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orbmanson7 · 9 months

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Let's do a quick analysis of this new short video "The Sides Need a Nice Day" which is clearly meant to be mostly for fun, but there's definitely some hints and easter eggs to pay attention to that I'd like to explore a little further.

I'll address this in three parts in separate posts, the first for Patton and Logan, the next for Virgil and Roman, and the last for Janus and Remus.

Let's start with the first part, about Patton and Logan.

Patton's initial approach, as we can see, was flawed despite his good intentions. He wants to do something nice for Logan, he thinks out ideas based on what he knows Logan enjoys, and he likes to see Logan actually having fun. These are all very emotion-based notions and motivations, which we can expect from Patton. He's inspired by his own emotions in response to seeing the videos online, and takes matters into his own hands to give Logan in particular a special day.

Why Logan? Because Patton's very in tune with emotions and can recognize that Logan has been having a tough time lately. He empathizes with this a lot (considering it's kind of his thing) so he wants to do something that he'd like someone to do for him if he was having a bad day - do something to cheer him up!

This is very sweet and he clearly puts a lot of thought into this idea...but it's not an immediate success because he only really puts the emotional concept and vision into it, and didn't think practically or make his decisions with logic in mind.

Wonder who could have helped with something like that...

First, he approached Logan about making a quick decision, which is not something Logan is ever known to do. Logan resists this right away by questioning him for clarification and is already annoyed to start because Patton is being vague and trying to get Logan to play along without giving consideration to Logan's need to understand a situation and weigh his options before deciding anything. Logan takes no action lightly and always thinks his actions through first, as opposed to Patton, who prefers gut instincts and impulsive action. He doesn't bother to offer Logan the information and time to make a more informed decision, all because he wants to hurry up and get to the fun part!

Patton (like Roman) is someone who is able to envision what he wants, but Logan is someone who actually figures out the steps needed to make that a reality. Without the steps, that vision is but a dream, and without the vision, the steps are just work with no purpose.

These sides need to learn to work together to accomplish goals, not just do things on their own, and this part of the episode gives us a hint towards that notion.

The peculiar way that Patton then explains the situation to Logan is also interesting, as he states that whichever option Logan chooses will be something Patton wants to do, and because Patton wants to do it, Thomas will want to do it, meaning Logan gets to do it, too.

This, by itself, is such an alarming concept to drop into this video, especially with Patton saying it so cheerfully.

In case it's not clear, Patton is implying that he has so much power and sway over Thomas' decision-making process that he can have Thomas do something just because he, Patton, wants to do it. None of the sides should have that level of influence over Thomas, but Patton not only has that power but also knows that he does.

(And to clear up any confusion, this is not the same as Janus saying during his part of the video that he's convinced Thomas to lean into certain thoughts for the day. Patton is suggesting that if he wants something, Thomas will do it, as if it's automatic and doesn't require convincing. That may be Patton oversimplifying it a bit, but it's still indicating his status above others in that sense.)

In this case, he's using it to give Logan a nice day by doing (read: permitting Thomas to do) things he knows Logan would enjoy...but in other context, that's a very dangerous situation, especially since Patton has been shown to make bad or skewed judgement calls in the past due to his biases as well as making some very impulsive, emotionally-driven decisions.

But he recognizes this status that he holds and is attempting to use it for good, so at least there's that?

The next and more obvious part of this section shows that Patton is rushing Logan through the activities chosen, talking over him or cutting him off when Logan questions Patton about this, and Logan grows more annoyed by this as time goes on.

He is not quick to anger, even when he was initially forced into deciding something with very little information, and it takes a few times of being pushed and talked over before he even shows his frustration at all.

It's important to notice this because Logan's anger is not just born of nothing. It's valid because it's a natural reaction to the situation he's in not being properly catered to him.

This is something we see in episodes of the series a lot, and when it comes to the specific moments where Logan has truly gotten angry enough to show it, it's never out of nowhere, even if it may seem that way. If you are properly paying attention, you will see the gradual buildup, where Logan keeps holding himself back, staying calm and collected as long as he can, before the emotion bursts out and he acts rashly (and then regrets it).

Logan's anger has been shown to appear after moments where he is repeatedly cut off, spoken over, and ignored or disregarded completely. Being silenced and skipped over so often, it's a wonder Logan keeps trying at all, but he does. At some point, the last line is crossed, and he explodes with that anger.

While the resulting behavior may be inappropriate or rude, the feelings motivating that behavior are extremely valid, because he's being pushed to this breaking point by others. Anger serves the purpose of making it known when someone's boundaries have been crossed and when they have been wronged, so it makes sense for Logan to experience it at these times.

So, in this short video, Patton is trying to do something nice for him, and Logan can recognize and appreciate Patton's intention, but the execution is filled with the same mannerisms that build Logan's anger - being cut off, spoken over, ignored. It's not that he doesn't enjoy these activities, either, but he's not being given the chance to enjoy them with the way Patton is presenting them to him. It's a recipe for disaster because Logan's needs and boundaries aren't being respected despite the whole point being to do something nice for him.

This is also a tough situation for someone to oppose, by the way! When someone does something nice for you but you honestly hate it, how do you begin to tell them that? You don't want to hurt their feelings because you know they were trying to be nice and meant no harm, but if you don't speak up about the issues you had with it, your boundaries could wind up violated over and over again and the other party would be none the wiser.

Logan must voice his frustration. He has to explain why he's upset. And, thankfully, in this section of the video, he does!

He starts by stopping Patton directly, hand out and everything. He speaks calmly and clearly, using the same tone he used when speaking to the others during DwIT to get them to chill out and not be so impulsive. Logan is using what he knows to work to make his case here, and he tells Patton that he appreciates what he's trying to do. But then, he raises his voice and informs Patton what's annoying him about it, that he can't enjoy these activities because he's being rushed through them. This is a direct communication of the issue at hand and why it's bothering him.

Patton then pauses, reflects, realizes his mistake and where he had messed up, and then alters his behavior to fix the issue.

It's so simple and succinct that Logan, while still annoyed, seems confused that Patton actually listened to him and by how easy it was to find that resolution.

And I think that's our next piece of foreshadowing, as well.

Logan has been holding back about his genuine anger and frustration over how he's treated by the other sides and Thomas. He feels ignored and only utilized as a tool, as if he were a book rather than a person (or the metaphysical manifestation of one, at least).

These are not feelings that have only sprung up recently, either - this has been happening for a very long time without Logan ever addressing it.

Until he does, the others won't realize the impact their words and actions truly have on him. He needs to speak up and the others need to listen and adjust accordingly.

With the way Patton responded in this part, though, perhaps this shows that they may have an easier, calmer solution in store than one might initially anticipate, but we shall see.

Speaking of foreshadowing, during the times Logan is shown in the library throughout this part, he is reading a book titled A Gentleman in Moscow by Amor Towles. Knowing past easter eggs and hints, it's likely this is not a coincidence.

Having read the book myself, I think it's very possible this is a potential nod to something that may occur soon within Logan's upcoming arc (whenever that may happen), as the book happens to deal a lot with the concept of imprisonment and finding ways to live through adversity.

In the book, the main character is put on house arrest in a bustling hotel in the city, but he's relegated to a cramped attic space and had left all of his books away from home so he cannot access them, because if he dares to leave the hotel, he'll be shot dead. So he stays inside, and he self-reflects because he now has a lot of time to think. He gets to know the people who work and live in the hotel, how their lives are so different than his own had been and continues to be. For quite some time, he feels the true punishment of his stay there, how the whole world outside is moving on so fast, but he is stuck inside, removed from it. He becomes effectively useless, unable to be or do anything for others (outside of giving amazing wine pairings for meals, of course), but he stays true to himself despite it all. He remains his charming and intelligent self, he makes new friends, he finds ways to be happy despite being trapped there.

The most popular quote from the book is one that says, "if a man does not master his circumstances then he is bound to be mastered by them." And while the main character in that story manages to make the best of his life and circumstances, we know that Logan is still struggling with his fate right now, being trapped within Thomas' mind as someone who cannot fully explore his own interests, who has less and less purpose since Thomas left college, and feels less respected and listened to every day.

Logan has to find a way to obtain happiness despite his circumstances, because he can't change his situation, but he can change how he responds to it.

This book may be a clue as to how he finally figures out how to do that.

The outcome of this part of the video with Logan and Patton is a satisfying one. Logan expressed his frustration, Patton listened and was able to correct the issue, and Logan was able to have a nice day after all, which is what Patton had set out to accomplish. There were quite a few bumps along the way, but it was successful in the end!

Now, onto the next part...

#sanders sides #sanders sides analysis #patton sanders #logan sanders #ts spoilers #long post #orbs thought bubbles #I'm posting part one for now and I'll post part two and three later on because i have two jobs back to back today and tomorrow so I'm busy #pfft but i won't make anyone wait for too long i promise

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yourfanderfriend · 4 months

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!! SPOILER WARNING!! ⚠️

What if there was something more to Logan’s statement?

In the newest episode, “What Makes a Perfect Gift?”, when Logan hints to Virgil that he is disappointed with his newspaper, he makes a point to say:

“… there was obviously something about my personality that made you think a newspaper would be a proper gift for me, and whatever that is, I will have to reflect on that. This whole activity was to serve a higher purpose anyway.”

Thomas then assures Logan: “You’re doing good, Logan.”

They never discuss what exactly “the purpose” was. I also believe the wording of Logan’s statement was odd. This could just be a nod to his past history of disconnection with the group, but I believe it could be more.

I propose:

Could he be talking about the Orange Side?

I believe that “the aspect of his personality” Logan needs to reflect on could be a reference to Orange.

We already know that Orange and Logan are connected in some way, hence, the glowing orange eyes. They never discuss “the purpose” or “the aspect his personality” after it’s brought up.

Something about how Thomas said, ��You’re doing good Logan,” tells me that Thomas, in some capacity, can see how much of a hard time Logan had. Janus and Remus obviously know about Orange, but what about the others?

Could it be that Logan is trying to keep Orange at bay?

Logan was the Side who ultimately decided to initiate the Gift Exchange. This is odd.

They even call this out when Roman says: “Logan, you’ve never run one of these things.”

Patton agrees with that statement saying: “Hey, yeah! It’s usually me or Roman. Wha-?”

Logan replies: “Well, things are a little different this year.”

Logan is trying new things and intentionally going out of his way to make sure Orange is not shown to the rest of the group.

He is making an effort to reconnect and get away from the one-dimensional “smart guy” stereotype because he can see how that can feed into Orange.

I would like to hear other people’s takes on this line. There are many ways you could interpret it, but it seems so cryptic that I might as well apply it to a theory of mine. Enjoy my over exaggeration of a small line. 💪💪💪

#sanders sides #sanders asides #ts sides #thomas sanders #sanders sides spoilers #ts logan #logan sanders #orange side #sanders sides theory #these are just my thoughts #this line is going to make my head explode #analysis

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loganslowdown4 · 6 days

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Today I was thinking about how the dark sides are represented as ‘villains’ because c!Thomas thinks that that side of himself is reprehensible. Like he sees completely in black and white. And because of this, any thought or action that comes from that side is immediately villainized, to the point where they act and even look like cartoon villains.

His point of reference for ‘bad guys’ has always been from his experience with the media he consumes, like cartoons or video games. It’s actually an immature way of looking at himself.

I get the wanting to separate good from bad, and this works for the big moral yes or no questions. But there gets to be a point where we grow up and realize that most instances in our lives have shades of grey answers, which is actually why Janus and Remus are there. We eventually just accept those sides of ourselves as part of us.

And eventually, they become more mellow and we realize they’re just there for self preservation. It’s not selfish to look after yourself if you have to lie about something. We’re not bad because we have intrusive thoughts. Being bothered by them literally shows us what NOT to do. In their way, they are a form of moral compass.

Neither sides are there to make him comfortable, but being comfortable leaves you vulnerable when you need protection. So Janus and Remus aren’t great sides but they aren’t ‘villains’ either, as Thomas sees them. They deserve acceptance just as much as Virgil does, because, like Virgil, they’re working to protect Thomas just as much.

Just some food for thought today! 😁 Also check out the colours in Thomas’ tie whoa 👀🤍🖤

#ts theories #ts analysis #thomas sanders #sanders sides #Remus sanders #Janus sanders #Virgil sanders #ts janus #ts deceit #ts remus #ts virgil #c!thomas #SvS redux #villains #bad guys #dark sides

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intrulogical · 7 months

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remus isn't dumb; a sanders sides essay

i've been struggling to make a cohesive post about this because i feel like most of what i want to say boils down to the same underlying message which is: remus isn't dumb.

i feel like a good chunk of this fandom understands what i mean, at least to a surface level point. but even then, i think too much of the fandom still misinterprets remus' character in a way that, they seem to understand different traits of his, but the way they execute it is still way off from what we see in canon.

(rest of the essay under the cut!)

for example, the biggest thing i see people get wrong would be the way they write remus "lol random" personality. it's true that remus tends to say whatever he wants at any given moment. but, the problem here is that people tend to think remus as random in function. i have no better way to describe this succinctly, so to expound: while remus tends to make left-field jokes a lot, he is shown to be incredibly deliberate, cunning, committed, and intelligent in very subtle ways.

truth is, remus is very goal-oriented, and when he has a goal, oh he strives for that goal. so far, i'm writing this with the last 5 years episode being the most recent substantial episode, so i can't really 100% say all my assumptions of remus are true. actually, i think the upcoming season finale will be the missing link when it comes to providing us with the whole picture of who remus is.

as for now, i just have to stick with my theory of; remus, as a side of thomas' heavily connected to insecurities and mental health issues, intends to shed light on the "darker" sides of thomas because he believes them to be beneficial. throughout dwit, we see remus continuously bolster the idea that his contributions are useful for thomas. this continues in wtit, but with the extra layer of remus wanting logan as well to be in touch with the darker parts of himself to get thomas in line.

it is also heavily implied that remus is well in on whatever janus' plan is to get thomas to be a.) more aware of his mental health issues, and b.) to get thomas to break out of his catholic black and white thinking. in forbidden fruit, it's janus who’s seen permitting remus to present himself to thomas. bigger evidence though, as i've mentioned in the previous paragraph, is the way remus seems to deliberately want logan to manifest his anger against thomas.

of course, we can always say that remus taunted logan "just for fun", but i feel like too much of what happened in wtit seem to point to remus having deeper reasons. for example, wtit exhibits how bad thomas' mental health is to the point that he gets irrationally angry at nico for not replying to his texts. this proves how thomas has been neglecting his mental health, and with the way patton, virgil, and roman held onto toxic selfless ideologies for the longest time, thomas would still, naturally, be lost on what to do. he would even seem to deny how bad things have gotten, especially with the way he acts like nothing bad is happening when he goes to his date with nico.

why am i emphasizing this? well, it's because something i find interesting about remus' character is how deeply cognizant he is of thomas' problems. what i mean by this is, no other side can call out thomas' issues more than remus can. i wrote an essay about this before if you want to check this out, but tldr: remus, as intrusive thoughts, is the most perceptive out of all the sides when it comes to calling out insecurities or problems. we see this come to fruition in wtit when all of the traps he laid out for thomas involved nico in some capacity.

while you can interpret his character as evil for preying on others’ insecurities, i think it's important to acknowledge that, in a sea of people who tend to refuse to talk about their issues, remus is the main guy who constantly brings them to the table. whether remus' intentions are good or not, there's no denying that remus' importance as a side lies in the fact that he serves as a mental health alarm clock for thomas. with the way none of the sides want to communicate with each other, we need someone like remus to cut the bullshit and say things as it is.

again, we don't really know if he wants to help thomas. but i would like to emphasize that, yes, remus is not dumb. he does not merely make lewd jokes and calls it a day. he has the long-term goal of making everyone talk about more "taboo" topics with each other, and this includes talking about personal grievances the sides tend to suppress or refuse to talk about. lewd jokes are just part of the process.

i think this goal of his is also incredibly visible with the way remus treated logan in wtit. wtit is my favorite sanders sides episode because there's just so much to analyze between remus and logan, but you can check my other essays in regards to that. the main thing i wanted to point out is that what remus says to logan in the end, "woowee logan, now you're speaking my language. but who do you really want to scream that at?", proves he is more deliberate and cunning than he seems.

a lovely bit of analysis my friend orb (@orbmanson7) provided is that remus didn't just pop up in wtit to intervene with thomas' plans. he was there to intervene with logan's. if you've seen my other essays, i've talked about how logan as a side has been dwindling in terms of self-confidence and assertion. this has left a big problem of thomas being more reliant on his emotions, making him ignore the suggestions given by logan that may help with thomas' mental health in the long run. this is not to villainize thomas' mental health crisis, btw. all i want to say is that, remus recognizes how logan's self-restriction is doing no good and deliberately wants to push logan to become more assertive and angry.

that is why he says logan is speaking his language. he wants logan to recognize the merit in the way remus grabs thomas' attention. he wants logan to be like him and cause more havoc. again, we never know how much remus genuinely wants to help thomas, but we know that remus wants everyone to be more exposed to "taboo" things, and this includes logan being more in touch with his angrier side.

besides that, i'd like to mention how, in general, remus tends to be very committed to his goals more than how the fandom typically portrays him? in dwit, remus' main goal was to disturb thomas and the other sides. it's kind of just an introduction to his character. we're not sure if it's part of a bigger plan he and janus devised to get thomas to take care of himself better, but it is a possibility. the only time he gets too random is when logan begins picking apart his arguments. there we see remus only results to super left-field, continuous off-tangent jokes when he's desperate or placed in a lose-lose situation.

another, in wtit, we see how remus understands how to make very long, complicated traps. i think it's a perfect encapsulation of his personality, actually! throughout the episode, we see him make these multilayered traps with a ton of props and preparation just so he can bother thomas with it. it shows that remus is actually less impulsive-oriented as he seems. he even created a schedule he showed to logan detailing everything he wanted to do that day. again, deliberate! he is deliberate and very smart!

other thing i'd like to harken back to is the idea that he's in cahoots with the other dark sides to execute some Big Plan to break thomas out of his black and white thinking. while we don't know how orange acts like yet, we're Very familiar with janus by this point and we can see how long-drawn janus' plan of acceptance is. he's, again, sorry to use the word so many times, very deliberate. i don't even think his plan ends with svs.r, because it does seem like remus is well in on this plan too. in the 5 years video, he also seems to know more than thomas on what else is to come for the future of sanders sides, which implies he has some plans up his sleeve that no one else knows about. like i said, janus has the goal to break thomas out of his black and white thinking. and so far from what we've seen from remus, he also wants the same!

an important factor of remus' character besides his deliberateness is his general need to subvert what "goodness" means. "good and bad are all made up nonsense," he sings in forbidden fruit. throughout dwit he continuously criticizes everything thomas thinks is good or acceptable. in the 5 years video, he argues about how there's no "correct way of sitting". i think this also proves how remus is important as a side because, while not every single one of his beliefs are morally acceptable, he is still able to pick morality apart in a way the other sides are unable to. also, i just think this proves his character as just. generally smart? he's able to pick apart the status quo and moral philosophies, of course he's smart.

just to pick up on a previous point, remus is scarily perceptive. i mentioned this earlier with how remus is able to pick logan apart, but i'd like to add onto it more since i think a lot of people underestimate how crazily perceptive he is. for one, despite not being too close with a bunch of the other sides, he seems to be able to read their insecurities and play them against them really well. we see it in the way he uses virgil's insecurities of being an ex-dark side against him. we see it in the way he picks on patton and thomas' morality crisis against them. we see it in the way roman describes remus as someone being able to show him things he doesn't like about himself. and most importantly, we see it in the way remus constantly reaps the fact that logan isn't listened to to the point that logan snaps. as intrusive thoughts, remus' job is to see what deepest darkest secrets thomas and the sides suppress and use it against them.

at the moment, we don't really know if remus has any weaknesses, although wtit sort of implies that he himself is also quite irritated by the fact that thomas doesn't listen to him. he does a good way of hiding, though, how much of that problem is genuinely affecting him. it makes me think he's also smart in the way he's able to hide his vulnerabilities and true intentions from the other side. he's silly and goofy and lewd and because of that, everyone thinks he's harmless. the sides think he's unserious, and so does the fandom. but deep down, remus really isn't that stupid.

and LASTLY, when beta reading this essay, orb also mentioned to me about how remus possesses cognitive flexibility in a way roman doesn’t. this isn’t meant to discredit roman of course, but i think it’s important to mention that remus is the side with the least amount of restrictions when it comes to creative liberties. orb mentioned to me how remus is able to connect concepts easily in a way roman doesn’t because remus doesn’t operate under the same self-restrictive mindset. while this obviously would help thomas become more innovative as a creative, i think it’s also important to recognize how much thomas kind of needs it in general. much of the latter half of the series shows thomas dealing with restrictions, especially when it comes to doing good. it would be great benefit for thomas to be able to listen to a side who generally wants to Have a Good Time, and doesn’t abide by rules imposed onto them.

and yes that is my essay on remus 100/10 best character and is not dumb at all. very excited to see him in the finale and i hope y’all’s get your characterizations straight because i need me some good fics

#sanders sides #thomas sanders #remus sanders #my analysis #sanders sides meta

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let-roman-bite-someone · 9 months

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expanding on one of my previous posts, i really don't get it when fanders want to paint a certain side as "evil" or "toxic" and that certain side is always Patton

these are NOT individuals who think and make decisions for themselves. they are parts of a whole. each of them have a core quality, even if they tend to show other emotions sometimes.

Logan is not apathetic, he's literally the embodiment of logic, which is why he is so detached from anything fantastical or involving emotions. he did get better at dealing with emotions by coming up with logical solutions to it, but I don't think he will ever be able to understand or relate to emotions on the same level as Patton.

Roman isn't egotistic, he is the ego. he is the embodiment of Thomas's creativity and ego, meaning that it is completely natural for him to focus on himself too much or find it difficult to consider things from another side's perspective.

Patton is not unsympathetic, he is not toxic. I've even seen some people call him abusive?? he is a part of Thomas and unless one can abuse oneself, Patton is not abusive. Patton is the product of Thomas's upbringing, he cannot help being strict with his morals any more than Thomas can go back to his past and unlearn this unhealthy mindset. it's Patton's job to keep Thomas accountable for any mistakes he makes, and what these "mistakes" are depends heavily on what Thomas was taught.

something Virgil said in one of their earlier episodes is worth noting.

"You don't want me here but I am here, and this is what I do."

this applies to all of the sides. they don't choose to do what they do, Thomas does. if Patton is "guilt-tripping" Thomas or Roman about something, that's just Thomas naturally feeling guilty about said thing. if Virgil is trying to scare Thomas, that's just Thomas being anxious.

i know it sounds a bit like i'm not suspending my disbelief, but this is actually what happens in canon. just because the sides have physical forms and act like real people doesn't mean they are. and regardless of how much they change and grow, they will always have those core characteristics that define who they are.

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sagesparrow394 · 1 year

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So I heard it’s Mother’s Day in the US, so in honour of that, here’s a very late and mildly unhinged analysis of what roles in the family the Sides claim in the 5th Anniversary video

Patton - “I’m the dad”

In the ‘traditional nuclear family’ (ew) the father is typically seen as the head of the household, the breadwinner, the one with authority. This reflects how Patton has always had a position of authority among the core sides, with Thomas often putting his say first and relying very heavily on his opinion. However, much like how the idea of the father being the head of the household is outdated and problematic, so is the position of authority Patton is put in, which we’ve already begun to see. It’s time Thomas puts less pressure on Patton. Maybe even go to the ‘other half’ of the couple…

Logan - “Why am I the mom? What gender roles are we pushing here?”

Most notably, he is the only one who does not choose his role in the family. Patton is the one to assign Logan the role of mom, while Logan’s own feelings and thoughts on the matter are ignored. This reflects the issues he’s been dealing with throughout recent episodes, being ignored and overlooked. The fact he is in the mom role furthers this, with again, in the ‘traditional nuclear family’ (ew) the mother’s work and suffering often being overlooked, because she is simply doing ‘what is expected’ of her.

Roman - “I’m the son, the hotshot, who’s only dream… is to be a star”

Being “the son” of among the ‘Light’ sides potentially links to Roman’s feelings of inferiority, believing he has less power in Thomas’ life compared to Patton and Logan - not surprising after POF. And his sad tone when talking about his dreams links to his feelings of being failure, both with the whole callback debacle and Thomas literally becoming a star, and just generally in his desire to be seen as Thomas’ hero.

Virgil - “I know you think I’m the son, but I’m not. I’ll be the gay emo cousin.”

Virgil immediately starts by separating himself from the rest of the core four, placing himself outside of the immediate family. This links to both his current strain against Patton, but also his insecurities after revealing himself as having once been a ‘Dark Side’. He no longer feels like he belongs with the ‘Light’ Sides, as was affirmed in the first episode of season 2. Rather, he puts himself in the immediate family of the other ‘Dark Sides’.

Remus - “I feel like I’m a fresh out of jail uncle.”

“Fresh out jail” equals new to the group. No one knows much about him or what exactly his deal is, since he hasn’t been around long. However, what they do know is he’s come from “jail” - aka, was repressed for being bad creativity. Therefore, they instantly have a negative bias against him and assume the worst.

Janus - “And I’m the sassy aunt. Who talks shit about everyone…”

Despite being ‘accepted’ by Thomas and opening up about his name at the end of POF, he still positions himself with the ‘Dark Sides’ and not the ‘Light’ ones. This could mean two things:

1) He has still not fully been accepted by Thomas,

Or 2) He doesn’t personally see himself as ‘with them’. Whether because he knows full well the ‘Light and Dark’ dichotomy is meaningless, or because he doesn’t trust them back, or because not all of the ‘Light’ sides accept him yet, we don’t know.

Him “talking shit about everyone” is also notable. He is the one who can see the problems among the core four, viewing them from the outside. He knows their weaknesses, struggles and issues - and he is going to make them apparent, so that they and Thomas can finally deal with them.

Thank you for coming to my TEDTalk.

#sanders sides #thomas sanders #logan sanders #patton sanders #remus sanders #roman sanders #virgil sanders #sanders sides analysis #sanders sides theory

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beauty-and-passion · 7 months

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Selfishness v. Selflessness: Deceit’s reasons

And then, we finally reached the last episode of Sanders Sides.

Or what was the last official episode, until recently Mr. Sanders finally realized that hey, the Asides are following the main plot, maybe it’s time to consider them official episodes and not Asides.

And so, he changed the titles. If you check FWSA and DWIT now, you will find that their names are not followed by the title “Sanders Asides” anymore, but “Sanders Sides”.

While the infamous plushie episode which angered everyone because it was nothing more than an ad, magically became and Aside episode:

What can I say? Better late than ever, Mr. Sanders. This wouldn’t have happened at all if you planned everything from the start, you know that, right?

Oh, and in case you haven’t noticed: maybe you should also take FWSA and DWIT away from the Sanders Asides playlist. You know, just to keep it organized.

But let’s come back to Selfishness v. Selflessness: this was the first episode I ever wrote about - even if at the time it wasn’t a full analysis, but rather just some random, scattered thoughts. And they weren’t enough, because there is still a lot of stuff to talk about! Hence why, this post was needed.

This post will clarify a couple things I previously talked about, starting from the whole Wroammin thing which (sadly) turned out to be wrong. It can even be considered part of a triptych: THIS is the first part, THIS is the second one and the post you’re reading is the third and final part. Hope you will enjoy it and, as always, if you have anything else to add feel free to do it.

_______________________________

Why did Deceit appear?

[Logan]: -pops up- Eh... Speaking for someone is a disagreeable practice, Patton. If Thomas would rather go to the wedding, then I, the brilliant Logan, think we should hear it straight from the horse's mouth. Thomas, the floor is yours. Wedding or callback?

My gosh, this man isn’t even trying. First, he drops a character lie (“I, the brilliant Logan”) which is the exact same kind of lie he used the first time. Then he uses two idioms in a row. And scolds Patton in the meantime (“Speaking for someone is a disagreeable practice, Patton”).

I suppose he just wanted to appear, but he couldn’t do it without being ✨ dramatique ✨

But now your question could be: why did he appear? Well, as I anticipated in the analysis of CLBG, Mr. Sanders explained in a tweet that Character!Thomas’ relationship with Lee and Mary Lee is as strong as the one with Joan. Once again, a very strong relationship is at risk. And, this time, there’s also an event that might bring a major change in Thomas’ life. Everything basically requested Deceit’s presence.

_______________________________

The dark sides are all anime tsundere girls

[Deceit]: Virgil's very right. You can't trust me! It's not like I'm trying to look out for you or anything.

[Anxiety]: He thinks he’s so great. Well, he is not! Look, I’m just trying to look out for him. (Taking on ANXIETY)

Okay, jeez, fine, you definitely don’t know each other and you’re definitely not father and son. That’s all a huge coincidence, I surely believe that.

Now I can’t wait to see Orange saying: “it’s not like I’m looking out for you, baka!” to Thomas, then I can close everything and disappear forever 😂

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“He's against Nazis”

[Thomas]: ... Alright, he can stay. [Patton]: Hm? [Roman]: -incredulous laughter- Ah, wait, seriously? [Thomas]: Sounds like he's against Nazis, so... Why not hear him out? You know? [Virgil]: That... cannot be where the bar is!

I just love this part too much and it cracks me up everything. Remember, kids: you can be a snek, but if you’re against nazis, then everything is okay. I can’t wait for the moment Thomas will try to send Remus and Orange away, only for them to reply that, hey, they’re against Nazis too, so they deserve to stay! And Thomas will let them stay.

And then we will reach the lowest bar in the world and everything will be perfect.

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“Social engagement”

[Deceit]: Well, the bar for skipping an important opportunity should be higher than a... social engagement. [Patton]: Come on, a wedding is more than just a social engagement! [Virgil]: He knows that.

Of course he knows that, he bears the name of a god who presides over weddings. Which yes, it’s hilarious and I love it.

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Same area of expertise

[Patton]: What is this wacky talk? I- You don't mean any of this. I'm your morality, I wouldn't be here if you did! [Thomas]: Right, right. Yeah, you're right. I- I don't mean that. [Patton]: And Roman, I thought you fought for honor! Why are you pushing Thomas to be dishonest?

Deceit knows what Thomas truly wants and it’s to go to the wedding. However, two sentences from Patton were enough to make him understand that:

Patton is the one who is truly in charge

Patton’s ideas are strong enough to influence Thomas

Thomas could change his mind because of them

Roman desperately wants to go to the wedding

Roman could change his mind because of Patton

And so, Deceit intervenes and makes Patton aware of something: sure his presence means Thomas still thinks about his morals… but he’s not the only one here:

[Deceit]: Do you know who else is here? Me! So perhaps, Thomas... isn't so innocent. [Patton]: Well... Nobody's perfect... Except for Thomas! He loves his friends! [Deceit]: You can defend him all you like... But you can't change the facts. Is Thomas an innocent little lamb? Let's let them be the judge of that.

And with this, Deceit:

proved he’s Thomas’ Side and not a random guy. He is a Side, just like all of them and he won’t go anywhere.

brought up the problem that will be solved in POF - i.e. Patton’s view of Thomas as a perfect, innocent boy.

moved the entire problem to a higher, moral level. This isn’t just a “choosing wedding or callback” problem anymore: this is Deceit’s way to prove Thomas’ fallibility and humanity.

And he wants to prove it to Patton. And if Thomas is confused about all of this, Patton is not:

[Thomas]: Um, I'm a little confused as to what this is all about. [Patton]: Basically, Deceit is trying to prove that you care more about yourself than your friends, but don't worry, kiddo, we'll show him.

Again: the supposedly stupid guy immediately understood what Deceit was trying to prove and followed him in his reasoning. Because, in case it wasn’t clear enough, these two work in the same area of expertise.

And if you need another confirmation that these two are a lot more similar than it seems:

[Deceit]: He's clearly manipulating the witness into doing what he thinks is best. Wait a minute. Who was it that was called a Scooby-Doo villain for doing the exact same thing? Oh, yeah! It was me... disguised as Patton.

So not only Deceit confirmed Patton isn’t perfect, but they are similar enough, he can do what Patton does and there would be no difference.

These two work in the same field and they’ve been hinting it here all the time, before clearly stating it in POF.

_______________________________

Multiple arms

I forgot about this detail and thought that the multiple arms thing Remus brought up was a metaphor. Well… maybe it wasn’t. Maybe the noodle snek really has six arms.

This goddamn man, he really has one arm for each Side. And he probably uses them to smack the Sides in the head/stop them from doing something stupid. I love him.

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An attempt at maturity

[Thomas]: And that's what you stand for. Truth. [Patton]: But I don't know what's true at this point. I just know what I want to be true. I want to believe you're an honest person... but... Deceit's right! He's here... and that means something. [Thomas]: Are you serious? I- I've been following your lead this whole time. I'm in the dark here, Patton, and I need something to light my way! [Patton]: I'm sorry... b-but... I don't know the way. [Thomas]: I don't want to be a bad person. [Patton]: Okay, then I'll do whatever I can to make sure you're not.

Do you know what is this? This is the moment that led to POF.

Patton was getting Deceit’s message. He was starting to understand Thomas isn’t perfect. He even admitted he didn’t know the answer.

But Thomas was too scared, too afraid of being seen as a bad person. And so, Patton had a choice: to side with Deceit, accept that his morals have been too extreme and guide Thomas by giving him a more mature, multifaceted understanding… or doing POF:

[Patton]: Like I told you before, sometimes... I don't know the way. But... When I told you that, you were so scared. I couldn't bear it. So I said to myself... "Alright, Patton. Thomas needs you. You're responsible for his morality. You can never not have an answer for him." And then I promised you I'd keep fighting. Unfortunately... I learned the hard way that... giving too simple of answers to complicated questions... can do more harm than good.

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Virgil’s interrogation

[Deceit]: -chuckles- Very well. As Thomas' anxiety, do you have any relevant information about his norepinephrine levels in regards to these two conflicting commitments?

I’m pretty sure someone already said something about this hormone back when the episode came out, but I don’t remember - also, I found this very interesting paragraph from Wikipedia I would like to share:

“The general function of norepinephrine is to mobilize the brain and body for action. Norepinephrine release is lowest during sleep, rises during wakefulness, and reaches much higher levels during situations of stress or danger, in the so-called fight-or-flight response. In the brain, norepinephrine increases arousal and alertness, promotes vigilance, enhances formation and retrieval of memory, and focuses attention; it also increases restlessness and anxiety.”

As you can see, Virgil’s two main functions are both involved in this hormone. And norepinephrine has a spike during stressful situations - like, you know, choosing between a callback or a wedding.

But the mention of this particular hormone implies something else. Something very important, that will connect with the second part of this conversation.

Deceit mentioned an incredibly specific hormone and, by doing that, he proved how well he knows Virgil. He doesn’t know just his roles, but even the effects he has on a chemical level. It’s a bit like the difference between knowing your colleague from their job and knowing how many miles they can run on the weekends. It implies a much closer relationship.

Also, since he asked how high the levels of norepinephrine are, that means he knows Virgil is stressed. He knows this situation makes him more anxious and, with his questions, he wants to prove to Virgil (and to everyone else) that he is anxious because he knows what Thomas wants: to skip the wedding and go to the callback.

[Virgil]: I think it's ridiculous that anyone is entertaining any of this. Guys, he's a liar. You literally know him as Deceit. [Deceit]: Glass houses, Virgil. You yourself said that you are not a beacon of truth.

The famous “You literally know him as Deceit” line is a clear reply to Deceit’s question about norepinephrine. It’s Virgil’s way to say that yes, he knows him extremely well too. The others “know him as Deceit”, but he knows Deceit for who he is.

And, okay, now that’s probably me looking too much into things again, but the way Deceit replied by saying that he’s not always right and shaking his finger… it’s almost like a warning. A (maybe unconscious) way to say to Virgil to not reveal more, because he’s not always right.

And to further prove his point, he proceeds with a subtle threat:

[Deceit]: Oh, so you've never been reluctant to share anything with the group, then? [Virgil]: Don't. [Deceit]: What? I just meant your name. [Virgil]: Don't! [Deceit]: Maybe that's why it's so easy for you to recognize me for what I am. Like I said before... it takes a liar to know a liar.

And with that, Deceit proved to Virgil that:

He knows what he’s hiding from the group (i.e. that he was one of the Others)

He knows him extremely well, because he knows Virgil doesn’t want to talk about it yet

He has the upper hand, because if Virgil says something, he can immediately drop his secret and screw Virgil’s position in Thomas’ eyes.

_______________________________

An unexpected help

So, after threatening his son and showing how much of a villain Deceit can be, what does Patton do?

He pushes him to show his soft side, by forcing him to reveal his agenda.

[Patton]: You... always seem to have some... bigger plan. Some... agenda. [Deceit]: Doesn't everyone? [Patton]: Well, not everyone is so secretive... about theirs. [Deceit]: Everything has a purpose, and sometimes fulfilling your purpose requires keeping things close to the chest. [Patton]: Well, you're under oath, which I think means you gotta tell us. Why the courtroom scenario? Why pick a setting where... uh, the truth comes to hang out?

As soon as Patton had the chance to ask him a question, he immediately ignored the wedding/callback thing and went straight to the point. And it makes sense, because the point of their conversation is a bit more important than a single choice.

Patton wants to know what this Side is trying to do. And when Deceit brought the conversation to a higher level by talking about society, Patton brought him back to the main topic: Thomas. What does Deceit want to do with Thomas?

And by forcing him to be a little more honest, Patton helped him. He helped Deceit to drop some of his convoluted plans, to clearly say he cares about Thomas.

[Patton]: Okay... What does any of this have to do with Thomas? [Deceit]: I don't want Thomas to be disadvantaged in a world where you can die for not following the laws made in the name of a lie.

That’s why I always say Patton is incredibly mature. He’s working against Deceit, they are literally against each other in this courtroom scenario… and yet, he helped him. He gave him a chance to show his soft side, to prove he’s not a bad guy. And to tell how useful he can be! A bit like “an inner coach that acts with the intention of self-preservation”, as Patton said in CLBG.

_______________________________

Always and forever on Thomas' side

[Deceit]: Look, the point is, Thomas is an unconscious egoist and this dilemma is actually between something that serves him versus something else that serves him. Between looking and feeling like a good friend and a dream come true. If Thomas wanted to be seen as a good friend more than he wanted the role of a lifetime, well then I'm all for that. But I just don't buy it.

This part is extremely interesting, because Deceit said both choices are something Thomas wants. From one side, there’s personal gratification (Thomas wanting to be a good friend), from the other there’s personal fulfillment (Thomas doing something he loves). They are both selfish wants, in a way. So, if all Deceit cared about were selfish wants, he would have no problem with them. This whole courtroom scenario wouldn’t take place at all.

Be he has a problem because he wants what Thomas wants. And since Thomas is denying his want to do a different thing… well, that required Deceit’s intervention. As he said: if Thomas wanted to go to the wedding, he would’ve accepted that choice. He doesn’t care about Lee’s feelings, just like he didn’t care about Joan’s feelings in CLBG. The only feelings that matter for Deceit are Thomas’.

And only when Thomas finally admits his want, Deceit is satisfied.

[Thomas]: Fine! I want to go to the callback! I was planning on playing Word Crush on my phone during the wedding ceremony to keep my mind off the fact that I'm single. I don't want to go! I'm afraid to go. And on top of that, a dream come true fell into my lap scheduled on the same day. Anyone would want to go to the callback! So, yeah. I tried to force myself to forget about the wedding, and now I want to lie to my friends, so they don't hate me for not supporting them. I'm a liar. I'm a liar.

Deceit put on a whole courtroom, just to force Thomas to be more honest. This alone would be enough to prove he’s not just the embodiment of lies, but I suppose the correlation “snek = liar” was stronger than 200 proofs, so Roman did the wrong thing and made a choice no one wanted.

_______________________________

A mature Side

[Roman]: It's my sworn duty to help Thomas achieve his hopes and dreams. But Thomas wouldn't dream of attaining his hopes through deceitful means. [Deceit]: But that's not true! [Virgil]: And you're a beacon of truth? [Deceit]: Oh, did I say that? I missed the part where I said that.

Please let’s focus on Deceit’s words because they are very, very interesting.

1) Deceit openly admitted his means weren’t deceitful. Just like when he asked Thomas, during the courtroom if he was “the snake come to trick you into sinning, or have you had your mind made up since the moment you received the news about the callback?”. Deceit had no intention of deceiving Thomas, from the first moment he appeared.

2) Deceit is a very mature Side. I talked about it during my POF analysis part 3, when he openly recognized his own mistakes. Here he openly admits what Thomas is having trouble admitting: that he’s not perfect. He never said he was. He never pretended to carry the truth. Even if he’s 100% right here, he still admits he’s flawed. He and Patton are truly the most mature Sides here.

_______________________________

Caring and criminal

During the episode, he said that “fulfilling your purpose requires keeping things close to the chest”. And where did he keep his logo? On his chest. Even better, on his heart. What else does he have to do, to prove how deeply he loves and cares about Thomas? This man is the most caring Side.

[Deceit]: I'm not going anywhere. And there are smarter ways to get people to do what you want, anyway.

Uh, so “smarter ways to get people to do what you want” means “let’s release Remus”?

You know what? That really was a smarter way. With one decision, he introduced Remus, proved he’s harmless and even useful, showed Thomas that ignoring his needs leads to an increment of his intrusive thoughts and confirmed that he was right and Thomas should’ve listened to him.

This man is a criminal and I love him.

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Why Logan can’t work in the moral area

[Logan]: It's still difficult to believe that my participation was as restricted as it was. It was Deceit's doing, I'm sure. I would have been a more than worthy foil. Unlike him, I'm skeptical about whether a society could function without some sort of system of laws by which all of its citizens abide.

Oh Logan, you huge nerd. I love you, but this is why you don’t work in Deceit’s and Patton’s same area of expertise.

Deceit’s whole monologue about society wasn’t practical, but moral. He didn’t say “we should surrender to anarchy”, nor presented a point about why rules are bad: he said society is a concept and we all collectively choose to believe this concept was true. He talked about how scary the concept of society is. And he clearly saw it on a moral level, not a practical one.

And yes, we can add this to the list of reasons why Logan was pushed in the back: just imagine if, instead of talking with Patton, the other moral side, who was incredibly quick to get his points and ask him about his agenda, we got Logan: a neutral Side, more interested to practical things than metaphorical/moral ones. Deceit would’ve spent most of the time rephrasing everything and the conversation would’ve been just about this choice, rather than a multilayered conversation about selfishness, selflessness, Thomas’ fallibility, and choices in general.

Deceit needed Patton as interlocutor and he needed to remove the cold, straight logic from a conversation that was mostly about morals and emotions: two areas Logan is not an expert about - as he will admit in POF.

[Logan]: Well, determining what feels right or wrong for you isn't really my area of expertise.

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Truly taking care aka the wedding from Lee and Mary Lee’s perspective

[Patton]: Well, here's the thing, kiddo. People hurt all the time. By going to the wedding, you're making sure that two of your friends aren't hurt by the absence of someone they really care about.

Okay, time to put the most cynical part of me here.

Patton’s words are cute and nice and everything… but seriously. Come on.

Just imagine being the bride or the groom: you spent the previous days, weeks and months organizing for this event. Locations, entertainment, ceremony and everything. Then the day comes and you want to be 200% sure everything goes as smoothly as planned. You have people coming to ask you about this or that detail. You have to be sure your dress/make-up is okay, your best men/bridesmaids are okay, the photograph is here, the meal is good, the place is ready, the staff is preparared.

And, when it’s time, you have the ceremony, the people to greet, photos to take, meals, events, dances and so on.

Do you really, REALLY think that Lee and Mary Lee would be so devastated by Thomas’ absence? I’ve never been married, but I really doubt that one missing guest (and not a best man or a bridesmaid or another important guest: just a guest) would have made them feel so devastated. Weddings are huge, stressful events, a ton of things happen and the newlyweds barely have time to eat, let alone feel devastated by a missing guest.

And I would like to repeat that: a guest. Thomas didn’t play any important role. He wasn’t supposed to be Lee’s best man or anything else. He was just a guest.

Do you know what it would’ve happened, if Thomas skipped the wedding? That Lee and Mary Lee would’ve thought “Oh, Thomas didn’t come”, to completely forget about it two seconds later, because someone else would’ve called them to do something else.

And no, going anyway isn’t a question of empathy, but of naiveness - and egoism too. Thomas himself proved it in POF, when he showed his frustration, because he wanted a little more than a “hello”. He literally wanted them to throw him a party, just for coming! Who would ever think the newlyweds would give a damn about them, on such a huge day? No one, except for a very egoistical, naive person: egoistical enough to think they are the only one who matters, naive enough to think the bride and the groom have time to do a party for them. That’s childish, immature and very selfish, not empathetic.

Do you want to know what Character!Thomas could’ve done, if he wanted to show some empathy? Skip the wedding.

Think about it. What would’ve been better? Thomas moping around and not enjoying himself, thus ruining the party for everyone else… or Thomas not appearing at all and letting everyone enjoy the party? Which choice is the most empathetic? Call me a bad person, but I think the second one would’ve been a better way to care about other people’s feelings.

Also because Lee and Mary Lee noticed it:

[Lee]: Really? 'Cause you're sitting alone at the reception.

And, at least to me, that’s way worse than not attending it at all. Thomas was such a buzz kill, he ruined the party for the bridal couple too. That’s literally the most selfish, bad thing he could’ve done. And only because he didn’t want to listen to the snake boy.

This event deserved to leave strong consequences. And POF is proof of how huge the impact was on Thomas’ life and how deeply things will change from now on.

( Support me on Ko-fi )

_______________________________

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#sanders sides #sanders sides theory #rewatch #analysis #thomas sanders #janus sanders #patton sanders #roman sanders #remus sanders #logan sanders #virgil sanders #ts thomas #ts janus #ts patton #ts logan #ts roman #ts virgil #ts remus #selfishness vs selflessness

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tentacle-therapissed · 1 month

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Thinking a lot about the significance of Patton representing both c!Thomas’s feelings and his morality. Because it’s been made very clear that c!Thomas’s way of dividing the facets of himself cannot be universally applied to everyone, and the thing is that one’s morality being based on their emotions is very much not the case for everyone. There’s a reason ethos and pathos are two separate appeals in the rhetorical triangle, yet in Sanders Sides the pathos guy also represent c!Thomas’s ethics.

Think about it; every Side has their own unique moral code based on what they represent. The fact that they all have different viewpoints on what they believe is the best thing to do is the reason they have arguments like SvS in the first place. But despite this, Patton is the only side who actually represents Thomas’s morality. Roman and Logan both personally believe it is best for Thomas to go to the callback but encourage him to go to the wedding anyway because that’s what Patton believes is the right thing to do, and therefore that’s also what c!Thomas believes is the right thing to do. One’s ethics could just as feasibly be based in logical reasoning (what is the best course of action based on facts, statistics, and probability?) or self-preservation (what is the best course of action to fulfill my needs and desires?) or even idealism. But Thomas’s are based on his feelings. See a cute dog? Adopt it, the poor thing needs a home. Friends need help with something? Oh, you love your friends, they’re so wonderful! They deserve everything you could possibly offer them. Homelessness is sad, volunteer at your local soup kitchen. Violence is disturbing, shut it down!! It doesn’t matter if what you’re doing isn’t logically sound, or if it’s creatively unfulfilling, or if it serves to your own personal detriment; You should do what feels right. And considering natural law is the basis of Catholic moral theology, it makes perfect sense for him to associate his morals with an intrinsic part of him like his emotions rather than a conscious thought process. Plenty of us do not subscribe to natural law theory, however, and if I were making my own Sides I very much would not have my morality Side and emotions Side be one and the same.

But it’s not just Patton, is it? Roman represents Thomas’s hopes, dreams, and passions because most of Thomas's passions, career, and hobbies are creatively focused. But every Side also has their own motivations. Their own passions. Their own reasoning skills. Their own fears. Their own anger. Yet not all of them represent Thomas’s passions. Thomas’s reasoning. Thomas’s fears. Thomas’s anger. What would happen if Thomas’s passions were more aligned with Logan’s role? If his ethics were more aligned with Janus’s role? If his punctuality was more aligned with Virgil’s role?

And what would it look like if c!Thomas’s anger was somehow most aligned with Logan’s role?

#didnt feel like typing c!Thomas every time but like. I’m exclusively talking abt the character here #sanders sides #sanders sides analysis #meta analysis #virgil sanders #logan sanders #orange side #roman sanders #janus sanders #remus sanders #patton sanders

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prodigal-explorer · 2 months

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cant send this on anon. sad! anyways i think the point of pattons arc is to accept that the others have importance. learning to not bottle up his feelings was the first step to fixing a larger issue about himself, that being that he tries to put all responsibility of himself. and that manifests in a lot of ways, including not respecting the others and their roles.

but then you get to the end of pof, and after janus resigns to being wrong about everything, patton says that they both know that's not true. that to me signifies that something shifted in him after pof. thats him directly recognizing that janus was right. that selfishness was the right choice, that janus is important. and this is a direct consequence of janus pointing out his flaws to him (when he turns back into a human he admits that he doesn't know what hes doing and he cant pretend that he does anymore. which is a direct response to when he resolves to make sure thomas isnt a bad person in svs)

does that mean he's good at it? no. not at all. but i do think hes trying. given that hes already had a major breakdown in a video i cant see the same happening for the finale but he should definitely take time to acknowledge the others roles. maybe he can talk logan/orange down and tell him that the rage he feels is justified and important to thomas? something like that. i would love it if remus got a chance to be involved but i have the bad feeling hes gonna be the designated one dimensional comedic relief. which i kinda get why but also come the fuck on. anyways thats my two cents idk

i completely agree with you homie!!!

i also appreciate the nuance in this take cuz so many people fly to my askbox and try to tell me that patton is some innocent baby and that he should never be criticized ever because "he's trying!" and that's not what you did you actually spoke like with intelligence which was so fucking awesome to read. /g

i absolutely agree with everything you said. this is patton's arc. his arc isn't "i'm too nice and i need to stop being too nice" HELL NO that's not his arc whatsoever and there is no indication of that being his arc even though people constantly pretend that's his arc. NO. his arc is that he needs to learn that he is not the end-all-be-all of thomas' mind, and that he is not always the most important voice in the conversation. though he doesn't have overstated hubris, how highly he thinks of himself and how lowly he thinks of the others is blatantly obvious through his actions, and he's slowly getting better at, like, NOT doing that and it's really good change to see! he still has a...long...long...LONG way to go, but at least he's going somewhere. i just wish people would acknowledge this super interesting journey instead of watering patton down and being super fucking annoying whenever i try to critique him the tiniest bit.

#thomas sanders #sanders sides #tss #roman sanders #sanders sides fandom #virgil sanders #patton sanders #logan sanders #remus sanders #janus sanders #sanders sides analysis #sanders sides fandom critical #tss fandom crit

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part-time-zombie · 6 months

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I kinda can't stop thinking about this hold on...

Remus is upset because he's being ignored (something logan can understand and relate to) and decides to make sure logan knows how he feels about that. We all know logan has already been ignored by everyone else and is still upset by it, but remus is doing it now deliberately to upset him.

Logan defends himself, saying that remus (and himself as well maybe...) shouldn't be ignored at all. He tries to explain that he wasn't ignoring remus, but merely trying to make sure thomas finished his chores uninterrupted, but remus isn't having it.

He continues to ignore logan, not listening to or believing what he's saying, and frankly I don't think I can blame him.

Almost every time remus practically begged for any sort of interaction from logan, who is arguably the only side who doesn't roll their eyes or flinch at him, he was shut down and put away.

I get that remus finds entertainment in many ways logan may find odd or even juvenile, but you have to admit he must feel awfully lonely right now to do anything for a reaction from him.

The best he gets is either a condescending remark or a patronizing dismissal, even though I'd argue he's been trying to help thomas as well for this whole episode (forcing him to confront his fear of loneliness so he can better manage how he deals with isolation)

He wants to help, and he wants logan to at least acknowledge if not appreciate that, but by the time logan decides to actually say anything about it, remus is already fed up and over it, and ready to give him a taste of his own medicine by ignoring him.

When logan snaps, and starts to fight for recognition, remus relents because now he feels they're both on even footing now. Now they've both reduced themselves to begging for attention, but they're also begging the wrong people and they both know it.

I'm not saying logan was in the wrong here, in fact I understand his motivations and am not holding it against him, but I'm also saying that what remus is doing here is more than just some petty tantrum, it's a calculated confrontation they both need to have.

#sanders sides #logan sanders #remus sanders #ts logan #ts remus #angst #analysis #hear me out #thomas sanders

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orbmanson7 · 9 months

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And here's the last part of the analysis of the "The Sides Need a Nice Day" video, this time, let's talk about Janus and Remus.

(If you want to read the first part about Patton and Logan, go here.

If you want to read the second part about Virgil and Roman, go here.)

Right away, we have Janus letting us know he's about to one-up Patton and Virgil's attempts at cheering another side up, for whatever reason he feels compelled to do so (because acceptance isn't a competition or anything, right?), and says he will be giving Remus a nice day.

Specifically, he says that "freaks deserve nice days too" which is a funny but wonderful sentiment, because it shows that Janus sees Remus for what he is but also doesn't want him to change anything about that. Remus deserves to be who he is and enjoy himself, as they all do, which is kind of the whole point behind this video, even though it hasn't really been obvious up to this point, probably because Janus is being far more direct about it than the others were.

To explain, if you look back at Patton and Logan's part, you'll see that Patton wasn't trying to change anything about Logan and came up with things he would enjoy doing, but he wanted to do them far too quickly for Logan's liking.

And with Virgil and Roman, the suggestions all turned out to be things Virgil thought Roman would like but he changed those things to be something they might both enjoy instead, which wasn't really giving Roman anything he expected.

But Janus knows Remus very well, recognizes the purpose behind the trend is to simply give someone something they want and let them enjoy it, and he's prepared to properly do what the others had failed at, to give another side a nice day without flaw.

Also, Janus not knowing where the pens would be is likely meant as a little hint that Janus is still very unfamiliar with the light sides' area and where they'd keep things. Not sure how he knew where to find the note cards, though...

Janus goes looking for Remus in a dark closet, expecting him to be there but is still startled when it turns out he is.

He quickly gets to the point and simply tells Remus what to do and what the result will be. No constant questions back and forth, no push for an explanation, Janus just tells Remus what to expect immediately. See how easy that is?

Remus doesn't seem too pleased before picking the card, but is delighted after he sees the result. This may imply Janus has offered to do things in the past that have not been enjoyable for Remus, but that could be a stretch. We don't know these two well enough yet to really be sure.

Janus, though with little emotion, tells Remus to 'have at it' and that he's convinced Thomas to 'lean into his intrusive thoughts' for the day. It's very likely that this means Thomas is merely thinking out these scenarios, not actually participating in them, which would still be enjoyable for Remus as someone who delves in the imagination just as much as Roman. It also would keep Thomas out of any real-life repercussions for these actions and keep down his stress and anxiety, as well.

Considering DwIT showed that just the thought alone would often put Thomas on edge, it makes sense that these actions are thoughts being leaned into and imagined rather than legitimately happening (and would also explain some of the unused options on the cards). Thomas has learned by now that thinking about something doesn't make you a bad person, and who better to convince him to have a little fun with that than Janus?

Remus excitedly grabs for the next option, instantly delighted by what it turns out to be. This really does show that Janus understands Remus rather well, he knows what Remus enjoys and doesn't have to change anything to make him happy. This comes from knowing each other, likely for a long time, and Janus not just knowing his interests but also understanding why Remus likes something.

However, on the next round of options, Janus remarks that he can't believe he's doing this. He's either in disbelief that he's doing these nice things for Remus all to show up Patton and Virgil, or he is regretting how much effort he's put into this with how easily Remus is entertained by it.

Janus doesn't seem bored, but he's definitely doing this for Remus and not enjoying the activities alongside him.

As I mentioned in the last post about Virgil and Roman, this is likely in relation to love languages that have been on display throughout the whole video.

At this part with Janus and Remus, though, Janus is using his knowledge of Remus' interests to give him something he'll enjoy, making this the love language of 'gift-giving'. However, he's also acknowledging that these are activities others would be weirded-out by and then saying nothing negative about it. Janus is encouraging Remus to do these activities, regardless of what anyone will think, making this the love language of 'words of affirmation' in its own unique way, by validating what Remus enjoys.

While you could argue the others also did this, it means a lot more for Remus in particular, as someone whose entire presence is seen as a bad thing, that any ideas he may have are hazardous and awful, and he's shut down and ignored as much as possible at every turn. Something as simple as saying that it's actually fine if he wants to dangle a phone off the side of a bridge is incredibly kind to do for him.

But this also shows us that he's very used to being ignored and suppressed, because he was absolutely enamoured at the thought of getting to do any of these activities. From his reactions throughout this entire part, we know he would be equally as excited to eat paper as he would to summon Bloody Mary, which just proves that point. It's not just the extreme ideas of his that get pushed away, it's all of them. Remus finally getting the chance to act things out that he thinks up and enjoys must mean a hell of a lot to him.

Remus then thanks Janus in the end, a great big smile on his face, and Janus sighs and says "you're welcome. Don't say I never did anything for you."

It's possible this is just a little joke, but if it did mean something, it could be implying that Janus and Remus are not quite on equal ground in the current timeline of the plot. This would make sense, as Janus has just been accepted by Thomas, but only just. This still puts him leagues above where Remus is, even though Thomas does seem at least more used to him being around, at least.

This could cause a rift between Janus and Remus if it's not addressed soon, but Janus will still be working to earn his place amongst the others, so we'll have to see how that pans out.

It's also possible that Janus' line is more in reference to his overall purpose in the show. He operates more as Self-Preservation, but that doesn't have to be exclusive to Thomas, as many of the other sides can affect one another, as well. If he's attempting to restore some balance to Thomas' mental health by getting some of the other sides to understand their own biases (as he's been doing so far), this could still put Remus at a disadvantage until Remus is more accepted as Dark Creativity rather than Intrusive Thoughts. This may explain Janus' line if he's already been accused or expects to soon be accused of not paying enough attention to Remus, because Janus' priority will still have to be Thomas' well-being and that could put Remus at the bottom of his priorities.

He may not want Remus to change, but it's going to take a lot of work before the others can be ready to handle Remus without any changes, and he may know that a little too well, considering how long it's taken just for Janus to be accepted.

But, in the end, Janus did manage to prove his point in this part of the video, that he absolutely knows how to give another side a nice day, far better than Patton and Virgil, that's for sure.

He can be proud of that fact, for knowing Remus so well, but hopefully that isn't something he has to toss aside for Thomas' sake any time soon...

#sanders sides analysis #janus sanders #remus sanders #sanders sides #long post #ts spoilers #hella remus angst in here whoo #orbs thought bubbles

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emoprincey · 5 months

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Sanders Sides and autism

Ok, it's the last day of @autisticsidesweek today, and I figured this would be the perfect time to post this essay about how I think Sanders Sides relates to autism.

Headcanons about the Sides being autistic are pretty commonplace, which isn't surprising given how many autistic people there are in the fandom, and in fandoms in general, for that matter. As an autistic fander, I am of course partial to these headcanons. But that's not exactly what I want to address today.

Today, I want to talk about how the concept of Sanders Sides naturally lends itself to having autistic-coded characters, and how this coding is actually a fundamental part of the show.

Before I start, I think it's relevant to mention that Thomas has ADHD. This has a lot of symptoms in common with autism, and is probably a big reason why some of the Sides resonate so strongly with autistic people. However, I think there are other aspects of their characterisation that also make them unintentionally autistic-coded.

First of all, the characters have very clearly defined personality traits and interests. While autism can lead to someone having an unclear sense of self, it does come with a need to sort things into categories. An autistic person might define themself by specific traits, such as being creative or logical.

Additionally, the Sides' interests often seem like special interests - that is, an interest that feels more important than a regular interest, and I speak from experience when I say a special interest can consume every waking thought and make it impossible to think about anything else. This is most obvious with Virgil, whose interest in emo subculture and music informs not only his taste in music but his dress sense, and his personality. But this is also true of the other sides - Roman is not actually a prince, but he dresses as Prince Charming and always tries to act like a prince, Patton tries to fit the role of a dad, and Logan a teacher. All of them base their personalities and styles around one specific interest or trait, the way an autistic person might do with a subject they're interested in.

Even the fact that they wear the same clothes all the time ties in with this. Autistic people very often have comfort items, including clothing which they want to wear every day. From a meta perspective, their costumes obviously stay the same to make characters played by the same person more distinct, and because of wardrobe budget. But in-universe, these are characters who have the ability to shapeshift into whatever they want, and wear whatever they want, yet they always choose to stick to the same outfits.

Secondly, the characters in Sanders Sides have difficulty seeing things from anyone else's point if view. This is an integral part of the series, and many of the plots revolve around the Sides struggling to understand each other’s perspectives. Logan and Roman notably get into a lot of arguments as a result of not understanding each others perspectives. Low empathy or varying empathy levels in different areas can be a trait of autism, which is part of the reason autistic people find it hard to relate to others, and I think this is present in Sanders Sides.

I've already mentioned how autistic people often group things into categories. This can also come across in a very black-and-white way of thinking about things. From personal experience, I'd describe this as only seeing things one way or another - for example, finding it difficult to compromise, or accept that people can do both good and bad things without being sorted into the categories of Good and Bad. This isn't the case for all autistic people, but both of these examples are particularly relevant to Sanders Sides. The whole idea of the light side/dark side dichotomy is a pretty straightforward example of this kind of thinking.

Patton in particular has a very black-and-white way of thinking about morality, and inability to see things from a perspective other than his own. Another thing linked to autism is a strong sense of justice - or at least, a strong sense of perceived justice. This means that autistic people tend to cling to the morals they've been taught, (whether that is because of the black-and-white thinking, or finding comfort in clearly defined rules in a world where little else seems to make sense, or a combination of the two). This is exactly what Patton does. He also struggles to see how the moral standards he's been taught could possibly be wrong.

It would be remiss of me to write an essay about autism-coding in Sanders Sides and not dedicate a section to Logan specifically.

Logan has a lot of more well-known autistic traits. He likes schedules and punctuality, meeting deadlines and making sure all of his time is planned. A lot of autistic people struggle to function without a rigid schedule and don't like changes to plans.

He also has a tendency to take things literally. This is shown by his panicked reaction of "who gave him a knife?" to Virgil’s "can I take a stab?". He always clarifies when he means something figuratively, because he would need the clarification if someone was talking to him. Idioms and slang phrases don't come naturally to him, so he uses note cards to help himself remember them.

He's very single-minded and struggles to see things from other's perspectives. Although he makes a clear effort to try, it does take conscious effort that it probably wouldn't take an allistic person. When discussing schedules with Roman, he doesn't see anything wrong with only leaving 5 minutes for creativity, because that's not his domain.

Difficulty connecting to or identifying one's own emotions can also be a trait of autism. Logan states frequently that he doesn't have emotions, or doesn't feel anything. That is honestly what autism can feel like sometimes. Even if the emotions are there, it can be really difficult to tell the difference between sadness and anger, feeling tired or frustrated or just hungry. This reminds me of Logan because even though he's clearly been angry and excited and scared on screen, he still insists that he doesn't feel those emotions.

This is all to say, I think the fact that the sides base their lives on specific interests, generally have difficulty empathising with each other, and other aspects of their characterisation make them unintentionally autistic-coded. This format of show especially lends itself to that because of the characters personifying abstract concepts and having very distinct designs.

#sanders sides #virgil sanders #logan sanders #roman sanders #patton sanders #the dark sides aren't rlly mentioned that much so i won't tag them #sanders sides analysis #autisticsidesweek2023 #i could maybe elaborate or word things better in future. im tired but i wanted to get this out today

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rambling-prince-thoughts · 9 months

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there’s been a lot of discussion about logan and roman during the recent sanders sides episodes and for good reason. the two of them have been through so much, with The Sides Need a Nice Day showcasing that they really do deserve break after all the angst.

however, one character that’s also been facing heavy struggles throughout this time is patton. despite being the side that gets listened to most often by thomas, he hasn’t had the most optimal experiences in a while either, especially since the inclusion of janus and remus into the narrative and the events of selfishness vs selflessness.

this post will focus primarily on the events of Dealing with Intrusive Thoughts but will contain references to all the other episodes throughout.

a little background on patton shows us that he is who thomas tends to refer to in order to receive advice on how to be a good person. being the embodiment of morality, patton does seem to hold a standard for the concepts of “good” and “bad”. it’s a very rigid standard and if something doesn’t match accordingly, patton gets uncomfortable and tries to change it.

an obvious example of this would be patton’s reaction to remus in dwit. in a simplified, black and white sense, intrusive thoughts are bad. they’re harmful and the content of these thoughts is negative and unwanted so it makes sense that patton would want to relinquish remus’ hold on thomas immediately.

as a result, patton is also afraid of remus. during his introductory song, remus states that good and bad is “all made up nonsense” because even though he seems to be the “bad” creativity to roman’s “good” creativity, the line that separates both brothers isn’t as fine as it looks.

logan attempts to explain to thomas that life isn’t black and white and the contrast between roman and remus only appears because that’s how thomas visualises them in his mind. to thomas, roman is good because he encompasses the pleasant part of creativity, the part that’s socially acceptable.

on the other hand, remus is what thomas wants to avoid at all costs. therefore remus becomes bad. in the moments before logan’s explanation, patton insists that imagination is good and stresses that roman is creativity, not remus. he’s insistent on driving remus out of the conversation and away from thomas.

patton’s biggest fear is that thomas is a bad person and that he hasn’t accomplished his goal in trying to make thomas the good person he believes him to be. janus’ influence on thomas proved that thomas wasn’t naturally just good, and it created doubt in patton’s mind that was otherwise not there. he assumed thomas was, by all standards, a good person, and having that illusion shatter in front of him has him questioning not only thomas, but also his own actions.

now with the arrival of remus and thomas thinking unpleasant thoughts, that fear has reawakened. at the end of svs, patton did end up getting what he wanted: that thomas go to lee and mary lee’s wedding. he believed it was the best course of action and the most morally good course of action.

in fact, during this episode, logan reveals to everyone that it’s not remus who’s been hurting thomas and disrupting his schedules, but virgil and patton instead.

when patton disagrees with comparing thomas to jeffrey dahmer, he also refuses to set the bar at whether or not thomas has murdered someone, like jeffery dahmer had. but logan points out that patton, of all sides, should know that isn’t where the bar is.

as he goes onto explain, thomas’ upbringing has instilled a strong moral code in him as well as christian values. this explains why morality plays such a huge factor in thomas’ decision making and why he’s so reliant on patton to make his decisions. thomas thinks with his heart, not his head, to make the decisions that are best based on what’s good or bad rather than what’s efficient or rational.

in svs redux, when thomas laments on the fact that he could have just spoken to his friends about skipping their wedding to go to the callback instead, patton is still severely against that thought. skipping the wedding would logically have been the better decision for thomas- he might not get this opportunity again, and as logan mentioned, the wedding only offers thomas a potential spike in depression.

which it did. the only thing thomas got out of the whole situation was a new highscore in word crush and a sense of guilt and regret over everything that happened. not exactly the most ideal rewards for the sacrifice that he made to get there.

however patton tried to convince him that going to the wedding despite all the problems was a good idea because thomas was able to support his friends! it may not have been the rational choice but it was the good choice, the selfless choice. in patton’s world, altruism is purely good and selfishness is purely bad.

that’s why all the examples he gave in svs redux were curated so that thomas would have to make the altruistic choice or risk being a bad person.

now, patton isn’t in this for manipulative means. he is genuinely trying to help thomas given what he knows of situations. thomas’ dependence on him throughout the series has developed him into being an all knowing father figure, who needs to choose the right option so that thomas can do what he needs to without being a bad person. thomas fears being bad, which is why he hides away everything that makes him bad.

while i’m not qualified to talk about christianity or its religious teachings (as i’m not christian), it is interesting to note that patton being the father almost makes him the quintessential god figure.

the father, who thomas must listen to, who knows right from wrong, who decides whether thomas is a good or bad person based on his actions, and the one who can punish him for making the wrong choice. janus is the snake come to trick thomas into sinning, and remus is another dark side whose authority would cause thomas to act and think in ways that are considered wrong.

it’s not unlikely to assume that the reason that thomas’ creativity split in the first place was because morality dictated that there were pleasant and unpleasant thoughts and the distasteful thoughts were repressed and cast aside out of fear that thomas would be punished for having those thoughts.

even though patton didn’t intend it as punishment, him berating thomas all night and trying to force intrusive thoughts out of his mind was chastising. at the end of the episode, patton even stated that thomas had his “permission” to think those thoughts and thomas admitted that it did help to know that.

thomas needed permission from his moral side to be allowed to have intrusive thoughts. because up until then, patton didn’t realise that they were normal and okay to have. he was afraid that they made thomas an evil person simply because they were evil thoughts.

blaming patton for overreacting wouldn’t be right either, because ever since the first sanders sides video he’s been making a genuine effort to help thomas. he is misguided and rigid in his values but he isn’t malicious or deceptive. when logan said that virgil was the one who caused thomas to stay up all night, it didn’t surprise either patton or remus, given that virgil was anxiety and his reaction made sense.

but when logan said that it was also patton, remus seemed to be genuinely surprised and patton turned to look at logan with a stunned expression.

he couldn’t believe that he was the one who had been making thomas feel bad about himself, and moreover he hadn’t been listening to thomas when thomas insisted time and again that he didn’t like having these thoughts and that he wasn’t enticed by what remus was saying. this is patton realising that despite his best efforts, he was ultimately causing thomas to have persistent difficulties grappling with who he was and why he felt like he couldn’t be a good person.

in patton’s constant struggle to prove thomas’s goodness, he put thomas up on a pedestal that was impossible to escape because it required him to be as altruistic as patton assumed was the norm for a good person, even if that goal was unreasonable or for some reason unattainable.

our lord of the lies said it himself when he berated patton for misleading thomas.

as janus put it, patton wasn’t capable of misleading thomas. his intentions were sincere and he wanted to help thomas the way that he’s always helped him. but morality isn’t the same for adults as it is for children. when thomas was a child, things were easier. kids are more easily swayed by the effects of good and bad than adults are, simply because ethics for a child aren’t as nuanced as they can be for adults.

thomas depended on patton because according to him, patton has never steered him in the wrong direction and so he’s certain that for every decision, if he consults patton, he can end up making the right choice. that has worked for most of his life because as a kid, he made simple choices. ones that didn’t involve the level of critical thought that they now do.

so in trying to be that rock for thomas, patton has given himself the power to know and decide what he thinks is best by weighing the options as good or bad. it’s a terrible scale, but the only one he knows. so when thomas starts to listen more to suggestions from janus or roman where he might end up doing the wrong thing— such as lying to his friends about why he’s skipping the wedding— patton immediately puts his foot down. he won’t let thomas do that.

this isn’t helpful. while there is effort, it’s clear that this approach has been hurting thomas more than helping him. patton keeps trying to do the right thing but that’s only possible if thomas’ mental health is balanced but with everything that’s happened, thomas is hanging on by a thread and patton can’t see that.

the plane is already crashing. now is the time to take a step back and focus on himself.

even patton ended up having a crisis over what to do, which caused him to become lilypadton. he thought he had everything figured out. he thought he had all the answers. but he doesn’t. and this strikes him during a moment when logan (janus in disguise, but patton doesn’t know that) tells him that he’s forcing thomas to risk his own life and health for other people.

suddenly, patton doesn’t know what’s right. he just knows what he wants to be right. and thomas, who has depended on him all his life, is looking to him for help but he doesn’t trust patton as much as he used to anymore and patton lost his chance to make up for his knee jerk reactions in svs and dwit.

he crumbles under that pressure. he’s really pushing to make things right, and his principles conflict with that. like thomas, who in dwit couldn’t accept that he was having intrusive thoughts because his own principles stated that having these thoughts was bad, patton too wants to make everything better but he isn’t able to do that because there’s a disconnect between what he thinks is right and what is actually helpful to thomas.

patton looks to janus for help, because now it’s janus who’s giving the advice. thomas is listening to him. the plane crash was patton’s fault, but janus has pulled thomas out of the rubble.

he thinks he’s bad for thomas. he has tried his best to help, but none of it has worked. in the end, he was part of the problem. he apologised to thomas in svs for being dishonest, he apologised in dwit for his reactions and he has to apologise again in svs redux for lashing out and being too pushy. how many times can he say sorry before it loses meaning? how many times can he say sorry before he admits to himself that he’s just bad for thomas?

hopefully patton can figure out a balance between knowing what is right and helping thomas figure out what is best for him before the orange side is revealed to us, because as @rataticaisdreaming pointed out in one of my previous posts, if patton continues to disapprove of what he thinks is wrong, it might cause a remus 2.0 situation. especially if orange has influence over logan, and patton makes logan feel guilt over it.

overall, i do think patton has been making a steady improvement. his attempt to reconnect with logan and help him is sweet, and he really does fix his mistake when he figures out that he’s been rushing and needs to chill out. this isn’t the first time logan has told patton to chill. but it is the first that patton has listened to him and actively slowed down.

i have hope for patton. i always will.

#sanders sides #rambling prince thoughts #patton sanders #patton angst #sanders sides analysis #patton might have been a little too much #but he’s getting to a better place #and i am proud of him #hopefully now things can work out a little better #i love his little ‘i did it!’ at the end of his scenes with logan #truly shows that patton is trying #we love him for it <3

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