Let's talk in depth about book Alicent. because even though i read the book 3 years ago I didn't engage online about it until the show's release and um. wow. some people have a very different interpretation of her to me. and also... some of those interpretations show a fundamental misunderstanding of the text, a tendency toward indulging the misogyny present in Fire and Blood, or both.

People are saying the writers changed a lot about Alicent's story and 'made her a victim'... they didn't. It was always possible to read the book and perceive that she was in many ways a victim. Honestly the biggest thing they changed was her age, probably to assist the interpretation they'd chosen, but the larger elements all stay the same; in both versions she's worked in service of the crown since she was young (as a type of companion either to Jaehaerys or Rhaenyra) and she and Rhaenyra initially have a good relationship (according to one source in F&B - this supposedly changes when Aegon was born and not named heir). So making it Rhaenyra we see her close with just makes the emotional tethers that might have been there anyway more visible. After all, Rhaenyra Does spare Alicent's life in F&B, and whilst she says it's for Viserys sake, Alicent at that point had been at the very least complicit in the deaths of most of Rhaenyra's children. Rhaenyra having such a strong former bond with Alicent is going to give this event in the show a lot more weight. It's not hard to see why they made this change, because it adds to the tragedy of the story immeasurably.

The fact is everything we see of Alicent in F&B is up for debate to some extent. Like, for example, did she seduce Viserys? of course certain sources tell us yes, but Fire and Blood is brimming with asoiaf-typical misogyny; it all reminds me somewhat of the story of Anne Boleyn, her story molded into something unrecognisable by history in order to make her the instigator. In truth, we have no way of knowing if Alicent wanted Viserys or not, but we do know she probably didn't have to seduce him. She was widely regarded as being the most beautiful woman - it wouldn't have taken a lot for Viserys to notice her. People, characters and readers alike, assume that because she wasn't a good political match he must have been persuaded, but Viserys was a selfish man, (that is indisputable, we see it in many of his provable actions), so it fits with his character to choose a slightly unsuitable wife on the basis of his own lust. The age gap in the show only serves to demonstrate visually the power imbalance that was at least somewhat present in the book anyway. And yes, this like most things in the book is up for interpretation, but I will say this: I seriously do not respect people calling her 'evil'.

The text never presents Alicent as evil. Even in the worst of her actions she is never legitimately shown to revel in the pain and suffering of others. At most you could argue she was ambitious, but I don't even believe that on the basis of one specific thing: it was her, not Otto, who asked Viserys to betroth Aegon to Rhaenyra. This was not a crazy suggestion in the book, as it was presented in the show; they were only a decade apart, and it was the Valyrian custom that the eldest son would marry his eldest sister, as Aegon the conqueror married Visenya. Alicent wanted this without stipulating the expectation that Aegon would rule instead of Rhaenyra. Viserys reportedly dismissed Alicent on the basis of believing she only wanted Aegon a step closer to the throne, and it can be read that way, but personally I don't think so. I think she was exhausting options to try to protect him after she realised Viserys was never going to name him heir.

Ultimately, Alicent would have been stupid to ignore that her children's lives were at stake. Especially in Fire and Blood where she was much less familiar with Rhaenyra. Nothing in Rhaenyra's actions suggested she wouldn't be capable. She reportedly had no affection for her brothers where she doted on Helaena, suggesting she already saw them as threats. She had demonstrated herself willing to accept physical harm to them in favour of her own sons. She was later thought to be at least complicit in the death of her husband Laenor, who had by all accounts been a good, kind husband to her… and then she married Daemon. Even before this he had been an obvious threat to Alicent's children; a violent man who'd always lusted after power, with a known hatred for Hightowers and who'd never been kind to his nephews by Alicent. Even if Alicent didn't believe Rhaenyra capable of murdering her sons, she would have been stupid not to believe Daemon able.

The truth is even in the book this crisis was set in motion by Viserys. Once he'd refused to marry Aegon to Rhaenyra the bomb was built and ticking away, it was only a matter of time. Even if Rhaenyra's heirs had been indisputably trueborn, Aegon and his brothers and any descendants they had would have been symbols for those who wanted to oppose the Crown to rally behind as soon as Rhaenyra or Jacaerys disappointed them, no matter if Alicent's sons had personally bent the knee. The situation only became more dire when it was clear that Rhaenyra's heir was not trueborn.

Fire and Blood isn't even really quiet about Rhaenyra's first three sons being bastards. To me it read like Rhaenys' Baratheon blood allowed those who wanted to believe otherwise to delude themselves, as Viserys does in both versions. After all, in the book Laenor being gay is an open secret. But the thing is… it doesn't even really matter if they were or not. With so many people believing they were bastards, they were pretty much as good as. Eventually, and most definitely after Rhaenyra's death, there would have been some form of conflict. Because if Jace, an assumed bastard, ascended the throne it would throw into question the claims of almost every lord in Westeros, many of whom would have older bastard brothers. and if a bastard who didn't even look targaryen could sit the highest seat in the realm over a trueborn silver-haired son of a king like Aegon, what's to stop the bastard brothers of any lord from laying claim to their seat? Aegon would have become a rallying point for that dispute whether he liked it or not, and Jace would have been forced to dispose of him if he wanted to maintain power.

In light of this, it's really no wonder Alicent repeatedly voices her animosity over Rhaenyra's sons questionable births. It's very telling that in F&B every cruel comment she reportedly makes about or to Rhaenyra references it. and I say "reportedly" because one of the worst of her quotes, her saying 'mayhaps the whore will die in childbirth' about Rhaenyra, people quote as fact… if you do this I will laugh in your face and ask if you read the book. because Alicent did not say that. or rather, if she did, Fire and Blood would not be able to tell us either way because the quote is attributed to her by Mushroom, one of Rhaenyra's supporters who (apart from being a famed liar) was with Rhaenyra on Dragonstone at the time.

The other two quotes used to argue her supposed evilness are from slightly less questionable sources, and honestly, yeah, it does seem likely to me Alicent implied to Rhaenyra her bastard sons' blood was worth less than that of her own trueborn sons'… but at that point, with the horror she'd experienced on account of Viserys upholding Rhaenyra and her sons' questionable claims, her reacting in this way is perhaps cruel and prejudiced, but not evil. And almost justifiably cruel in my opinon; for all she knows the woman she's talking to directly ordered for her six-year-old grandson to be brutally murdered in front of her, her daughter, and her other grandchildren, directly leading to her daughter's madness and later suicide. Was she going to be respectful? Is it fair to expect that from her? This focus on the term 'bastard blood' overshadows the rest of the quote: “Bastard blood shed at war. My son’s sons were innocent boys, cruelly murdered. How many more must die to slake your thirst for vengeance?” Why is Alicent being a bit of a bitch treated as a worse sin than Rhaenyra ordering the brutal murder of a toddler, or at the very least excusing it.

The last quote mentioned to back up claims of alicent's 'evilness' is her telling her granddaughter Jaehaera she should slit the throat of her husband Aegon III in his sleep. By this point it seemed to me Alicent was no doubt consumed by bitterness and would have attacked Aegon herself given the chance, but even without condoning her words or actions we can see how she became like that; all of Alicent's sons are dead and she wants all of Rhaenyra's gone too. Wasn't it "an eye for an eye, a son for a son"? - Rhaenyra's side set the precedent, the idea that it is justifiable to take one innocent life in exchange for another, no matter if its the life of a child who just happens to have been born on the other side of a war.

Alicent by the end of her life had certainly been driven to cruelty in her grief, twisted into something ugly by the world and locked away to rot.

And yet her final words weren't steeped in bitterness or violence. When the fever sets in she accepts death, even welcomes it. She speaks of seeing her children again, and King Jaehaerys. So doesn't that say she was never driven by hatred at all? That there was never any kind of innate evil nature? At least that's my interpretation. This is the same girl who spent her youth reading to a dying king for no clear reward, and felt such affection for him that she mentioned him at the end of her own life, perhaps pining for the time before her marriage. (No doubt in the show she will mention Rhaenyra instead). This is the woman whose daughter and grandchildren visited her with such reliable frequency her grandson's killers knew to wait in her rooms for them.

So what was so evil about her? That she quite understandably saw Rhaenyra and her sons as a threat, and preemptively acted to protect her own? As much as people like to project ideologies onto these characters, neither Alicent nor Rhaenyra's motivations were ideological, that much as clear.

I may have many reservations about House of the Dragon's execution of it, but the decision to present Alicent as a victim of the world she inhabits was not only the right choice, but also kind of the only choice. HotD is presented as objective truth, where F&B is a collection of biased accounts dripping in the misogyny of the men relating them, and so HotD had to be a critique of its own source material. I admit to having my own bias, and my analysis is at least slightly skewed in Alicent's favour because I'm responding to the most negative interpretations of her. And they are all just interpretations. But in my opinion, those adapting the text looked at Alicent and saw her, where clearly many readers didn't. They asked "what if this woman is misunderstood?", "what if this woman had no real choice?", "what if the men of this world just chose to ignore her complexity, because she was a woman?" and those were absoutely the questions to ask.

can you pls talk about rhaenys bc her conversation with alicent in ep9 INFURIATES me

Oop get ready for an unpopular opinion. I actually love that whole conversation and everything it illuminates about both Alicent and Rhaenys. It's such an effective and devastating commentary on the different reactions women have to the patriarchy. And I don't think it has to be read as Rhaenys antagonizing or looking down upon Alicent, in which case she definitely does come across as a hypocrite, given that she never once even attempts to disobey her husband no matter how strongly she disagrees with him.

But is that the only way to read Rhaenys's words here? No. And I'm not convinced she's trying to accuse Alicent of wrongdoing here, especially in light of the conversation Rhaenys had with Rhaenyra in episode 2. In that conversation, Rhaenyra very much seems to be reveling in the fact that she is an exception while Rhaenys is not. Rhaenys fails to rise to the bait, because she understands what Rhaenyra does not: There is no exception to misogyny, not even if you are the rightful heir to the throne. So it seems odd for Rhaenys to see right through Rhaenyra there, and yet to turn around and do the exact same thing to Alicent.

So I think that in episode 9 Rhaenys is commiserating with Alicent. Consider the actual words she says. Never once does she insult Alicent, or imply that she is evil for the things she's had to do. She simply says, "you toil still in service to men. Your father, your husband, your son." This doesn't have to be a judgment, since Rhaenys has spent her entire life doing the exact same thing. Remember, in this scene Rhaenys is trying to convince Alicent to free her. It's not unthinkable that she's trying to build common ground and incite Alicent's sympathy in order to get herself released. It's not unthinkable that she says this knowing the exact same thing applies to her, too, that she says this precisely because of it.

And consider the line "have you never imagined yourself on the Iron Throne" and how incredibly telling it is. Rhaenys isn't necessarily marveling at the fact that Alicent works within the limits of the patriarchy, because for all the above reasons Rhaenys herself very much does the same thing; she's marveling at the fact that Alicent is so brainwashed she doesn't even allow herself to privately dream of freedom. That she "desire[s] not to be free, but to make a window within the wall of [her] prison."

Because Rhaenys cannot stop imagining it, imagining herself on the Iron Throne. The indignity and cruelty and injustice of being denied her birthright haunts her every waking moment. Now, this anger does not give her the power to challenge what has been done to her. She conforms, and she submits, just like Alicent. But it makes her fucking furious, while Alicent will not even allow herself that. Rhaenys cannot be content with just a window, and she knows that deep down Alicent cannot be, either, but that doesn't mean Rhaenys thinks she's any less trapped within that prison. Rhaenys wants more than a window, and yet she knows that both her and Alicent will never be able to have anything more.

Rhaenys isn't marveling in how brainwashed Alicent is. She's sympathizing with it. Yes, she's frustrated and angry, but she displays enough awareness throughout the series to indicate that she'd understand Alicent isn't the target of her ire. She's venting, y'all, to the only other person who might understand her unique torment as a high-born woman whose power is still not enough to save her.

I know fandom loves to pit women against each other, especially in this case given the whole team divide within the HotD fandom. But in my mind, this is simply an excruciatingly honest and vulnerable conversation between two women who have spent their entire lives being trampled by the patriarchy, allowing it to happen because they have no other choice. They are the same in every way, and they are the same in their helplessness in the face of institutional misogyny. Alicent and Rhaenys are the same, save for how they privately feel about their circumstances: Whether they feel resignation, or rage.

And these negative feelings are levied not towards each other, because they both understand (unlike baby Rhaenyra in episode 2) that other women are not and have never been the enemy. Instead, these feelings are directed towards the men, towards the patriarchy, towards the system that has actually done this to them. Rhaenys is furious in this scene, but I think it's so much more interesting if you recognize that she is only ever furious at what the patriarchy has done to her, and that the only things she feels towards Alicent are camaraderie and pity.

HotD is a fascinating exploration of all of the different ways in which women try to respond or cope with the patriarchy. Alicent, a noble but relatively unpowerful girl, spends her entire life submitting to the more powerful men around her, telling herself she's alright with how things are. Rhaenys, one of the most powerful women alive, the rightful heir to the Throne and a dragonrider to boot, spends her entire life submitting to her more powerful, male family members, raging internally the whole way. Rhaenyra, arguably the most powerful woman alive, the rightful heir to the Throne and a dragonrider with the backing of all of the men in her family, fights and refuses to accept that things have to be this way. And yet all of them still suffer.

All of them still lose.

GRRM shows that no matter how much a woman conforms, and no matter how much a woman rebels, and no matter how much power a woman has within the system, the system will always win. No single person will ever best a centuries-instilled institution of oppression. This is also the reason why Daenerys succeeds, where these equally intelligent and talented women fail: Because she dismantles the system of power entirely. Because she breaks the wheel.

Something sinister is at play anytime someone says that Dettles isn't plausible because Nettles lost Jace and would never betray Rhaenyra.

Something about her being the cunning dragonseed and someone who simply left at the insistence of a prince never coming back onto the narrative doesn't give that. Not once did she check on them after that she just stayed in the Vale with her Dragon and with her cult.

What does Rhaenyra have to do with Nettles sleeping with Daemon, logically?

Cause if it happened, they would have been alone, sent away, with the idea that he was sleeping with Mysaria outside of his marriage. If Daemon wasn't concerned, why would she be? This man was the sole reason her head was struck off in her sleep, mind you.

I'm not saying she didn't care, I'm saying yall overestimate her investment in the emotional baggage of white people because you all are centring those white people in her narrative.

Lay it to rest. She is not Rhaenyra’s consideration. Why would Rhaenyra be hers?

i think the whole situation of the driftmark incident was far more interesting in the books because it was really so layered and just as much when you read it, full of bias from the writers of the dance and just as much, perspectives by readers themselves when analyzing.

whole reason for aemond being mad about it was the fact that his father made a comment regarding his boldness. mind you he was a ten year old. viserys was making a comment about his ten year old son and if he would be bold enough to claim a dragon when they get to dragonstone.

a lot from the generation viserys belonged to got their dragon when they were a bit older. viserys bonded with balerion when he was sixteen, rhaenys bonded with meleys at thirteen. viserys's own parents got their dragons later in their teens.

so its best to assume that viserys is not making an antagonizing comment, but wondering if aemond would take the initiative so young regarding getting a dragon. example, rhaenyra bonded with syrax at seven. he's wondering if aemond would be the same when they get to dragonstone.

so aemond's ten year old self perceived this as antagonizing because out of his siblings, he was the only one without one. even his nephews hatched dragons from the egg. he wanted something so badly, he did not care what it took to get it. even if it hurt other people.

dragons cannot be stolen, dragons bond with anyone they deem worthy. BUT aemond chose the wrong time and the wrong place. he chose a FUNERAL. now, aemond knew he was a guest in driftmark. he should have been on his best behaviour but instead, he chose to prove his dad 'wrong'.

now its mentioned in this passage of the book that dragons are dangerous. and it was right for aemond to assume that without oversight, without dragon keepers, he would not be allowed near a dragon. not lest without any training either. but three year old joff warns him.

remember, joff was only three year old but was well aware about how dragons behave as he has his own named tyraxes. so he was worried that his uncle would put himself in danger knowing there is no oversight. but all aemond cared about was this opportunity and feared getting caught.

so what does ten year old aemond does to his three year old nephew? he pushes him hard onto the dragon dropplings and young joff began to cry because aemond decided to hurt him for warning him about an ancient war dragon who could have killed him.

joff was just hurt by his uncle rushed off to find his brothers, tell them what happened and asked them for help. they ran off to the pit with wooden swords. these kids were younger but they were furious about what happened to their brother and attacked much older aemond.

but because aemond was much older than them, he fought hard against the younger boys and broke luke's nose with a punch and was able to break the wooden sword from joff and hit jace with it to the point he was on his knees. the two boys were scared and backed off.

now they were frightened, aemond laughed and mocked their parentage. jace, being able to understand it, lunged at aemond again. this was a boy who just finished burying his dad and these rumours might be unpleasant to hear for him. but aemond was stronger and attacked jace HARD.

thats when lucerys decided to unsheath a hidden blade, too scared that his brother would DIE by aemond's hand. the fight continued for a while but the stableboy found them and stopped the fight from continuing.

now what was interesting about the people who wrote these accounts is the fact that they focused heavily on the bastard accusations MORE than the fact that the velaryon boys would have lost a brother had lucerys not acted quickly. so it was odd that rhaenyra herself focuses on a different factor than her kids being safe and sound.

the fact that her sons were being called bastards first before they were near death from what aemond did to them was baffling to me. it would make more sense that rhaenyra would be calling for aemond to be questioned sharply for what he did to her sons, the bastardry rumours was secondary but just as much important—but not as dire as the lives of her young sons.

it is still relevant because these rumours were put to bed many MANY years ago when the eggs of the velaryon boys hatched. it was the greens who continued perpetuating it and being head of the green faction, it would be alicent helping spread these rumours at court.

that is why it makes sense that aemond points to his brother aegon, because both of them would have known that it is their mother that was spreading the rumours and it would be aemond covering up for his mother and how it was her who was the complete source of the rumours.

it is also worth noting that it is alicent who started calling for violence first as well, asking that the eye of lucerys be taken out. her first response to the fact that her son had nearly killed someone and how others took self defense was to have someone maimed.

she does not admit that her son started it, that her son disrespected house velaryon by what he was doing, or that he was also trying to get someone killed - no, instead she asks that someone take a five year old's eye for defending his brother from murder.

it is also interesting that viserys put his foot down here and said that any person who decides to say any more words about bastardry rumours should have their tongue removed. it seems viserys is doing something here, but it doesnt apply internally as the strife only continues.

because aemond did not learn his lesson nor does he apologize, all he says is that it doesn't matter that his eye was cut out. his foolishness, his greed, led him to vhagar, an ancient war dragon. and it was fair to him that his choice had an equal price. which he later recants

because this is part of the reason why aemond attacks lucerys later on at storms end. even when he brags that his dragon was worth it, it is clear that his choice at driftmark affects him, because the control over his body was taken by his choice and he likes power and control.

that being said, i think this could have been adapted for the television show because these layers make it more interesting. just as much human as what they wanna force in the television show, but way more interesting to me. human choices are still part of humanity. its the very layers of shadows humans want to not consider human, because its terrifying. but to deny it and just change it would be to deny humans of the layers they conflict with everyday. its a shame, to have not been shown this in the show.

The fact the fandom barely talks about Mysaria is a disgrace, because she is so damn fascinating.

We have all these characters who were born into privilege in one way or another, and then you have this woman of color who is associated with the most feared man of the realm, who turns out to be the king's brother. However, she's probably the only person amongst Daemon's company who didn't join him to gain power, or wealth, or rank, but because she genuinely loved him, whether platonically or erotically. And yet, she has so much more to lose than all the goldcloacks who joined him.

While the most powerful people of the realm fear Daemon, they are not scared to attack her, because, in their own words, she's a "whore". She is not a lady of a noble family, she's not even Westerosi. She is a prey of choice of their attacks, and she's aware of that. It doesn't mean she's not hurt by this sexualisation and objectification, though. In Fire and Blood, it can actually be debated whether she's actually a prostitute or not, she's just called a dancer, and the Hightowers call her a whore, and her Lyseni origin is quite highlighted as well. Being called "the White Worm" is not a positive nickname as well. Either way, she was doomed to be objectified, and she fully expected it. And yet, that did not stop her to follow her lover.

So far, she was taking a backseat in the political intrigue of Westeros, knowing how much risk it could bring her, and that is why she was hurt to be used in Daemon's attention-seeking shenaningans. In the patriarcal world she lives in, she has to be protected by him (definitely not by choice, more a necessity), and she cannot afford to be a tool, for self-preservation. Beyond that, she doesn't want to, she already was a slave countless times. Being in a relationship with Daemon is freedom for her, it has to be, and the saddest part is that Daemon doesn't realize how much at risk she is. For this Prince, who never felt much danger, having a lover is just another pleasure he can get easily, but for her, it is basically a mean of survival, that could be temporary as well, if he ever get bored of her.

With Rhaenys and Aemma, she's the only character who's fully aware of the shackles of the Westerosi patriarchy, where women are tools and property. But, unlike these two women of Targaryen blood, she has to scramble to survive. And, knowing her role in the future, it will be interesting how she will influence Rhaenyra.

alright several rambly drafts later, I still try to formulate my thoughts on a show I haven’t watched yet but I think the show is doing Alicent a good service not only for fleshing but also highlighting the Targaryen belief in their own superiority as their ultimate downfall.

The show uses the narrative threat of misogyny to stitch together the events from Fire and Blood but I also think that naming the show “House of the Dragon” isn’t coincidental. The Dance of the Dragons is a highlight of misogyny fueling Westerosi society, the framing of a family drama highlighting possible paths and dead ends of women in such a society.  But I’m not here to talk about the themes of misogyny and it’s many layers but the theme of the Targaryen beliefs in their own superiority which will lay the foundation of Rhaenyra’s downfall, later Aerys. So yes, Fire and Blood was written in the narrative of a character who’s part of guild strongly biased against the Targaryen as well as magic, trying to examine different highly subjective historical records and anecdotes. Still, I think there’s a good reason why in the later record of the Dance of Dragons does not so much focus on personal motivation like when characterizing the family rift before the war. Instead we get very gruesome accounts of the destruction and war crimes committed in Tumbletone, King’s Landing, and the Riverlands, the aftermath of the was still causing destruction, the Iron Men having become the genie out of the bottle, only highly traumatized children left behind. I don’t think the the themes of misogyny and critique of monopoly on power (namely the power monopoly of the Targaryen’s) are mutually exclusive, actually the dance of the Dragon highlighting misogynistic machinations can occur due to Rhaenyra’s birth. No other family has so much power, not only in loyalists but in terms of weapons of mass destruction in the shape of dragons, so the highlight of misogyny couldn’t be so apparent. The frame of a family drama allows for a close, intimate characterization about women navigating a misogynist society. Outside of the frame of a family frame their personal drama causes war crimes, destruction all for the race for power. In that sense I found the scene in which Alicent accuses Rhaenyra to “do as she pleases without sacrifice or duty” very interesting. As many analysis broke down is it a telling characterization of Alicent being trapped in her societal role, I think Alicent correctly points out a flaw of Rhaenyra’s if not in the the Targaryen’s doings. Alicent does everything by the book, giving birth to many heirs, looking beautiful as society expects of a woman and still she’s dubbed Alicent Hightower in Fire and Blood, she remains an outsider even though doing everything expected of her. While, yes, Rhaenyra having an active love life, having bastards like many otherwise respected Lords, is no indication of her political abilities (the narrative of Fire and Blood alludes to her being much better suited than Aemond or Aegon II), she does seem to only allow her actions for herself because of her inherited name. Also partly because she grew up with Viserys letting a lot of things for which larger society judges her slide. What I want to get at, outside the family frame, Rhaenyra is still a Targaryen, seeing her actions for her sake as justified. Lately I stumbled upon a post speculating that the fact Rhaenyra not being able to establish female inheritance as new law against her counsel is a hollow victory, as Rhaenyra would be the only woman temporarily winning in a conflict originating in misogyny. I could neither agree nor disagree to this prediction because the show does thematically rearrange and reframe book events, which is seems to do very thoughtfully, the books narrative certainly opening up this possible reading but... in the continuation of F&B the narrative speculates Rhaenyra to narrowly focus on her sitting on the Throne, focusing on her victory. Then there is also how she actually does as she pleases but judging others for the same things or if they are beneath her. There’s this excellent post about the possible symbolism of Nettles which got me considering the Targaryen mindset in the first place. Rhaenyra’s first three sons are obviously bastards. When they are accused of being bastards she sends out Daemon to kill Corlys’ nephew, even Viserys ushers punishments against those claiming Rhaenyra’s sons to be bastards. Rhaenyra committing social infringement is treated by her and her father as untouchable. Yet the bastards of the Dragon seed are the first to receive unfavourable treatment. Character flaws aside, Ulf White and Hugh Hammer are treated as tacticle figures to be used, their promised rewards getting constantly delayed despite the undeniable advantages they bring towards Rhaenyra’s warfare. And who gets suspected of treason after White and Hammer switch sides? Mouse’s bastard sons. The linked post already said everything so well about Nettles, but all in all Rhaenyra loosing dragon riders, i.e. strong warfare assets is due to her narrow view on who could be seen worthy of trust due to their birth, her believing Daemon remaining loyal because she looks down on Nettles for so many classist and racist reasons. If nothing else, there’s the death of the dragons by the angry mob in King’s Landing. Rhaenyra believes so strongly in her dragons, the source of power and symbol of her house being untouchable that the angry population of King’s Landing killing them comes to an absolute shock. In that sense, the still outsider of the family Alicent, the woman who’s marrying into the family without any previous family ties, who can’t get into the family dynamic, she and her children are the ones seeing the freedom the Targaryen family members can enjoy without barely any consequences while she is not given such freedom not only because of societal expectations for women but also because she isn’t actually let into the Targaryen circle.  I neither like nor dislike Rhaenyra I’m just super interested in the shift in perspective in how the Targaryen’s race for power, focus on themselves, causes their downfall, kills their source of power (dragons) but also looses them allegiances from those they look down upon, and act as if their flaws are untouchable but judge others for them. The family had to invent an entire doctrine of their exceptionalism, propagated by faith, yet the later F&B records lend an ear to the civilians dying, causing the downfall of Rhaenyra’s side, a barely known woman killing Dalton Greyjoy who terrorized the Western coast, undermining the narrative the Targaryen’s of almost godhood the Targaryens cultivate for themselves.

To the people who claim that Aemond is an “upgraded” version of Daemon, please remember that throughout history, Aemond is remembered for only two things:

1. That he murdered Lucerys Velaryon in cold blood and stupidly started the whole civil war (Aemond the Kinslayer)

2. That he had one eye (Aemond One-Eye).

In the meantime, Daemon is remembered for:

1. Having defeated the Crabfeeder and having won the war in the Stepstones;

2. Being the first Prince Consort to a ruling Queen;

3. Being the most feared man in the Realm at the time of the Dance of the Dragons;

4. Being the wielder of Dark Sister;

5. Being the best Lord Commander the City Watch ever had;

6. Being called ‘Prince of the City’ by the smallfolk who adored him;

7. Being the father of two Kings.

So, don’t insult the great Prince Daemon Targaryen by comparing him to that mindless, anger-driven wannabe.

patterns of abuse with jaehaerys

this post made me deeply depressed and i reread f&b which was my first mistake.

tldr i’m making the argument that jaehaerys definitely sexually abused saera and alysanne, and likely viserra and gael, and also i hate this man. if you disagree and want to say so *nicely* that’s cool but if you hardcore love jae and don’t want to hear criticism, maybe just scroll past bc i’m not nice to him at all (obviously, i’m accusing him of csa lol).

breaking this down by each woman, so there’s 6 sections: saera, viserra, daella, gael, alysanne, and alicent.

saera targaryen

If she were the king’s firstborn, or better still his only child, she would be well content. Instead she finds herself the ninthborn, with six living siblings who are older than her and even more adored. Aemon is to be king, Baelon most like will be his Hand, Alyssa may be all her mother is and more, Vaegon is more learned than she is, Maegelle is holier, and Daella…when does a day go by when Daella is not in need of comfort? And whilst she is being soothed, Saera is being ignored. Such a fierce little thing she is, they say, she has no need of comfort. They are wrong in that, I fear. All men need comfort.

that’s septon barth’s opinion on her and barth is always right. simply put, she’s a deeply neglected child who acts like a brat to get her parents attention because she’s learned the only way they’ll pay attention to her is if she’s causing a problem.

Before she was eleven, she was stealing wine and ale instead. By twelve, she was like as not to arrive drunk when summoned to the sept for prayer.

The king’s half-witted fool, Tom Turnip, was the victim of many of her japes, and her unwitting catspaw for others. Once, before a great feast where many lords and ladies were to be in attendance, she persuaded Tom that it would be much funnier if he performed naked. It was not well received.

stealing alcohol at 10 and being a committed alcoholic at 12 is not normal behavior. it is a sign of something deeply at wrong at home. also, the way she kind of, sexually humiliated tom, someone who is too “innocent” to even realize she’s sexually humiliating him…gives me the ick re: how she views sex.

Saera had learned the art of getting anything she wanted from her father: a kitten, a hound, a pony, a hawk, a horse (Jaehaerys did draw a firm line at the elephant). Queen Alysanne was far less gullible, however, and Septon Barth tells us that Saera’s sisters all misliked her to various degrees.

i don’t like this. nothing wrong with giving your child gifts (see ned going above and beyond to get arya not just instruction on how to fight but also a specific style that would gel with being smaller than your average opponent) but in conjunction with “jaehaerys ignores saera unless she’s pressing him for an expensive gift which he immediately gives her and alysanne doesn’t get why he caved so quickly” its an alarming dynamic.

also speaks to how isolated saera specifically was, that the only siblings that like her (aemon and baelon) are usually out and about, and there’s a clear wedge between saera and her sisters, even viserra.

The screams were coming from Tom Turnip, who was lurching helplessly in circles trying to escape from half a dozen naked whores, whilst the patrons of the house laughed uproariously and shouted on the harlots. Jonah Mooton, Red Roy Connington, and Stinger Beesbury were amongst those patrons, each one drunker than the last. They had thought it would be funny to see old Turnip do the deed, Red Roy admitted. Then Jonah Mooton laughed and said the jape had all been Saera’s notion, and what a funny girl she was.

again with sexually humiliating tom.

it continues with her friends. it’s not unusual for a 15 year old girl to want to fool around with other 15 year olds but alys and perri are all guilt ridden and upset and alys is with child. it reminds me a lot of cersei sexually abusing taena in affc. when she’s caught (now, mind you, she’s been marched in front of her parents sitting on the throne and not brought to them in their private rooms. she’s being treated right off the bat as if she’s guilty of a crime and not guilty of being a shitty teenager):

“She went from denial to dismissal to quibbling to contrition to accusation to justification to defiance in the space of an hour, with stops at giggling and weeping along the way,” Septon Barth would write. “She never did it, they were lying, it never happened, how could they believe that, it was just a game, it was just a jape, who said that, that was not how it happened, everyone likes kissing, she was sorry, Peri started it, it was such fun, no one was hurt, no one ever told her kissing was bad, Sweetberry had dared her, she was so ashamed, Baelon used to kiss Alyssa all the time, once she started she did not know how to stop, she was afraid of Stinger, the Mother Above had forgiven her, all the girls were doing it, the first time she was drunk, she had never wanted to, it was what men wanted, Maegelle said the gods forgave all sins, Jonah said he loved her, the gods had made her pretty, it was not her fault, she would be good from now on, it will be as if it never happened, she would marry Red Roy Connington, they had to forgive her, she would never kiss a man again or do any of those other things, it wasn’t her who was with child, she was their daughter, she was their little girl, she was a princess, if she were queen she would do as she liked, why wouldn’t they believe her, they never loved her, she hated them, they could whip her if they wanted but she would never be their slave. She took my breath away, this girl. There was never a mummer in all the land who gave such a performance, but by the end she was exhausted and afraid, and her mask slipped.”

What does Jaehaerys ask after all of this? “Have you given any of these boys your maidenhead?” Her response:

“True?” said Saera. It was in that moment, with that word, that the contempt came out. “No. I gave it to all three. They all think they were the first. Boys are such silly fools.”

Now mind you, Alyssa and Daella have both died of childbirth recently and her parents are mad she had sex as a 16 year old bordering on 17 year old, and not the fact that she like, at best peer pressured her besties into having sex and now one of them is pregnant. jaehaerys has only asked if she’s still a virgin.

“I will be married,” the princess said. “Why shouldn’t I be? You were married at my age. I shall be wedded and bedded, but to whom? Jonah and Roy both love me, I could take one of them, but they are both such boys. Stinger does not love me, but he makes me laugh and sometimes makes me scream. I could marry all three of them, why not? Why should I have just one husband? The Conqueror had two wives, and Maegor had six or eight.”

i keep trying not to give my opinion and just lay it all out but the thing is i’d just be reposting the whole scene because it’s just filled with so much weird sex stuff. if you don’t remember it, go reread it. it doesn’t feel (to me) like regular “george is bad at writing sex” vibes but “george is purposefully trying to skeeve you out” vibes but i am willing to admit i could be wrong and he really just doesn’t understand what he wrote.

anyways remember how i said saera acts out to get attention from her parents? all she’s done here is act out, her “crimes” are basically nonexistent; beyond how alys feels about being pregnant, saera consensually had sex with boys around her age who aren’t married, and then blithely compared herself to some asshole relatives. if your teenager idolizes dick cheney that’s probably worrying but not a crime! this is not how jae treats it however.

When the princess heard his words, she rushed toward him, crying, “Father, Father!” but Jaehaerys turned his back on her, and Gyles Morrigen caught her by the arm and wrenched her away. She would not go of her own accord, so the guards were forced to drag her from the hall, wailing and sobbing and calling for her father.

The king was angry and unyielding, for his shame was deeply felt, and he could not forget Saera’s taunting words about his uncle’s wives. “She is no longer my daughter,” he said more than once. Queen Alysanne could not find it in her heart to be so harsh, however. “

saera tries to escape.

This time the princess was not allowed to return to her own chambers. She was confined to a tower cell instead, with Jonquil Darke guarding her day and night, even in the privy.

Princess Saera watched from the window of her cell. Jonquil Darke, her gaoler, made certain that she did not turn away.

that’s as her dad is murdering stinger btw. is he a creepy 19 year old? yeah. but like, making your 15 year old watch you murder her 19 year old trust fund baby stoner boyfriend sure is something.

so then they sent her to the silent sisters where she’s beaten all the time and has to pray all the time and she runs away, becomes a sex worker and literally never looks back.

The truth did not come out until a year later, when the former princess was seen in a Lysene pleasure garden, still clad as a novice. Queen Alysanne wept to hear it. “They have made our daughter into a whore,” she said. “She always was,” the king replied.

“You need her as a Dornishman needs a pit viper,” Jaehaerys said. “I am sorry. King’s Landing has sufficient whores. I do not wish to hear her name again.”

but before we move on, let’s look at one more related ick, when saera’s sons show up to the great council:

From Essos came three rival competitors, grandsons of King Jaehaerys through his daughter Saera, each sired by a different father. One was said to be the very image of his grandsire in his youth.

after her drinking, acting out, and jaehaerys’ focus on calling her a whore, explicitly pointing out that one of her grandsons looks just like jae is a choice. i know they’re super inbred. it’s still uncomfortable in context.

viserra targaryen

alysanne makes no sense here but i’m just gonna quickly explain instead of lay it out or we will be here all day bc viserra’s engagement is completely nonsensical. theomore manderly is old, ugly, has a shitton of heirs, and viserra clearly doesn’t want to marry him. also if she wanted to be queen, why is she going after baelon, aemon is still alive. anyways jaehaerys is no help here, then she goes to baelon for help, but she’s also super drunk.

Frustrated, Viserra next turned to her brother Baelon in hopes of rescue, if court gossip can be believed. Slipping past his guards into his bedchamber one night, she disrobed and waited for him, making free with the prince’s wine whilst she lingered. When Prince Baelon finally appeared, he found her drunk and naked in his bed and sent her on her way. The princess was so unsteady that she required the help of two maids and a knight of the Kingsguard to get her safely back to her own apartments.

she gets drunk with some friends again, goes riding, breaks her neck. i wanted to point out this pattern of drinking and acting out at a young age. as well as this pattern of targaryen daughters who aren’t “meant” for a brother and are promised to men who are old and with heirs

daella targaryen

i wanted to add daella because her getting married at 15 makes as little sense as viserra, and her match to a old man with several heirs is equally nonsensical. but also this:

“I would never marry her,” the boy said, in front of half the court. “She can barely read. She should find some lord in need of stupid children, for that’s the only sort he will ever have of her.”

where did vaegon get that mouth.

Daella was not clever, even her septa had to admit. She learned to read after a fashion, but haltingly, and without full comprehension. She could not seem to commit even the simplest prayers to memory. She had a sweet voice, but was afraid to sing; she always got the words wrong. She loved flowers, but was frightened of gardens; a bee had almost stung her once.

Jaehaerys, even more than Alysanne, despaired of her. “She will not even speak to a boy. How is she to marry? We could entrust her to the Faith, but she does not know her prayers, and her septa says that she cries when asked to read aloud from The Seven-Pointed Star.”

The queen always rose to her defense. “Daella is sweet and kind and gentle. She has such a tender heart. Give me time, and I will find a lord to cherish her. Not every Targaryen needs to wield a sword and ride a dragon.”

so daella is 12 at this point.

Her sixteenth nameday was fast approaching, and with it her womanhood. Queen Alysanne was at her wit’s end, and the king had lost his patience. On the first day of the 80th year since Aegon’s Conquest, he told the queen he wanted Daella wed before the year’s end. “If she wants I can find a hundred men and line them up before her naked, and she can pick the one she likes,” he said. “I would sooner she wed a lord, but if she prefers a hedge knight or a merchant or Pate the Pig Boy, I am past the point of caring, so long as she picks someone.”

i just don’t like this. other “simple” targs are not required to marry, like vaella and aelora, two of daeron ii’s grandfaughters so i don’t get why daella is pressured into marrying before she’s even of age. at least jae 2 forced rhaella and aerys because of a prophecy? what is jae’s reasoning for so sexualizing his daughter?

gael targaryen

this one is definitely a reach but i’d like to point out that this is basically all we know about gael:

Princess Gael, a sweet, shy child of seven, became the queen’s constant shadow and support, even sharing her bed at night.

and our information on how she dies is so shady:

A sweet-natured girl, but frail and somewhat simpleminded, she remained with the queen long after her other children had grown and gone, but in 99 AC she vanished from court, and soon afterward it was announced that she had died of a summer fever. Only after both her parents were gone did the true tale come out. Seduced and abandoned by a traveling singer, the princess had given birth to a stillborn son, then, overwhelmed by grief, walked into the waters of Blackwater Bay and drowned.

how does gael get pregnant by a traveling singer when she never leaves her mother’s side? why doesn’t anyone in court know gael got pregnant and killed herself until after aly and jae both die and how was this even found out?

am i implying that jaehaerys sexually abused all four of his daughters? yes because he literally sexually abuses his own wife.

alysanne targaryen

“I am forty-two years old,” she told the king. “You must be content with the children I have given you. I am more suited to be a grandmother than a mother now, I fear.”

King Jaehaerys did not share her certainty. “Our mother, Queen Alyssa, was forty-six when she gave birth to Jocelyn,” he pointed out to Grand Maester Elysar. “The gods may not be done with us.” He was not wrong. The very next year, the Grand Maester informed Queen Alysanne that she was once more with child, to her surprise and dismay.

he uses the birth that killed their mother and that is condemned by rhaena and alysanne as reckless and cruel of rogar to force on her. that birth.

at this point as well, he had abused saera and daella, then they’re gone, then viserra starts drinking and dies, then jae marital rapes aly into having gael, giving him access to another young girl to abuse…i’m aware this is a very uncharitable reading of him but…

alicent hightower (and kind of alyssa targaryen)

Ser Otto’s precocious fifteen-year-old daughter, Alicent, became his constant companion, fetching His Grace his meals, reading to him, helping him to bathe and dress himself. The Old King sometimes mistook her for one of his daughters, calling her by their names; near the end, he grew certain she was his daughter Saera, returned to him from beyond the narrow sea.

saera is the one he fixated on yet again but notable that he’s fixated on his daughters as he dies and not his sons, despite jaehaerys turning to drink after aemon died bc he was so upset.

He announced his intention to wed Lady Alicent of House Hightower, the clever and lovely eighteen-year-old daughter of the King’s Hand, the girl who had read to King Jaehaerys as he lay dying.

The Hightowers of Oldtown were an ancient and noble family, of impeccable lineage; there could be no possible objection to the king’s choice of bride. Even so, there were those who murmured that the Hand had risen above himself, that he had brought his daughter to court with this in mind. A few even cast doubt on Lady Alicent’s virtue, suggesting she had welcomed King Viserys into her bed even before Queen Aemma’s death. (These calumnies were never proved, though Mushroom repeats them in his Testimony and goes so far as to claim that reading was not the only service Lady Alicent performed for the Old King in his bedchamber.)

i know it’s just mushroom being a perv but a rumor that 15 year old alicent “serviced” jaehaerys existing besides rumors that he mistook 15 year old alicent for the daughter he last saw when she was 17 - and viserra was 15, gael 19, and daella 15, all around alicent’s age and all died before age 20. all the targaryen girls that weren’t born “for” a brother exit the narrative after some sort of sexual abuse that centers around jae, as teenagers; daenerys was born for aemon, alyssa for baelon, and maegelle for vaegon before they both fucked off and maegelle was too pious (and too old). this idea of being “for” a brother leads directly to alyssa’s death before 30:

“You were made for battles, and I was made for this. Viserys and Daemon and Aegon, that’s three. As soon as I am well, let’s make another. I want to give you twenty sons. An army of your own!” It was not to be. Alyssa Targaryen had a warrior’s heart in a woman’s body, and her strength failed her. She never fully recovered from Aegon’s birth, and died within the year at only four-and-twenty.

and alysanne being “for” jaehaerys is how he excusing sexually abusing her into a risky pregnancy. essentially what i fear is that because saera, daella, viserra, and gael aren’t “for” someone, jaehaerys gets it into his mind that that are for him. even without him raping them tho, that subtext is there! he is entitled to saera’s virginity and calls her a whore multiple times, even decades after she’s left, and murders her boyfriend in front of her. he claims a weird sexual ownership over his neurodivergent daughter daella and his alcoholic, depressed daughter viserra, and we get zero information on gael’s pregnancy or his reaction to it. but jaehaerys deciding his daughters are “for” him certainly has a basis in canon just judging from the erratic and worrying behavior of his younger daughters.

jaehaerys is a creep and i hate him and i don’t know how much of this is on purpose (like, will aegon vi or dany find out jaehaerys was a shady pedo and it shatters their world? will dunk and egg find it out and it affects their plot somehow? did george just put it in there to make a comment on power and monarchy and misogyny, similar to aegon iv raping the bracken women? or is just there for window dressing creepiness, like “i will pepper in the fact that jaehaerys is sexually obsessed with his daughters” thing?) or if george just made jaehaerys sexually obsessed with his daughters on accident?

on the one hand, it seems out of character for george. he romanticizes drogo thru dany’s eyes but it’s clear he’s meant to be seen as a creep (dany talking about being pregnant followed by “she had just turned 14” is sickeningly jarring for a reason) and also, drogo dies bc of his own pride. sansa doesn’t like any of the old dudes touching her; she is at least marginally freaked out by her wedding night, the unkiss, and lf & dontos taking liberties with her, and rightly. the story that’s told about the mountain raping a girl and making the father pay him is meant to disgust us. the walk of shame is a harrowing chapter to read, because whatever cersei’s crimes, this sexual humiliation is not something she deserves. on and on. yes, we all hate the way arya is sexualized in the mercy chapter, but crucially, she’s not blithely and happily seducing these pervs, she’s going hard candy on their asses. is this just messy set up for something like that?? i think, given how little dany knows about her family’s crimes that somehow learning jae sexually abused (and maybe even impregnated) his own daughters after she herself experiences sexual abuse would be huge. the same goes for aegon vi learning that sexual abuse runs rampant in his family tree; would he empathize with saera hiding out in essos to escape the sexual abuse of her father, see some of elia and his own plight in her? in gael?

or did george really just. not realize how sexually obsessed jaehaerys was with his daughters?

idk how to end this. where’s the winds of winter george i need answers.

I have seen too many people describe Baela and Arya as "masculine" but I don't think they are. They are not as traditionally feminine as their sisters, but that's a far cry from being "masculine". The thing is that Baela and Arya are children when described as such.

Baela and Arya are active and adventurous girls who like to wrestle, and ride horses and that don't care about getting dirty. They also seem to dislike things that are the ideal of femininity in Westeros like sewing and singing.

In Westeros gender roles are very rigid and willfulness is considered a masculine trait. Baela and Arya start the story by doing child things that don't fit into the Westeros ideal. I don't think they are "masculine" at all, I think they are just kids that don't fit in.

In your opinion, would Princess Viserra's fate have changed if she had been promised to Lord Manderly's heir, and not to him?

That is to say, if marriage to the Manderlys were necessary to formalize a pact with the North, perhaps a handsome husband of the same age who would make her Lady of White Harbor would be more interesting to the young princess.

I won't hold back. NOTHING about Viserra's storyline makes any sense short of all the characters having a stroke.

Perceptive and compassionate Alysanne, who previously demonstrated considerable matchmaking skills, suddenly becomes very bad at it. (Don't get me started on Elio Garcia's attempt to defend Alysanne's OOC behavior as her being jealous of her own daughter's beauty.)

Jaehaerys suddenly becomes an absentee father from the 1950s rather than, you know, a medieval king for whom his daughter's marriage is of the utmost political importance.

Septon Barth? Grand Maester Elysar? Both MIA.

Theomore Manderly? If he was truly canny, he would have seen the offer for what it was and declined it.

Its true, the best way to tie the North closer to the south (and more specifically the Iron Throne) short of House Stark is House Manderly. However, marrying Viserra, a princess (and the prettiest one at that) to Theomore entirely defeats that purpose. One, a fat man old enough to be your grandfather is hardly appealing on a personal level, especially to a teen princess who knows just how attractive she is. Two, any children Viserra had would come behind four wives' worth of stepchildren, practically guaranteeing that the future Lords of White Harbor won't share any direct blood ties to House Targaryen, which brings me to my third point. Marrying Viserra to Theomore more or less dooms Viserra's line to obscurity and she herself to a life of dependency on the charity of her stepson.

What, then, would have made way more sense? Marrying her to Desmond, who, as Theomore's great-grandson, would probably be fairly close in age to her, not to mention higher in the succession.

Now, to answer your question, yes I absolutely do believe Viserra might have lived a longer (and perhaps even fulfilling) life if her parents had picked someone other than Theomore Manderly to be her husband. Remember, the whole reason she was even out and about the night of her death was because she wanted to have fun one last time before resigning herself to her fate. If she had instead been looking forward to her wedding she wouldn't have had any incentive to sneak out, which makes the chances of her suffering a tragic accident the way she did in OTL astronomically lower.

Thanks for the question, @diegoedil

B&C and Helaena discourse is on a rise and yall know that's my roman empire so i WILL be giving my two cents (for the thousandth time😼)

First off, B&C

I see a lot of people claiming B&C was the Greens fault, but when you take a second to think you will see that nothing the Greens did as a whole caused B&C. It simply would not have happened if Aemond (1 singular green) had not killed Lucerys for taking his eye. (i believe this excuse comes more from a "well you reap what you sow this is what you get for usurping rhaenyra" mindset rather than thinking ALL the greens are directly to blame for B&C but whatevs) People argue it was Aegon's fault, too, because he celebrated Luke's death with a feast, but that's actually a headcanon. F&B states Aegon celebrated Luke's death, but it skips over any offense it caused Rhaenyra and Daemon. It only says that after learning of Luke's DEATH (not the feast) Daemon sends a letter telling Rhaenyra Luke would be avenged. It was not the feast it was the boy's death that led to B&C.

People also have been saying B&C was necessary and it simply wasn't. Jaehaerys was entirely unrelated to any issue regarding Luke, therefore it wasn't even really avenging him. Luke wasn't actually avenged until Aemond (his killer) died. B&C was not necessary to avenge Luke—it was more of an intimidation tactic on Daemon's behalf.

As for Helaena, people are saying she should've taken her kids, flown to Dragonstone, and bent the knee as per Rhaenyra's peace terms.

That's kind of just dumb lol. Rhaenyra's terms were not individual, she wanted ALL of her siblings to go to her and bend the knee, not just one. If Helaena went to Dragonstone by herself, Aegon would still be Rhaenyra's enemy. Helaena and her children, Aegon's heirs, would become high profile hostages.

Also, Helaena is the queen of the Green Faction. She was crowned by Alicent alongside Aegon. Nothing in F&B implies she's NOT in support of Aegon. If anything, she's passive. She councils him against his stupidity, but that doesn't mean she's a secret supporter of Rhaenyra.

The Greens also happen to be her closest family. Her mom and brothers—people she grew up with. If I remember correctly, she used to visit Alicent in the Tower of the Hand with her children every night. She and Aegon shared a bed until her son was killed. She was described as a happy girl, and if she was miserable, she still clearly held love for her family.

Rhaenyra, however, is a stranger to her. Not just a stranger, but also someone that would mock her mother and her siblings at court.

She had no reason to go to Rhaenyra when the war began.

People are also quite weird about the topic of her suicide, but seeing as suicide is a real issue in a way that usurping, sending assassins after a child, and feeding a boy to a dragon are NOT I won't address that. You are weird if you be laughing about suicide tho ngl.

FINAL PSA: A lot of yall like to go "I love Helaena, she so sweet and gentle and innocent and kind and cute and she's the only green I love BUT..." Yall dont like Helaena and yall CAN admit it. She's a fictional character you dont have to pretend to like her just because you have a moral superiority complex.

book alicent and rhaenyra showing up to dinner in each others colours really was gay as shit actually like... did they coordinate it? how? if they supposedly never sought out each others company nor saw eye to eye on anything? who suggested it?? who approached the other to discuss it?? were they ironing out the logistics of it together? if it was for viserys sake then did they speak of him? of alicents marriage? did they allow for any emotional catharsis at all?? if not, how do you convince your most bitter opponent to put up a front WITH you? and if they didnt coordinate thats even MORE gay they just show up to dinner and catch each other across the room and rhaenyras in green and alicents in black?? whose to say they didnt truly want peace? maybe it wasnt a facade. what an 'oh?' moment if they just Happened to have the same exact idea to begin to rebuild the bridge and the INTIMACY of that ??? there is not a single way i could think of this going that doesnt include some kind of ineradicable epiphany

Jaehaerys was such a shit dad he fucked up all of his children thank god for Alysanne

anon i am so sorry to ruin this for you, but alysanne really wasn't a good mom or grandmom to specifically the women within her family. she didn't have as much power as viserys, but she managed to use her power to control her female descendants' marriages to straight up ruin most of their lives 😬

she allowed 16yo daella to be married off to a 36yo rodrik arryn (she did give daella two other options, but they were both fully grown men). teenage daella soon fell pregnant and wrote to her mother saying she was scared for her life. she died in childbirth.

she betrothed 15yo viserra to the already "old" and "very stout" lord manderly, who'd already gone through four wives, and who viserra made clear she did not want to marry. she did this even though viserra was young because she disliked that viserra was currying favor with men due to her beauty. this directly pushed viserra to slip her guards and try to enjoy some freedom before being married to a fat old grandpa, which led to the accident that killed her.

maegelle was kind of alright but she was raised to be a silent sister from birth, she never had a choice in it. alysanne decided her entire life's course for her as a baby and she was never allowed to consider any other path.

gael honestly had a very clingy relationship with alysanne because by the time she was born alysanne had already lost several children. i think alysanne using gael as an emotional crutch for losing children directly contributed to gael later killing herself at 19yo after losing a baby.

alyssa was allowed to marry baelon when she was just 15yo. some people say it was nice of alysanne to let alyssa marry who she wanted, but given alysanne's track record i think alyssa's wants didn't factor into this decision as much as baelon's did. and regardless, allowing alyssa to marry and become pregnant so young put her at risk for the childbirth complications that later killed her.

saera i could write an entire essay about. she was constantly ignored by her parents since she was the ninthborn and a girl, and was punished when this neglect made her act out for attention. jaehaerys was willing to let saera marry one of the three men she favored, but alysanne refused. when saera was found to have kissed and possibly slept with these men, alysanne said she should be punished, and stood by while saera was forced to watch from afar as her own father killed one of her male companions. she then forced saera to join the faith, where she was abused for over a year (her head was shaved, she was physically beaten, etc.). i don't blame saera for running away and remaining no contact with alysanne for the rest of alysanne's life.

alysanne even did her grandchildren dirty. she allowed 11yo aemma to be married to viserys, and later allowed viserys to consummate the marriage when aemma was just 13yo even though maesters warned them it would irreparably damage aemma's reproductive system and body. this caused aemma lifelong health issues that later killed her. like this is literally what happened with daella, only much worse, and they absolutely knew better but didn't care enough about poor aemma's safety.

listen, i appreciate the things alysanne accomplished as jaehaerys's advisor. she was definitely the biggest force of good for women that we ever got under the targaryens (save for daenerys). but it's not a coincidence that alysanne's relationships with all of her daughters ended in tragedy when her relationships with her sons did not.

she is complicit in the unhappiness and death that faced her descendants like daella, alyssa, and aemma for allowing them to become pregnant so young. she was slut-shamey towards both viserra and saera for daring to have agency over their sexuality, even more so than jaehaerys which is really saying something. she had a talent for alienating her daughters and making choices for their lives without regard for their happiness. contrast this to her relationships with her sons, whom she allowed the agency she never granted her daughters: she allowed both aemon and baelon to choose their own wives, rather than following precedent that would dictate aemon marry alyssa.

basically, alysanne was definitely a feminist when it came to policy, but her internalized misogyny jumped out HARD when it came to her family's affairs. and her female descendants paid the price for it, with their happiness, with their lives, or both.

NETTLES AND RACE.

It is a shorter analysis but a needed one. The way that Nettles race plays into her interpretation throughout the narrative is interesting.

Obviously, she is a mystery throughout the narrative. We don't know much about her, and what little we do know is often contradictory within the written narrative. But her race plays a part in that.

When we look at who's writing the story, we are being told what occurred through very specific lenses. Septon Eustace, Maester Gyldayn, and Mushroom are all men, from different backgrounds, but men in this world none the less, white men (andals) at that.

So we see their bias when it comes to Rhaenyra no longer being beautiful because she kept the weight after having children.

Or with their depictions of Alicent and Helaena or the twins with their one isn't fit to be heir she won't listen, yadda, yadda, yadda....

Bias occurs.

With Nettles in the narrative, however, her being a woman, poor and black, all play a role in the intersection of her identity.

There is nothing about her when it comes to her description that suggests she's dirty, filthy, or promiscuous, and the people who describe her as such weren't around her in the time period they were describing.

'She slept with shepherds for sheep' while having the markings of a thief in their world.

She is filthy, yet the only time we get an in world description of her cleaning habits, she's bathing with a prince and getting things (hair brush, mirror) to maintain her appearance.

Like, I hate to be the one to say it, but let's think about these conclusions logically.

There would be an intersectional bias with Nettles in the narrative. She's looked down on because Septon Eustace decides to play guessing games with her backstory and then uses his own unconfirmed deduction to say what could've happened in Maidenpool.

Even in Maidenpool, they call her the brown child, Daemon cares for.

I don't think this is something that exists in a bubble, and I think the narrators of fire and blood are given a clear bias so before we jump to conclusions about Nettles, remember that the way she is written isn't from her perspective or with her input. It's by men who didn't know her and never recount an in person interaction with her. Not even a quote she might have said.

Also, not to hype up George, but the man clearly loves his history, so I beg anyone who thinks I'm reaching to look up how black women (any woc could work) are written by white scholars and then how mistresses are written about in history and let the thought marinate.

patriarchal butchery against women: history and rhaenyra

‘some accounts say it was ser alfred broome who had hold of her arm, others name the two toms, tanglebeard the father and tangletongue the son. ser marston waters stood witness as well, clad in a white cloak, for king aegon had named him to his kingsguard for his valor. yet neither waters nor any of the other knights and lords present in the yard spoke a word of protest as king aegon ii delivered his half=sister to his dragon.

sunfyre, it is said, did not seem at first to take any interest in the offering, until broome pricked the queen’s breast with his dagger. the smell of blood roused the dragon, who sniffed at her grace, then bathed her in a blast of flame, so suddenly that ser alfred’s cloak caught fire as he leapt away. rhaenyra targaryen had time to raise her head toward the sky and shriek out one last curse upon her half-brother before sunfyre’s jaws closed round her, tearing off her arm and shoulder.'

– rhaenyra overthrown; fire and blood

the profound horror evoked by the tragic demise of rhaenyra targaryen defies comprehension, leaving a profound impact on my emotions. the series of events surrounding her death is almost unimaginable, a harrowing sequence that eludes full understanding. the manner in which she was forcibly restrained, her young son is subdued away from her, bespeaks a brutality beyond words. her trusted allies' betrayal, the seemingly noble and upright men remaining silent witnesses, and the heart-wrenching scene of rhaenyra's final moments, held before a dragon, paints a tableau of unfathomable cruelty.

even when the dragon hesitated to devour her entirely, the violence escalated to such an extent that her wounds bleed profusely, eventually piquing the dragon's interest. the collective gaze fixed on the gruesome sight as the dragon immolated and consumed her, her helpless son held in the grip of men, forced to bear witness to his mother's horrific end.

the entirety of this scene is an unsettling dissonance, a collage of terror that leads one to question whether such a grisly fate could have truly befallen women. the spectacle of violence inflicted with such vehemence seems almost inconceivable when directed towards women. that  all of it is a fraction of grrm’s own imagination. unfortunately, the veracity of this account cannot be denied. numerous women throughout both ancient and medieval epochs have been subjected to the barbaric act of execution for various motives.

upon delving into historical accounts, one is confronted with a cathartic realization that this violence appears to be a recurring toll exacted upon women who dared to seek autonomy and agency in their respective eras, regardless of the epoch in question. it is a recurring and undeniable theme, wherein women are invariably thrust into a vortex of unremitting violence, an undeniable and tragic consequence of their aspirations for a more empowered existence. a recurring theme which of course stems from the echoes of patriarchal control–which still continues to this day.

in my previous writings concerning patriarchy and its implications on women's agency, we delve into the prevailing belief held by men throughout history that asserts their innate and superior importance within the community. when viewed through this lens, a multitude of factors emerge to elucidate the systematic erosion of women's authority and agency.

within this context, the fragility inherent in men's perspectives becomes evident, not only in their perception of the external world but also in their self-concept. examining the methods they have historically employed to consolidate exclusive control over authority and agency across the diverse tapestry of human society reveals an underlying fear of losing their dominant position.

patriarchy, deeply ingrained in societal structures, has perpetuated a paradigm where men's inherent superiority has been upheld as an enduring truth. this belief has been reinforced over generations, giving rise to the marginalization and subjugation of women across various cultural and historical contexts. the tenacious grip of patriarchy on social norms and power dynamics has led to the disempowerment of women, often limiting their roles to subservient positions and stripping them of agency.

as we analyze history, we discern that men's efforts to maintain sole authority and agency have been driven by a sense of vulnerability, revealing the delicate nature of their perspectives. the fear of relinquishing control over societal institutions and structures creates a palpable tension that spurs them to employ various mechanisms to safeguard their position. this apprehension stems from the realization that a shift towards a more equitable distribution of authority might lead to a loss of the privileges they have historically enjoyed.

the historical trajectory of men's actions underscores the lengths to which they have gone to preserve their perceived dominance. the mechanisms include the suppression of women's voices, relegating them to roles that reinforce traditional gender norms, and employing socio-cultural constructs that serve to legitimize their position of power. these actions, while aimed at asserting authority, reflect a deep-seated anxiety about the potential consequences of a more inclusive and egalitarian society.

according to jacquelyne campbell in 'misogyny and homicide of women', the fear of women emerged during the primitive times, when the mystery of conception and birth remained an unexplained part of human experience. throughout time, they found a way to cope and that is by trying to establish religious and societal efforts to make that facet of womanhood be a basis for the depreciation of female importance—leading to the subjugation of the female sex.

this then became the foundation of early greek that linked intellectualism, nature and power as inherently traditionally male; a concept which has been spoken in my earlier writings about patriarchal origins. it is because of this established ‘tradition’ that we now then see how this touched men’s imagination, they quickly accepted this concept to authority. 

we find this in the explicit nature of both karl marx and friedrich engel’s theories that encompass the thoughts, "first oppressor–oppressed relation, the foundation of all other class and property relations'', which fundamentally means that the idea of an oppressor and the oppressed creates the effect social dynamics of those who have power and those who are deprived of it. the powerful controls and dominates the communities they dwell in terms of social hierarchies, class divisions, wealth, property and ownership patterns.

within the context we have, jacquelyne campbell means to explain that women are essentially being forced into these dynamics because of men’s insecurities driving them into laying the groundwork that prevents women from getting out of these social dynamics that were now designed to be occupied by men for men. as such, men would not have to fear their security being challenged by any sort of self-actualization of women and their own ambition.

just as much, the growth of machismo as a main theme of how men should behave and be in a patriarchal society becomes heavily cemented throughout time. machismo being ingrained in the system cements a way of life that is according to the text, ‘exalts strength and power, demands competition with and superiority over other men, glorifies violence, emphasizes virility, despises gentleness and expressing any emotion except anger and rage, and rigidly defines women as property, sexual objects, and subjects of male domination.’

and because of this growth of machismo and patriarchy side by side, misogyny becomes extremely violent and uncontrollable. because as we mentioned, men hate feeling deprived of authority and agency, even the mere feeling of losing it drives them crazy. or as one of the sources within the text surmises, ‘violence may be the most appropriate way to protect one’s honor, to show courage or conceal fear, especially fear of revealing weakness.’

female activists later coined the term ‘gynocide’ as part of the umbrella of systematic gender specific slaughter directed towards women. gyno is referring to women or females and cide to kill or cut. gynocide as defined by andrea dworkin is ‘the systematic crippling and/or killing of women by men.’ – meaning, that men have for generations created a system by which punishes or even slaughters women if they do not adhere to the status quo that is set by a patriarchal society that does not make room for women to have any sense of equity in the community or agency as a member of community.

this is exactly what happened to rhaenyra, to many other women in the narrative of power. they became victims of men’s uncontrollable fear of not having agency, because women were being given and taking their agency. women taking up space in a male dominated society and making something of their own felt like a threat to the order of things. hence, that anger and that fear that a woman deposes of that system as a whole in one full sweep. we have various women we can lay their own lives and tragedy akin to rhaenyra and her experience of such violence in the system. 

one example of gynocide during this era was witch-burning, echoing rhaenyra's fiery demise. this tragedy befell countless women across ancient and medieval societies. the european witch hunts, spanning the late middle ages to the early modern era (15th to 18th centuries), stand as stark evidence. myriad individuals, predominantly women, faced accusations of witchcraft, culminating in trials, incarceration, and execution.

though not all accused witches suffered immolation, burning became a prevailing method of administering punishment to those found guilty of practicing witchcraft. these accusations and trials often derived from superstitions, fear, religious dogma, and societal tensions, rather than tangible evidence of sorcery. much of this bias, which unjustly targeted women, aligns with the gender-based paradigms discussed earlier.

the victims of these trials were usually marginalized figures—widows, elderly women, the impoverished, and those straying from societal norms. pinpointing an exact count of women immolated as witches varies by locale and era. nonetheless, estimates indicate that tens of thousands, including a considerable number of women, lost their lives as a consequence of these witchcraft accusations.

consider margaret aitken, emblematic of the injustices faced. amid the great scottish witch hunt of 1597 during james vi's reign, a period notorious for his treatise against witches linking them with 'ungodliness and the devil,' margaret faced judgment as a witch. coerced by torture and fear, she implicated other women as witches. driven by the dread of retribution from men, margaret unwittingly endangered fellow innocent women, leading to their agonizing execution by immolation. subsequently, margaret herself met the same fate, her coerced words turned against her despite their origin in fear and violence at the hands of men.

a parallel to rhaenyra's mutilation and demise emerges in the suffering of olympias, mother of alexander the great. olympias wielded agency not only as a woman but also in safeguarding her son's rule. mirroring male tactics, she employed violence to secure her interests. as she comprehended her grandson's impending loss of crown and life, olympias took action. thwarted by cassander, once an ally of alexander, who wrested power and orchestrated her defeat.

the steadfast loyalty of alexander's soldiers spared her mutilation, prompting cassander to manipulate those with resentment towards olympias. this culminated in her brutal stoning to death, along with the denial of burial rights. cassander's power consolidation entailed not just olympias' demise, but also the deaths of alexander the great's wife and child—individuals olympias sought to protect.

similarly, hypatia of alexandria, a revered philosopher renowned for her intellect, encountered a parallel fate to rhaenyra. her demise bore shocking brutality. entrapped and stripped, hypatia endured a savage mutilation orchestrated by men threatened by her influence. her eyes gouged, her body dismembered, and her remains desecrated through public display and burning. this atrocity emerged from fears that hypatia's reasoning and wisdom posed a challenge to power structures. her ability to engage with influential figures frustrated those seeking to maintain control, construing her intellect as an obstruction.

such stories, both historical and fictional, resonate with rhaenyra's tragic narrative, illustrating the pervasive patterns of violence and suppression that women have endured throughout history. much like rhaenyra's plight, these stories emerged from the grip of patriarchy that tightly held societies, coercing them to conform or face dire consequences. women often bore the brunt of this challenge, defying norms and striving for a chance at a life beyond being a mere historical footnote. their struggles were driven by the desire to seize agency, to transcend the constraints of their time.

these brave women dared to challenge a system that sought to confine them. they yearned for lives that extended beyond the shadows, desiring recognition and power that was so often denied to them. tragically, their aspirations were often met with brutal resistance, as men, threatened by the perceived erosion of their authority, resorted to oppressive tactics to maintain their control. this underpins the somber essence of women's enduring struggles – a tale that finds its origins in the disheartening attempts to curtail their rights.

these narratives, spanning diverse eras and cultures, intertwine with rhaenyra's story, reinforcing the unfortunate reality that the echoes of history often reverberate in similar patterns. while rhaenyra's narrative is a work of fiction, it continues to encapsulates the essence of the broader theme that resonates through the ages: the fight for agency, equality, and freedom, against the backdrop of entrenched gender biases. the memory lingers of the patriarchal butchery against women and we are still as many before us have, remember the harmony and the tune and proceed to remember and to fight against it.

In GRRM's world, its pretty fucking clear that usurpers never win. Maegor died without kids, Aegon, son of Alicent, and his children died (I do feel bad that his kids died, they were innocent), even Aemond died without issue [he was regent for a while], and Robert Baratheon died without legitimate issue and he usurped the Targaryens. You know which bloodline did survive? The Targaryens through Daenerys, so, you know, the author has put it right in our faces that these three men weren't supposed to have the throne in the first place, for all they sat on it.

Even the damn Blackfyre's died out in the male line, which is another glaring indicator that usurpers and would-be usurpers, don't live long even if they do "win" for a brief amount of time.

The rightful Kings and queen's bloodlines survived despite the usurpers best attempts to end them. Aegon the Uncrowned and Aenys' line survived through Jaehaerys, Rhaenyra's line survived through her sons and their descendants, and Aerys and Rhaegar's through Daenerys and Jon Snow.

In GRRM's world, usurpers don't get a happy ending and he's made that pretty clear so people who support Aegon the usurper and Robert Baratheon can cry that they were rightful Kings all they want when their direct bloodlines literally no longer exist save for bastards on Roberts side lmao

EDIT: the Baratheon male line, if Stannis doesn't have a son, is also pretty well done and finished. Stannis is the last legitimate male Baratheon left. His daughter Shireen is the last legitimate female Baratheon left. Even more proof for ya.