"I've been thinking recently about the first ever trans space I was ever actually a part of, Bigender.net. My experience was primarily with these forums in ~2009, but I came back to peek in later years, and am trying to regain access now. There's a lot of bigender cultural things there that would probably never be known about or archived somewhere easily accessible unless someone talked about what they saw there, and I wanted to share some things.

+ A Lot of people used two or more names that they switch up, use in different contexts, and that often align with specific genders. Names are essentially changed like pronouns are for many people.

+ Most bigender people seemed to experience some kind of fluidity or flux of gender, and it was rarer for people to feel like 100% both at all times. This seems to be more often where people label themselves androgynes.

+ The language of "en femme" and "en homme" was used to describe both how one was presenting (similar to the modern boymoding/girlmoding) and to how one felt their gender on a specific day, which is what makes it different from girlmode/boymode. It wasn't just about presentation regardless of gender, but presentation as related to gender.

+ Plurality became so common over the years as a framework of bigender expression that a whole subforum for plurality emerged on these forums. Lots of plural bigender folks would experience having a "girl side" and a "boy side" in a dual system.

+ There were just as many bigender folks who experienced a neutral/other/middle gender experience besides just being male/female. It really wasn't limited to 2 genders, even if at the time it was very male/female bigender focused."

Aster, Bigender Culture

Bigender means people have both a feminine side and a masculine side. In the past, most bigendered individuals were lumped together under the category of cross-dressers. However, some people live their whole lives cross-dressed; others are referred to as part-time cross-dressers. Perhaps if gender oppression didn't exist, some of those part-timers would enjoy the freedom to cross-dress all the time. But bigendered people want to be able to express both facets of who they are.

— Transgender Warriors: A Movement Whose Time Has Come by Leslie Feinberg (1996)

a lot of people who are weird about multi gender people obviously haven’t seen dykes and drag queens and trans people from the 70s-90s. it’s nothing new. queer people have been fucking with gender since the dawn of time. peace and love on earth from a genderfucked queer weirdo.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'VE BEEN TRYING TO SAY THIS FOR SO LONG

trans people have ALWAYS had weird genders! we've ALWAYS accepted bigender and multigender and polygender people! we've ALWAYS loved welcomed and accepted freaks and rebels and punks and weirdos!!! we've ALWAYS been like this! get used to it!

thank you so much for your message. you get it. thank you for letting me know folks out there DO get it. let the gender rebels speak!

BiTrans Blues by M. S. Montgomery

from Anything That Moves issue 10, 1996

Some bigender history

SPEAKING OF GENDER by Francis I would like to explore the concept of being "bi-gendered" as an FTM. My own definition of bi-gendered is someone who is comfortable with feeling both "male" and ''female," either coincidentally or at separate times. This is not necessarily the same as feeling "masculine" or "feminine," since there are masculine women who identify only as women, and feminine men who identify only as men. This definition excludes sexual orientation, as a separate though related issue. As we have taught the gender workers, there are many orientations, and they may change, so there are no set combinations. I know bi-gendered FTMs who feel more comfortable living as men than as women, and take hormones, or also have upper surgery, but still acknowledge and enjoy occasionally feeling like a woman. There are a few I've read about (and would like to meet!) who live part-time as each gender, holding part-time jobs as each. There are others like myself who occasionally crossdress fully as a man and feel like one, while living and feeling the rest of the time as a woman. Personally, I have never felt like a "masculine woman," but there has always been a "male" side of me. Sometimes I feel like a mixture of both genders, but when my feelings are more separate (and they often are) there is a definite difference in my basic energy vibration. Most of the time, my clothes and personal gender perception are in harmony, but I have occasionally found myself feeling like a "drag queen'' walking down the street in a dress, or feeling decidedly female after doing a complete cross (tm) dress transformation with mustache. This is usually more obvious to myself than to others, as I become more aware of how I project and how I feel inside. If you have read Carlos Castaneda's or Lynn Andrews' books, one could draw the conclusion that the concept of gender is personally constructed, and can be consciously changed if one has the ability and interest to do so. The Native Americans call this "shape shifting," and the Tibetans have a similar concept. Both cultures also entertain the possibility of changing to non-human (animal, bird) forms as well, and stories abound of shape shifters being perceived by others in those forms. This practice is based on thought and energy projections, but they can affect what others feel and see. This is an interesting concept, and may explain why some transsexuals who aren't yet cross-living cause confusion in others: they are projecting male vibrations while in female form. I think that being bi-gendered is a viable choice, perhaps a rough equivalent of the male-to-female "she-males," or "complete" crossdressers who switch into this other side of themselves, either for short times or to cross-live. To paraphrase what one FTM said in a meeting, we are the shamans in this age, building a bridge between the genders, and making our own new boxes and categories. Gender is surely the newest societal frontier, and we are the pioneers.

// FTM Newsletter #17 (1991) from Digital Transgender Archive

I Am Woman, I Am Man

I am woman, I am man. I have beauty inside of me, I have strength. There was always beauty inside of me, but it was buried, locked, denied. I have always had strength, but it scared me, worried me, seemed dangerous.

I am woman, I am man. Outside I was only a man. My woman was my deepest secret, locked in a hidden magic garden. Mostly I couldn't get there except in my dreams.

I am woman, I am man. Why was my man so scary? so fraught, desperate, devoid? Perpetual vigil lest strength do Caliban-like harm. At best tight-lipped tolerance from the world- earned by perpetual service. But always the risk of a mistake, with the consequences unthinkable. Punishing myself to get right with the world.

I am woman, I am man. Therapist tried to help me cure myself of my womanhood. That would be a living death with tube feeding from Hollywood and a meaningless job and a prickly pear, to go round at five o' clock in the morning. But where is joy? Where is life? Where is love?

I am woman, I am man. At last I found my hidden garden. I found it in a canyon in Colorado; I found it in music; I found it in my womanhood; I found it in my dear ones. I'm learning to be in my secret garden whenever I want- which is most always.

I am woman, I am man. Now my beauty shines out. Now my strength is safe, and good, and joyous. I stand tall, and proud, and happy. I run into the woods. I revel in the beauty of nature, of art, of people. I glory in the beauty of my friends. Now my love for them can pour out. Now I can accept their love.

(Robin Esch, Journal of Gender Studies Vol XIV #2 Summer-Fall 1992)

Falling down a rabbit hole of multigender history btw

sure bi/pan discourse is stupid but I sure have seen a major improvement in how ppl define pansexuality in relation to to bisexuality when compared to the early days of pansexuality as a result of said discourse. Like it seems most people have reached a “let ppl identify how they want” consensus, while also no longer being weirdly transphobic and biphobic every time someone asks the difference between bi/pan/poly/omni/etc.

The Chasm of Time and a family divided

So, we're pretty seriously dissociated from most of our emotions these days. But there are certain themes in stories that get us every time, and there's this one that hits us so intensely that it feels like the most cathartic thing we can ever find, and it's weird.

Any movie or book or comic, any story, in which one family member makes a great sacrifice for another (typically a parent for a child, or a sibling for their other sibling) just cuts us to the bone. And then, if there's any sort of closure after a long time, it wrecks us.

And when we experience these feelings, it's as if we've experienced them before. As if these stories are reminding us of something we've been through, including the closure.

But, in our outworld history, we haven't. We've never experienced this.

But, if we think about our history of reacting to these stories, before we came out as trans (and plural) the scenes of closure gave us intense feelings of yearning instead of familiarity. Like it was something we desperately needed.

It wasn't until after we'd come out (in 2015) that those closure scenes started to spark recognition and joy, and it's slowly spreading through the system the realization for why that is.

You see, we were born plural. We had a divided brain, the left side enby, the right girl.

Eh and Jenifer are our eldest system members, and the only two to carry memories of being in the crib as an infant.

But we were assigned male at birth, and raised with the expectation that we were a boy. Which we weren't.

Eh and the other dragons could adapt to that easier.

Jenifer and the girls could not. So, as we grew older and were indoctrinated into the cult of masculinity, Jenifer retreated to the deepest part of her headspace and didn't begin to poke her head out until Middle School, when our egg first began to crack.

But still, that was in 1987, in the dark ages of being trans in the U.S. and coming out as a trans girl at 13 was NOT possible for us. Also, as we researched it through our later teens, we encountered all sorts of other things that drove us further into the closet, which meant that Jenifer and her daughters had to communicate with the outside world through our comics and other fiction. They almost never fronted, and usually only within dreams when they did.

Something else fascinating is that we were very right handed for most of this time. But, then we came out as a girl in 2015, we started reflexively using our left hand more, even though we weren't very good at it.

There's a lot more story to our transition that we're going to skip for expediency.

The point is that we had the reunion in 2015. And nearly 40 years of being separated by a chasm of dissociation from your twin & their children is a FUCKING LONG TIME. It's literally a family tragedy. All for the sake of masking & keeping the system safe from transphobia.

We're still not healed from it. But we're doing better.

Anyway, every time a group of us are taken by surprise by these intense emotions & cannot connect them to our outworld life, where most of our memories are, some of us end up asking, "Is this exotrauma from one of our walk-ins?"

But it's not. It's just us. It's inworld history.

(It is possible that some of our walk-ins relate through their own past experiences as well, since they stay in our system once they are here. Who knows what they have left behind in order to shelter with us.)

Sharon Ann Stuart, a Missouri native, is a bigendered person. Sharon, a founding director of the International Conference on Transgender Law and Employment Policy (ICTLEP) is a specialist in transgender issues for military personnel and one of several principal drafters of the International Bill of Gender Rights (see Appendix A). "As a bigendered person I present both masculine and feminine identities alternately with equal comfort. I value and honor both gender roles and spend roughly equal time in each. It is analogous to being bilingual. To me, gender expression is very similar to language. For example, some thoughts and feelings are best expressed in one language as opposed to another. If you learn English (masculine) as your native language and French (feminine) as a second language, you will likely speak French with an accent. Indeed, those who are transgendered typically retain elements of their native gender identity. Strictly speaking, no one can be 'all man' or 'all woman.' As a young child, I acquired the ability to express femininity as well as masculinity. I regard this as a gift from God."

— Transgender Warriors: A Movement Whose Time Has Come by Leslie Feinberg (1996)

butch is a term that has such a long and intense history, i can't really fault people for not knowing a lot about it. it's fine if you don't have the time to read into how it's been used by various parts of the queer community, even the butch lesbian community alone given how much there is to look into, how much nuance there is to it, and what kinds of people use it.

for those who don't have that time or can't find a good place to start , just know that when folks (terfs) push to say "only lesbians can be butch," they then turn around and tell their lesbian communities "transmasculine people, FTMs, trans men, bi/multigender, genderqueer and nonbinary lesbians aren't lesbians." it is part of a long daisy chain of terfs trying to cause infighting and ultimately just remove trans people from the gay & lesbian communities.

it will never be factually incorrect to say that butch is a term that's important to the lesbian community. it's been a big part of the lesbian community for decades. but the people who are telling you it's important to lesbians and that's why it needs to be lesbian exclusive are always leaving out one massive detail, that the butch lesbian community has always been densely populated by genderqueer, nonbinary, multigender, FTM, transmasculine, transsexual & other trans lesbians. if you attempt to speak on the importance of the term, but forcefully exclude half the people who have historically used it, you aren't telling the truth.

Came across a blog that posited itself as space for Butches, and claimed to be about sharing Butch history. And then it said "men DNI"

Lol. Lmao even

Ah yes, a space for Butches and Butch history, but not for boydykes, mandykes, genderfluid, or multigender Butches.

hiii!!! so uh, this is sorta about 'contradicting' (?) identities in general, but i only recently found out about, like, lesboys and gaygirls and all of that, but what is it exactly? like how does it work? or is that weird to ask? i'm trying figuring myself out but a lot of stuff i've seen doesn't exactly... explain it (or explain it well), and while i guess i do get why, it's just kinda hard to understand it myself for my own identity

also, probably a question you get a lot in a hating way, but isn't the definition of lesbian nonman loving nonman? so then how does lesboy work? like is it for people with more complicated gender identites, like fluctuating genders and bigender? just genuinly confused, my apologies...

sorry for not getting to this sooner- been busier lately and didn't have the time to collect everything I needed to respond!

About what it exactly means to be a lesboy or a gaygirl ('turigirl' is the more common term, 'turi' meaning turian, another word for gay attraction to men. so I'll be referring to it as that from now on), there isn't exactly....one right way to call yourself such. it really depends on the person, but I can give you a basic definition and a list of common reasons someone may call themselves such

im gonna put a read more because this ended up being super long so sorry

lesboy is a term for any lesbian who may have a connection to manhood and/or masculinity. turigirl is just the opposite of that, a gay person (mlm/nblm) who may have a connection to womanhood and/or femininity. common reasons I've seen are:

being multigender or genderfluid

being cusper/in between trans and cis gnc (in between trans man and cis gnc woman, in between trans woman and cis gnc man)

being a system who uses lesboy/turigirl as a collective identity or when identities blur together

a person who uses man/boy or woman/girl as a means of masculine or feminine gender expression but not actually identifying as such

being a trans man/ftm or a trans woman/mtf who still identifies as lesbian or gay for personal reasons

those are far from all the reasons, everyone has their own unique experiences, but the gist is these people may have some sort of connection to manhood/womanhood while still having a queer attraction. personally, I'm multigender, genderfluid, and transmasc. lesboy I find is a nice label to express being both my bigender self and being a lesbian, as it forces people to acknowledge both without separating the two. it's cute and makes me feel validated!

as for "nonman attracted to nonmen" definition of lesbian......it has its issues. it's received criticism all around from all sorts of lesbians in the community. this definition is very new - it emerged only in the recent years, and someone on twitter had date searched it and found it didn't even really exist before 2019. and having that as the one and only official definition that every lesbian has to abide by, when lesbian is a centuries old word with so much history behind it, is a bit ignorant. people who are multiple genders or ftm or bi being lesbian is not even remotely new, going back decades upon decades, and it never stopped existing too. It's a bit weird to have a whole new definition that doesn't include all sorts of lesbians that have been here for so long and just tell them they're not welcomed anymore, right?

that's not even close to the only issue there is with it. it's been disliked for centering lack of attraction to men, or defining lesbian in relation to men, rather than who we're actually attracted to. putting nonbinary people in a new binary of either being "men or nonmen," which not all feel comfortable putting themselves into. especially when considering a definition of gay being "nonwomen attracted to nonwomen," man-woman bigender people are simultaneously excluded from being both lesbian or gay. It inherently overlaps with mspec identity ("attraction to nonmen, which is more than one gender" and "any orientation that involves attraction to more than one gender" kinda obviously overlap), despite people insisting that a lesbian can never be mspec. people have found multiple loopholes in it, (which I can elaborate on if someone wants me to, for the sake of trying to make this as short as possible), and lastly, and term "nonman" (and nonwoman) were found to have existed before to describe the degendering of black people in society. this isn't the only source I've seen for this, but sadly I can't exactly find it (or find it without going back to that hellsite called twitter and I'm not doing that to myself)

oh and as the link points out, defining lesbian by these words also ends up excluding a lot of two-spirit people from ever identifying as lesbian, myself included. which is also really racist. I don't know how you're gonna end up excluding a whole cultural gender that's common for indigenous americans to describe themselves with and try to prove it somehow isn't racist, to be honest

and lastly, some surveys/polls have shown that the definition isn't the most widely accepted by lesbians as people make it out to be. there's this simple poll that someone posted asking how lesbians felt about the definition that received 1,529 responses, and 61.1% of voters said they disliked it. comments gave lots of reasons I've stated already. there was another survey put out that received 211 responses that for any lesbian who had a genderqueer or unique relationship with gender, and one of the questions asking opinions on the "nonmen loving nonmen" as a definition. the average among the group was slightly negative (average 2.838), and reported that the group who tended to feel the most positively about it didn't consider themselves to be trans, with the other positive leaning group considered themselves to be somewhat cis. the group that felt the most negatively sometimes considered themselves to be trans. and of the multigender participants, the average opinion was 2.255 (more negative than the overall average). When concluding, the original poster stated, "When divided by gender, the only groups to feel positive about this definition were "not trans" and "somewhat cis" participants. Multigender participants felt especially negative about this definition"

all of this shows that this definition isn't nearly the best for everyone who considers themselves a lesbian. I know it's been a way to include nonbinary people who are lesbian in it's definition, but I think it really misunderstands why nonbinary people are included in lesbianism in the first place, and just assumes that all nonbinary people aren't men and fails to recognize that multigender/genderfluid people are nonbinary too. and it's not like lesbian has to only have on definition- it can definitely have multiple and depend on each person's experience with it. if someone personally defines them being lesbian around being a nonman attracted to nonmen, and takes pride in not being attracted to men, that's totally fine. what becomes a problem is forcing all lesbians to define themselves like this and make it the standard, or else they're "not real lesbians." it is ahistorical and ignorant to require this or else you'll strip them of their lesbian status, and is really at the end of the day, lesbophobic. especially as a requirement that primarily exists in online spaces. im sure the lesbian who is not at all connected to these circles doesn't particularly care about strict requirements or whether someone is a "nonman" or not. in conclusion, it is not the best nor most accepted definition of lesbian, and deciding which lesbians are valid or not based solely on that definition is pretty exclusionary and ends up policing a lot of lesbians, myself included

Discourse about lesbianism pops up on this blog every so often, and I'm sick of hearing the same argument over and over again, so! If you disagree with my opinions about lesbianism, you should read some of these posts so I don't have to repeat myself arguing with you.

Some basic explanations

How can men be lesbians?

How can someone be an mspec lesbian?

History of bi lesbians

Some more history, and other basic explanations

Lesbian trans man interviews

Problems with the men/non men binary

Gender venn diagram

What do genderqueer lesbians think about NMLNM?

Where does the line get drawn between men and non men?

Attraction isn't a binary between "attracted to men" and "not attracted to men"

How do multigender men fit into this?

Nonbinary isn't a third gender

This definition centers men

Exclusion of multigender men

Lesbian as a gender identity

Definitions don't have to be rigid

What do you want a definition for?

Definitions are not static

There is no one true definition of lesbian

Lesbianism is multifaceted

Inclusive definitions of lesbianism

Queer taxonomy

Do hippos count as dragons?

How to define a color

Trans man in a lesbian bar: Do I belong here? (bonus: https://medium.com/@florence.ashley/the-irreducibility-of-belonging-transmasculinity-and-lesbian-bars-91ac73a37ee4)

Mspec and male lesbians aren't harmful to other lesbians

Lesbianism is diverse, and that's okay

It's their identity, not yours

We're not forcing you to be attracted to men

Deconstructing an exclusionist carrd

"Men can't be lesbians" + TERFism

We're not "ruining" the word lesbian

Fluid sexualities and non-fluid sexualities can coexist

Questions for those skeptical about bi lesbians/bi gays