#since i've given them pretty clear parallels in this series | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

pinkeoni · 1 year

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You are one of the few Byler blogs that I follow, and honestly from what I've seen the majority of the Bylers think Jncy will be definitely end game because they claim that they love each other and are... standing together at the last shot scene. But many people do not realize that at this point, Jncy is pretty much portrayed as incompatible and having problems since at least S3. Their dreams and wants do not match, and they have been having issues and have been separated, and we do not see them healthily trying to fix their problems either. At this point, doesn't it make more sense for them to break up, it would give them more time to process their situations and wants/dreams. Many people expect a Mlvn break up because of how incompatible they are, but pretty much all of Mlvns problems exist in Jncy. I am not saying Stncy will happen either, if I were to write the show I'd just keep these characters as single by the end of the show. It seems like the most plausible way to set characters' arcs straight and satisfying imho.

Hi anon,

I am flattered by your message, but I don't want to make it seem like I am smarter or better than other Byler blogs for not seeing Jncy stay together, it's just how I see things. But I agree with you anon, the way that they set things up certainly do not look good. I think part of it too is that I've been pretty indifferent to Jncy. I never disliked them, but I never shipped them super hard either. I was pretty much just interested in watching where their story was going to go, and the way I see things I don't see it working out.

I do think that they do love each other and have genuine romantic feelings, which sets them apart from milkvan at least in that regard. However, where their lives are leading at the moment, along with their unresolved conflict at the end of s4, I don't see it lasting. Nancy wants to go to Emerson for journalism, and Jonathan has made it clear that he prioritizes the safety of his family above all else. I think Jonathan's arc next season is actually going to be about learning to prioritize himself and following his own dreams (going to NYU for photography which is what he has wanted to do since he was six years old!)

I also agree, I don't think that the hill scene is necessarily a for sure indication that they are going to be "endgame." I do see it as a clear indication for Byler getting together, they are clearly setting them up next to the other couples to create that visual parallel. And it DOES makes sense for Jncy to be up there holding hands, they ARE a couple at that point in time! I just think given the evidence against them that they are going to split, and there is plenty of evidence to support that Byler is going to get together, that hill shot is just part of it.

I also don't see Stncy in the cards either, just because Jncy doesn't work out doesn't mean that they'll end up together. Nancy has moved on from Steve, that was a relationship from her past, and she clearly wants far different things from Steve. I think Stncy is being used as another example of heteronormativity, which can affect straight people too!

My prediction for how Jncy will end the series is they might leave on an ambiguous. They will likely still have feelings for each other, but they will decide to go their separate ways so they can both follow their dreams. If they rekindle their love in the future, I would be open to that.

#asks #anon #anti j*ncy #anti st*ncy #anti m*leven #anti milkvan #byler #anti jancy #anti stancy #anti mileven

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honorarycassowary · 2 years

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Okay so unfortunately I like Egyptian mythology and dissecting Shadow Bastard like I'm a morally deficit scientist and he's a mutated radioactive rat is one of my favourite hobbies, so I'm gonna be insufferable for a bit, especially since I read up on Best Girl and have Thoughts about her, too.

(I'm gonna refer to MK!Ammit as Ammit and Bartseq!Ammet as Ammet/Shadow Bastard, both for easier differentiation and because that's the way it's spelled in the book.)

(Fun fact: Bartseq is one of the only two instances where I've seen this particular name written like this (as opposed to Ammit/Ammut/etc) and given he/him pronouns, with the other being the Polish translation of Neil Gaiman's "American Gods" (I say Polish translation bc Idk how it's written in the original.) I wonder why these choices were made while Ammit is usually depicted as feminine.)

So idk if I'm willing to agree that the only thing they have in common is their name and being 1000s years old - they have a few specific similarities, but otherwise they're nearly complete opposites of each other, and said few similarities highlight those in an interesting manner.

One of said similarities is that they're both misguided in their purpose and act according to their nature even when it's to the detriment of themselves and everyone around them.

In the original myths, it's Ammit's job to devour the hearts of the condemned, and I like how the show took that to the extreme by making her hunger for justice so great that she doesn't even wait for the soul to sin, just looks at its capability to do so and strikes even before they make the choice.

Ammet, meanwhile, takes on the form of a shadow, which traditionally represents one of the pieces of a human soul (shut/shwt/shuyet) which, depending on the text/dynasty/academic/interpretation might act as a guardian of sorts, watching over the soul on its way to the underworld. In the same way, Ammet is deeply protective of Khaba even when it's clear (at least to the audience) that K doesn't care about him. (poke me sometime and I'll go off about how this parallels Asmira's initial blind obedience to the Queen of Sheba.) An extension of that could be the instinct to protect overriding the hatred of humans and those, y'know, millennia of enslavement.

(By the way, it's pretty interesting that the entity named after a demon which eats the hearts of sinners is so desperate to obtain the heart of one of the worst sinners in the book series - a priest of Ra, too! Albeit a terrible one. Poke me sometime and I'll go off about how objectively Weird Khaba is for an Egyptian magician - a sinner who, unfortunately, has no intention of giving it to him.)

I think that the above dynamic of master/servant is a flipped version of Ammit and that little devotee of hers who helped her achieve her goal, with Ammit being dominant where Ammet is submissive. Then again, Ammit IS a goddess whereas Ammet is just a spirit worn down by years of slavery and drunk on a brief moment of being treated slightly better than usual.

So yeah, I do think tha Ammet and Ammit are both misguided and seem to genuinely believe that what they're doing is right (Ammit because it's in her nature to punish sinners and every person has a capability to sin, and Ammet because he's an egotistical simp who doesn't care about his fellow spirits and is fine with helping his bf climb on top of the world and then promptly set it on fire.)

They also are overly confident in their abilities and like to play with their prey instead of just killing it outright, leading to said underestimated prey rightfully kicking their asses and setting the whole carefully concocted scheme ablaze. Oopsie.

Then there's that thing where they both have a special little mortal they like because he's fucked up and serves their schemes/they have the same hobbies. And ambitions ("hey Ammit let me help you"/"hey Ammet let's take over the world and be terrible to people together.") Except, again, the master/servant dynamic is completely flipped on account of Ammit being a goddess and thus more dominant, and Ammet being just a spirit who is usually brought into this world enslaved and wrapped in magical chains. This might also contribute to his overall simpiness because in addition to their shared hobbies, the way Khaba is treating him is likely the best he's ever been treated - I mean, when the bar is so low that it's practically a tripping hazard in hell, stepping over it isn't particularly difficult.

I wonder if we can contrast Ammet's unrequited love for Khaba with a certain degree of indifference Ammit harbors for her little simp - it's clear that despite all the help he was to her and all the boons she gave him, the guy was just a tool and an eventual snack. In both cases shipping the couple romantically becomes yet another example of a monster falling in love with their food, like Venom. Or Hannibal if you take away the monster bit.

Listen, the "hubris-ridden mortal and a devoted eldritch horror who'd destroy the world for them" dynamic is Very Important To Me For Many Reasons, although "mortal is endlessly devoted to their godly spouse who is in turn endlessly devoted to them" is also fun, so I might just take you up on the offer to read fanfic with Ammit and her little boytoy. We do need more monster ladies in the media.

Anyway.

Yeah, like I said, both Ammit and Ammet were sent to Time-Out for a couple thousand years because they caused a few too many problems on purpose, though where Ammit starts the story this way and wanting to be free, Ammet only ends up stuffed into that amphora at the end of the book. F in the chat, you two.

In other words, sure, their arcs, pronouns and bedroom preferences are different, but in essence both of them are overly confident, overly ambitious horrors who bit off more than they could chew and not even their special little meow meows could save them from being yeeted by the (somewhat) shape-changing protagonist with several different names and a badass fighty teenager lass. Sure, they're different, but their differences are almost complete opposites of each other and their similarities enhance these differences really well.

Rest in pieces, A&A. At least one of you could say that you achieved godhood and the other of you got laid.

So uh, maybe I'm being nitpicky and over analyse stuff, but yeah, rant over. Idk if it makes sense because I'm tired and it's late, but here are some of my Thoughts on Best Girl and Shadow Bastard, spilled all over your inbox for your viewing pleasure. Feel free to pay them no attention whatsoever if you don't want to slog through all this nonsense.

oh WOW you do not have to apologize for this meta, I love thoughts on both Ammet and Ammit

re: Ammet specifically, I never got the impression that he was literally the god. (If he was actually being worshipped, I'd expect him to be closer to Nouda in power level, for one.) We know spirits in the series can have multiple names and, IIRC that book of names we see correctly, that names can be repeated. My guess is that Ammet was defined using that name to be a spirit inclined towards punishment and hounding out sinners. But there's nothing stopping him from deciding that the people who really need to be hurt are everyone who fucks with his boyfriend master co-conspirator.

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roadkillramble · 3 years

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Darkstalker : Great potential, shit execution

Aka me rambling about our favorite genocidal theater kid.

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The opinion on Darkstalker in the fandom has a tendency to be very polarized : one side sees him as a redeemable character that is placed as a victim in the story, and the other as complete villain who is completely unjustified in his actions and should have died.

I think (and far from me to imply I'm the only one, I've seen a few other take note of it) that both are facets of the character, and not entirely true or false. Darkstalker is an extremely complex character that is both thematically rich, representing the madness of animus dragons and magic itself, and the feud between nightwings and icewings, that can be interpreted as somewhat dragon racism in general if widened a bit, as well as complex to portray due to his history of both being abuser and abused.

And, since Tui is both a child book writer, and quite frankly not very good at handling more deep themes in realistic ways (especially when her characters are grounded in real people), it was,, quite frankly botched.

A character I tend to compare him to is Bane, the albinos rat that is the main antagonist of Chronicles of the Underland. That book serie has a few things i could comment on, but overall, it handles a lot better a lot of darker themes, including a villain that is "destined to greatness" and abused. Both Darkstalker and Bane are born to a bad father that abuses them. Both are given an opportunity to do better, but continue to spiral out of control, with in Bane's case an extra layer of manipulation. Both end up as tyrannical leaders of a group that wants to commit genocide on another, although Bane goes further and the books are a lot more explicit about his acts. However, where Bane explicitly ends as a villain, and is killed, the fate of Darkstalker is to be reborn, "rebooted", which I personally found extremely unsatisfying.

I'd say Bane is a good character. Although his abuse is a massive part contributing to who he is, it is not an excuse, as there is a very clear limit after which you cannot excuse his actions, no matter how misguided. This limit is more grey in Wings of Fire, as actions tend to have a lot less consequences, and deaths tend to almost be meaningless.

I think his character is portrayed in the two ways the fandom sees him as in the books, hence the clashing. And i think sticking to one or the other narrative would have made a lot more sense.

I usually stick to the true antagonist route : the whole of arc two has an underlaying theme of using magic to transform other as being extremely bad (which makes Darkstalker's fate all the more puzzling), and he's the antagonist that is almost represented by this action, in the murder of arctic, and his manipulation of... Pretty much everyone.

His abuse can be present without his portrayal being insensitive toward abuse recovery : wings of fire is chokeful of abused kids, and one can very much be used as his reflection. In fact, it's interesting to see how the arc 2 character parallel the ones of Darkstalker's time. Moonwatcher is treated somewhat like Clearsight, Turtle is directly compared to Fathom, and both Qibli and Winter have parallels to Darkstalker (and none of the two became murderous like him, although you could argue it is because of the lack of animus power as an option to do so).

I'd have enjoyed this being explored further in the books : I'm not sure what good end Darkstalker could meet, but it at least would serve as a very good way to be directly confronted to his own choices. Especially winter, who is so similar to him while being the very tribe he despises.

He could realize that his choices were his own, and after a time not "forced" by any hand, or deny it. I think portraying all of his actions as things to be forgiven because he is hurt to be extremely dangerous : after all, he does transform a young dragon into his dead girlfriend, which is,,, gross, especially since it's a mind controlled version of her that basically obeys him, manipulates everyone into liking him (this one is *not* the worst, but adding up the rest is,,, ehhh), as well as provoke a genocidal plague upon a whole tribe. Even on a one on one level, he is manipulative toward Moonwatcher and Clearsight, and tries to get anemone, a child, to murder her whole family, which... You can't really justify by having a bad dad.

If he was to be redeemed, it should be before these actions in the modern WOF era, and with a heavy side of introspection on his actions toward Clearsight and Moonwatcher.

I enjoy the idea that didn't go through being that Clearsight would be revived. Her being the one to bring darkstalker down, to finish the job, feels right. She could have matured, with her life being spent with ppl who were not abusive toward her. She could have reflected on Darkstalker, offer him another chance, but take it back if he does not change. I don't like the fact it's basically tui's self insert from what I understood, and i don't have a vision of her as this perfect person, but being the one closest to Darkstalker, she also is the one with the most even field, especially if she is born again from his magic, which could have some implications of bypassing his other spell, mostly bullshit to justify how she could be able to harm him.

Hope, too, could have been the one to bring him down, in the way Yellowfang brings down her child, brokenstar (yet another exemple of this sort of character).

Finally, Moonwatcher, Winter and Qibli as a trio could be very good as the ones to take down Darkstalker, with the help of kinka and turtle. I like the idea of each being able to break at a part of him, with turtle being the one that handles the whole magic part.

That's it for now, disjointed ramble over.

#wof #wings of fire #darkstalker

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seths-wife · 3 years

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Theory: why is Seth Twiright the demon of wrath? What's his backstory?

Note: this theory tries its best to be as objective as possible in explaining and deducing facts basing on only what is known in the novels and not basing on personal preferences and sensibilities, just cold gathering of the facts and trying to draw plausible conclusion. That doesn't mean i'm right, necessarily.

Index:

1) Demon of wrath or demon of pride? (Biblical references and discordance of themes).

2) Was Seth a victim of abuse? (Can we draw this conclusion basing only on what we know?)

3) That one comic by Ichika

4) Conclusion

Chapter 1: demon of wrath or demon of pride?

Seth is a really peculiar character: the sin he's represented by doesn't seem to be...displaying that much, contrary to those of the other demons in this series.

Gilles is clearly lustful (basing on the catholic religion definition of it, at least) seen his high sex drive.

Vlad is not really explained but he's a cook so he must be obsessed with food (joke), also his interactions with Banica seem to suggest a morbid curiosity of his to try new foods for hedonistic pleasure, no matter if it's immoral and illegal to eat those.

Marie Annette is a really prideful human/demon seen her few lines in the entire series, like "bow down to me" without any legitimate reason.

Eve...well...on another theory about that...

Rahab is clearly envious when also other people get what she has, seen that she's basically the ec version of Ayano Aishi and a big stereotypical yandere, at least in one part of the narrative.

Salem (does he even exist? (joke)) is an economist so he must be obsessed with money and gathering earthly and perishing goods. (joke)

I won't talk about Adam Moonlit as the demon of greed here as it's for another topic.

But Seth? When in the series does he show unrighteous wrath? Do we see him get angry outbursts and go around beating up and killing people because he's angry at them?

No.

On the contrary, in the whole series Seth seems to be pretty calculating and cold, and he doesn't seem to be really excessively troubled by any behavior or at least he doesn't really show a strong vengeful attitude towards them.

Yes, he might get on bad mood when his plans don't succeed as he expected to, but he never goes like "you'll pay for ruining my plan" or something. He proceeds with his plans, trying to adjust the latters in order to fit the new situation.

Actually, sometimes he seems to find amusing and funny when people try to kill him and unmask (pun or not lol) him for his evil bahaviour, like when Adam tried to kill him and the latter was surprised he couldn't succeed since Seth outsmarted him, or Gammon when he confronted him about brainwashing Miroku.

It's as if Seth finds funny when people are frustrated because of him, it soothes his ever-roaring mind and boredom.

For months, i've thought that Seth should have been the demon of pride because of his attitude in the crime novel and because it fit him better as for the Biblical references:

We see multiple instances in the crime novel that Seth likes himself very much: he loves the fact that he consideres himself to be the best scientist in the country™ as he uses this bunch of words everytime he introduces himself (both as Horus and as himself), also he considers himself to be very handsome to the point he doesn't want to change his face because it would be "such a terrible crime" (i mean, i also think he's hot but Seth, calm down, what the hell...).

But his pride doesn't end with him flaunting his intelligence and hotness.

There are also other instances of Seth's pride that are even more remarkable.

Like for example, the whole matter of Seth making artificial humans (so called "ghoul children") mimicking the creation of the "gods" in the series. This can be considered a matter of pride, as he wants to act as the "gods", he thinks he's able to be on par of them.

Well lol, gods...i always found pretty unrealistic how we got from human scientists with high tech from almost omnipotent beings that can cast lightening wherever they want, make ladies pregnant and instill thoughts and visions in people in a single arc while being trapped inside of a spaceship. This always provoked some strong cognitive dissonance within me, this sounds like a stretched, inappropriate and unrealistic even if they have big tech. That's why i call them "gods wannabe". They're still humans playing God after all.

But that's besides the point.

Even more remarkable is this other line, right after quoting the achievements of other "gods" in the series:

"In that case—

I am the god who creates “evil”.

Seth is literally and explicitly placing himself in the place of the gods, considering himself to be a god on par of the pillar ones in the series.

And this is very coherent basing on the fact he should be the parallel of the Biblical serpent, the demon who thought he was on par of God and fell because of pride.

So it would have had much more sense to have Seth as the demon of pride.

So when and why is seth the demon of wrath since in the series it looks more like he's the demon of pride?

His motive? Not really...Seth doesn't seem to act because of some sort of anger as his main motivation is to "follow his h.e.r.s nature and make himself 'new friends' (his own definition of friends)".

Then i think we have no choice than look at his backstory and see if we can spot some unrighteous anger there.

Chapter 2: is Seth a victim of abuse and angry at his mother?

The vast majority of the theories around about the reasons of Seth's evil are based off the fact that Seth might have gone through motherly abuse that provoked him some childhood traumas back when he was a little white and red mask.

Those assertions are usually backed up by pieces of the short story "Outlaw and lychgate".

Let's look at them.

The most quoted line about this issue is:

“My, and what sort of dish is that?”

“It’s not really much of a dish. You just splash some curry powder and ketchup on a sausage. My old ma used to make it for me a lot when I was a child.”

“Just like mom used to make, hm. That sounds quite nice. My mother never did any home cooking for me.“

Well...from this particular line, fans have begun to speculate than maybe his mother starved him or refused to cook for him.

But is it necessarily the case? It can be a possible interpretation but we don't know how masks work in this series or whether or not they need to eat, especially since they don't have a mouth or a digestive system of some sort.

It can also be that Seth was just curious about food in the line upwards since as a mask maybe he could not experience food, given that he couldn't physically eat when he was a mask.

This doesn't necessarily refer to an abusive situation of a mother refusing to provide food and care for her son.

There is also another instance in which Seth spoke about his mother.

"I often hear strangers tell me that they can’t tell what I’m thinking.

Even my own mother said so, before she died.

That’s why, to get her to understand at least a little bit, I shot her in the forehead.

To this day I still remember how stopped moving, her mask cracked in two.

That was the first murder I committed."

Ok, the fact that his mother "didn't understand him" could have been because of various reasons:

1) maybe she didn't try to understand him and neglected him.

2) maybe Seth became too different from his mother since he contracted hers and she couldn't understand and relate to him anymore even if she tried to.

3) Seth is just too cryptic or changes his mind too fast (probably because of his boredom) when it comes to expressing his true intentions or having certain intentions therefore people have big trouble understand him.

I would go for 3 since Seth also explained that not only his mother didn't understand him but also various other characters, so it's not necessarily true that Seth's mother just refused to listen and understand him, it could have been that Seth was too cryptic or that she couldn't relate to a her.

Anyways, we don't have a lot of info about this but i don't think it is correct to see a mysterious passage in just one possible way.

And also i wouldn't like for Seth to be "he's evil because mommy wasn't nice therefore he's angry and wants to make everyone like him and destroy everything uwu" because:

1) that's a really misused trope.

2) it doesn't properly explain why Seth did what he did in the crime novel, it's clear that there has to be an even deeper motivation that made him do those horrific things: abuse is too much of a simplistic and lazy motivation given his role.

Also there is no specific mention of anger and resentment even if there could be.

So where can we see that Seth is angry?

Chapter 3: that one Ichika comic.

Let's look at this one comic.

It is kinda difficult to understand what it means but the face resembles Seth's human form a bit and also this comic shows a theme of anger against the human creators of the first period since the comic seems to be talking about the second one "in this world where everything is an extension" (the second period is a virtual parallel reality to the first one in the series).

Seth seems to be pretty aware of the first period.

I think so because Kiril (his clone) at one point gained back the memories of his original.

Who? Seth? Pale? (That twist complicated things a whole lot).

I will go for Seth since in the series he's always referred to as the original talking about his "clones".

Kiril with Seth's memories came up with "Vocaloid, huh?!", showing awareness of the knowledge of vocaloid (since the first period is similar to the real world in the series) but i don't think this is an info Kiril learnt on his own but he took from Seth's memories since he was a researcher of parallel worlds and wouldn't have been out of place for Seth to learn about the first period.

So, given that Seth is the one of the comic and he's talking about the humans of the first period, he seems to be angry at the fact he was born to be an her (let's remember the humans of the first period started the her problem for their own personal gain) and in the society of the second period he's seen as a problem because of that.

Therefore Seth in his anger invites people to blame the creators instead of him since he doesn't think to have a free will and has no other choice than being evil because of those humans who "made him this way".

Funny how the same topic is faced with Irina and Levia in the duel. And funny how Levia in this series seems to also be a victim of her own pulsions and can't really be a moral authority in this, again, gods wannabe. They have their morals inspired by their originals who made their avatars who have tainted them with a virus, so they can't create, define or judge good and evil themselves.

So funny.

Chapter 4: conclusions.

So i think this is a plausible reason Seth might be the demon of wrath. But still, i wonder how it is that Seth is happy later on to follow those pulsions he thinks he can't control (given by humans) and doesn't try to fight back the instincts.

Maybe he accepted and got happy with his disease or he just resigned that that was his destiny thinking that he had no choice.

I don't know if i will make anymore theories after this, since i want to go on and make content for something else.

#evillious chronicles #evillious #seth twiright

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janiedean · 3 years

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I feel bad for all the nice J*nsa shippers who like their ship for whatever reasons (tropes, pretty art, aesthetic appeal, whatever) and know it's not canon but get associated with the misogynistic Dany hating crowd who act like Jon being attracted to Ygritte is J*nsa foreshadowing because red hair (I guess Jon should fuck Edmure Tully too? Omg give me Dark!Jon getting revenge on Catelyn by seducing her brother!) Tell me something. I'm new to the fandom but was J*nsa popular before the show? And I've heard something about the OG J*nsa shippers being alienated by the new shippers who insisted it had to be canon and acted like the series is called, "A song of J*nsa #danysux." I don't find that hard to believe because I know people who are now ashamed of calling themselves J*nsa shippers. Like, at this point, it's not only rival shippers who hate it. Even Gendrya/Braime/Jon stans/etc have started disliking that ship. You know your fandom is a problem when people who have nothing to do with Jnsa have a problem with it.

me: reads this ask

me: iwastheregandalf.gif which I can't find now but

okay anon buckle up because I am sadly well-equipped to answer this ask but before I do lemme tell you dark jon seducing edmure to take revenge on cat is LITERALLY THE BEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD but *clears throat* ALL RIGHT THEN.

disclaimer: as anon says I have no issue with like the shippers mentioned by anon in the beginning and ngl I agree, I have ABSOLUTELY ZERO FUCKING STAKES in the j*nsa vs j*nerys war and the only het jon ship I gaf about is jon/ygritte and we all know where that ended up I just... have been here since 2011/adwd was over and all the fic around was just for the books under secret lj communities and asoiaf qualified for yuletide and I have... seen... things.... and I actually have like uh had... beef... with some people in there and I know things bc ppl who hated those others told me stuff so anyway *sigh* buckle up anon I'mma tell you the story of jon shipwars through the years

in order, the old gods help me here, under the cut bc this is long as fuck

when I got into fandom also given what numbers were on ao3 one ship was popular and it was sansan. no like sansan was lit. the only asoiaf ship on ao3 with more than 200 fics. jb had twenty when i checked first. jc had like around 100-ish because of the show but sansan dwarfed anything. I posted the first jon/ygritte fic on the ao3 tag and the fourth throbb fic and like the others were all reposts from lj kinkmemes. nothing was popular before the show except for sansan when it comes to huge numbers bc grrm doesn't like fic and it was all hush hush until the show made it impossible to control and that ship was the one with a huge enough fanbase it actually had numbers, so like... j*nsa wasn't popular in the way nothing else was popular until it got screentime on the show

now, that stated, j*nsa had a... fair amount of fic for a rareship which was mostly book-based and from og shippers that were there from before the show and liked it for what it was but literally none of them thought it was gonna be canon, like it wasn't huge or anything but it had a small but dedicated fanbase who did their own thing and thought it was fun/liked the idea but that was it

that fandom had their own niche of hcs that they cultivated and shit except that like... at the end of S5/beginning of S6 there was a surge in shipping for... well obvious reasons bc it was obv sansa was getting to the wall and that would have been all nice and good but a) it was the time puritanical shipping was starting to take root and the 'shipping sansa with sandor or tyrion is hella problematic' rhetoric had started to circle coming from sans*ery shippers mostly but I'mma not open that fucking can of worms here, b) while the ending of S5 had more of a theon/sansa spike, the j*nsa stuff started getting big

now here we have to mention my villain origin story ie: j*nsa fandom had this one stan whose name I won't make because honestly it's been years and if she's still around I don't want her to remember I exist who was a bnf, wrote for... the website that created the whole larry/carol thing etc who was really fixed on this thing that j*nsa was actually canon and started writing extremely popular meta about it. now you're gonna ask how do you know, I know because this person once wrote a meta named 'why robb stark is a dick' and I told her that it was really fucking bad meta and she took it so badly she kept on trash talking me on her blog/her podcast (I was apparently the insane robb stark fangirl l m a o good lord) and like that was when some sane ppl who argued with her informed me in pvt that she was basically harping on the CANON thing when they'd have been okay with like... it being crackshipping and that she was basically cultivating a hoarde of followers who were harping on them/the ogs and basically ostracizing them;

I would like to add that this person - before her tumblr got 'accidentally deleted' and remade it therefore deleted most receipts for, er, her so-called meta which included stuff like ned and cat raised sansa as a sexual object and only wanted to sell her like cattle - had at some point started a round robin fic thing where... some of the characters mocked openly said stuff that some of the og fans had said specifically targeting them and people in that side basically went harassing anyone who didn't agree with that specific notion

now never mind that this person basically coined an entire term to describe ppl who liked white guys and excused all their wrongdoings out of my conversation re robb basically lying about everything I said as if I didn't have the receipts and tried to sell shirts with it and it didn't work and like then she got kicked out of her own website because she was telling her commenters disagreeing pretty shitty insults (considering I was called psychotic for disagreeing with her that time I don't doubt it) I think at some point she stepped back from fandom bc idk wtf she's up to these days and I don't want to, but basically at that point the dam was broken and there was a bunch of puritanical shippers harping on anyone who didn't agree with j*nsa is canon endgame stuff

this also includes an incident when those ppl were like... passing themselves as throbb shippers and ended up trying to tell t*hramsay shippers off the theon tag based on moral reasons and I ended up arguing with all of them (and they were all from that crowd) which in turn landed me in contact with other og j*nsa shippers who were like detached from that fandom bc those same people harassed them away as well ssooooo fun

anyway when S6 happened everyone was high on it and whatnot but I wasn't gonna begrudge them that I mean... you shipped it for years, canon is delivering you, good for you, but then j*nerys happened

god j*nerys happened

aaand basically...... I mean personally I was there like are y'all seriously arguing about the best incest jon ship out there but like basically the j*nsa endgame side was like AH JON IS PLAYING DANY SEE IF IT DOESN'T HAPPEN, the j*nerys obv got defensive af and both sides were sort of alternatively shitting on jon/ygritte anyway and depicting any other romantic rship jon could have as abusive™ and during S8 it just got worse and like I tried to stay out of it but basically from what I'm seeing now idk how the j*neryses are doing but on the j*nsa one it's ah jon's gonna play dany anyway and she's going to go insane like in the show so SHOW TRUTHING EVERY OTHER WAY and like again denying that sandor exists or that tyrion exists and like I barely touch my corner (sansan) but I ended up arguing with j*nsa/th*nsa people on twitter who were antis and is2g it was white-hair inducing and I know for sure the sansa/tyrion shippers were harassed to hell and back throughout so FUN

and even if the show didn't go there now since everyone there banked on the jnsa endgame thing and admitting you're wrong is like... not a thing, they still haven't let go of it and attach to that ship any shred of evidence which honestly is grasping at straws half of the time (like... the sansa/alysanne parallels like guys please no) and which is why every other ship is starting to get fed up, attaching canon proof of stuff from other ships onto theirs see that batb argument and jb is platonic but jonsa is not nvm taking all the sansan stuff and throwing it on j*nsa but then denying that sansan has canon evidence (like guys I had to read sansa touching his shoulder when saying gregor wasn't a true knight wasn't meaningful and we were seeing things please) and blah blah blah

this also goes hand in hand with the fixation on like... villanizing dany at all costs and like is2g I have zero investment in dany or her storyline I don't even remember it and I don't particularly care abt her either way and sure af I'm not for j*nerys endgame but like.... some stuff I read is completely excessive esp when fixing on how she's a completely mad tyrant who's gonna have to be put down and like... guys no

(also there's some srs stannis hate in that corner which I honestly don't get why they even care abt stannis but I had to read stuff like ppl don't recognize that dany and stannis are the real villains in this saga and like........ idek)

I think most of the og shippers are gone or don't ship it openly bc they don't want to be attached to the drama but like I also think they're pissing off everyone else bc like... I mean a bunch of them also were down with sansa being paired with other ppl as long as it meant a good ending for her except those ppl were... like everyone but the ppl she has actual contact with in canon which meant that at some point sansa/gendry was a thing and like.... you can imagine why arya/gendry shippers & arya stans were fed up, and there's also this tendency to behave like sansa is the center of the entire saga which like these books is named a song of jon snow basically can we pls make peace with it and personally I've had it with both j*nsa and j*nerys people since they started with that dumbass JON/YGRITTE WAS AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP rhetoric but I'm also fed up with the total ignoring that sandor exists/depicting us as delusional and honestly I also was by proxy fed up from the harassing of the sansa/tyrion shippers soooooooooooo

there were also instances of 'well theon is an acceptable choice other than jon bc he can't threaten her' which... i mean we all know what that meant and I'm not even commenting it bc it's one AM and I have no force to but I don't have to explain why it's not a progressive take now do I

there were also metas about how cousin incest being legal in half of the world means that jondany is a worse incest and j*nsa doesn't count as such and I was basically there like guys please just fucking own up to it but honestly I chose to forgot where I read that and I couldn't find the link if I tried

tldr: no one wants to admit that it's not gonna be endgame which considering the amount of fic they have on ao3 is imvho useless bc they have more content than like.. anything I ship that's not jb or that's actually like canon *cries in joncon/rhaegar but I mean renly/loras is canon and has less fic than them* so idk what's the problem with enjoying that instead of insisting it's gonna be canon when not even the show validated it while show truthing anyway when the only show truthing that can be truthed is the small council made of minorities and possibly jon eventually fucking off with the wildlings but not like that but like most people who thought it wasn't gonna be endgame had left/were made to leave by the time S7 rolled by and at this point since wow isn't out yet everyone is fandom-grasping at straws to find stuff to discourse on and we're here beating dead horses *shrug*

so that's... how it is but I would again like to point out that I don't judge ppl on their shipping, I don't particularly care about this entire feud bc I only ship jon with ppl he's not related to in whichever way and I try to stay out of this mess bc I don't really care to argue with ppl who have already decided to bend canon to whatever they want and will have to realize that it's not what grrm wrote at some point but like I have a very good memory and the above rant is as objective as possible also bc again I don't literally have a stake in that race I just think romantic/endgame j*nsa is not a thing and that ppl should stay in their lane and not harping on other ppl who ship whatever in general but especially when their ship is the most popular thing in fandom in the first place /two cents

#1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #anonymous #ask post #anti-jonsa #anti jonsa #anti-jonerys #anti jonerys #both of them for equality

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espejonight28738 · 4 years

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15×09 "The Trap" Meta

Warning: As always, Destiel and Saileen positive so don't like don't read.

OMG guys I can't even this episode was something else. Like, for real.

First of all, it looks like I was right about Eileen being part of Chuck's plan.

"I helping to Sam the Bunker. To Sam. To Romance." Thanks Chuck for proving me right, but if you could please not hurt my baby Eileen and Sam while you do it would be awesome ;-;

Now if only I could be in the right about the happy ending...

But whatever. Let's talk about the prayer first, because I could talk about it for hours. Everything was so wonderful.

First, when Dean looks he only have 29 minutes left to find Cas, you could see all the trauma resourfaced. You could see how he was imagining ending up without Cas again. Having to go back home (although he didn't seem to be going to the portal when right before he found Cas, but I have no certainty about it) and leave Cas behind, and he imagined himself reliving the guilt and the hallucinations and the hopelessness.

[Gif by the amazing @agusvedder because I want you to look at him and tell me that ain't the look of a man who just imagined losing the love of his life again]

And, above all, Dean imagined having to live through it all knowing he never fixed their relationship. Rowena's words about not waiting until it was too late must have been ringing in his ears. And he knows that he needs Cas to know.

Purgatory's pureness gave him a new understanding of his emotions, and I'm not talking about the anger (it's obvious Dean already knew he had that problem), but the need for Cas.

"Cas, buddy, I need you." That same need, mixed with the possibility of losing Cas yet once again was enough for Dean to just break down in the middle of a land of abominations.

And the first thing he says. "I should've stopped you." Can you see how he is telling us we were right all along? Cas said "I left but you didn't stop me." And now Dean knows he could have.

If he had tried to talk, if he had asked Cas to stay, maybe he wouldn't have left. Dean put himself through that depression (the even heavier drinking, comfort food, the coldness) .

[And as an author note. How was that real? "You didn't stop me/I should've stop you" The Brontë sisters WISH they could write that levels of angsty romance.]

And, having Dean finally admitting to his very real anger issues gives me very high hopes for everything else. It's not like his problem will disappear, it does was kinda beaten into him, but having him admitting it is recognizing it as a standing problem between Dean and a Happy Future, so we can assume that will be another one of the problem they'll tackle in the rest of the season.

(Or maybe they'll forget about it. But s15 has been so good until now that I'm hoping they won't ignore it.)

And Dean calling Cas his best friends. Holy mother of God. I know I made several jokes about it, but it truly is so significant. Because words like "Family" and "Brother (and sister for Charlie)" are ones Dean had given other people. But Best Friend is only for Cas, it puts him in a special place in Dean's live no one else shares.

Maybe it's not exactly the place we want him to be in (yet), but the fact alone that they recognize once again how Dean and Cas' relationship is different to the one they have with anyone else.

So when did found Cas and said "Okay, Cas, I need to say something", I agree we wasn't about to repeat his prayer.

The Prayer (the fact that Dean got on his damn knees, for god's sake) was a moment of absolute vulnerability and emotion. Dean grew up in with a "no emotions" mentality tought to him by John, and so we seldom see him show this kind of raw vulnerability by choice. Considering that the Winchesters (as always, I include Jack and Cas in there) are an experts in 'I screw up and you got angry but then we had a bigger problem so we kinda left it behind us bc we are family and I love you anyway, or we just move on without never really discussing it' but not in actually apologizing, I would go as far as to say this was probably the most heartfelt apologize we've seen in the series.

I've watched the scene like a million times, and he just carries an attitude of doing something big. Like a big reveal, not like repiting himself.

Because he knew Cas heard him. The reason he said "I hope you can here me, that wherever you are, it's not too late" it's 'cause he was afraid Cas had died. That is was really too late. Once he saw Cas was alive? I don't think Dean doubted for a second Cas had heard him. He was hoing to say something else.

Cas clearly didn't want to take the risk of Dean telling him what he truly wanted to hear- what he had wanted for years. The risk of his deal with the Empty hovering behind hime. He couldn't be so selfish as allowing himself to hear it, just to abandon Dean right after.

Then Cas interrupted him.

Or abandoning Sam when he was at God's mercy, or leaving the World SavingTM to them. He couldn't. Dean doesn't even now about the deal.

I cannot tell you how much I loved it. Not in a "I want this to happen" way, of course not, but in what it means.

That's why Dabb said this episode wasn't the resolution. There's still much unsaid between them, if you believe there is an 'I love you' somewhere there. I think that's what has my hopes the highest. Because if they are only bff, then why didn't this solve everything? What is left hanging? I don't want to clown but it's literally the only thing that makes sense in my opinion.

And now, let's talk about the future Sam saw.

Sam and Dean don't need only each other to be happy, they need other people. That's basically what that future said.

"What's happened to you Dean? Ever since..."

"Ever since what? We lost pretty much everyone we ever cared about?"

[There is like a 2 second pause here that I feel very important andd significant. The separation between what 'everyone' and 'Cas']

"Ever since the Mark made Cas go crazy? Ever since I had to bury him in Ma'lak box? Ever since then? Yeah." [Jfc you can hear it pains him to say Cas' name]

"Bobby had a death wish and you know it. And Jody? Ever since what happened to Donna and the girls, she does too.

And after Eileen? So do you."

He's acknowledging everyone's breaking point. Jody's was Donna and the girls (we don't know exactly which one was the last straw, as we know that at least in Claire's case they died at different times). Sam's was Eileen. His was Cas.

And he is very clear in that. We can't know what happened first, but we know that Sam asks what happened to *him* and he says it was Cas going crazy. It was having to bury Cas alive what made him lose all hope. Because at least he can hope they ones dead can find pace, but Cas? Dean, and for how he said it he probably did it alone, had to bury Cas knowing he was going to be there for the rest of the time. Suffering alone. Dean knows how it's like to have the Mark.

That broke Dean. And having Sam wasn't enough to put him back together.

And after Eileen somehow died again, Sam just stop caring about living, he just care about taking down as many monsters as he can before he dies. 'Death wish' Dean called it. He would know about that, he is Dean "You wanna die" Winchester, after all.

Having Dean wasn't enough for Sam to want to keep on living.

"We lost, brother. We lost. I'm done."

They still have each other? Yes. Is that remotely enough? No. That's what the future told us. They need more than each other, they need other people.

But there was a little something else that made it even more beautiful.

"The Dean who raised me [...]"

Let's be clear about something, I think the show never gives enough recognition for having raised same pretty much by himself since he was 4 years. The situation was totally unfair to Dean and yet he never once took it out on Sam, he just look out for him, cooked for him, and make sure he could be as much of a child as the situation allowed, that is a lot more than Dean ever could. In his own words, he wasn't just a brother, he was also a father and a mother.

I just want to cry for thinking how hard that was for both brother. And Sam knows it, even if he doesn't always acknowledges. So the fact that he chose the words "the Dean that raised me" when "the Dean that I know", for example, would have conveyed the sentiment as well, is significant.

They wanted to remember how important they are for each other, how much they love each other. They don't dismiss that, they are making sure we remember that, at the same time they are telling us the alone aren't enough for a happy ending.

They are telling us what we need for a True Happy Ending.

Dean and Sam still being close brothers and loving each other, but allowing themselves to love and need other people.

Okay I'll go to the point.

A HAPPY ENDING IS SAM AND THEN HAVING OTHER PEOPLE IN THEIR LIVES WITHOUT LOSING EACH OTHER.

A HAPPY ENDING IS THE END OF THE TOXIC CODEPENDENCY AND THE START OF A HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP THAT INCLUDES THEIR RELATIONSHIPS WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

You guys now I've been saying they are hinting at it since my meta of "The Rupture" but this ain't foreshadowing THEY ARE SCREAMING IT. Like I can't come up with a radically different interpretation.

So this episode only got my hopes for endgame Saileen and Destiel (the destiel maybe not at canon as the saileen, but heavily hinted at least) even higher. Specially for the parallel with Eileen having Dean's doubts ("I don't know what's real") and Sam making kinda answering the same ("We are"/"I know that was real"). Btw I'll be screaming because of that for the rest of my days.

[BONUS: Random questions I can't seem to answer.

Does the angels even know God's going bersek? I mean, Belphegor didn't know it was God the one who broke hell... but even Lilith's been brought back. Do they know Micheal's back? God I don't know.

Was that really a possible future? Or it does was like a Zacharaiah tactic? Why does Chuck's abscence makes monster go crazy? Wasn't the point that it didn't unblanaced the powers?

Story-wise, why ain't Cas in next episode?

Was that the last mention of Claire? An off-screen hypotetical death? Please someome let me see my girl again.]

Tagging: @metafest @verobatto-angelxhunter @agusvedder @legendary-destiel @that-one-fandom-chick @studio-hatter

#supernatural meta #spn s15 #spn 15×09 #dean winchester meta #sam winchester meta #destiel meta #destiel #saileen #eileen leahy #castiel meta #my metas

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ettadunham · 5 years

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A Buffy rewatch 2x15 Phases

aka male aggression and the Buffy feminism

Welcome to this dailyish text post series where I will rewatch an episode of Buffy and point out / hyperfocus on one detail in it in 10-3k words. Or maybe go through each and every random scene I choose. Rules are fake.

And today’s episode is one that I enjoy and love immensely, but it’s also the perfect opportunity to talk about the dreaded subject:

Why does Buffy’s feminism feel dated?

But before that, it’s time for everyone’s* (*my) favorite segment - Buffy/Willow out of context.

Buffy: Meow! Willow: Really? Thanks. I've never gotten a 'meow' before.

Even Larry’s being gross about wanting ‘some of that Buffy/Willow action’... And like... I know that you’re going through stuff my dude, but still., don’t ruin this for the rest of us.

Willow is also complaining about guys and dudes in general at least three different times in this episode. (Sometimes to Buffy, but sometimes to Cordelia??? I’m definitely sleeping on that ship.) And I’m just sitting here being like... aw, honey... you really don’t need them... trust me.

Anyhow, we could be sitting here dissecting all that, but I set out with a different goal today, and I’m trying to cut it short, so let’s talk.

Buffy feminism.

At this point anyone in and out of the fandom is familiar with the debate of how Buffy’s - and in turn, Whedon’s - feminism has aged, and that while it had a huge impact on its time and laid the groundwork for today’s popculture scene, we’ve evolved since then.

And I don’t think many would negate a lot of that. The Buffy feminism certainly lacks intersectionality and works with a lot of tropes and archetypes that has its fair share of negative elements and implications. And Whedon’s later work have memorably been taken to court by fandom for such cases.

So the question that I ended up on some time ago was a natural result of that trail of thought.

Was Buffy ever intended to be feminist?

Spoiler alert: the answer is both yes and no. It’s Schroedinger’s feminism.

But first, I want to make it clear that I don’t intend to argue that Buffy isn’t feminist, or didn’t influence our culture massively in that direction. In the 90s, a show with a female lead was still the outlier, and the fact that it gained such a universal following is somewhat mind-blowing. Especially if you consider the grudge our culture holds against teenage girls, even today.

On top of that, Buffy’s character concept goes against the idea of the Strong Female Character (often known as Female Side Character With Some Masculine Traits To Show That She’s Not Like Other Girls Who Can Kind Of Hold Her Own Next To Our Male Lead But He’s Still Better At Things Of Course), by being both immensely powerful and unabashedly teen girly. And then only becoming more complex and memorable as the seasons went on.

Not to mention the fact that the show also had an even ratio of female:male co-stars for most of its run. Meaning that there were plenty of other female characters to develop beside the titular lead, making it a largely female-driven series in general.

As a result of all that, it’s no wonder that Whedon gained a reputation as a staunch feminist - and again, he was a trailblazer when it came to female-led television shows... But I think conflating his ideals with the show’s themes is where we fell into a pitfall.

People complaining about diversity in media often cite ‘agendas’ or ‘pandering’. Which is an immensely simplified (and stupid) way to look at things that is meant to paint going against the norms in a negative way. See, if the creators decide to include characters of different backgrounds because it’s important to them, or because they want to talk about their own experiences, then they have an ‘agenda’. The agenda being using art to talk about things they find important, I guess...

And then there’s this idea that studios / companies / creators just want to please an under-served audience, and profit out of their enthusiasm when they make such media. In contrast to pleasing the audience of the status quo 90% of the time otherwise. I guess.

I’m bringing this all up because the argument that a lot of these people bring up is that representation and diversity is okay if there’s a “reason” for it. Which... yeah, we already covered why I think this line of thinking is so incredibly flawed, but on the other hand... I think Buffy actually satisfies that criteria.

Ideas such as gender roles are baked into show’s concept. Buffy is literally fighting the patriarchy and rape culture (among other things), so it only makes sense that she’s a girl. Meanwhile the character who will end up being gay is the one who struggles the most with their identity. These things are literally building into the bigger picture that the show’s attempting to make.

Now, I will say this though - differentiating and drawing the lines between these things (sincere desire for representation vs. financial strategy vs. exploring themes) is impossible. Everything can be a little bit of each or something else entirely. That’s also why debating intent to undermine representation is such a cheap transparent move.

Nevertheless, I have decided to approach Buffy’s feminism and many of its other themes from the angle of thematic intent. And this episode is a prime example of how the heightened reality of toxic masculinity and its deconstruction look like on the show.

Phases is very unsubtle when stating its thesis. All men are beasts (a reoccurring theme for sure). And for that we have three male characters to examine: Oz, Larry and Cain. (And to a lesser extent Xander and Giles)

Cain is pretty much the least complex of all. He’s a misogynistic douchebag who constantly berates Buffy for “being a girl”, while also hunting essentially human beings for money. He’s completely one-dimensional and irredeemable, and the only thing he’s good for is so Buffy could destroy his gun and tell him to get the hell out of town.

I suppose he’s also there to contrast Giles, but there’s not much there to talk about. Giles respects and supports Buffy, I guess.

Now, Larry and Oz - that’s a more interesting contrast.

Larry was previously introduced as Xander’s bully, but this episode goes above and beyond establishing him as an all around creep. He makes gross comments at all the girls and literally gropes Buffy, and it all culminates in the Scoobies deducting that he must be the werewolf for being so aggressive and douchey.

And then it turns out that... no, he’s just gay. Which, like... the Gay Bully is certainly a trope that’s probably died out at this point, but this does make sense in the context of this episode and the show’s tendency to deconstruct. The idea that performative aggression like Larry’s can actually be a sign of an unresolved conflict with ourselves. And once that’s resolved, we can find a way to live without that facade and be our more authentic self.

Which is an interesting way to contrast him with Oz, as he appears to be the sweetest, chillest guy in the whole Sunnydale area. He literally tucks the tag on Willow’s shirt back like??? Too good for this world.

But then it turns out that he’ll now also become a werewolf 3 days out of a month, a creature of pure instinct and aggression. And given how reserved Oz is in his day-to-day life, that’s an interesting dichotomy. Is that supposed to represent him getting his rage on and finally letting loose of his emotions, or does it suggest a more aggressive inner layer of his character in general?

(Future knowledge mostly points towards the former, but I feel like it’d be interesting to talk about Oz from the latter perspective.)

It’s also an interesting tidbit how the episode mentions that the werewolf could be female, but then continues to refer to them as a ‘he’ anyway. It’s as if the episode is self-aware of its own theme.

...But then we get a lycanthropy- period cycle parallel made in the end anyway, when Willow’s like ‘well, I’m not much fun to be around 3 days-a-month either’. So there’s that.

Then there’s Xander. I’ve recently heard about an alleged quote where Whedon apparently said that they considered writing either Willow or Xander as gay at some point. And that was certainly in my head during Larry’s coming out scene, which makes Xander’s intense no-homo reaction much more layered. He’s essentially Larry in that scenario, aggressively trying to ignore his own inner conflict.

...Which also made me think of another coming out scene on the show and Buffy’s initial, if brief reaction to it.

Looking at Xander’s character from this angle also puts his obsession with his masculinity into perspective. Although his character arc, especially given the show’s themes about gender roles, remains interesting either way.

Oh yeah, and he’s super jealous about Willow and Oz. We’ll definitely get back to that in S3.

Buffy’s comment about Oz being the loyal type meanwhile is S4 material.

Onwards!

#buffy rewatch 2k19 #btvs talk #btvs

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