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zeynatura · 9 months

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Ranting about Nucani

There is something I want to express and this fandom should know.

Nu: Carnival is a Harem game but unlike most games in the genre the relationships with MC are all canon within the same story, there are no "Routes", no "Alternate Universe/Timelines", it's all 1 Main Story where you get to gradually meet all the Characters who'll be your companions, in this game named Clan members, and all of them one way or another end up falling for Eiden (MC), which makes polyam relationship canon with Eiden as the center:

Like very few games have polyam representation, let alone a positive one, like yes the polycule it's very Eiden central but even then all the Clan Members interact with one another, as we see mainly in the time limited Events but also in the Main Story, and have friendly and amicable interactions, they rely on one another sometimes even without Eiden being involved.

But also, Aster and Morvay have a relationship established too since way before the events of the prologue of the game, Kuya and Quincy have hinted some sort of situationship (idk I don't care about Quincy and my knowledge about Kuya is limited to what happens in the story and events cause I have no limited SSRs nor have I read any of his Intimacy Rooms).

[Also if any of you knows of any other relationship that have been hinted at that i'm missing feel free to share, i specifically ask of you to refer to only canon, i know in fanon anything and everything is possible and sometimes we may be missperceiving some interactions between characters so i ask of you to take those rose tinted glasses off and see unfiltered canon, it's hard for me too ngl so dw]

All this started with some posts I saw about ppl feeling bad for Yakumo and/or Edmond to be "forced into a polyam relationship" when they are the "most romantic members" and "deserve a monogamous relationship", their words not mine, as if mono > poly , but also do you really think they're against it!?

One thing is being Clan Members against their will (which is all Huey's fault btw), having to work together to regulate the Altars' Essence (or their own) and then another one completely is involving themselves in a personal and intimate way with Eiden, which the latter they all did in their own terms and out of free will.

Also i wanna share one of the best and my fav scenes with Karu, which i know not everyone was able to experience it cause it's hidden in the Intimacy Rooms of a Limited SSR, but it expresses exactly why the polycule is consensual.

Context: Eiden has been worrying about forcing the Clan Members to be with him because he is the New Grand Sorcerer, against their will just because of Huey's magic that ties them together and the responsibility of Regulating the Altars and basically maintaining stability in the Klein Continent.

His worries began (at least that i noticed) in "Eerie Escapade" (Halloween Event), that was also the first time Garu got hurt while protecting Eiden and the first time Karu got mad at him and fronted to yell at Eiden (which is my another fav scene of Karu omg i love him so much i gotta go back and take screenshots of that but that's for another post), the second one being in "Army x Blood x Oath" (which are the screenshots i'll show u)

Because this are the Intimacy Rooms of Garu/Karu's Limited SSR this scene focuses on Eiden feeling guilty because Garu got hurt in the past (Halloween Event) and this time he lost his memory (temporarily, due to this event's story) and Eiden blaming himself for it all and wondering if they would be better off without him, but the same can and is applied to the rest of the Clan Members, seeing how Eiden met and approached Rei while respecting his privacy and independency even tho he's also a Clan Member and the newest introduced in the story, means that the Limited Events are also canon and part of the story because Eiden seems to be growing and learning from previous Events and showing that development in future Events and the Main Story.

Karu also mentions that Garu (prior to losing his memories) was also worrying about the same thing Eiden was, like 'what if Master (Eiden) stays with us just because of the contract with Huey? :c' and he calls them both idiots because they don't communicate and fronts to fix it! (Mighty Karu to the rescue)

And talking about "Eerie Escapade" that is also the event where Yakumo's possessiveness towards Eiden shows, i'll admit i haven't seen the last room but i feel like those people i mentioned before are using it as fuel to their idea, because if Yakumo is jealous of other Clan Members interacting with Eiden and "Wants him all to himself" that must mean he wants a monogamous relationship, right?

WRONG!

That just means Yakumo is a complex person that feels different emotions specially when it comes to the most important person in his life (Eiden) other than his grandparents!

And Yakumo feels guilty for having those feelings, not because of them being in a polycule and he not wanting to be in it, but because he has trauma and sees his desires and wants as selfishness and he would never allow himself to be selfish cause he doesn't want to hurt people, he's a people's pleaser! He lives with constant fear of hurting others like the Great Serpent did when it killed many (but apparently there may be more that meets the eye, because the current event hinted that the Great Serpent actually liked humans and took care of children ???)

And Yakumo dealing with those feelings along with his yokai powers as a descendant of The Great Serpent have been the main topic of his last 3 Limited SSRs, which is great because that means CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT~

Now unfortunately i cannot talk about Edmond's Intimacy Rooms as i'm missing ALL OF HIS SSRs (why do you hate me Edmond if ily) but from what i've seen he's also pretty happy being with Eiden, heck even HIS MOM is happy his son is with Eiden!

That's right, she's the first and only parent of the Clan Members that knows and approves of their relationship, if it weren't because most of them are orphan we could get many more... i wonder if Yakumo's grandparents are aware hmmm ... and we all know Olivine's parents are gonna HATE it xD and maybe Garu's wolf pack will approve of Eiden by the end of this event.

#i just realized i may not be the right person to talk about polyam relationships and representation #even if i'm open to polyamory while in a monogamous relationship currently #and i do my best to do my research about it and learn from polyam people #but then again i used to do the same with queer people before finding out i was queer #and neurodiverse people before realizing i am one too #and the most recent was autism :D #so maybe i'm not the wrong person to talk about it #also if any of you treat Garu and Karu as the same person when they're a system i will lose it #or worse when people don't acknowledge Karu #help me i love these pups with my life and i will protect them #aster and morvay relationship's nature is not for us to decide #but the fact is that they have one #nu carnival #nucani #canon polyamory #if you read all this i love you~#edit: i thought Morvay having multiple sex partner was obvious 🤔#but some ppl pointed it out so #yeah #the incubus has sex with many ppl besides Eiden and Aster all consensual #while Aster finds it annoying but also helpful Eiden think it's hot #big edit: nvm I AM THE RIGHT PERSON to talk about this as im ambiamorous #which means im happy both in a monoam and polyam relationships #so i am in the polyam spectrum and would love to have what these boys have

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sciderman · 2 months

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I swear I have read your big post regarding Peter Parker's neurodivergence and why it is best to avoid labelling him, but he definitely has a weird brain

Can't find it and feel kinda sad about it cuz I deeply related to it

i know exactly which post you're talking about and i can't find it either! i've raked through my archive, and it's just - nowhere to be seen. i think tumblr eated it (it happens.)

really, tumblr's search functionality is so so useless, i don't know what to tell you. there are plenty of keywords i can search to find it that post, but the search functionality actually just does not work!

undiagnosed audhd-addled peter parker, my darling, my light, my life, my everything.

i think peter parker's such an interesting creature to write, because a lot of people will point to a certain behaviour about him and say "this is an autistic thing, right?" but a lot of those behaviours are actually, in my head, tied to certain traumas in peter's life too.

people say "oh, the food thing, peter's a picky eater because he's autistic" and yes, absolutely. but also it's tied to his trauma with his parents.

peter gets overstimulated, and yes, it's an autism thing, but also he was bitten by a radioactive spider and his senses are dialled to 11.

it's a similar case i've found for myself, too – where a lot of friends i have kind of diagnose me because i have autistic traits, but actually - i'm hesitant to claim the label or pursue diagnosis because, actually, i know where these certain behaviours come from, and they come from certain traumas. there are events i can pinpoint in my life and say "yep. that's where this behaviour comes from."

so - i think there's a lot of overlap between trauma and autistic traits. the brain is very complex! i think the reason for that overlap is maybe as simple as the fact that people with autism and people with trauma are both doing the same thing - developing behaviours to protect themselves or soothe themselves. so - i think it's nice to be able to see a character like peter parker, who may or may not be autistic, but recognise behaviours in him and see yourself in him.

people who go undiagnosed for whatever reason - people who are really good at masking - so good, in fact, that they have no idea they might be on the spectrum - everyone and anyone at all can look at peter parker and recognise themselves. because i think we discredit the thought that every single brain does the same thing! develops certain behaviours in order to survive. every brain has that same software - we've just all been faced with different hardships that we need to overcome, and that's were all the differences come in.

autism is a spectrum, i guess - everyone falls into it to some degree. and i think events in your life probably push you along on it. but i don't know, i didn't study brain science. probably what i'm saying is very stupid and uninformed. of course there's brain chemistry involved. but i know people in my life living with autism and certain events in their life have exacerbated certain behaviours or made coping with it a lot more difficult. so maybe trauma is a catalyst.

#a lot of my traits have been exacerbated lately and i remember it was much easier for me before #and some of my friends have said “oh it's because you've been masking too long and now you're facing autistic burnout.”#and that made sense to me i think.#but then i found out about the stress thing. me overproducing stress hormone. and that's a very physical thing.#and that explains why i've been overstimulated more than usual lately. and why everything feels like too much.#and i wonder how many of these traits of mine are going to subside once i have lamar removed #and it makes me wonder a lot of things. and it's so weird how much your brain is tied to your biology.#i wonder how much i'll change. i wonder how i'll feel. i wonder if i'll still feel like me. i wonder how much me is me right now.#and how much of me is being altered by weird freaky hormones. who am i?? who will i be??#i'm almost looking at this as like. a superhero origin story of some sort. like this is my spider-bite moment. maybe.#will i be different? will i cope with things differently?? now that my body isn't fighting something anymore??#maybe i'll be normal. i don't know. i don't know.#i don't know what it'll mean for me.#but all of these things mean i relate to peter parker in a certain kind of way #i don't think you have to be diagnosed with autism to recognise and empathise with those traits i think #i think everyone can see themselves in peter. and i think that's the benefit of having characters that aren't diagnosed.#because there's so much overlap in the human experience. and certain feelings aren't exclusive to just one group of people.#peter has such a rich identity actually. it's an autistic thing. it's a queer thing. it's a jewish thing. it's a trauma thing.#there are so many overlapping parts of peter's identity that inform who he is and how he behaves and it's never just one thing.#it's a product of all of his things.#just like me! just like everyone.#so me? i guess i can be a million things. you can explain what i am in a million different ways.#a hundred different psychologists can all come up with different ways to explain why i be the way i be.#i don't think it's something that can be simplified.#sorry wow. i'm really going off here in the tags.#i hope people don't think i'm stupid. i don't know brain science. i'm just philosophising as usual.#sci speaks

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autistic-beshelar · 3 months

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ah yes dungeon meshi, the manga where an autistic man gets repeatedly bullied by people he thinks are his friends and not a single person supports him

#dont get me wrong i am enjoying this manga #but i'm failing to see how this is some great amazing autistic rep #like yeah laios is obviously autistic #and the struggles he has due to his autism are VERY relatable #but it's deeply uncomfortable that even the people closest to him are routinely awful to him #specifically for his autistic traits #and their bullying is almost always a joke #not a single person defends him #literally senshi is the only character that's never been cruel to him #well and farlyn but lbr she's also autistic and also has been in like half a chapter that ive read so far #maybe ive just not read far enough or not seen enough posts #but im not understanding why the fandom are treating it like amazing autistic rep and how it understands us so well #you could argue that the narrative tends to support laios's methods and way of thinking #but nothing else does #the scene with shuro was fucking awful to read tbh #'you're so annoying because you're autistic. how dare you think im your friend when you should have just guessed that i hated you'#and not a single person defends laios #or calls shuro out on what a fucking horrific way of treating a party member that is #like i dont know MAYBE you could have just said 'hey i don't really want to be friends'#maybe you could COMMUNICATE.#but no it's the autistic man who's the problem. for the crime of.... being too nice.#i don't have a problem with the scene.#i have a problem with the fact that shuro is framed as reasonable here. instead of utterly fucking vile.#i have a problem with none of the other characters sticking up for laios.#dungeon meshi #maybe ppl will start treating him better #i would like to continue reading #but if he continues getting bullied in EVERY fucking chapter as a 'joke' then idk man

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actmale · 3 months

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I went through all the Splatoon website and downloaded every* asset I could get

Don't ask me why I did this... I hardly know either

#mine #splatoon #splatoon dlc #splatoon 3 side order #splatoon 3 #agent 8 #I originally downloaded every piece of duct tape the website creators used but after downloading everything I found it really annoying #So I got rid of all of them #Also I do technically have a reason for doing all this #I have autism and compulsions and I just got a bunch of treats from my nintendo and I went on another kick of what my nintendo bgs do I-#not have yet? and then thought what if the website has assets that look like cool backgrounds #anyways a lot of the cool stickers on the website are also the stickers I got in the mail from nintendo which is cool #I'm currently doing everything I can every day to get my nintendo platinum points so I can get everything I didnt buy AND a second set of-#splatoon stickers so I don't feel bad putting them on things #Also I'm sure someone smarter than me has already put these everywhere and probably didnt spend two days doing this #but I'm not smart so this took me a while and maybe someone who is also not smart like me will like these being shared

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foursaints · 2 months

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why do you keep deleting asks. I feel crazy

sorry about that ;-; it's mostly for organizational purposes... i try to keep the blog mainly marauders-focused so i usually delete unrelated asks after a couple days (like the sleepover ones)!!!

#a #ephemeral limited edition content #I don't delete anything out of my inbox unless it's hate though! if that's what ur talking about #it's just that I have. checking rn. literally 300+ asks in there rn so i do not see all of them #my opinion on this topic is changing though. maybe I should let them stay. its the organizational autism literally

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moe-broey · 1 year

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Meanwhile I've also been rapidly succumbing to madness over these two and have a deep need to start over White 2 again

#pokemon #screaming crying throwing up nobody gets them like i do. trying to find anything abt them in the tags was a mistake.#like yeah hugh is a tryhard edgelord w anger issues but also he is the protag's BIGGEST hypeman #they're childhood besties they're probably always goofing off and egging each other on #they both probably rosa absolutely have/has undiagnosed autism #rosa is nonbinary in the way kirby is. i won't elaborate bc i don't even know what that means but it is SO real to me #maybe there's budding feelings there but MORE importantly they share a brain and have made a blood oath #they're just weird kids who are inseparable. to me.#trainer rosa #rival hugh #my art

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katsy-kitty · 28 days

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I live in constant fear of being annoying af

#anxiety #social anxiety #neurodiversity #neurodivergent #adhd #autism #depression #anxiety disorder #mental illness #autistic #the “are you mad at me” disorder #I don't want to live like this #but I'm so self-conscious and insecure at times that I literally don't know how to deal with this #I feel like I shouldn't be around people at all because I'm just a burden and an annoyance #and I know rationally that that's not true #I know that there are people who like me and value me #but the FEELINGS are something entirely different #it's probably because of my parents and shit #lol no surprise -- the usual shit #let's have a dysfunctional family because why not #and let them have kids #and #why am I even posting this #aaand the fear of being annoying creeps right back in through all the cracks in my self-confidence #so I'm trying to fight it by behaving against it #posting cringy shit #because it's my shit #because it's me #and maybe one day I'll learn #that it's okay to be me

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crispycreambacon · 3 days

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Maybe I am autistic.......

#Reflection/semi-vent incoming #I just ranted in my head about how I hate that people don't make their tone clear on the internet #And how the line between jokes sarcasm irony etc. and genuineness have been blurred so much #I just want people to be clear and upfront about their feelings... Then I thought “hang on isn't this what autistic people are on about”#OBVIOUSLY this isn't exclusive to autism (or even a symptom of neurodivergency)#I've just been.. thinking. I've always wondered ever since my irl friend asked if I've ever considered myself autistic #Let me tell you a secret dear friend: I've always considered it ever since I was a kid #But when I brought that concern up with my parents they laughed at me and made fun of me calling me an attention seeker #And I've been forcing myself to not even think of the possibility that I'm neurodivergent anymore #But... maybe. Maybe I am. It's so scary to think about using the language on myself #I just wish I could figure this out easily and get a clear yes or no. I wish this was easier.#chris p fried what?!

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mysecretdsmpblog · 3 months

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Hi I wanted to talk about your qsmp phil has did hc cause I love it but I didn't want to rb cause multiple of my moots have the disorder and as far as I'm aware I don't and i dont want to be offensive so sending an anon ask. I love it, I love it so much and he's so traumatized and kinda like me fr fr

I don't think there's anything wrong with reblogging or even creating headcanons that don't directly apply to your lived experience, if that's what you're asking.

#DID q!phil is open to everyone and so is every other headcanon i ever make #i think certain headcanons (like of stigmatized disorders and such) do require a bit of critical thinking (like 'would this interpretation #be a demonization of said condition') but ultimately i don't think that thinking or saying 'blorbo bleegus has autism (or whatever else)'#is offensive. even if the person saying it doesn't have said condition.#that said if someone WITH the condition says it's an offensive/rude headcanon maybe take another look. ask for a second opinion. idk #totally fair to ask for an opinion but idk what to tell you other than that DID q!phil approves this message: do whatever you want forever #qsmp philza #qsmp #qsmp headcanons #qsmp philza did

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baejax-the-great · 5 months

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Hi, I saw on one of your ao3 comments that you think Homers' Achilles is on the spectrum. This is a really interesting idea to me, but I don't know that much about autism - could you elaborate on why you think that? (Also, I think all of your fics are amazing ☺️)

Autism as a word and diagnosis did not exist in ancient Greece, and I have no idea if there would have been a similar concept about it (doubt it) or if more likely people with certain autistic traits would have been considered to have a certain type of personality. So for me to say that Homer deliberately wrote Achilles as "autistic" is a little tongue in cheek.

That said, reading the Iliad I did have a moment of "Ohhhh, dude's autistic I get it." Some people might look at my reasoning and say, "well, that could be a whole other thing with these other reasons," and that's fair. This is just how it came across to me and why.

Sense of justice/fairness. This is one of the more obscure autistic traits (that often gets misunderstood and shit upon by people), but it's how the book begins, so I'll start here. Autistic people are more likely to learn and follow rules to a T. This gets rolled into the trait of "rigid thinking" and has been related to autistic people's preference for solid routines. To think about where you lie with this trait, one example is the "walk" signal at a crosswalk. Some people jaywalk when the road is very clear and no one is around. Some people jaywalk when the road ISN'T clear because they don't give a fuck. And some people will wait for that light to turn white no matter what because that's what you are supposed to do and there are rules (although culture/country of origin will also affect how much relevance traffic lights have in your life).

This is a rule, but it has little do to with justice. So to figure out where you stand in terms of justice sensitivity, another metric is how angry you feel when you watch someone cut in line and not get punished for it. Some of us will sigh and move on with our life because dicks are everywhere, whatever, and some people will have a harder time letting go because this person broke a rule in an obviously unfair way, and they should be punished for that.

This trait does not mean that autistic people have a better sense of what justice is or what rules/laws are "just." That is all very subjective. But this trait does result in a stronger negative reaction to seeing those rules/laws violated.

Such as rage.

Achilles fits the bill here in both in terms of rigid thinking and his sense of justice. His reputation in the Greek tradition is as someone who was very educated. In fact, he is the most educated with regards to law and religion than the rest of the Achaeans thanks to his time with Chiron. More than that, he actually cared about what he was taught and was considered kind of a stick-in-the-mud in terms of believing that the armies should follow the rules and customs of their people at all times and that violating their own laws was bad, even if you really, really wanted to bang a hot chick.

When Agamemnon decides to take Briseis, he is breaking a Rule. The common interpretation of what happens here is that he has violated Achilles' pride and honor in doing so, and Achilles loses his shit. That's valid. To me it read a little differently. I mean, for one, Achilles is 100% correct in the first book. Agamemnon pissed off the gods in a way he shouldn't have bringing plague on everyone, and how does he solve this? By agreeing to do the thing Achilles told him to do to solve it and then immediately violating their customs to steal from Achilles, bringing down a plague of "Achilles is not going to help you anymore."

Achilles cries to his mom that he wants the gods to fuck over the Greeks to prove Achilles right, which is deeply immature, but also really makes sense to me. Like, Agamemnon did this shitty, illegal, rules-breaking thing, and he needs to feel the consequences of that action. Achilles isn't a god who can bring down a plague, but his mommy is, so get fucked, Agamemnon. It's Zeus time.

During the time Achilles is out of the fighting, he is routinely called hard-hearted, stubborn, and other words to indicate he will not be swayed, which again speaks to his rigidity of understanding how things should be done.

The Way Achilles Talks About His Emotions. Achilles very clearly states what he is feeling throughout the book, and he often restates it. We get it, bro. You're mad. And then sad. Really, really sad. While this is almost definitely for the audience to understand his feelings and just how deep they run, Homer also could have just told us outright what he was thinking without having Achilles say it out loud repeatedly. It also felt to me that Achilles talks about his feelings far more often and bluntly than other characters do, but again this could be because the story revolves around his 'rage.'

Regardless, even if it was purely for audience benefit, this is a behavior I have noticed with my adult ND friends, which is basically after a childhood feeling confused by what other people around them are doing or why they are reacting to things in a certain way, they have a strategy of very bluntly expressing themselves and where they are at in this situation. It can be far easier than trying to follow the subtleties of NT culture and just get whatever issue it is out in the open. Saying to someone "I am angry at you" can come off as overly aggressive and blunt depending on context, but it cuts to the heart of the matter. We can compare this with Odysseus, who does not express any very deep emotions at all in the Iliad (other than the fact that Thersites should shut the fuck up, anyway), presumably because that's nobody else's business.

The Embassy. Achilles' point to Odysseus that this entire war was started over a man stealing a woman is so correct and so ignored. He looks at this situation and says: Paris stole Helen, and Agamemnon rallied all the Achaeans to come make war with Troy. Agamemnon steals Briseis, and I'm meant to... keep fighting for him? In what way does this make sense?

Everyone around him sees it from a completely different perspective, basically that Achilles got angry over a girl. To Achilles this is not what it is about at all. And I'm with him on this. If stealing a woman is a sin egregious enough for thousands of Greeks to spend 10 years attempting to sack a city, then it is the same amount of egregious for Agamemnon to take Briseis and he's lucky Achilles didn't kill him immediately and sack Argos. He's getting off easy, which Achilles tells him.

Reading Odysseus lay out his argument followed by Achilles cutting him down with that bit of logic was like, yeah, I'm with Achilles, I don't even think he's being stubborn I just think he's right.

In the embassy chapter, Achilles also has his famous line about despising men who say one thing but mean another. Being very truthful and having difficulty noticing lies is another common trait of autism, and it would make sense for Achilles to find the dishonesty of his colleagues deeply annoying.

Old British scholars called him a sociopath. This might seem like a weird one, but I'm adding it into evidence. When I read the Iliad, I see Achilles as a very emotional person. Given that half the book is about his grief over Patroclus, I find calling him incapable of caring about others incredibly bizarre. But in addition to determining that these scholars who wrote these batshit essays have never once in their life had a friend, much less a friend that they loved, this kind of fits with how a certain type of old-fashioned scholar understands autism. I've actually been at neuroscience talks with crusty old assholes who talk about how autistics and orphans are incapable of empathy, and then use evidence that really just says to me they express empathy in a different way. (Yes, orphans. For real. A real talk I went to in like 2015. Did you know that orphans don't have feelings and don't care about the feelings of others. /s) Add to the old British tradition of their feral private school kids (which I believe they call public school? idk those assholes in blazers, you know the ones) literally caning each other for being smaller, weaker, or just different, and this to me is solid evidence that Achilles is neurodivergent and unwittingly awoke the bloodlust in these old (dead) bastards.

Speech Patterns. Not being able to read Ancient Greek, I can't actually say much about this one, but multiple scholars have commented that the way Achilles speaks in the Iliad is different to all the others. He has a unique way of speaking. Again, this is not necessarily an autistic trait, but it is common for autistic people to have different speech patterns than NT people, so it's more just a "hmmm, maybe" than actual evidence.

I feel like I'm forgetting other little things, but I'd have to fully reread the Iliad with this in mind to jog my memory, and maybe one day I will. TLDR; Achilles has a very rigid way of thinking and an uncommon way of expressing his emotions.

And as always, autism is a spectrum. Anything I've written about here isn't necessarily true of any autistic person out in the world.

#iliad posting #tagamemnon #man do I want this in the tags? I feel like...#listen I am not autistic I just believe in their beliefs #aka I'm related to autistic people and have ADHD and we got that overlapping vibe you know #anger outbursts are also a known trait of autism #there's also more subtle stuff #achilles gets really upset that despite being the best warrior he's not being appreciated #and sure that could just be pride or an obnoxious personality or whatever #but I've also seen this in my ND friends where maybe they are the best at tennis #but someone else is made team captain #because that person is more likable #and the ND friend is like but I'm better and I deserve that honor #and it really frustrates them #like Agamemnon sucks and everyone at that meeting knows it #but nobody sided with Achilles because conflict at this point is just like... can we not #okay rambling incoherently in the tags now I guess #achilles #old crusty scholar: as we see by the embassy chapter achilles is evil and awful #ND me: okay but he was 100% correct tho so I don't see the issue #people might be dying but he won that argument and that is the important part

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