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mageofmindfr · 1 year

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COULD WE GET A MAGE OF TIME CLASSPECTING????? XXXO

Specifically if they went of the deep end…. went rogue…. went evil…. tried to take another player down….

Aw geez ok so I'm assuming this ask is for an OC? Unless you're confessing to attempted murder in my askbox, in which case, please don't I already overthink life as is (and also, please don't attempt murder, but that's kinda obvious).

So, because this is for a character and not a person, I'm dividing this one into two parts; the practical one where I talk Mage of Time as if I'm analyzing a person, and the part where I go into evil oc territory. I'll probably divide with a reblog, we'll see how long this post gets and decide there.

SO! Mage of Time... As per usual, starting on class before aspect.

Mages are... well, in my brain I call us "the anxiety class", but there's good odds it'll be just me. Mages understand their aspect in its entirety, the good, the bad, the nightmare inducing... all of it. It makes us clever, or just smart, because we understand the inner mechanisms of our aspect. You observe and understand and form answers regarding that aspect and learn all that you can about it until you suddenly wish you had a bit less of it in who you are. It won't form your personality; we're not heirs or pages, we just know what we're talking about. Which can occasionally bite you back; as a Mage of Mind, I constantly think about choices I should make, and the consequences thereof. Slightly maddening when you build yourself to panicking over what to eat for lunch, right? (Then again, being a person who "fully understands choice and consequence" is a bit different to someone who "fully understands time and possibility", though of all the aspects I think those two have the most similar in terms of Mages).

A Mage can get overwhelmed by their aspect, a lot more so than the Seer who can choose what they want to learn, instead of having experienced their aspect. No one wants to learn about the terrifying facts of the world, the things they'll never be able to change, but Mages get pulled into their aspect in a way that allows (or perhaps even forces) them to acknowledge their aspect and learn all that exists within it. And aspects are the essence of the world, the things to keep the universe running, so having all the knowledge on any of them feels like it'd be... too much, almost, for any one person

So, what about the aspect? What is Time all about?

Well, to be honest, Time and Space are both really difficult to explain; they're the core of reality, how do you explain what makes time? I'll do my best to attempt it, but the three Time players we meet have all very different attitudes towards their aspect, and in general (and I generally refuse to listen to the extended zodiac, which decided all Sagittarius people are overly bouncy and indecisive, which... I mean, it doesn't quite follow not only troll culture and what indigos from actual comic Homestuck are like but also is probably only accurate to one indigo in Hiveswap and it's the one that's Eridan but Worse. I don't listen to what they have to say).

Time, as far as I understood, implores its players to live in the here and now, for all the time travelling they do. They see possibilities, things they want to change and ways to change those things, and are usually intensely focused people (yes, I'm including Dave "derails every conversation he's part of into convoluted metaphors" Strider in this sentiment). Time players are goal-oriented and are great planners; either ahead of time, or on the spot. They try for clever but end up just drawing inspiration from the world around them; opposing the out-the-box thinkers of Space with confirmed knowledge to make sure the thing would happen they way they want it to. Sometimes, that knowledge comes from research, or past experiences. A fully realized Time player would probably use their knowledge from other timelines, either by meeting alternate selves or by visiting those alternate timelines to see for themselves. They're also fiercely independent people- not in that they won't ask for or accept offered help, especially in a game like Sburb or Sgrub that relies on multiplayer co-ops. If they know that they can't solve a puzzle on their own, so be it, they can ask the resident Seer for help. But if they know a failed attempt or two won't hurt, they refuse to just be given an answer; let them wear themselves down, in that case. They'd get the answer on their own, or go looking for it elsewhere, but they don't want help with the first attempt.

That all means the Mage of Time might not be all that prone to overthinking. They have the potential to look at the options laid before them, and make a calculated choice. They can see the world unravel before their eyes, and dissect it to little timelines and possibilities and choices they never made, and feel like their timeline is the one they're bound to, and that's that. However, they're not immune to the endlessness of Mage knowledge, and can accidentally fall down the rabbit hole of possible timelines. Maybe this isn't the right one for them, and they wish they could have changed that one thing, taken or passed up on any one thing to make something- their life, the life of a loved one, a small insignificant exchange to get a friend in someone who doesn't even know them in their current timeline- change. That's a dangerous road to go down, and unfortunately, the game isn't real (and if it is, for the love of any god that may or may not exist, someone send me a download link). They can't god tier and go back to change this one thing, and this Mage, who thinks about "could have"s and "should have"s and whatnot, they'll only get hurt down that path. To quote a pretty overplayed Disney song from what is apparently a decade ago, the past is in the past. Let it go. Be a new you, look forward for the future and see what you can change, what you can do, right now.

All that said, I think we can do a short moment to talk Evil Mage of Time. The rambling is surprisingly short this time around; maybe the few weeks I took off while my internet was down made me rusty (apologies for that, by the way, life decided to kick my butt and I kept going "oh I'll just answer my ask later" but then I got a new ask the other day and for once I've got stable internet connection so here we are, right?). I'm putting a ~keep reading~ function here for this bonus bit, then.

So, I honestly can't really see a Mage of Time being downright evil at all- that sounds... exhausting. Planning out everything for when your coplayers try to take you down? You'll exhaust yourself thinking up all the possible paths your opposition can take and end up driving yourself up the wall with madness.

However, if a Mage of Time made a mistake in an alternate timeline? If this other player betrayed them, or cost them the game? This is payback. Not evil coming out of nowhere, this is revenge for something that, as far as the other player would be concerned, never happened. It's unwarranted, but maybe becoming the villain of a session is the only way to prevent the other timeline's tragedy from occurring. Maybe it isn't, and yet the fury from the other timeline seeped through so thoroughly that you can't overlook it- they wronged you. This isn't on you, but on them. Good luck explaining that to other players without sounding entirely crazy, though.

... And for the record I still think being evil would be too tiring to be worth it. Not to dictate the emotions of an evil possibly-oc, but the planning it'd take to not doom the timeline, get yourself killed, or do anything else that's bad (say, the thing you're trying to prevent by stopping this other player) and also complete your goal at the same time? Too much effort, if you ask me. Which you technically didn't, but also you did go to my askbox so... take that as you will. Sorry this was late and also I hope you like it? ^^"

#mage of time #homestuck #homestuck classpect #classpect #classpect analysis #time aspect #mages are the anxiety class thats it thats the post

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elenaditgoia · 9 months

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Fair point on the Gamzee/Hidan characterization! Hmm, boy...there are just so many characters in both Homestuck and Naruto, it's a little tough to narrow it down, especially when they could be Human, Troll, Cherub, Sprite, OR Carapacian! (Or even......Hussie himself! 😳)

I still have a few guesses about who Sasuke, Orochimaru and Kabuto could be in your AU though, if it's fine to share of course.

So, the character in question should have some significance to Karkat, can relate to him on a fundamental level, and they're somebody he still has an emotional connection towards. At least that's what I'm assuming given that the characters in both medias have some commonality to each other.

So my next best guess is that Sasuke would either be Jack Noir or Sollux Captor! After all, Karkat took Noir's betrayal hard and the two share the same blood color & Sollux's someone he has a love-hate relationship with and he's his, "BEST FUCKING FRIEND *EVER*".

For Orochimaru and Kabuto, my guess would be Doc Scratch and Aranea Serket, respectively. Oro and Doc both have this creepy air of sophistication around them, a color palette unique to them and their followers, and the two have amassed many young proteges to use for their benefit. Aranea and Kabuto both have a nerdy, disarming look at first glance that causes others underestimate their true potential. Both try to gain power and use it to control everyone else in an attempt to live up to another person, or be seen as someone worth appreciation, Aranea towards Mindfang, Kabuto towards Orochimaru. And the two are both so, so, SO overwhelmingly smug, it's almost sickening!

(This is so long, I'm very sorry to both you and your followers! Guess I'd be Kankri, the way I go on for paragraphs lol 😂)

It's true that homestuck and Naruto both have a bazillion characters, which makes the parallel especially fun since there are several ways to go about it! You're approaching it from the standpoint of inter-character relationships, which is very interesting to think about. My approach was more to find similarities in the characters' personalities, motifs, and arcs, therefore the characters I picked don't mirror the original ones' relationships very well.

BUT IF... IF I wanted to take that route. WELL. You're right that Naruto and Sasuke would have to be the core relationship from which everything else should follow. One could almost say. They're the arguable axis around which the entire epic revolves! Those who are homestuck-savvy enough will already know what I mean. But I'll elaborate. We have Sasuke, who after years of abuse by the hand of a close relative falls under the manipulation of a pseudo-immortal entity (which would make Doctor Scratch Orochimaru, like you said!) who's interested in his powers and drives him even further away from his community, until he eventually leaves. Naruto, on the other hand, never accepts Sasuke's departure. He sees it as his responsibility, and eventually goes to look for him with the intention of bringing him back, despite being discouraged by the people close to him, even when it seems hopeless... I'm JUST saying, had I followed this approach, Naruto would've been Terezi. (Two libras! And my beloved favourites... 🥺)

DO YOU SEE IT.... I said ENOUGH! Maybe I should just draw that second picture.

#Doc Scratch wasn't going to be Orochimaru in my mind's eye though. I'd made him a different character.#Sorry 4 taking a while to reply!!

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applestorms · 1 year

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alright,

i am well in need of a proper homestuck reread by this point, it's certainly been long enough since i went through the comic as a whole instead of just skipping around to different acts and conversations. to anyone following me rn who would like to avoid possible post spam about this, i'll be tagging everything with "#astronaut reread" so feel free to filter that. dunno if it'll be that spam-y though tbh, i'm trying to be more careful and take my time going through each page and image to really Pay Attention this time round to make sense of all of the theories/analysis i've been reading lately, but that may also make my liveblogging posts longer so. idk we'll see how this goes

initial thoughts: i've always been drawn to the emptiness of early homestuck, the whole aspect of the kids shitting around in their rooms doing basically nothing of real importance (ignoring hs's love of callbacks) feels very true to the experience of being a teenager in the last few decades. it's quite slow story-wise, of course, but it genuinely does set up a lot of the story later on (john's posters all foreshadowing/inspiring later plot points, etc.) and the vibe is just. man idk, i've seen people criticize act 6 for being slow in that nothing really happens since all the characters are just Waiting, but reading through the very beginning again that almost feels more true to the core of homestuck, or at least where it started. and i like it, sometimes it's nice to just slow down, even though i get the frustration w/ that later in the story after the plot has so much more baggage. but more reflection on that later.

john is an interesting character on a meta level in how he represents the most basic entity in homestuck: the first kid, upon which all other kids evolve off of, but what's more interesting about that fact to me is how his original Home plays into that character. maybe i'm biased by nostalgia, but (A1:82) is such an interesting page, it's like the first point where the comic hints at taking itself more seriously by marking just how empty the space surrounding john is, houses all copies of one another and far apart along the streets. not to mention the wind running through the windchime, perhaps another instance of foreshadowing/inspiration? hussie mentions the idea of vriska being tied to the image of the sun that page ends on in the commentary notes, troll gods not yet conceived of but looking down and watching all the same. honestly all i can think of is a section from the start of ch2 of the zhuangzi:

Master Dapple said, “My, isn’t that a good question you’ve asked, Ziyou! Just now I lost myself. Do you know? You’ve heard the pipes of people, but not the pipes of earth. Or if you’ve heard the pipes of earth, you haven’t heard the pipes of Heaven.”

“May I ask what you mean?”

“The Big Lump belches breath and it’s called wind. If only it wouldn’t start! When it starts, the ten thousand holes begin to hiss. Don’t you hear the shsh-shsh? In the mountain vales there are great trees a hundred spans around with knots like noses, like mouths, like ears, like sockets, like rings, like mortars, like ditches, like gullies. Gurgling, humming, hooting, whistling, shouting, shrieking, moaning, gnashing! The leaders sing ‘Eeeeeeh!’ The followers sing ‘Ooooooh!’ In a light breeze it’s a little chorus, but in a gusty wind it’s a huge orchestra. And when the violent winds are over, the ten thousand holes are empty. Haven’t you witnessed the brouhaha?”

Ziyou said, “So the pipes of earth are those holes, and the pipes of people are bamboo flutes. May I ask about the pipes of Heaven?”

Master Dapple said, “Blowing the ten thousand differences, making each be itself and all choose themselves—who provokes it? Does Heaven turn? Does earth stay still? Do the sun and moon vie for position? Who is in charge here? Who pulls the strings? Who sits with nothing to do, gives it a push and sets it in motion? Do you think it’s locked in motion and can’t be stopped? Or do you think it’s spinning out of control and can’t slow itself down? Do the clouds make the rain? Or does the rain make the clouds? Who rumbles all this out? Who sits there with nothing to do and takes perverse delight in egging it on? The wind rises in the north—now west, now east, now dilly-dallying up above. Who huffs and puffs it? Who sits with nothing to do and blows it? May I ask the cause?”

(translation by norden & ivanhoe)

perhaps that's fitting with all the talk of transformation & flexibility/adaptation in that chapter.

you really can't get away from the names "homestuck" and "s(u)burb" with this beginning to the comic. john, as the quintessential homestuck kid, trapped in his house in the empty suburbs, stuck not because of any physical boundaries/walls, but perhaps because of a lack of them. massive roads and sprawling suburbs that make it impossible to get anywhere on foot is a pretty classic image of modern america, so john's desire for breath, for movement, makes sense in that regard. homestuck has always been most appealing to me in how it doesn't shy away from reality, as messy as that engagement often is, and this beginning feels like it gets at some of that emotional core that homestuck started with. it's immediately followed by a joke about pissing/shitting in the mailbox too. classic.

#astronaut reread

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tomatograter · 3 years

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Do you think Dirk saying that he doesn't like to label himself as gay means he has internalized homophobia? Or does he really just don't like to put labels on himself? I've seen ppl saying it's homophobia but there's ppl in real life that don't feel comfortable with labels so I'm a bit confused honestly, cus we are talking about Dirk and he's... Dirk after all

Easy answer: Dirk is Gay.

Prolonged answer: I think it's kinda weird how some fandom discussion around "Dirk dodging the label in One pesterlog" has largely spiraled way outside of its original context to be talked about in a vacuum, especially when that context is crucial to understanding what is actually being said, AKA — it belongs to a deeply awkward conversation between Dirk and Roxy. One of Many they are implied to have had about the subject of Roxy's sustained, unwelcome, and oft drunken advances towards Dirk (& his splinters).

I'm going to reproduce it plus another bit of text down below, for the sake of comparison.

(To prevent the trickster text from looking like absolute shit, I have altered the background. Read the original here, if you're nasty: https://www.homestuck.com/story/5754 )

Now that we've been reacquainted with how and where that sentiment is expressed, let's try to break down what Dirk is doing here.

He is not receptive to Roxy's early advances, and spends most of the 'intro' for this conversation (not pictured) ignoring when Roxy flirts with him, until she gets upset at how 'boring' he is being right now.

Dirk is the one compelled to apologize.

He proceeds to shut the scenario down as an unwanted probability, eliciting further guilt-babbling from Roxy over how Dirk never wants to play along with the perfect traditional family fantasy, until she finally blows up and says it's because he's gay.

"I mean, yeah, that's what I thought."

Dirk, rather than saying I Am Not Gay, since he looooooves changing a conversational subject, claims that "Gay" is not entirely historically appropriate for this situation, given the non-negligible passage of time and the wildly dystopic circumstances* they find themselves in.

Dirk reassures Roxy he does still care about her.

Dirk is absolutely terrified of a similarly inclined (and intoxicated) Roxy up close. This is the most exclamations he's ever used.

Now, *These circumstances? The loss of 99% of the human race, including their society, customs, culture, and prejudices. (ALLEGEDLY.) It's important to remember that from Dirk and Roxy's side of the timetable, troll culture has been pushed as "the norm" for actual fucking centuries. HIC tried to recreate the caste system by artificially coloring human blood, leading to the death of billions. Faygo came out of the water tap, not water. Troll slang was incorporated into the English language. Humans ceased to organically reproduce. They were actively Discouraged from reproducing, since that's not something HIC could have total genetic control over; rendering traditional marriage and the concept of the nuclear family pointless.

You could also argue that same-gender relationships are not uncommon in Alternia, making "gay" altogether unnecessary by proxy, and that's true! But my point is this one: any union (or at least our society's holy concept of it) between straightie humans would be by definition undesirable under HIC's rule, too. She is the church, the president and the governing body. The population is only as good as they are assets for her to do whatever she wants with, including mass murder.

But wait! While that tracks… Roxy clearly still holds onto very 'conservative' definitions of romance for most of Homestuck. We see this multiple times. Dirk, as proved in conversations with Jake, uses 'gay' as an ironic pejorative. Suddenly it's not Historically Inaccurate anymore, Jake's interests are just gay.

Does this mean the context above is basically worthless, since they don't seem to have internalized it? No.

What must be kept in mind is this: Dirk and Roxy's only "active" link to de facto humanity is our society as it was in the early 2010's. Those glimpses they get by talking with jane and jake. They have all that dystopic context, yes, but the reality that seems the most "unfucked" to them for a grand majority of their lives are the halcyon years before the Condesce's rise to power: back when weed was illegal, BlogSpot was popular, movies sucked, MTV was still a hip channel, and gay generally meant something real bad. The wave of homophobia as a punchline or fear mongering tactic was at THE HEIGHTS. Marriage equality was a hot debate topic. Those were the dayz.

Dirk is keenly aware of the taboo implication the word "Gay" as a self-denomination carries. He's no dummy. But he's rarely direct with his intentions either. He's slippery as a bar of soap. (He's never "straight about his feelings", if you prefer.) And for a guy that cares so much about his reputation and maintaining a curated sense of utter coolness, he wants to avoid outing himself as any sort of weirdo no matter the cost.

But that's not all. I think the gravity of just how much Dirk believes he *owes* Roxy simply for existing as the last human in the same timeframe as her is a severely underplayed aspect of Dirk's core character, together with how much he tries to avoid her sexual advances only to end up feeling like absolute shit over it, because — if they truly are the last people on god's blighted earth, isn't he being "selfish" and "irrational" about not feeling shit for Roxy, in the grand scale of things? Is Roxy not his only friend in tangible reality, even if he avoids the mere suggestion of visiting her? Even if she gets black-out drunk and tries to push him into indulging her, regardless of how many times he's already said no?

(Spend enough time here and you realize how it directly mirrors the jane/jake experience.)

Dirk cares a lot about each and every one of his friends.

He pointedly adapts his speech based on whichever one of them he's talking to in an effort to express that investment. May it be reassuring Jane, fooling around with Jake, or trying to prevent Roxy from falling into a total catatonic doom-spiral; he avoids telling them anything that would be too crushing to hear. That's not what he's trying to do here. Not to say that he isn't bitchy sometimes, but that’s far from the central thing he does. The Epilogues have retroactively led people to believe that Dirk abhors and despises every single person he's ever been close to before (god forbid) LIKING them, and I think buying too much into that assumption ignores the foundations of his canon text, as well as the central motivation behind 99% of his actions in the story. This is the guy that grew up on Friendship Is Magic, has a picture of rainbow dash shamefully glued to one wall and a rainbow poster of Jake's symbol stapled to another, and everything he does is a little cringe attempt to demonstrate his worth by showing how much he cares about people, even when he's punching his actual feelings down instead of up and saying them.

Which brings us back to the load-bearing part of this question: Admitting to Roxy that there is absolutely no fucking way he will ever agree to having her babbys because he is gay is precisely the opposite of what Dirk wants to say, if his intention isn't pulverizing her. So he doesn't. And his worry on this regard is such that it prevents Dirk from even telling Roxy that he does love her, in the platonic sense, as a friend and hell-earth survivor, because he knows that specificity is what that would disappoint her greatly. (He only ever confesses this to Jane, on the death slabs.)

But also I think this is a really funny visual of Dirk's relationship with the word gay, to put statements into perspective:

#homestuck #meta #dirk strider #roxy lalonde #dirkroxy #long post #janejake

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gyroshrike · 3 years

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Tell me why you love Gamtav; give me a whole rambling essay if you can. I like seeing people excited over the things and ships they like!

Oh, are you sure you want this? Do you really want to open Pandora's Box? Are you ready for the amount of rambling I can do about GamTav? How much time do you have? Because this is going to be a doozy. I haven't even started writing it and I can tell.

And before I get into it, people gotta know that most of this is based off of pre-murderstuck Gamzee

What do I like about GamTav? What do I like about GamTav??? One of the things that plays into me loving this ship so much is how much I love Gamzee and Tavros as individuals. Whenever I start reading a new piece of media, without question my favorite characters are almost always the really, really nice ones. Boku no Hero Academia? Kirishima. Anohana? Poppo. Legend of Korra? Bolin. And in the beginning of Homestuck, Gamzee and Tavros are just really, really NICE.

Oh, well, Gamzee is really, really nice. When we first see Tavros, he’s being a little shit to the kids, but that's because he was intentionally trying to troll. But once we get into Act 5 and we see Tavros interact with his friends, we realize he's generally a really kind person. His conversations with Nepeta, Gamzee and Aradia are all really sweet. His pesterlog with Vriska, which is the first one we get to see after he is revealed to us as a character, immediately paints a picture of him as someone struggling with his self-esteem and someone who is trying really hard to build himself up as a person. Way to fuckin’ endear me to a character IMMEDIATELY.

For most of the early comic until Act 5, we see all the trolls trolling the kids and even talking shit back and forth to each other. Gamzee was one of the first trolls who we see be purely sweet and supportive to his friends. His first pesterlog after we’re introduced to him is with Karkat and Karkat does nothing but talk shit. xD He does his usual song and dance of saying just the absolute worst things possible in that Karkat way of his and Gamzee just laughs and nods and basically says, “Yeah brother, you go, I love you, you're my best friend.”

We see Gamzee talk with Equius and we already know at this point that Equius is weird, but Gamzee is so jazzed to be talkin’ with his friend. He's just so supportive of Equius and even when Equius tells Gamzee that he must stop doing soper, Gamzee just says, “Okay, sure, you got it, I trust what you're telling me because you're my friend.” Now Equius is not actually ready for Gamzee to listen to him and backtracks and is like, “Wait, no, you don't have to listen to me, let's roleplay instead,” and Gamzee's like, “I don't know how to roleplay, but I'll try for you bro.” He’s just really fucking cute???

Short version: When we meet them, Tavros is someone you want to root for and Gamzee is just the nicest guy on the planet.

Gamzee loves his friends so much and from early on it's made apparent that he wants to love and support them, and would honestly do a lot for them even if he doesn't know what he's doing.

Also along with just being a generally sweet guy Tavros is the nerd archetype I love? He loves the troll equivalent of Pokemon and card games and other things like that. Also he just really loves animals? And I always love the characters who love animals. It's a really big weakness I have. Not to mention, talking with them? That's so COOL? So badass??? Like, UM???? He could control them, but he doesn't like forcing them to do bad things against their will. (Going off of how when suggested he control the imps to defeat them, but feels like that would be unfair/mean.)

SPEAKING OF THE IMPS. Of the twelve trolls, Tavros and Gamzee are the two of them who BEFRIENDED their imps. Isn't that so fucking rad????? They both started off fighting them at first, but then they both later mention that they are able to chill with their imps instead. Gamzee shares pie with them and Tavros communicates with them using his powers. I freaking LOVE that parallel. When I first noticed it I almost keeled over. See, I'm also a sucker for characters who like to attempt peace before conflict, so of course I'm going to love that both of them made friends instead of enemies.

So Act 5 Homestuck has already set me up to basically completely love these two characters. Now, I am a really big shipper. In almost every piece of media I go into I generally come out with ships and that's a big way that I engage with fandom. Now Homestuck, I actually didn't ship that much at first when I first started reading, which is pretty strange for me. I think I just kind of let the ships fall into my lap up until that point. I know my brain had really enjoyed the ideas of Karkat and Terezi, Dave and Terezi, and had even teased inklings of "What if?" and "Oh, I like them," about Rose and Kanaya. But for the most part I wasn't really into Homestuck for shipping at first.

The concept of GamTav, or PBJ as it was more commonly referred to then, was introduced to me by my friends. I had two irl friends who were reading the comic with me and they were ahead of me by some decent amount of pages at the time. At one point they started making references to PBJ and really liking PBJ and I was a little confused because I didn't quite know what they were referring to at first. I learned pretty soon that PBJ was Gamzee and Tavros and I remember being really excited for the ship because it was the first time I'd seen my friends get that excited for a ship. Which is really funny because now in the twilight years of the Homestuck fandom, of the three of us, I'm the only one gripping white-knuckled onto GamTav and breathing it like my life depends on it, while the other two have moved on to much different things. If I'm being honest, I'm pretty sure one of them doesn't even really like Gamzee that much anymore, but respects how much I love him and lets me rant and rave to her about him whenever I want.

It wasn't long after that that I finally got to the infamous "Make out a little" conversation between Gamzee and Tavros. I read the pesterlog and suddenly everything I had seen and heard from my friends made sense. I mean, not that I'm saying that's the ONLY reason GamTav makes sense. I just mean I understood what my friends specifically were talking about. Of the pesterlogs we've seen between them before that, Gamzee and Tavros obviously had a decent friendship. I'm pretty sure in the comic Gamzee was the first person to have a pesterlog with Tavros who is genuinely nice to him. (And this is conversation happens directly after Tavros’ conversation with Vriska, so it’s a wild contrast.) So as a friendship, I was already super down with Gamzee and Tavros-- you know what? Now that I think about it, I feel like I remember in [S] Make Her Pay being disappointed that Gamzee and Tavros were fighting alone and not with each other. Because a lot of the other trolls had paired up to be cool duos, you know? We had Karkat and Terezi, Feferi and Sollux, Nepeta and Equius, and I think I remember being bummed that Gamzee and Tavros weren't paired up. So I, at the very least, think I wanted things for these two even if I hadn't stepped into the realm of actually shipping them yet. I don't remember, this was YEARS ago.

Anyway, the infamous makeout conversation happens, and I'm sold hard for life. I have a lot of other Homestuck ships that I'm into and I enjoy, but none have ever, ever, ever, ever come close to GamTav.

I realize that I've written so much and I still haven't gotten to the meat of why I like them.

So I like ships where the parties involved are best friends. I love it when the characters in a ship are bros who love hanging out, who love doing silly things together. That awesome video "What your favorite Homestuck ship says about you" had me dead to rights. Called me out so hard. My ideal ship dynamic is "being stupid together"? Way to come for the throat. That's exactly it. At their core, Gamzee and Tavros are one of the funnest bro combinations I have ever seen. And what makes them so fun is both of them are huge dorks. HUGE dorks.

When we first meet Gamzee, he stares off into the colors of his miracle modus while making the most ridiculous face, tries to unicycle but just fuckin' pieruettes right off if it because his legs are too short, and just straight up reaches into his modus with his bare hands. Don't even get me started on how he scares himself with his own horns. That shit kills me.

We've already talked about how Tavros is a huge nerd, so that's covered. But like… have you heard him rap? This guy just gets so into it and has so much fun while simultaneously sounding so silly. He's flirty and awkward and ridiculous and has this shit eating grin on all the time.

They are those two friends who get up to shenanigans where everyone else around them just kind of shakes their head and thinks that they're so dumb (in an affectionate way), but they don't care because all they DO care about is how much fun they're having together.

One of my favorite things about Homestuck in general is it lets its characters be bad at things. John and Karkat suck at coding. Gamzee, Tavros, and Dave are bad at rapping. Rose becomes a prolific author, but I would argue she's bad at writing when she's 13 because, wow is it a slog to get through her wizard fanfiction LMAO.

And GamTav is a perfect example of two people who just have fun together being bad at things together. There's no pretense of needing to be cool or needing to be good at something or any type of shame or embarrassment. They're just so silly and they don't mind being silly around each other and they never make the other person ashamed of who they are. We even see some of that last bit in the comic. Gamzee never puts Tavros down. In one conversation, he acknowledges Tavros' disability, but doesn't taunt Tavros for it, doesn't make it a joke, or make him feel bad. It's just acknowledged and then they move on. Then Tavros mentions that while he doesn't share Gamzee's religious or spiritual views, he is supportive of them. I am such a sucker for shit like that.

In every way, shape, and form, Gamzee and Tavros are supportive of each other and just and totally uplift the other person. Both of these characters go through so much verbally (both jokingly and maliciously) at the hands of their peers for being who they are that Gamzee and Tavros' conversations were so refreshing to just see them be unabashedly themselves with another person.

And they make each other happy! Tavros' first conversation with Gamzee was the first time we see where Tavros is purely elated to be talking to the person he is talking to. And Tavros obviously makes Gamzee really happy. They just make each other so happy! And I love that shit!

Gamzee is, without restraint, supportive of everything that is Tavros. Gamzee is the type of person who would look at anything Tavros wants to do or is trying to do and put his whole heart in supporting Tavros and telling him, "Yeah bro, you can do this, you're amazing, I love you, go get 'em, you're the best, you can do anything you put your mind to,” and I love that for Tavros.

Gamzee was the friend I spent all of Homestuck wishing Tavros had. Tavros spent so much time talking to Vriska, interacting with Vriska, adventuring with Vriska. And that entire time I was just wishing that Gamzee was there instead, just so Tavros would have someone to be nice to him.

After murderstuck, I spent years waiting for Gamzee and Tavros to meet in a dream bubble. That was all I wanted. I wanted Gamzee to have to look Tavros in the eye and face what he had done, own up to everything to the person he loved most in the world. But of course, post murderstuck, Gamzee gets everything stripped away from him that made him the character he was in the beginning. It wasn't even a satisfying villain arc! It was just confusing! I feel like I could have dealt with it if Gamzee was a well-rounded villain. But instead his entire villain shtick was just surrounded by a bunch of question marks! I spent all of Homestuck waiting to learn what exactly was going on with Gamzee and then we never got that and that fucked me up.

And of course, oh, of course, up until the very end of the series, in the very, very, very last animation we ever see, Homestuck Act 7, Tavros is standing by Vriska's side, as he has had to do since the very beginning.

I haven't read the epilogues or Homestuck 2, so I'm not going to touch on anything that happens in those series and I would appreciate it if no one responded to this with spoilers. Don't even tell me things like, "Oh, you'll like Gamzee," or "Oh, you'll hate Gamzee," or anything like that. I don't want any hints. I already got enough. I want to form my own opinion when I finally get the energy to go in.

Nowadays, I stick almost exclusively to humanstuck AU's for my GamTav. Because even if canon GamTav wasn't so sad and depressing, there are other things that make me way too sad to think about. As a bronze blood, Tavros's lifespan is going to be significantly shorter than Gamzee's. No matter the good or bad context surrounding their relationship. Even if they were the perfect, fluffy, happy couple in canon, I can't deal with that lifespan difference. It breaks my goddamn heart.

I live in a world where I can rewrite the circumstances surrounding these characters and make it play out in a way that is much more to my liking. Writing them in humanstuck AU's lets me take away all of the things that make my heart hurt and instead repurpose them for really meaningful, emotional character building arcs and that's my main focus when it comes to GamTav.

Something I'm also really picky with when it comes to this ship is that I need the core of Gamzee and Tavros' character growth to happen apart from each other. I have found that I don't like stories that center Gamzee and Tavros or their relationship as the pivotal point of their development. I don't like when Gamzee is the pillar of Tavros' confidence. I do like when Gamzee helps out building Tavros' confidence by being supportive and saying nice things and encouraging him, but I don't like it when he is the main source. I don't want Tavros' growth to be hinged on Gamzee being in his life.

The same goes for Gamzee. I don't like stories where Tavros is the one thing keeping Gamzee from doing bad things. I don't like when their relationship is framed as being the one thing keeping Gamzee from going murder mode all over his friends again. I've read fics where Gamzee struggles either with murderous instincts as a troll or mental health as a human and Tavros is one of the only things that keeps him from going off the deep end. I don't like that. I want Gamzee's growth to be primarily on his own or at the very least not supported by his romantic partner. Of course, I love it when Tavros is there when he needs him to hold him or soothe him or say kind things or help him through his struggles. I'm not saying I don't want Tavros to comfort him at all or ever, I just don't want Tavros to be his sole anchor.

I just love idiot best friends in love.

Oh, OH! ALSO. Gamzee doesn’t give a FUCK about the hemospectrum. One of the first things he says to Equius is how he doesn’t get it, how he’s not better than anyone else, how he doesn’t even know how to ACT better than anyone else. How am I not supposed to love that?

Opposite sides of the hemospecturm relationships are so fun. I love the idea of Gamzee entering a room full of strangers and them being like “Oh no! :O !!!! Scary subjuggulator!!” and Tavros comes rushing over all happy and excited and they just snuggle all cute and gross and everyone watching’s jaw just drops.

This might sound weird, but I also think one of the things that endear me to characters is them getting misinterpreted and then me having fun drawing them more ‘accurately’? Tavros is so often depicted as uwu soft weepy boi and I love drawing him with a mischievous grin just as ready to do something stupid and get himself into trouble as Gamzee is. Equius TOLD Tavros not to go near the stairs with his new robo legs. What is one of the things Tavros does immediately? Go try the fuckin’ stairs. And he KEEPS DOING IT.

*lays down on the floor* I just… I just want domestic GamTav where they move into a nice wheelchair accessible home (modified in a similar way to Tavros' hive in Pesterquest) and Gamzee massages Tav's back when it aches and tells him he's the light of his life and in turn Tavros holds Gamzee close on his darker days and Tavros kisses his hands and brushes his hair out of his eyes and boops his nose and they laugh so hard together that they cry.

#homestuck #gamtav #gamzee x tavros #gamzee makara #tavros nitram #hs pbj #homestuck pbj #asks for me #anon #HERE IS IS ANON #RAMBLY AS ALL HELL

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incorrect-hs-quotes · 3 years

Note

what are some of mod dave's aus

uhh ok this is a fucking plethora

SO I HAVE!!

HUMANSTUCK - i just imagine this one by default,,, uhh john was definitely born in athens greece. terezis been chinese / korean this whole time idk what youre talking abou-,t-

DEMIGODSTUCK - i Know i have gone into detail about on this blog before. my favorite concepts from this one are greyro ace vitiligo aphrodite son karkat who doesnt feel like he fits in with his cabin cause they make fun of him for being “ugly” and “loveless” and then he comes around and completes a quest and becomes head counselor, and uhhh hephaestus dirk who has pyrokinesis and also loses an arm so now hes got a metal one he built himself

DONT LOOK DOWN - my greyromantic human-collegestuck 18kword banekat fic im writing which ive Also mentioned on this blog before

DEAD KIDS - this is based off a katie alender book called “the dead girls of hysteria hall” please read that book its fucking phenomenal dave is the one who inherited the asylum and all the homestuck girls are the ghosts trapped inside its made my friends cry before when i made them read it hal almost busted out his witch charm and warded me away cause of dead kids

DONT STARVE - where everyone lives in the 1920s and they get sucked into tim burton minecraft island hell and they all gotta survive there (handmaid is definitely charlie. it fucks aradia up cause she Knows. think like winona. she gets one free night without being consumed by the darkness itself cause Family Reasons)

MINECRAFT - this one is where a lot of people are like sentient humanoid half-creatures like sollux is half creeper half human and dont. uh. dont get him mad. also drowned eridan and feferi but theyre not dead or brainless they just be lookin like that. its cool !! you know !!!

MEDIEVALSTUCK - terezi is an oracle of the church except not anymore shes blasphemous and gets exiled and its her and a bunch of friends who are all like “wow the kingdom thought i was weird too lets all have an adventure together”!! examples: dave cant be a knight cause his eyes are red and that means hes the devil. sollux is a mage who specializes in death-related magic so obviously he brought upon this plague. rose is a lesbian thats not allowed also shes a WITCH. kanayas a vampire. shes just a vampire. she proposes to rose with a sword

EARTH INVASION - this is a no-sburb au where the alternian empire came and took over earth as a colony, also all the trolls exist at the same time as the revolution so like the whole vantas family gets to help out, and the humans are taken as like property cause theyre Technically Lowbloods but theyre Not having it so they all escape and join the rebellion and take down the GOVERNMENT

TROLLSTUCK - daves a mutantblood (same idea where all troll generations exist at the same time) and he finds the vantas rebellion and JADE is a LIMEBLOOD and she is NOT having a good time but shshhs shh its ok shes an olive its FINE

BLOOD / KIDSWAP - kanaya is the vantas and she thinks shes so clever cause shes posing as a bronzeblood. there IS sburb in this one. also dave egbert and john harley. love those boys. jade lalonde is a terrifying concept if she ever goes grimdark run away immediately

OPPOSITESTUCK - jade is the main character and she just wants everyone to shut the fuck up. this is also a sburb au and she hates her land its Too Loud. uhh rose is a being of chaos and exists in the void outside of spacetime itself. and john is a little bastard. tavros is now The Antichad. which is a valid ancestor name actually-

CYBERSTUCK - this one is really really specific, uhh its a post-apocalyptic dystopian cyberpunk futuristic humanstuck where the city everyone lives in once flourished with the help of several versions of androids, but as they advanced they needed more and more power which became fucking nuclear and there was a fallout. so now everythings radioactive, everyones scrounging to survive, androids from “the underground” (the main core of where most of specifically the power droids were kept) are SUPER fucking valuable cause theyre able to give you power, and the radioactivity mutated a lot of people so instead of zombies there are just mutants. and roxy is one of them but theyre still sentient so they look like fucking HEINOUSTUCK roxy but theyre still like. vibing

MAFIASTUCK - where everyone does Illegal Things but mostly not like morally illegal things. just like. yknow daves a thief and. sollux is the most wanted anonymous hacker in texas,, uh. dirk commits arson sometimes,. vriska is vriska,.. jane is in on some high key white collar crimes in the crockercorp company,, and poor john is just this normal idiot surrounded by all of this at college and hes like “god. i hate you all. please be normal”

MIRACULOUS LADYBUG - uhh john has a miraculous and its firefly themed and thats his name !! “firefly”!!! his Big Power is like “typhoon” or some shit he can make a big storm Go and serenity the firefly is his little fuckin uhhh Friend. the Miraculous Animal i forgot what it was called

YOUTUBERSTUCK - this ones based off unus annus p much where like theyre all youtubers and thats how they all met like john and dahnte (banes oc, ive also talked about dahnte) are unus annus and dave and sollux are like. good mythical morning and roxy is an asmr channel and kanaya is a makeup tutorial channel and jade has a vlog with her dog and its called doggy vloggies and eridan does all these science experiments and jane has a baking channel and nepeta ,, she just like. does, what she does and people like her. she doesnt have a genre. shes just nepeta on youtube. and shes a fucking hit. also dirk and jake make music

then like i obviously have concept aus that are pretty much just designs, like gemstuck where theyre all . ,, steven universe gems, and then rwbystuck where theyre all at beacon academy and have their own semblances, and a one piece au where theyre all pirates and some of them ate the Big Shit Fruits, and my own flavor of demonstuck cause who doesnt have a demonstuck, and stardew valley stuck (which i call starstuck valley) where a couple of them are farmers on their own respective farms and they all come together amidst the idiot villagers and go “hey did that wizard make you drink that leaf juice soup too or like is that just me”, and a survivalstuck where the whole premise is like. “the forest” kinda game. oh shit your plane went down and youre stranded in the woods. find your friends and survive. maybe dont get near those eight-armed women with no heads. thats a good idea

long story short i have. uh. a plethora

#not a quote #mod dave #long

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rosemary-is-in-pesterquest · 3 years

Note

ooh! I have thoughts on Eridan!

okay so, to me, Eridan ties into this thing that homestuck has going on with a lot of its more morally grey characters... the question of how responsible young people are for their negative qualities and actions, and where the age threshold for personal responsibility is.

the characters in homestuck all straddle this line between being young enough to consider them victims of the forces that influence them, while also old enough to understand what they're doing and how it affects others... especially because a lot of these kids come off as really smart for their age, and very precocious. we've all been through phases in our lives that make us cringe, not because we're ashamed of something harmless, but because we recognize that we had absorbed something harmful, and took longer than we wish we had to unlearn it. it could be as simple as being kind of a jerk in a misguided attempt to seem cool, or as dramatic as actually hurting someone in an attempt to remedy one's own insecurities by putting down others to seem better by comparison... but how far can you push that before people aren't willing to forgive? before people abandon the notion that better guidance and more appropriate role models could reform someone? and it's especially interesting when you consider how old homestuck's core audience might've been when they first encountered this story, and how it affected their perception of the characters if they saw them as peers, rather than as children from an adult's perspective.

so to talk about Eridan, I wanna frame this in terms of his classpect, because it actually goes a long way towards contextualizing his behavior. Eridan is a prince of hope, meaning that he destroys hope or uses hope to destroy... and this can be seen in practically every conversation he has. if Eridan is contacting someone, it is because he expects something of them. advice, or consolation, or a solution to a problem he's having... it's always something. when he contacts Kanaya, he wants her to auspistize between him and Vriska. when he contacts Feferi, he wants her to give him encouragement, and maybe date him when he asks. and in every case, the way he demands these things by being rude, whiny, or self pitying, makes people reluctant or unwilling to give him what he expects. he destroys what he hopes to obtain.

it goes deeper than that though. Eridan has absorbed this ideology of sea dweller superiority from living on Alternia... and he actually takes it way farther than it even makes sense to. the aristocracy on Alternia use the lower class for all sorts of menial work that they feel entitled not to have to do themselves. they might have the ability to freely cull individual low bloods for any reason, but eradicating all land dwelling trolls would leave a lot of unpleasant yet necessary tasks with no one to do them. I don't think Eridan actually wants to live in a reality where sea dwellers have to pick up the slack of doing things like sanitation work, or construction or something... but another concept that is heavily tied to the hope aspect is delusion. Eridan is exaggerating. he's trying to agree with Alternia's ruthless class structure so hard that it's actually kind of absurd. but Feferi calls him on that... she says she thinks that he self sabotages on purpose. because he knows, at least in some capacity, that the consequences of getting what he "wants" would actually be really uncomfortable to live with.

so not only is Eridan's goal to destroy... it is also a false goal that he constantly undermines. and all of his waffling between grandstanding and self pity destroys his romantic prospects, which are what he actually seems to want the most.

if you look at the way Eridan pursues relationships, he actually makes a lot of logical sense, but not a lot of emotional sense. he's idealized the act of perfectly filling the relationship requirements of each quadrant. he wants Feferi to be his matesprit, which is purely based on the fact that she's high enough on the hemospectrum to be an appropriate match in terms of status. he wants Vriska to be his kismesis, and Kanaya to be their auspistice, and there are hints that Karkat might've been someone he was considering for moiraillegience, though it wasn't emphasized as much. and there you go! his goal is specific, but it's based more on ideals than on the actual needs and feelings of the people involved, and it's totally self centered... he always wants them to cater to his own needs. the reason why he gets as nihilistic as he does on the meteor, is because all of his endeavors to achieve these relationships are falling through. he feels like he has no hope of mending his existing connections, because he still only sees them in terms of people either giving him, or not giving him, what he wants. but the rest of their race is dead. as the last twelve trolls in existence, they only have each other as romantic options. and as Eridan gets more and more desperate, he gets more and more demanding, which is the exact quality that drives everyone away from him to begin with, and it culminates in him having a "if I can't have what I want then nobody can have any of their hopes either" meltdown.

to backtrack a bit, I wanna reconsider questions such as, when is a kid old enough to be held responsible for their own negative qualities? like... when are you comfortable with ceasing to blame environmental factors? when are they just a bad person? is it after they've refused a certain number of chances to make better choices? when do they reach an age, or level of bad behavior, that makes you think they can't be helped to reform from these negative qualities? where does an adult lose their patience for the idea that a kid is just a victim of their upbringing?

obviously Feferi is Eridan's peer, but these are basically the questions she grapples with when she talks to Eridan. it's like growing up next door to a kid whose parents have some aggressively wrong-headed political stances. as you grow, that kid might mirror their parents' way of thinking... and by the time the two of you are in your teens, it's hard to ignore how much of a jerk that kid is becoming. but you've seen them at every step of their development. you know where it comes from. maybe theirs is the dominant political belief in the community, even if your own parents aren't like that. maybe you wonder if you would've agreed with them if you grew up under their circumstances. you've felt the pressure, but you haven't lived in it like they have, and maybe if they just had the chance to grow up under different conditions, they wouldn't be this way. and you are aware that you could be an influence on them... maybe they need you to help them see another perspective. you always got along so well as kids. when did things even change? and that's kind of where I imagine Feferi is at when we're introduced to her and Eridan. it's a crossroads between believing that you might still matter enough to them to change their outlook, and the persistence of their ingrained beliefs. it's tiring to do that kind of work, over a long period of time, to minimal results. when is the appropriate time to give up? in this way, Feferi's own hopes for Eridan fade over time. she says at one point that she was mainly acting as his moirail so he wouldn't try to underfeed her lusus and kill the land dwellers that way. she's not sure how serious he is, and she can't take that risk. deep down, I'm pretty sure Eridan knew he was never actually going to commit a genocide... but his need to grandstand, and legitimate belief in his caste superiority, had convinced Feferi enough that she still felt obligated to manage him as though he was a real threat.

these characters are thirteen years old. they're right at the edge of childhood and adolescence... right at the age where children aren't quite so innocent. they want to assert themselves. they aren't mature, so there's a lot of responsibility that they still shouldn't be trusted with yet, but they've become aware enough to feel like that's demeaning, and to want to be taken seriously. in an effort to make people acknowledge them without looking down on them, they'll try just about anything. they don't have the experience to know what they're doing yet, so it doesn't always work in their favor, and that's frustrating. you can see bits and pieces of this in homestuck's characters. like with the way they try to paint themselves as an authority on something, or shit talk each other in order to emphasize their own strengths. it's a really interesting theme, because homestuck pushes some of these young characters really far in terms of how bad the things they've done can be, or how much their lived experiences have taught them that what they're doing is acceptable. they can be really self aware in some ways, and come off as really childish in others. it's hard to know what you'd do about them in real life... and your answer changes depending on your own age and perspective. it's a really cool gray area to poke around in, and homestuck is excellent at it.

wtf I like Eridan now

#when you think about it a lot eridan really was just a misguided 13 yr old

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bladekindeyewear · 4 years

Text

HS^2 bloggin’ mainline 2020-08-06

♪ HS2 HS2 is baaaaack ♪

♪ HS2bloggin here we gooooo ♪

♪ Structural changes on their team but I don’t caaaaare ♪

♪ Already resooolved myself that its NOOOT gonna beee as good ♪ with inattentiveness to details characters like Terezi forgetting-what-they-used-to-know and an obsession with dwelling on traaageeeDEEE without relief-or-considering how weee’d feeeeeeel~ ♪♪♪ --so just gonna enjoy-what-i-caaaaaan about iiit~ ♪♪♪

Okay time for bankruptcy

> CHAPTER 11. History's Most Notorious Haters

Let’s see how effectively my perky new lowered-expectations attitude lets me enjoy this comic *click*

wut

Oh. so is this Dave drawing comics about current events or Regular Calliope doing so for our very first lanky look at her presumably-grown-up-more cherub form

> Knight: Keep it real.

HOLY SHIT IT’S DAVEBOT AND ARADIA

so we just get to SEE them?! just like that??? no buildup or anything? :D

Okay I’m marking out a little that’s a good sign. Also what a nerdy cop-out to turn the roboteyes into glasses that’s barely passable which is perfect, the rest of his outfit looks pretty cool tho

DAVEBOT: and thats reason four hundred nineteen why despite my mans many accomplishments i will never acknowledge big skateboardings contrived message that tony hawk is the quintessential skater of our generation ARADIA: o_o DAVEBOT: not in these trying times

Good to see Ultimate Dave is being true to form with regards to the core of his personality

DAVEBOT: beep boop ARADIA: i have told you several times that i was a robot before and i know for a fact you dont have to say beep boop DAVEBOT: hm that sounds fake does not compute ARADIA: david DAVEBOT: mom

I was with this conversation until the last two lines what the fuck

(I’m reading into it aren’t I, Aradia was trying to be atypically proper -- even though she wouldn’t have the frame of reference to know without being specifically told that “Dave” was considered nickname shorthand for the human name David, and thus if she DID know there’s no reason she’d use it except to troll him -- and Dave’s just mocking her response. Without any shame about his continued weirdness of calling people Mom, and by without any shame I mean he made the choice EXPLICITLY to intentionally evoke the awkwardness. Wow I got a lot out of two lines.)

(Oh, also alt!Callie’s true Jade-body incarnation here probably prompted her to start using “David” by example. There, various mysteries solved via a pile of assumptions probably to be disproven in the next couple lines I read.)

The Knight and the Maid stare at each other briefly, having exchanged enough meaningful glances over their time together to know when to drop it.

Would Time players have an easier time gelling this way, like this particular smoothness? Dropping it just before it gets weird or excessively irritating?

(Overclasspecting)

ARADIA: i think we have exchanged enough meaningful glances over our time together to know when to drop this DAVEBOT: what i enjoy about our conversations is that you just say things like that

OKAY I SNRK’D AT THAT. That was funny.

Initially. And now I’m concerned whether Aradia is being controlled by the narrative-speak, or whether they’re both just humorously referencing the meta-text they can both see, or--

ARADIA: oh is that what you enjoy ARADIA: well we are both an infinite number of years old living countless lifetimes at once but thats no reason to waste any of our...

WHAT??!? She’s an Ultimate Self too?!?

Um, okay! Yeah! So they’re BOTH just riffing on the narrative then. But... why would Dave need a robot body to accommodate his Ultimate Psyche without getting sick but Rose not need it? I can understand Dirk not needing it because the merging of the full breadth of his multiversal individuality gels well with him being a God of the aspect governing the power of his multiversal individuality, but Aradia?

Were the robot bodies not necessary after all, and the sickness Rose suffered and Obama thought Dave would have suffered some sort of ruse? Are there shenanigans afoot? (Or are we going with the “troll biology is better” cop-out?)

She knows how this will play out, having undoubtedly tried this joke on her friend in some timeline or another. Their rapport reflects a unique combination of their matching aspects but greatly differing classes. One a passive but powerful servant to time, the other wielding the aspect like a honed blade.

WHAT????

PASSIVE SERVANT OF THE ASPECT?!? WHAT THE FUCK

Okay if that means anything like it sounds like I guess my class chart is finally blown up, sure, they only waited (*checks last edit date*) SEVEN AND A HALF YEARS TO BLOW THAT GUESS UP, SURE

Wow. Okay, I feel some obligation to jump to conclusions and say the whole class chart is wrong, but let me stay strapped in to see if “passive” is as literal as one would expect alt!Callie to mean, or it just means “an active class passive compared to other classes”. And, serving the aspect? Oh dammit, now people are gonna come at me advocating a Maid / Page dichotomy about actively serving the aspect versus allowing the aspect to be served... or Page / Maid even, jesus

I wish I had enough energy to have those chats anymore. I’d rather hold on and see the whole ridiculous chart scheme they have in mind... which is definitely (and hopefully) the one Andrew really drew up at the time and not made up by the staff, even if it throws away plenty of my old work... I’ll just stop thinking about it and keep reading.

...

--no, I don’t think I can just stop thinking about it yet. Dammit, brain.

So um. Maids serving their aspect. There was a whole “Maids serve” thing going on throughout the whole plot of Homestuck, but despite how prevalent it was, I wrote it off as the story riffing on the classical definition of Maid when the actual stuff Maids accomplished was something different and more specific, just like Knights constantly got riffed on for chivalry and the like. Furthermore, service seemed like a really shitty class definition, when class definitions are the verbs one uses to interact with reality through Aspects to change the way reality unfolds, and “serving” isn’t really an action that results in change, implying a distinct deficit of agency that I wouldn’t have viewed as fair. (Especially since you originally think “meant to serve others” and not “meant to serve the aspect”, implying even LESS agency.) Furthermore, MOST passive classes from their descriptions seem to have a propensity to act “as if by the will of the aspect”, so even with the nuance of “serving the aspect”, devoting an entire class verb to service would just step on the territory of other active/passive class pairs’ passive sides, right?

But... IF we were to take this for granted as what it SEEMS... then concentrating on that angle of “serving the aspect” implies a whole lot more agency than a service class might sound on its surface. The definition fits with the story better once you contextualize all the Maid-y references to service around Jane, for instance, with the additional idea of “serving Life” by baking prolifically and creating more of its symbols in food and--

--fuck. “Serving”, like serving to others. Serving the aspect as its attendant AND serving it out to others that need it. Maybe this still IS part of the Additive class pair! Whoa. :O

Okay okay so, what I/we thought before was:

Create/Add - Maid / Sylph

Destroy/Reduce - Prince / Bard

But “additive” really isn’t an elegant verb compared to the “Destroyer” classes, so... could it be the “Servants” and the “Destroyers”? Like Maids cleaning up and healing the broken wreckage strewn through the halls by a bratty Prince’s tantrum???

It’d certainly be weird... and it’d CERTAINLY be a wild twist where I was partially wrong in some fascinating ways but not entirely off base?

One a passive but powerful servant to time, the other wielding the aspect like a honed blade.

And yet, I can’t bet on this being the situation yet; not at all. First, it relies on the idea that alt!Callie’s explicit narrative here is slightly misleading, which would be a pretty extreme thing to commit to, even for a technical truth like “she was saying it was passive relative to other classes even though it’s technically “active””. Second... it would mean that Muses are even more wildly defined than the previous insinuation of hers, that the Sylph -- what we thought was the passive additive class -- was not enough like a Muse compared to a Witch. Muses not being that Additive? I could grudgingly understand that, but Muses not being anything like passive Servants?! That would be EXTREMELY weird!

So... there’s not a whole lot of chance that I’m not dramatically wrong somewhere about these classes! In a way that throws the entire chart into disarray!

I’m... oddly excited? Huh.

That’s a pretty nice surprise that I actually feel that way.

(Don’t hit me up all at once to discuss this Classpect development over Discord, I’ll still need a few days without talking about Homestuck to recharge as usual. Like... maybe wait and come at me as a group chat? So I’m not talking about the latest developments separately with everyone? No that wouldn’t work, how about... guh I dunno, look my outlook’s a little more positive right now but dealing with Homestuck still takes emotional energy okay?)

Okay the rest of this page...

ARADIA: ... DAVEBOT: time then make a weird face ARADIA: ........ DAVEBOT: waste time DAVEBOT: time ARADIA:............. DAVEBOT: i experience all points of time simultaneously please just say time and make a weird face

This is true.

ARADIA: .................. DAVEBOT: cmon megido youre killing me clocks ticking ARADIA: ... ARADIA: time o_o

The Maid casts a furtive glance around the empty crew quarters, as though to search for someone more sympathetic to her bit.

ARADIA: tough crowd

Dorks.

> ==>

(Lazy fruit-throwing sword-training I won’t bother to screenshot but looks fun)

(I mean, really lazy looking, these people really don’t have Andrew’s knack for action composition that would make the same amount of gif-creation effort feel like a microcosm of the event they’re depicting, unfortunately. Again, I don’t blame them; Andrew was just too good at it.)

DAVEBOT: ok heres one DAVEBOT: how old do you think you are ARADIA: emotionally? ARADIA: that is a pretty heavy topic DAVEBOT: you know damn well thats not what i meant ARADIA: you know I have been through a lot dave DAVEBOT: ok ARADIA: its just so kind of someone DAVEBOT: ok i get it ARADIA: to finally ask how i feel ARADIA: i am beside myself with emotions ARADIA: i want to open up DAVEBOT: jesus christ ARADIA: shall i open up about my past traumas to you ARADIA: would you enjoy that ARADIA: to think even a frog like me can work through their pain with a dear friend ARADIA: you have truly blessed me on this day dave strider

Is Aradia JUST trolling here or is her Ultimate Self grappling with a ton of real unresolved trauma too that she’s bullshitting around Dave-style?

DAVEBOT: times fun when youre having flies

Okay that’s a damned good frog pun.

Alright now Davebot’s rapping

DAVEBOT: lacking tact i stay stacked while i breach contract DAVEBOT: sacred vows disavowed got divorce fever DAVEBOT: i leave her DAVEBOT: dont look back dont perceive her ARADIA: do you want to talk about it :( DAVEBOT: about what ARADIA: would you say you are hung up on leaving your wife and friends behind

Goddamnit is DAVE’S ton of real unresolved trauma leaking into his raps unintentionally Dave-style?? I knew we had to address it when we cut to Davebot but how about LESS TRAGEDY IN THIS COMIC MAYBE

DAVEBOT: arent you even a little guilty about ditching your boyfriend ARADIA: what ARADIA: oh fuck

But she knew what she was doing when she did it she explicitly did it didn’t she? Epilogues quote:

DAVEBOT: what about your boy DAVEBOT: eyepatches ARADIA: oh sollux is in one of his moods ARADIA: this was all getting to be a bit much for him ARADIA: if i go ill probably just cut him loose DAVEBOT: good move

And then they stepped through the sky hole more or less. Did like, distracted Ultimate Aradia not realize exactly how long she was leaving Sollux for, ie forever? Or did she “ascend” to Ultimate status later and hadn’t thought back to the full consequences of her actions within this timeline? Or both? From the looks of the link we’ll probably find out on the next pa--

--Wait. Something else I just thought of, unrelated.

If Aradia is an Ultimate Self, that’s another coincidentally Ultimate version of someone hanging around that happens to be on the prospective list of Soul-Powered Jujus that might have their creation loops closed in the coming story. Could those two things play into each other somehow? Like instead of their souls getting stuffed into the items, their “Ultimateness” is? Or as if that’s a necessary component, or... no, I’m probably overthinking things.

> (Months in the past, but not many...)

Uh huh. Is that flashing because he’s “watching” Aradia leave? But I thought Aradia SAID she was leaving--

> (==>)

--and that black hole portal doesn’t look as cool as it sounded in the Epilogues. But why was Aradia acting surprised, she said “I’ll probably just cut him loose” mere MOMENTS before entering the portal, did she mean “cut him loose” as in “I’m going to talk to him before leaving” and then just IMMEDIATELY forget that she didn’t say anything to him because she cared so little???

Wait. Waaaait wait wait. I think. I think maybe I missed some subtext. Lemme do some fuller quotes here:

ARADIA: oh sollux is in one of his moods ARADIA: this was all getting to be a bit much for him ARADIA: if i go ill probably just cut him loose DAVEBOT: good move

His gaze remains fixed on her. She blinks and looks away, unsure what to say next. He’s standing perfectly still, presumably waiting for her to say something. She met him... what was it? Once, twice before? She can’t remember. But she knows this is a very different Dave. Aside from the metal skin, he seems implacably confident. But then, people go through changes. She’s been through more than her share. She cocks an eyebrow, recalling her own stint with a metal body.

DAVEBOT: hey earth to whats your face ARADIA: oh ARADIA: its aradia

[...]

DAVEBOT: youre coming DAVEBOT: better decide quick i doubt that dank fuckin hell funnel is staying open for much longer ARADIA: yes i suppose so ARADIA: thats where all the action is right? DAVEBOT: all the action that matters yeah ARADIA: off we go then :) DAVEBOT: word

He holds out his hand. She looks around, and assumes he means for her to take it, so she does. She didn’t know someone could fly this fast. He nearly yanks her arm out of its socket. She considers reminding him that maybe this isn’t necessary, since she can fly too. But she doesn’t want to risk saying more embarrassing stuff around this outrageously cool dude. Besides, they’re through the wormhole before she can even finish the thought. It vanishes the moment they’ve crossed.

...this was a SHIPPING thing wasn’t it. She’s impressed as hell with Striderbot, she SAID she’d cut things off with Sollux, and then she was so busy being swooped off her feet and into the portal that she forgot to actually say anything to him. Is that what happened????

Ultimate Self Davebot x Ultimate Self Aradia. Huh. Didn’t see that coming. (Though, again... they could make it SLIGHTLY clearer that this wasn’t just a blatant continuity error.)

Anyway, a rare-don’t-get-used-to-it [S] page...

> [S] (Gaze.)

...Okay that was kinda funny.

> (==>)

SOLLUX: h0w the fuck am i g0ing t0 get d0wn fr0m here.

HAH! Okay, he’s taking it pretty well. :) --and THAT’s what she realized she forgot, giving him a flight down from the tower before leaving.

GOOD. KEEP THINGS HUMOROUS EVEN WHEN LITERAL ABANDONMENT IS HAPPENING. THAT’S the Homestuck I was missing. :) :) :)

> Back to reality.

(Since the black hole is outside “canon” reality.)

Those are some cool poses-AHAH JESUS CHRIST ALT!JADE YOU LOOK ABSOLUTELY TERRIFYING XD

COULD YOU MAYBE HAVE CLEANED UP THE DRIED BLOOD AT SOME POINT OR IS SOME OF THAT FRESH FROM EATING MORE RAW MEAT

(Lord English’s blood leaving permanent timeless bloodstains would be a cool new thing to squeeze into canon i admit, i wouldn’t blame them for taking the excuse even if you could find small canon counterexamples I’m not sure of but dimly think might exist)

((ALSO SHE’S GONNA BE TINY NEXT TO THEM I DUNNO IF THAT MAKES IT MORE TERRIFYING OR LESS, PROBABLY MORE))

DAVEBOT: so youre telling me you dont even feel a little bad that you ditched him to be a weird death acolyte ARADIA: no i think he found my wiles both charming and irresistible DAVEBOT: not even an ounce of guilt or self doubt huh DAVEBOT: just like that DAVEBOT: no conversations about the greater good DAVEBOT: no revelations about your feelings

Is Aradia a jerk or weird? Can’t decide.

ARADIA: do you often find your faith in yourself shaken like this or is it a new experience now that your mortal coil has been left behind DAVEBOT: what ARADIA: do you think now that all that is left of you is a literal ghost inside of a machine you are more or less likely to embrace finality DAVEBOT: oh dope more cult of one shit DAVEBOT: immortality changed you ARADIA: could it be that you are projecting your feelings onto my situation DAVEBOT: does not compute rose jr ARADIA: ... ARADIA: we dont have to talk about it DAVEBOT: thanks

Wow, I actually can’t follow this conversation at all. Let me stare at it for a sec...

...okay, the first part she’s talking about DAVE’s faith in HIMself being shaken, not her own. She’s not asking if he relates to HER experience, she’s contrasting it.

Then, asking if he’d be more likely to embrace death, or... Time? Death. Whether his self-worth has changed because he might view himself as “less real”, something Aradia doubtless struggled with when she was a robot who already had so many excuses to devalue herself at the time? And then Dave talks about “cult of one” shit what does that even mean-...

OH. Like she’s a death cult. Gooot it. Because Aradia’s of the position that death and ending should be celebrated, and Davebot understandably isn’t entirely bought in. This is as hard to parse down as one would EXPECT conversations between two Ultimate Selves to be hard to parse down, unlike Rose and Dirk where their insane missions and glaring flaws shine bright enough through it all that you can follow their conversation flow easily.

JADE: They sit in each other's presence, the silence between them as meaningful as any words they could exchange. DAVEBOT: its always really cool to hear how meaningful my silences are DAVEBOT: especially while DAVEBOT: CALCULATING DAVEBOT: CALCULATING DAVEBOT: especially while i am attempting to experience them

Alt!Callie pulling a narrative-text AFTER a talk-identifier like “JADE:” is really hilarious in my opinion.

JADE: i do not need your approval. the story will continue how it must. DAVEBOT: beep boop hater detected ARADIA: wow is that true JADE: i am not a hater. DAVEBOT: classic hater line DAVEBOT: i know this because i am pouring through genuine actual quadrabytes of information on historys most notorious haters JADE: no, you aren’t.

Pffffff. This is pretty fun.

DAVEBOT: you are the exact opposite of a hater ARADIA: a liker DAVEBOT: ok DAVEBOT: perfect example your tolerance for whatever is going on with DAVEBOT: all this ARADIA: i think she looks quite lovely covered in the viscera of the all-powerful enemy she consumed ARADIA: floating lifelessly in our periphery ARADIA: observing our every action and noting its relevance :) DAVEBOT: uh huh thats what i mean

I was gonna note “liker” as additive for pointless classpect purposes, but really more quoting it just because I really enjoy this conversation. I’m starting to get sold on the chemistry of these two a lot faster than I expected.

JADE: even though I understand that it must happen, i am growing frustrated with the direction of this conversation. DAVEBOT: do you want to talk about something else stinky JADE: what would you suggest?

How long has that dried fucking blood been on her

DAVEBOT: ok hear me out DAVEBOT: kanaya DAVEBOT: but like DAVEBOT: wearing huge jorts

That explains Homestuck’s twitter earlier

> Weeks in the future, relative to the original point of interest...

Wait wait which point of interest? This time we were just viewing? *click*

I love what must be this shitty imagination-ship they’re using to cross the substrate of reality

> ==>

Whoaaaa. So they DIDN’T stay in those outfits for long? It showed them in a bunk bed earlier, it showed CallieJade still going around blood-covered afterward-- dammit, I’m having a hard time gauging exactly how much time is supposed to have passed between their entry into the black portal, their earlier conversation, and this moment. And as likely as some are to call this poor scene composition, I can’t think it’s anything but intentional, given we’re dealing with a couple of Ultimate Time players bullshitting with each other.

Moments like these are not rare, and serve a valuable function to the story. They are able to show a passage of time with the bulk of the emotional labor of a lengthy bonding process happening off screen. How did we get here? What have they been through? These questions are often better left open to individual interpretation and can give the one interpreting a sense of ownership of the story.

See? We’re being trolled is why. (Even if the authors are pulling the trick Alt!Callie describes maybe a little too damn often, because a cut like this where we’re supposed to fill in the emotional gaps and intervening events ourselves as readers depends on readers’ faith that sensible events and decisions for these characters would OCCUPY the gaps, as if readers don’t have faith that what intervenes WOULD make sense to their understanding of the characters the way the authors are writing them... it just seems like an excuse to do whatever you want without adequately explaining yourself, when in reality if you’d spelled out the events that led to it we’d all cry foul at the mischaracterization.)

...okay, maybe I’m a BIT bitter. Sorry. Where were we?

JADE: As a point of curiosity- ARADIA: oh shit!!!!

The dead Cherub possessing the body of an equally deceased Goddess of Space pauses at the interruption.

She doesn’t talk much, then? Too busy doing whatever talking you’d do as your other possessed Jade body? Just how temporally related is you controlling THIS Jade compared to when you were controlling the other? When that Jade pegged you as enjoying contact with friends, are these two just not enough for you, or did you “experience” the trips entirely separately? I don’t THINK the alt!Callie possessing either Jade is a separate entity from the other, but...

Were she to voice her opinion, it would be that --actually-- it is not unusual for those whose primary concern is The Grander Scheme to have a passing curiosity about the insignificant. So when one really thinks about it, any annoyance with the attendant’s small mindedness is both understandable and warranted.

She pissed

...also, “the attendant”. Even if “serve” is really the verb here, that phrasing really irks me as if she’s talking down to her. Which, I mean, makes sense for alt!Callie’s character, but doesn’t make me feel better about this new definition being foisted on us.

ARADIA: :( JADE: as a point of order, you never answered dave’s question. ARADIA: which one he is very chatty JADE: you experience time in a way that is woefully unfamiliar to me and it has... piqued my curiosity enough to learn more. ARADIA: ?_? DAVEBOT: shes asking how old you are

Wait a minute, is Alt!Callie asking a question about a dropped topic from WEEKS ago?! And is Davebot so in touch with Time and the meta ordering of topics that he actually CAUGHT ON that fast to what she was actually wondering about?????

This is getting more disorienting by the minute.

ARADIA: in this form our bodies stop aging once we reach maturity i think ARADIA: the god tier keeps our physical form locked in a state of undying ARADIA: even in death the bodies do not decay ARADIA: only lay dormant

THAT LAST PART IS FUCKING IMPORTANT. It’s being brought up intentionally to tell us that JOHN’S DEAD BODY can still be in the wallet Terezi’s carrying around RIGHT NOW without having decayed over the past years. I remember remarking in SOME previous HS^2 liveblog post of mine that I was alarmed by the decay that would have happened there (can’t find my remark on short notice and don’t really care to), so this explicitly dismisses it so we won’t be surprised by the fact that she could keep it in just-dead condition.

DAVEBOT: like how long have you been alive JADE: yes, that one.

[...]

ARADIA: oh maybe a few hundred years or so DAVEBOT: what JADE: what? ARADIA: well if i had known you were going to be so judgy about it DAVEBOT: when did this happen ARADIA: oh i spent some time in other doomed realities and timelines and came back before anybody could tell i was gone

Hm!

We knew she spent a LONG time in the dream bubbles, enough to talk to “pretty much all of the Nepetas”, but she was actually able to access a universe or universes and hop between them? That’s not something any time traveller we’ve seen has been explicitly able to do intentionally before, quite like she’s describing.

DAVEBOT: oh just out for a bit of fun then DAVEBOT: just hopped on over to a different reality DAVEBOT: real casual like DAVEBOT: oh hello dont mind me just popping in to see if it really is as doomed as they say it is DAVEBOT: did not disappoint ARADIA: yes almost exactly like that :) DAVEBOT: who did you hang out with are they cooler than me ARADIA: it is complicated to explain DAVEBOT: oh ok nevermind then DAVEBOT: all clear

Yep, he’s kinda bewildered. Is this Pesterquest stuff she’s referring to? Did she stop by Pesterquest?

DAVEBOT: a whole alternate universe ripe with the coolest motherfuckers imaginable ARADIA: you were there too i threw your air conditioner into the sun DAVEBOT: wow thats fucked up DAVEBOT: thats not where that goes at all JADE: these events are not-canonical. ARADIA: rude

Ah! Yeah, almost certainly Pesterquest. (Still haven’t played that and have little inclination to now that I’m more sure we aren’t being gaslit with intentional continuity errors, just disappointed by actual continuity errors.) Oh! And that makes a bit more sense because I imagine that’s Black Hole territory, and that territory outside of Canon seems pretty rich and easy for time-travellers to hop between stories and timelines willy-nilly. As they’re apt to in fanfics, which is the most appropriate way for things to be in that realm!

DAVEBOT: is that the trope of being hundreds of years old but looking young forever patently sucks ass DAVEBOT: a plot device an asshole would write ARADIA: :( JADE: that is not what i am trying to say at all. DAVEBOT: hmm wow yeah thatd really be a sort of pot/kettle situation i guess DAVEBOT: i cant believe im the only woke one here DAVEBOT: its hard being such a visionary AND such a fine metallic specimen DAVEBOT: but im an altruist first and fucking foremost ARADIA: so selfless JADE: yes, the greater narrative is truly blessed by your beneficent presence. DAVEBOT: oh so you got jokes now huh JADE: i have always had the ‘jokes’ of which you speak, but i have heretofore exercised restraint in laying you low. JADE: i possess knowledge of many of your iterations, as the scope of my powers allows me to exist in several narrative structures at once. DAVEBOT: but can she see why kids love the sweet cinnamon taste of cinnamon toast crunch JADE: i do not know, or care, what that means. ARADIA: neither do i :)

I’m actually really enjoying this conversation

JADE: its cultural significance to you as an earthling is wasted on the two of us entirely, as we have not conflated the misguided notion of clinging to nostalgic cereal advertisement trivia with socially relevant conversation.

Pff she literally checked her meta notes just now to learn what the cereal ads were after admitting she didn’t know what it meant and pretending not to care

> ==>

Oh, closer look at Davebot. Are those actual SHAPED shades over his robotic eye bulges? Weird, I thought it was just a lazy line drawn between them with red sharpie at first, Sans style. That would’ve been funny.

> ==>

Ohh, I get it. I was gonna say that was an unwarranted reaction... but he just realized that the Time-wait puns will be coming from BOTH his shipmates from now on. That’s gotta be a downer. :)

> ==>

HOLY

FUCKING

SHIT

IS ALT-CALLIE LAUGHING!??!?!?!??

That’s REALLY, REALLY GOOD!!! SHE’S ALREADY LAUGHING OCCASIONALLY THAT MAKES ME SO HAPPY

“BEST NARRATOR” COFFEE CUP

SHE’S ADORABLE

> ==>

Ah, was that Jade kicking you out? Or just the multiverse punishing you for being briefly happy :(

--oh, end of the update. Guess that’s it for now!

...

Alright I know I’m A BIT BEHIND on covering the HS2 commentary,

But

I really would rather wait on that a bit longer if that’s alright. Real busy and stressful week or two. (Found out my hair is starting to thin noticeably at age 31! Quite suddenly, too. Blood test looks fine so it’s nothing serious... gonna see a doctor to check if anything can be safely done about that, it’s really hurting my self-esteem more than I thought it would. Didn’t think it would hit my emotions that hard when it eventually happened, knew it was likely but not so SOON... really messing with my anxiety every time I accidentally touch my hair, now. I’ll deal with it.)

If I sound really aimless in this post, I think it’s cause I am? My mental and emotional energy’s REALLY drained. I’m glad that June/July break in HS^2 happened when it did, and I’m definitely glad there’s apparently plenty in HS^2 I can really enjoy, if this update is anything to go by. Maybe this comic can help lift me up instead of knocking me down. :)

See y’all later! More Patreon commentary blogging catchup after some other upd8.

#Homestuck #hs2 #Homestuck Liveblog #upd8 #Homestuck^2 #Homestuck Theories #Homestuck Theory #spoiler #spoilers #Classes and Aspects #Space and Time #Aradia

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meraki-sunset · 4 years

Text

The game begins with reader finishing reading the epilogues, so we know that they read all homestuck (but not homestuck2) and finally understands everything that is happening around them.

When they go to confront doc scratch they find the place full of photos on the floor and that doc is fighting with slick spades.

That means I was right in my previous theory! And Reader escapes in the middle of the altercation.

But unlike what I thought would happen, reader does not just cross the portal and warns his friends about the arrival of the meteorites that lead to the 12 trolls.

In fact at first I did not understand what happened, but giving it a little more time to think, it is kind of obvious to me what happened.

Reader got into the fenestrated window while it was turned off. So they fell into the void that exists between the windows and got themselves inside a dream bubble.

just like Roxi did when her window got disconected, she landed on Meena’s dream bubble

And within this bubble, they find the retcom juju

The dream bubbles if you remember, they generate a mixture of memories of who is inside, and the bubble where the juju was kept was a convination of places from vriska’s and caliborn’s memories (from their lands during the game)

But being alone in the bubble, arriving long before anyone else to the juju, all that reader found were smooth walls and the juju itself, not in the caliborn’s denizen box, but on the floor.

Reader recognizes the juju and puts their hand in it, but not being a character of the web comic, but from a side story the power is too much for them, and they’re sent to the beginning of homestuck, outside of John’s house on the day of apocalypse.

Later Reader says they probably found the juju by accident, making this the point in wich this timeline divides from the canon alpha timeline. We’ll have to wait and see what results from this separated reality in wich nobody ever plays the game.

We realize now by how they describe everything so vaguely and calmly, by how he does not recognize John and that he is looking to make friends again, that reader now has amnesia, and not only do they don’t remember reading homestuck (which I originaly thought would be their motivation to change the history during this game) but also does not remember their experiences in alternia during Friendsim.

So basically we are at Zero again. Reader is delighted and eager to make friends again, with the added advantage that they can travel between time and space.

This gives them the ability to alter the timeline in the process of making friends. So without even trying, they destroy the homestuck’s narrative from it’s very core, which is, they prevent the children from playing Sburb.

I always assumed that there was no escape from the game and that if the children did not play it, the meteorites would fall anyway annihilating the earth, and that the game was the only way for someone to be saved. It turns out that it’s not the case. The apocalypse can be avoided only if none of the children created in sburb starts the countdown. (because other people on earth tried to start the game but never worked)

As an extra fact John mentions that the mailmen are unstoppable when delivering mail, which reminds me of mendicant. And in addition to the theory that pawns can not go back and therefore reader can not stop or withdraw from any encounter and if they do it, that timeline is doomed (reinforcing my carapace theory)

But back to reader, they seems to have vague memories of having been elsewhere and having read homestuck, because the encounter with John seems familiar to them although they do not remember his name

they refer to the first pages of homestuck when they try to remember.

And they think they remember making many friends and having died several times, although they have no memories of anyone or anything specific. The oldest memory they can recal is right after they finished reading homestuck before leaving Doc scratch mansion.

In a timeline, reader teaches John their powers and teleports him to a week in the past, where they accidentally intercept Epilog-John doing the same, and stopping in the backyard of his old home a week before the apocalypse to regroup everyone and choose the Plan of action on Lord English.

Maybe reader knew within himself that this would happen due to their incomplete memories in which they read the epilogue, but they guided themselves by following John's suggestions so it might just be a matter of luck for them to have found Epilog-John.

When they return John has a vague existential crisis after seeing himself from the future for a moment, similar to his extensive existential crisis after winning the game and moving to the Earth c.

Maybe John is not made for this heroic future (even tho he was created for it) and will always end up having crisis, no matter to how little of his magical destiny he is exposed to.

In another timeline reader never shows their powers to John and they both just hang out in his room.

John implies that he does not have a good time with his father's cake madness, which reader worries that could be an abusive situation, but then he clarifies that everything is really fine and that he should not worry. Thing that calms reader down but still they still feel that they would be able to help someone in an abusive situation if the case ever presented to them (wich have actually done multiple times)

(Ironically, of the 4 children, John is the only one who is not in an abusive situation, contrary to the popular trope of stories involving teenagers, where the protagonist is the one in the most compromising situation which drives them to move the story forward, John actually was the only one from the group who had a loving family and stable home and lost it all on the game while the other three kids gained character development, friends, family and partners. Sad.)

Speaking with Dave, John tells him that the reader doesn't even look like a person, just something humanoid.

He mentioned that before even

So it’s finally confirmed by the kids that Reader is in fact not a human, like we all kind of suspected. (reader themselves seems to believe they are tho)

He also mentions that they are not wearing pants :/ (all this time I assumed that they did, and that Mallek had given them a pair as he had promised and that we as players simply did not notice due to the type of art in which reader is represented but, oh well. No pants. In addition, if it is a carapace, then they are a piece of chess created by cloning, no pants are needed, there is nothing to hide)

In addition Dave seems to be much less gullible than John and immediately understands that reader is not a mailman and that it’s probably their fault that John did not receive his game.

During the conversation reader scatters the things in John's treasure chest on the floor, like in homestuck (I still think they unconsciously mimic homestuck when they encounters scenarios they previously saw)

And in the end they make a tower of cakes on John's bed and it should be noted that reader is wrapped in John's sheet in the same way that the mayor did with the same sheet and in the same way that all renegade carapaces do. (which only throws more fuel on my carapace theory, with y’all probably sick of hearing by now but i stand by it o:< )

That’s all i have for John’s chapter!

(yes i know reader is confirmed not a carapace, this theory it’s old)

i already have 3 word documents with Rose, Dave and Jade’s analysis i just need to organize them. i’m planing to post all the 8 kids first and then explain the trolls for convinience here you have a link to my 3 part theory for the oncoming hiveswap game!

Part 1 of Hiveswap theory

Part 2 of Hiveswap theory

Part 3 of Hiveswap theory

Link to the HomestuckTheory hashtag on my blog where you can find more stuff

#pesterquest analyisis #Homestuck theory

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autumnblogs · 3 years

Text

Day 51: Estrangement from The Self

https://homestuck.com/story/5935

I didn’t really take Terezi’s problem with Faygo seriously the first couple times reading Homestuck, but in terms of the way that Homestuck’s different characters mirror each other, and the Trolls’ bizarre alien problems are used to directly comment on human problems, I think it makes sense to say that Terezi’s Soda Abuse should be taken exactly as seriously as Rose’s alcohol abuse.

Rose and Terezi only interact a handful of times, which is a shame, because on a certain level, they share the same basic problem; a lack of faith in the people around them combined with a crippling lack of self-worth. Though they both have strong narcissistic tendencies, Rose and Terezi display over and over again a desperate need for affirmation, and when they can’t get it from their peers, they seek it from other sources; Terezi’s manipulation by Aranea, in this sense, is parallel to Scratch’s manipulation of Rose in terms of the motivation of the one being manipulated.

More after the break.

https://homestuck.com/story/5936

(More indication that being on the God Tiers literally elevates characters to exist more on the narrative layer than they did before.)

https://homestuck.com/story/5937

In theory, I want the story to reward Dave’s newfound aloof optimism, but I think he’s still like... going too far in the other direction from where he started. We know he’s been questioning his relationship to Bro’s weird ideology, and he’s clearly less interested in being a Hero than he “should be” - but he’s still coping with his emotions mostly just by not acknowledging them.

He’s in for a rude awakening when he gets to the new session.

I should note that like, while Karkat and Dave’s friendship develops into a romance instead of into a platonic bromance after the reset, I don’t think we’re given much of an indication that their actual dynamic is all that different aside from being more physical.

https://homestuck.com/story/5944

Davesprite’s story is parallel with Dave’s, and as I’ve probably already said, forms a core part of Homestuck’s narrative about the distributed nature of the self, and the way that we can’t ever really know ourselves perfectly.

There are the literal material distributed selves like Davesprite, or sometimes Brain Ghost Dirk, or all the various versions of a character from other points along their own timeline, or from Doomed Timelines.

Anything we learn about Davesprite helps us to learn more about Dave. Anything we learn about Lil Hal helps us to learn about Dirk.

If Homestuck is about alienation, estrangement, then through characters like Davesprite, and Lil Hal, we learn that these people are not only estranged from each other by time and space, they are even estranged from themselves by the partitions in their own head, and by the way in which they are observed by other people, and form idealized versions of themselves to aspire to that they can never be. Other better versions of themselves exist in other timelines, and two different versions of a character both wish that they were the other.

Paul Tillich, a French existentialist philosopher and theologian talks about the idea of estrangement from the self as being rooted in the same problem that estranges us from others in his essay You are Accepted.

Maybe that’s another thing that I need to write about. I shall probably do so once we get to Davepeta’s talk about the Ultimate Self. (Did I already write a companion piece about it? Maybe I did.)

https://homestuck.com/story/5955

Okay; the plot has switched tracks, but the theme is very much still exactly what it was during Davesprite’s ramble. What is the significance of all of the alternate selves? In keeping with her very Dirk-like adherence to the idea that she is a certain person who is a certain way, and needs to be who she is, Vriska’s conception of all the alternate selves is that they are meaningless and have no signifiance.

I think it’s telling that we don’t really see any alternate Vriskas in this undead army.

https://homestuck.com/story/5957

While this seems extremely obvious to me anyway, it’s worth pointing out that Meenah alludes to the reason why The Condesce has latched onto Jane in pretty much exact words.

She yearns to have an Heiress, someone that she can teach her badass ways. In short, Meenah wants the same thing that Dirk wants - she wants ideological offspring!

https://homestuck.com/story/5961

I think with Andrew’s stated disdain for Worldbuilding (don’t quote me on that; I’m just pretty sure he said it once, and the fact that his villains are the characters who engage in long-winded worldbuilding screeds is suggestive of this as well), this is another way in which He is Fucking With Us.

The worldbuilding gives us symbols we can use to think about the themes the rest of the comic addresses, but broadly speaking, it’s not actually all that consequential.

https://homestuck.com/story/5966

Aranea continues to use language suggesting that she views the universe very much like a single organism - it’s an interesting quirk of hers.

https://homestuck.com/story/5982

As we come up on the conclusion of Disk 2, Aranea’s monologuing definitely recalls Scratch’s monologuing. (And of course, the journal entries from Mindfang before that).

The background information here is definitely relevant for one thing; helping us to understand the emotional background of the characters.

https://homestuck.com/story/5986

Long isolation and hardened pursuit of justice sounds like a certain mail-lady.

https://homestuck.com/story/5997

As in her initial conversation with Terezi, Aranea calls attention to the somewhat “fake” nature of Choice, and libertarian free will as it is often conceived of. It would not be in keeping with Caliborn’s character for him to choose the other option; just as it would seemingly not be in keeping with Vriska’s character for her to abandon her pursuit of power.

https://homestuck.com/story/6017

Terezi’s black and white worldview - her view of acts as good and evil, and her view of people as either good or evil - makes her completely incapable of coping with the shame of her bad decisions. Terezi doesn’t know how to forgive, or what forgiveness looks like - she does not know how to bridge the gap between herself and someone else once they are estranged. She has never been able to forgive Vriska. And she certainly can’t forgive herself. Not for getting into a relationship with Gamzee. Not for becoming addicted to Faygo. Not for repairing her vision. And certainly not for killing Vriska.

https://homestuck.com/story/6020

And Karkat brings it around again to the ongoing conversation about the ways characters are estranged from themselves.

https://homestuck.com/story/6043

Tavros’s single emotional triumph in pretty much the entire story.

He finally ditches his abusive girlfriend, and stops putting up with her.

Ironically, being tolerated in their wickedness is probably the last thing people need when they’re involved with it.

Letting Vriska keep on abusing him is a disservice to both Tavros and Vriska.

Really, it’s best for both of them.

https://homestuck.com/story/6050

Vriska continues the pattern of shit-talking herself. She always vacillates between vastly inflated self-esteem, and complete dejection.

https://homestuck.com/story/6054

Vriska’s vastly inflated ego is part and parcel of her nature as a Thief of Light I think.

Because she doesn’t just think the world of herself in the sense of stealing everyone else’s meaning and relevance.

Vriska assigns all the responsibility in the world to herself. If she doesn’t act, or if she doesn’t, as far as Vriska is concerned, everything that comes to pass, comes to pass because she wills it, at least at the moment.

Vriska Serket is a Megalomaniac of the highest order; she conflates herself with Lord English. She conflates herself with God.

Vriska is as alienated from herself as anyone is, and it’s because she thinks she understands who she truly is, and considers living up to the ideal version of herself a matter of ultimate importance.

https://homestuck.com/story/6056

Kanaya’s intervention is parallel to Dave and Karkat’s.

https://homestuck.com/story/6065

Caliborn has graduated from having nothing but complete disdain for everyone who is not himself to having some use for other people, but even his camaraderie only extends to those who prove themselves useful to him; he makes a mockery of friendship, and his attempts at civility are signifiers as empty as his life is of the possibility of genuine benevolence.

https://homestuck.com/story/6071

Meenah’s emotional theatrics are as genuinely disheartening as they are darkly hilarious because, like Dirk, and like Vriska, Meenah is a Dangerous PersonTM; she views the violence she is capable of as being intrinsic in her nature, and something she basically is incapable of resisting. Like everyone else in the story, Meenah is basically uneasy with who she is, but only a handful of characters are like Meenah in that they are basically resigned to that uneasiness. Instead of doing the things Meenah wants to do, she does the things she does not want to do.

https://homestuck.com/story/6241

So here we are at the end of Disc 2, in the same basic predicament we were at the end of Disc 1.

Everyone is miserable. Everyone’s relationships have broken down all but completely.

Everyone is estranged from each other, and everyone is estranged from themselves, and if they think a cute little reunion is going to resolve all of the emotional problems that they have failed to confront over the past three years, they’re in for a rude awakening.

More tomorrow, as we start in on the final quarter of Homestuck.

See you tomorrow; Same Cam Time, Same Cam Channel

#liveblogging #commentary #paul tillich

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silencecunt · 4 years

Text

Kankri is not a good person, nor is he a bad person. In my view, he is a wildly misunderstood character--both by the people who love him and the people who hate him. Both sides like to take only parts of his character and ignore the others that don't align with their perception of him. There is no harm in that, per say, but it does an incredible disservice to him as a character.

The Alpha trolls are, generally speaking, two-dimensional. They are caricatures of certain online groups meant to satirize those aforementioned groups. In Kankri's case, it's the SJWs of tumblr. At the time of Kankri's conception, social justice on tumblr was notorious for being outrageously PC and, hypocritically, malicious. People were threatened and "cancelled" over the stupidest of things. Naturally, this trend still exists and has spread from tumblr; however, it is not to the degree that it once was as those SJWs have now matured and created a healthier space (for the most part).

Kankri is a representation of the worst parts of those people--he is overly concerned with saying the "right" thing at all times, ignoring that words don't matter if your actions don't reflect them. Quite literally, Kankri is all talk. He lectures anyone he can about their "triggering" behavior while turning around and engaging in that same behavior when it suits him.

Therein lies the Mituna problem. Kankri is overly considerate of Latula's lack of sense of smell, Cronus's humankin, Horuss's belief he is two-spirit, etc. even when those (such as the case with Latula) don't actually care all that much. He does this because it's what he cares about and that's all that matters to him. But he doesn't care about Mituna. My interpretation is because he is jealous of him. Kankri is flushed for Latula, who is Mituna's matesprite, but Kankri doesn't think Mituna deserves to be in a relationship with Latula likely due to his cerebral trauma. A trauma he acquired after destroying himself in an ultimately futile attempt to save his friends, which is another reason Kankri is jealous of him. Much like Karkat, Kankri served as the leader of the group. Despite this, he was unable to rally the troops together due to his more passive approach in juxtaposition to Karkat's abrasive leadership style and general nature. Seeing Mituna act so boldly, doing something Kankri was unable to, was a hit to his ego. Already people don't like him and here Mituna was, making him look like even more of a useless asshole.

So, Kankri resents him. He doesn't want to care about Mituna, so he doesn't. Anger, bitterness, jealousy, whatever the case may be, he does not respect Mituna. Regardless, Kankri is Kankri. The way he speaks to him, insulting him and his entire existence, is phrased in such a manner that pins Mituna's disability as a flaw that he needs to work on. So much so, Mituna is obligated to apologize. Now, Mituna is not an innocent infantile thing that does nothing wrong and isn't a jackass himself because all trolls are jackasses. He is crude and can be inconsiderate of others. Regardless, Kankri does not approach the matter in a constructive way, seemingly almost glossing over those fair criticisms in favor of low blows.

This is something that is fundamental to Kankri's character. There are plenty of things he is right about, however he handles it in such a way that it only comes across as pretentious swill that no one wants to listen to. Alternatively, he overlooks those valid points to unjustly attack another's character. But, that doesn't mean he is always wrong.

Kankri, at his core, cares deeply and passionately. Whether or not you agree with what he concerns himself with doesn't matter because he will continue to feel the way he does with everything he has. His passion is palpable. The most notorious of which is the Beforian hemospectrum.

Under pre-scratch Feferi, culling doesn't mean killing. Rather, lowbloods are seen as incapable of taking care of themselves, so highbloods are responsible for them. Kind of like a pet. While not being killed is nice, being treated as a second--maybe even third-class citizen is still oppression. Kankri sees this and resents how their society functions. He doesn't want to be coddled and treated like he is inept because he isn't. Subscribing to how society wants him to behave would be a fate worse than death. If he cannot be independent and think for himself, doing what he thinks is best without the concern of others looming over him at every step he takes, he would rather die. These are the beliefs he held even as the Signless, although with different context. Thus, his motivation for his personal boundaries. When Porrim tells him he has grubsauce on his face and tries to clean it himself, he flips out. Porrim is high enough on the spectrum to be considered able to take care of him, and Kankri does not want any part of it. The mere thought is mortifying to him. Being touched is something that is (actually) triggering to him. He doesn't want pity, he wants respect. Even if his friends hate him and think he's annoying, at least he's being himself.

When Porrim wishes to discuss issues regarding women, Kankri doesnt want to hear it. Here is where many call him misogynistic, but I implore you to consider not applying human society onto the trolls because it doesn't make sense. Trolls are a matriarchal society, what with the empress being in total control. And, so far as we know, it has always been an empress. We don't know just how much gender affects things considering the hemospectrum plays such a large role in how everyone falls in society. My interpretation is that gender is nowhere near as big of a deal as it is with humans. Even if it were, between fusciabloods being primarily female and rulers, and jadebloods also primarily female and nurturing the Mothergrub (aka how all trolls are born), I don't feel it's too far a stretch to say that the women of trollian society are not oppressed. I don't believe the men are oppressed either because I feel that gender isn't much of a consideration for trolls, but that is just my interpretation.

That being said, Porrim expresses her concern that their matriarchal society was a false one operating under Lord English, ergo making it patriarchal in nature. Kankri does not share that view, feeling that it's a non-starter. In his view, Lord English's actions truly had no effect in that regard. Why would a time traveling demon set on destroying everything worry about frivolous details such as ensuring women are beaten down? In Kankri's eyes, it's stupid to assume he would even bother.

Regarding Kankri's celibacy, it's another example of Kankri merely trying to keep his chin high in the air and feel as if he is better than everyone else. His intellect is too high to concern himself with the oppressive nature the quadrants come with. It seems too much like another means to be controlled. However, his commitment to it is...questionable. Porrim and him are essentially moirails in everything but the name due to Kankri's pride. Not to mention, his flushcrush on Latula. If he were truly committed to his Vow, he would not pursue this crush as much as he does. All Latula has to do is say the word and Kankri would drop his celibacy like a hot potato. Again, another example of how he is willing to say the "right" things, but his actions do not reflect that. This hypocrisy is one of Kankri's defining traits. He simply cannot put his money where his mouth is despite the mountain of effort he puts into convincing everyone how serious he is.

As someone who admires social justice, he doesn't care for the Signless. His official reasoning is in regards to a difference in approach. While the Signless's rebellion reflects the violent society of Alternia, Kankri expresses how he feels a more peaceful method would have been better, a reflection of the peaceful society he was raised in. He feels that words hold more power than violence, something those baser than him resort to.

Perhaps this is due to the tenderness I hold for him, but I think the reasoning runs deeper than that. All of his friends liked hearing about the Signless, Aranea in particular. So much so that she wears his symbol around her neck. This is something that clearly bothers Kankri, but is it really just over a difference in opinions? At the end of the day, the Signless is Kankri. My theory is because everyone likes his post-scratch self better than they like him. The people who he considers his friends, who he trusts to return when they leave mid-sermon, who he tried to lead and protect can't stand him, referring to him as the Insufferable. Wouldn't that hurt you, too? He knows he's long-winded, he knows he preachy, he knows people find him irritating, he knows. Naturally, Kankri doesn't let it show, but he wants his friends to like him. The only person who (kind of) listens to him and actually treats him with respect is the crowned worst character of homestuck, Cronus. It affects him to hear how much others admire the deeds of someone who is him when, in truth, he is not really that person.

Many of the core traits in Karkat exist in Kankri. They are both drawn to leadership, drawn to helping their friends, short-tempered, and emotional. Kankri says a multitude of harsh things, things that are much crueler than the what Karkat says, and it's important to acknowledge Kankri's cruelty. That doesn't detract from the fact that Kankri does care for others, even if his feelings towards them are less than pleasant, because that's who the Vantases are. They are deeply flawed and oftentimes foul-mouthed people, and yet, at the end of the day, they still care fiercely. Kankri is not some disinterested, detached critic. He is just as much a part of the group as the others and he wants what is best for them. If he didn't care, he wouldn't bother lecturing. No matter how annoying and egocentric you are, no one likes to waste their time.

At the end of the day, Kankri is not a perfect person. Far from it. But he's endearing and he's relatable and he's flawed. None of the trolls are good people. They are all assholes who say fucked up things. They use the r-slur, they make fun of Tavros for his wheelchair, Meenah is elated that her post-scratch self commits genocide on the regular, Vriska. Just Vriska. A lot of the hate I see regarding Kankri reduces him to a soulless monster who's only goal is to insult and talk down to everyone in his way. A lot of the admiration I see boils him down to an uwu sweet innocent blushy baby when that is the furthest thing from the truth. He's a snarky bastard who gives a fuck about his friends, even if they spit in his face because he spits right back. Please respect his depth, even if you interpret things differently from how I did. He is not as flat as many make him out to be. No one in homestuck is.

#homestuck #kankri vantas #i just.....love him so much #he makes me lose my mind #i am in no way saying this is the definitive interpretation of him #just how i view him #but i am a genius and perfect and always 100% right so :/#take that as u will

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onionsan · 4 years

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I was reading your deltarune theory related posts, and I was wondering if you could please elaborate on this: "But if Deltarune and Undertale are like how Homestuck timelines are. Undertale could basically be the equivalent of a post-scratch universe " I've never played homestuck, so I wasn't sure what you meant by this, could you please explain! thanks

Oh yeah!!! I was meaning to do that anyways.

So in Homestuck, there are multiple universes, and multiple timelines of those universes. In Homestuck there is a very dangerous game that causes the end of the world when you play it, but when you are successful, it creates a NEW world.

The universes technically go [Alpha Trolls] -> [Beta Troll] -> [Beta Kids] -> [Alpha Kids], with the previous universe being responsible for the next one. Now, it's been probably 3 years since I last read Homestuck, and this is going to sound messy. But the Alpha/Beta groups are both the genetic ancestors AND descendants of each other (they use the term dancestors for this), because all the Alpha and Beta kids/trolls were made with the use of ectobiology, and they are genetically their own grandparents and grandchildren because of this cycle.

What my current theory is: is that Deltarune exists in a space BEFORE Undertale (we will call this DR v.1). And that by progressing the game, The Fun Gang will either be directly responsible for creating a new universe, or will try and prevent this from happening and fail.

This is where UT v.1 starts, this is different from Undertale (2015), because this is where Gaster still exists. UT v.1 is where Gaster makes the core, and falls in, causing him to scatter across all of time and space (which if I remember correctly, is the literal dialogue from one of the assistants), which results in UT v2 (aka Undertale 2015).

This is where it gets....a little complicated. Deltarune 2018 was VERY clearly designed to be played by people who already played Undertale 2015. There are text options that directly ask characters questions they would only know if they were in Undertale, these arent little Easter eggs, they're EVERYWHERE when you talk to NPCs on the surface world. As much as I love Deltarune, I always tell people they need to play Undertale first for it to make sense. Not because DR is a sequel, but because there is so much meta content that doesnt make sense in chapter 1 if you havent played it before.

But what this means, is that the player has a way to move between these two worlds in a way NPCs cant. Which is why I firmly believe Deltarune 2018 is DR v2. And We will not see a proper DR Gaster, because the cores effected all of TIME and SPACE (which if you ask me, that would include parallel universes. Out of all the fun values, there is not a single, SINGLE time you are able to meet a version of Gaster that didnt have the accident, because he no longer exists).

But because DR!Gaster does not exist in v2 the same way as v1 did, this could effect the timeline in so many ways, because we do not know how much Gaster was originally involved. So instead of DR v2 making UT v1 or even UT v2, DR v2 will end up making an Undertale v3 (no I dont think toby will make a new game for v3, it'll likely just be implied depending on what the player is able to do right vs wrong in their playthrough).

But because of Gaster falling into the core, the timelines are unbalanced, and are going to be trying to correct themselves, maybe Undetale V3 will be stable and okay. But Gasters accident could keep echoing and echoing, causing DR v3, 4, 7, 20, etc. And the same for the UT timelines, because there is always going to be new rules and circumstances that they will be working with, basically: Gaster never existed, but the universe knows he is missing.

Deltarune 2018 may end up exploring this, and our goal in later chapter may be to team up with Sans and fix this (since in Undertale he is said to already be observing timeline anomalies, no regular person would start that without reason).

God, I honestly am looking forward to the later chapters. Even if I'm wrong, I want to see how much they talk about the similarities between the two worlds

#deltarune theory #deltarune #mxd text #undertale theory #gaster #anon #long post

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ardenttheories · 4 years

Text

I found this post in my drafts, and I decided to finish it up. It’s fairly old, based on some old posts I saw, but I still think it’s important - on the off chance that this is still something that’s going around, and because I’m still a little bitter about it.

There is something inherently wrong about the idea that Hope is an Aspect of sexuality (as in “being sexual”, not of figuring out who you’re sexually attracted to) and sensuality. About the concept that all Hope Players are heavily inbued with this concept of sex, sex appeal, and sexual awakening, because some of the interactions we’ve seen with Hope Players were centred around these things.

If we were to focus on that as a defining factor of Hope, then we'd have to say Time is heavily influenced by Relationships (Dave is the first character in Homestuck to say he loves anyone; Aradia is the only Beta troll in a redrom relationship prior to the game; Damara has been in several ongoing relationships during her introduction, and is actively persuing someone as her main character motivation).

This has no baring on their Classpect. These events, while interesting, are not any part of their abilities as Time players - especially not in the same way that Heart is intrinsically connected with relationships.

Another issue is that Hope's connections to sexuality... are hardly positive. Cronus frequently attempts to insert himself forcefully into people's quadrants. Eridan is hardly connected to sexuality at all; his main focus is the romance of redrom, not the bucket filling. Jake faces frequent unwanted sexual attention/advances, and has a very ambiguous sexual (and romantic) stance - which is only worsened in the Epilogues and Homestuck^2, now knowing that he is likely a victim of sexual abuse/assault.

To say that a crude or sexually open nature means a character must be a Hope player is also flawed; Porrim, a Space player, is one of the most open of all characters, followed quickly by Damara. Even Caliborn has a note of sexuality - in his weird kink art he requests from Dirk - but that does not make him a Hope player, either.

All of these situations can be easily explained away, also. For instance, Caliborn’s oddly sexual components are to show his immaturity; that he’s putting someone else in an uncomfortable position because he thinks it’s his right, that he’s pointing out these sexual things about other people (usually woman, and most often Jane) to try and knock them down. Damara and Porrim are just slightly older women who have had time to figure out who they are, and have made the decision that their presentations are what make them comfortable. They can be sensual and sexual because... that’s just what they decided they liked. It doesn’t go much deeper than that.

There is no reason to include sexuality as a specifically Hope thing - especially since it completey deprives other Aspected players of this trait. So, we just assume that Hope players are nymphomaniacs or Sex Icons? And that all other players are boring, straight, and uninterested?

It doesn't have an accurate dichotomy. We can’t completely erase the potential for other Players to be associated with these things.

To suggest that sexuality or sensuality has a baring on the Hope aspect also makes it a very uncomfortable one to be classpected as. Imagine knowing that your aspect is the Sex Aspect. That forces an unwanted mentality on everything you do, particularly when combined with the knowledge that most of the Hope Players we see are victims of or enact unwanted sexual advances. It just isn't healthy.

I could compare this to Heart as the Romance Aspect, but at least some of that is about other people. It’s about understanding who you are, who they are, and figuring out who best complements them. If you, specifically, aren’t invested in Relationships, at least Heart isn’t seen as “the Aspect where people fling themselves into relationships and mack on people a lot”. If anything, it’s... the complete opposite. We know a lot of Heart Players suck at their own Romance, and that they just tend to have a very good grasp on what people want.

It’s also not quite comparable, since it’s not the concept of Heart being the only Aspect that has Romance at its core - that to be in a Relationship, to be a Romantically available person, is a wholly Heart thing. Nobody could look at Heart and say “these are the only Players we could ever associate with Romance, Romantic attraction, and Romantic promiscuity”. As Classpectors, we actively shy away from this definition, because it just isn’t viable. It would mean every other Aspect is inacapble of Love, would completely deny that possibility to anyone else.

It would mean we’d have to Classpect anyone with any inkling towards Romance and Romantic Endeavours as Heart - and wouldn’t that just completely ruin our understanding of Karkat, a Blood Player, who is so fervently in the know of Quadrants? Or of Jade, a Space Player, who has opened up about who she is and what she likes, and is persuing multiple quick relationships in the Epilogues, and who questionably has the most trolls interested in her throughout Homestuck?

I think, furthermore, that it ignores a very important fact of Homestuck. Literally every Player, as we first see them, is a minor. They start at 13, and we see them on their journey to adulthood, with the session ending when they are 18.

Of course the Players are going to have some focus on sex? It’s the same reason why there’s such a focus on relationships. They’re kids figuring out who they are and what they like. They’re going through puberty. Nobody turns 18 and then suddenly decides what they like and what they don’t like. It’s an ongoing process, a growth, that everyone goes through. It’s something that not a lot of us even have defined by the time we are 18.

The way people look at Jake’s body - the focus on his butt, for instance - isn’t an indication that Jake, as a Hope Player, is inherently associated with sexuality and sensuality. It’s just evidence that a bunch of 16 year olds pumped full of hormones saw the best goddamn but they’ve ever seen. It’s an ongoing joke of “people who seem dumb but are actually hot as hell”.

I think, too, there’s this issue with... what are you supposed to learn from it? Why is being sexual or sensual important to a person’s growth - in the same way that having Freedom or having Bonds, or having Desires and Restrictions is? How are you going to be an inherently better person through sexuality and sensuality? How are these things going to make you the best you? And why is this associated with Hope - how do these things intertwine with your Belief, your go-getter personality, your Positivity?

To associate sexuality and sensuality solely with Hope does not work. Even with evidence in the comic, and in the Homestuck extended universe, it brings up too many complications with other Players, with canonical events, and ignores too much about the general race to adulthood that Homestuck’s actually about. There’s too negative a mentality about it, and when we place that on real people, people who are trying to figure out their Aspects, it can get so unhealthy so quickly.

As I said before, I don’t know if this is something we still see in the Classpect community - it’s been a while since I’ve seen posts about this, thank god - but just in case, it’s probably good to say.

#ardenttheories out of theory #long post//

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