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#sanders sides theory

justyourtypicaltuesday · 3 days

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An addition to my Logan speculation

I swear I have other theories, but I was thinking and noticed something else from my favourite episode (WTIT) that ties in with my last post.

In the end card, Logan says:

"I suppose this isn't the worst distraction Thomas could have."

That quote's been rattling around my head for a while, and I think I've figured out why. Using the series' own logic (pun sort-of-intended?), distractions have their uses: when Thomas can't reasonably do anything in the moment to solve the problem, and when Thomas is overwhelmed with intrusive thoughts and needs a break to reset.

However, by the end of the episode, Remus leaves. This means that Thomas logically should tell Nico he's busy, schedule to hang out another time, and finish cleaning his apartment. But he doesn't do this. So why is Logan accepting an illogical conclusion?

I think it comes back to self-doubt. We've seen before that a side can lose confidence in their opinions over what Thomas should do. In fact, we've now seen every other core side do this. Roman in Selfishness V Selflessness, Patton in DWIT and SvS Redux, and Virgil earliest of all in AA.

So, it's Logan's turn. Going forward, we might see Logan react in a similar way to the others when they've experienced this before. Being more hesitant to share their opinion, relying more on supporting points by others and doubting if what they believe really is true.

I find it hard to believe that Logan's objective has changed so quickly. He's been solidly established as putting Thomas' health first, more-so the way of supporting what he needs over what he wants. This contrasts with the other sides, most of all Patton and Roman, who mostly act on Thomas' desires.

That means that Logan is either in the process of re-evaluating his position on the matter, or, more likely, is suppressing his thoughts and, in a way, lying to the others.

This is where my theory comes in. I've already explained that I believe a Janus v Logan conflict is coming, and Logan lying is the perfect setup for that. What is even more interesting is that it's becoming more and more likely that this conflict is going to come from a Janus-sympathetic standpoint.

In conclusion, Logan's doubting himself and learning to hide his opinions and this is most likely going to be used as ammunition for Janus to have solid ground to stand on in the finale. I am a strong believer that Janus has a larger plan for the sides, with honest intentions to improve Thomas' life in a way the core sides will protest against, but that's a conversation for another day.

#ts sanders sides #logan sanders #sanders sides theory #sanders sides #ts janus #ts logan #janus sanders #deceit sanders #ts deceit #tss deceit #tss logan #sasi #ts sides #tss #tss janus #tss theories #sanders sides theories

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let-roman-bite-someone · 3 months

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ah, you know what my first thought was when i got to this scene?

when logan started off as the side who tried to approach problems as fairly and open-mindedly as possible, and encouraged thomas to not jump to conclusions or assume ill intent.

but he gets ignored, underestimated and sidelined so often that he himself started giving in to the cognitive distortions.

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clydesavage-thefox147 · 3 months

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So, I was rewatching Perfect Gift again for like the 100th time and I just make a realization.

It's about the newspaper that Logan was given. He was so quick to assume it was just a cheap newspaper and nothing else to it. That's pretty depressing when you think that he's not seeing things in a deeper perspective anymore. It's as if he doesn't see a point to do so anymore.

It was sorta like how in the 5 year Anniversary vid, when Thomas asked "What do you think is next for us?" And Logan gave up and said "You tell me". He doesn't see the point in putting his two cent in anymore and starting to think that the others don't see him more than just a boring, worthless, out of date person that's just a stereotypical nerd.

However, when he starts actually looking deeper into the newspaper, he sees something different, something unexpected. A well thought out puzzle for him specifically. Showing that the others, Virgil specifically, knows Logan is more than boring. He like reading, yes. He likes puzzles, yes. Making it a game full of mystery and fun? You wouldn't think Logan would be into that but he is. It proves there is more to Logan. A happier side to him that he's repressed for means of being taken seriously.

The newspaper is a representation of Logan. On the outside, he's inconspicuous. He's normal. He's put together. You wouldn't think much of him or give him a second thought or glance. But, once you look deeper and actually start reading into him, you see a whole new, different person. Someone happier. Someone interesting. Someone hurt. Someone frustrated. Someone... that's more than meets the eye.

#sanders sides #sanders sides fandom #thomas sanders #logan sanders #virgil sanders #sanders sides headcanon #sanders sides theory

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yourfanderfriend · 4 months

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!! SPOILER WARNING!! ⚠️

What if there was something more to Logan’s statement?

In the newest episode, “What Makes a Perfect Gift?”, when Logan hints to Virgil that he is disappointed with his newspaper, he makes a point to say:

“… there was obviously something about my personality that made you think a newspaper would be a proper gift for me, and whatever that is, I will have to reflect on that. This whole activity was to serve a higher purpose anyway.”

Thomas then assures Logan: “You’re doing good, Logan.”

They never discuss what exactly “the purpose” was. I also believe the wording of Logan’s statement was odd. This could just be a nod to his past history of disconnection with the group, but I believe it could be more.

I propose:

Could he be talking about the Orange Side?

I believe that “the aspect of his personality” Logan needs to reflect on could be a reference to Orange.

We already know that Orange and Logan are connected in some way, hence, the glowing orange eyes. They never discuss “the purpose” or “the aspect his personality” after it’s brought up.

Something about how Thomas said, “You’re doing good Logan,” tells me that Thomas, in some capacity, can see how much of a hard time Logan had. Janus and Remus obviously know about Orange, but what about the others?

Could it be that Logan is trying to keep Orange at bay?

Logan was the Side who ultimately decided to initiate the Gift Exchange. This is odd.

They even call this out when Roman says: “Logan, you’ve never run one of these things.”

Patton agrees with that statement saying: “Hey, yeah! It’s usually me or Roman. Wha-?”

Logan replies: “Well, things are a little different this year.”

Logan is trying new things and intentionally going out of his way to make sure Orange is not shown to the rest of the group.

He is making an effort to reconnect and get away from the one-dimensional “smart guy” stereotype because he can see how that can feed into Orange.

I would like to hear other people’s takes on this line. There are many ways you could interpret it, but it seems so cryptic that I might as well apply it to a theory of mine. Enjoy my over exaggeration of a small line. 💪💪💪

#sanders sides #sanders asides #ts sides #thomas sanders #sanders sides spoilers #ts logan #logan sanders #orange side #sanders sides theory #these are just my thoughts #this line is going to make my head explode #analysis

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serpentinesomebody · 2 years

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The end card in the newest Sanders Sides episode (CPIOH) hit me hard and I wanna talk about one of the reasons why

Notice how each side has one plushie of themselves? Roman and Patton even talk to their plushies like how they would talk to themselves or a close friend. Virgil is sleeping, but he cuddles his plushie. Logan, though?

Logan has plushies of ALL of them.

The other three sides having one plushie of themselves and talking to them/keeping them close shows more of an introspective perspective. They’re finding comfort from within themselves. Logan having plushies of all of them shows that his struggle is external. He doesn’t think he’s part of the group, and that’s not something he can fix by looking within himself or comforting himself. Having all the plushies together symbolizes what he wants for himself, in reality.

#am I looking way too much into this?#most likely #do I care?#no #sanders sides #sanders sides theory #ts logan #sanders sides spoilers #ts spoilers

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canon-transgender-virgil · 10 months

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ALRIGHT I HAVE SOME TIME SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS (also shut up i only noticed the typo when i was taking this screenshot-)

Okay, so I noticed a common theme in all the videos that orange (or Orange) is in: right after you see the color orange, you can see some form of shame or embarrassment in one of the characters.

Let me explain.

Let's take the flash card scene from Learning New Things About Ourselves.

As many people know, right when you see Logan crumple up the flashcard in his hand (like the upwards POV shot), you can see orange light coming from up the stairs. Many people (as I've pointed out, like, three times now) believe this to be the first time we see Orange show up.

Now, logically, many people take seeing the color orange show up when someone is visibly angry to mean that Orange is the representation of anger, but I think I disagree.

Look at Logan's face immediately after the flashcard hits Roman.

That's not anger. That face says a lot of things, but it doesn't say rage. It says, most notably, "I wish I hadn't done that".

AND! I can't believe I forgot about this but Logan literally says "I do regret throwing that paper at puppet Roman" in the Five Years Later episode! He says the words "I regret throwing the paper"!!

I'm going to get back to the Five Years Later video later but keep that in your mind.

I wouldn't put much thought into this if it was just a one off thing, but it's not - Logan's not even the only who exhibits this sort of behavior!

In Putting Others First, what is the first live action scene we see (that isn't the recap of course)?

That's orange. That is Thomas bathed in orange.

And again, Thomas may be angry here but this anger is mainly directed at himself for letting himself go to the wedding and not the callback!

Patton I feel is in the same boat, where he regrets or else is embarrassed by not being able to answer "Logan's" questions (for context here, Lilypadton's eyes are orange).

And then there's Working Through Intrusive Thoughts.

Logan was mad of course, but I think, once again, this is more so the regret of not putting his foot down earlier and making Thomas listen to him (hence the lashing out not thirty seconds before Thomas decides to abandon their plan).

Alright, on to a more solid bit of proof: the Five Years Later video.

There is a whole segment in this episode about C!Thomas and the other characters talking about their regrets.

Aside from the aforementioned Logan's regret of throwing the paper at Roman, there were some other notable reactions to this question:

Roman's regret of making Thomas go to the wedding in the first place (cementing my earlier point that that wasn't fully anger on Thomas's face but rather regret about the situation entirely) is a major one, but then there's Virgil's entire CVS receipt of a list (ranging from "boiled carrots" to "achieving consciousness" - mans is full of regret), to Roman's mirrored regret from Logan's about wishing he'd thrown something at Logan before Logan got the chance to throw the flashcard at him, to Janus's regret of "lack of attention to detail" (which, while unrelated to this discussion, I thought was an interesting point to make before the release of the season finale - hopefully we get to see more disguised Janus content in the finale? 👀👀 )

It's also interesting to note that in the Five Years Later video Remus is the only one who doesn't have any regrets about, you know, anything. That makes sense obviously in the context of who Remus is as a character but it also tracks that the one of the only characters who doesn't seem threatened or scared of the Orange Side has no regrets.

This is all I have for now, but if anyone would like to add on to this please do.

#sanders sides #thomas sanders #ts logan #ts roman #ts patton #ts virgil #ts janus #ts remus #sanders sides theory #sanders sides theories #orange side theories #orange side theory #orange side #ts orange side #god it took me so long to get back to this draft i have a whole ass different name

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i-read-by-lamp · 4 months

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I’d just like to once again pose the concept that Anger fucks with Logan specifically because anger blinds logic which is why his eyes glow when he gets mad at Remus after being ignored by Thomas all day. Idk if I believe that Logan Is Anger^tm but I could see a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde situation since generally when you’re angry logic goes Out The Window.

Tbh though I really hope they’re separate entities because we haven’t seen a different side have such total control over Logan the way Janus and Remus could control the others. Logan isn’t really affected by Janus outside of the hand over the mouth, and he isn’t afraid of Remus. Do you know how fun it would be to have a completely new side just be able to nerf Logan and make him lose his common sense? And it’s not a “oh his dark persona that shares his body” situation?

Like imagine a side that shows up and just completely knee caps Logan. Logan can’t see it but there’s a side behind him feeding into his frustrations, a whisper in his ear when the others try to confront him about it. Because the second logic loses its grip in conflict it opens the door for anger to take the wheel. Anger possesses you and overwhelms you. Maybe Logan is just particularly vulnerable to the manipulation right now because of his repressed emotions.

I just can’t see this going any other way except it all blows up and logic is no longer in the building all we have is A Very Angry Side being boosted in his anger by a side he can’t even *see*.

Even better is if everyone else can see Anger but Logan is just Mad^tm and can’t see anything.

#sanders sides #logan sanders #virgil sanders #roman sanders #patton sanders #remus sanders #janus sanders #sanders sides theory #lamp talks #lamp has thoughts

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muppetable · 1 year

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y'all wait stop cause what if when janus gets his song it's like a tango or something?? and he goes around and dances with the other sides. if he does that i want to see him dip either roman, logan, or virgil. because him dipping roman could be a good opportunity to see the little bits of manipulative flirting jan did in svs, if logan becomes a dark side like the theory goes, or at least keeps up whatever connection he has to orange, it could be a metaphor for him controlling lo, and if it's virgil he could taunt him about his past as a dark side.

what's great is that through use of special effects, stunt doubles, and camera angles, this could be a great editing trick and could TOTALLY work. i mean we had the clock that was just zooming in accepting anxiety 2, and the remus face thing on two silhouettes at once in dwit during forbidden fruit, so masking like this has been done before and can be done again if they need to show two faces at once. and of course if they can't mask it they can always use split screens too, they just have to choreograph it just right so that's possible.

i'm just saying.. if there's any side that's gonna try and dance with others, it's janus. him or roman, but roman's too depressed for that.

#sanders sides #janus sanders #sanders sides theory #anxceit #roceit #loceit #thomas sanders

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sagesparrow394 · 1 year

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So I heard it’s Mother’s Day in the US, so in honour of that, here’s a very late and mildly unhinged analysis of what roles in the family the Sides claim in the 5th Anniversary video

Patton - “I’m the dad”

In the ‘traditional nuclear family’ (ew) the father is typically seen as the head of the household, the breadwinner, the one with authority. This reflects how Patton has always had a position of authority among the core sides, with Thomas often putting his say first and relying very heavily on his opinion. However, much like how the idea of the father being the head of the household is outdated and problematic, so is the position of authority Patton is put in, which we’ve already begun to see. It’s time Thomas puts less pressure on Patton. Maybe even go to the ‘other half’ of the couple…

Logan - “Why am I the mom? What gender roles are we pushing here?”

Most notably, he is the only one who does not choose his role in the family. Patton is the one to assign Logan the role of mom, while Logan’s own feelings and thoughts on the matter are ignored. This reflects the issues he’s been dealing with throughout recent episodes, being ignored and overlooked. The fact he is in the mom role furthers this, with again, in the ‘traditional nuclear family’ (ew) the mother’s work and suffering often being overlooked, because she is simply doing ‘what is expected’ of her.

Roman - “I’m the son, the hotshot, who’s only dream… is to be a star”

Being “the son” of among the ‘Light’ sides potentially links to Roman’s feelings of inferiority, believing he has less power in Thomas’ life compared to Patton and Logan - not surprising after POF. And his sad tone when talking about his dreams links to his feelings of being failure, both with the whole callback debacle and Thomas literally becoming a star, and just generally in his desire to be seen as Thomas’ hero.

Virgil - “I know you think I’m the son, but I’m not. I’ll be the gay emo cousin.”

Virgil immediately starts by separating himself from the rest of the core four, placing himself outside of the immediate family. This links to both his current strain against Patton, but also his insecurities after revealing himself as having once been a ‘Dark Side’. He no longer feels like he belongs with the ‘Light’ Sides, as was affirmed in the first episode of season 2. Rather, he puts himself in the immediate family of the other ‘Dark Sides’.

Remus - “I feel like I’m a fresh out of jail uncle.”

“Fresh out jail” equals new to the group. No one knows much about him or what exactly his deal is, since he hasn’t been around long. However, what they do know is he’s come from “jail” - aka, was repressed for being bad creativity. Therefore, they instantly have a negative bias against him and assume the worst.

Janus - “And I’m the sassy aunt. Who talks shit about everyone…”

Despite being ‘accepted’ by Thomas and opening up about his name at the end of POF, he still positions himself with the ‘Dark Sides’ and not the ‘Light’ ones. This could mean two things:

1) He has still not fully been accepted by Thomas,

Or 2) He doesn’t personally see himself as ‘with them’. Whether because he knows full well the ‘Light and Dark’ dichotomy is meaningless, or because he doesn’t trust them back, or because not all of the ‘Light’ sides accept him yet, we don’t know.

Him “talking shit about everyone” is also notable. He is the one who can see the problems among the core four, viewing them from the outside. He knows their weaknesses, struggles and issues - and he is going to make them apparent, so that they and Thomas can finally deal with them.

Thank you for coming to my TEDTalk.

#sanders sides #thomas sanders #logan sanders #patton sanders #remus sanders #roman sanders #virgil sanders #sanders sides analysis #sanders sides theory

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asingerofdreams · 4 months

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Just noticed that in "Working THROUGH Intrusive Thoughts", when Thomas leaves and we get the shot of Logan looking around the space, the lyrics from the song in the dance scene which had been appearing throughout the rest of the episode ("We Could Fly" by Sam Sparro) are, "stop trying to hold the world"

IM SO UNWELL

#working through intrusive thoughts #wtit #sanders sides theory #sanders sides #Logan and the desire for Thomas to listen to him vs. feeling like everything is telling him he's being 'controlling' ... FIGHT!!!!#logan sanders #c!thomas

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ms-awesome52 · 5 months

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Something small I noticed in the new Asides vid we got today:

In his first appearance, Remus's eyeshadow was a purplish grey, but in this newest vid, it's ocean blue, aka, Logan blue.

IDK if this is just a change in makeup that happed over the years or if it means something, like Remus's focus being on Logan or smth

#sanders sides #remus sanders #logan sanders #sanders sides theory

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let-roman-bite-someone · 1 month

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thinking about how Virgil probably understands how Logan is feeling right now. how Logan feels like no one wants him around anymore, no one values his opinions, the other sides occassionally villanize him or act like he's the problem; and Virgil gets it. he knows exactly how it feels.

and that's why he doesn't make a big deal out of Logan jumping to conclusions about his present. it probably hurt Virgil to see Logan immediately assume that he didn't care enough to prepare a good present but in the end, all Virgil says is “and you thought I would just get you a newspaper”.

because he's been in this exact position before and in that moment, it was Logan who gave him some believable assurance that he is not unwanted, that his presence means something to the rest of them.

so when Logan jumps to a conclusion and assumes that Virgil doesn't like him all that much, Virgil doesn't take it personally. he's just returning the favor.

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justyourtypicaltuesday · 21 days

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So What's Up With Logan? - a speculating post for the season 2 finale

While I, like everyone else, am anticipating the season finale, I thought I might as well summarise my thoughts in a post.

In LNTAO, Logan outright explains he's irritated with being repeatedly ignored.

"There will be times in which I must be heeded and given our... current circumstances... I clearly haven't been."

This really stands out to me. It's no secret that due to being consistently talked over, shut up and disregarded, Logan's struggling to deal with his emotions- and keep up the facade he puts up pretending he doesn't have any. This is only evidenced further when he throws paper at Roman. But this quote almost feels like foreshadowing, suggesting that there will come a time Logan's the only side with the right answer, and because of the sides and c!Thomas' practice, they won't listen to him and will exacerbate the problem doing so.

Another interesting quote from LNTAO is hidden in plain sight- the overlapping verses from Logan and Thomas in Incomplete.

"This just serves as a testament to the fact that you have a temperament, which is fine, you just haven't accepted it, if you'd let them finish they'd get to the-"

"This just serves as a testament to the fact that to me you're negligent, which is fine, it just works to your detriment, you not letting me finish is proving my-"

Both verses here provide context into Logan's character. This confirms that c!Thomas is fully aware that Logan has emotions, specifically a temper, and that, in his eyes, the song was an attempt to get Logan to accept that part of himself. This could be setting up a very powerful scene in the finale, Janus and/or Thomas confronting Logan at a point when Logan pretending he doesn't have emotions is actually damaging Thomas as a whole.

Additionally, Logan feels neglected by Thomas. That's a word which is not used lightly. He points out that being ignored is actively causing detriment to Thomas, which he conveniently doesn't hear as he's talking (singing?) over him at this point in time.

They're both right. Logan is ignored to the point of detriment, but he also thinks highly of himself ("I'm the most important side here!") and often disregards the others' contributions until he's actively proven wrong. This is a repeated character flaw of Logan's. It's also seen Growing Up, Moving On, and even in Asides like Can Plushies Improve Our Health?. While Logan's been the cause of minor conflicts in the series, having him cause a problem on a scale similar to Patton in POF would be intriguing to see from a narrative standpoint. It's clear that in the latest episodes, Logan is struggling and maybe at some point soon, constantly being antagonised by c!Thomas and the other sides is going to have an effect.

This brings me to WTIT. This is the last plot-dependent episode we've had, so it naturally is where a lot of my theories are coming from. While we can see a lot of Logan's progress as a character- specifically in prioritising Thomas' mental health- we also see his lowest point so far. Thomas' mental health has been steadily declining since SvS, introducing Remus, the discussions during POF and this episode all make it obvious. And this is reflected in Logan. Despite taking precautions and relaxing the schedule so Thomas feels comfortable, Logan loses his cool when he yells at Remus. What the orange eyes mean is TBD, but Logan's emotions in that moment say one thing and one thing only: he can't keep it down much longer. Each time we see Logan lately, he's been more and more distressed. In LTNAO, he throws paper at Roman, in SvS he's left out. In DWIT he's exasperated the whole time trying to calm down the others. In POF he's clearly done with exerting any amount of effort getting them to listen to him. And here is the result of all that pent up anger.

"I just want to help Thomas become the best version of himself he can be, and in order to do that, he needs to listen to me. Unlike yours, my methods aren't the flashiest, and it's not very often I get the chance to get through to him. Please understand my insistence on the matter."

The words right before his outburst mean a lot too. Logan's been already established as a perfectionist, but here he outwardly admits his goal is to improve Thomas as much as possible. We've already seen c!Thomas second-guessing himself because of difference in opinion between sides, so here's an opportunity to explore Janus v Logan conflict. Logan questioning Janus' advice to Thomas to take it easy could mean that the rest isn't as effective as it could be and cause a problem they'll need to discuss. Logan's been largely absent from Janus-related episodes, so an argument in which Janus explains Thomas has worth as he is while Logan is focused on perfectionism and improvement is not unbelievable at this point in the story.

On the topic of Janus, I believe he's going to play a huge role in Logan's character development. The main thing holding Logan back is that he's lying to himself. He repeatedly insinuates and sometimes outwardly states that he doesn't have feelings, and both c!Thomas and Janus know this is a lie.

"I don't feel anything."

"Oh, of course you don't."

My theory is that Janus, as practically a living lie detector, is going to confront the sides about the lies they tell themselves, and being more truthful about themselves will help Thomas long-term. While this can be explored for each side, I'll save that for a post for another day and point out how specifically Logan's lie about not having feelings is already questioned multiple times in the series, setting it up to be confronted soon.

In conclusion, my speculations for the season finale are:

Logan's going to have another outburst- in full view of c!Thomas and the other sides this time, and it will have to be addressed.

Janus/Thomas and Logan are going to confront each other, Logan over being repeatedly ignored and sidelined, and the others over Logan consistently lying about not feeling emotions.

Logan is going to be the outright antagonist in at least one episode of the finale, along the lines of Patton in POF.

On the contrary, in one episode Logan will have the right answer, but be ignored because... well, duh.

Janus v Logan conflict is going to be a large plot point- addressing perfectionism and to what extent you should accept yourself as you are and to what extent you need to work on growth.

If you got this far, thanks for reading. It's my first post as a blog and I hope you enjoyed reading my guesses to what we'll see surrounding Logan in the finale. I'm planning on continuing with in-depth analysis of other sides and other theories I have, but so far this is what I've gathered in regards to Logan's direction at this point in the series.

#sanders sides #ts sanders sides #ts logan #logan sanders #janus sanders #ts janus #sanders sides theory

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beauty-and-passion · 7 months

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Selfishness v. Selflessness: Deceit’s reasons

And then, we finally reached the last episode of Sanders Sides.

Or what was the last official episode, until recently Mr. Sanders finally realized that hey, the Asides are following the main plot, maybe it’s time to consider them official episodes and not Asides.

And so, he changed the titles. If you check FWSA and DWIT now, you will find that their names are not followed by the title “Sanders Asides” anymore, but “Sanders Sides”.

While the infamous plushie episode which angered everyone because it was nothing more than an ad, magically became and Aside episode:

What can I say? Better late than ever, Mr. Sanders. This wouldn’t have happened at all if you planned everything from the start, you know that, right?

Oh, and in case you haven’t noticed: maybe you should also take FWSA and DWIT away from the Sanders Asides playlist. You know, just to keep it organized.

But let’s come back to Selfishness v. Selflessness: this was the first episode I ever wrote about - even if at the time it wasn’t a full analysis, but rather just some random, scattered thoughts. And they weren’t enough, because there is still a lot of stuff to talk about! Hence why, this post was needed.

This post will clarify a couple things I previously talked about, starting from the whole Wroammin thing which (sadly) turned out to be wrong. It can even be considered part of a triptych: THIS is the first part, THIS is the second one and the post you’re reading is the third and final part. Hope you will enjoy it and, as always, if you have anything else to add feel free to do it.

_______________________________

Why did Deceit appear?

[Logan]: -pops up- Eh... Speaking for someone is a disagreeable practice, Patton. If Thomas would rather go to the wedding, then I, the brilliant Logan, think we should hear it straight from the horse's mouth. Thomas, the floor is yours. Wedding or callback?

My gosh, this man isn’t even trying. First, he drops a character lie (“I, the brilliant Logan”) which is the exact same kind of lie he used the first time. Then he uses two idioms in a row. And scolds Patton in the meantime (“Speaking for someone is a disagreeable practice, Patton”).

I suppose he just wanted to appear, but he couldn’t do it without being ✨ dramatique ✨

But now your question could be: why did he appear? Well, as I anticipated in the analysis of CLBG, Mr. Sanders explained in a tweet that Character!Thomas’ relationship with Lee and Mary Lee is as strong as the one with Joan. Once again, a very strong relationship is at risk. And, this time, there’s also an event that might bring a major change in Thomas’ life. Everything basically requested Deceit’s presence.

_______________________________

The dark sides are all anime tsundere girls

[Deceit]: Virgil's very right. You can't trust me! It's not like I'm trying to look out for you or anything.

[Anxiety]: He thinks he’s so great. Well, he is not! Look, I’m just trying to look out for him. (Taking on ANXIETY)

Okay, jeez, fine, you definitely don’t know each other and you’re definitely not father and son. That’s all a huge coincidence, I surely believe that.

Now I can’t wait to see Orange saying: “it’s not like I’m looking out for you, baka!” to Thomas, then I can close everything and disappear forever 😂

_______________________________

“He's against Nazis”

[Thomas]: ... Alright, he can stay. [Patton]: Hm? [Roman]: -incredulous laughter- Ah, wait, seriously? [Thomas]: Sounds like he's against Nazis, so... Why not hear him out? You know? [Virgil]: That... cannot be where the bar is!

I just love this part too much and it cracks me up everything. Remember, kids: you can be a snek, but if you’re against nazis, then everything is okay. I can’t wait for the moment Thomas will try to send Remus and Orange away, only for them to reply that, hey, they’re against Nazis too, so they deserve to stay! And Thomas will let them stay.

And then we will reach the lowest bar in the world and everything will be perfect.

_______________________________

“Social engagement”

[Deceit]: Well, the bar for skipping an important opportunity should be higher than a... social engagement. [Patton]: Come on, a wedding is more than just a social engagement! [Virgil]: He knows that.

Of course he knows that, he bears the name of a god who presides over weddings. Which yes, it’s hilarious and I love it.

_______________________________

Same area of expertise

[Patton]: What is this wacky talk? I- You don't mean any of this. I'm your morality, I wouldn't be here if you did! [Thomas]: Right, right. Yeah, you're right. I- I don't mean that. [Patton]: And Roman, I thought you fought for honor! Why are you pushing Thomas to be dishonest?

Deceit knows what Thomas truly wants and it’s to go to the wedding. However, two sentences from Patton were enough to make him understand that:

Patton is the one who is truly in charge

Patton’s ideas are strong enough to influence Thomas

Thomas could change his mind because of them

Roman desperately wants to go to the wedding

Roman could change his mind because of Patton

And so, Deceit intervenes and makes Patton aware of something: sure his presence means Thomas still thinks about his morals… but he’s not the only one here:

[Deceit]: Do you know who else is here? Me! So perhaps, Thomas... isn't so innocent. [Patton]: Well... Nobody's perfect... Except for Thomas! He loves his friends! [Deceit]: You can defend him all you like... But you can't change the facts. Is Thomas an innocent little lamb? Let's let them be the judge of that.

And with this, Deceit:

proved he’s Thomas’ Side and not a random guy. He is a Side, just like all of them and he won’t go anywhere.

brought up the problem that will be solved in POF - i.e. Patton’s view of Thomas as a perfect, innocent boy.

moved the entire problem to a higher, moral level. This isn’t just a “choosing wedding or callback” problem anymore: this is Deceit’s way to prove Thomas’ fallibility and humanity.

And he wants to prove it to Patton. And if Thomas is confused about all of this, Patton is not:

[Thomas]: Um, I'm a little confused as to what this is all about. [Patton]: Basically, Deceit is trying to prove that you care more about yourself than your friends, but don't worry, kiddo, we'll show him.

Again: the supposedly stupid guy immediately understood what Deceit was trying to prove and followed him in his reasoning. Because, in case it wasn’t clear enough, these two work in the same area of expertise.

And if you need another confirmation that these two are a lot more similar than it seems:

[Deceit]: He's clearly manipulating the witness into doing what he thinks is best. Wait a minute. Who was it that was called a Scooby-Doo villain for doing the exact same thing? Oh, yeah! It was me... disguised as Patton.

So not only Deceit confirmed Patton isn’t perfect, but they are similar enough, he can do what Patton does and there would be no difference.

These two work in the same field and they’ve been hinting it here all the time, before clearly stating it in POF.

_______________________________

Multiple arms

I forgot about this detail and thought that the multiple arms thing Remus brought up was a metaphor. Well… maybe it wasn’t. Maybe the noodle snek really has six arms.

This goddamn man, he really has one arm for each Side. And he probably uses them to smack the Sides in the head/stop them from doing something stupid. I love him.

_______________________________

An attempt at maturity

[Thomas]: And that's what you stand for. Truth. [Patton]: But I don't know what's true at this point. I just know what I want to be true. I want to believe you're an honest person... but... Deceit's right! He's here... and that means something. [Thomas]: Are you serious? I- I've been following your lead this whole time. I'm in the dark here, Patton, and I need something to light my way! [Patton]: I'm sorry... b-but... I don't know the way. [Thomas]: I don't want to be a bad person. [Patton]: Okay, then I'll do whatever I can to make sure you're not.

Do you know what is this? This is the moment that led to POF.

Patton was getting Deceit’s message. He was starting to understand Thomas isn’t perfect. He even admitted he didn’t know the answer.

But Thomas was too scared, too afraid of being seen as a bad person. And so, Patton had a choice: to side with Deceit, accept that his morals have been too extreme and guide Thomas by giving him a more mature, multifaceted understanding… or doing POF:

[Patton]: Like I told you before, sometimes... I don't know the way. But... When I told you that, you were so scared. I couldn't bear it. So I said to myself... "Alright, Patton. Thomas needs you. You're responsible for his morality. You can never not have an answer for him." And then I promised you I'd keep fighting. Unfortunately... I learned the hard way that... giving too simple of answers to complicated questions... can do more harm than good.

_______________________________

Virgil’s interrogation

[Deceit]: -chuckles- Very well. As Thomas' anxiety, do you have any relevant information about his norepinephrine levels in regards to these two conflicting commitments?

I’m pretty sure someone already said something about this hormone back when the episode came out, but I don’t remember - also, I found this very interesting paragraph from Wikipedia I would like to share:

“The general function of norepinephrine is to mobilize the brain and body for action. Norepinephrine release is lowest during sleep, rises during wakefulness, and reaches much higher levels during situations of stress or danger, in the so-called fight-or-flight response. In the brain, norepinephrine increases arousal and alertness, promotes vigilance, enhances formation and retrieval of memory, and focuses attention; it also increases restlessness and anxiety.”

As you can see, Virgil’s two main functions are both involved in this hormone. And norepinephrine has a spike during stressful situations - like, you know, choosing between a callback or a wedding.

But the mention of this particular hormone implies something else. Something very important, that will connect with the second part of this conversation.

Deceit mentioned an incredibly specific hormone and, by doing that, he proved how well he knows Virgil. He doesn’t know just his roles, but even the effects he has on a chemical level. It’s a bit like the difference between knowing your colleague from their job and knowing how many miles they can run on the weekends. It implies a much closer relationship.

Also, since he asked how high the levels of norepinephrine are, that means he knows Virgil is stressed. He knows this situation makes him more anxious and, with his questions, he wants to prove to Virgil (and to everyone else) that he is anxious because he knows what Thomas wants: to skip the wedding and go to the callback.

[Virgil]: I think it's ridiculous that anyone is entertaining any of this. Guys, he's a liar. You literally know him as Deceit. [Deceit]: Glass houses, Virgil. You yourself said that you are not a beacon of truth.

The famous “You literally know him as Deceit” line is a clear reply to Deceit’s question about norepinephrine. It’s Virgil’s way to say that yes, he knows him extremely well too. The others “know him as Deceit”, but he knows Deceit for who he is.

And, okay, now that’s probably me looking too much into things again, but the way Deceit replied by saying that he’s not always right and shaking his finger… it’s almost like a warning. A (maybe unconscious) way to say to Virgil to not reveal more, because he’s not always right.

And to further prove his point, he proceeds with a subtle threat:

[Deceit]: Oh, so you've never been reluctant to share anything with the group, then? [Virgil]: Don't. [Deceit]: What? I just meant your name. [Virgil]: Don't! [Deceit]: Maybe that's why it's so easy for you to recognize me for what I am. Like I said before... it takes a liar to know a liar.

And with that, Deceit proved to Virgil that:

He knows what he’s hiding from the group (i.e. that he was one of the Others)

He knows him extremely well, because he knows Virgil doesn’t want to talk about it yet

He has the upper hand, because if Virgil says something, he can immediately drop his secret and screw Virgil’s position in Thomas’ eyes.

_______________________________

An unexpected help

So, after threatening his son and showing how much of a villain Deceit can be, what does Patton do?

He pushes him to show his soft side, by forcing him to reveal his agenda.

[Patton]: You... always seem to have some... bigger plan. Some... agenda. [Deceit]: Doesn't everyone? [Patton]: Well, not everyone is so secretive... about theirs. [Deceit]: Everything has a purpose, and sometimes fulfilling your purpose requires keeping things close to the chest. [Patton]: Well, you're under oath, which I think means you gotta tell us. Why the courtroom scenario? Why pick a setting where... uh, the truth comes to hang out?

As soon as Patton had the chance to ask him a question, he immediately ignored the wedding/callback thing and went straight to the point. And it makes sense, because the point of their conversation is a bit more important than a single choice.

Patton wants to know what this Side is trying to do. And when Deceit brought the conversation to a higher level by talking about society, Patton brought him back to the main topic: Thomas. What does Deceit want to do with Thomas?

And by forcing him to be a little more honest, Patton helped him. He helped Deceit to drop some of his convoluted plans, to clearly say he cares about Thomas.

[Patton]: Okay... What does any of this have to do with Thomas? [Deceit]: I don't want Thomas to be disadvantaged in a world where you can die for not following the laws made in the name of a lie.

That’s why I always say Patton is incredibly mature. He’s working against Deceit, they are literally against each other in this courtroom scenario… and yet, he helped him. He gave him a chance to show his soft side, to prove he’s not a bad guy. And to tell how useful he can be! A bit like “an inner coach that acts with the intention of self-preservation”, as Patton said in CLBG.

_______________________________

Always and forever on Thomas' side

[Deceit]: Look, the point is, Thomas is an unconscious egoist and this dilemma is actually between something that serves him versus something else that serves him. Between looking and feeling like a good friend and a dream come true. If Thomas wanted to be seen as a good friend more than he wanted the role of a lifetime, well then I'm all for that. But I just don't buy it.

This part is extremely interesting, because Deceit said both choices are something Thomas wants. From one side, there’s personal gratification (Thomas wanting to be a good friend), from the other there’s personal fulfillment (Thomas doing something he loves). They are both selfish wants, in a way. So, if all Deceit cared about were selfish wants, he would have no problem with them. This whole courtroom scenario wouldn’t take place at all.

Be he has a problem because he wants what Thomas wants. And since Thomas is denying his want to do a different thing… well, that required Deceit’s intervention. As he said: if Thomas wanted to go to the wedding, he would’ve accepted that choice. He doesn’t care about Lee’s feelings, just like he didn’t care about Joan’s feelings in CLBG. The only feelings that matter for Deceit are Thomas’.

And only when Thomas finally admits his want, Deceit is satisfied.

[Thomas]: Fine! I want to go to the callback! I was planning on playing Word Crush on my phone during the wedding ceremony to keep my mind off the fact that I'm single. I don't want to go! I'm afraid to go. And on top of that, a dream come true fell into my lap scheduled on the same day. Anyone would want to go to the callback! So, yeah. I tried to force myself to forget about the wedding, and now I want to lie to my friends, so they don't hate me for not supporting them. I'm a liar. I'm a liar.

Deceit put on a whole courtroom, just to force Thomas to be more honest. This alone would be enough to prove he’s not just the embodiment of lies, but I suppose the correlation “snek = liar” was stronger than 200 proofs, so Roman did the wrong thing and made a choice no one wanted.

_______________________________

A mature Side

[Roman]: It's my sworn duty to help Thomas achieve his hopes and dreams. But Thomas wouldn't dream of attaining his hopes through deceitful means. [Deceit]: But that's not true! [Virgil]: And you're a beacon of truth? [Deceit]: Oh, did I say that? I missed the part where I said that.

Please let’s focus on Deceit’s words because they are very, very interesting.

1) Deceit openly admitted his means weren’t deceitful. Just like when he asked Thomas, during the courtroom if he was “the snake come to trick you into sinning, or have you had your mind made up since the moment you received the news about the callback?”. Deceit had no intention of deceiving Thomas, from the first moment he appeared.

2) Deceit is a very mature Side. I talked about it during my POF analysis part 3, when he openly recognized his own mistakes. Here he openly admits what Thomas is having trouble admitting: that he’s not perfect. He never said he was. He never pretended to carry the truth. Even if he’s 100% right here, he still admits he’s flawed. He and Patton are truly the most mature Sides here.

_______________________________

Caring and criminal

During the episode, he said that “fulfilling your purpose requires keeping things close to the chest”. And where did he keep his logo? On his chest. Even better, on his heart. What else does he have to do, to prove how deeply he loves and cares about Thomas? This man is the most caring Side.

[Deceit]: I'm not going anywhere. And there are smarter ways to get people to do what you want, anyway.

Uh, so “smarter ways to get people to do what you want” means “let’s release Remus”?

You know what? That really was a smarter way. With one decision, he introduced Remus, proved he’s harmless and even useful, showed Thomas that ignoring his needs leads to an increment of his intrusive thoughts and confirmed that he was right and Thomas should’ve listened to him.

This man is a criminal and I love him.

_______________________________

Why Logan can’t work in the moral area

[Logan]: It's still difficult to believe that my participation was as restricted as it was. It was Deceit's doing, I'm sure. I would have been a more than worthy foil. Unlike him, I'm skeptical about whether a society could function without some sort of system of laws by which all of its citizens abide.

Oh Logan, you huge nerd. I love you, but this is why you don’t work in Deceit’s and Patton’s same area of expertise.

Deceit’s whole monologue about society wasn’t practical, but moral. He didn’t say “we should surrender to anarchy”, nor presented a point about why rules are bad: he said society is a concept and we all collectively choose to believe this concept was true. He talked about how scary the concept of society is. And he clearly saw it on a moral level, not a practical one.

And yes, we can add this to the list of reasons why Logan was pushed in the back: just imagine if, instead of talking with Patton, the other moral side, who was incredibly quick to get his points and ask him about his agenda, we got Logan: a neutral Side, more interested to practical things than metaphorical/moral ones. Deceit would’ve spent most of the time rephrasing everything and the conversation would’ve been just about this choice, rather than a multilayered conversation about selfishness, selflessness, Thomas’ fallibility, and choices in general.

Deceit needed Patton as interlocutor and he needed to remove the cold, straight logic from a conversation that was mostly about morals and emotions: two areas Logan is not an expert about - as he will admit in POF.

[Logan]: Well, determining what feels right or wrong for you isn't really my area of expertise.

_______________________________

Truly taking care aka the wedding from Lee and Mary Lee’s perspective

[Patton]: Well, here's the thing, kiddo. People hurt all the time. By going to the wedding, you're making sure that two of your friends aren't hurt by the absence of someone they really care about.

Okay, time to put the most cynical part of me here.

Patton’s words are cute and nice and everything… but seriously. Come on.

Just imagine being the bride or the groom: you spent the previous days, weeks and months organizing for this event. Locations, entertainment, ceremony and everything. Then the day comes and you want to be 200% sure everything goes as smoothly as planned. You have people coming to ask you about this or that detail. You have to be sure your dress/make-up is okay, your best men/bridesmaids are okay, the photograph is here, the meal is good, the place is ready, the staff is preparared.

And, when it’s time, you have the ceremony, the people to greet, photos to take, meals, events, dances and so on.

Do you really, REALLY think that Lee and Mary Lee would be so devastated by Thomas’ absence? I’ve never been married, but I really doubt that one missing guest (and not a best man or a bridesmaid or another important guest: just a guest) would have made them feel so devastated. Weddings are huge, stressful events, a ton of things happen and the newlyweds barely have time to eat, let alone feel devastated by a missing guest.

And I would like to repeat that: a guest. Thomas didn’t play any important role. He wasn’t supposed to be Lee’s best man or anything else. He was just a guest.

Do you know what it would’ve happened, if Thomas skipped the wedding? That Lee and Mary Lee would’ve thought “Oh, Thomas didn’t come”, to completely forget about it two seconds later, because someone else would’ve called them to do something else.

And no, going anyway isn’t a question of empathy, but of naiveness - and egoism too. Thomas himself proved it in POF, when he showed his frustration, because he wanted a little more than a “hello”. He literally wanted them to throw him a party, just for coming! Who would ever think the newlyweds would give a damn about them, on such a huge day? No one, except for a very egoistical, naive person: egoistical enough to think they are the only one who matters, naive enough to think the bride and the groom have time to do a party for them. That’s childish, immature and very selfish, not empathetic.

Do you want to know what Character!Thomas could’ve done, if he wanted to show some empathy? Skip the wedding.

Think about it. What would’ve been better? Thomas moping around and not enjoying himself, thus ruining the party for everyone else… or Thomas not appearing at all and letting everyone enjoy the party? Which choice is the most empathetic? Call me a bad person, but I think the second one would’ve been a better way to care about other people’s feelings.

Also because Lee and Mary Lee noticed it:

[Lee]: Really? 'Cause you're sitting alone at the reception.

And, at least to me, that’s way worse than not attending it at all. Thomas was such a buzz kill, he ruined the party for the bridal couple too. That’s literally the most selfish, bad thing he could’ve done. And only because he didn’t want to listen to the snake boy.

This event deserved to leave strong consequences. And POF is proof of how huge the impact was on Thomas’ life and how deeply things will change from now on.

( Support me on Ko-fi )

_______________________________

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#sanders sides #sanders sides theory #rewatch #analysis #thomas sanders #janus sanders #patton sanders #roman sanders #remus sanders #logan sanders #virgil sanders #ts thomas #ts janus #ts patton #ts logan #ts roman #ts virgil #ts remus #selfishness vs selflessness

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st7arlights-side · 11 days

Text

Theorizing Pt 1: repression

UP AHEAD: so much rambling about Orange. written very late at night and not the most coherent, sorry. (also, all uses of Thomas are referring to c!Thomas)

okay everyone talks about the dark sides being their opposites, opposing colors, colors on opposite ends of the wheel, but wanna know another term for it? complementary colors. I think the idea of "totally opposing, entirely contrasting, nothing alike" is not really accurate to the lore that we have been given? It's clear that it's important that all sides are accepted, and that there is no "solely good" or "solely bad" trait. Everything has complexities and different aspects to it, and the sides are no different.

I've never been particularly fond of the idea of wrath/anger/cruelty being orange because it seems like a scapegoat? I am more in favor of it representing regret (as most appearances of it are present in scenes or conversations with regret present) [forgot where i saw the theory first :sob:] and passion (impulsive acts based in emotions, a contrast to Logan's character while simultaneously rounding him out and forcing him and thomas to accept the parts that aren't all logical) [theory from @/dillydallydove] as these have more dimension and seem to fill out the gaps in the sides a bit more, especially considering the general theme going with remus, janus, and virgil. These are aspects that Thomas represses, and he knows them by names that aren't really accurate to their full purposes. He knows Janus as deceit, while he is more accurately described as self-preservation. He knows Remus as intrusive thoughts, when he is more accurately described as his repressed creativity. He knows Virgil as Anxiety (which is fairly accurate, though it still minimizes his functions) though he might be more accurately described as caution? fear? an aspect of self preservation? Regardless, perhaps orange could be known as wrath or anger because that's what he manifests as, but that doesn't mean that this is accurate to who he is as an aspect of Thomas. Remus is intrusive thoughts because that is the only way he can get recognized, the only way he breaks through the suppression. Janus is known as deceit because he has to manipulate the other sides to get them to prioritize Thomas's self-interest (as well as his personal responsibility to protect Thomas from what he can't handle at the moment; deceiving himself, sure, but at it's core, preserving his presently fragile mental state).

What emotion, what passion, does thomas repress the most? he's clearly open to expressing love and joy and, more recently, stress and anxiety, even some hints of sadness showing. but what has he been repressing the most? his anger! his frustration! his (and his sides') sense of inadequacy!! Orange is being seen in these contexts because that is what he isn't allowing himself (and the sides) to express as themselves.

Sanders Sides' whole thing is accepting the different parts of yourself, with underlying themes of c!thomas's upbringing causing him to repress, deny, or otherwise have an unhealthy relationship with "bad" aspects of himself (which, boy do i have some ideas for possible explorations of OCD in this, especially with the prevalence of intrusive thoughts- and the ways Thomas and the other sides change their language around Remus to prevent him from "getting ideas"-). Orange could be treated as a character foil to Logan, or Orange could be like Janus, but instead of protecting c!T from things he can't handle, Orange is the result of that suppression. Like how remus formed from thomas (patton) forbidding Roman from having "bad" ideas, orange could be formed from thomas (logan) pushing down "bad" feelings, feelings of passion that don't directly help other people.

Of course, this brings me to how Janus (a "gatekeeper" of sorts for Thomas) would interact with orange. this is reaching more into prediction territory. I suspect that Janus wants orange to emerge, as prolonged repression is harming Thomas (which i'm pretty sure he alluded to at least once, though i'm blanking on when). (also, an aside, is it not concerning that during the christmas special, Janus, c!T's self-preservation, was increasingly inebriated?? ooh and the occasional gags about Logan drinking wine too-) Notice how Janus has been watching Logan? this plus the general willingness to exclude Logan (further pushing his frustration and feelings of inadequacy) makes me suspect that he (as per usual) knows more than the rest.

I... don't really have a conclusion. I think Orange isn't an embodiment of aggression, moreso a result of repression? I guess? And I'm concerned about... yeah everyone involved, but especially Logan and Janus.

#sanders sides #tss #sasi #sanders sides theory #tss theory #sasi theory #orange side theory #logan sanders #janus sanders #implied alcohol abuse #maybe. briefly #oh also #ocd mention #theorizing

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runningonadhd · 1 year

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Alright, this has been bugging me for a while because I see no one talking about it. It’s about how Patton reacts to Logan talking about how Thomas’ creativity split in two in DWIT

(I’m so sorry the picture looks the way it does)

HE DIDN’T KNOW

At least, he didn’t know the creativity split

As a professional theorist, this leads me down a whole new rabbit hole. I can believe that, being that in Thomas’ eyes and morals seeing creativity as a good force, Roman could’ve easily gotten away with pretending to be all-encompassing creativity, however not good enough to fool logic (hence, why Logan is aware of the split). However I’ve found a bit of a plot hole. It seemed like Patton was aware that Remus existed EX: “I’m sorry, but I can not condone THAT KIND OF THINKING” so if he supposedly didn’t know about the split until DWIT, what did he think Remus was?

Thomas is religious, as it’s clearly stated in the episode, so maybe Patton thought Remus was just sin all along? Or for some reason there was another creativity made just for the purpose of defeating the “real” creativity? There are a million ways Patton could’ve seen Remus before. Personally, for angst, I’d like to hc that he never knew Remus existed, but that’s already been shot down. But if he had to ask what creativity split into, he probably wasn’t present during the split and maybe even didn’t know it happened.

Wow. If only I wrote school essays as passionately as I write Sanders Sides theories.

Anyway, I’m off to live with the opossums, do with this what you will!

#janus sanders #sanders sides #virgil sanders #logan sanders #remus sanders #roman sanders #thomas sanders #dark sides #deceit sanders #patton sanders #creativity sanders #sanders sides theory

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