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korpikorppi · 1 year

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Some thoughts on the origins of Jin Guangyao's sword, Hensheng, in the Untamed

Saw this excellent set of gifs from ep23 by @zelkam and went "Wait! Wait wait wait. That's a soft sword!"

So I went to check ep23 and indeed, Meng Yao kills Wen Ruohan with a soft sword:

Then I recalled (been a while too long since I last rewatched these episodes 😅) that this is actually confirmed by Wei Wuxian and Jin Guangyao's discussion during the victory banquet (in ep23):

JGY: You seemed to want to say something to me as we were greeting rach other.

WWX: It's nothing. Just that the weapon you used to kill Wen Ruohan on that day of the Sunshot Campaign seemed to be a flexible blade. Why doesn't Young Master Jin carry it today?

JGY: Young Master Wei, sorry to have made (it) a show. It was just a random blade I picked up. Later, as I found out it had dark energy, I threw it away.

(As a side note, how observant Wei Wuxian is! He was exhausted from using the Tiger Seal, choked by Wen Ruohan, about to lose consciousness, and yet he noticed that!)

Yeah, right. We all believe you, Jin Guangyao 🙄. Soft swords (rare as they are) just tend to lie around. And that soft sword looks very - very - similar to Hensheng:

In ep23, the blade has fittings that are clearly Wen, with dark-tarnished metal parts and a dark-red handle:

And as we see in ep41, for example, Hensheng has white, gold and green fittings that are very clearly Jin, as befitting Jin Guangyao's status.

But fittings can easily be changed, and the overall similarity is so great that it is quite clear (or at least I am convinced) that it is the same blade (and as already mentioned, soft swords are not that common). I am also quite convinced that it was not "just a random blade" he picked up.

If that is so, when did Meng Yao acquire the sword? Did he acquire it at some point after his banishment from Unclean Realm? Or did he acquire it during his time in Nightless City, a hidden sword for a last line of defence in an enemy stronghold? Or, was it a gift from Wen Ruohan?

As I mentioned, soft swords are not that common and high-class spiritual swords do not come cheap, so it is unlikely that Meng Yao would have been able to acquire one after his banisment, when his means must have been quite limited. It is more feasible that he could have acquired one sometime during his stay in the Nightless City, but I think I am most intriqued by the last possibility. Meng Yao seemed to have gained a high status and a position as some kind of advisor or right-hand man to Wen Ruohan, so it is feasible that he gifted the sword to his servant. This would be supported, firstly, by the custom made Wen fittings (no standard fittings for that type of blade!) and, secondly, by Jin Guangyao's mention that the sword had "dark energy" (translated sometimes as the sword being sinister) and by his eagerness to downplay the whole thing as "just a random sword I threw away" (can you just imagine Nie Mingjue's reaction to that piece of information in the aftermath of the Sunshot Campaign...).

Also, I have always found Hensheng (恨生, Hènshēng), to hate/regret life, to be a bit peculiar name for a cultivator's blade (even for Jin Guangyao's blade), but if the origin of the blade would indeed lie here, it would add an entire new dimension to why Jin Guangyao chose to name it so. Or was the blade named for him?

So in the end, if what I am speculating here is right, Wen Ruohan had his own weapons turned against him, in more ways than one.

And as an end note, there is no mention about the origin of the blade in the MDZS wiki, so it is not mentioned in the novel? Anyone remember if there is anything implied? Also, Hensheng definitely is a soft sword in The Untamed, contrary to what is written in the wiki.

#oh look! it's me rambling about swords again #jin guangyao #meng yao #hensheng #wen ruohan #theuntameddaily #the untamed swords #the untamed #cql #mdzs #meta #cql meta #random late night ramblings #mine

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waitineedaname · 12 days

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I love chenqing. fuckass evil flute that everyone hates. somehow considered more dangerous than the literal magic swords everyone else has. supposedly made of bamboo but wei wuxian was out there whacking people with it on the battlefield. it's a vessel to channel dark and fucked up magic, but it was also a toddler's favorite teething toy. it's great.

#mdzs #probably my second favorite spiritual weapon #second only to zidian #because zidian whips ass (literally)#i love the fight scenes in the untamed #where wwx is literally just thwacking people with it #still wielding it like a sword

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lgbtlunaverse · 3 months

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What kind of saber is baxia anyway?

I love my bloodthirsty princess of a cursed blade, and in my heart of hearts i am nothing but a sword nerd, so i've been extremely fascinated by Baxia and how we know frustratingly little about what she actually looks like!

I mean, look at bichen, right?

Bichen in the donghua:

Bichen in the drama:

They're clearly not exactly the same. The scabbards are different, and the guards have a different shape. But these are recognizably different iterations on one theme, right? Thin jian with a white grip silver guard, light blue tassel and silver mounting accents on the scabbard.

Now this is baxia in the donghua:

And baxia in the drama:

????????

THAT'S A COMPLTELY DIFFERENT WEAPON

it doesn't stop there either, the audio drama is kind enough to give us ANOTHER COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BAXIA

pretty! But how is that he same sword??

And when we go back to the novel, we get very little information on her appearance other than the fact that her blade is tinted red with all the blood she's absorbed. Which none of these designs incorporate.

This is not a dig on the designs itself, they're all quite gorgeous in their own right and i'm going to spend a while discussing all of them! Because isn't it fascinating how, since we know little about novel baxia beyond "saber" all of these designs ended up so different? What kinds of sabers are these, anyway?

So, a chinese aber, aka a "dao" (刀) just means a sword that has only one cutting side. As opposed to a jian, which has two.

You can see how that leaves a LOT of room for variaton.

I've actually seen some people get confused because Huaisang's saber in the untsmed is thin and quite straight, making it superficially resemble the jian more than drama!baxia, but it is still clearly a saber!

See? only one cutting blade!

This, to me looks a lot like a tang dynasty hengdao

credit to this blog for providing his image and being a great source for all this going forward.

TANGENT: during all this I found out the english wikipedia page for dao is WRONG! Ths is what they about the tang hengdao!

So that sounds like the hengdao was called that during the sui dynasty, but then, after that, started being called a peidao, right?

WRONG

I LOOKED AT THE SOURCE THEY USED AND IT SAYS THIS:

IT WAS CALLED THE PEIDOU UNTIL THE SUI DYNASTY, AT WHICH POINT IT WAS CALLED A HENGDAO. Which would carry over to the Tang dynasty. This was the source wikipedia linked! and it says something else than they say it does!

Anyone know how to edit a wikipedia article?

ANYWAY

BACK TO BAXIA

Since we're already at the drama, let's look at drama baxia: She's also straight! the general term for straight-backed saber is Zhibeidao, but that's a modern collector's term, and doesn't really say anything about which historical kind of saber baxia could be based on. Another meta i found on the drama nie sabers already went on some detail here.

I'm gonna expand on that a little: The kinds of historical straight-backed sabers we see resemble the hengdao a lot more than they do baxia. They don't go to their point as harsly as she does (she's basically a cleaver!) and they're all way skinnier.

No, my personal theory is that instead of being based on any kind of historical sword, drama!baxia is based on a Nandao.

I mean, come on, look at it!

Baxia!

The Nandao... isn't actually a historical sword. It was invented for Wushu forms. There's a really fascinating article about its conception, but that's why the swords in the images look a little thin and flimsy. Wushu swords are very flexible and light, they're dance props, not weapons to fight with. There are actual steel versions of Nandao, but they're recreations of the prop, not the other way around.

So That's one way in which Baxia differes from the Nandao: she's actually a real weapon. The other is that, as you can see above, the nandao has an S-shaped guard. Baxia doesn't. She's also much more elaborately decorated, of course. Because she's a princess.

Now: audio drama baxia!

This is much easier. with that flare at the tip?

Oh baby that's a niuweidao, all the way!

There are more sabers with that kind of curved handle, but the broad tip is really charcteristic of the niuweidao. The Niuweidao is also incredibly poplar in modern media, often portrayed as a historical sword, but it originated i nthe 19th century! And it was actually never used by the military!

That's right, the Niuweidao was pretty much exclusively a civilian weapon! That makes its use here anachronistic, but so is the nandao, and considering that the origin story of the Nie is that they use Dao intead of Jian because their ancestors were butchers, portraying them with a weapon historically reserved for rebels and common people instead of the imperial military is actually very on theme!

Finally, Donghua/Manhua baxia. These two designs are so similar I'm going to treat them as one and the same for now.

Unlike both previous baxias, The long handle makes it clear this baxia is a two-handed weapon, though Nie Mingjue is absolutely strong enough to wield her with one hand anyway. Normal rules don't count for cultivators.

Now, this is where things get tricky, because there are a lot of words for long two-handed sabers. And a lot of them are interchangable! This youtube video about the zhanmadao, one of the possible sabers this baxia could be based on, goes a little into just how confusing this can get. This kind of blade WAS actually in military use for many centuries, making it the most historically accurate of all the baxias. But because of that it also has several names and all of those names can also refer to different kinds of blades depending on what century we're in.

So here's our options: i'm going to dismiss the wodao and miandao, because these were explicitly based on japanese sword design, and as we can see manhua baxia has that very broad tip, so that won't work

(Example of a wodao. According to my sources Miaodao is really just the modern common term for the wodao, and the changdao, and certain kinds of zhanmadao... do you see how quickly this gets confusing?)

Next option: Zhanmadao.

Zhanmadao stands for "horse chopping saber" so... yeah they were anti-cavalry weapons. meant to be able to cut the legs and/or necks of horses. That definitely sounds like a weapon Nie Mingjue would wield. But if you watched that youtube video i linked above, you'll know the standardized Qing dinasty Zhanmadao looked very different from earlier versions. It was inspired by the japanese odachi, and more resembles the miandao than its ealrier heftier counteprarts.

Earlier Ming dynasty Zhanmadao on the other hand were... basically polearms. the great ming military blog spot, another wonderful source, says these are essentially a kind of podao/pudao (朴刀) which looked like this

Now that blade looks a lot like baxia, but the handle is honestly too long. Donghua!baxia straddles the line between sword an polearm a little, but while zhanmadao have been used to refer to both long-handled swords and polerarms, this was undeniably a polearm, not a sword.

If you want to know what researching this was like, I found a picture of this blade on pinterest-- labeled as a "two-handed scimitar"-- and the comment section was filled with people arguing about whether this was a Pudao, Wudao, Zhanmadao, Dadao, Guandao, or a japanese Nagita.

So... that's how it was going. This has kept me up until 2 AM multiple times.

However! Thanks to this article on the great ming military blog I found out there have historically been pudao blades with shorter handles!

Specifically, Ming dynasty military writer Cheng Ziyi created a modified version of the pudao to work with the Dan Fao Fa Xuan technixues-- aka technqiues for a two-handed saber, which would alter heavily influence Miaodao swordmanship-- thereby, as the article points out, essentially merging the cleaver-polearm type Zhanmadao with the later two-handed japanese-inspired design.

This is the illustration for the Wu Bei Yao Lue (武備要略) a Ming dynasty military manual

This blade shape in the illustration doesn't match Baxia exactly, but since it's a lengthened Pudao-like blade and we've seen above that those can match Donghua Baxia's shape, i'm gonna say that calling Baxia a Zhanmadao with a two-handed grip isn't all that innacurate!

However, because all of these terms are so intertwined, there are a dozen other things you could call her that would be about equally correct.

To show that, here's a lightning round of other potential Baxia candidates:

Dadao (大刀)

Which are generally one-handed and too short. However!

Another youtube video i found of someone training with a Zhanmadao that resembles baxia a little also calls it a "shuangshoudai dao" (雙手带刀) shuangshou means two-handed, and while 雙手带 seems to refer to a longer handled weapon, when looking for a shuangshou dao or shuangshou dadao (双手大刀) we find a lot more baxia-resembling blades like here and here

I also found that, while the cleaver-like Dadao is strictly a product of the 20th centuy, since dadao just means big sword or big knife, it has been used to refer to loads of different weapons! Some people could've called the zhanmadao and pudao "dadao" during the Ming dynasty as well.

Another potential baxia candidate that mandarin mansion classifies as similar to the later dadao (though longer, as seen in the illustration below) is the "Kuanren Piandao"

Which piqued my interest because this diagram classifying different tpye of Dao:

Claims that a Kuanrenbiandao (diferent spelling, same sword) is the same as a modern day Zhanmadao.

(So once again, all of these terms are interchangable)

Another opton Is the Chuanmeidao/Chuanweidao (船尾刀) below you can see a diagram, based on the Qing dynasty green standard army regulation, of blades all officially classified as types of "pudao"

The top middle is the Kuanren Piandao, and bottom left is the Chuanweidao.

Both of these have a lot of baxia-like qualities.

So there you go! live action baxia is based on a Nandao, audio drama baxia is based on a Niuweidao, and Manhua/donghua baxia is some kind of two-handed Zhanmadao/Pudao/Dadao depending on how you want to look at it.

I'm honestly surprised no one has made the creative decision to portray Baxia as a Jiuhuandao, aka 9 ringed broadsword yet.

I mean look at it! Incredibly imposing. Would make for a great Baxia imo. (@ upcoming mdzs manga and mobile game: take notes!)

#mdzs #mdzs meta #nie mingjue #baxia #cql #the untamed #long post #I HAVE SO MANY TABS OPEN. FEEL MY SUFFERING #I understand that asking a gigantic region with thousands of years of rich history and many different subcultures #to have one standard naming convention is basically impossible #But could they do it anyway? for me? 🥺#i also want to buy one of these... so bad #or even just a plastic trainer so i can practice the techniques #but i know that once i start buying swords i'm not gonna stop until my money runs out #Being a sword nerd is a very dangerous not phyisically but for your wallet

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agendratum · 1 year

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The Untamed as text posts (93/?) the extremely self-indulgent zhancheng edition

#the untamed #cql #mxtxnet #theuntamededit #theuntameddaily #cqledit #zhancheng #lan wangji #jiang cheng #cqlmemes #mt #i finally did it #all the swords are a metaphor btw #you know the drill

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badass-queer-couples-battle · 2 months

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Sword gays showdown, round 2, bracket three

Propaganda:

For Lan Wangji:

Peak "while-you-were-being-heterosexual-I-studied-the-blade" energy. He canonically falls in love with & marries another man (the protagonist) who he sticks with and believes in the entire time, even wielding his sword against the elders of his cultivation Sect. He also wields a guqin (a large stringed Chinese instrument), but I think he uses Bichen, his sword, more often / as a primary weapon.

For Amaya:

Badass super strong disabled lesbian general who can and will take you out. Doesn't need a sword to punch you into next week, but will use one anyway.

She’s married to another sword gay and she’s also disabled so I love her very much

First deaf character I saw in any cartoon, she's very badass and protects her kingdom's border, later falls in love with an elf warrior princess she once fought. In the new season, they're planning their wedding while trying to navigate political tensions between the elf society and humans. Some of the elves aren't super into the idea of a human marrying one of them, which isn't for homophobic reasons but still (I believe) meant to mirror real world conservatives (really liked a scene with Janai's brother telling Amaya she's fine as a girlfriend for Janai but actually *marrying* her is too controversial and political. Whoever wrote this did a really good job).

She’s currently engaged to another lady, she uses a sword, is a general badass.

General Amaya is a standard sword lesbian with a cool shield and some funny "lines" example: "This bread is...." *bashes bread on table with no damage to the bread* "Weapons grade"

#sword gays showdown #lan wangji #general amaya #the dragon prince #mo dao zu shi #mdzs #tdp #the untamed

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