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protectorsoftheearth · 11 months

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I think the thing that I wish the most was spoken about with Orym, and that everyone having discourse about the gods of Exandria needs to remember, is that questioning the gods and their place in this world does not make you Ludinis Daleth.

If you don't live in a world where you can question what functions the gods are serving, why they're here, then that's a problem.

I also think that a lot of what is missed, and a lot of what I am particularly curious about is how the people of Exandria are taught about the gods.

It seems from a viewers point of view that they function much like a Greek pantheon, in that they are all a little more human than any god from a monotheistic religion. The Wild mother is kind and caring and gentle, the raven queen is aloof and shoulders grief like she carries the world with a heavy sense of responsibility and that creates distance but not uncaringness, the Dawnfather is kind of a dick in his rigidity and his forcefulness and righteousness. They all feel a little human in this way and more godly in how big all those emotions feel, how instrinsic they are. Not once have I seen these gods and though they are ominscient and omnipresent and omnibenevolent. They have complexity to them but are beholden to who they are a little by their domains, their personalities are the force of their domains. They put themselves behind a wall and can only give assistance to those few who have chosen to give back to them as the divine gate not only restrains them but the powers they have in the world. They must have a way to channel their powers, through something.

However, if you are on Exandria, if you are an average citizen, are you taught that the gods are all powerful? That they control your world? Are you taught that the prime deities are Omnibenevolent, and therefore no bad should occur? Are you fully taught that in order for them to have power in this world we must give it to them? Or are you taught perhaps, that the gods exist as an extent form of life, that they choose their champions by just granting them powers?

From what they are taught how easy is it for them to believe that they have been abandoned? That the gods have the power to help them and refuse? That whatever the champions do is with the gods endorsement? If the gods can exercise their power on this world through their champions then surely everything done under their name is emblematic of the gods themselves?

Because then you can start to accept how many people distrust and dislike the gods if they are not taught about them in a way that makes sense in the world.

Then we as the viewers also have to give the same grace we would give to an NPC when they question the gods and their place in the world because they also don't have the same information and perspective we do. The players might and the way they think about the gods is for them to know but they are actors. So they will play the knowledge of the characters, and the characters self admittedly know shit about the gods and their place and what they do and have learnt bits and pieces about the calamity and the divine gate but on a fundamental functional level, the level at which they are questioning the gods place and the way they work, is an answer they do not have. It's why it keeps being brought up.

#critical role #critical role spoilers #campaign 3 #cr3 #gods discourse #exandrian pantheon #someone please talk to ne about this #because there is this assumption that keeps happening about any questioning of the gods meaning youre aligning with ludinis #or that the people of this world know how their gods function #we have seen time and time again that everyone from the scholars in the cerberus assembly #to all the player characters #to the npc farmer #that none of them have a goddamn clue #and then we get upset when they ask how it works #and if it should work that way

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rainythoughtsforme · 4 months

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With Predathos being trapped in Ruidus as a prison, and Tharizdun having been banished to the Far Realm after the Calamity and wants to annihilate everything that's ever been created, I'm morbidly fascinated with the idea of these beings facing one another

#critical role #campaign 3 #predathos #tharizdun #exandrian pantheon #god eater vs a deity of destruction #bells hells #granted this could end up with everything imploding but fuck that would be fascinating #betrayer gods #cr

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wizard-hubris · 10 months

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#also the whole the gods never did anything for me thing that keeps happening#not to be rude but did you ever try to contact them or did you just think they would randomly intercede#if you avoid their spheres of influence don’t be shocked if they also avoid you

these tags by @wackachewbacca on this post reminded me of a German saying/joke I’ve heard in Cologne once. I didn’t want to derail the original post too much, so here’s my own. Anyway, the joke goes: “A man prays to God everyday, ‘please, God, let me win the lottery.’ Every day: ‘please, God, let me win the lottery.’ Every week, every day: ‘I didn’t win the lottery again. Oh why, God? Please, please let me win the lottery!’ One day, finally, he hears a voice answer his prayer. It sounds very tired as it says ‘Come on, pal, give me a chance. Buy a ticket.’ ”

And this feels very much exactly like what is described in the tags and I agree completely. Pointedly not talking about Deanna and her understandably complex relationship with the Dawnfather (which is very very delicious and I love every second it’s onscreen) here, because that’s not what I mean. Complicated relationships between Gods and their followers are interesting and a great exploration (also see pretty much everything re: FCG since they started following the Changebringer), but those are decidedly not the people ever going “What have the gods ever done for me?” It’s so far mostly been people that say themselves “Oh no, I don’t really have anything to do with the gods”. If they indicated that they worshipped one or some of the Exandrian gods for a significant time and then felt snubbed when they asked for help and didn’t receive any, I might understand their point a bit more (even if the matter would probably be more complicated). But as it is, it’s like if the guy in the joke wouldn’t even pray to his god to get a lottery ticket, it’s just a person randomly going “Well, the gods certainly never helped ME win the lottery” after hearing that someone wants to dispose of the gods.

And yes, they’re engaging the whole thing in the show with a bit more nuance than I probably give them credit for here, but combined with the number of times the same arguments get brought up without anything new (or even old valid) points to back it up, it gets a bit much for me. Especially with how exhausting the fandom can be about this topic.

#critical role #critical role spoilers #cr spoilers #cr meta #cr discourse #(just to be safe)#exandrian pantheon #but also deanna's commune was SO interesting and her whole relationship with the dawnfather is so juicy it's really such a great piece of #storytelling that's fitting this campaign so so well #also i hope it's okay to tag you your tags violently reminded me of that joke and i had to share my thoughts on it #wackachewbacca #because...yes. so much that

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thatoneacecryptid · 1 year

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Just thought of another sticking point about the Exandrian gods, Aasimar

Aasimar usually have human parents but are born aasimar thanks to being touched or blessed by an angel of the gods or the gods themselves

Eradicating the gods kinda sounds like it would lead to no continuation or at least a decline in the already rare aasimars. And who’s to say that once Predathos is done eating the gods and their celestial agents that it won’t turn around and start eating the much smaller pieces of divinity?

Who’s to say Da’leth - who we know doesn’t really have a “That’s too far” cap - won’t hunt aasimar down either. He has no qualms about killing holy/faithful people

Just some thoughts…

#not to add to the discourse or anything #i just had some thoughts #wanted to share #aasimar #critical role #cr spoilers #critical role spoilers #fuck ludinus #ludinus da'leth #ruby vanguard #exandrian lore #Exandrian gods #exandrian pantheon #dnd gods #predathos

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alikandhoney · 9 months

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Things get funky when you start to think of Exandria through the eyes of the elementals. If you really sit and think about it the prime deities are like colonizers except instead of stealing the land for themselves they stole it to raise their favorite pets.

#critical role #dnd #exandrian pantheon #Exandria lore #critrole #critical role meta #Exandria elementals #the prime deities critical role #is this crazy? does this sound crazy.#I’m just saying #this calamity rewatch is going so well lmao

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balleater · 1 year

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honestly, i love that the gods are being super intense about everything going on. the idea that they would just go down without a fight is Wild so yeah, they're gonna be pushy about this shit.

#critical role #cr spoilers #this remains a exandrian pantheon stan blog #pelor is my Boy #now what i'd Really enjoy seeing is how followers of the betrayer gods are being approached about this #bc like. yeah they're evil but also i can't imagine they're down for being eaten so

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pinkieroy · 10 days

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Some fans just have a hard time seeing that the gods are fundamentally overpowered authority figures

#yes destroying the whole exandrian pantheon would be bad questioning and more importantly challenging the power they hold over mortals #while favoring some and turning their back on others isn't #it is a fundamentally unfair system and omg ludinus would never have been able to convince so many people if none felt mistreated by them #bor'dor came from a religious family after all #text #critical role

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literole · 2 years

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an avandra worshipper in a main campaign?!?! matt mercer u have answered my prayers

#cr spoilers #the changebringer is one of the Best in the exandrian pantheon and i will die on this hill #she is the loml #critical role #critrole

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haorev · 11 months

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Huh yknow I guess the Founding really is the Exandrian version of the Dawn War from 4e

Hadn’t thought about it like that before

#critical role #cr3 #critical role spoilers #I like 4e ok #it’s kind of charming #this also really makes it apt that the Exandrian pantheon is the Dawn War pantheon

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californiannostalgia · 1 year

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oh fuck the pantheon is going into Calamity Mode (or is it the Predathos Mode?)

(this is really reminding me, as a Percy Jackson obsessor, of the six eldest Olympian gods who had torn their father to pieces in the First War reacting very strongly to the possibility of the Second War)

#critical role #cr spoilers #exandrian pantheon #elder olympians #c3e58 #I'm sensing immortal backstory!!! I'm sensing gods shit!!! godly angst!!! my radar is going CRAZY

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intobarbarians · 1 year

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marisha’s first two campaign characters are very transparently based on aang and korra lmao

#i’m not denying their creativity but they have literally said they based their characters on *xyz media*#the exandrian pantheon is largely from the official handbook…examples abound

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quipxotic · 11 days

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See I watch Critical Role because I like a good story. Sure there are things I’d like to see, lore I’d like to learn, theories I’d like proven right or wrong, characters I’d like focused on, but all of that is secondary to getting to enjoy a good story. And while I know very little about the Crown Keepers, I am familiar with most of the actors involved and know them to be great storytellers. That earns them a bit of trust and patience from me. So while the second half of c3e92 wasn’t what I came into the episode hoping to see, I am more than willing to wait to see how the story plays out before I decide how good/bad the timing was or whether it improves/detracts from the greater narrative of C3.

That said, I don’t mind people saying that they were disappointed. You come to a C3 episode and you expect to see a whole episode of Bell’s Hells. That’s completely understandable. What I don’t get is people saying the Crown Keepers aren’t a part of this story.

They’re a part of it because Orym and Fearne were members. They’re a part of it because Dorian was and still is a member of Bell’s Hells. Deni$e, Dariax’s (maybe) ex, was a member of Team Issylra and is a friend of Laudna, Ashton, and Orym. They’ve got several members with close connections to the gods, so they’ve got skin in the game of what happens to the pantheon. They’re as much a part of this story as Vox Machina and the Mighty Nein, and that’s on purpose. This is a pan-Exandrian event. Everyone is involved.

#critical role #bells hells #critical role spoilers #c3e92 #crown keepers

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utilitycaster · 1 year

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Exandrian wizards will see a celestial solstice and will be like "is anyone going to leverage that in order to fundamentally change the structure of the cosmos and pantheon" and not even wait for an answer

#critical role #critical role spoilers

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dailyadventureprompts · 4 months

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Hey Dapper! As an avid follower of- and equally avid inspiration-taker from your work, first of all, thank you for the work you've put into all this. It is a treasure-trove of knowledge and inspiration that has certainly made me very happy. Can I ask for your thoughts on Tharizdun? I've been trying to form a concept of it for in my own world, but I've had little success.

Monsters Reimagined: Tharizdun, the Whisperer in Darkness

Being the default "god of madness" Tharizdun brings together two of my enduring gripes with d&d: gods that no one would actually worship and the enduring legacy of depicting people with mental illness as dangerous lunatics devoid of empathy and reason.

As he currently exists in the DM's toolbox, the whole point of including Tharizdun in your campaign is to act as the powersource behind whichever final fantasy style endboss wants to start the apocalypse before unleashing a mass of offband lovecraftian tentacles. Derivative, trite, his singular desire to inspire others to end the world is MCU levels of failing to give villains proper motivations.

We can do better

TLDR: Far In the wildest depths of the astral sea the ur-god Tharizdun is formless and thoughtless, yet dreaming. Resembling nothing so much as a cosmic nebula of oily clouds, a vast and shapeless expanse of churning primordial chaos that pulses with synapses of psychic lighting containing a consciousness older than time itself. Like a sleeper beset with sleep paralysis the chained oblivion thrashes against a reality it can only barely perceive, sending shockwaves of destruction across the cosmos.

While scholars of all worlds debate the true origins and nature of Tharizdun they can agree on two things:

It is more powerful than all the pantheons of creation, and it is terrified.

Inspiration: I wasn't originally going to do a whole monsters reimagined on Tharizdun, instead simply gesturing on what Matt Mercer has done with the deity (using the roiling chaos as a throughline for much of his Exandrian worldbuilding) and leaving it at that.

Around the same time I got this ask though I was considering doing my own take on Azathoth, the so called "blind idiot god" of the lovecraft mythos, inspiration struck and I decided to alloy the two concepts into what I think is a stronger whole. There's a lot of overlap in the two formless horrors, partly due to Tharizdun being a d&d's attempt to dip its toe into eldritch horror, without quite understanding the thematic framework involved.

Like many other things ( Minorities, the sea, decay, air conditioning) Lovecraft was terrified of objective reality. This might sound like a joke, but fundamental to his mythos is the fear that earth and the white men that lived upon it were not the centre of the universe created by a loving god. Lovecraft lived in increasingly scientific times and the science supported the idea of a universe in which humanity's existence was the meaningless product of random chance. Azathoth was this anxiety embodied in its most extreme scale: the capital G god of the universe which sat in the middle of all creation that was not only uncaring towards humanity (as many of Lovecraft's creations were) but the embodiment of ultimate unthinking chaos.

Trying to port Azathoth (and most of the other lovecrafitan pantheon) doesn't work because the conceits of the genre fundamentally clash. D&D DOES propose a moral universe, and goes out of its way to simplify morality down to such a cartoonish level that it has objective answers. In Lovecraft the horror comes from the fact that the cultists and their fucked up alien gods exist, where as the moral christian god doesn't... in d&d there's no reason for the cultists to worship the fucked up alien gods because the regular gods are both existent and quite nice.

The default d&d cosmology has multiple infinite voids of chaos including limbo, the abyss, and the far realm. I've already given my take on one of these, but I wanted an alternative for the origins of the weird that wasn't specifically focused on entropic decay.

There's a fascinating (and very depressing) history over the term hysteria and the connotations of mental crisis with feminine fragility. The word itself comes from the greek word for womb and there's something about the idea of "primal birthing chaos" that's worth playing with insofar as it makes weird rightoids Jordan Peterson deeply afraid.

Taking these thoughts as well as my earlier gripes in mind, its going to take a bit of an overhaul to make Tharizdun/Azathoth as a credible antagonistic force for a campaign. Also, this might be my own bias as an author showing through here but I don't go in for the lovecrafitan "truths too terrible to be understood". I think the universe is a fundamentally knowable place and if things exist outside our means of perceiving them then we'll just bullrush through and work out a temporary explanation on our way.

Here's my Fix/Pitch: Both Tharizdun and Azathoth are supposed to represent primordial chaos and formless madness. D&D's less than stellar history with mental health issues aside, we know that "madness" isn't evil and it isn't the antithetical opposite of order: It's flawed reason, it's an inability to comprehend, and it's deeply scary for those going through it.

THAT ended up reminding me of a famous quote from lovecraft himself; "The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown".

What if we make THAT FEAR into the god? Imagine the panicked sensation of being woken from the deepest slumber by a sudden noise, the door opening or a loud bang going off somewhere on your street..... the phantom horror of something touching you, crawling over you in the middle of the night before you have any of your senses or reason or memory to tell you that it's just your partner or your pet or your own bed sheets. That's the stuff sleep paralysis is made of and it's been haunting us humans since the dawn of time. It's also the same horror of being born, of being a non-thing and then coming into existence in fits and starts without any understanding of the world that you're now

Now imagine there's something out there in the astral sea, the plane of dreams and thoughts... powerful beyond all imagining but created without the ability to ever fully wake up. It is stuck in that first moment of existence because it may well have been the first thing to ever exist and it's been trapped in the shapeless nightmare of an infant since the dawn of time

THAT is how you make a god about the horror of the unknown. A god that is antagonistic to us because it is sacred of us, and it is scared because it has no way of knowing us, knowing the reality it inhabits beyond its own fear.

Adventure Hooks:

The greatest threat Tharizdun presents to most beings in the universe is having a nightmare about them. Through the inexplicable paths of sleep an individual's mind may find themselves connected to the entity's own... receiving terrible visions as the thinking clouds of Tharizdun's body churn in a variable brainstorm. Some aspect of this communion will be twisted into something terrible, birthed into the cosmos with the same shrieking fear and confusion that inspired its creation. Some desperate few seek out this communion, thinking in their hubris that they can give shape to Tharizdun's creation, that the terror beyond time suffers collaborators or requests. (Yes, I'm yoinking the dream-spawning ability of beholders. They were already weird enough before they started getting involved with dream stuff)

Despite being a living entity, Tharizdun is also a place, a plane unto itself streaking through the multiverse like a collossal ameoba through the primordial soup. There are landscapes within the god, whole continents that form and erode through seasons of surreality as the paroxyc titan dreams them into being. One can create portals into these landscapes, even fly a jammership across them, but the act of doing so invites an even more chaotic backlash than visiting the chained oblivion in dreams, letting its terror leak out into the waking worlds.

The name "chained oblivion" dates back to an eon when forces of celestial order attempted to keep Tharizdun contained in the hopes of preventing the escape of its creations or its contact with other minds. This period of the multiverse oft refereed to as the "Time of Quiet" sadly came to an end when the entity's bindings were shattered by a collective of villains and horrors today refereed to as the "Court of Fools" or "Troupe of the Final Void". The Troupe are a motley bunch, unable to agree on a theology but all wanting to pick at the slumbering titan like it was a scab on the skin of heaven. Some serenade Tharzidun with cacophonous music, others hurl saints and sacrifices into its body, some worship or hunt the god's offspring while others stab it with cosmic pokers, just to get a reaction. They want to wake the chained oblivion and don't care how much of the multiverse they have to burn to do it.

Like a mollusc producing pearls as a means of containing an irritating bit of grit, Tharizdun's roiling cosmic body will occasionally spit out an entire world or strange demiplanes as a means of dislodging something it could not pallet. While this has been the genesis of many realms both beautiful and terrible throughout the astral timeline, of late all these worlds worth taking have been colonized by the Troupe. Woe and pity to any mortal who calls such a world home, ruled over by tyrants who care only for destruction, unaware of a cosmos not coloured by Tharizdun's wake.

Titles: The chained oblivion, the spiraling titan, sire of stars, the Paroxsmal god, Lord of all Hysterics.

Signs: Stormclouds that look oily and churn with otherworldly light, formless nightmares and pervasive sleep paralysis, mass delusion, darkness that echoes with the god's muttering and the sound of distant flutes.

Worshippers: Ad hoc worship of Tharizdun tends to congregate around those who have received unwanted visions of the chained oblivion, as the harrowing experiance often bestows those that suffer it with an otherworldy weight to their words, to say nothing of occasional psychic powers. Many abberations likewise pay heed to the chained oblivion, either for directly giving them life or for its great and insuppressable power. Among these include Grell who refer to Tharizdun as "storm mother", The nightmarish Quori follow in the wake of the god's psychic emanations and make up a large faction of the court of fools, and the Kaorti, terrifying mage-things remade by exposure to the spiralling titan's heart who claim to be heralds for the entity.

Art

#monsters reimagined #outergod #tharizdun #lovecraftian #outer spheres #astral #kaorti #quori #far realm #planescape #spelljammer

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