ah, you know what my first thought was when i got to this scene?

when logan started off as the side who tried to approach problems as fairly and open-mindedly as possible, and encouraged thomas to not jump to conclusions or assume ill intent.

but he gets ignored, underestimated and sidelined so often that he himself started giving in to the cognitive distortions.

You cant tell me this wasn’t Janus’s way of learning how the real Roman would respond to being accused of not being Roman.

If Janus is planning on impersonating Roman, then knowing how Roman would genuinely react to this would help Janus act his way out of any accusations.

I would like to suggest aromantic Patton

He doesn’t know what Thomas meant when he said “I just felt something for someone else that I had never felt before” in Moving On pt 2, and during the Five Years Later video, he didn’t seem very enthusiastic about Nico

I propose that while Patton deals with a lot of the feelings, he doesn’t necessarily enjoy or understand them

Virgil's Gift: An Analysis on It's Symbolism and Possible Foreshadowing

Obvious spoilers for Thomas' newest Sander Asides video: What Makes the Perfect Gift? Go watch it if you haven't.

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So the yearly Sander Sides Christmas special dropped hours ago. (Yippee!) And there's a surprisingly large amount to be said for it to be a 13 minute long Christmas special. In fact, I'd say it's the most story focused episode since Can Plushies Improve Our Health?, and that was an ad for the Sander Sides plushies. There's just so much to talk about this episode. There's the implications of Janus and Remus being invited to play Secret Santa; the mystery to what Thomas' message was with his gift to Nico; the underlying tension between all the sides that reminds us of the angst we've already seen and how things still aren't completely alright and that the worst is yet to come; and, most notable of all, the question as to WHY THE HELL REMUS WOULD WANT TO F*CK ANDREW JACKSON??

But the most interesting thing to me is Virgil's gift to Logan, his reaction, and how it reflects Logan's current situation.

Virgil gives Logan a newspaper, claiming that it seems like something he would like. Logan however, does not read newspapers and is very disappointed by the gift. Remus and Janus make some comments on how unthoughtful Virgil's gift appears. But at the end of the episode, Logan finds out that the newspaper actually has a secret message and is the first puzzle of an entire scavenger hunt, which excites him a lot.

This is by far my favorite part of the episode. Not only is it heartwarming, it also symbolizes how Logan has been treated as a whole, and may even foreshadow future events in the series.

When Virgil gives Logan the newspaper, Logan is very confused, and asks him why he would give him a newspaper. Virgil replies, "Cuz' you're the Mr. Smarty Pants of the group. You like reading and all that." Logan is still confused though. Yes, he likes to read, but that doesn't mean he will read anything. Roman chimes in with Virgil, reinforcing that they think Logan will like it. Logan says, "Is that all I am to you? The reading guy?..." And Virgil replies, "I don't know man, give it a read! I'm sure it has something you like."

This entire interaction represents how Logan has been ignored and misunderstood throughout the entire series. Virgil gives Logan a newspaper, something he doesn't actually want, because he assumes he will like it since he likes to read in general. He made an assumption on Logan's personality based off things he already knew, something Thomas and all of the other sides have been doing since the beginning. Throughout the entire series, Logan is considered the smart one of the group who always provides information and exposition, and little else is expected of him. In ACCEPTING ANXIETY part one, Thomas assumes that Logan knew what his problem was because he provides, "the explanatory exposition in [the Sander Sides] videos because all the other characters are too zany or relatable." And in Selfishness v. Selflessness, Logan is benched after providing information that supports both Patton and Janus' sides because they assume he has nothing else to offer. Time and time again Logan is reduced to his function and the traits that go along with it, such as liking to read. And why these things about him are true, he is far more complex that who they see him as. But, as Virgil didn't seem to care to get him something he would actually like, they don't seem to care to learn more about Logan...

They do care though. And that's shown through the twist at the end. When Logan discovers that it's a puzzle, Virgil jokes, "And you thought I would just get you a newspaper. Tsk. What do you take me for?" Though it appeared Virgil didn't put much consideration into the gift, and though Logan believed Virgil didn't, he did, because he truly cares about Logan. And throughout the entire series, though they don't always listen to him, Thomas and the sides show that they care about Logan. Patton is always nice to him, Roman, while the most harsh to him, does secretly respect him, and Thomas, as shown in the song, "Incomplete," is not only aware that Logan has feelings and is more than just logic, he wants Logan to accept it as well. He also seems empathetic when Logan is disappointed with his gift. This represents how Logan's insecurities get in the way of him being fully accepted. Logan is convinced that Thomas and the sides will only ever see him as his function, and that they do not care about his other traits. This is one of the reasons he represses his emotions, and is shown by how quickly Logan believes Virgil got him a newspaper simply because he likes to read. Though Logan may not realize it, Thomas and the sides love and accept him fully, and Logan needs to see that.

However, it seems that someone doesn't want him to see that...

And that's where the foreshadowing comes into play.

After the conversation Virgil gives Logan his gift, Janus chimes in, saying, "Wow Logan, looks like Virgil put a lot of thought into that one!" He emphasizes how little consideration Virgil's gift seemed to have. In doing this, he reinforces the idea to Logan that Virgil didn't care enough to give him a gift he would like, even though that's not actually true. And if he his doing this intentionally, he may also be reinforcing the idea that they don't care about him.

And Remus soon after joins in, proposing, "Kinda makes you wanna scream, huh?" This is obviously a callback to Logan's outburst in Working THROUGH Intrusive Thoughts. In that episode, Remus showed great excitement towards his outburst, implying that Remus wanted him to get upset. And now again, he suggests that Logan should get angry about it. It is very clear that Remus is trying to make Logan lash out on purpose.

Based off this, I believe that in future episodes, we will see the dark sides, or Remus at least, try to manipulate Logan into believing that Thomas and the sides don't care about him. In doing this, they'll persuade him into joining their side. Perhaps they'll make him a puppet for the Orange Side, or if Logan is the Orange Side, they will make him embrace it. Of course their plan won't work out though. Because even if the do get Logan to join them for a little, the other sides will show that they care. And perhaps if they do, Logan will finally be able to see that, and he will finally be able to accept himself.

it always been a little weird to me that the twins are named roman and remus. one of the founding twins of rome.. and rome??? that isnt exactly matching.

(and ik the canon reason is just that remus wasnt being thought of when they named roman but shh. we're having fun here.)

but i think i figured it out. just.. imagine being patton. king, one of the four people you know, just.. split into two people. and its kind of your fault. and one- one scares you. one is bitey and agressive and ranty and bad. but the other- the other is almost king! maybe its not perfect but- maybe its just king with the bad parts taken out.

and so he looks at the one that doesnt scare him, and he calls him by kings name; roman. meanwhile, janus whisks away the second twin - and he already knows king is gone. the name feels fitting when he whispers it; "remus", a part of rome that defined it.

Theorizing Pt 1: repression

UP AHEAD: so much rambling about Orange. written very late at night and not the most coherent, sorry. (also, all uses of Thomas are referring to c!Thomas)

okay everyone talks about the dark sides being their opposites, opposing colors, colors on opposite ends of the wheel, but wanna know another term for it? complementary colors. I think the idea of "totally opposing, entirely contrasting, nothing alike" is not really accurate to the lore that we have been given? It's clear that it's important that all sides are accepted, and that there is no "solely good" or "solely bad" trait. Everything has complexities and different aspects to it, and the sides are no different.

I've never been particularly fond of the idea of wrath/anger/cruelty being orange because it seems like a scapegoat? I am more in favor of it representing regret (as most appearances of it are present in scenes or conversations with regret present) [forgot where i saw the theory first :sob:] and passion (impulsive acts based in emotions, a contrast to Logan's character while simultaneously rounding him out and forcing him and thomas to accept the parts that aren't all logical) [theory from @/dillydallydove] as these have more dimension and seem to fill out the gaps in the sides a bit more, especially considering the general theme going with remus, janus, and virgil. These are aspects that Thomas represses, and he knows them by names that aren't really accurate to their full purposes. He knows Janus as deceit, while he is more accurately described as self-preservation. He knows Remus as intrusive thoughts, when he is more accurately described as his repressed creativity. He knows Virgil as Anxiety (which is fairly accurate, though it still minimizes his functions) though he might be more accurately described as caution? fear? an aspect of self preservation? Regardless, perhaps orange could be known as wrath or anger because that's what he manifests as, but that doesn't mean that this is accurate to who he is as an aspect of Thomas. Remus is intrusive thoughts because that is the only way he can get recognized, the only way he breaks through the suppression. Janus is known as deceit because he has to manipulate the other sides to get them to prioritize Thomas's self-interest (as well as his personal responsibility to protect Thomas from what he can't handle at the moment; deceiving himself, sure, but at it's core, preserving his presently fragile mental state).

What emotion, what passion, does thomas repress the most? he's clearly open to expressing love and joy and, more recently, stress and anxiety, even some hints of sadness showing. but what has he been repressing the most? his anger! his frustration! his (and his sides') sense of inadequacy!! Orange is being seen in these contexts because that is what he isn't allowing himself (and the sides) to express as themselves.

Sanders Sides' whole thing is accepting the different parts of yourself, with underlying themes of c!thomas's upbringing causing him to repress, deny, or otherwise have an unhealthy relationship with "bad" aspects of himself (which, boy do i have some ideas for possible explorations of OCD in this, especially with the prevalence of intrusive thoughts- and the ways Thomas and the other sides change their language around Remus to prevent him from "getting ideas"-). Orange could be treated as a character foil to Logan, or Orange could be like Janus, but instead of protecting c!T from things he can't handle, Orange is the result of that suppression. Like how remus formed from thomas (patton) forbidding Roman from having "bad" ideas, orange could be formed from thomas (logan) pushing down "bad" feelings, feelings of passion that don't directly help other people.

Of course, this brings me to how Janus (a "gatekeeper" of sorts for Thomas) would interact with orange. this is reaching more into prediction territory. I suspect that Janus wants orange to emerge, as prolonged repression is harming Thomas (which i'm pretty sure he alluded to at least once, though i'm blanking on when). (also, an aside, is it not concerning that during the christmas special, Janus, c!T's self-preservation, was increasingly inebriated?? ooh and the occasional gags about Logan drinking wine too-) Notice how Janus has been watching Logan? this plus the general willingness to exclude Logan (further pushing his frustration and feelings of inadequacy) makes me suspect that he (as per usual) knows more than the rest.

I... don't really have a conclusion. I think Orange isn't an embodiment of aggression, moreso a result of repression? I guess? And I'm concerned about... yeah everyone involved, but especially Logan and Janus.

i think other people have talked about this before but i strongly believe that janus sent remus out on thomas to punish roman for choosing the wedding.

MY NEW SIDE/ORANGE SIDE THEORY

I hear a lot of people saying that this new side has something to do with anger or being angry, but actually i don't think that's true- close though.

throughout the series Logan has been super insecure about having feelings, and insists that he's purely logical and doesn't have them. Anger just happens to be the emotion that's easiest for him to crack- if you were trying to get him to emote somewhat, prove that he isn't purely logical, that's just the easiest gateway because it's the emotion he cracks under the most.

And we see this new unknown side- or hints of him- in the episode about lee and mary lee's wedding, when patton is insecure about his status as morality and what to DO about the situation, or why Thomas is upset.

ROMAN has also been shown to feel inadequate and actually have a very bruised ego, and to become easily self conscious and worried about being the best or most loved side. He struggles to take criticism and has breakdowns over failing or being unpopular, second best, etc

I think, similar to how virgil is anxiety, this new side is connected to insecurity, inadequacy, falling short of who you're "supposed" to be, etc, and that remus and janus are using Logan's feelings about not wanting to feel (and his anger issues) to force Thomas to confront these issues.

it's not about anger really, it's just about every way that each side (and Thomas) feels they're falling short.

and Logan is a perfect gateway for bringing this all to the front (pun intended haha plural moment)

I think it's kinda funny how Logan is hiding the fact that he has emotions from the other characters because like. it's not really a secret? Logan thinks they don't know but I'm pretty sure he's the only one. I mean even c!Thomas has called him out on it several times, I'm pretty sure they all just think it's a technicality at this point. it's the most one sided secret ever.

Sanders sides theory: Logan's eyes turning orange when he got angry was a misdirection and orange is actually guilt/shame/embarrasment

Allow me to explain:

Thomas posted a picture on his insta story from a ted talk and said he was "doing research" and fanders found out what it was about.

The ted talk was about how vulnerability and weakness are not the same, we are taught that being open about how you feel is something to be embarrassed about and that guilt is natural but shame is not.

What is the one consistent emotion thomas has felt talking to nico other than love or joy? What feeling do you think Roman gets whenever patton points out his poor thinking? Why didnt thomas just talk to lee and mary lee about the wedding? What's the main symptom of constant low self esteem (something Logan said thomas struggles with all the time)? Why do the sides struggle to admit their flaws and talk about their feelings? How does thomas feel when he asks himself if he's truly a good person? Embarrassed, Humiliated, guilty, ashamed.

Now how do you feel when you are ashamed or guilty? Do you feel like the whole world is watching you, almost like a giant pair of glowing eyes are watching your back? Hell, even in the great gatsby the eyes on a billboard are meant to represent the eyes of god watching down on everyone.

Thomas himself has said hes a religious man and its clear that shame he felt for remus's thoughts permanently seperated the parts of his imagination.

But how could this possibly tie into logan screaming at remus? If the orange side isn't wrath why did he even show up when Logan got angry? Well hear me out, it wasn't the anger that made him show up.

It was logan's shame at the anger that did.

Logan has consistently shown he prides himself on being calm ans collected compared to everyone else, he is logic, he is reasonable, and he is meant to be taken seriously.

So if you were Logan and you found yourself being so upset that you have an out of control out burst from something as petty as not being given any attention, as if you were some crying child on an airplane who needed to be coddled. ESPECIALLY from remus, the side who literally thrives from attention and can only be beaten by being ignored and absolutely no one would ever take seriously, how would you feel? I reckon you'd feel pretty ashamed of yourself.

Heck, what is the common ground between intrusive thoughts, anxiety and self preservation? shame.

Virgil is afraid of the humiliation you could experience from any number of horrifying social faux pas you could do and remus's intrusive thoughts are a huge cause of thomas's guilt.

Now this is all great but if Orange really is shame then what greater function could he serve to thomas? All the sides have good in them, even remus, logan even says that at one point.

I believe orange would be there to show that Thomas's action have consequences, if there was no guilt or shame imagine how well Patton's morality would work.

Would thomas even want to apologize anymore? Would he even care to stop somebody like remus? You can teach some one as many morals as you want but if you don't have a reason to have them then they won't work.

Heck, what was the episode we got the secret hello message? The episode all about feeling bad when you don't put others first!

I imagine the season finale will finally confront thomas's guilt and low self image and all the sides will finally come clean about how awful they truly feel causing orange to show up, then when orange shows up we can properly explore two very important things.

1. When properly and fairly holding yourself accountable ends and hating yourself begins.

2. What really happened when remus and roman became distinct identities (i'm not saying king creativity is cannon, i'm just saying it would be an exploration of what ever happened when remus was sent away.).

Hell, if the spit was a real thing that really happened and orange is guilt than its fairly reasonable to assume HE caused the split, not patton or Logan like most people think.

Remember the old hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil theory?! Well you know what pose people usually strike when they're embarrassed or humiliated, they cover their eyes in shame and wince at the thought of seeing their own cringey bullshit.

It's literally perfect.

I could always be wrong though of course, but i do think this is a relatively sound theory with some evidence on it.

As much as i love the idea of wrath/greed orange, guilt orange would be such an interesting character, but more importantly, imagine the fucking angsty uwu soft boiness we will get.

But thats just a theory, a sanders sides theory! Annd cut.

Fan theory: Patton and Janus used to be one, before they split like Remus and Roman

Disclaimer: don’t interpret too much into this, it’s just a vent, but you’re more than welcome to either support or disprove my theory

Even tho I am a big supporter of the "janus and virgil used to be one before they split like Roman and remus" theory, I offer a new theory of "Janus and Patton used to be one before they split" but before you judge, hear me out

So janus and patton are supposed to be polar opposites with Patton representing Morality and Janus Deceit (and supposedly dislike each other)

Sound a bit like Roman and Remus if you ask me, but bear with me I have some actual arguments as well;

Now janus is also half snake (or at least got snake like features: a few scales, one slit eye and a lisp causing him to “sssssss”) , and I personally took it away as a reference to his snake like behavior (backhanded compliments etc)

But while Janus was having his redemption ark (in SvS Redux), Patton basically turned into a frog, you know the cool animated fight scene. Now, you will realize that Snakes and Frogs are both amphibious creatures

Which therefore leaves the room for interpretation that Patton and Janus may not be so different from each other

This also plays along that Patton and Janus where “build” (?) / “created” at the same time, causing them to both having those amphibious features…

Now I ask you, what seems more logical, Deceit and Morality both coming into existence at the same exact time, or a different side came to existence featuring both their character traits, which then later on, split into Deceit and Morality

Or as a third option, and probably the likeliest, I’m just overthinking this whole situation, bending over backwards to somehow make this theory

thinking about how Logan cracking under pressure would be the final straw in Thomas's sanity. not saying that Thomas would become completely unhinged when Logan cracks. but it's gonna be pretty hard to function with faulty or unreliable logic. Logan can't duck out like Virgil did, so he's gonna be forced to continue operating as Thomas's logic under the same circumstances.

and in this situation, Thomas is going to be even more easily swayed by his emotions. we already saw what happened when Logan temporarily left the group (but was still active as Thomas's logic) in Moving On pt 2. they all went absolute batshit; Virgil was having a panic attack, Roman was encouraging Thomas to act on impulse and make irrational decisions, and Patton was also somewhat panicking, refusing to take sides or handle the situation.

it's gonna be this but ten times worse when Logan finally loses it, especially since Roman is also not in a very good position right now. Patton and Virgil aren't cooperating like they used to either, so chaos is definitely going to break out.

and I'm thinking about how all of this is going to affect Thomas's relationship with Nico. we haven't seen much of their relationship and while it looks healthy enough so far, we already know that Thomas isn't exactly ready for a committed relationship. his frustration with Nico not responding to his text in WTIT says everything.

of course, he isn't going to intentionally hurt Nico but there's a possibility that his emotional turmoil and repression is eventually going to affect their relationship badly. i don't blame Patton for being cautious about this new relationship, he might have to deal with another heartbreak again if Thomas isn't careful.

((To your “say yes to heaven” post)) I’m not even an anxicet fan and yet you somehow managed to perfectly describe them??? It’s like how both “should’ve been me” or “goodbye my danish sweetheart” by mitski fit Janus’ outlook based on your headcannon/theory

Anyways sorry for ranting it’s just your post has me now considering becoming a Virgil/Janus shipper so congrats👏👏👏👏

Post in reference (see tags)

I can go on and on about this

Thomas has stated that virgil does not like janus. Bro clearly hates him. And Virgil was scared or remus.

But neither janus or remus seem like they actually dislike virgil. Remus even seemed openly affectionate to virgil

Look at this shit >>

Virgil starts saying how remus really unsettled him:

Virgil starts explaining why:

Virgi saying he sees that remus isnt so scary:

Bro literally went from 😕 to 🥺 to 😆

Those r the expressions of someone learning that someone they like isnt scared of them anymore.

And for janus virgil is clearly hostile towards him. But when they interact janus seems sarcastic and snarky but not necessarily hostile.

So i really think Janus saw that virgil wasnt doing well with the “dark sides”. They couldnt give him what he needed to grow and improve. So he chased virgil away to the light sides. Whatever his did to accomplish this was effective enough in making virgil pissed at him but resulted in that hostility being onesided.

Virgil leaving the dark sides was janus’ intention. He knew that virgil being with the others was better for his state of mind. They could offer him comfort, coping mechanisms, and support that the dark sides just couldnt give him.

What if the thing Virgil’s mad at Janus for is just imitating Patton in CLBG?

Janus as Patton says “it’s me! Aren’t we friends?” but doesn’t clarify that he’s Patton, and Virgil seems to already know (or at least suspect) that he’s really Janus

So what if it’s Janus saying to Virgil as Janus “aren’t we friends”

Virgil says “I’m not so sure we are.” and that doesn’t seem like something he would say if he thought he was talking to Patton, but it’s also not as aggressive as he usually is when talking to Janus

Maybe that was Virgil’s breaking point in his relationship with Janus

Guys, I have to be honest: I've never really liked the, "Logan being the Orange Side" theory. But you know what I do like?

Logan being manipulated by the Orange Side.

guys. guys. guys. do you guys know the headcanon that janus gets sick during winter because hes cold-blooded as a snake? well, kids usually have better behavior during the winter because their parents will scare them with the concept of santa not giving them gifts. better behavior, like promising not to lie. oh my goddd.