NOT ME
WRITING A LUCIFER FIC
AND REALIZING THAT WHAT BOOTED HIM FROM HEAVEN WAS THE HEAVEN ELDERS/ANCIENTS
AND NOT HAVING INCLUDED THATIN THE FIC
WHO ARE THEY????????????
anyways don't mind me just compiling any references of them I can find and/or other sources and/or speculate just to have it all in one place
K so first explicit reference is in Overture during the exposition dump by Charlie. Not sure which EXPLICITLY are these guys so Imma just add/assume who I think
This them? Are these the assholes?
hmmmm okay either that WASN'T them and she was just talking about angels in general, OR Lucifer was ONE OF THEM, but I'm skeptical
okay assuming these 6 guys are the elders, I heard the number 6 somewhere else too, but that's an unverified source. Okay so maybe he's just a really OLD angel but younger than the elders? Were they like his strict homophobic/fantasy forbidding family or whatever?
Okay so that's clearly Sera and these silhouettes are different, so NOT the elders
Side note, why is Sera so BIG
anyways
that was episode 1... I don't think there's any mention of elders until Dad Beat Dad so let's go to there
Here they are
6 of them again, and the silhouettes match much closer the ones where Charlie directly talks about them. They have 6 wings too tho, so I'm willing to go out on a limb they're all seraphim like Lucifer and Lucifer and Sera were just younger ones (personally headcanoning that Lucifer is even older than Sera, maybe she looked up to him?)
TIME TO GO THROUGH WELCOME TO HEAVEN FRAME BY FRAME AHHH
okay the way Emily says that makes it sound like there are only two seraphim, herself and sera, and lucifer but he clearly doesn't count anymore. So then what are the elders? A different class of seraphim??? they got the 6 wings so what's going on???
"The seraphim" as in a group. But Emily didn't know about the exterminations... IM SO CONFUSED
Sera okayed the extermination, we know that much, but Emily didn't know about it. Do/did the elders know???
K looking at the court angels
Sera and Emily are clearly the highest ranking, there are at least a handful of familiar silhouettes that could be seen in the exposition, so I'm guessing none of these are winners and are all OG angels
are the mysterious elders the ones passing divine judgement?? nobody else is in the loop and they seem the type to withhold information
oh REALLY
mmm say like the opinions of 6 crusty old angles is being treated like law??
me: -trying my hardest to dig up lore that I need/want for the fic-
Hazbin hotel: teehee you don't know >:)
I did find confirmation that the rest of the court (not-seraphim) in fact did not know about the extermination, look at how equally horrified they are during "You didn't know"
I'm scrounging for scraps in a dumpster I swear
Sera IS the head Seraphim, which would make sense if it's just between her and Emily who's younger (and her job is just to keep everyone happy, which is very suiting for her) but it does imply a degree of separation between Emily/Sera levels of seraphim and whatever the elders are
"Heaven" needs them to perform their roles... but Sera isn't the highest authority, cuz she's scared that maybe someone else would boot Emily from heaven just for asking questions. The elders are clearly ABOVE Sera if she can't do anything about their verdicts.
okay side note
ohhohoho did Sera feel bad for Lucifer >:3c were they CLOSE? >:3c DID SHE DO NOTHING TO HELP HIM??? >:3c
Is she ashamed? Is this why she just folds to preserve whatever the elders ordered? Is she scared of them?
Okay only other episode I can look at rn is the last one
sooooooo yeah these two are the only Seraphim that aren't considered "elders" ugh okay things gathered from the episode:
Both Elders and Seraphim have 6 wings
as far as seraphim go, including Lucifer, there are only 3 total that we know of if not period and they are highest ranking but subordinate to the elders
the Elders hold absolute authority being the ones who very clearly and (implied) violently booted Lucifer out of heaven, Sera cannot override their decisions and fears Emily also being booted
They have very specific silhouettes and there are 6 of them
TIME TO SCROUNGE THE INTERNET
nope nevermind, the only thing I found from an actual source was Vivziepop saying in a stream, and I'm paraphrasing the wiki that links it "Information about heaven is being wrapped for later in the series" "It is very interesting" and Dave Capdevielle has a thing about heaven he finds interesting but won't talk about it cuz it's spoilers
In conclusion: RIP ME guess I'll just have to head canon my way through chapter 1 of my fic, ugh I have so much rewriting/adding to do
Chapter 1 is already like 10k words (the fic so far has 30k words and I'm pretty sure that amount is going to quadruple or quintuple by the time I'm done) UGH FINE LETS GO
On the bright side, this gives me MOAR ANGST OPPORTUNITIES? hmmm I might just tweak what I have tho and add some extra scenes? Major thinking needs to be done
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THE KNITTING SAGA BUT MAKE IT SAD
part 1 part 2
lets talk about relationships, shall we. i'm gonna focus on Athena & Telemachus this time, but Hermes will have his turn later
let's be real, Athena is a hardass. sure, she cares, but she's so emotionally constipated that it really doesn't show that much. especially before she goes through that character development arc after her break with Odysseus in My Goodbye
(and what a crisis that is)
(because her masterpiece??? failed her??? but she trusted him??? she made him as in her image as possible??? he was supposed to be perfect???)
(and if he's not perfect, then she failed,,, and she can't fail, she doesn't fail,,, she's a goddess,,, war strategy is her domain, surely there is no way her plan could be flawed,,,)
(what even is the point of her if she's not perfect)
so yeah, she's a hardass. even on baby Telemachus who'd never held a sword before - especially on baby Telemachus, because he's the son of her favored Champion. he may be waaay younger than any of her previous pupils, but she's expecting him to shine just as bright.
Athena, on the first day: let's get down to business! make your father proud! you won't have a weakness! by the time we're done! you're the saddest pupil that I've had! and you haven't got a clue! but I will make a man outta you!
Telemachus, a literal toddler, holding a wooden sword as big as himself: ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶
and for years to come she trains him relentlessly. she's honestly trying to be nice about it, too. it's just that Athena doesn't do soft or gentle, her default is a neutral face of displeasure, and her idea of encouragement is saying you're not as bad as you used to be, or something along these lines.
Telemachus: *succeeds at something*
Athena: *raises an eyebrow in a slightly different manner than usually*
Telemachus: *le gasp* could it b-be? am I doing a good job???
Athena: it's… acceptable for your age.
she never once tells him she is proud of him. because surely he already knows. he doesn't need to hear it. his father didn't, after all (odysseus so fucking did)
and this goes on until Telemachus reaches double digits. then My Goodbye happens, and Athena has Feelings™. she's having an existential crisis, and has to confront the fact that she had done something wrong while training Odysseus, and she can't understand what. which is terrifying, because what if she makes a mistake like that with Telemachus. will he fail her too?
will she have to leave him too, so she doesn't watch him die horribly in a tragedy that could've been prevented if only she had made him see-
so Athena doubles down and starts demanding more and more from Telemachus. the praise goes from sparse to non-existent, and nothing he does seems to be enough anymore. she goes from tough love to borderline verbal abuse, thinking that it's the only way to keep him safe and prepare him for the future.
and Telemachus endures. he has to, because he doesn't want his mother to worry. doesn't want to appear weak. Odysseus had done it, so it's only fair his son should too. and when his dad comes home, he'll be sooo impressed. he can do it!
except…. not really. it's been a losing battle since the beginning, and deep down he knows it. he cant win with Athena, not on his own.
???: if you want to impress her, you'll need the blessing of a certain god! divine intervention! someone who's not afraid to-
telemachus: aeolus, what are doing in my closet?!
so anyway, Aeolus and winions start helping him via winds and stuff, and Telemachus actually starts exceeding everyone's expectations. it's not that he'd been bad before, but he's soft, and not quite strong enough physically to make up for his gentle constitution
everyone is cheering him on. he's the talk of the palace! his mom is so proud! the suitors start sizing him up with consideration instead of dismissing him outright! (and tele, baby, that's not a good thing! ಠ_ಠ). Athena seems pleased for the first time in ages!! but he knows that it's all a lie, and it's killing him.
cause he's a good, honest boye, and he wants to succeed on his own merit, not because of cheating and lying to everyone he loves. that's vile and dishonorable.
que some very important island-wide competition that everyone is expecting him to join and win. maybe it's even his duty as a prince. like, a right of passage from complete boyhood to adolescence.
and there's,,, a lot of pressure on Telemachus to suceed. everyone and their mother are telling him that of course he's got this, he's a prodigy! def his father's son! nobody doubts his incoming victory! he's got this! he definitely won't disappoint them!
random noble: we'll be cheering you on, young prince! truly, we are blessed by the gods to have such a talented successor to the throne! we'll watch with keen eyes as you triumph over your foes and bring even more honor to your family! b( ̄▽ ̄*)
telemachus, eye twitching: y-yeah… thank you… (ㆆ _ ㆆ)
so, the night before the competition Telemachus can barely sleep, he's so wrecked by guilt and nerves. he keeps thinking - what would his father do in this situation? all the stories he'd ever heard of Odysseus always painted him as some kind of invincible, righteous, all-capable genius. so the idea of his dad ever grappling with guilt and feelings of inadequacy is just laughable. (oh, if only he knew)
so, he goes to his mom for advice. because Penelope is awesome. but he can't bring himself to admit that's he's cheating - what if she's ashamed of him? he brought dishonor to his father's name, and if anyone knows - will he get exiled?
so yeah, he basically has a panic attack and cries for like, half an hour straight.
telemachus, bawling: if I lose tomorrow, will you hate me? will dad hate me? I can't do anything right and I'm a failure and a horrible person and- just- what do I do, mother?
penelope, holding him: oh, love. sometimes you're so similar to your father I wonder if the gods haven't returned him to me in spirit through you.
because no matter what everyone else says, Penelope knows the truth - Odysseus always followed his heart. oh, how he may have tried to forget he had one, to only ever use his head. but a heart he did have - does have, they have to believe that - and it's a bright and a gentle one. he may have been hardened by years of pain and struggle in a way that Telemachus hadn't yet (and Penelope's heart breaks from knowledge that her son will be, one day). but deep down, at ther cores, Odysseus and Telemachus are strikingly similar. and she loves them all the more for it.
and so, with his mother's blessing, the young prince does just as she told him to: follows his heart. he thanks Aeolus for their help, and asks them to stop giving it from now on. either he'll suceed on his own merit, or he'll wear his failure as a badge of honor and an incentive to do better.
and he loses. badly.
and the world,,, doesn't end? sure, the suitors sneer and jeer, but there's a surprising lack of disowning and exile going around. and the nobles tone it down significantly with undeserved adoration, which is definitely a plus, as far as he's concerned.
the only thing is. Athena.
oh boy.
because she's not stupid. Telemachus may have gotten away with cheating so far, but now he'll have to answer to her why he had flunked so badly, and she won't buy his go-to excuse of 'I got nervous!'
athena, expression unreadable: so. care to explain yourself, my stupid pupil?
telemachus: w-well, you see… ha-ha… it's, uh… a funny story…
athena: you threw away your best advantage! you've had a god perfectly willing to assist you and yet you still somehow managed to lose!
telemachus: wait, what-
so yeah, Athena knew all along.
athena, mildly insulted: how stupid do you think I am, boy?
telemachus: but! but! but!.. you never said anything! didn't even scold me for cheating!
athena, even more insulted: child, I am the goddess of war strategy, where did you get the idea that I ever play fair abd straightforward? leave that to ares, the simple-minded fool!
to clarify, she's not upset at him for cheating. she's upset that he stopped doing so. so she throws some choice words at him, implying he lacks both talent and intelligence
and Telemachus defends himself by saying that he'd rather fail on his own merit, than abandon his principles and win by lying and dishonoring his family. in response, she calls him naive.
he tries to implore to her connection to his father by saying that he was just trying to do what's right. he was following his heart, just as Odysseus had always strived to. and he's training to fight for his loved ones, not for glory of being known.
it's a one hit K.O., because it reminds Athena of her recent break-up with Odysseus. of everything they spat at each other during My Goodbye. of anger, if hurt, of disappointment, of betrayal, of I loved you and you failed me, of I loved you and I failed you, of good riddance! and y̶͈̔o̴̘̖͆u̶̻̱͆͒'̸̫̩̌̉r̷̼͝e̴̩̒ ̴͎̻̈́̎ȧ̸̦l̵̗͙͌̐o̸͚͕̚n̷̟̯͠e̵̳̩͠
and is their whole line just cursed? is it their way of punishing her for something? why do they both hurt her so? is it her fault?
telemachus: athena? are… are you okay? (‘-’*)
athena, coming off MG flashbacks: well, obviously, boy, why would you even ask that (ಥ﹏ಥ)
Telemachus just hugs her, because she obviously needs it. and she melts into it like never before.
because she wasn't made for empathy or kindness. she's born to be ruthless and cold. she's not supposed to love and be loved care about anything but winning. it doesn't come natural to Athena, until recently she had truly thought herself unable to, and yet-
yet here, right in front of her, is a boy who loves for the both of them. loves the whole world - sincerely, selflessly. a truly kind and caring soul (the noble even joke that is true father is Polites).
she can't love.
but maybe… maybe he will teach her.
maybe he already did.
or maybe she always could.
she forgets sometimes, that her fingers know not only the roughness of swords and spears, but also the gentle softness of weaved silk. creation goes hand in hand with destruction, and she can bind countless threads together without breaking them.
and what are humans, if not strings, waiting to be cut by the fates?
also, if Telemachus can teach the goddess of cold cynicism and detached cruelty kindness of all things, then she can teach him swordplay.
yes, it's a threat.
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