.

Michael pressed his mouth into the side of your face and panted, his voice hitched with ecstasy, “Can I go faster, baby?” You nodded and as he quickened his pace, you let your hands slide down to his ass and you clutched his cheeks, wanting to feel his hips buck in and out of you with each push.

Your bodies were entangled with each other in perfect harmony. Each breath, each kiss, each stroke of his penis sent you closer over the edge. Now all you could hear were the wet, pounding sounds of your bodies, laboured breathing, and the smell of each other’s sweat. His moans turned into blissful whines as he was nearing his climax. There was not a sweeter sound in the world.

“You’re such good boy, Michael. I want you to cum for me,” you exhaled. Your voice heavy with lust.

Just as you spoke those words, your whole body tensed and your vision blurred, you were seeing stars. Your whole body was on fire and you could feel this thunderous wave of energy course through your being. You tightly wrapped your legs around Michael and squeezed your inner, spongy walls around him. Feeling this enormous amount of energy being released from your core and into Michael, your orgasm was so intense, not a sound was to be heard, despite having your mouth wide opened. All you could do was hold onto Michael and ride out this high with the man you love.

Right as he felt you clench around his length, Michael’s jaw slackened and his lips parted further, making a perfect O. He buried his face into the crook of your neck and you could feel the vibration of his groans inside of your body. Both your bodies tensed with rapid concessions of pleasure.

“(Y/N),” he whined as the last wave of his orgasm washed over him. He went limp in your arms and rested his face on your chest. Both of you panting and trying to catch your breath. You could feel his heartbeat race a mile a minute through his chest, like gears of a clock. You ran his hands through his soaking wet curls and kissed his damp forehead.

“That was incredible!” Michael gasped after he finally caught his breath. His arms were loosely wrapped around you and he just basked in the glory that was you.

After several silent minutes of lying in a tangled mess of sweaty limbs and crumpled sheets, the two of you properly got under the covers for the night. Michael was worn out and had his back to you, already fast asleep and snoring softly. Usually he never got this tired after sex, but considering the traumatic recollection of the night, him crashing out completely was a given. You snuggled up to him, wrapping an arm tenderly over his waist. You kissed his shoulder.

With a smile you said, “Goodnight, my antichrist.”

#michael langdon #michael langdon smut #sub!michael #young!michael #fem!reader #sub!michael x reader #smut #american horror story #ahs smut #michael langdon imagine #cody fern #michael langdon fanfiction #i fell out of heaven to be with you in hell

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silent-writer83 · 5 years

Text

Let’s Do It Baby, I Know The Law

”Summary: Successful in saving Iris, there are some unforeseen costs. So, with little time left, you decide to live it up consequences be damned. When Savitar comes for you, you’ve got a few choice words in mind for him.

A/N: Tbh I just wanted to write the reader drunkenly mouthing off to Savitar. If you know what this quote is from, ily.

Changing the timeline always came at a cost, you all knew that. Hell, if you didn’t by now then you were just being purposefully ignorant. What no one expected, no matter how many times they toyed with it, was the cost they would be paying. Saving Iris was the goal, its what everyone focused so heavily on that they didn’t think twice about rearranging events. They didn’t think about the little things they were tweaking and the effect that it would have on another’s life. They didn’t think because they didn’t care.

In the end you were successful, waiting with bated breath as Cisco vibed Barry to the future yet again to see if their efforts were worth it. Of course the latino was giving a play by play, each person in the cortex hanging on his every word. You sat, hands in your lap, practically vibrating on the edge of your seat as they named the differences. “Savitar just arrived,” Cisco breathed and you could have sworn your heart stopped.

“Okay? And!” You urged, scooting to the edge as your eyes trained on your two friends. “Did it work?! Did we save Iris?” you asked the question on everyone’s mind, only, an answer didn’t come. Confused, and assuming that your plans were thwarted yet again, you slumped in your seat with a sigh.

Caitlin bit her lip to hide her disappointment as she looked over meaningless papers on her clipboard to look busy. H.R’s shoulders slumped as he gripped his drumsticks tightly. Wally did his best not to react, averting his gaze as he quelled his frustration and Joe hugged Iris to his chest. The defeat in the room was palpable as you turned back to your desk with a heavy sigh, the glance Cisco shared with Barry going unseen.

Cisco didn’t know what to say, hoping that Barry would, but when their eyes met he knew the hero was at just as much of a loss as he was. Swallowing the nerves in his belly, Cisco folded his goggles as he turned to his friends in the room. How was he supposed to say this? How could they be happy about this? Why couldn’t they just have one clean win?

“Um,” his voice cracked as he broke the silence, everyone’s head snapping in his direction. Being under direct scrutiny just made him want to shrivel up, avoiding their expectant, anxious gazes.

“We saved Iris,” Barry spoke up, forcing the cheer in his voice. The sigh of relief that filled the room only broke his heart as Cisco watched Iris rush to her fiance.

Perking up at your desk, a smile was already dancing on your features. “Yes!” you cheered, joy filling the room as everyone felt the weight of the world lift off their shoulders. Of course, nothing good could last around here, Iris being the first to pick up on Barry’s stiffness. She always could read him like a book.

“What’s wrong Bar?” She asked, pulling back just enough to look at him. Barry chewed his lip as he looked to Cisco for guidance. By now everyone was inching closer, confused as to why Barry wasn’t more excited. His wife-to-be was going to live so what’s the deal?

“We saved you but...” he faltered, stepping back as he turned to look at you. Lips parted to speak but he found the words caught in his throat. How could he say this to you, after everything you’ve done, after everything you’ve given them - him - as a friend.

“Alright dude, quit lookin’ at me like that. It’s freakin’ me out,” you laughed away your discomfort as all eyes turned to you. You didn’t like the pity in Barry’s gaze, the pain as he tried to say words that wouldn’t come. “We saved Iris what’s the big de-”

“You die!” Cisco blurted out, tense as he quickly clapped a hand over his mouth and turned his back.

The shock was clear as day on your face as you stood dumbfounded. You hadn’t thought of the consequences of rearranging the timeline but shit, you weren’t expecting this! Blinking, you took a breath, opening your mouth to speak but, like Barry, you were at a loss for words. Your mind couldn’t comprehend what was going on, couldn’t wrap around the idea that, just moments ago you were meant to live a semi-normal, happy life and now....now you only had a few days left.

Abruptly you turned, heels clicking on their way out of the cortex. You were on autopilot, mind blank and yet buzzing all at the same time. You could hear their voices calling after you, not wanting you to leave. How could they protect you if you weren’t there?! So you paused at the entry way, the calmness with which you turned setting them all on edge.

“I’m....gonna get really drunk,” you stated, moving as if to add to that before shaking your head and leaving. Yeah, you definitely needed a drink.....a stiff one.

“LET’S GET FUCKED UP!” Your voice drowned in the bass of the music, bodies writhing and jumping to the sound around you. The small glass cup in your hand was pressed to your lips, head tilting back as the cool liquid slipped down your throat. The burn had long since faded as your senses skewed from too much alcohol. What did you care anyways? Your days were limited, or was it hours now? WHO CARED YOU WERE DRUNK BITCH!

Laughter fell from your lips as you stumbled out onto the dance floor, plucking a drink from a tray as you passed. Whatever you grabbed was sweet, washing down your throat as you shimmied into the ground. Your phone buzzed in your back pocket for, you didn’t even know how many times. Like all the others it went completely ignored. You were drunk but happy, not a care in the world, and that’s how you wanted it to stay.

“Cisco, did she answer?” Barry’s voice spoke through the coms. He was zipping through Central City looking for you. How one person seemed to disappear so fast was unsettling. It was nearly two in the morning and Barry was starting to fear the worst.

“No,” Cisco sighed, the defeat was in his voice as he fiddled with his screens.

“Can’t you like...triangulate or something?!” Barry huffed, getting frustrated at his inability to find you.

“Oh yeah, because I haven’t tried that before,” Cisco shot back with a huff of his own.

Caitlin stepped up, offering a reassuring (though tense) smile to Cisco. Hands on the top of the desk, she leaned over so she could talk into the com. “Y/N would always go to Club Lavo,” She suggested with a hopeful tone.

Without a second thought Barry was rushing off, zipping through the streets of Central City.

Barry’s eyes darted around the dark club, squinting against the flashing lights. He was looking for your familiar mop of hair, groaning when he couldn’t make out much. Thank god he had his powers. Darting through the crowd, it only took a few moments to find you. Arms wrapped around your center, not thinking twice before rushing back to the Cortex.

The world rushed around you in too fast movements, halting all at once leaving you dizzy and stumbling. Legs wobbled as you attempted to step, stomach lurching as you doubled over. Barry had a can in front of you just in time for you to spill out stomach acid and what remained of a cocktail, grimacing at the sounds of your gagging.

The tell tale crackling of lighting had heads snapping to the doorway, hearts lurching as that eerie doppleganger made himself known. The smirk on his mangled face was cocky as he sauntered in, eyeing each and every horrified face. Savitar took pride in the way they tensed, the way they all seemed to skirt around you as if that would make a difference. Oh how feeble they all were. “Hand her over and I’ll let you all live,” He mused, reveling in the games he played with them.

“Like hell that’s gonna happen,” Barry quipped, refusing to let his future self have it easy.

“We can do it the hard way Barry. I’m faster than you, stronger. I am a GO-”

“Oh shut UP!” You whined, pushing past the Scarlet Speedster as you stumbled out from the protective little bubble your friends made. “You, sir,” you slurred as you waved a finger in Savitar’s face. “May fuggoff!” Stumbling back, a hand pressed to your lips as you felt your stomach gurgle. You weren’t about to let that stop your tirade though. “You think you kin juss waltz in here like you own the place? Newsflash, bro, you don’t. Dis my house,” you quipped, clapping to make your point. “In here, talm bout ‘I’m a God. Grrrr bow down to me,’“ you mocked the man you had all come to fear. “Like, who even are you?”

Savitar’s jaw clenched as he glared at you, hands fisting at his sides. Embarrassment began to crawl along his neck, staining his cheeks a soft red as you taunted him. How dare you?! You were meant to fear him!

“And another thing!” You started, turning back to him as you stumbled your way over. “You’re a digghead!” you fumbled the words as syllables began to slide together, finger jabbing the self-proclaimed God of Speed in the chest. “Oh wahhh, I didn’t like myself so I’m gonna go kill his wife. Like, talk bout small dick energy amirite?” you snorted, turning to your friends as you doubled over in laughter.

They all stared at you, wide eyed and slack jawed, unable to figure out just how they felt. On one hand it was hilarious, watching you verbally berate this so called God of Speed, on the other hand it was terrifying because they knew how ruthless the future Barry Allen could be.

“Should....I be offended by that?” Barry whispered softly to Cisco who merely shook his head with a small shrug. To be honest, he wasn’t sure what to make of all of this.

Glaring down at you, Savitar felt his heart fumble in his chest. He didn’t like the way you talked to carelessly to him, the way there was no fear in your eyes. Surely you knew he was the one to end your life. Why weren’t you acting like it! “I’ll slaughter your entire family if you’re no careful,” he ground out, hoping that, at the very least, would put you in your place.

Whirling around you stood straight, arms out beckoning him to prove it. “Let’s do it baby, I know the law!”

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bravemccalll · 6 years

Text

some princes don’t become kings .2

| ao3 |

chapter two – love, what a fickle thing

Hajime remembers watching videos about people who went into haunted houses and claimed that they saw a volatile spirit.

He wonders if he can technically say that he met an aggressive spirit after living here.

“If you fucking accuse me of eating your fucking Cheerios one more time,” the ghost haunting his apartment says, “I’m going to take a pipe and bash your skull in with it.”

Hajime just sips milk from a bowl devoid of any cereal.

“I can’t even eat anything,” the ghost, Fuyuhiko, snaps.

“That’s what they all say,” Hajime replies. Fuyuhiko throws a cushion at him.

Well.

Fact: the man who lives with Chiaki has fluffy white hair that reminds Hajime of cotton candy. Or a cloud. He isn’t sure yet.

Not a fact: he isn’t human. Hajime just thinks he might not be of this world. Nothing confirmed as of yet.

“Hello, my name is Nagito Komaeda,” the man who lives in apartment 13 along with Chiaki says. “I think,” he adds.

“You think?” Hajime asks. Nagito is very tall. His head almost brushes the top of Hajime’s doorway.

“I’m like, 98% sure,” Nagito says.

“Do you attract crazy people or something?” Fuyuhiko asks from beside Hajime. Hajime can only shrug. Nagito looks curious.

“Is the ghost here right now?” he asks. There’s a camera looped around his neck with a rainbow strap.

“He’s always here,” Hajime sighs. “Wait, how do you know – “

“Chiaki tells me everything. We’re best friends,” Nagito says. “Well, I’ve got to get to work. Ciao!” With a cheery wave, Nagito turns and disappears down the hallway.

“He isn’t wearing shoes,” Hajime says. He turns to Fuyuhiko to give him a disbelieving look. “Fuyuhiko, he’s not wearing shoes.”

“I noticed,” Fuyuhiko drawls.

“Why am I attracted to him?” Hajime asks, half talking to himself.

“Jesus Christ,” Fuyuhiko groans. Hajime can only agree.

Fact: Chiaki, from what Hajime has seen, always wears dresses. They usually have some wild and bright pattern on them.

Also a fact: Hajime likes them.

“How can you see ghosts?” Hajime asks her once when she’s over at his apartment. He’s only known her for a few days but already she has made herself at home in his space. There’s two mugs on the drying rack, the one with the slogan Pugs Not Drugs is Chiaki’s and the one that reads Pugs And Drugs is Nagito’s.

“Well, I’ve talked to other people that can see ghosts and they said that you can only see spirits if you’ve seen someone die.” She’s sitting at his Writing Desk That He Never Actually Writes At while he lies across his couch. She’s stretched her leg out and he’s cupping her ankle with his hand. He can feel her pulse through her skin.

“Oh,” he says. Her dress has pineapples on it today.

“Do you want to talk about it?” she asks and he thinks that this is the first time that he’s seen her not look completely consumed with happiness.

“Do you?” he asks in return.

“Not particularly,” she replies and turns back to his laptop. She’s reading the novel he’s working on and he finds that instead of tensing up, he doesn’t really mind.

“Can I come out now?” Fuyuhiko calls out from the bathroom.

“No, we’re still having sex,” Chiaki replies. Hajime snorts and she grins at him like she usually does.

Fact: Fuyuhiko does not understand any references that Hajime makes in front of him. Hajime finds this hilarious.

Lie: Fuyuhiko never gets irrationally angry about this.

During the night, someone must have crashed their car into the pavement. The fence at the front of their apartment complex has been mangled.

“Oh,” Hajime says when he sees it. “Mood.”

“What.” Fuyuhiko squints at him in confusion. Hajime only nods sagely and sips his coffee. “You weird me out sometimes, man.”

“Mood,” Hajime repeats.

“Stop!”

Hajime laughs.

Fact: Hajime has had strange dreams before. He usually forgets them by the time he gets up.

Also a fact: he doesn’t forget this one.

Hajime is in a bar. He looks around. The place is seedy and rowdy. Someone slaps a hand onto his shoulder, hard enough that he stumbles. Laughter rumbles from behind him. He turns around and sees a muscular man with a light-brown perm grinning at him widely. Hajime thinks he looks like a biker, and a dangerous one at that.

“Sorry there little man,” the biker guffaws. “Forgot you’re fragile!”

“Fuck off,” Hajime says before he can stop himself. He’s grinning. He doesn’t know why, but this feels familiar. This feels like muscle memory.

“Aw, leave him be,” another man says as he sidles up. His hair is bright red and his lip is pierced. He reaches out and pinches Hajime’s cheek. Hajime bats the hand away without any real aggression.

Another man comes up but he looks sweeter than the rest, with a rounder face and a soft disposition. Beside him is a woman with lilac hair and a passive face. “We’re due up on stage in eight hours. We have to do another sound check,” the woman says.

“Ugh,” the biker groans. “Another one?”

“I’d rather not,” the red head whines.

“Well, when your equipment stops working on mid-song, don’t come crying to me.” The woman pauses to give the sweet man a quick glance before she turns on her heel and leaves. The biker watches her walk away and Hajime punches him in the arm.

“Have some respect, dick,” he chides. The biker simply grunts before all of them follow the woman out the bar.

The sweet man turns his head and gives Hajime a grateful smile. Hajime opens his mouth, to say something, he doesn’t know what because the next moment –

he’s awake.

He blinks at the ceiling. He tries to understand his dream but he finds he just can’t.

“Shouldn’t you be sleeping?” Fuyuhiko asks. Hajime lifts his head and sees his ghostly roommate sitting, slouched in the wicker chair in the corner of his bedroom.

“Sorry, little man,” Hajime says.

“What did you just say?” Fuyuhiko asks. He looks pale. He always looks pale, a side effect of being dead he had once said, but now he looks completely white, as though Hajime has brought up the ghosts of the past that should’ve been left alone.

“Nothing,” Hajime says. “Ignore me, I’m just tired.” He turns around and closes his eyes, determined to go to sleep. He can feel Fuyuhiko’s stare on his back for the rest of the night.

Fact: another man and woman have moved in but this time it’s next door to Hajime. They call themselves ghost hunters.

Lie: they are completely professional.

“Show us the ghost!” the man who lives next door exclaims after he waltzes into Hajime’s apartment without knocking. Hajime is sitting on his old couch, eating Cheerios in his Cookie Monster pyjamas. He feels exposed.

“Gundham!” the woman says as she walks in as well. “You need to knock first. We talked about this.”

“Ah, yes. My apologies,” he says to Hajime and the two of them leave, closing the door behind them.

There is a beat of silence. Someone knocks the door.

“I swear my life was peaceful before you showed up,” Fuyuhiko sighs from the bookshelf.

“’Life’,” Hajime replies, using air quotes. Fuyuhiko scowls at him. Hajime answers the door.

The man – Gundham – grins wildly at him. He has a third eye drawn on his forehead in sharpie and multiple runes tattooed on his arms. “Greetings, mortal! We heard there is a ghost problem around these parts. You will aid us!”

“We hope you will, is what we’re saying,” the woman interjects. She also has runes on her arms. Her blonde hair swings around her shoulders as she bounces on the smalls of her feet. “I am Sonia and this is my life partner, Gundham. We are the Ghostbusters!”

“Oh,” Hajime says. “Like the movie?”

“The what?” They say in unison. They’re wearing matching outfits – black v-necks and dark skinny jeans. He is holding an old looking book and she has a utility belt around her waist. Hajime feels so tired.

“Never mind. Besides, there’s not a ghost here so – “ As though Fuyuhiko had waited for Hajime to say just that, he knocks Hajime’s cereal bowl off the coffee table and it clatters on the floor. Hajime turns around and glares at Fuyuhiko. Fuyuhiko smiles back at him sarcastically.

Gundham has narrowed his eyes at Hajime, suspiciously. “Unless…” he says. “You are the ghost.”

Sonia gasps and looks delighted. “Wow! I’ve never met a real ghost before!”

“Worry not, my dear, I know what to do!” Gundham tears through his book with a passion while Sonia watches on.

Hajime closes the door.

“I’m going to bed and I’m not speaking to you for the rest of the week,” he says to Fuyuhiko. Fuyuhiko just grins at him.

Fact: Peko owns the apartment complex they all live in, Raven Housing. Hajime doesn’t know where she got the money and sometimes he’s too scared to ask.

Not a fact: she’s probably a princess from some foreign land. Not confirmed yet. Yet.

“I have a date,” Peko says.

Nagito gasps from where he has clambered onto Hajime’s kitchen counter. “But you can’t.”

Hajime glances over and sees Fuyuhiko staring at Peko with a down-trodden look. It makes something itch in his chest.

“Why can’t I have a date?” Peko asks Nagito.

“Because the ghost who haunts this apartment complex has a crush on you,” Nagito says, stretching out until his feet are in the sink. Fuyuhiko makes an angry noise but Hajime doesn’t look over.

“Ignore him,” Hajime sighs. “I think he’s on drugs.”

“Right,” Peko says. Fuyuhiko has stopped looking at her like a sad puppy and has disappeared into the bathroom.

“Who is the date with?” Hajime asks.

“Some rich guy,” Peko says, reaching past Nagito to grab a handful of Cheerios from the box and munches on them. It’s the most human thing Hajime has ever seen her do.

“Do you like him?” Nagito asks. He reaches over and links his arm through her’s.

“Honestly? No. I just feel like every guy I go out with is…missing something.” She frowns at the cereal in her hands. “I just don’t know what.”

“How about this,” Nagito says. “You cancel the date and hang out with me, Chiaki and Hajime here. We can play Mario Kart.”

Peko looks over at Hajime with pursed lips. He smiles at her in a way that he hopes looks encouraging and supportive. It must work because she smiles back at them. “Alright.”

Hajime watches her walk out as she brings her phone out. He stands up and reaches past Nagito for the Cheerios as well. Nagito wraps his arms around Hajime’s waist lightly.

“Is she gone?” Fuyuhiko asks from the bathroom.

“She’s not going on the date,” Hajime calls back.

He pretends not to hear Fuyuhiko fall over and knock down a shelf.

Fact: Hajime has more friends than he’s had in a while. Even though one of them is dead.

Also a fact: he can’t remember the last time he was this happy.

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Text

Rawls vs. Nozick A dialogue

In 1971, John Rawls published A Theory of Justice outlining a political philosophy of Justice as Fairness. In 1974, Robert Nozick wrote, what some have called, a rebuttal to Rawls’ theory in his book Anarchy, State, and Utopia. In it, he calls Rawls’ work: “...a powerful, deep, subtle, wide-ranging, systemic work in political and moral philosophy which has not seen its like since the writings of John Stuart Mill...”. He goes on to say, “Political philosophers now must work within Rawls’ theory or explain why not” (Nozick, Ch. 7, sec “Rawls’ Theory”). But even in his extreme praise, Nozick is hesitant to illuminate any specific part of Rawls’ thesis that he agrees with and, instead, limits his work to points of conflict (as he sees them). From these points of conflict, Nozick generates his own political philosophy called “Entitlement Theory.” The main thrust of his argument is that for society to provide for the have-nots is to impinge on the freedoms of the haves (i.e. it demands constant intervention by the political body and the stripping and redistribution of property/ownership/rights from those who have “justly” acquired them). Rawls’ distributive justice, Nozick argues, works in opposition to the freedoms of all men, that it is a “patterned principle” and an “end-state principle” (Nozick, Ch. 7. “Patterning...”), and therefore will eventually be impeded by the liberty of individual humans or the liberty of individual humans will be impeded by it. He says, “...any derivations from end-state principles of approximations of the principles of acquisition, transfer, and rectification would strike one as similar to utilitarian contortions in trying to derive (approximations of) usual precepts of justice; they do not yield the particular result desired, and they produce the wrong reasons for the sort of result they try to get.” (Nozick, Ch. 7, sec “The Original Position...”). To translate, Rawls’ design of Justice as Fairness cannot stay within the designed pattern without intervention of the political body and therefore, by design, will eventually harm/impinge the “precepts of justice” Rawls’ theory advocates.

The following, imagined dialogue between Rawls and Nozick hopes to illuminate not only their opposing concepts and define them, but to show the cracks and contradictions (and strange agreements) that emerge specifically in Nozick’s rebuttal. I will draw from their own works (Nozick’s Anarchy, State, and Utopia and Rawls’ 1985 essay “Justice as Fairness”). Unfortunately for Nozick, he’s right when he says, “Political philosophers must work within Rawls’ theory or explain why not.” It is Nozick’s job to explain himself and his thinking and show us, to mangle a boxing metaphor, where he’s landed clean blows (and that all of his blows are above the belt). Or to quote Omar Little from the HBO television show The Wire, “You come at the King, you best not miss.”

A DIALOGUE

ROBERT NOZICK: I read and very much admired your work.

JOHN RAWLS: You say that, but I’ve seen your rebuttal in Anarchy, State, and Utopia.and I am not so sure where your admiration lies.

RN: What do you mean?

JR: Your engagement with my theory of distributive justice, based on my belief in justice as fairness, seems to be superficial and, at least, seems to reject my definition of justice as fairness especially in regards to how the state, or political body, would have to intervene to make fairness a reality. Where my concern lies with the least advantaged, yours seems to lie with the most. You appear, time and again, to indulge in the myth of peoples’ disadvantages as being of their own doing. You say, “From each according to what he chooses to do, to each according to what he makes for himself (perhaps with the contracted aid of others) and what others choose to do for him and choose to give him of what they’ve been given previously (under this maxim) and haven’t yet expended or transferred.” (Nozick, Ch. 7, Sec. “Patterning”). Or, crudely, that they must, figuratively if not literally, pull themselves up by the bootstraps while ignoring that a lot of these have-nots aren’t born with boots to begin with (and, unfathomably, that this is somehow of their own making).

RN: I agree that we disagree on the concept of fairness. Your boot analogy holds little sway though. If the boots have been acquired justly, to have the state intervene to redistribute these boots, is, indeed, to infringe on the rights of the person who’s talents and labor went into justly acquiring them. To intervene broadly, as your justice as fairness would recommend, without knowledge of whether or not thiswealth was justly acquired, risks infringement on those living and earning a just entitlement.

JR: But you allow that some wealth and advantage that exists now has been derived via unjust means. You acknowledge this when you say, “Some people steal from others, or defraud them, or enslave them, seizing their product and preventing them from living as they choose, or forcibly exclude others from competing in exchanges.” (Nozick, Ch. 7, Sec. “The Entitlement Theory”)

RN: Yes. And I go on to say that, “none of these are permissible modes of transition from one situation to another.” It is an important principle of my “Entitlement Theory”. The first two principles, of course, are as follows: one, “[a] person who acquires a holding in accordance with the principle of justice in acquisition is entitled to that holding.” And two, “[a] person who acquires a holding in accordance with the principle of justice in transfer, from someone else entitled to the holding, is entitled to the holding.” (Nozick, Ch. 7, Sec. “The Entitlement Theory”) Any existence of injustice or infringement of the first two principles raises the third principle: rectification of that injustice in holdings. My Entitlement Theory, by design, allows a remedy for any historical injustice.

JR: So you admit that in our current state, that some of the strife and disparity we witness is not simply the natural extension of just entitlements? It is not as simple as boots and bootstraps. That present injustice (and inequality) might be traced back to an original injustice, and that our modern concepts of wealth and justice, even the conception of your “Entitlement Theory”, might just be entangled with and originate from a premise of unjust acts (like theft, fraud, or slavery etc.)?

RN: I acknowledged this, but I ask: What now? How can we rectify these injustices? How can we know them? “If past injustice has shaped present holdings in various ways, some identifiable and some not, what now, if anything, ought to be done to rectify these injustices?” (Nozick, Ch. 7, sec. “The Entitlement Theory”).

JR: I have a suggestion. Justice as fairness! As I have said before, “the conditions for a fair agreement between equal persons on the first principles of justice for that structure must eliminate the bargaining advantage that inevitably arise over time within any society as a result of cumulative and historical tendencies.” (Rawls, 16; emphasis added). My “cumulative and historical tendencies” implies that the bargaining advantage that arises (via the accumulation of political power, wealth, native endowments) may also include disparities that have occurred via your concept of unjust acquisitions. I would go so far as to say, as your bafflement alludes to on this subject, that just and unjust acquisitions throughout history are inextricably and forever entangled.

RN: But you do not present direct accusations of injustice. You make no attempt to untangle the mess.

JR: We are both guilty of that, it seems.

RN: Instead, you broadly paint those with advantages as having come to those advantages via unjust practices. Meaning, that in the application of your theory, within its basic structure, you will harm those who have committed no injustice.

JR: I would say my position is less nuanced than that. I would say that any advantage – be it political power, or wealth, or native endowments – that allow for a “threat advantage” cannot be the basis of political justice (Rawls 16). I am not so concerned with how the power imbalance arises (historically, like you are), but how that power imbalance acts to oppress and destabilize right now and into the future. I allow for rectification of unjust acquisition by assuming that any threat advantage is unjust and will always be an imposition by the haves over the have-nots, those with boots and those on bare feet, implicitly. I am working from an original position, where absent the presence of any threat advantage, its negotiators, on the premise of justice as fairness, “...regards all our judgments, whatever their level of generality... as capable of having for us a certain intrinsic reasonableness.” (Rawls 30). We, when stripped of our arbitrary threat advantages (and the disadvantages they create), not only want to ensure a basic structure that allows for anyone to pursue the life they so choose, but also for no one to be left behind, forgotten, or be taken advantaged of in pursuit of the lives we so choose. This is a reasonable position. This is justice as fairness.

RN: This is what you would define as the “difference principle”?

JR: The difference principle is found within the second of my two principles of justice. The first principle being that “Each person has the same indefeasible claim to a fully adequate scheme of basic liberties, which scheme is compatible with the same scheme of liberties for all.” And the second being, “Social and economic inequalities are to satisfy two conditions: first, they are to be attached to positions open to all under the conditions of fair equality of opportunity; and second, they are to be to the greatest benefit of the least advantaged members of society (the difference principle)” (Rawls 42-43). In other words, any inequalities that naturally arise from the first principle, must, too, benefit those at the least advantage.

RN: You know what I’m going to say.

JR: Wilt Chamberlain.

RN: Well, yes. But first I want to briefly discuss Locke’s theory of acquisition and his famous proviso. And how, from this, I get to Wilt Chamberlain, and locate the crack in your system of justice as fairness – namely that it is a patterned principle and how patterned principles, or end-state principles, will always be disrupted by human liberty.

JR: Okay. Tell me about Locke.

RN: Simply, “Locke views property rights in an unowned object as originating through someone’s mixing his labor with it.” But “[t]his gives rise to many questions. What are the boundaries of what labor is mixed with? If a private astronaut clears a place on Mars, has he mixed his labor with (so that he comes to own) the whole planet, the whole uninhabited universe, or just a particular plot?” (Nozick, Ch. 7. “Locke’s Theory”).

JR: Why use an astronaut for your analogy when Locke provides a simple rendering of his property formula via the “Wild Indian.” He says, “The fruit or venison which nourishes the wild Indian, who knows no enclosure, and is still a tenant in common, must be his, and so is his— i.e., a part of him, that another can no longer have any right to it before it can do [the Wild Indian] any good for the support of his life.” (Locke 116; emphasis added). If the “Wild Indian” eats the venison, it is in his belly and the calories consumed are processed and delivered about his system to maintain his body and thereby his life. The venison and the fruit he has consumed are his property and no one else’s. He has “fenced” it off behind his organs. For another human to acquire what is in the “Wild Indian’s” belly would be for that other person to cut it out from him. But I would think this falls within your conception of unjust acquisition?

RN: It does. And is exactly my point. At what point does the venison become his property? When he ate it? When he cooked it? When he dressed it? When he killed it? When he picked up its tracks and saw it for the first time?

JR: Locke would argue, “The labour that was [his], removing [the object that was held in common] out of that common state they were in, hath fixed [his] property in them.” (Locke 117).

RN: Okay, for argument’s sake, let’s say property begins when the “Wild Indian” removes the venison from the commons, when he kills it, when he realizes the fruits of his labor. But before he can remove it from the commons, Locke’s proviso comes into play. “For this “labour” being the unquestionable property of the labourer, no man but he can have a right to what that is once joined to [that which was removed via his labor from what is commonly held in nature], at least where there is enough, and as good left in common for others” (Locke 116). That is to say that the taking of the venison is just so long as there are other venison held in common, so that the “Wild Indian’s” fellow humans are not disadvantaged by him making this venison his property. That is to say that, “Locke’s proviso... is meant to ensure that the situation of others is not worsened.” (Nozick, Ch. 7, sec. “Locke’s Theory...”). But there is an argument that this proviso introduces a problematic end point where, if all the venison are claimed by the labours of human beings, that the natural end point would be to the disadvantage of whomever did not lay claim or apply their labor to the acquisition of the venison. For, ultimately, to own something (of a finite nature – like venison) is to say someone else cannot own it and eventually disadvantage and inequality will emerge. This is all to say, “Someone may be made worse off by another’s appropriation in two ways: first, by losing the opportunity to improve his situation by a particular appropriation...; and second, by no longer being able to use freely (without appropriation) what he previously could. A stringent requirement that another not be made worse off by an appropriation would exclude the first way if nothing else counterbalances the diminution in opportunity, as well as the second” (Nozick, Ch 7. Sec. “Locke’s theory....”).

JR: The difference principle, you might say, is a stringent requirement not dissimilar to Locke’s proviso?

RN: You said it, not me.

JR: And how does Wilt Chamberlin come into play here?

RN: As an example of my Entitlement Theory, one not predicated on the need for a difference principle or a proviso, but instead a demonstration of wealth acquisition that is just and has no need of state interference (or a minimal need). It is based on the fictional situation that Wilt Chamberlain, being so sought after for his basketball talents, signs a contract that twenty-five cents from the price of each ticket of admission goes to him. “The season starts, and people cheerfully attend his team’s games; they buy their tickets, each time dropping a separate twenty-five cents of their admission price into a special box with Chamberlain’s name on it. They are excited about seeing him play; it is worth the total admission price to them. Let us suppose that in one season one million persons attend his home games, and Wilt Chamberlain winds up with $250,000, a much larger sum than the average income and larger even than anyone else has.” (Nozick, Ch. 7. Sec. “How Liberty Upsets...”). Is he not entitled to this wealth, this advantage?

JR: It depends.

RN: On what?

JR: Ignoring whether or not this plays within my own theory, I’m not sure this example can even live up to your own standards.

RN: Explain.

JR: The third principle of your Entitlement Theory acts to rectify any unjust acquisition.

RN: But I have demonstrated that that Wilt Chamberlain’s $250k was acquire via the first two principles.

JR: Yes, but you don’t account for the origin of all those quarters and whether or not each and every of those one million quarters were justly acquired. Not to mention the facilities in which the game is being played, and the owners of Wilt’s team, where did their wealth originate?

RN: This does not undercut the premise of Wilt’s just entitlement to that $250k. If injustice can be proven, it, too, can be rectified.

JR: And, say, hypothetically, those ticket buyers were all slaveholders. That not only did the quarter they gave Wilt Chamberlain derive from the labour of slaves, but the full ticket price too. Your third principle calls for an intervention, does it not?

RN: (says nothing)

JR: By amending your fiction even slightly with my fiction of 1 million slaveholders, we render Wilt’s natural endowments meaningless if the value of his labor is being paid for by unjust means. Before you protest, we know that your theory can be applied to the concept of slave reparations. Matt Bruenig discusses this briefly in a short article he wrote for the think tank Demos in 2014. He quotes you as saying “If the actual description of holdings turns out not to be one of the descriptions yielded by the principle, then one of the descriptions yielded must be realized.” (Nozick, Ch. 7, “The Entitlement Theory”). He rewords this to say, “If the actual holdings of property do not match the holdings that would have resulted under the conditions of justice, then steps must be taken to rectify that and place things back in just order.” In other words, Bruenig continues: “That's the most straightforward reparations argument there is.” (Bruenig “Robert Nozick agrees...”). Because the injustice of slavery is so vast and insidious and woven into the texture of all American wealth, rectification of this injustice would devastate the US economy (as we know it). Just like the realization that Wilt’s fictional $250k, and the fictional ticket prices, were being paid for by unjust means would necessitate a rectification (to put things in just order) that would devastate (force a redistribution of) not only Wilt’s $250K, but all revenues that the owners acquired and used to maintain their business and the facilities in which Wilt plays (including the pay cheques of Wilt and his teammates). For your Entitlement Theory to work, the third principle must be applied before the first two can come into effect. Just order must be restored. Even if all just acquisitions follow from one unjust acquisition, no following acquisition can be just. Your rules, not mine.

RN: But I did wonder, out loud, “Is an injustice done to someone whose holding was itself based upon an unrectified injustice?”(Nozick, Ch. 7. Sec. “The Entitlement Theory”). Is it not an injustice, in our fictional scenario, if Wilt’s just acquisition of wealth is used to rectify past injustices?

JR: So you would let an injustice stand rather than find an alternative to alleviate the encumbrances of threat advantages (like political power, wealth, and natural endowments) acquired via unjust practices?

RN: Ideally no rights would be impinged.

JR: Indeed. But rights have been impinged; they have led to inequalities and threat advantages in negotiating the basic structure of society. Your theory does little to rectify these imbalances; you even say you’re not really concerned with the specifics only the generalities of your theory (Nozick. Ch. 7. Sec. “The Entitlement Theory”). Even though you can acknowledge that these disparities exist and that some are derived by unjust measures, you still insist that one’s worth is their ability to tug on their own bootstraps. It is a troubling position to take, since, we established earlier, that it is hard to untangle the just or unjust origins of the person who wears boots and the person in bare feet (and what exactly their own abilities had in effecting their position or whether their circumstance arose out of an unjust imbalance). If Wilt’s wealth, like America’s, was built on the back of slavery, well, then as William Faulkner said about the injustice of the death of Emmett Till: “...if we in America have reached that point in our desperate culture when we must murder children, no matter for what reason or for what color, we don’t deserve to survive, and probably won’t.” (Stein, “William Faulkner...”). If we allow injustice to stand, or to wipe the slate clean as you put it, even if from here until eternity all acquisitions are just and follow the three principles of your Entitlement Theory, we will forever be haunted by those injustices – by the slow deterioration of society into ever greater extremes of those who have and those who have not.

CONCLUSION

Contrasting these two thinkers is an interesting challenge because, it is obvious, Nozick is inspired by Rawls’ thesis (he is an acolyte and a heretic at the same time). But his arguments tend toward the narrow, the specific, the arcane, and his formulations always support the haves and always place the have-nots in a weaker position (of having to beg or wait for the volunteer charity of others – the charity, of course, being generated by the surplus of the haves’ Nozickian “just” ownership of resources). He also doesn’t seem interested in collective political stability the way Rawls is interested in it. Though he does allow for a minimal state to maintain some form of coercive power to maintain some form of political stability (favoring, again, those who already have vs. those who have-not). He allows for this via his concept of liberty and by evoking that old cliché: that the have-nots are in their circumstance by their free will, that they need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps to overcome those circumstances. He openly ignores that a lot of these have-nots aren’t born with boots to begin with and privileges those who not only have one pair of boots, but may have more pairs of boots than their feet can fill (and that they may have come to this wealth of boots via unjust practices – either directly or indirectly). The third principle of his Entitlement Theory allows for the rectification of injustices, but as shown with slave reparations and my fictional Rawls’ amendment of the Chamberlin allegory, it doesn’t acknowledge how entangled our current circumstances are with historical injustices and to rectify them may mean the dismantling of our society as we know it. Here Nozick seems, sometimes, to be the contrarian for the contrarian’s sake (concerned with matters of the mind vs. matters of existential reality – like whether or not someone’s just ownership might impede access for others to what Rawls calls primary goods, or how lack of access to these primary goods places at risk the stability of the society (and the market) in which those so advantaged can pursue their so-called natural liberties.

Citations

Bruenig, Matt. “Robert Nozick Agrees With Ta-Nehisi Coates” Demos. 2014. (accessed via: http://www.demos.org/blog/5/22/14/robert-nozick-agrees- ta-nehisi-coates)

Locke, John. Two Treatise of Government. Printed for Thomas Tegg; W. Sharpe and Son; G. Offor; G. and J. Robinson; J. Evans and Co.: Also R. Griffin and Co. Glasgow; and J. Gumming, Dublin. 1883.

Nozick, Robert. Anarchy, State, and Utopia. Chapter 7. Basic Books. 2013. (accessed via: https://www.safaribooksonline.com/library/view/anarchy-state- and/9780465063741/Chapter007.html)

Rawls, John. Justice as Fairness, Part I §6 to 11, and part II §13 to 17. 1985.

Stein, Jean. “William Faulkner, The Art of Fiction No. 12” Paris Review. Issue 12. Spring 1955. (accessed via:https://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/4954/william-faulkner-the-art- of-fiction-no-12-william-faulkner)

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