#the gay characters were sort of main characters
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Reflecting on queer representation in X-Men 97 - and speculating on the future...
Before X-Men '97 was revealed, I made a post all about queer X-Men characters and the possibilities for this show... and now the show is out... so I figure I should do a follow-up! Let's discuss what happened and the possibilities for the future.
This is a long post, so I'll put my thoughts under the cut!
Part One: What We Got
Morph
The show's primary form of queer representation is in the character of Morph. They're the main "OC" of the original 1992 cartoon - they've always been important to the animated series canon despite not having much presence in the comics - so this is a pretty bold choice from that perspective...
They are a fairly unique type of gay by 2024 mass-market corporate standards. They're sassy bordering on mean in a way that would feel very typical for the 2000s but is sort of refreshing in the 2020s... They are non-binary, though their gender is never really discussed in the show itself - their voice actor sees them as being on a gender journey, though my personal reading is that they seem quite comfortable with themself and their gender already... Everyone who refers to them uses they/them pronouns thus far, though most dialogue is written to avoid gendering them entirely.
They are also notably attracted to Logan, something reflected throughout the show though most directly acknowledged in Episodes 3 and 10. They joke about showering with Logan and, when they think they see him in the showers, they give themselves Wolverine claws to help him reach the "hard-to-reach places"... Morph then actually says "I love you" to him in Episode 10, taking the form of Jean Grey to do it.
Whether a queer character pining for the "straight"* friend is good representation or an overplayed trope is subjective, but we will see where this arc goes in future seasons!
*Logan definitely isn't straight, but Marvel Corporate and Season 1 showrunner Beau DeMayo both say he is lmao.
Cipher + Boom Boom
I made an entire post about these two, but we also got a same-gender duo dancing at the Gala on Genosha... These are Cipher and Boom Boom - two characters who are not currently explicitly queer in the comics, but are interesting characters to read as queer IMHO! Cipher especially is a fascinating choice - the background gay is someone with the power to literally turn herself invisible lmao.
Northstar
Marvel's first openly gay superhero made two cameos in X-Men 97 - he appears in an X-Men recreation of A Different World in Episode 4 and with his fellow Alpha Flight members (plus Cipher and Psylocke) in Episode 10. He doesn't do anything of note really, but his hair colour is correct at least - the original show mistook his hair having white streaks as a trick of the light in some famous books and comic covers as him actually black-and-white hair in-universe...
Pixie
I'm not 100% sure if this should count, but the ever-perky Pixie turned up on Genosha in Episode 5 alongside her fellow New X-Men. As of writing, she's more of a queer-coded character than a capital-C canon queer in the comics... but she is solicited to be in the next Pride book alongside Bling! and Anole, who are canon queers, so I feel like her long-implied (and confirmed in an AU) bisexuality is likely to be canon in a couple weeks... so yeah - Genosha had a queer fae on it! Good for her.
There were a couple of other background gay characters, but nobody recognizable from the comics - there are some theories Blink and Husk were presented as a couple, but the "Blink" character appears to be a shapeshifter, so I would guess they are just OCs...
Part Two: Who is Teased
Like any modern Marvel project, we ended on a bunch of teasers... Two big explicitly queer names appear in those final moments - let's chat about that...
Iceman
After a season of appearing in the portrait of the O5 X-Men in Xavier's office, Bobby appears in Forge's DoFP-style board of potential future teammates at the end of the show.
In the comics, he famously comes out as a result of time-displaced versions of the original X-Men team showing up. A teenage Jean Grey reads the mind of a teenage Bobby Drake, who has been obscenely remarking on his very-real totally-not-fake attraction to Magik, and tells him that he is gay. This... probably isn't going to happen in the show, but I could see them taking this as a chance to do another take on Bobby's coming out.
They also could adapt the older story where Emma Frost possesses Bobby's body and, among other things, informs him that he will not be able to master his powers to their full potential until he works through his internalized identity crisis - though she doesn't say that he is gay at the time (the Comics Code prohibiting such things was still in effect), just implying it.
Bobby's had a lot of pairings in the comics, but in the show I think he is likely going to be Morph's actual love interest. He's gay. He's also a queer jokester. They'd probably get along and enjoy ribbing each other. We'll see what happens, but that's my guess...
Rachel Summers
Mother Askani was a shadow that lingered over the entire show and finally revealed herself in the final moments. The woman who raised Cable in a distant future alongside a cult of her worshippers, Mother Askani is a variant of another Summers-Grey child, Rachel Summers from Days of Future Past.
After decades of queer-coding, Rachel was finally confirmed as queer in 2022 when she kissed Betsy Braddock. This coming-out took around a year to be approved by corporate, but it did indeed finally happen and she even has a story in this year's Pride special. So I am hoping that she will be doing some queer stuff in the show itself...
Rachel's younger form was already present in the original show, albeit as a non-verbal cameo, so my prediction is that she has done all her time-travelling stuff and got split into her Askani and Mother Askani forms off-screen... but we will see how they adapt this character - Rachel's never really had a chance to be multi-media before, so I'm unsure how much they will streamline things.
Part Three: Askani's Partners
Rachel Summers has only had one textual girlfriend, but she's somehow still gotten around... Let's discuss some possibilities!
Betsy Braddock
Betsy Braddock is Rachel's current and thus far only textual girlfriend. Not unlike Rachel, Betsy has some... complicated lore. While she is currently the leader of the Captain Britain Corps, she spent a lot of her publication history with her mind trapped in the body of the Japanese Ninja Kwannon, operating as the assassin Psylocke.
Yes. That Psylocke. Most Psylocke appearances are actually a white British woman inside of a Japanese woman's body. I am sorry if anyone had to learn that this this way.
In a not-so-hot take: I think the show should just skip the body swap... but with rumours of Captain Britain in the MCU and the Captain Britain Corps being a multiversal entity (it is basically the Spiderverse movie's Spider Society, but done in the 80s) there may be some red tape around the use of Betsy. I hope there isn't though as I would like to see them in animation!
Kitty Pryde
Rachel's other big queer love interest in the comics is Kitty Pryde. Chris Claremont, the architect of what most people associate with the X-Men, has gone so far as to say that she is the "primal love" of Pryde's life and tried to imply that they had gotten married and had kids together in his epilogue for the X-Men brand, X-Men: The End. It's never been textual, but they are pretty darn gay in plenty of the Claremont stuff - including his Excalibur, the run that Kitty Pryde's design on the Episode 10 billboard is taken from.
Kitty Pryde is a complicated character when it comes to queerness. In 2020, Pryde kissed a girl and plenty of news publications ran stories about how she is finally canonically bisexual... and then, uh, nothing really happened in the comics? She has continued to be bi-coded since, but it doesn't seem like Marvel Corporate considered that kiss to be a coming out at all? Which is wild as it is, uh, a same-gender kiss, but she hasn't gotten to be in a Pride book or anything since then... I am unsure if '97 would be able to make it explicit when the lower-stakes less-widely-read comics are currently struggling to do so, but we will see?
Though speaking of Kitty Pryde being queer...
Illyana Rasputin
Cameoing in Episode 3 via Morph and appearing on the DoFP billboard as well in Episode 10, the marvellous Magik seems set to make her 97 debut! She's Kitty Pryde's OTHER roommate who she has a soulbond with. Yeah, uh, Pryde got two of those. We love that for her.
Like Rachel, she's also a long-queer-coded woman with a history of violence, having her autonomy taken away from her, and deep-rooted insecurities which Pryde uniquely is able to help her through...
I'd be surprised if either Illyana/Rachel or Pryde/Illyana managed to happen in this show, but this is one of my favourite X-Men pairings so I had to mention it... I am a sucker for soulmate "Our subtextual queerness gives us EXTRA SUPERPOWERS" stuff and Illyana and Pryde have had some truly S-tier moments like that that I'd love to see in animation. Honestly, I'd even take it if they were just "soulmates" and they played it in a campy Xena-y way too...
Concluding Thoughts
I feel somewhat mixed on the queer rep of 97 in general. The show is super bold politically and thematically, but feels below the level of queer representation projects like Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur or even Hulu's Runaways provided. The show thematically is so invested in queer experience, using mutant metaphor to tell a number of incredibly well-written and resonant queer stories via several characters (especially Sunspot), but it doesn't seem as interested in explicit direct queerness.
I'm optimistic we'll see more in the future seasons though... but we'll see if this post ages any better than my last one lmao.
#x men 97#x men 97 spoilers#morph#cipher#boom boom#northstar#pixie#iceman#rachel summers#betsy braddock#kitty pryde#illyana rasputin
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Interesting observation: the new Mean Girls was better LGBTQ+ rep than Bottoms
#lol and it's such a low bar#but mean girls had more than two characters canonically and explicitly gay with happy endings#no lesbian was beat up in this#the gay characters were sort of main characters#unfortunately Regina George is obviously not a lesbian in this. but imo she dresses like one. no cishet girl could have a wardrobe like tha#it was also funnier in my opinion in its own absurd ways#oh and uh Renee Rapp who plays Regina George is a lesbian irl so#oh also at least a handful of masc women just hanging out
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This was done specifically for me, because since day one(1) I have been headcanoning Gus as gay and now I have canon confirmation, can't wait for the Gustholomule kiss to solidify it 😁
#ignore me#toh#the owl house#gus porter#gustholomule#maybe im a little bitter that every bitch and their mom was climbing over each other to hc hunter as gay#and then got mad about him having acrush on willow and started being like 'god forbid a main male character is gay'#and i was like mf gus has been here since day fucking 1 and you have not given two fucking shits about him#none of you were out here hc gus as gay or pushing dana to make him gay or anything of the sort#gee i sure do wonder what the biggest difference between gus and hunter is 🤔🤔🤔#and gee i sure do wonder whats the difference between gustholumule and huntric 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔#could it be that both parties in gustholomule is two brown boys and huntric is two pretty twinky white boys???#whos to say#i am#i am to say#that is the reason#that is 100% the reason
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not to be gay on main but oh my god. oh my god.
#I THOUGHT MONTAGUE AND OSCAR AND CERBERUS WERE HOT AND THEN SHE SHOWED UP...#she calls me little mouse and epic fr just expects me to be normal about jt#im ready to pass away every time i interact with her#i would do anything for you queen#fortnite#fortnite artemis#ratkinggames#im sorry they went for my weakest link#why tf is everyone hot in this game i cant#they keep cooking with the character designs#btw yeah ratzattak camille is p much my main now#i alternate between a big handful of skins but she's my number one i love her sm#artemis has such peggy carter vibes you know ??? in her own sort of way but it appeals to my gay ass#augh sorry im done now
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hey if u guys r sad about ofmd and want another show with gay people to watch you should consider watching Deadloch. It’s really good it’s really really good uh it might get a second season if the creators decide to do that.
if you watch good omens you’ll be able to watch Deadloch they’re on the same service. Uhhhh One of the actors from ofmd is there shes one half of the main duo (the other half is played by Kate Box who’s an amazing actor and Dulcie is now one of my fav characters ever) gets to wear an open Hawaiian shirt for like 3 of the 8 episodes which is a bonus. It’s extremely gay and it’s fun and beautifully written and no queer characters die and it’s satisfying and funny and Please watch it I’m begging you please watch itPLEASE
#ofmd#deadloch#PLEASEEEEEE please Im begging Im on my hands and my knees PLEASE WATCH THIS SHOW#It’s not shy about being gay it practically opens with gay sex ok please pleaseee watch it#It’s got so many amazing characters every character is so well written it’s a detective satire that ends on a pretty openly anti cop note#The main characters work so well together and the actors have such good chemistry and the storytelling is so good and well done#Literally my only my singular criticism of the entire show is that I think the lighting in some scenes could be brighter so you can#Actually tell what’s going on bc it’s sort of hard to at certain points#THATS MY ONLY CRITICISM AT ALL ITS THAT GOOD#Ive watched it 10 times now I’m still finding new stuff and connecting things it hasn’t gotten old yet#It’s seriously like unironically a masterpiece of a show. I would like it just as much if everything else was the same but the characters#Were straight#Though given how much of it is tied to gay and specifically lesbian culture it would be sort of hard to do that LOL#but still. like hypothetically. If it was straight I would not like it any less I would still be just as crazy about it
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hi everybody! in case you did not know, xie lian, man who spent 800 years not even thinking about sex until someone came along who he was interested in and who was interested in him and took the time to be with him and go on silly little adventures with him and genuinely get to know him and be friends with him, is demisexual. just like. a public service announcement.
#just in case you didn't know. had to be said#talking#tgcf#xie lian#tian guan ci fu#demi xie lian#there better be content in that tag when i go into it later.#ace xie lian tag had like. four posts in it that were actually about him and one of them was mine#hiding this a little deeper in the tags but there is something to be said about mxtx's little habit of having her protags be Suddenly Gay#we are NOT looking at wwx getting put in the body of a gay teenager and suddenly being gay rn. we're not.#but when we talk about her books and (some of us talk about) her fetishization of gay men it's something that has to be said#where characters aren't really allowed to be gay until the main relationship is Happening and only with that one person#anyway. that said. something of the sort absolutely happened with xie lian when she was writing him#and with THAT said. what she did was unwittingly make him aspec. lol
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On my SECOND attempt at rewatching The 100 and yet again I am considering just. Not finishing it lmao Season 3 is painful enough already even ignoring what happens in 3x07, how the fuck am I supposed to survive four more seasons without flying into a rage for every single second of the experience
So tempted to just ask someone for a Clarke & Madi scenepack and never watch another minute of this dumbfuck show for the rest of my life because those two are like the biggest reason I agreed to finish the show in the first place 😭 Genuinely don’t care about anything else, the characters are shit except for a small handful, the storylines are shit the writing is shit this show is SHIT and I’m so bored of it. I’m happy for anyone who can enjoy it outside of Clexa but I don’t understand y’all one bit, I wish I was as joyful as you
#75% of the characters are unlikeable assholes what do you see in them fr#Is this some sort of straight people thing I’m too gay to understand#I can count on two hands the characters I like and most of them aren’t in the main cast lol#And the storylines… what??? So unrecognisable from its original plot#The show should’ve been 3 seasons and most of S3 should’ve been scrapped and rewritten#I’m not exaggerating when I say a lot of fics are better than the outcome cos wtaf were the writers smoking#Gtfo here with that AI bullshit go put it in another show#Me living the rage of 2016 all over again in 2024#I’m fine. I’m fine#seraph watches the 100#the 100#clarke griffin#lexa#clexa
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Can I say super quick that as someone who's played Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Sky through at least one and a half times that never once in my adventure did I ever not interpret the main character and their partner as being such close and dear friends and that same sentiment being shared between the main character and Grovyle?
#they are platonic besties who love each other deeply#guildmaster wigglytuff and chatot are gay and what grovyle and dusknoir has is Complicated#but i never interpreted any of main character's relationships as anything beyond close and dear friendship#that is no more and no less important than a romantic sort of love#it's love nonetheless and maybe it's because i projected myself onto the main character but#idk those were the vibes i was getting from it lol#i can understand how others interpreted it differently#ship to your heart's content
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Not to ramble on main (Just kidding i will not be stopped) but. Anyone else ever get the Fear irt branching off into making more Mature:tm: content? Like... OK maybe its just the crumbling state of media analysis on the internet right now (....+ The fact that most of the followers on my art account are from. Uh. Teh kirby fandom DHDBDJDHDBF NO OFFENSE TO KIRBY FANS its just. Very different target audience) but i always just get very worried about people completely misreading my intent in darker works or being frustrated and considering it Bad writing if things.. Dont work out well for the characters
DONT THINK THIS POST WILL GAIN TRACTION BUT JIC IT DOES THIS IS NOT FOR PR/SH/PPERS. FUCK OFF
#Kernel Panic#Writing#I mean. Maybe im just not giving people enough credit here but#1. Fandomization of everything is a curse#2. I kind of used to think liek this.#Like. When i was leaving mmy 'YESS ANGST AND WHUMP MUHAHAHA PHASE'#I just kinda ended up going in the opposite direction for a bit? Soet of?#Like i was still writing and consuming technically Dark work#With lotsa gore and mental illness stuff and all that#But everything still had this sort of... YA Good guys have to always be right and win#And bad guys have to always be wrong and lose#Mentality going on in my brain.#Honestly like. Dont get me wrong i love mob psycho 100 but the 2018 state of the fandom ruined my analysis abilities for a while#Not the shows fault or anything. Its more that Everyone was desperately trying to avoid being A Bre/ch of Trust#Without realizing what the actual Issues with that fic and its derivatives were#Like. Yeah it was a darkfic. Sure. But everyone acted like that was the be-all end-all of its issues#When the main thing was that its entire SETUP was plothole in itself#+ The gay stereotypes + infantilization of a very autistic coded character#And a lot more honestly. Lol side psa ab/t by ph/ntomrose69 sux#But. I havent touched the fic in years so maybe like. It Had a happy ending or something#I mean. That was always the implication tbh#But things can HAVE happy endings and still just feel... Very gross and pointless#Thats something i wish people (including past me) realized more tbh. Just because it ends with everyone being happy found family#Does not mean the whump and angst was well written or well handled.#Ok done for now sorry @ people who read tags#EDIT REGARDING ABOT: Oh my god how could i have nearly forgotten the ritsu thing </3#That is a fine example of being Pointlessly Weird. Like i GET it was going for a blood sacrifice thing or whatever i Guess.#but Why Like That.#Like did it ACTUALLY have a reason to be like that or did OP just think the ''''aesthetics'''' of it would be CoOl and SCAARY
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Okay, I saw someone say that Nimona, while being good representation, “didn’t take the big step forward in queer rep that everyone says it did”.
That is wrong. So wrong, my dude.
Yes, an explicit and open queer relationship in children’s cartoons is not new, per ce. Hell, just this year, two popular kids’ cartoons had the main character in an open, adorable, plot-based queer romance. But this is different for a few reasons.
Reason number one, it isn’t left in suspense. Yes, they had that split for three odd weeks, but they started the film as a couple. One of the very first scenes is them together as a couple, Ambrosius saying he loves Ballister, them holding hands, Ballister leaning on Ambrosius’ shoulder. Ambrosius says he loves Ballister three times during the film, and none of them are any more than halfway in. It’s very clear, from their very first interaction, that they are an established relationship, which isn’t something I’ve seen...at all in other animation.
Secondly, they are the plot. Ambrosius not believing Ballister, Ambrosius cutting off Ballister’s arm, Ballister trying to get the video to Ambrosius - this is what drives the plot. In any other children’s animation with queer relationships, the relationship is not the main focus. Even The Owl House, which is so amazing with its constant representation, would still make sense if Luz and Amity never happened. But Nimona’s plot wouldn’t make sense without Ballister and Ambrosius’ relationship. It, quite simply, can’t be erased. It could work as a friendship, yes, but that’s the point. They could have just been two close friends that fell on opposite sides of a fight, but they weren’t. They were two lovers that fell on opposite sides of a fight.
Thirdly, they aren’t sanitized for “family viewing”. An emerging trend in children’s animation is to only have mlm relationships as fathers to make them seem more “family friendly”. With the exception of Kipo, there really isn’t many tv shows or films that places light upon an mlm relationship. And if it does, it'll be a teen relationship because teenagers being queer tends to come across as less “dirty” and more “innocent”. But Goldenheart is none of these things. They are adults without the mollifying aspect of having a family. And on top of that, they fight. They wield swords and they get bloody and they shoot at things and get angry and yell. They aren’t “clean” and “innocent”.
As well as this, they are in a film. Films are far more accessible than tv shows. You have to watch twenty seven episodes before Lumity in toh is canon. Troy kisses Benson on the eleventh episode of Kipo. And there are two hundred and eighty three episodes of Adventure Time before Marceline and Bonnie kiss. But with a film, the queerness is much more forward - especially in Nimona, where it’s literally the second scene. Animated films hardly ever display queer relationships, but Nimona did.
Finally - they aren’t perfect. I don’t know about you, but three weeks of thinking your boyfriend/maybe ex is a murderer? Doesn’t sound like a healthy few weeks to me. I have only seen big relationship arguments portrayed in straight relationships in cartoons - think Star Vs The Forces Of Evil - whereas queer relationships either have the massive fight prior to being canonically gay - She Ra - or have conflict, not arguments, that are dealt with quickly - Dead End/The Owl House. But Goldenheart? Goldenheart suffers. Their relationship is pushed to such extreme boundaries as for them to be pretty much exes throughout most of the movie. And yet, they are clearly healthy, happy and very much in love at the end.
TL;DR - Nimona is amazing with the queer representation, and it is a milestone for LGBTQ+ cartoons. Not only is the relationship romantic for the entire movie, the plot is driven by Ambrosius and Ballister’s sort-of-break-up. In short, they are treated the same way straight people are. They have flaws, they have massive arguments, they have plot importance, they have backstory. They are in love. And that’s what matters more than anything else.
#cedar crap#wow I didn't mean for this to be so long#nimona#nimona netflix#queer rep in media#queer rep in animation#goldenheart#ballister boldheart#ballister blackheart#ambrosius goldenloin#and I didn't even touch on the blatant queer flags in the background
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you said Bury Your Gays will contain some ace representation? Without spoilers, could you elaborate more on that? This ace buck will be very excited if true.
it is very difficult to talk TOO much on this without spoilers so i will trot out words carefully.
there are three main characters and one of them is ace and aro. in talking to ace/aro buds i found that many buckaroos were tired of a sort of quiet and reserved ace stereotype and this character is basically the opposite of that. she is also up there with my favorite characters i have ever written actually
here is where it gets tricky without spoiling anything. i will say that the concept of ace representation itself is addressed in the book in a very important way with a very important resolution/message. i can also say that all the ace early readers have been very moved by it and given very high marks in this way, so this proves love to me i am very glad
in my most honest and objective way i can muster i think YES asexual buckaroos will be very happy with bury your gays so give it a preorder if you are interested buckaroo
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As much as I enjoy "[Character] did nothing wrong" jokes, I really do enjoy the fact that the MXTX main characters and their love interests very much did some wrong things, actually. Like, yeah, some of their horrific crimes or even just mild wrongdoings are down to impossible circumstances and personal damage that was caused by someone else, but they all have agency and guilt and have to deal with the sort of interpersonal conflicts where no one is the winner. It is so, SO humanizing to have them be imperfect and rude and petty and selfish sometimes! They have hurt people unintentionally and intentionally! It makes their good qualities and efforts to improve shine all the brighter!
And also, I really love it as an aspect of queer romances specifically. If Wei Wuxian or Shen Qingqiu or Xie Lian had never done anything wrong in their lives, then the fact that they fall in love with men might carry an unintentional "look at these poor, innocent gay people who are being mistreated for no reason" message, which could carry the unintentional suggestion that queerness can be "earned" with good behavior. No, these characters have fucked up and have fucked up BADLY. There are such fascinating themes in these books about loving people who are seen as monsters or have done monstrous things, about having done unforgivable things yourself, about questioning what exactly is "sinful" and what you do with your life after your good reputation in "good society" has been utterly ruined.
This also brings up themes about "deserving". None of the characters are loved because they necessarily "deserve" to be loved, but because someone chose to love them. They get happy endings not because they "deserve" them - lots of characters in these stories "deserved" better and died anyway - but because they fought for them and were lucky. And I personally find that more interesting and touching than "[Character] did nothing wrong".
Keep the "[Character] did nothing wrong" jokes coming, though. They're often very funny. I especially love it when they're about characters who very obviously did many things wrong on purpose and aren't sorry about it in the slightest.
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“Will can move on and find someone else” do people not understand that this is a TV show? Of course if this were real life, there would be opportunity for Will to move on and be happy without dating Mike. But Will is a character. And the story has been set up in such a way that for Will, in the canon timeline of the show, it’s Mike or no-one. It’s Mike or rushed, under-developed, last minute/epilogue love interest. Will is in love with Mike specifically for a reason, and that was a storyline built up over years. He is not getting a fulfilling romance with some never-seen-before guy in the jam-packed finale season of the show. It’s Byler or they made a calculated decision to have the only gay main character, who is shown to be more painfully in love than any other person on that show, suffer gut-wrenching heartbreak and for what? When every other character has gotten a multi-season reciprocal romance plot.
Season 5 is the last chance they’ve got to offer him satisfying payoff for all that he’s been through, and of all characters, Will is the absolute last one who needs a “sometimes things don’t turn out the way you wanted but you'll be okay” message to conclude his story because he’s never gotten what he wants. His existence on this show has been traumatic event after traumatic event. They’ve set Mike up as the one thing Will loves and wants more than anything, and denying him that after all that he’s been through is unnecessarily cruel storytelling. (Obviously this is not at all to say that Mike is some sort of prize for Will, Byler perfectly intertwines with and completes Mike's individual character arc too, which is why it should and will (fingers crossed) happen).
Some guy called Will didn’t just randomly fall in love with his best friend and "oh it’s completely fine if Mike rejects him because there’s someone out there who’ll be right for him"—writers put him in this situation! Writers actively chose to double down on his “unrequited” feelings in the penultimate season! Writers put him through hell, physically and emotionally, and specifically relating to his sexuality. Then they slowly but surely revealed that he is pining for this one thing, this person that brings him strength and inspiration and hope, and people think him being told no that kind of happiness is not for you sorry kid, but hey at least your loved ones don't hate you for being gay, who could’ve predicted that? If you're lucky we’ll even let you smile at random cute guy in the epilogue! is acceptable let alone good storytelling? Will deserves better than a “there’s vague happiness in his future” ending, and we should absolutely expect better.
#byler#I've been trying to word this right for a couple of days#just my absolute least favourite anti take
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3.3k words summarizing queliot if you've never seen the magicians. or if youve seen it and you want to indulge in my insane criticisms. lord touch his mind
okay so the magicians was a tv show about a bunch of post grads learning magic in magic university then discovering that the fantasy world from a kids book series was actually real and the Beast of that world was out to get them. WHO GIVES A FUCK. the crazy people were focused on the relationship btwn main character quentin coldwater (depressed, heart on his sleeve, surprise sex maniac who is new to magic and loves those books) and gay best friend eliot waugh (substance addicted (big surprise!!), gay trauma, named after evelyn waugh oh you know…) they form a friendship and it’s weirdly touchy and close. eliot keeps trying to seduce quentin but it’s never serious. i dont even think quentin notices. anyone remember the “lets not talk” scene? he was about to fuck that sad man. anyway this tension was actually fulfilled by the end of the 1st season with a drunk threesome including the two and their best friend margo. they at least kiss and cuddle and MAYBE sucked dick if the ghost of his girlfriend who haunts him later is to be believed (which i do #cockinhismouthsunday).
at this time articles that were like “THIS SIFI SERIES IS PROUDLY BISEXUAL” were coming out which. lol. lmfao! quentin never had any sort of queer identity. not even a hint of it. the homophobia of the show started with the regurgitation of the “sad drunk lonely sex-crazed” gay man trope with eliot, then the “everyone is fluid but no one actually has same sex attraction” trope, THEN by sidelining and killing off almost every gay or trans character, THEN THE QUENTIN THING. and the quentin thing turned people insane. let’s see why.
so after the threesome, eliot and quentin continue having a good friendship. there is some tension that isnt present with margo which sure is a choice… but it is resolved by a heartfelt crowning ceremony nd hug. oh theyre kings of the magic land now btw. eliot and q are pretty much separate from this point on xcept for certain episodes/moments. it is strange they dont have any storylines together. but love finds a way. at some point a version of eliot sacrifies himself for quentin. if u look at the scene it is on instinct it is crazy. then they reunite at the end of s2 but it’s all business really. the show was really involved w its nonsense plot.
anyway season 3. hahaha. so like i said theyre separate most of the show past s1. this is true in this season xcept for episodes 305 and 313 (with some notable moments in between). the plot of this season is that they have to go on quests to collect keys. the creature that gives eliot this plot calls quentin his “brother of the heart”. ok! when they see each other for the first time in a while in 304, they hug in a very sweet way :) look at this photo from bts during that scene :) i have it framed
after a series of other quests, 305 turns out to be the Eliot and Quentin quest! finally a story with the two! the quest is for the “time key”, which is fabled to be given to whoever solves the mosaic puzzle in fillory (magic world). the puzzle? they have to arrange 100s of tiles in a way that depicts “the beauty of all life”. quentin is very excited about it. eliot is happy to hear him infodump. they eventually get pushed into fillory to solve the mosaic. turns out they were also sent DECADES in the past. there might have been a way out but they were dead-set on solving the mosaic and getting their key. so they get to work. they live in a cottage attached to the mosaic and they spend hours, days, months on it. just the two of them and the mosaic. this episode is called “a life in a day” which is so perfect you wonder why the writing couldnt be that good within the show.
at the 1 year anniversary, quentin kisses eliot. and eliot kisses him back. and you wonder woah what does this mean?! well keep wondering girl because this tv show does not care to explore any of that. it chugs on and eliot and q fight about “living their lives there” and quentin gets a Wife and has a child with her and then she DIES (leaving her as a narrative incubator rather than an actual character, which is very in line with the sexism of the show). and they grow up and decades pass and the child grows old enough to leave and it seems eliot co-parented him but (again) the tv show doesnt care to show you that. and this whole time theyre working on the mosaic. years and years. eventually they grow old. it’s just the two of them. until eliot dies. quentin goes to bury him in the mosaic plot and he finds a special little tile. he places it in the mosaic. he gets the key. the puzzle is solved. “the beauty of all life”. but quentin is alone. his life companion is gone. and that’s the last we see of him.
we go back in time til before they enter fillory. their friend stops them and she has the key through time shenanigans and they never live that timeline. UNTIL!!!!! they do. they remember it all. what does decades (50 yrs btw) of living happily together mean for them?!? FUCK ALL APPARENTLY!!!! because the next episode (306 if yr keep track) they mention it ONCE AND NEVER AGAIN. and there is so much beneath the surface with the looks and the line that mentions it (“go be life partners with someone else” eliot says jokingly in a manner that shouldve been the catalyst to quentin’s magic-induced suicide spiral later that episode).
ok quentin does mention it once more to his dying dad. but nothing about his Male Life Partner Of Fifty Years. Nothing. they dont even talk about it with their best friends, leading one to believe they just kept it a secret . which. okay.
okay. so theyre apart til the last episode of the season. and quentin decides to sacrifice himself by locking himself in a cage with a monster for all of eternity. he says the quest prepared him for it which is yikesss. eliot refuses. but quentin insists. they travel to the prison (he gets back together with his gf during this trip btw they had been apart that season after some shit. one of their worst writing decisions i hate this stupid ass cockroach relationship). quentin almost exchanges himself. then eliot shoots the monster. dooming them all.
so the monster doesnt die. instead he possesses eliot. and that becomes the story for season 4. at first quentin and co think eliot is dead. and it’s devastating lol. an interesting thing is that the monster was so. touchy with quentin. unbearably so. it’s such a perverse reflection of eliot’s touch. which is sorta pointed out by quentin in this quote (paraphrase) “i know it’s not eliot. but he has his face and his eyes…”
anyhow 405. hahahahahaha. so this episode it’s revealed eliot is alive but trapped in his own head. and to get out for a moment and tell his friends he’s alive, he needs to confront his most terrible most shameful memory. the whole episode is him trying to figure out what it is. meanwhile, quentin and co are setting up a plan to kill the monster. and quentin breaks up with his gf (lol). in a deleted scene that WAS shown in promo they argue about the monster. and quentin says “im team eliot”. lol
anyhow, eliot’s hit a dead end. he cant figure the worst thing that’s happened in his life. then his memory of quentin (theyve been hangin out) says he’ll “sacrifice” himself if he had to. eliot smiles and says “i know youre just a memory… but youre a very generous one.” and quentin says— (im reciting this from memory btw all of this has been from 4 years of NON STOP thinking about it) quentin says “well you sacrifice for the people you love” and he gives eliot a VERY pointed look. and then it dawns on eliot. and the guilt is instantly palpable.
hahahahha. hahaha. hahahahahaha. okay so eliot goes to the memory he knows is the worst thing he’s ever done. his most traumatic memory, after a lifetime of violent homophobia and bad choices. the person possessed before him described this memory as being “the day he left home”.
the memory? the day they remembered their past lives. did it happen? fifty years. it happened.
theyre sat under a wedding arch (that was the b plot of the episode lol). it’s beautiful. eliot watches the memory play out, standing in front of the seated figures. the guilt. the guilt.
outside, the tension is building. the plan to kill the monster is in motion. quentin has to coax him to a certain spot. he has to look at him as he kills his best friend.
eliot doesnt know this but he gets anxious watching it play out. there is a certainty that this is it. the first time viewer has no idea whats going on. we never saw the direct aftermath of them remembering. we always assumed there wasnt anything.
well a year after 305 aired, a yr after thinking THAT WAS IT, they recontextualize Everything.
it is worth saying here that in the promo interviews leading up to season 4, quentin’s and eliot’s actors were sussing it UP. quentin’s at some point talks on q’s queerness, saying it was the one aspect of his life he didnt feel anxious about.
well
what happens is that quentin asks eliot for a relationship. remember how it was quentin who first kissed eliot? it happens again. heart on his fucking sleeve. i can recite this scene pretty well so im going to fucking do it:
did it happen? fifty years. it happened. it was sort of beautiful. it really was. i know this is gonna sound dumb but … us. i mean we work. we know it cause we lived it. who gets that proof of concept? (eliot smiles uneasily) we just got injected with fifty years of memories so i get that youre not thinking clearly. no im just saying… what if we gave it a shot, would that be so crazy? (eliot looks down, worried and thoughtful. quentin smiles RADIANTLY it is BLINDING) why the fuck not?
editors opinion: quentin is such a beautiful person. to be so truthful about something so scary is unthinkable. especially in context of him being so hopelessly and quietly in love his childhood best friend, and his whirlwind romance with previously mentioned gf, and all the tragedy he endured with these two. but this is someone who loves with his whole heart. what was he supposed to do? contain it?
then eliot hardens.
i know you and you arent… whats the matter? dont be naive it matters. (pause) q i love you but… that isnt me and that definitely isnt you. not when we have a choice. (quentin looks away. he wipes his eye) oh. okay. sorry.
and silence. the real eliot, the eliot who isnt the memory, looks on. tired and angry, he speaks to himself:
what the hell is wrong with you? what the hell are you doing? someone Good and True… Loves you. yeah it was a little crazy but you knew. you knew this truly mattered. and you just SNUFFED IT OUT.
then he looks to the memory of quentin. soft as the clouds:
q. im sorry. i was afraid. and when im afraid i run away.
then he kisses him. and he hits you with the thesis of the episode:
if i ever get out of here q… know that when im braver it cause i learned it from you.
well
thats his most traumatic memory. he is granted passage to consciousness. what is the first thing he sees? quentin. the real quentin.
q? (smiles) q (laughs) it’s me. it’s eliot. ok come on no games. it’s eliot. i said no games. (eliot looks around, worried as all hell) fifty years (he walks towards q) who gets proof of concept like that? what? peaches and plums motherfucker (this is the symbol to their mosaic life) im alive in here. (eyes as wide as saucers, heart in his throat) eliot…
and he ruins their plans of killing the monster. “eliot’s alive.”
then the episodes keep rolling. “eliot eliot eliot. why do you care so much about him?” “because i do.” and “wow i love that plan. except the part where it doesnt save eliot.” quentin gets back with his gf for reasons only the devil knows. but fine ok whatever quentin and eliot will HAVE to talk post-saving. even if the writers ignore it once more they have some kind of relationship. and they do save eliot in the finale! you know who they dont save? lmfao
quentin dies. in a manner that many including myself found weird and unsatisfactory and suicidal. and he never gets to know how eliot feels. never. he’s just gone. their story means nothing 💯
editors note: this ending broke me. i was using the show as a depression crutch, so a fate so hopeless ruined me. cant blame the show for my mistake but being so technically bad certainly didnt help.
well when the show came back for its next (and final lol) season, they did attempt closure for eliot and quentin. for some reason this was all contained in 3 episodes, most of it in the third (503) but what the fuck ever. it has its moments.
the episode is basically about eliot and alice (q’s gf i dont think ive mentioned her name. sorry alice) going on a mini quest up a treacherous mountain for grievers to return a piece of quentin’s soul back to the underworld. their fights are soooo funny. toxic lover vs almost-lover.
alice at some point says “well he was MY boyfriend this is MY pilgrimage and you just TAGGED ALONG” and (blood obviously boiling) eliot goes “right, because he meant nothing to me”. and this highlights something so sneakily homophobic about this whole affair. quentin and eliot’s relationship never mattered to the narrative as much as all the other straight relationships, especially quentin and alice’s. like i said, they would separate for entire seasons. you will be happy to know that not 1 episode goes by without quentin and alice conflicting and making up conflicting and etc. i dont understand how quentin and eliot’s relationship wasnt important enough. they were best friends, they kissed multiple times and had sex AT LEAST once if the mosaic subtext isnt considered. and the mosaic… it isnt just that they lived together for 50 yrs and raised a child and were happy, something they couldnt quite grasp in their old lives… they achieved the beauty of all life. that is a monumental achievement that shouldve changed not only their lives, but their stories.
the thing about the confession is that it wasnt planted in s3. talking about 405, the writers said they came up with it while working on that episode. it was essentially a retcon. though its inclusion explains why they didnt talk about it literally, it doesnt excuse the narrative outright ignoring it. it DEFINITELY doesnt account for why it ignored the rest of the SAME SEASON it was ESTABLISHED IN. if this was quentin and alice, they would be talking about it nonstop. and guess the fuck what when they get back together it is *non stop*.
SO. 503. they are on their pilgrimage. tensions build. eliot hallucinates quentin’s voice (it’s a soundbite from the mosaic when eliot dies which is depressing). they meet another traveller who is grieving his long dead boyfriend.
the traveller asks who theyre grieving and alice goes My Boyfriend and eliot looks away and says he knew him as a friend and it’s so sad it makes me want to die. why did they invent new exciting ways for gay people to be ashamed of who they love. i hate this show.
anyway the traveller talks about his boyfriend and how he was a magician who died young and how his dreams were haunted by him. and eliot is listening so intensely you want to jump hale appleman for being so good at this acting thing. alice goes to sleep and leaves the two alone. then they really start talkin:
(the traveller asks) have you ever had love? (eliot smiles small, hesitant) love…? yeah love. (pause) the friend we’re putting to rest. (traveller is delightfully shock) wasnt just a friend.
truly truly truly cant describe to you how much it physically pains me that it took 2 seasons and for one of them to die and a conversation with a stranger to get to this point. why wasnt this always part of the narrative. why does this only matter now after 2 yrs of fans badgering you about why this isnt part of the fucking show despite BEING PART OF THE FUCKING SHOW! it is dead obvious this was never the intent so even with something that should feel right feels wrong because the show never wanted it. it never wanted quentin to be in love with eliot. but it doesnt make sense if he isnt. i hate this show.
the convo continues 🙄:
does she know? oh god no. a torrid secret affair. (eliot looks away) no, nothing like that.
and i wish eliot was given a proper story. i wish i knew what was going on in his head through all of this. i wish i wish.
so it is revealed that quentin and eliot “had love” and that eliot is keeping it a secret (a revelation considering they werent intimate on screen past the 1 yr anniversary, they were only ever referred to as best friends by cast and crew, AND even what they were was obscured in the confession scene. and their feelings didnt matter past 405 fuck this world). this is huge. it should be huge. eliot’s first arc is about how he cant fall in love until he does and gets his heart broken. quentin’s stories are so wrapped up in alice that having another love interest should complicate that entirely. it doesnt.
the climax of the episode is when eliot expresses difficulty of letting go of quentin and alice says “he was your friend” and eliot replies (quick as if not meaning to) “he wasnt just my friend.” and wowww. how cathartic. the first time in the history of the show they talk about it. 5 seasons btw.
and eliot tells her about the mosaic and how “we loved each other for a really really long time.” and how he told him to fuck off and how he died for him and how he was never able to talk to him again. he just died.
and that part is supposed to be cathartic too. it feels cathartic for eliot the character at least. but to me the Viewer. i was sick of how they were trying to appeal to MY thoughts of what he should be feeling. as if trying to placate me. cuz if it was soo important it wouldnt just been solved after this episode. he DGAF about quentin after this. i dont get it. why cant they write a proper story.
well one line that stuck with me and i truly felt was this:
alice: he was pretty in love with you
eliot: i wouldnt say that
alice: .. i would
and then eliot looks at her the most devastated a man can look.
thats it. that’s quentin and eliot. a heartfelt and final fuck this show. the fic goes crazy esp the 2019 shit.
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random question but i came across a post of yours where you talked about how mark oshiro sort of erased an aspect of nico's ADHD by making a joke about how he only liked mythomagic cards because he's gay and there are hot guys on the cards, and then TSATS also seemed to really downplay the themes of neurodivergence in the series. and it made me wonder if you have any thoughts on how the show has portrayed the demigods' ADHD and dyslexia so far? i've seen some people say that the show also downplayed it a lot, and i'm inclined to agree... which feels really weird considering that rick's own son's neurodivergence was specifically a major inspiration for him writing the series. but if i recall correctly a lot of scenes showcasing that in the first book were taken out of the show.
Oh absolutely, a lot of scenes and general discussion about adhd/dyslexia were removed in the show (and some of the disability-coding in general - i appreciate the change they made with making Chiron disabled based on his mythos rather than just using a wheelchair as a disguise, but i wish they had kept Grover's crutches in a similar manner honestly) - I've made a couple of posts discussing it: here, here, and this reblog is relevant to my opinions about the matter. There's probably some other stuff in my pjo tv crit tag.
I think the main sentiment i have regarding it - which i've seen a couple of other people mention as well - is how much the show ignores or outright removes and downplays Percy's personal struggles with his disabilities to instead emphasize Sally's experiences instead, particularly in manners of her taking out her stress on Percy - which alongside being completely antithetical to Sally's role in the books, is pretty ableist and why I continually compare show!Sally to Autism Speaks Parents. Autism Speaks tends to make an emphasis on the struggles of the parents of autistic children rather than treating autistic individuals like a person experiencing their own struggles. One of the major points of Sally's character (and later Paul) in the books is that she's an incredibly accommodating parent and works hard to make sure Percy is supported when he's struggling with his disabilities, because he's not been able to find that accommodation elsewhere. That's part of why Sally is such a great mom in particular, and is intentionally supposed to directly contrast Annabeth's home life struggles with her parents having difficulty navigating how to provide that same level of accommodation to help support her (and how Annabeth finds that accommodation at CHB instead, because that's the metaphor that CHB is supposed to represent - an appropriately accommodating system they can rely on, and then exploring how that's still a flawed system and looking at how disabled kids/demigods fall through the cracks and how to change the system to better support them).
The show also almost completely ignores Percy's ADHD/dyslexia experiences in general after the first episode. I was honestly really happy with, in the first episode, how clearly Percy's poor experiences in the American education system, particularly relating to his neurodivergence, have informed his reaction to situations such as people trying to tell him he's a demigod in coded language. It was essentially the perfect update to something i've discussed in the past here, about how the original "all demigods have adhd/dyslexia because it's secretly SUPERPOWERS" thing was presented as the basis for the series and why that teaching/parenting style fell out of favor. We see Percy in e1 acknowledge how dismissive of his struggles it is to constantly just be told he's "special" - and we even get explicit acknowledgement of how that description is used aggressively and for ostracization (from Nancy), which is extremely true to the experiences of kids who grew up with that teaching/parenting structure. But then we get to episode 2 and... all the acknowledgement of ADHD/dyslexia/etc is gone. We get at most a one-off acknowledgement from Luke that demigods are all neurodivergent and that's it. Pretty much nothing else for the entire rest of the season, save for flashback scenes that only emphasize Sally's experiences, not acknowledge Percy's. No further acknowledgement of Percy's dyslexia, or Annabeth's, or anything about their ADHD, or even Percy's completely removed PTSD (which we know for sure because of both writer commentary [see: that second post i linked about the LA Times article] and Percy's total lack of reaction to Mr. D). Nothing.
It was extremely disheartening to say the least, having such a strong start and it evaporating completely, and I fully agree with you.
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okay y'all seemed to like the last one so here's a few more Horizon 3 thoughts:
Aloy won’t die. It would completely upend the series’ themes and just be really nihilistic.
Since Nemesis is a gestalt entity I think it’s a safe bet that we’ll see Sam Witwer, Carrie-Anne Moss, etc again. I’m curious how they’re going to do it because at least structurally, it’s basically a reaper. Maybe it’ll use different Avatars when communicating like the Leviathan in ME3.
It's gonna take some work to make a flashback/dream/vision not contrived but I would love to see Varl and Rost again. I think we deserve that.
Minerva is gonna have its work cut out for it blocking access to both the dormant Faro Swarm and the ZD terraforming system.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Nemesis has some sort of corruption function that becomes the equivalent of the corruption in HZD. It would be a really fun tech showcase if GG uses Zenith nanotech for machine corruption and leans into mechanical body horror.
If we’re going to Ban-Ur I really really hope they do the work to make the Banuk less problematic and more fleshed out as a culture. A quasi-Spartan society absolutely would not survive in an extreme environment, *especially* without megafauna to hunt. The Banuk characters are lovely and well-written; they deserve a society as well thought out as the Utaru or Carja. I’m honestly fine if there’s retcons or revamps to the cultural lore because the whole “outsider barges in and becomes chief” is rooted in racist, colonial tropes and we just don’t really need that imo.
The most recent footage of Death Stranding 2 (also running on Decima) has me SO excited for the visuals. GG’s gonna knock it out. The facial rendering and animation that Kojima Productions are doing looks industry-peak and I’m sure GG’s gonna match that. Aloy’s Gay Panic™️ scene on the beach in HBS is already top-tier nonverbal storytelling through animation. Digital Foundry actually just posted a really cool tech breakdown of the current Decima engine. I’m especially excited about the environmental stuff. The ocean simulations in HFW are already incredible and I hope they increase verticality in the world. I can’t wait to see the Sacred Lands in current gen graphics.
I really love Kotallo’s DIY arm and it’s so so important to his development but Beta and Gaia now have access to Zenith nanotech, maybe give your buddy a sick upgrade hmm?
Speaking of, I can’t wait to see Beta come into her own. She’s one of the best parts of HFW and Aloy’s character absolutely shines in a sibling dynamic.
I wouldn’t get your hopes up for a romance mechanic. Everyone’s feelings on that aside, it would be really odd from a game development perspective to just overhaul part of how the narrative develops Aloy’s character in the last act of the story. Yeah, there are flashpoints but I would argue that the presence of choice in Horizon is smoke and mirrors- cosmetic at best. Kentucky Route Zero (which you should play) does something similar where the player is given a certain amount of control over the substance of individual conversations and scenarios and it does absolutely nothing to alter the plot, by design. I think it’s the same here - this isn’t really a choice-based RPG, the flashpoints don’t really affect anything plot-wise or for Aloy’s character development. Olin is still out of the story, Nil lives, Regalla still dies one way or another. Aloy’s character development is pretty firmly on rails (think Jin Sakai, not Shepard - you get to guide some momentary character reactions but that’s it). I don’t think HBS is a testing ground either - If they were gonna introduce a romance mechanic I think they’d just do it, and not spend two years making a direct continuation of HFW’s main quest and establishing a specific romance hard-baked into the plot, complete with multiple leitmotifs for the character relationship (which is something they haven’t done before afaik) just to introduce a side quest mechanic coming in 5 years. I genuinely can’t think of any game or dev that has beta tested a major alteration to upcoming game mechanics that way - it doesn’t really make any sense in terms of developer resources, and these games are extremely time-consuming to make. I know this is a thing a bunch of people want and I can totally empathize with that! I just think it’s probably not on the table.
I would bet money the series will bookend itself and the epilogue will involve a) the naming of Zo and Varl’s kid and b) Lis’ pendant.
Mostly I'm just looking forward to being surprised. One of my favorite things that Horizon does is use carefully established elements in the world to pull the plot in unexpected directions and keeping the world grounded while they lean into speculative science fiction. I can't wait to see what Guerrilla is cooking up
#horizon 3#horizon zero dawn#horizon forbidden west#horizon#hfw#aloy#guerrilla games#hzd#horizon burning shores#horizon theories#well not so much theories as observation and vague speculation#and some zesty takes#I love this world though#erend#sylens#varl#kotallo#beta#alva
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