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cappymightwrite · 8 months

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An Unexpected Norse Detail in Winterfell

I was scrolling through tumblr yesterday, as you do, and suddenly paused on a gifset of the Lannister party in Winterfell during the early episodes of season 1. What caught my eye was this:

Behind the long table in Winterfell's great hall is some kind of large wooden screen/divider featuring some very interesting carvings. These carvings are near identical to those found on the Urnes Stave Church in western Norway, which dates from the 12th century:

I don't think we ever see this wooden screen in Winterfell again, but it's an interesting inclusion nonetheless, back when the show stuck more closely to the source material.

In The Vikings (Penguin, revised edition, 2016) Else Roesdahl talks a bit about this particular style of ornamentation:

The Urnes style is the last phase of the long development of Scandinavian animal ornament. This seems to have developed shortly before the middle of the eleventh century and was popular for nearly a century, that is into the early Middle Ages. After a final phase where it gave rise to details and influences in Romanesque art, now predominant in Scandinavia, it had died out completely before the year 1200. Many other forms of Viking Age followed the same course. The vigour and vitality of the Ringerike style gave way to this sophisticated, elegant, indeed almost decadent, style. It is named after the exquisite wood carvings that were re-used in Urnes Church in western Norway: a portal and a door, two wall planks, a corner post and two gable ends, one complete [...] The large, four-legged animal is still one of the main motifs, but it has become as slim as a greyhound. Snake-like animals with one foreleg, snakes and thin tendrils sometimes ending in a snake's head are also featured. The designs characteristic of this style form open, asymetric patterns, creating an impression of an undulating interweaving of animals and snakes. The large loops are often figures-of-eight and the shapes grow and diminish evenly; there are no abrupt transitions. The style is also used with virtuosity on brooches and on large numbers of rune stones in central Sweden, where the undulating ornament follows the shape of the stone and the long bodies of the snakes are used as rune bands [...] Several examples of the style have been found in England, and in Ireland it became as popular as the Ringerike style.

What's so intriguing about the original carving though is that it is depicting pagan symbolism... but on a Christian church. As mentioned above, the Ringerike style predate Urnes and was "roughly contemporary with the intial spread within Scandinavia of Christianity, and was the first to contain Christian iconography, although pagan symbolism was still present," notes Philip Parker (The Northmen's Fury, Vintage, 2014). By around 1050, it gave way to the Urnes style, named for the stave church shown above.

But what do these carvings mean? In Tree of Salvation: Yggdrasil and the Cross in the North (Oxford University Press, 2013), G. Ronald Murphy offers this explanation:

The door is simply surrounded with whorls of writhing snakes and vines. The tangle is so perfectly executed in a welter of animal elongation and plant reduction to vines, that it is difficult to identify where a head begins or where a tail finally ends, if at all, or to trace what seems like a joint to a neck or a leg or a vine. The main point seems to be the inter-twined-ness itself of all living things, animal or vegetable, in one huge tangle [...] Now as one looks at the left side of the doorway there is one animal standing on four legs [see above!] that is simply startling in the clarity of its depiction. It has been called a lion and explained as the Lion of Judah (Christ) fighting with evil. I think that such an interpretation makes the mistake of using an inappropriately biblical explanation when the artist, by his very Viking-like pictorial style as well as his tangle of animal and plants, tells you he is here using a Germanic one. If you look at the animal you can see that he is eating at the vine or branch which in turn is a serpent biting at him in the neck. Look at the animal's head and you can see two small horns protruding—that animal is a young male deer, a hart. Now it becomes clear it is not the Old Testament that is giving the context here for the meaning of the portal: this is an allusion to the Elder Edda and its description of Yggsdrasill as the suffering tree with many serpents forever biting on its twigs and branches, as those twigs and branches are also being devoured by a hart. The traditiona of the single deer may also come from a previous stanza in the Grímnismál where the hart is named: Eikþyrnir [Oak-thorn] is the hart's name, who stands on Father of Hosts' hall and grazes Læraðr's [kenning for Yggdrasill] branches; and from his horns liquid drips into Hvergelmir [seething cauldron], from thence all waters have their flowing (Poetic Edda 55 and 270n)

According to Murphy, "to enter the door of the Urnes stave church is to enter Yggdrasill." So, to bring this back to the world of asoiaf, it´s an interesting piece of set design to include this screen or divider in Winterfell, a place closely connected with the "old gods" of the north and that has its own world tree, in a sense: the weirwood tree, or heart tree, of the godswood. Moreover, beneath one of Yggdrasill's three large roots is the spring Hvergelmir (mentioned above, meaning 'seething cauldron'), beneath another is Mímisbrunnr ('Mímir's well) and beneath the third is Urðarbrunnr ('Well of Urðr'), this is interesting to note in parallel to the hots springs and ice-lidded pool in Winterfell's godswood, close to its heart tree.

In the Prose Edda, one of our foremost sources on Norse mythology, Yggsdrasill is also connected with Ragnarök, the doom of the gods. In chapter 54, it is told that Óðinn will ride to the well Mímisbrunnr and consult Mímir on behalf of himself and his people. After this, "the ash Yggdrasill will shake and nothing will be unafraid in heaven or on earth," and then the Æsir and Einherjar will don their war gear and advance to the field of Vígríðr. In asoiaf, the north has its own legend very reminiscent of Ragnarök, called the Long Night and I've written about their similiarities before and keep meaning to return to that.

Anyway, I just think it's pretty cool they included that detail of the Urnes style screen in Winterfell — I'm always putting Norse details into my fics wherever I can, most recently the Oseberg tapestry.

#cappy's thoughts #yggdrasil and the heart tree #winterfell #historial influences in got and asoiaf #asoiaf and norse mythology #IT IS THE SAME DESIGN i can't believe i never noticed it before?

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thesadboy · 1 year

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The Freedwomen AU

Children of Elia

Children of Lyanna

Children of Rhaella Targaryen

In an AU where Rhaegar still dies at the Trident, but the women he had hurt survive and thrive...

Ser Bonifer Hasty arrives on a cog ship disguised as a merchant just as Rhaella is evacuated to Dragonstone. After a tense duel with Ser Willem Darry that ends in a draw, Bonifer convinces the Kingsguard to have the queen and her son flee elsewhere since he doubts that the loyalist forces would win and the safety of the family would be ensured. So under the cover of night and using the chaos of war as a distraction, a pregnant Rhaella leaves Dragonstone with Bonifer, Willem, and Viserys. The voyage is a tiring one, with Rhaella even giving birth at sea. After wandering around Pentos, they settle in Lys where surprisingly, they discover that an offshoot branch of House Targaryen going by the name “Brightfyre” and headed by her parents’ kindly cousin Maegor, son of Aerion “Brightflame” Targaryen, has settled down. With a life away from the dysfunction of the Iron Throne and Royal Court, Rhaella finally gets to live in peace with those she loves in the company of relatives who while distant in blood, become close to her in bond.

Viserys Targaryen Duncan Brightfyre

“Duncan of the Walls”

“Serry”

-Initially, before they settled down in Lys with the Brightfyres, he and his mother and sister had all their hair cut off to help hide their identity. He initially greatly disliked it, complaining all the while as Ser Willem cut his hair. When his hair started growing back though, he found that he liked how it looked while it was short and since then, has kept it closely cut both for practicality and style.

-Renamed specifically after his great-grandfather’s best friend, since Rhaella had some resentment over her uncle Duncan. At first, he hated going by a “peasant” name instead of a Valyrian one but over time, listening to stories about Ser Duncan’s adventures made him warm up to the idea and look up to him instead of Rhaegar. Now, he’s proud to carry the same name as a man who was noble not in blood, but in character.

-Often dresses himself in blues to make his eyes seem blue, hoping it would help hide his identity. Whenever he and his family receive word of Westerosi visiting Lys, he makes sure to dye his hair blue or red.

-Protective over his mother, given that he’s been the one who had to see her try to hide her pain and stay strong for a long time. Because of this, he often does his best to make her happy and lavishes her with gifts

-Trained under Ser Willem Darry and Ser Bonifer Hasty in the Westerosi style of swordfighting. His mother’s second cousin Maekar Brightfyre, son of Maegor Brightfyre, is the one who taught him some more underhanded tactics and Essosi styles of swordfighting.

-Knows High Valyrian, both the dialect taught to his mother, and the one used in Lys.

-Dislikes Lyanna Stark, unaware that she was captured and unwilling, since he thought that she deliberately ran off with Rhaegar and thus started the war that endangered his family

-Misses Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon. He remembers how Elia was like a second mother to him and nothing but kind and gracious like Rhaella, while Rhaenys was his best friend and seeing Aegon would light up his day. He doesn’t know that they’re still alive.

-Given how he adored them at first, he was initially in denial over both Aerys and Rhaegar’s madness, believing that the two were the pinnacle of Valyrian greatness. It took lots of growing up and hard but necessary lessons from Rhaella, Ser Darry, and Maegor for him to learn to view them in a less biased way. Now, he knows that those two had caused problems for their family and has grown past blindly idolising them.

-While he seemed to have the capacity for the same brand of madness as Aerys, being raised in a loving and less toxic environment by relatives who’ve discarded teachings of Targaryen Exceptionalism has curbed Aerys’ influence on him and he’s matured much more now.

-Became rather skilled at both Westerosi and Essosi styles of swordfighting, which got him recognized by the sellsword company that had a contract with Lys to guard the walls. This landed him a position as a Lyseni guard, which is where he mainly earns coin and the title of “Duncan of the Walls.”

-While he admittedly tends to be arrogant and a bit cocky, it never goes to the point that he’s outright delusional. He’s a man who just happens to know his strengths very well and is proud of them.

-In private, when he’s among family, he’s referred to by his birth name.

-Had a slight hedonistic streak when he was a teenager, frequently indulging himself in wine, women, and fighting. Though Rhaella and Bonifer’s influence would help him mature over time and he has mellowed down as he grew.

-Even though he’s learnt to see past the supposed exceptionalism and inherent superiority often taught to those of House Targaryen, his wonder and amazement at dragons still remains. The difference being is that he’s more interested in learning about how they are in the wild and as creatures instead of wielding them as weapons.

-At first, he saw Ser Bonifer as beneath him and undeserving of his mother because of his low birth, stating that he would “taint” his mother. After he was reconditioned to no longer believe in Targaryen Exceptionalism, he saw Bonifer as undeserving of his mother, but this time because he felt that every man interested in Rhaella in that way would only hurt her. After he grew to warm up to the landed knight though, he would begrudgingly grow to accept their rekindled romance and while he wouldn’t admit it, he sees Bonifer as the father that he and Dany should’ve had.

-His first love was his distant cousin Saela, who comes from a branch of House Brightfyre descended from Saera. Though nothing came of it since he was ten and she was twenty three at that time. Rhaella had also discouraged a match between the two due to preferring that her children married or became parents when they were at least eighteen, and wishing that if ever they had children of their own, it would be with someone wholly unrelated to the Targaryens.

-While he never married, he did find a paramour in a half-Yi Tish woman named Min Malagos whose father was Marrous Malagos, a Pentoshi magister. The two met while Min and Marrous were visiting a Lyseni magister the latter was friends with, Viserys being eighteen while Min was twenty one at that time. They shared a few jokes and bonded over a love for wine and dragons and had kept correspondence with each other that lead to them building a friendship, which was helped by Marrous paying frequent visits to his Lyseni friend. Eventually, the two became lovers and Min would come to live with Viserys and his family in Lys after the death of her father.

-After he and Min officially started their relationship, he got a tattoo of a Yi Tish dragon on his sword arm, while Min got a tattoo of a Targaryen dragon on her back.

-He and Min would have a daughter then a son. Both go by two names, Viserra Brightfyre and Ming Malagos for the daughter, and Dunkos Brightfyre and Marlon Malagos for the son

Daenerys Targaryen Dany Brightfyre

“Dany of Lys”

“Daenerys Seaborn”

-Being the last child she could ever bear, Rhaella was scared that she’d lose her. For the first few moons of Dany’s life, Rhaella could only sleep peacefully if she was in the same room. As she grew up though, Rhaella would loosen up and wasn’t as paranoid, wanting her to have the freedom in her life that she never had.

-Was born while Rhaella and company were en route to Essos. Bonifer had been the one to help Rhaella with the delivery, as he had prior experience working with midwives in helping smallfolk women give birth. The experience is how she had gotten the title “Daenerys Seaborn”

-Loves reading about and drawing dragons, her room is filled with different sketches and paintings of some depictions of dragons

-Doesn’t actually like keeping her hair short, wanting to style it in different ways, but she does so to make it easier to hide her identity if ever any Westerosi visits Lys

-Unaware that she’s the product of incest since from her point of view, Bonifer has always been her father and no one has really wanted to argue with her about it. Viserys did initially try to tell her, but since the thought of a brother and sister together was “gross” for her, she thought he was just being mean.

-Maintains her own lemon garden at the back of Brightfyre keep and personally harvests them when they're ready

-Initially, she admired and looked up to Old Valyria and various Targaryens of old, especially Aegon the Conqueror. However, Rhaella and Maegor would tell her of their former House’s follies and arrogance, as well as the destruction they brought about. So over time, she grew to view her ancestors in a less biased light.

-Aside from the Common Tongue, she knows High Valyrian, Dothraki, and some Naathi. Unlike her brother and mother, when she speaks Westerosi, it’s tinged with a Lyseni accent

-Adores Maegor, who she calls ”Uncle Maegy,” and loves listening to his stories about his grandparents and great-grandparents. It’s through him that she really learns to view House Targaryen in a more grounded way. She also grew fond of listening to stories about his grandfather Rhaegel, seeing him beyond the image of a foolish and mad prince.

-Often bickers with her sister Jenny since they find each other annoying, but at the end of the day they still do care for each other, albeit in a “no one picks on her but me” kind of way.

-She’s best friends with her cousin Maegor’s adoptive daughters: Missandei, Doreah, Irri, and Jhiqui. The five of them are often seen together and are inseparable to the point that it’s not uncommon for Rhaella or Maegor to find the girls all fast asleep in a huge pile in one of their chambers.

-Has lots of pet cats, half of them being strays she found and brought home. Some of their names are: Meleys, Meraxes, Moondancer, Rhaegon, Viserion, Drogon, and Lemmy. Maekar has joked that their Rogarre ancestor Larra must be blessing her from the afterlife with companions.

-She would later fall in love with Drogo (who is much closer in age to her here), the former khalakka of a khalasar who left after he decided he wanted to go on his own, having been one of the sellswords guarding Lys’ walls. The two would marry in a Dothraki ceremony when Dany had turned twenty, with Drogo at twenty three. They would later have a son named Rhaego, named after Rhaella and Rhaegel.

Helena Brightfyre

“Helly”

“Lena Brighteyes”

“Haelor of Lys”

-An orphaned Pentoshi girl who ran away from her neglectful father who was a wealthy winemaker. She was taken in by Bonifer after she unsuccessfully tried to pickpocket him and Rhaella happily welcomed the girl as one of her own

-When she was adopted, her situation may have improved but it wasn’t exactly a smooth integration. Ser Willem protested it, saying she’d be “another mouth to feed.” Viserys found her to be “irritating and insipid.” Dany meanwhile, was jealous that she wouldn’t be the baby. Over time, all three of them grew to love her too though, but she won’t let them live down these reasons. Especially Ser Willem.

-She’s close to Bonifer, being ever grateful that the man took her in out of the goodness of his heart. Bonifer for his part, showers her with affection and often does his best to remind her that she too, is family.

-Is Dany’s age, albeit a moon younger, which Dany likes to use as a reason why she should “always listen to her”

-Named after the Queen Consort of the Greens, someone Rhaella often would find herself connecting with despite the fact that she wasn’t a direct ancestor. Rhaella felt that Helaena should’ve still been honored in some way. She did have a name given to her by her father but after he stopped caring about her, she discarded it.

-Likes making some rather tall tales, usually to scare Dany. It hasn’t fully gone away after she’s grown into a young woman but this time, she uses her imagination to write various stories, which have given her some coin. She writes her stories under the pen name “Haelor of Lys,” pretending to be a man when she writes.

-Her hair is naturally red but due to it being the one thing she inherited from her father, she prefers to dye it pink the way her late mother did

-Doesn’t quite understand different parts of Westerosi customs and traditions, finding the concept of chivalry and knighthood in particular, to be a bit funny

-Is allergic to lemons, something that Dany sometimes can’t quite believe

-Often makes trips into Lys’ market with Saela, Irri, and Jhiqui to buy some food for Brightfyre keep. Because of this, the commonborn Lyseni are quite familiar and friendly with her. She’s particularly known for making witty quips and jests and entertaining the commonborn children with her tall tales. Due to this, she’s been affectionately called “Lena Brighteyes” by the commonborn

-Her mother is a topic she doesn’t want to talk about often, since she was a former bedslave to Helena’s father and stayed with him after being freed since she was still conditioned to see the man as her master. Because of this, Helena is absolutely disgusted with her father and doubts that for all his claims of it being true, didn’t actually love her mother.

-While she and Bethany are as thick as thieves and she does love Dany, her relationship with Viserys is probably the most strained one she has with a sibling. This is because he had once said something extremely hurtful and never apologised nor remembered it. What exactly he said is unknown to everyone but her.

-She met a sellsword known as “Serkhon of Lys” during one of her trips to the markets and the two would strike up a friendship, often writing to each other. Eventually, Serkhon would ask Rhaella and Bonnifer for their blessing to marry her, and the two happily agreed. The two would have a daughter named Elaena.

Bethany Brightfyre

“Bethany the Silent”

“The Wellflower”

“Bethany Flowers” “Bethy”

-The orphaned daughter of two bastards, her mother being a Dornish sellsword named Maria Sand who was contracted to Lys and her Lyseni paramour who formerly worked in a pillowhouse. It’s unknown how her parents died, since she’s tight-lipped on the topic and it's still a sore spot for her. What she would talk about regarding her parents does show that they were the best any child could ask for, which made their deaths hurt all the more for her.

-Rhaella discovered her by a well trying to sell some “cloth flowers” and taking pity on the girl, took her under her wing.

-Often quiet and as such, easily fades into the background, Bonifer suspects that her demeanor could be connected to her parents’ deaths. As such, most people would assume that this means she can easily be pushed around but make no mistake, she doesn't’ take insults to her or her loved ones lying down.

-She has quite a fascination with flowers,knowing lots of different species and facts about them, along with often making them in different arts and crafts. Because of this, there came a joke e from Ser Darry about how the bastard name “Flowers” would fit her better than “Sand.” As such, she’s sometimes known as “Bethany Flowers”

-Believe it or not, she was the first who got Viserys to stop being less of a brat, since he had a soft spot for her...and because she slapped him during one of his tantrums when they were little and now he’s honestly scared of her sometimes.

-Very close to Helena, seeing as the two of them found common ground from being “outsiders” of a sort from Rhaella’s group and from the Brightfyres, along with how both of them lost a loved one. Though Helena would admit that she’s a bit envious that Beth had a loving father.

-Part of the reason Rhaella decided to adopt her was that her name and dark hair reminded the former queen of her beloved grandmother, something Bethany herself has picked up on over the years.

-Honestly does not know what to do with children, put a baby in her arms and she will feel awkward.

-Fond of riddles, expect her to jump at the chance to solve one whenever she can.

-She picked up on the Common Tongue faster than Helena did, her teasing her sister over it is one of the few times others witness her joking side. On the other hand, she honestly has difficulty picking up on the Lyseni dialect of High Valyrian.

-The whole culture and idea of bastardy is something she doesn’t quite fully understand nor get behind, due to her parents’ influence. If it was up to her, every bastard would be loved, since she would seriously make it a law.

-Quite skilled at embroidering and sewing. Greyworm, Maegor’s adopted son, and Rhaegel, Maegor’s son from his second marriage, both came up to her asking her to teach them how to sew. She agreed and patiently taught the two boys and over time, the three became close.

-Eventually grew to romantically love Rhaegel Brightfyre and the two would marry, though they both decided they didn’t really want any children, content with each other.

#mine own postsss #dexreads asoiaf #dexwatches got #asoiaf oc #asoiaf au #the freedwomen au #viserys targaryen iii #prince viserys #daenerys targaryen #viserys targaryen #daenerys targaryen iii #after all she's been through rhaella can have her hot girl summer #as a treat #I like to think that there do live other targ descendants elsewhere in planetos #but since they aren't corrupted by a desire for the iron throne and general targ toxicity with the exceptionalism bullshit #they get to have actually healthy family dynamics #call me crazy but I just want people from a toxic family get to live and thrive once they're cut off from the toxic influence #also maegor reclaimed the brightflame title his scary ass dad got and made it his own to mean something else #I also originally wanted helena and bethany to be rhaella's bio kids with bonifer #but given her pregnancy history I don't think she'd want to go through the strain of childbearing once again #and given how she was let down by her bio family I like to think that she adopted the idea that family isn't always dictated by blood #oc: bethany brightfyre #oc: helena brightfyre

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brother-emperors · 6 months

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I adore how you manage to tickle these very intimate emotional moments from tiny detached throw-away sentences describing historical events. You're a master at filling in the deeply human blanks of history. I hope to one day be as good as you are at extrapolating emotion and nuance and momentary life from the often very broad strokes history is written with.

a couple years ago, I got ahold of M. L. Clarke's The Noblest Roman: Marcus Brutus and his Repuptation, and the way the book closes rewired something forever in my heart

it shifted my focus from being a spectacle enjoyer to wanting to sit around these figures like machiavelli writes about doing and ask them questions and see what reply is given, which also made the political spectacle more interesting

and a huge part of it is that one of my favorite genres is romance, and erotica is fun too. its a genre that is character heavy and reliant on intimacy and I LOVE character driven narratives. my favorite kind of stuff from my other two beloved genres, horror and mystery, tend to be focused on character moments, driven by internal and external arcs (OCN's the Guest, you'll always be number one in my heart forever and ever).

even though I'm doing circus stuff with historical figures, the fiction aspect of it is HEAVILY influenced by those genres because that's a lot of what I read and also enjoy writing. I'll never be good at writing dense political fiction spanning across a huge world (the thought of attempting anything on the world building scale of ASoIaF makes my brain hurt, and Im also not interested in doing that), but my god will I pick a guy and spend months in his ribcage imagining situations and wondering what he liked to eat for breakfast.

this was!!! really nice to read!!!!! thank you so so much, anon

#ALSO I AM ROOTING FOR YOU! i hope that you have fun and find joy in creating narratives!!!#the journey getting to where you want to be is the most fun part #im constantly in awe of Priest and every time i re read one of their novels im like. GOD. that's where i want to BE #ask tag

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15-lizards · 1 year

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Hi! I love your redesigns for ASOIAF houses and the snippets of their house’s fashion history. I wrote a ton of fashion history papers in college so it warms my heart with your posts. 💚💛💚 (green hearts for Meera Reed)

What do you think House Velaryon would dress like? They have such an interesting history that it’s hard for me, personally, to imagine it. My first thought was Vikings because they’re sea faring like the Greyjoys but it wouldn’t match too much because they’re a political powerhouse with dragons and members in the Royal family… at least in the HOTD era. In GOT they’re much smaller and less powerful naval house under Stannis who obviously isn’t as flashy as the Targs or even his brothers. The fashion would’ve changed drastically throughout their history, especially considering the two very different houses their power has been tied to so I was wondering what your take would be on their different statuses being reflected in their clothes.

This got very long lol I love your energy with the fashion history side of the fandom so I don’t mind if it takes a while to answer! Great things take time after all💚

Hey this is such a great question!! I think I’ll do like a “timeline” of fashion for this one instead of one period on time.

Okay so they’re said to have arrived even earlier than the targs, so their earliest fashions would be older remnants of Valyria. Fairly simple clothing, since I don’t think they were very established in Valyria, but as they made their wealth, their fashion became more complex with added jewelry and finer materials, but they still hung on to their traditions for a while. Simple one piece dresses or tunics and sun protecting/religious headwear that got more complex over time

An unspecified amount of time later, when the Targs arrive, the Velaryons have grown nice and wealthy off of the constant wars on the mainland. At this point they’re still cleaning to tradition, but they’re also letting Westerosi influences come in. Leather jerkins and wool cloaks and velvet jackets etc etc. And at this point they’re starting to evolve into a sea faring family too so: cotton clothing that’s easy to move around in on ships, turbans/head wraps to keep hair out of their face on Driftmark and while at sea, rare jewels and metals found on expeditions.

By the time of the dance they’ve probably fully conformed to Westerosi fashions. And they’re rich enough to fully indulge in it too. Big frills and ruffles, wide skirts, embroidered clothing, jeweled headdresses, studded leather jerkins, carefully crafted doublets, the whole nine yards. I feel that since this is the peak of the Targaryen era it’s also the peak of the Velaryon era, since they’re so closely connected

By the time of Aerys II, I think that their peak has definitely passed, and the Velaryons are slowly falling from grace, though it isn’t as extreme or as fast as the targs. Their clothes are older and more worn, beginning to become mostly for practicality. Skirts are flatter, leather has become cracked, people are wearing the clothes of their mother and father. It’s not immediate, but there’s definitely a slow decline in quality as the house becomes less and less important to Westeros

By the late 290’s, I think the Velaryons are all but faded into obscurity. They have their noble name, but that’s really it. They were fading already by the end of the Targs, so the absolute shitshow Robert launches the country in cant really be good for them, or the fact that Mr. Stingy Stannis is their new liege lord. When Aurane comes to power, they’re essentially just dressing like landed knights. Their clothes are clean and fit well and don’t have holes…but that’s about it.

#asoiaf #asoiaf hair and clothing #rip to the velaryons slay you will be missed #Aurane you deserve a house with full coffers I’m sorry u could not serve

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nightswatchdisbandmentera · 29 days

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ASOIAF entities as main pop girlies

The Night's Watch = Katy Perry

Once upon a time, pop's most influential hit maker suddenly decided to dye her hair blonde and get a pixie cut, got political, and publicly spoke to a therapist who told her to get her shit together. Thus began her never-ending flop era.

In an unrelated sequence of events, Aegon I Targaryen (a weird blonde man) invaded Westeros, created a central political unit, told the different kingdoms to get their shit together, and cut off the NW's weekly supply of men since there were no more pointless wars going around. Thus began their never-ending flop era.

BTW Jon Snow is the NW's 'Harleys in Hawaii'....their first and only hit in a really long time :(

The Kingsguard = Taylor Swift

Very famous, very rich, very influential, actually has a history of producing incredible material. But every now and then, you get a pop album that's just so..... bleh :/ And is Jaime Lannister the Westeros version of Taylor's Reputation era? Idk, you tell me....

Also, remember how TS had a feud with KP but got more famous and successful as Katy faded into irrelevance? Yeah, me too. In the same vein, the KG continues to maintain its high reputation while its counterpart (the NW) becomes even more irrelevant than it already was, if that's even possible.

The Golden Company = Gaga

Exclusively for the gays and no one else. There's really no doubt about it. But Gaga hurt the fanbase when she decided to pivot into acting, which is currently giving her more success than the music stuff. The GC has a great reputation but comes from a history of flop rebellions. So they've pivoted to a "Targaryen" pretender in hopes that they can win big this time around.

The Rainbowguard = Charli XCX

Huh?? Shouldn't the Rainbow Guard be Gaga??!

Please 🙄 don't be ridiculous. They do not have the material, and that's the T. But they're both for the gals and the gays. And in the same way that Charli had like two hits then faded into the shadows, the Rainbow Guard really can only claim Loras and Brienne. The rest are inconsequential.

The Brotherhood Without Banners = Dula Peep (aka Dua Lipa)

Who doesn't know THE Albanian pop princess Dula Peep?? She new, she's hot, and she's from out of town! She's got good music, but critics say that she's been recycling the same sound for a while now which is getting stale. The BWB has fallen into the hands of a foreign red god, and critics say that they can't produce a hit anymore since they kept recycling the same Beric. They did it six times, which got a little stale...

The Faceless Men = Grimes

Grimes makes really good music, I think? Also, remember when she dated a douchebag billionaire, got dumped, then staged a PR stunt reading the communist manifesto? Me neither. Anyway, the FM are known for being very good assassins who sell their services for the highest price possible. They were also founded by slaves, but that's probably unrelated.

Maesters of the Citadel = SZA

The talent is there, the influence is there, and the reputation is there. But you cannot trust them because they like to lie a lot...unprovoked.

[BONUS] Robb Stark's Vanguard = Bebe Rexha

Bebe is responsible for some of the greatest pop hits of the 21st century; she's even written one of the greatest K-pop songs of all time, that's a whole other region!! She's the very face of talent, but she's unfortunately a blink and you'll miss it type of gal. The average Joe would most likely struggle to name more than two songs from her. Robb's Vanguard also has the talent. They have the material. But sadly, 90% of us would struggle to identify anyone not named Dacey Mormont. I mean, did you even remember that this group existed?

[BONUS] Tywin Lannister = Nicki Minaj

A very talented but messy bitch who likes to play around with extremely problematic people...do I need to elaborate any further?

#pop girlie metric #the stormcrows are the pussycat dolls and daario is nicole - grrm revealed it to me in a dream #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #the night's watch #the kingsguard #the golden company #the rainbow guard #the brotherhood without banners #the faceless men #the citadel #tywin lannister

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melrosing · 5 months

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As your not a big fan of fantasy books in general. What drew you into loving asoiaf? What got you hooked?

now that I'm invested in asoiaf I do genuinely like the fantasy elements of the story, but the stuff that really pulled me in was the human drama and political intrigue etc. I love the character work, almost all of the POVs feel fully realised and subvert typical tropes in really interesting ways (imo). I like the inter-generational drama (the reasons I like succession are v similar to the reasons I like the Lannisters), like if I want to understand Jaime and Cersei and Tyrion I can look to Tywin, and if I want to understand Tywin I can look to Tytos, and if I was to understand Tytos I can look to Gerold, like it's a russian doll of intergenerational trauma what more could a girl want.

and on that note I really like the scope! GRRM obviously feels this need to account for all details minor and major, so that even with everything that's already on the page there's room to extrapolate so much more. i mean here I am writing who knows how many words about a fake 20-episode long robert's rebellion tv series lol like this all happened before the series even starts and yet I hardly need to make anything up bc there is so much to draw on just based on all the random little details we've got here and there from characters reflecting on the same events from different angles, and trying to piece together portraits of the people who died based on the recollections of those on the page who remember them..... it is so fun)

and yeah usually I prefer to read about that kind of thing on a smaller scale but the drama that plays out in AGOT is so engaging that upon initiation I didn't find it so much of a chore to keep track of all the various houses and lands etc in order to understand the full implications of each thing that happened - it felt like it was worth the effort. generally it's the 'keeping track' of it all that I find grating about fantasy bc I really want to just get on with the story rather than keep on top of a hundred magic systems and sub-species of pixie.

and obvs asoiaf is low fantasy rather than high fantasy, i.e. there aren't intricate systems to the magic and or complicated genus for each of the creatures, so that made it feel a lot more accessible for me as someone who just isn't very interested in those kinds of details. Dany's magic is made up as she goes along, it's never explained, and that's the same for pretty much all the fantastical elements - it's very show don't tell. and even though when you count it all up there are quite a lot of fantastical features and subplots, taken together with the rest of the story it's more like.... seasonings I wouldn't usually choose but ended up liking just fine in this overall dish lol

and finally asoiaf just really appealed to me from a fannish perspective! I really hate when you're trying to dig deeper with a work and you quickly start to realise that the writer(s) just weren't thinking that hard. it feels like striking concrete with a spade, like it's a one-sided conversation rather than something both the writer and the reader are participating in. I think some fans are perfectly fine with that and good for them - who cares if the author built the work to sustain your analysis if you're just having fun doing it - but for me it's a complete killjoy, I end up v frustrated and like the work isn't worth my time

so here's GRRM who is so fixated on the finer details that he's churned out a history book like 700 pages long and a bunch of short stories and also another history book just to add a bit more texture to the main story. and I don't have to worry about network input or co-writers or actors' intentions or whatever other external conflict or influence cos for better or worse it's all his story. and that just suits me better lol, it's one guy and his shitty computer, and me reading the shit he wrote with it. pure and simple living in the moment no phones in sight

also jaime and brienne are everything to me xo

#ask #like do i ever want him to finish the story but even still im like. god i love this shit

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westeroswisdom · 6 months

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Nikolaj Coster-Waldau has eight seasons of faux Medieval cred thanks to his character Jaime Lannister on Game of Thrones. In an upcoming production by the BBC and CBS Studios he gets to recreate some actual 11th century history in the series King and Conqueror.

Nikolaj's character never got to rule the Seven Kingdoms. But in King and Conqueror he portrays William the Conqueror who became King of England and ultimately the founder of the royal line which still reigns in London.

George R.R. Martin was heavily influenced by English, French, and Scottish history in ASoIaF. GRRM may have had William the Conqueror in mind when writing about Aegon I Targaryen.

In 1066, the English King Edward the Confessor died without an heir. As if dying without a direct descendant to claim the throne wasn't one of the most chaotic things a king could do, Edward took it a step further: He allegedly promised the throne to both his brother-in-law, Harold Godwinson, and to a distant relative, William of Normandy. Harold and William weren't the only ones with a claim, either. While the pope endorsed William's claim, the resulting war of succession would force Harold to fight Harald Hardrada, the king of Norway, who also claimed the thrones of Denmark and England and invaded the latter alongside Harold's brother, Tostig. Anglo-Saxon King Harold would have to defeat Harald before meeting William and his Norman invasion at the Battle of Hastings, all in the same year. If that sounds to you like a lot of drama that could easily be its own television series, you aren't alone. CBS Studios and the BBC are teaming to produce "King and Conqueror," a show about this most pivotal event in English history. James Norton ("Happy Valley") and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau ("Game of Thrones") are attached to be the titular King Harold and William the Conqueror, respectively. [ ... ] Historians might disagree on whose side of the story is more accurate, but screenwriters and producers agree that no matter what happened, the 1,000-year-old story will make for great television. Michael Robert Johnson ("Sherlock Holmes") will pen the series while Baltasar Kormákur ("2 Guns") will direct. "King and Conqueror" begins production in 2024.

There's actually a physical artistic link between the account of William's conquest in the 1060s and Game of Thrones.

After William's victory, his half-brother Bishop Odo was apparently the commissioner of a tapestry embroidered with scenes which tell the epic story of William's conquest. The cloth, now known as the Bayeaux Tapestry is an amazing 70 meters long. It can be viewed here.

So volunteers at the Ulster Museum in Northern Ireland where GoT was produced created a tapestry in the style of the Bayeaux Tapestry which tells the story of all eight seasons of GoT. See our 2019 post about it.

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thephantomcasebook · 8 months

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Why does Martin think that killing Jaeheara was such a clever plot? As he writes it 1 Alicent who is almost universally agreed to be a political powerhouse must be kept under lock and key because she has taken to trying to stab the king even though she has NEVER been known to commit violence-saying nasty things don’t count-. How convenient for the Blacks’ tenuous hold on power. 2 She also-completely out of character- frightens her granddaughter so badly that they are kept apart. Again how convenient for the Blacks who no longer need to worry about unwanted influences on their queen. 3 Jaehaera apparently commits suicide-odd that such a fragile girl is left on her own 4 Aegon marries Daeneara Velaryon 1/

I get this question a lot ... and my answer is never satisfying to people that are looking for absolution.

And it's simply that you have to look at the real world circumstances of the author rather than try to explain bad writing in the text.

"Fire and Blood" is a Show Bible, not a narrative. The book is a collection of ideas and foundation for adaptions and projects to be built upon from a somewhat cohesive - somewhat - timeline to give a broader context to the history of the world.

I've been told and had ugly confrontations with Elio Garcia about how he swears that the Daeaena and Jaehaera plotline was thought up all the way back in 1999. Which is a flat out lie and you can tell it is by the fact that nothing about it made sense or fits with the ASoIaF cannon. Also, GRRM as well as Elio and Linda have been known to lie about details and plotlines having always been the plan when it was clear that the old man pulled it out of his ass mid-storyline.

The Velaryons are corporate Targaryens, ESG Valyrians. GRRM was writing "Fire and Blood" at the height of GOT's popularity. He knew what would sell, what people liked, and so he pulled some random House out of obscurity and decided to build them up for no reason but for marketing and then backdoored them into more importance than they were ever meant to be. That the reason that we never heard of the "Sea Snake" till "Fire and Blood" or how Velaryons were a joke House to everyone in the ASoIaF books, but now, suddenly, they're the most powerful House of all time.

The reason that the Daeaena storyline doesn't make any sense is because it is GRRM rewriting his own lore for marketing purposes. Like the outline of an object that's been removed, you can see where Aegon III and Jaehaera got married, see how their kids resemble aspects of both the Greens and the Blacks, and how the introduction of Daeaena upended the symmetry and now nothing makes sense.

"Fire and Blood" was clearly written by a man at the pinnacle of his popularity in which he believed he could do no wrong and it shows in the shoddy corporate craftmanship of his later world building.

#House of the Dragon #Fire and Blood #Jaehaera Targaryen #Aegon II Targaryen

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sweetestpopcorn · 8 months

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hi Sweetestpopcorn! i was wondering, do you have an idea of what country Leng is based on? (i am trying to find out so i can get some cool references for Rhaebae's beautiful tiara 😍)

Hi there Anon 😊 And sorry for this delay!

So, I loved this ask because as anyone who has ever been to my tumblr knows, I'm a sl_t for the Jade Tiara that Daemon gave Rhaenyra <3 like based on that alone, and with nothing else, I would ship them. There. But moving on, I loved this ask, but I was having serious trouble answering the ask because although I find Asian cultures super interesting I know close to nothing about it.

Gun to my head I would say China just from the aesthetics, but I might be totally wrong. Because I don't know, I decided to recruit someone who might know: our lovely @ammmyturtle who does know quite a bit about Chinese and Eastern culture and history to help me.

So, according to Ammmy, when she was doing some research on the topic, she got a feeling that George just mixed up Eastern cultures all up and created YiTi, but her impression is that both YiTi and Leng are a bit strange. For instance, it's mentioned that there are ruined cities in the jungles of Leng where old Leng nations used to live and that these were made of stone. Nonetheless, for people who live in humid areas it seems like wood is the main source of building material, due to the jungles and forests.

The colonising aspect of YiTi, and how Leng got their independence is also relevant though since according to Ammmy in the past Chinese empires had a hard time maintaining governance over the southern parts of the territory. Partly, because they were humid places filled with jungles. Then those people were not traditionally Han Chinese which is somewhat similar to Leng and YiTi’s relationship. Moreover, although Leng is now independent, it still has ties with YiTi, since the Empress takes two husbands and one is always from YiTi. But all in all, Ammmy said it was complicated.

I think it's fair to say that at the very least there is significant influence from the Chinese Empire in Leng and Yiti, so perhaps the jade tiara - who once belonged to an Empress *sigh* - should reflect that.

Ammmy definitely went for that on her last rendition of the tiara (original post here):

Anyway, I don't know how helpful this was XD

Btw for all of you who love parallels, like the Empresses of Leng, Rhaenyra too had two husbands - just not as the same time :3 (that friendly reminder that all I write only concerns the asoiaf canon in which Laenor was dead and well dead when she married Daemon).

All the best to you, Anon -3- loved the ask even if I really struggled for a proper answer XD

#rhaenyra targaryen #canon rhaenyra targaryen #rhaenyra's jade tiara #jade tiara #leng #yiti #asoiaf #speculation #the rogue prince #the princess and the queen #fire and blood #the world of ice and fire #popcorn answers #most of this answer was thanks to ammmy #so actually ammmy and popcorn answer

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kellyvela · 1 year

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What is the appeal on a character like Daemon for GRRM? I know you’ve read a lot of his works and the things that influenced him. Do you see some connections there?

I don't really find any connection between Daemon and other George's characters outside asoiaf or other works that George read.

Daemon is not a well developed character. He doesn't have a POV. He's just an historial figure that appears in two short pre canon stories that are repeated in TWOIAF and Fire and Blood.

Show Daemon is very whitewashed. I was expecting a big charismatic baddie, a kind of blonde Euron mixed with Oberyn and Jaime Lannister, but I only got a manchild with daddy issues and erectile dysfunction....

The grand infamous rogue prince that George likes so much only exists in his head.

#anon asks #daemon 'the rogue prince' targaryen #george likes writing villains

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justadram · 9 months

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Damn, that is a really long drive. And no, i'm not from the U.S., i'm from Europe; we're not used to driving so long on a regular basis. In Europe if you drive for 9-10 hours, you are either crossing the country or travelling to a city in another country. Although i have heard that it's normal/common for people in the U.S to drive long distances/for a long period of time.

Thank you for the explanation with regards to Sugar Loaf.

Also, wanted to say that Lupum Luna was also great. The story gave me vibes of the Red Rising series; did you read that series and got inspired by it and placed Westeros in the Solar System?

Soldiers, Spies... was equally great. Seeing them in the Revolutionary War setting and what they went through was nice. Might there be a story with the characters of House Stark and possibly others from ASOIAF set in the Civil War era?

I figured! When I've driven around the U.K. people act like I'm nuts for the distances I've driven in a day and to me it's nothing. I'm still in my home state after driving 4 hours on the interstate in one direction. The next closest major city is 4+ hours away going at a good clip.

Back in the day, I convinced the entire Jon/Sansa fandom to read Red Rising when it was still just the first book. So, yes, it's an influence for sure! I'd chew glass to write action scenes as well as Pierce Brown. I'm currently reading my way through the new release in the series, but I get scared and have to put it down every few minutes. I'm also just a Star Trek, Star Wars, or any space-themed fiction lover in general.

Thank you re: Soldiers, Spies... I wrote that thinking maybe 5 people would like it but I needed to write it anyway. On the other hand, I don't want to touch the issue of slavery in fiction with a ten-foot pole, which is the crux of the Civil War, so there's no way I'll ever set anything in that era. I teach it every fall semester, however, to my students in U.S. History. And I read the most horrifying essays, which would turn anyone off approaching the topic, unfortunately.

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em-writes-stuff-sometimes · 1 year

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Right.

I've had a really good idea for something that could cause a lot of possible DRAMA within your fanfic. Historically, when big cities like London were suffering from a bout of the plague the king would remove his court from the capital to another location in order to reduce the chances of the royal family catching it (e.g. Great Plague of London 1665).

So, I was wondering if perhaps something similar might happen in Kings Landing were a really bad plague sweeps through the city sort of like a precursor to the Great Spring Sickness in Dunk and Egg. The plague would be so severe that Vissy T would be forced to temporarily move the royal family in Kings Landing to another location in order to reduce the chances of them catching the plague. But the only other property the Targaryens own apart from the Red Keep is, you guessed it... their ancestral seat of DRAGONSTONE. The place where all the BLACKS are.

Alicent tries to get Vissy T to go to Oldtown instead but he's like 'Pffft. Why would I exchange one plague-ridden city for another plague-ridden city?' and so Viserys takes his entire family of GREENS to seek safety from the plague on Dragonstone and Rhae-Rhae wont object because she's worried that her father, who's already ill, will die from the PLAGUE if he continues to stay in Kings Landing.

So the Greens and the Blacks will be forced to live in close proximity for around six moons, will they wait for the plague to abate in Kings Landing. And obviously theirs going to be DRAMA because Alicent and Rhaenrya cannot stand each other and Daemon, Criston and Otto are stuck in a hatred triangle. Simultaneously, the Green kids might get jealous of how familial the Blacks are with each other and Otto Hightower might try and distance Daeron from the Blacks when he sees how close they are to him so Daeron snitches to Big Sister Babey and Nuncle Daemon who then engage in a covert war with Otto and Alicent over Daeron's loyalties which BABEY ultimately wins because she is better than them. This causes Alicent to resent her for 'stealing' Daeron and by Episode 8 they'll no longer be as cordial with each other, with Alicent viewing Babey not quite as badly as Rhaenrya but close enough because she's jealous that Daeron barely knows her and treats Babey like his mother. With Otto criticising her for allowing Daeron to have so much Team!Black influence in his life, I can see Alicent making more and more desperate overtures to get Daeron to join her in Kings Landing, and by extension the Greens, which ultimately gets her nowhere and actually causes Dareon to distance himself from his Hightower family for a bit. MUHAHAHAHA.

Sorry for making you read all this crap but I really had to vent all of my brain-rot before it got out-of-control. You don't have to consider this but the potential for DRAMA MAKES ME GO NFFFFFFF.

Thanks Em!

This is actually really awesome! I do borrow quite a bit from medieval history to fill in world-building gaps, seeing as how ASOIAF was more-or-less modelled on the Wars of the Roses, so this has some historical weight to it that would make things hilariously chaotic. Plus, Vissie T and the King's crew get to see how Daemon and Babey and Rhae and Laenor run their shit. Bitch, they're visitors on Dragonstone. The court be mad jealous of how fucking swag the awesome foursome are, Vissie T is like 'bitch you stole my SPOTLIGHT' to Daemon, Alicent's huffy as fuck cuz they radiate badass and she radiates social climber, and Otto looks like he's permanently sucking on a turd. Ser Incel is losing his godsdamned mind, while Helaena's just happy to vibe, tbh. Aemond's all 'eh' and skulky, while Aegon's fine cuz there's alcohol here too.

Daemon's torn between wanting to show off and wanting them all to fuck off, Rhae and Laenor are done already, and Babey's givin' it her best damn shot. Everyone's stunned as fuck by how domestic they've managed to make the literal hellscape that is the Targaryen home seat, given its depressing-as-shit decor and drab moody vibe.

This is awesome, anon - I'll definitely have to keep it in mind!

#fanfiction comments #follower headcanons #future plot arcs

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dulcewrites · 1 year

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Celine and Aegon seem so interesting I’d love to know more about them. The fact that Nina’s mom made her watch their wedding must have made meeting them in person extra strange for her

Another ask: What do you think Nina thought about the royal family prior to meeting Aemond? Like who did she have a crush on and who did she ship with whom? (I’m realllyyy interested to know what she and the general public thought of Alicent and her children because people tend to completely dehumanize public figures in a brutal way. )

They are sooo interesting. Very much frenemies to lover to enemies to friends lmao. Complex history for people who have known each other since they were kids. I see Celine (house Lannister and the other great noble houses) in aritocrasy, so honestly probably more ‘blue blood’ than even direct members of the royal family.

It was strange for Nina to see them, all of the family really. They sort of seemed like they weren’t even real??? And now she’s with one of them…. It’s a lot. I think the general public’s opinion on Alicent would depend on how well like aemma was/the story they try to spin on it. They being the pr people of the ~palace~. I think aemma was well liked so she would be in this universe too. Her death was hard on everyone, but I could see them spinning it like ‘the king found a new lease on life through his new bride’ gag. People are fickle and Alicent is beautiful, young, giving, and gives birth to four kids - in the end she’s beloved for ‘lifting viserys from his doldrums’. By association her kids are loved.

Of course, that being said does not mean they have not had their fair share of shit in the media. If it is anything like the media in England for the actual royal family, there is a mutualistic almost parasitic relationship. They have to keep the media happy to have positive things written about them. The kids def went through some rebel phases (outside maybe daeron who is still young) which got written about.

Nina didn’t have great feelings about the Royal family. While in asoiaf universe, they are making decisions for the realm, irl there is often a governing body (like parliament). But the royal family can still push policy and influence things even if they are just figureheads. And as a whole scientist who studies the spread of diseases just coming off a global pandemic… safe to say she’s not a fan lmao. Honestly she was probably more interested in the girls in the family 💀. Baela rhaena hel all have public instas that ngl probably pop off.

#modern royal au asks #I should probably try to #think of a name

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navree · 1 year

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Why there is such obsession with old Valeryia in this fandom and thinking everything related to that empire is superior to anything else ?

I mean, I can sorta get it, it sounds cool. This ancient and vast empire of untold riches with their powerful city is cool, this decadent empire running on blood magic and curses and sordid deeds and deals in the dark is cool, a pseudo-democratic society that's filled with rich people vying for control and power and doing whatever's necessary to get it is cool, a society built around the fact that these people not only have fire magic but also literal fucking dragons they can ride around on and have a special connection to is cool, a society of amazingly and inhumanly beautiful people with otherworldly features is cool.

There's a lot about Valyria that can be fascinating, that it's this great shining monument of gold and marble built on the back of one of the most heinous evils, slavery, a society of beautiful and powerful people who are as corrupt and greedy as anyone else can be, soaring dragons and also blood magic and practices of sordid taboos like enchantments and incest, it's got all the building blocks of something incredibly fascinating to work with. And when you factor in the Doom, this huge cataclysm whose effects are still felt by the time the story takes place, this huge annihilation that wiped out nearly everything we could ever know about this world, this thing that reshaped the world as we know it (not only just in Essos, but in literally beginning the dying of magic in the world that's only been recently rekindled with the birth of Dany's dragons), it just gets even more interesting. It's also worth that two of the societies that Valyria is based on are the histories of Ancient Rome and the myth of Atlantis, both which continue to fascinate us well into the modern day right now. There is, genuinely, a lot that can be done about Valyria, and on its own merits it does make sense to me that people are interested in it.

There's also the fact that we are exposed to Valyria and Valyrian culture primarily through the Targaryens. And listen, guys, the Targaryens are incredibly popular. Dany is quite possibly the most popular character George has ever created, and she's certainly the most iconic to come out of both ASOIAF and GOT, and this has extended to her dynasty, gotten people invested in where she came from while we wait for more information about her. There's a reason why the precipitous drop in popularity that GOT saw in its last season, culminating in its complete oblivion, came as general audiences saw how badly they were planning to execute their planned arc with Dany; there's a reason why the most detailed supplementary reading we've gotten has been a history of the first half of Targaryen rule; there's a reason why the only spinoff that's currently happening (and rekindling a completely dead public interest in GOT and a waning general interest in ASOIAF) is a Targaryen spinoff. Targaryens are popular, which means that their stories are popular, and therefore the culture and society that they came from and continued to be influenced by are popular. Valyria being interesting to the fans not just for what it was in and of itself, but also just due to the popularity of Dany and Targs in general, that also makes sense.

But why people consider it inherently superior to all other cultures? That I'm not really sure. I find Valyria interesting as shit, but do I consider it superior? Nah, none of these cultures are greater than any of the others, there's good things and drawbacks to regular southron Westerosi culture, Northern culture, Dornish/Rhoynish culture, and especially Valyrian culture, that's kinda the point. GRRM built a real world, and societies in that world have good things and bad things about them and none are inherently better than the other unless you're really into, like, social Darwinism or some shit. The problem is fandom culture, and how it's evolved. Now it's not enough to just like something, now you gotta like something because liking it is the objectively moral and correct thing to do. It's the inverse of this view we're seeing that you have to prove your dislike of something, be it a ship or character or overall piece of entertainment, based on its varying "problematic" aspects, rather than just admitting that they don't like something. Now, they've gotta like something, like Valyria, because it's The Best, rather than just admitting that sometimes we like things cuz we like things, and it has no bearing on the kind of person we are outside of that fandom.

And if fandoms at large could kinda stop doing that, that'd be so so so great.

#personal #answered #anonymous #if it weren't narratively impossible for there to be stories about the valyrian freehold #i would be clamoring for stories from the valyrian freehold #honestly if hbo wanted to do a freehold show i wouldn't be opposed #(i just think that it should really lean into the rome thing and completely ape interesting parts of roman history)#(and just add magical shit and dragons)#(i also have thoughts on that)#(which should not be that surprising if you've been here long enough i have thoughts on basically everything)

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cappymightwrite · 3 years

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I think what is important is that many of the plot points he described in that outline are more or less going to take place but the characters involved in those have changed . Tyrion was meant to capture Winterfell and burn it but in the books it's Theon and later Ramsay who carried out the deed. Bran was suppose to go North of the Wall with Cat but he ends up going there with the Reed siblings. Arya flees to the Wall from Lannister soldiers and in the books you have Lannister regime placing a bounty on Sansa. Even original outline Sansa very much clearly mirrors to that of Elia and Tywin is more or less the Jaime of the original outline.

Another thing that really interested me was how GRRM decribed that Arya would find out to her horror that she had fallen in love with Jon , the psychology here is how she buries her thoughts deep inside and lies to herself before the world comes crashing down to horror and this kind of self denial is really evident in Sansa's character. The fact that she is already married to one of the trios in the love triangle looks now quite promising.

Hello!

Sorry for the very late reply — trying to do a little tidy up of my inbox. I think your ask is in response to this one, also from you, about the original outline where I go into some detail about GRRM's history of writing romantic red-heads?

Without question, lots of things in the series are wildly different to what was laid out in that publishers outline. But perhaps what it does reveal more than anything is the certain themes he was interested in exploring, and which have been carried over into asoiaf as we know it. So, that is why you get a switching/altering of characters, but as you detailed, certain events or themes still occuring.

But moving on to the second part of your message...

Arya will be more forgiving... until she realises, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book. – GRRM, circa 1993

I completely agree with you that this theme of realisation and supression is very present in Sansa's arc, on a psychological level. We see realisation through her disillusionment arc, which parallels your classic bildungsroman structure, and then suppression in how she deals with her trauma, e.g. 'the Unkiss,' but also in her dynamic with gentle Petyr vs. cunning Littlefinger, amongst other things. Add to that Sansa's very romantic nature and the romance associations in her arc, her involvement with Tyrion, the lack of an established dynamic between her and Jon... and it's got all the right ingredients to explore what was first briefly alluded to in this outline.

So, like I said, even though the characters have changed, been switched, and in Sansa's case been promoted to more narrative relevancy, GRRM's interest in the incest motif (see the Lannisters and Targaryens) remains very present. It makes sense to me, from the ongoing Byron investigation I've been doing, that he is also very interested in a dynamic that strongly emulates the relationships found in Lord Byron's work (The Bride of Abydos + Manfred), and this paragraph above very much testifies to that interest.

At some point I plan to do a more general look at GRRM's interest in Romanticism and his Romantic sensibilities because it really is very interesting to me... and maybe not discussed all that much?

GRRM: I was always intensely Romantic, even when I was too young to understand what that meant. But Romanticism has its dark side, as any Romantic soon discovers... which is where the melancholy comes in, I suppose. I don't know if this is a matter of artistic influences so much as it is of temperament. But there's always been something in a twilight that moves me, and a sunset speaks to me in a way that no sunrise ever has. [source]

Thanks for the message! x

#cappy's thoughts #jonsa #jon x sansa #the 1993 outline

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