#are you a true wincest shipper if no one have said that to you?
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even as someone who does not ship the brothers (or deancas), i feel that there is no denying the heavy handed undertones of romance between them, and the writers' very intentional and frequent exploration into incestual themes, if one is truly understanding the show. however, it's also my understanding that a lot of hellers/deancas people/whomever use a frustrating argument that "sam doesn't really know dean" when in reality, he will always know dean better than cas. thats the whole point of the show. when dean and sam 'betray' each other from the other's persepctive, the person doing the betraying genuinely believes they are acting in the other's best interest, whereas with dean and cas it's always for personal benefit.
to stop the rambling, i wanted to ask, purely in interest of seeing multiple sides: if so many hellers were not so anti-sam and did not project so much onto castiel, do you think the fandom at large (outside of that group) would have less of an issue with the ship? again, i am genuinely curious and you seem both well established in the fandom and well versed in the show itself. i feel as though where other shows do have beef between shippers and such, the supernatural fandom is watching two completely different shows and so many of them are bypassing crucial parts.
Hey Anon!
I don’t ship Wincest either (though most Wincesties I know are cool), and I REALLY don’t ship Destiel. But, I do joke about brother husbands a lot and love the brothers’ codependency. Still, I don’t think the writers are actually ever suggesting there are true romantic feelings to Sam and Dean’s relationship. Or maybe I should say, I don’t think canon (or subtext) Sam and Dean are actually (even secretly) hot for their brother. However, I think the romantic parallels and even outright nods to incest are very deliberate (and obvious). Partly, it’s on brand for the horror/gothic genre of the early seasons, but it also serves the purpose of highlighting how important Sam and Dean are to each other. They are each other’s soulmate, life-partner, and number one, which are usually roles reserved for couples. Also, I think the show just likes to make jokes as well. It’s clearly deliberate when the show goes from having characters assume they are couples, to villains making incesty remarks about them, to Dean asking if Sam wants a divorce.
I agree that Sam knows Dean better than Castiel, or anyone else. And Dean knows Sam best. That being said, they don’t understand each other perfectly, and they speak “different languages” in terms of showing care a lot of the time. Sometimes this is works in a complimentary way that has them in sync (Dean loves his family, especially Sam most, and Sam needs to be Dean’s number one), and sometimes it causes friction between the brothers (Dean letting Gadreel inside Sam or Sam trying to cure MOC). But, I agree that MOST of the time when they “betray” each other it’s when they are trying to help each other, or at least it’s a byproduct of something they feel they need to do. They never treat each other as expendable. And I also agree that betrayals between Dean and Castiel just hit different. I think this is because 1) they don’t have the same obsessive love underlying everything they do to/for each other (despite what hellers think), 2) they are more brothers-in-arms than true adopted famoly until later seasons 3) Castiel is not human, and I believe that Dean (however subconsciously) treats him differently because of that, and Cass not being human also changes his view of the fallout his actions will have with the people he cares about, and 4) I agree that they both betray each other out of personal interest in thst they value other things/people more highly than each other quite often (Dean will always value Sam above all, and Castiel often values whatever mission he is on above the brothers or is at least willing to risk them for it to an extent).
Feel free to ramble in my asks whenever you like. Clearly, I do it too, so no judgement here.
My short answer to your question is … yes. If hellers didn’t hate on Sam in a transparent attempt to make him seem less important both to Dean and to the show in general, I doubt Sam girls would care that people shipped Castiel and Dean. It’s the attempt at twisting canon and down-playing Sam that is frustrating. And yes, the projecting added significance onto Castiel is massively annoying because it shows a lack of understanding of the show, whether purposeful or due to ignorance. And that annoys everyone who cares about the “fscts” of the show. It’s also their insistence that Dean is bi … because reasons (often offensive, stupid and/or steryotical) that annoys the people who actually enjoy Dean’s true chracter, not the fan-fic woobifued version of him that hellers (and some AAs) fawn over. But, I think what pisses the fandom at large off the most about hellers is their insistence that they get their way and the tantrums they throw about being “robbed” when a ship that was clearly never going to sail in the show continued not to happen. More specifically, their need to hate on actual actors, writers, producers, networks and other so called “homophobic” fans who don’t agree with them is abhorrent to many.
I agree with your final sentiment completely. It is like Supernatural is at least two totally different shows, depending on which type of fan you are talking to. I mean, there are arguably more than two versions of the show in collective fans’ minds, if we consider which of the brothers a group sympathizes with most and how they interpret the chracters’ actions (Sam is a whiny brat … Dean is an abusive monster 🙄). But, out of all the fan groups, there is only one who seems to be "watching" a piece of media that does not even resemble the actual show … and it’s hellers.
And to be clear, I’m not talking about Destiel shippers in general here, but hellers in particular. No one I know, including me, cares if people ship Dean and Castiel for their own enjoyment, but it’s the insistence they are right and attempted rewriting of canon (and threatening real people) that makes people ragey.
Anyway, thank you for your ask. I’m sorry my reply was so long. (This is likely one of the reasons I don’t get a ton of asks, lol).
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Ok, Hunter in the pool was supposed to get your attention X_D sorry!
The last few days may have been somehow tough for our wyler community. Shippers and their ships could be the core of fandoms, and I am really sorry that in 2023 someone still doesn't get the lesson…anyway…
I decided to make a post sharing some of the fan-fictions which made the last 2 days brighter after knowing that Jenna Ortega is killing the romance in Wednesday- which I repeat, is not bad for Wyler since we couldn't get any romance in s2 anyway as you can read in my previous post. I just hope this is not going to affect the unresolved sexual tension between Tyler and Wednesday. I am curious to see if views won't drop without that. Because audience is fickle and untamable: dear Jenna, today they are clapping when you say "no romance" then in 2 years (when we will be even farther from the effects of covid 19 on people's emotional life) will start complaining about the lack of intensity in the series. For me, this is a challenge and I am curious to see who's right here.
We are forced to accept the decision to castrate Wednesday Addams, dark and sarcastic woman, yes, but still daughter of one of the most passionate couples (Morticia and Gomez Addams). How is possible that to prove women's independence and strength in 2023 we still have to castrate them? Did men do anything like this since the beginning of civilization? Wouldn't be great to affirm our sexuality together with indipendence and strenght? Is it so dangerous for a woman to get an orgasm thanks to a man, really?
Anyway, now back to fanfic:
ALL IT TOOK WAS YOUR SPARK by @wincestation
For me this is royal blood among the fan-fictions I read, latest chapter was out just a few hours before or after (don't remember) the interview Jenna did at The Tonight Show.
It's impossible to describe how much I love this fanfic- and how much I laugh when I read it. Wincestation has established herself as one of the best wylers writers already. She is building an AU and her Tyler and Wednesday can actually challenge in terms of quality the original characters of the series.
Wincestation, I am one of your cheerleaders.
YOU ARE STILL A TRAITOR by @suchaladyy
Another gem I read immediately after Jenna's interview and I loved the warm feeling left in my heart -I really needed it.
Suchalady is producing fanfictions at an impressive speed and her +18 explicit collections is for true connoisseurs. And I won't even bother to hide that after Jenna's attempt to castrate Wednesday I feel even more sadistic pleasure to read explicit +18 fanfictions where she is completely unleashed by Tyler -sorry Hunter, you find yourself in the middle of a war.
I AM TYLER, BY THE WAY by Kiranightshade @therulerofallpotatos
Gosh how I loved this piece! And I am seconding all the comments asking for the sequel! But I know that Kira is working on another more complex fanfic, so I patiently wait here.
+18 EXPLICIT that as I already said I am enjoying even more after Jenna's interview, as useless absolutely pointless personal vendetta.
BUT IT'S NOT REAL (AND YOU DON'T EXIST) by @the-strangest-person
WOW. I am new to Stranger Person'fanfic but this one hit me really hard.
There's some drama but I am pretty sure that if those poor screenwriters (Wednesday's ones) were allowed to write their own thing we would have gotten something similar.
ROUGH DAY by @realmermaid333
Realmermaid333 won't disappoint you, ever. I loved this explicit fanfic! It was fresh air, really hot but somehow sweet (Tyler can't disappoint you either) as only realmermaid can be.
THE WOES OF SELF DISCOVERY by SwedishlittleOwl @fandom-geek17
So damn hot, I started to read it and then I was like "noooooo it's not completeeee" I need others chapters! I am so curious to know what's gonna happen!
#wyler#weyler#wyler fanfiction#wyler fanfic#weyler fanfiction#weyler fanfic#wednesday fanfic#tyler galpin#wednesday and tyler#wednesday tyler#wednesday x tyler#tyler x wednesday#tyler wednesday#tyler and wednesday#team tyler#wednesday addams x tyler galpin#tyler galpin fanfic#tyler galpin smut#wednesday smut
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(not posting the usernames on the off chance you two get harassed. tell me if you want me to delete)
i'm not gonna delve into the tendency of fandom to ignore platonic relationships and aspec headcanons - but that part is unequivocally true. nor am i gonna talk in depth about acephobia and arophobia because that's too giant a topic for a little spn blog like me - but that is also unequivocally a thing. i'm just gonna talk about wincest.
i have a weird relationship with wincest. i swing from liking it, to being ambivalent about it, to straight up despising it, and back again. overall, i’d say that it is a ship which exists. i lean more towards liking it, because i just love sam and dean together so much, but i’m afraid i simply find it inferior to platonic samdean - which should be a widely used term, btw. please start using samdean platonically, too; all samdean enjoyers should form a coalition! that said, the honest majority of fics i read these days to get my samdean fix are wincest, since there are far fewer genfics than slash fics, and not many of these genfics are unhinged to my liking. i either pretend it’s platonic or, if that’s not really possible, just enjoy it as it is. so, i’m supremely grateful to wincest content creators <3 you are the loves of my life i am giving you all a big warm hug right now
i can see why people would ship wincest, on multiple levels. sam and dean are just an amazing pairing, in whatever form that takes; j2 are very hot guys; the show really doesn’t hold back on the incest subtext, and i don’t blame people for wanting to explore it in fanon. again, it’s just a ship that exists to me, and whose content creators i appreciate. probably my biggest gripe with it is the way an unfortunate amount of ‘wincest moments’ and analysis hinge on amanonormativity. i can generally just ignore the copious amounts of romantic moments and banging when reading one of the aforementioned wincest fics, but when i read something like, “Obviously there’s something more going on; no one can love their brother that much without wanting to kiss and fuck him!” i just… have to take a breather. i hate it so much. please, please do some research into amanonormativity. i do not blame you at all for shipping wincest, but if your reasoning is “they’re closer than most siblings” then i do blame you, i’m afraid. yes, they are extremely, undeniably weird, and closer than most siblings. does this mean they are/want to be romantically or sexually involved? no. i’m going to quote @brotherwives in saying, “I’d say that it actually cheapens the intensity of their bond,” because they’re just so right. i’m sure people have their reasons for shipping it, though, and i respect that; please keep the unhinged content coming, i love you. and i get that a lot of wincest shippers appreciate gencest, as well...
i just. hearing that some ppl - including wincest shippers - are weird about gencest is mind-blowing to me. i invite more people to enjoy the insanity of gencest, bc in my opinion it's just so damn great. brothers being insane about each other not in a "normal" brotherly way but also not in an incestuous sense?? they straddle the line between two things by just being unapologetically insane about each other?? a serve. THE serve. not to mention weirdcest - platonic kink, whatever form it takes - is so much fun!! like they know they're not "normal" but they aren't into each other, either?? and there's no textbook guide on how the hell they're supposed to act under these circumstances?? like "incest is wrong" is pretty much universally accepted, but what about platonically biting your brother's neck to stake a claim on him bc you can't stand the thought of anyone else ever taking him away from you, whether that be a romantic partner or a friend or the devil himself. you can still have that incest guilt without it actually being incest, you can still delve into the horrific familial enmeshment. imho it's literally the best possible thing.
i'm not aspec, btw, and i'm not trying to hail myself as the ally of all time by mentioning that lmaoo. i'm just saying. it's completely possible to enjoy platonic relationships and enjoy aspec headcanons (*cough* aro dean!!! *cough*) whether you're aspec or not. platonic relationships aren't appreciated enough, when, in my opinion, they're actually more interesting... romance is generally clear-cut, but that area where the lines of "friends" blur?? trying to navigate the fact that you care more about your friend or sibling or whoever than your romantic partner, and it will probably always be that way?? venturing into queerplatonic relationship territory without knowing what the hell that is or how to explain it, just knowing that you will gladly throw every convention off a steep cliff to live with your platonic life partner(s)?? yes.
in case this wasn't clear: i do NOT hate wincesties in any way, you guys are like my siblings. yeah, maybe we squabble and disagree on stuff, but at the end of the day we are different iterations of the same genes and i love you all <3 (please no one make any dumb incest jokes about that analogy) like i said, we should form a coalition and take back the spn fandom
#sam and dean#gencest#weirdcest#fuck amatonormativity fr#BE INSANE ABOUT PLATONIC RELATIONSHIPS TODAY!!#fandom wank#spn fandom critical#supernatural#spn#mine#tw incest
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What/who is 2po and what is M&G? I see them in your posts a lot and I can't come up with the definition for the life of me 💜
2po: Fandom misinformation troll. Uses the name TeamFreeWill2pointO (tumblr)/TFW2pointo(twitter) to lure in unsuspecting fans while putting on an I Ship Destiel badge, but his wall is nothing but Jared praise, shitting down on Destiel, saying it has to stay in subtext, and blaming hellers for everything, but he feigns being In The Know (ITK) by trading fan whispers, and tries to joust his rumors against my production leaks.
his sources are antis that just got busted for screaming physical threats for hellers hellering in unapproved spaces at a con, eg, asking questions in the Cockles M&G. hence all the bird imagery. i have little birdies waiting for them to stunt like this, and it's expanding in scale monumentally now. 2po, gayle and suzanne's fuckup just birthed into a new movement that's going to make cons hell for all of them
M&G: Meet and Greet: High cost VIP events at conventions that are sealed behind NDAs (nondisclosure agreements, say shit, get sued). 2po peddled these as whispers and lied about the contents for years to charge up wincest shippers and antis while shitting down on heller hopes and spreading his nonsense in the Profound Bond server. It's all word manipulation and deletion.
My server identified his sources and put eyes on them waiting for them to mess up, because the NDA prevented anyone from actually correcting him, and they did. So while he tried his normal thing of lying through it online and deleting shit, I pulled the trigger on the actual contents, which he accidentally verified as real after denying it, by threatening to report it for an NDA infraction. Cuz you can't report it if it wasn't true. But he talked himself into the dirt.
Then realized it was his own sources that fucked up and said it on main, so he couldn't even retaliate, which is exactly the kind of fuckup we were waiting for.
He's a career liar and grifter that projects those accusations at everyone else, and exists wholly to dishearten hellers and give wincest shippers and antis an illusionary bubble of dialogue where they're still the ones being pandered to.
If you want an idea I leaked the pilot for Winchesters february and knew for more reasons than I can ever explain it was real while he squealed like a stuck pig it was fake. I told them all it was about Dean learning from his parents life to find his peace, including the complexities of their life, loss, love, machinations of chuck, issues he has to unpack, letting go and moving on, learning from them and ultimately collecting it into getting to say what he wasn't allowed in the OG property.
For obvious reasons they also wailed against this, refused, because their perfect finale was perfect, and they were convinced jensen loved it and would never do this, and this wasn't, according to 2po, about letting go, moving on, or learning from your parents. And I don't know how to explain how off course he is beyond just pointing at the first three episodes and saying listen to jensen's narration if the episode itself is too Big Brain for him to figure out the sUbTeXt.
Like I'm still where I was before the Deadline hit. This story is exactly what I said and deancas is down the road and they need to cope. But he's gonna keep wheezing out his fake bad sources like a bad prophet to the end, denying the obvious.
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“But they’re brothers”
This was a request for a patron
Redbubble | twitter | patreon
#wincest#wincest art#Sam/Dean#yaaaa know the phrase#are you a true wincest shipper if no one have said that to you?
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On being SO DONE with M*sha, a rant a decade in the making!
After giving this some thought I'm going to go ahead and give my opinion on Misha and yesterday’s situation in public for the first time ever. I was going to just post on Twitter but since this has been 12 years in the making I have exceeded the number of tweets I can put in one thread! There’s A LOT in here, so my summary is also long. I'm aware that I will lose followers over this, I'm not looking to offend anyone but it will inevitably happen. I wish anyone leaving all the best as fellow human beings.
TL;DR - having kept quiet for so long I’ve finally reached my limit and it’s all come bubbling out. I’ve never been a fan of Misha, I’ve been ambivalent for the most part, but have never criticised him in any hateful way, that's not who I am, but after all these years of putting up with his bullshit, attention seeking and troublemaking I am DONE. Deleting his tweet containing the word Wincest and replacing it with an APOLOGY just to pander to his Minions and save face is the straw that broke the camel's back. He has consistently pushed his ship on not only fans but on other actors (despite Jensen's discomfort, and him having repeatedly made his feelings known on it), he has stood by while his Minions/Hellers have harassed, victimised, doxxed and sent death threats to people based on their FICTIONAL ships. He has pandered to their gatekeeping, constantly demanded attention in obvious and not so obvious ways, and to the best of my knowledge never criticised their actions even though he's aware of it in a very real way. Some of his Minions have now taken their shit into The Boys fandom and created negativity for Jensen before the guy has even got a foot through the set door, and how is that supporting one half of your ship?
Misha has claimed to be a victim of targeted harassment from Wincest/brother fans (not only shippers) yet his fans have said and done the most despicable things on his watch, all in the name of what he must think is entertainment, or even his idea of a ‘joke’.
Any respect I had for the man based on his humanitarian work has gone because I can only take so much hypocrisy. He and his pandering because of a desperate attempt to be woke and wholly inclusive (which is actually impossible, no matter how good intentions are) are beyond pathetic. Whilst I have never seen why people think he’s so great I have friends IRL and online who genuinely adore the man, yet they have been shocked and upset by his contempt for half of the fandom that made him somewhat famous. It's disgusting and I'm not scrolling by any more. Misha, I hope to never see you on anything J2 related in future because none of us need that kind of negativity, *especially* not J2. Be gone, foul fiend!
OK, so to the too long part. Please be aware that these are my opinions as a fan of the show, of Sam and Dean, and J2, not only as a shipper. I can separate canon and fanon, and can view canon from a gen or shippy PoV. Whether you agree or disagree with my opinion let me be clear that I do not condone constant bashing and hate of a person or character so this isn’t the start of a regular thing for me. It's possible to have an opinion and not show the same vitriol that has been following this man around for years, and that’s what I’m doing. I've not posted this to prompt more negativity, it's simply to get it off my chest and make it clear how I feel. I stand by my philosophy of ship who you want to ship, enjoy it, but don't force it on other people and don't be a dick about it…hmm, that kinda sounds like familiar behaviour, though, does it not?!
I have ABSOLUTELY NO ISSUE with other people liking Misha, Cas or Destiel when it’s for the love of the characters and the ship. What I *do* have an issue with is people who are the true definition of a Heller. I don’t see that as a generic term, don't be ignorant and think I do because I know the difference between actual ship fans and the crazies, both ships have ‘em and I want no part of either of their venom. If you are reading this and class yourself as a Heller then you are part of the problem so run along and as you are all so fond of saying, 'get help' and take your bestie king with you.
I’m stating my opinion in what I feel is the most mature way I can, because unlike many people on SM, I am an adult and can act accordingly, with forethought and without resorting to temper tantrums and bullying of other people to get my point across. I am able to tell the difference between reality and fiction, I don't tar everyone with the same shipper brush and I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion, but as we know opinions are like arseholes, we all have them and sometimes they stink. Unlike some, for the most part in life (online and offline) I *do* stand by what I say and don’t backtrack or delete things to appease the masses. I have spent a lot of time writing this out to be as clear as possible without being intentionally hateful. Bear with me jumping between actor and character where relevant, at this point they're conjoined. I will say this before I go any further, it doesn’t end well for Misha, I don’t mince my words and if you don’t like seeing facts and opinions laid out, this isn't the post for you.
I’ll say right off the bat what most of you have surmised - I’ve never held Misha (or Cas) in high esteem but I have never *hated* on him. I have shared mild criticism of his actions and opinions on Cas over the years but never, I feel, in any way that has made me feel I have something to apologise for. I have said several times I've been unhappy about Misha crashing con panels, taking attention away from J2 when at those cons *most* people paid their hard earned money to see the STARS of the show they love, first and foremost, and anyone else is a very nice bonus. The odd appearance here and there crashing a panel is fine (and Misha isn’t the first or last person to do it), maybe take up a few minutes then leave, but when someone commandeers an entire panel, that's just not on. It's not only selfish, rude and attention seeking but also disrespectful to other actors, fans and to the organisers who work hard to make sure everything ties in to give us the best con experience we can have. Everyone gets their turn on stage, there's no need to try and hog any more of the limelight, Veruca Salt style. Oh, and if you’re reading this and not getting that reference, (a) you shouldn’t be on my blog because you’re far too young, (b) look it up, and if you still don’t get what I’m saying… well then please refer to point (a). Thank you, kindly!
There was a time in Kripke's era where Cas was - I feel - intentionally used as a pawn by the writers to divert *canon* from the ‘questionable’ relationship between Sam and Dean, i.e. Wincest focus. Prior to that people (other fans) lightened up and just accepted the fact that Wincest had been there since day one in terms of the writing of the show and the fandom. All the cast and crew knew - J2, Kripke and JDM in particular - and made light of it, never judging, never shaming and often encouraging it because they understand it’s a fun part of fandom. Wincest was present enough to be part of the not so subtle subtext, as I said people just accepted it. Kink tomato was alive and well, so was ‘don’t like, don’t read’ and we all just scrolled over things we didn’t like without turning everything into a personal vendetta and excuse for bullying others who didn’t share our views. When the angels came into the plot I think most of us Wincest fans gave the Dean/Cas innuendos the small laugh they deserved and then turned back to the focus of the show which was the brothers, as it had always been intended. Misha, however, milked those moments as much as possible which was amusing at the start but got old *very* quickly, not just for fans (shippers and non shippers alike), but for other actors, in particular Jensen who is on record MULTIPLE times showing his dislike for Destiel. He told people outright that's not how he was playing the relationship between the two characters and CATEGORICALLY said "Destiel doesn't exist" but did it end there? No, it did not because neither fans or Misha let it go, in fact Misha only pushed more, goaded fans into flogging the same dead horse as much as possible. He’s never stopped, not even when there was so much discord in the fandom, a huge wedge was driven into it because of ships, which IMO he heavily contributed to.
Fast forward to over a decade later (a decade, seriously man, let it fucking go!) he didn’t even stop when Destiel did partially go canon. I have never doubted that Cas loved Dean (Sam, too) because in SPN lore angels are made to love, even rebellious ones. I, along with many others, liked that about Cas because who doesn't love a rebel, especially one rebelling for very good reasons, and because of those two wonderful men? Sam and Dean allowed him to see beyond what he'd been brainwashed to believe his entire existence. The fact is that although the nature of that love changed for Cas, it never did for Dean and was CANONICALLY UNREQUITED because Dean was incapable of loving anyone else as much as he loved Sam. All that mattered to Dean, even when he saw other characters as "family" was still Sam…ALWAYS Sam, every step of the way. Again for those who have too much Misha shaped wax in their ears, that’s canon. Whether people choose to see that love platonically or romantically is up to them, soulmates don't always have to be romantic, either way, brotherly love won out above all else on the show. No amount of Misha screaming ‘hey look, Destiel!’ changed that, but it sure didn’t stop him trying, did it?
So now that the obvious has been stated, here's something else we all know - never once in all of the years on the show did Misha drop rallying of the troops to his precious, ego stroking ship. Never once (that I am aware of) has he called out his Minions and Hellers on their continued harassment of everyone involved in the show and other fans despite the fact that they have bullied, victimised and wished bodily harm, rape and death on people who don't see their ship and because didn't get the ending to the story that they wanted. Not once has Misha shown any remorse for the trauma his "fans" have caused, and I’m taking REAL trauma, here, not the kind Twitter stans see as ‘triggering’ - people have been driven to close SM accounts, attempted, and in some cases succeeded in taking their own lives. These Minions have openly mocked Jared’s struggles with depression and anxiety, and Misha - who claims to be friends with J2 and be supportive of them in every way - has stood by and let it all play out, knowing full well some of the goings on, if not the full extent of how toxic these people are. We know he sees things being said online, and I have absolutely no doubt he spends time online searching his name for things that are relevant in some way to him in an effort to insert himself into a current conversation, or even start one so that attention is on him. Gotta stay relevant, somehow, right, Mish?
He has actively encouraged bullying by his actions of enabling the behaviours above, both by the flogging of the aforementioned dead horse, AND by not objecting to unacceptable behaviours. Remember when Minions and Hellers were slating J2, particularly Jared, for not posting on SM about BLM and other topics? Yeah, he didn’t ask them to stop doing that, either, even when he was tagged in things along the lines of ‘If Misha can post why can’t J2?’ etc. There have been some token protests, con vids I've seen have show his 'objections' which IMO have been done in a very tongue in cheek way, meaning that those people who needed to be pulled aside and told to change their ways just carried on, because their evil overlord didn’t explicitly explain it in terms a three year old could understand that bullying and forcing your opinion on others is WRONG. Not all of his cult are young and impressionable, not by a long shot, but many of the more vocal and vitriolic ones are.
As a father himself I wonder what Misha would do if he found out that his kids were behaving in ways his Minions are? I’m aware they’re young, but kids are cruel and bullying doesn’t just happen online. Even at whatever age they are, would he laugh it off the way he appears to have done with all of this fandom toxicity? Not bloody likely! I wonder if he’s as desperate to gain the approval of his family, friends and colleagues as he appears to be for that of his Minions/Hellers? I would certainly hope so, but that question can only be answered by Misha, himself, and I can and will not presume to speak on someone else's behalf on things in their personal life. For the record I would never presume I know what J2's answers would be on anything, however I do feel that after 15 years I have an accurate gauge on what kind of people they are so would be confident that any opinion I had on a matter aligns with their morals and ethics. As much as J2 have shared of themselves with us - willingly and under no pressure to do so, I might add - we don't *know* them, but we know enough to have an informed opinion. I can’t say the same for Misha because based on the behaviour he’s repeatedly displayed, things I've heard about from other fans as well as people I know IRL who have had direct dealings with him through cons or GISH (including some very actively in the early days when it was GISHWHES) he just hasn’t seemed like a person I wanted to follow on SM. I’ve never watched any of his solo panels, though I have watched ones with both or one of the J's, mostly being left irritated because of his behaviour. Watching the J’s put up with that shit is painful, and it’s a testament to how good they are as actors that they managed to hide at least some of their disdain for as long as they did. Microexpressions give them away, particularly Jensen, and they certainly have faces I have spent many years watching closely. Beautiful faces to go with beautiful souls, both of them! <3
I have precisely ZERO interest in Destiel as a ship, very little interest in Cas as a character anymore (though I did like him in the early days,and his relationship with Jack in late seasons) so I have absolutely no reason or desire to follow anything Misha does. That said, I've obviously been peripherally aware of some things he's been involved in because of friends, from things I’ve seen on SM and general fandom stuff. Despite the things I've already mentioned about his behaviour, up until now I have been able to maintain a level of respect for him as a person because of the humanitarian and charity work he's done. He seems like someone who really does want to change the world for the better and I am in full support of that fact, so much so that I have supported TWO campaigns relating to him. I bought one of the Super Good t-shirts for the campaign he did with Michael Sheen (a true angel!), the SPN/Good Omens x-over to help homeless charities, and I chose the design with text only and not artwork of Michael and Misha on, basically because I didn’t want to be wearing something with Misha’s face on it and I make absolutely no apology for that, whatsoever. I also bought Alex's #TheEndHasNoEnd shirt, which some of the profits went to Random Acts who do great work, so again, despite not liking Misha I still willingly contributed for a cause bigger than me, and to support Alex, who I absolutely ADORE. I'm aware that Stands aren't popular with some of the fandom, however since most of the cast of SPN are happily affiliated with them then I don't feel it's my place to either judge, or to discuss topics I know next to nothing about. But I digress, as a decent human being I have shown support tangentially to a man who I don't care for out of respect for the work he does outside the fandom. Telling you this isn’t to paint myself in a good light - I don’t need your approval, I’m a big girl, unlike some I don’t need constant validation! - only to provide background on how I’ve actively *not* hated on Misha.
Now though, any respect I had for him has come to an abrupt end, the events of the past 24 hours has seen to that. Whilst I have been annoyed at his behaviour in regards to shipping, I don't feel it's ever gone this far, or at least not that I've seen first hand. This man has, IMO, contributed to so much toxicity in the fandom by way of things I've mentioned before, he's claimed - without actually saying the words - that Wincest fans weren't interested in him as a character when he came onto the show, and hasn’t felt included because of the fans’ love of the brothers. Um, hate to break it to you, love, but when you come onto an established show that is about two people, and you’re a *guest star* you can’t expect everyone to love you. Some characters we as individuals do fall in love with straight away (Bobby, Charlie, Crowley and Rowena are good examples for me), it takes time to establish a dynamic, so if that’s how he felt then it was incredibly naive of him as an actor to expect instant acceptance from anyone. Also, why wait until after the show finished to bring it up AGAIN … oh wait, yeah, that would be to step back into the limelight in a way intended to garner sympathy from Minions and INTENTIONALLY piss off bro fans and Wincest shippers alike? How fucking self centred, desperate and disrespectful do you have to be to shit all over the finale of a show that for the most part accepted you and kept you in paid work for 12 years? Well, Misha Collins levels of all of those things, obviously.
So, on the topics of self centred, desperate to stay relevant, attention seeking and being oh so needy, the tweet yesterday from Amazon mentioned Castiel. He wasn’t tagged in it, so I refer to my earlier comment about searching online, because how else would he have possibly seen that? It’s possible someone sent it to him, I appreciate that, but if we go off past behaviour it’s not any stretch at all to believe that didn’t happen. So, once again, having seen the tweet he took it upon himself to - oh so predictably - turn it into something relating to Destiel. When I saw it I immediately rolled my eyes and thought ‘here we go again’, but then also had a little smile because I really liked the fact that he explicitly mentioned Wincest, therefore seeming to accept that his poor old dead horse wasn’t the only one in the race. I actually mentally tipped my hat to him then because it appeared that he’s matured enough to acknowledge by name the ship that predates his inclusion on the show. Great, I thought, this is a positive thing in a sea of negativity surrounding the man and his sunken ship, because what followed was Wincest trending in the US (it may also have been other countries as well but I had to sleep!) … largely due to the fact that Hellers were responding to it, calling him out on mentioning the dreaded ‘W’ word. I’ll repeat that because it’s been a rare occurrence up to that point… the Minions were actually disappointed with their overlord for mentioning another ship. We all know what they think of it and I for one, don’t give a flying fuck about their opionion. Ship and let ship, it’s all fun (or meant to be) so we have different tastes, that’s life kiddiwinks, deal with it. I mean, you really don’t have much of an example set for you when your king has proven several times over to be one of the biggest obnoxious brats out there, but just give it a try for your own sakes, yeah? Awesome, good on you, besties!
An unexpected development - to my joy and that of other Wincest shippers - them doing that got the topic trending, only *kept* trending by the fact that were all coming online asking why it was trending. Wincest shippers barely lifted a finger, we just flooded each other’s timelines with lovely content and basked in the Hellers - and Misha - shooting themselves in the foot, which was awesome. But did the vitriol stop? No. Did he get the attention he so clearly craves? Yes. Was it in the way he wanted? Fuck no, so poor, emotionally wounded baby backtracked after seeing that his name was trending alongside Wincest because that’s *so* not what someone narcissistic to do it in the first place, wanted.
Now here’s where I could easily have just moved on with an unusually fond chuckle, giving him an ironic pat on the back and a ‘thanks, Misha’ for being the one to instigate hours of fun, but once again his despicable behaviour made that impossible. It’s been more than obvious for many years that he cares more about what his fans think than anything else to do with the show and the fandom in a larger sense, but to delete the tweet and APOLOGISE for daring to be so insensitive to the snowflakes’ delicate sensibilities for mentioning Wincest in the first place was absolutely disgusting. Stating , “I used a term that I had never really given any thought to other than, "that's a thing?! Yuck." is not only complete and utter bullshit, it’s pandering of the highest order.
We all know he has referred to Wincest on multiple occasions, so to say he hadn’t thought about is a flat out lie, which IMO is an insult to everyone, not just Wincest shippers. Does the man have no self respect at all, why would you contradict yourself in the face of such overwhelming evidence? Instead of either ignoring all the people calling him out, or addressing it with another tweet saying ‘yeah, that happened’ or something similar he chose, I repeat, CHOSE the route of claiming he didn’t realise he was being offensive to people who felt ‘triggered’ by him using the word Wincest. He basically shat all over an entire ship and large sector of the fandom in an attempt to appease his own fan base which consists of a lot of children (or those that act like children) who have no idea what RL is like.
Once again, he’s reinforced the idea that if you shout loud enough at someone just because you don’t like something they said, they will back down and apologise for something even when there’s nothing to apologise for. If he wants to be such a role model then he could easily have pointed out that a fictional ship doesn’t condone RL incest, any ACTUAL trauma people have suffered because of RL situations, and made an effort to make sure people understand that. He COULD have used it as an opportunity to do some good in the fandom by encouraging people to build bridges, to accept that people are entitled to their beliefs and that sometimes we see things differently but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t treat others with BASIC HUMAN DECENCY because of it. Instead he YET AGAIN chose to show that he cares more about what Minions think of him, keeping them onside to constantly stroke his unbelievably fragile ego in everything he does.
It is my understanding that Misha is big on (or claims to be big on) putting positive energy out into the world, treating people with respect, helping others and accepting people for who they are, not who you want them to be… all this after YEARS of consistently practising what he preaches only when it suits him. He sends out a message that it’s perfectly OK to bully, to spread hate, to draw attention to yourself at the cost of others, to throw colleagues and friends under the bus and at the same time use them to further your own agenda and get hits for your YouTube channel. Is this really the legacy he wants to leave? Is this an environment he wants his own kids to grow up in as well as future generations? Is this what he thinks is a valuable contribution as a human being? JFC, the arrogance, hypocrisy and the need for constant validation this man exhibits is nothing short of cringeworthy… actually it’s beyond that. It’s deplorable behaviour, it’s not new, and he will continue to act like this for as long as he’s being enabled and this harmful cycle needs to end.
I have friends IRL and online who are (now, possibly, were) big Misha fans, who have supported him from either the beginning of his run on the show, or since they started watching, and this is how he repays this behaviour? He’s willfully alienating decent people (including multishippers) all to make himself look good by being seen to do everything he can not to offend people. Spoiler alert, you DID offend people, you continue to do so time and again and we’ve had enough. I can’t imagine how exhausting it must be to be such a perpetual people pleaser, but let me say it’s not doing you any favours in any way, shape or form.
Misha, you are *not* a role model, you’re *not* someone to look up to when you can't live up to the ideals you preach. You’re spitting in the face of people who have supported you even after some questionable things in the past, who gave you the benefit of the doubt because we’re all human and we all make mistakes. The key to growing as a person is not to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over, understanding *why* what you said and/or did was a mistake and making a concerted effort to make changes. I don’t ever see you doing that, you will continue down this path of only caring about Minions under the guise of caring for people in general. You are transparent, you are sad and despite the fact I’ve never particularly liked you, I didn’t speak up because I didn’t want to get involved in the drama. Well now I have spoken up and I’m saying you’re a disgrace, you have no respect for other people and nobody is fooled anymore. If it hadn’t been this tweet it would have been something else, but I for one am glad it happened so soon after the show ended so we can finally be rid of the limpet-like behaviour. It’s over, let it go for the sake of what dignity you might have left, for the sake of your family and friends and for the sake of anyone who isn’t capable of seeing through your ‘it’s a joke’ mentality.
You have been weighed, you have been measured and you have been found wanting. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, Misha.
For anyone who made it to the end of my ramble, thank you. This has been a cathartic exercise and I’m drawing a line under it now, I don’t think I could possibly make my thoughts any clearer. I urge you not to get caught up in any petty squabbles with his Minions, let’s celebrate J2 and other cast and crew members who have shown us all respect and who I am proud to call part of the SPN family. There’s always one member of the family who needs to be frozen out for the good of everyone else.
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Hi!
I'm Chinese. In my country, lots of people tend to ship some incestous couples like wincest or maxicest.
Meanwhile, some of us think foreigners like American or Korean tend to not ship some incestous couples like we do. I'm wondering if it is true, or just bias? And some of us think the reasons why foreigners don't ship incestous couples is beacuse they're born in a big family and have a lot of siblings. I don't think it is true.
Do you think a lot of foreigners like American don't ship incestous couples is true? And what is the reason that the foreigners tend to not ship some incestous couples like Chinese and Japanese?
Hello!
Thank you so much for sharing your perspective and asking this question! It's really interesting to hear what you've said.
Sometimes I think it's hard to know what people really think because the conversation can be dominated by certain types of people. Those who disapprove strongly of shipping incestuous couples can sometimes - often, it feels like - make their voices heard and create an environment where those who do like those couples or who don't really care one way or another don't feel comfortable speaking up. Many incestuous shippers have been scared into silence.
Also, sometimes the only way we have of getting a sense of what fandom is thinking is on social media and blogging sites, but that's usually not the whole picture. Only a fraction of people who watched Supernatural participate online in the fandom, so you're never going to know what the majority of them really think. This doesn't apply with all non-canon incestuous couples, but in terms of Wincest, you just know it sparked a ton of shippers, even though they're not reading/posting fic and things like that.
I do think there can be cultural differences between countries, but I also particularly think that there's an anglophone online culture against incest that has gotten worse over the past few years.
I have never seen any evidence that incest shipping is more common among people with no siblings. But it would be very interesting if we could somehow know that incest shipping was a lot more prevalent in a place like China that does not have as many families with multiple children.
There are lots of incest shippers in the United States and Korea and anywhere where fandom is present, but I can't say whether there are less, in the sense of a percentage or a per capita rate, so to speak. And again, less judgment keeping the shippers down is probably also a factor.
I couldn't exactly answer your question, Anon, but I hope the discussion was relevant. Thank you for bringing this up!
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Same anon as before, who's now been dubbed "the cockles anti". First of all, I'm not a cockles anti, I'm anti everyone who's an asshole to Jensen or to Dean, and that happens to include Misha and his cult. But it also includes the Jared stans who are always slandering him, the shippers on both the cockles and tinhatters sides, the cockles fans who pretend to care about Jensen, only to insert Misha into everything, to go and harass his new coworkers, to give his real fans a bad rep, the tinhatters who say they love Jensen, but only love him as long as he's sacrificing his own wellbeing for Jared, the wincest stans who think that Dean can't and shouldn't be allowed to have his own life or personhood, the "Jensen fans" who humiliate Jensen to hype up his wife (though I've not seen any actual Jensen fans put him down in favour of his wife, so I'm going to assume it's actually the hellers, who I have seen do that, and we were just thrown into this category in a rumour started by the tinhatters, or hellers, I'm not picky, to make us look bad or to make the hellers look more valid and like the typical Jensen fan. Spoiler alert, they are not). The reason my initial message focused on Misha's cult is because people were acting like they're any better than the Jared side. No one was defending the tinhatters or the bullies who are Jared's fans, if they had been, I'd have pointed out how bad they are as well (I believe I did anyway, in comparison, but sure, let's ignore that to act like the poor victimized group here is the Misha fans).
Now, there's a few things I'd like to say, about the flurry of anons that have been sent in response to what I said, basically saying "I'm not like other shippers". First of all, every single one has talked about how they, unlike the other ones, follow boundaries. I have two things to say about that. A, I don't believe that. I just don't, because every single shipping account I've ever seen, cockles or destiel, or even just a Misha fan, has been so disgusting towards Jensen. But, let's argument's sake, say that that's because I just haven't seen the "normal" ones that "have boundaries". Which boundaries are those? If someone was like, I ship destiel but I know it's not real, and I'm not going to harass and threaten and slander Jensen over it, I'm not going to act like I know better than the guy who's been Dean for 15 years, I'd be like, okay, I guess you have boundaries. I don't know what show you're watching, but fine. But the minute you start projecting that onto a real person, with real feelings and thoughts and relationships, you're already out of line. I know that the interweb has skewed people's sense of boundaries and respect, but that's messed up. No matter how much fun you're having, it's still wrong. I wouldn't want to walk into my office and find people spreading rumours about me. He's a person too, and it's messed up. And I understand that Misha's a fucking asshole, who only cares about himself, and has been egging on these dangerous individuals, but the rumours aren't just about him. So his "hints" and "coded messages" are not a free license to make up lies about Jensen. You're breaking boundaries by doing that, no matter how much you tell yourself that you're not, so you can still feel righteous and entitled.
Another thing I have to point out, that's been a pattern in all of these messages is the "if" clause. Every single message has included a paragraph about "IF Jensen said destiel and cockles weren't real, I'd still love him, that's just his opinion". Which tells me that the opposite is true. First of all, his work and especially his life and relationships, are not a matter of opinion, those are facts. Respecting someone includes respecting their right to speak about their own life and acknowledging that they are an authority over their own life and thoughts and feelings. But second, the fact that so many of them have said this, that they'd still love him, shows that the opposite is true. Because guess what, there's no IF about it. He's said time and time again that destiel isn't real and that Dean does not have those feelings for Castiel. So, so many damn times. "Destiel does not exist", "where is destiel real?", "I have not played it like that [which was AFTER 15x18, just in case someone wants to be all "he's changed his mind"]. He's also shut down the rumours about him and Misha every single time. When the assholes showed up to his face to ask about clothes sharing, he told them that they weren't sharing, he'd given them away. If someone donates clothes to goodwill, are they dating every person who gets those? I think not. Misha wore them in public on purpose to egg on the shippers, I know that. That doesn't mean that he's dating Jensen, just because he's wearing his donated clothes. I mean, Jensen has packed extra clothes for Jared before. By that logic, they must be married by now. When Misha was being cringey af in that gish video last spring and kept saying "I love you" and "I miss you" to get him to say it back and get crumbs for the shippers so he himself could stay relevant to his own cult, what did Jensen do? He called him "brother" (as Dean has called Castiel, several times, and Benny and Lee. I think it's time for this side of shippers, who tell the wincest fans that they're gross for shipping incest, to realize that they're doing the exact same thing. Two sides of the same coin) and talked about how he'd not seen him outside of work. At all. There's an infinite amount of more examples of Jensen saying that destiel doesn't exist and cockles doesn't exist. The people who are still saying "IF he said that", the "if" is there because they refuse to listen to him. The "if" is there because they don't really love or respect him, because if they did, they'd respect his words rather than pretending he never said them. The "if" is there, because his words say that their fantasies aren't true, but they ignore those so they can keep spreading these lies and blame Jensen for them, so they can feel validated. The "if" is there, because at the end of the day, they really do not care about him, beyond as a prop in their fantasies.
P.S. Since the original message, all the messages in response have acted as if I'm delusional for calling it like it is, and I've been called homophobic for thinking that it's inappropriate to spread lies about an actual human being. And yet, every new message that comes in, proves my point one way or another. So, all in all, I'm not mad about it.
I know I just posted about not sharing any “shipper wars” messages anymore but this one I wanted to share. I wanted you to get a chance to explain yourself, and I think you summed up a lot of things that I’ve also thought!
I don’t have anything else to add because you’ve done an amazing job vocalizing your views. I will say that I’m sorry (but not surprised) that you’re being called homophobic for thinking that lying about a person is wrong. That makes no sense on any planet, even the planet of wild stans.
<3
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I just don't understand how hellers see Dean calling Castiel his family, being sad that he died, saying sorry that he lashed out at him when he was grieving his mom, trying to find him in a place full of monsters so they can get back to earth together and going 'subtext' and then when they see all these:
Dean being jealous of Ruby and the whole arc treating him like a spouse being cheated on
Sam being Dean's siren
The 'it's a terrible life' episode where they're just two strangers planning to run away to hunt together
Sam calling Dean a male model when he doesn't remember him & Dean describing Sam as having soft, delicate features and luxurious hair
Dean's love interest saying she knew they were over the moment she saw Sam when under the truth spell
Sam and Amelia having to choose between each other and their respective partners (she chooses Sam, Sam chooses Dean)
They practically got married in sacrifice and never committed to a romantic relationship once after that (both Amara and Eileen were supernaturally influenced and once that was addressed those arcs were done)
Sam expressing his fear of Dean choosing Amara over him when affected by her magic (Amara that had kissed Dean and had been referred to as the one Dean's pining after)
Bob Singer when talking about the Jack arc called them his parents (Sam the 'mom', Dean the 'dad' lol)
A character talking about losing the love of her life (her husband) and Dean basically thinking 'ikr, I almost lost Sam too!' Like that's where his mind goes, it's not subtle.
Dean always screaming for Sam when he's at his most vulnerable (hell, MoC nightmares, Malak box nightmares)
Them being soulmates (not just in DSOTM, but also in other episodes where they show how entangled the brothers' souls are through either dialogue or visuals. Though I admit while this can be taken as wincest subtext, I see it as a celebration of their platonic bond)
.........they go 'just normal brotherly love guys, they'll hang out on holidays but their true happiness is being with romantic partners away from each other like the way healthy minded siblings do in real life.' And yes, that's how siblings should act. Sam and Dean aren't normal siblings though, far from it.
it's why they hate Sam so much. Because Dean loves his Sammy the way they want him to love Castiel.
also man lasdkjfaoweiafd just laying out all the incest subtext. It's why I think most of the destiel shippers who demand wincest shippers go away and how terribly icky incest is to their sensibilities is generally a front. If sibling incest triggered you, they wouldn't watch Supernatural.
but anyway remember in Changing Channels? Gabe said that as it was in heaven, it must be on earth? So, my reading is that their bond is basically written into the stars.
Amusingly enough, the writers sort of ignored Michael/Lucifer stuff. But they kept on with their Sam+Dean is otp.
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You re-blogged a post which calls shipping wincest a crime. The OP of that post ships cockles. I really don't understand in what universe shipping RPF and making fantasies about living breathing people is okay but shipping a fictional ship is a crime. It's like upside down world.
Jensen hates RPF. He's had issues with his family members because of crazy cockles shippers. He despises how people post sexual cockles content everywhere, for eg twitter etc. He also gets sexually harassed a lot by the so called fans in conventions nevermind all the disgusting things they post about him online. Just look at how cockles shippers are calling Jensen a dog/slut and thinking he wears a collar for Misha. All because he had some shadows on his neck. It's right now there on twitter, people are literally tagging him.
I just find it funny when cockles shippers condemn wincest when they do and post disturbing shit every single day. Not to mention how much they degrade and harass Jensen. But I guess fictional incest shipping which hurts literally zero people is still evil but real life harassment and degradation of a man they supposed to stan in a-okay. Like I said, upside down world.
I hope for the day when people stop treating Jensen like a sex object and start respecting and appreciating him for his talent. But sadly seems like that day will never come given how almost all his so called fans are RPF shippers. Dude definitely deserves better fans.
Alright, Anon...
I'm only kidding. These reactions literally popped into my head when I saw I had a new ask and then opened it to see the words 'wincest', 'cockles', and 'jensen ackles' popping out at me. It's just a reflex now, I suppose, after this last week and a half or whatever it's been. I know you are just starting a discussion here and speaking your thoughts. I just needed a laugh and figured we could both share a chuckle. (that scene with Kate McKinnon makes me laugh every single time) As for your specific ask, though, let's dive right in, shall we?
Just a heads up, I wrote an entire essay back to you on this. Your ask gave me a lot to think about and that I wanted to discuss.
I'm putting it under the cut:
So for the post you mentioned I reblogged, please understand that I do not check every blog I reblog a post from. If it's a blog I follow, that's one thing. As a matter of fact, I'm going to break down my Tumblrina process for you: If it's from a blog I followed, it popped up on my dash, I liked it, and then reblogged it. If I don't follow them, then that means, I found the posts in the tag (whatever subject it may be, i.e. spn, dean winchester, bellarke, eddie diaz, etc.), agreed with it or just liked it in general, and decided to reblog it (or it popped up on my dash as a reblog from a blog I follow). The only blogs that I check out are a few faves I have for certain fandoms (which I am usually following) and ones that I am checking out to possibly follow, and any new followers of mine that pop up (in case they share/reblog interesting posts about a topic that I particularly like/shared interests, i.e. 911, game of thrones, etc.).
The reason I reblogged said post is because I felt that the theme of the post rings true, especially coming off of the recent experience I just had with a certain intense shall-we-say portion of Jensen fans (aka AA's). The post that you're referring to, despite the op's personal thoughts on wincest that was included, stated that no matter your ship, favorite character, or favorite actor (including their wives), basically in the SPN fandom, there is a bunch of hate going around and everyone is fighting with each other. Speaking to my recent experience and seeing it exemplified in other tags (that have nothing at all to do with Jensen himself), I agree. Whether it's hellers vs the anti destiel crowd, or Cockles stans vs J2 stans, or AA's vs Jared stans, or Danneel stans vs anti Danneel folks, or minions vs Jared stans, or wincest vs destiel, I mean the list goes on and on and on and on and on and...you get my point. So yes, I reblogged that post, because I tend to agree with the core message of it and that's what I do with posts I agree with.
Now, since you specifically mentioned Wincest, Cockles, and Jensen in relation to my reblogging the post, I'm going to focus on those three points:
Regarding your mention about what the op said about wincest being a crime, while I am not in their head and cannot tell you exactly what they were 100% thinking or feeling at the time of posting, when I read the post, I took it as they meant the idea of incest in general is a crime. And it is. While I don't pretend to know the laws of each individual country on each different continent, here in the US, it is absolutely a crime. So the op is not wrong on that particular fact.
While you claim that a fictional incest ship is not hurting anyone, please allow me to break it down in how it actually does when it comes to this particular incestuous pairing from this particular fandom:
1) Rules of the SPN universe do not include incest: while some people may question, 'wait, but in Game Of Thrones didn't Jon sleep with his aunt? Weren't people shipping that?' and they would be correct, the fact of the matter is that GRRM set up the ASOIAF universe to have the incest rule (modeled on our actual world history, meaning cousins married as did siblings at one time, even an uncle and niece never mind the vast age differences going on as gross as that just made me feel to type out, I actually may puke rn) and thus HBO/D&D also followed it in the GoT showverse. So, yes, while incest is taboo across the board in modern society, in that particular fictional universe, it's a rule. SPN did not set up that same rule or ever apply it at any point in the series. Their intention was never to make Dean and Sam as a possible romantic pairing.
2) Dean was Sam's parent which changes that whole sibling dynamic completely: While I am still not a wincest fan nor do I support it (and never will, I will show you why in this very post, Anon), I do get that some people ship what they ship. For example, I don't doubt that if Cas and Dean were actual blood brothers, due to the chemistry both J&M had, there would still be that group of people out there that would ship it, too. I would not be part of that group myself, but I have no doubt that they would exist. However, here's the real big problem wrapped up into this particular relationship: Dean was Sam's parent. Something he himself confirms in dialogue with Mary in season 12, that he had to be a father and a mother to Sam, to keep him safe. Which is reiterated by the story line itself and what we have seen for Sam and Dean all 15 seasons. So that love you see between the brothers, particularly on Dean's end, is indeed pure and special. But it's the love of a parent and their son. I've mentioned before (after the finale aired) on how I was in a similar position to Dean which is one of the reasons I believe I identified with his character and connected with his story. People who have gone through similar parentification often will look at their siblings (or whoever they had to be in a parental role for at the time) as the ones they have to go out of their way to take care of, to make sure that they're okay, and yes, be a parent to them, regardless of their age(s). Of course, they are going to have that bond that may not have happened otherwise. I always felt as if I was a parent to my siblings and trust me when I tell you, that it takes a lot of work to undo that parentification and not only put yourself back in the right role (as an older sibling and not their mom or dad) but to also set up new boundaries and have a proper relationship with said sibling(s).
If you pay attention to the story throughout the 15 years (until the finale), the writers worked hard to set up a healthy relationship between Dean and Sam to where they would again be brothers and it would be more balanced between them. Because that's what they both deserved, it was healthier for both of them, and they could no longer continue to function in the old dynamic (they both had grown too much for that). That is why that scene in 15x17 where Sam begs Dean not to sacrifice Jack, that particular piece of dialogue, is so powerful (besides what it finally confirms what was long suspected about John and exactly what Dean went through to protect Sam). Now, if you take Dean and Sam out of the equation and put in two brothers from anywhere else (let's say Damon and Stefan Salvatore from TVD or Klaus and Elijah from TO or even Nathan and Lucas from OTH), while some might see chemistry there and ship it, it may have the ick factor for some (because again it's still incest, regardless of being fictional, in fictional universes where acceptable incest is not part of the rules), but I don't think you would see as strong a reaction to it, maybe? Maybe you would, I could be wrong, but I can tell you that from my personal perspective, the whole parent/child thing here is a VERY big ick factor for me and I will never support the ship.
3) Wincest basically glorifies the abuse that Dean (and Sam) suffered: You might be thinking, 'WHAT? How do you even get that?' Well, Anon, I'll tell you. I cannot begin to count how many posts I've seen on here (and on the bird app from people cross-posting those tweets here) where certain wincest fans enjoy the co-dependency that Dean and Sam have. As a matter of fact, a few months ago, I came across yet another post saying how much they loved it and I finally felt compelled to post something on that topic. Co-dependency is a byproduct of abuse. Google it, do your research, ask a mental health professional or an abuse expert, do whatever you gotta do but co-dependency 👏 in 👏 most 👏 cases 👏 is 👏 a 👏 consequence 👏 of 👏 abuse 👏 and/or 👏 neglect 👏 that 👏 formed 👏 in 👏 childhood. As someone who is an abuse survivor and had years of work to put in to overcome not only the trauma but things like co-dependency and parentification, it absolutely floors me when I see posts like this and the op's genuinely think it is an earmark of their ship that should be celebrated. Tbf, I am not saying all wincest fans think along those lines, but the ones that do, well they are concerning. Either they are completely clueless to the horrible truth of that co-dependency and all it entails or they're aware but just don't care (which is the more horrifying and terrible option imho).
And it also glorifies the abuse they suffered by the point I made above about the parentification. That is something a parent does to a child and it forces them to grow up way too fast (i.e. Dean being left at a young age with a gun to watch after Sammy and care for him, cook for him, make sure all of his basic needs were met, protect him from any monsters that might show up, when John would leave them in a hotel room for a few days to go hunting or bed Adam's mom, either one really), and it's something that has ripple effects later in life. So if people enjoy that parentification dynamic (such as 'omg Dean so loves Sam since he cooked him dinner, cooking is Dean's love language and they are soulmates' which doesn't take into account that actually while Dean may enjoy cooking for those he loves, it's been shown throughout the show that he cooks for Sam in order to take care of him while also it's something he actually feels he's good at, meaning he's meeting Sam's basic needs again - season 8 when Sam is going through the trials is a prime example), that glorifies the abuse since they're enjoying the byproducts of it. Again, I'm not saying all wincest fans are saying 'yay, co-dependency and parentification, so sweet omg', but the ones who are and actually post that shit on SM - yeah, they need to either do some research or some deep inner reflection, whichever applies.
4) Wincest being seen as a QPR and therefore, is covered under the LGBTQIA umbrella, which is just...no: In recent months, I was told by a wincest fan on here that some see their ship as a QPR, aka a queer platonic relationship, and that I obviously needed to do more research because I clearly didn't understand that Sam and Dean were very much LGBTQIA. 🙄 If you read the article I just linked you or even google it yourself, this term does not apply to Sam and Dean. Not only because they are brothers (and are exemplifying a parent/child dynamic as I mentioned above) but also because this was a term that aro and ace individuals used to describe a relationship that they might enter that did not include sex or any type of romantic type of love. (obviously, it's up to the individuals who enter into a QPR how they conduct it between them, I'm not telling anyone how they should do so or anything like that, and obviously QPR's are not exclusive to a single community) While Dean and Sam are committed to each other as brothers, that term is not meant in the relationship type of way if that makes sense. Dean is not avoiding dating or having casual sex because he's in a committed QPR with Sam. Sam dates Eileen and Dean encourages him to in the last season, so again, no exclusion or commitment there. It's not a QPR. And the fact that a portion of the fandom tries to claim this time and time again, and demands that wincest be given the same consideration as say the idea of destiel or Cesar/Jesse or Charlie/Rowena when mentioning the LGBTQIA umbrella is not only problematic but also ridiculous and hurtful. I identify as LGBTQIA myself and a family member of mine is aroace. When these fans make this claim to justify the romantic shipping of Dean and Sam, it's hurtful to that particular part of the LGBTQIA community and disregards the reason the term was created in the first place, while flying in the face of those who are actually LGBTQIA. (don't we have to deal with enough of people equating queer love with incest, pedophilia, and other taboo and vile things enough as it is? Look at that whole rant from Denver Con 2021, for crying out loud) So yeah, that's a no, and like I said, it's hurtful.
5) Wincest sometimes translates to J2 shipping which also quite possibly makes Jensen uncomfortable as well: While you mentioned that Jensen is uncomfortable with Cockles (and I'm not disagreeing with you but more on that later), imagine how uncomfortable he (and even Jared) are with the idea of wincest and of course, J2. We already know of Jensen's "Destiel doesn't exist" soundbite and what you mentioned about his feelings on Cockles (just out of curiosity, did he ever say this at a con or in an interview? I mean the part where you said he had to tell someone in his family that he and Misha weren't actually involved), but I think I remember somewhere that it was mentioned by Jensen (in the early days, at a con with Jared, around season 3 I think?) that he wasn't too comfortable with wincest. (I unfortunately do not have a receipt for this, I'm going purely on memory here which it was 12 years ago so yeah, if anyone knows what I'm referring to, can they send me the link?) Not to mention the show's attitude towards wincest in general (see scene A and scene B), and even Jensen's very own explanation about a scene that he and Jared reworked (in the recent Inside Of You podcast), where I don't feel he was making an anti-wincest statement or confirming/denying anything about the ship like some believe, but it does confirm through his own words that he and Jared do not view Dean and Sam romantically when playing the characters and acting our their stories. Even though he was just talking about him and Jared deciding to switch lines for the scene, he specifically says that the original sequence felt too much like a couple breaking up in a romcom and they were "not Sam and Dean Winchester". While he was only explaining why he felt the scene wasn't working for him and Jared (who came up with the solution to the issue by flipping the script), it's right there.
So while Jensen (and Jared) may not mind people shipping the brothers because they are fictional characters and may just have the attitude 'ship and let ship', when it translates to J2 (which tbf, destiel sometimes translates to Cockles as well), that's when it potentially could take on a life of its own and make either actor whose name is involved uncomfortable. Where people actually speculate and spread the false narrative that Jensen and Jared are in a romantic relationship and secretly have been for years, that both of their wives (and now families) are covers for them because they're both Texas dudebro men who cannot come out publicly never mind to their families of origin and people from their hometowns. (which again, tbf, some Cockles shippers make very similar speculations about Jensen and Misha, and some of them spread very similar false narratives about those two) Now, I don't know Jensen personally nor do I know for a fact if he has ever spoken publicly about this topic or if Jared has even, but I highly doubt that he is comfortable with that/those kind of speculation/rumors spreading throughout the fandom (enough that it somehow gets back to him or his family or his co-workers, etc.), whether it's him and Jared or him and Misha (as you mentioned). However, because I don't know for a fact or have evidence to support this thought, I can't say that 100%. But I'm assuming that he may not be completely comfortable with the RPF shipping as you claimed, no matter who it involves. I'm sure if people started speculating that he and Michael Rosenbaum were romantically and/or sexually involved, or even him and Alaina Huffman let's say, that he would not be thrilled with that either. After all, the man is married, he has kids and a family, and his privacy should be respected as such. No one should be speculating about his sexuality or his romantic orientation.
And tbf to J2 and Cockles shippers alike, I have seen some from both camps (particularly in the case of Cockles since I don't really traverse into the J2 tag obviously) begging their fellow shippers to stop posting tweets and tagging Jensen for example. Begging them to stop bringing it to the actors' attention, because it's purely meant to be a fandom thing. Because they don't want to be disrespectful to Jensen or Danneel or their family, or to Jared and Gen, or to Misha and Vicky (I know this has obviously changed now but I do remember these types of pleadings happening when they were still married). But unfortunately, there are some in both camps who take it way past the line than it should have ever gone and then of course, there is that small group for each one that takes it to the extreme.
So I completely understand what you mentioned about Jensen's discomfort with Cockles and I heavily sympathize with him if he did indeed have to confirm to family members of his that he was not in a relationship with Misha. No one should have to do that, especially when it's just fantasy-fueled rumors and speculations that people who do not know him in his personal or professional life made about him (and/or Misha).
Personally, I don't ship Cockles. I never have and never will. Same goes for J2, and even Jenneel and Jarevieve. I don't ship real people couples. To me, Jensen and Misha are just friends, same goes for Jared and Jensen (regardless of the prequelgate drama as of late). Jared seems happy in his marriage to Gen, Jensen with Danneel, and Misha was with Vicky when they were married. I know a lot of people speculate otherwise, RPF shippers and non-RPF shippers alike, some anti people included. But that's what the guys continue to show us through SM and con panels, etc. So until let's say Jensen or Misha comes out and says 'yeah, it's official, we're dating' or Jensen and Jared say it or even Danneel and Gen (obviously I'm throwing out hypotheticals here), then I don't buy into any of the speculation. It's truly none of my business who any of these men are involved with romantically and/or sexually.
Now as far as RPF shippers go, if they're doing it respectfully and quietly, I don't completely see the harm (like Nian back when they dated, tho tbf I was never in the TVD fandom so I have no idea if they ever had any negative experiences like that when it came to their fans). But when it's being brought to the actors and possibly affecting their personal lives and/or actual relationships, that's when it becomes a problem. So, once again, if Jensen actually went through the experience that you mentioned, then that's definitely a problem, and people should be more respectful and considerate of not only his feelings but also his personal life. I, too, would be hopeful that Jensen would have only positive and respectful interactions with his fans. I cannot even begin to imagine what this man has endured over the years (i.e. with someone doxxing his family's address, sexual solicitation of him solo and him and Danneel together) or what any of the other SPN cast (and even crew) has gone through when it comes to certain parts of the fandom.
As for the hypocrisy you mentioned, as a general statement/point, yes, you are correct. But tbf to that op, the point they made in that post was not hypocritical. It literally was about the hatred and fighting and overall toxicity in the SPN fandom, across the board. They're not wrong about that. Just as you're not wrong about the point you made about a lot of supposed Jensen fans objectifying him and harassing him (not only sexually, when some fans get mad at him, like say with the prequelgate thing, they actually tweet him horrific things as well). I, too, hate to see all of that and I wish that Misha himself would stop adding fuel to the fire (like some of the stuff you mentioned here, the whole 'i like to be on top' thing, etc.). But tbf to Misha, I don't see Jensen discouraging it at all. They do the photo ops, Jensen has responded to his tweets in the past (nothing I've seen recently I think), he didn't discourage Danneel from posting that picture of him reading Misha's poetry book nor did he tell her to take it down after she tagged Misha on where his heart was in the picture (they were doing promo for the book obviously). Hell, he didn't even ask Danneel to take down the photo she posted of him in his...pajamas? Underclothes? (I have no idea what) In order to get her followers' (aka Jensen's fans') attention to what she was posting about and literally said "now that I have your attention" in the caption. And that's his wife lol! It's still objectification regardless of whether it's approved by Jensen, her, or their family. So, tbf to some of these people who see Jensen as a sexual object or desirable fantasy (and/or ship him with other real people), if Jensen is truly that uncomfortable, he needs to step up and take a stronger stance. Assert stronger boundaries for himself and his family. Regardless of whatever fans he may lose or whatever lashback he may receive.
Because when he says things like 'Easy' when fans ask him to look as if he's in love with Misha at a photo op, or he does a skit onstage that is a recreation of a humorous accidental kissing scene from a well known romcom with the guy, well that's going to continue the objectification as well as the feeding of the fantasies. (basically, it continues to add to the problem and not stop it in its tracks) It's going to add fuel to the fire, especially in this fandom. And I would think that at this point, he, Misha, Danneel, Jared, and Gen are all well aware of that. In a level world, all of the fandom would see it as the jokes the guys intend for them to be, and not as evidence for their theories of Jensen being secretly in love with Misha or Jared or whoever. They wouldn't speculate on every little word they say or rewatch interviews of them 62 times with a how-to-read-body-language guide at the ready. They would just take what these people say at face value and stop assigning tone and intention, which then would not leave any room for wild speculation or any out there theories. But, sadly, that's not the world we live in. There are some who try to live like that and make the world a better place, and then there are some who just continue to make it a certified shitshow for the rest of us. But, I digress.
And a disclaimer: I sincerely hope this doesn't come across as me saying it's Jensen's fault or Misha's or Danneel's or Jared's or Gen's, because that is NOT what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that if either man (meaning Jensen or Misha) is truly uncomfortable with the sexual related content that people are posting for Cockles as you mentioned, there are steps both of them can take to try to scale it back or to take a stronger stance. They have every right to assert boundaries with their fans. I myself, while not shipping Cockles, have mostly had positive interactions with Cockles fans on here (sadly, I cannot say the same for J2 fans), and I would like to say that if any of those individuals heard Jensen or Misha stating that they were uncomfortable with any of it, that those individuals would sit up and go 'alright no more top!Misha or bottom!Jensen' jokes'. Not that they were the ones making them, I'm just using an example from within the Cockles fandom to make my point.
So to sum up my points:
wincest may be a fictional ship but it can actually be hurtful (from all of the points I made above) and not as innocent as you implied in your ask
I personally do not ship Cockles or any RPF - I don't judge others who do but if it is affecting said RP's in any way, shape, or form in a negative fashion, then yes, that is hurtful and needs to stop
Jensen (and the rest of the SPN cast as well) deserves respect and the utmost consideration - sexual content whether that be a picture of naked Jensen and Misha or a fic about how Jensen and Jared have sex on set should NEVER be brought to any of those actors, on SM, in fan mail (do people still write that even?), or in person - that is not just crossing a line, that's crossing a whole goddamn stadium of lines - imagine if they showed up to your work place with naked pictures of you and your co-worker or asked you to autograph a story where your co-worker is continually railing you in your office while your significant other sits outside in the waiting room completely unaware - if that's really happening, it's cringe-inducing and it needs to stop, that is the very definition of harassment, real people equals real world rules, remember that
I think I covered everything you mentioned in your ask, Anon. Idk about you but I am exhausted.
But I am glad you opened up a discussion about all of this and gave me your viewpoint. Actually, due to all of the drama recently due to this fandom, I've been going through this blog (slowly and surely), removing certain content in order to clean it up and get everything organized because I plan to take a long break to recharge. I'm pretty much removing most of my SPN content (except metas I've written and my Jensen posts because I am a fan of his contrary to the AA rhetoric). I am not ashamed to say that this recent experience with my asks has just absolutely sucked the energy right out of me and I need a break. But I will say I do appreciate when people do come in respectfully and start civil discussions, whether they agree with me or not, so I thank you for that. At least that was how I took your ask. ;-)
I hope you have a great rest of your evening, Anon.
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Seeing some of bibros and Wincest shippers pretend 15x18 doesn't exist drives me crazy.
Like I get it, it's backlash to Hellers being finale denialists, but it makes no sense to me. My reasons for hating the finale of Supernatural has nothing to do with me being a Destiel shipper. I sit with my fix-its and headcanons and coffee and spite not because I didn't get to see Cas and Dean kiss onscreen. I hate 15x20 because of what they did to Dean. The fact that they killed him in a anticlimactic way when he was finally happy, and when he finally knew that the people around him cared. I hate the finale because of what they did to Sam. He spent the rest of his life grieving his brother, which is co-dependency I might expect from Dean, but not Sam. I hate what they did to Eileen. The fact that she wasn't even in it? Instead replaced by a blurry figure in the distance. I hate the finale because of what they did to Cas. They mentioned his name twice but didn't bother to have him or Misha on the bridge in the end. Didn't bother to explain how he got out of the Empty. I hated that they receeded on 15 years of character development and didn't bother to hold up what is arguably the most important theme the show is founded on, "Family doesn't end in blood". But in the end the only family that mattered were the blood ones. And I get that Sam and Dean's bond matters, I really do. But the show that aired in 2005 is not the same as the one that aired in 2020. No mention of Jody? Claire? Alex? Kaia? Patience? Donna was only mentioned once. What about AU!Charlie and her girlfriend who had mere minutes of screen time? I hate the ending because it doesn't match up timeline-wise. Vampires? There's no mention of them in John's journal, and that's canon. I hate the ending because it did exactly what Becky said was terrible. I hate the ending because we didn't get to see Dean's response to Cas's confession, whether it be positive or not, nor did we see Sam's reaction to being reunited with Eileen. I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
Whereas the only reason for hating 15x18 I can think of is because you don't like Cas. Or you don't like Misha. Or you don't ship Destiel and you wish Cas had kept his mouth shut. All of these a valid opinions you're entitled to have, but it pales in comparison to the reasons why 15x20 just wasn't the Supernatural we know today. I don't think those reasons warrant pretending an episode doesn't exist. (And I realize not all of mine do either, but there's enough of them.) And there are plenty of episodes I hate. Even ones the entire fandom collectively despise, but we don't pretend they don't exist just because we don't like them. Despair actually made sense. It had character growth a progression for both Cas and Dean, and it actually managed to tie up loose ends and have a somewhat interesting plot. But the finale of Supernatural didn't stay true to Supernatural, and everything the show is founded on, instead erasing character growth and managing to be a let down in ways that will affect fans for years to come.
And I get that I'm biased because I enjoyed Despair, but pretending it doesn't exist, especially with the amount of effort put into it and the fact that it's Misha's last proper appearance, just doesn't sit right with me.
#Sorry for the rant that was longer than expected.#Supernatural#Spn#Spn 15x18#Spn 15x20#Dean Winchester#Sam Winchester#Castiel#Destiel#Jody Mills#Donna Hanscum#Claire Novak#Kaia Nieves#Alex Supernatural#Eileen#Saileen#Supernatural finale#Charlie Bradbury#Patience Supernatural#Misha Collins#Jensen Ackles#Jared Padalecki#I talk too much.#*Spongebob Imagination Rainbow
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Hello! I found your blog via you amazingly summarizing all that's going on with the spn drama.
Due to my schedules, rl stuff, some of the arcs that didn't vibe with me, my availability to find a place to watch...the rollercoaster I was used to with this fandom was more me binging it in a weekend to going months to over a year without watching it. I still haven't watched the last season(but with a fandom this big it's pretty impossible not be spoiled so I more or less know what happened)
BUT oh great one I ask of thee for more information if you have it...other than being busy and whatnot, I'm not really one to keep up with the actors as well. So could you also maybe do a summary of all the stans? I'im seeing terms I haven't seen before. Who is Kelios(sp?)? Hellions?? probably messed it up but like...I guess what are the name of each legion? Who do they have alliance towards? What was their desires? Que paso?!?!?!?
Hi there! 'Some of the arcs that didn't vibe with me' me emotionally quitting Supernatural in Season 7 after they killed Castiel 😂 Anyway I totally get it, I went through the same culture shock mid-last year when I got back into SPN and tried to find where fandom was at! There's really a LOT of lore and content after 15 years though so I'll just do the broad brushstrokes based on my impressions and personal stereotypes PLEASE remember this is oversimplifying groups and individuals to tendencies and I'm very biased! Also important that there are sub-factions within sub-factions - again, I'm simplifying here!
I've also linked to the 'Super-wiki' in terms of some definitions because the Super-wiki has pages for them where the Fandom-wiki does not. Great introduction actually - only in the Supernatural fandom. There are two Supernatural wikis. One, through curation and twitter activity, supports BiBro/Wincest factions and does not support Destiel users. One is more neutral or Destiel-friendly (I don't know that the Fandom wiki has a personality/social media presence per se). You cannot make this up. There is a factional war... within use of fandom wikis.
Destiel faction
People who primarily ship Dean/Cas, love Castiel and (often, although not always) Jack, and the 'found family' of Supernatural as well as the brothers, and like the post s3 seasons too. Hated 15.19 and 15.20 for killing Dean and ignoring the other characters/narrative arc of the show. Nicknamed 'Destihellers' by the Wincest faction as a derogatory term, 'reclaimed' and shortened as 'Hellers', a nickname they use affectionately to describe each other. See more info on nicknames here.
Sometimes also ship ‘Cockles’ (the ship between Misha Collins and Jensen Ackles) although generally speaking they're more respectful of the wives of the actors than J2 shippers, who are notoriously responsible for... a vast series of insane-fan misdemeanours. Historically most were also good at keeping RPF to themselves and not harassing celebrities with it directly, although recently, particularly with younger twitter fans, that has not been the case.
Sub-factions:
The ‘Desticule’ or ‘Destiel tumblr’ - general grouping of Destiel-shipping tumblr users around 20-30 years old, usually LGBT+, most who came back to the show post-15.18 after leaving it for various reasons including getting sick of the queerbaiting. Funniest bitches alive etc. and responsible for the best text posts you’ve ever seen. Can also start stupid discourse and in-group drama when they’re bored.
'POLOL' - People of Lots of Letters, a discord group (of tumblr and twitter users) that ran on the assumption Andrew Dabb was playing a hugely intricate game of 3D chess to do with gnostic symbolism among other things, and would make Destiel canon. Have since had their own factional sub-wars and fallen apart a bit. Some of their meta was and is good and interesting! Some of it was wildly off the mark. Now generally insist that Dabb/the writers were all pushing for Destiel canon and the network is entirely to blame.
Twitter fans (TikTok edition) - younger fans around 18 and younger who (FOR REASONS BEYOND ME) started watching the show around 2018-2020. Definition of 'stans'. Tend to be very loud and aggressive on twitter when Events Happen, which like. I do get, because they've grown up in a completely different media environment and this kind of Dinosaur Politicking around LGBT+ issues is beyond them. Fancam central. Anyway stream #CASTIEL for clear skin!
Twitter fans (AO3 edition) - older fans around 30+ who kept going with the show but either don't have a large tumblr presence or just prefer twitter. A lot of fic writers, GISH-ers, and BNFs in this group. Some of them are very cool and reasonable in their opinions, some of them act like the younger stans. Some of them too accepting of what happened wrt 15.19-20 in my opinion, because, in contrast to the younger twitter stans, they grew up expecting Destiel to NEVER be canon or respected. 'Can't believe we got this far' etc.
Multiship faction
Multishippers or shippers of things not as large as the two main behemoths . Sub-factions based on shipping, e.g. Megstiel and Sastiel. I don't think these groups are very large though, and seem to have very little influence in the Discourse.
Wincest faction
LARGE overlap with the 'BiBro' faction and their opinions, which I'll get to. Ship Sam and Dean romantically. Often pretend to be BiBros on places like twitter and reddit in order for outside groups to take their opinions more seriously. 'Wincesties' etc. are derogatory nicknames given by the Destiel faction.
Sub-factions:
Multiship fans - ship Sam and Dean but respect Castiel/the 'found family'. Politically overlap with the faction of multishippers, I think. I don't have a lot of insight on this group of people honestly, but I know they exist.
Bronlies - the typical BiBro and 'Wincest' shippers most people think of, twitter user 'Kelios' is one of the would-be ringleaders of this faction - typically tend to be older white midwestern women. Historically have been pretty nasty on twitter (leading to Robert Berens, writer who made Destiel canon, occasionally subtweeting Kelios). Also tend to ship 'J2' - and take it very seriously as a legitimate thing that is really real. This is called 'tinhatting'.
BiBro faction
People who think the show should JUST be about the brothers, love Supernatural s1-3 and everything after it should have been just like Supernatural s1-3. Hate Castiel, Jack, and the 'found family'. Largely loved 15.20. Go to literally any comments section on any Supernatural article and You Will Find Them complaining about how the show should just be about the Brothers. Tend to be older, straighter, and more conservative/Republican (and male) fans. (I am aware that the definition of 'BiBro' used to refer to people who just liked the brothers but there's no definitional difference now in the discourse.) The Wincest and BiBro faction are generally much more wealthy than the Destiel faction (they being younger and more diverse/queer/left-leaning in general) and would be the biggest revenue generators at conventions etc.
Sub-factions:
Reddit bros - literally anyone who visits r/supernatural. Well, that's not fair - there are people who post reasonable opinions on there, but it's pretty rare and they get downvoted a lot. Like to talk about 'toxic Destiel fans' 'ruining the show' and how Dean is a straight man who is straight and could never possibly be gay. Might even think the confession was platonic despite all evidence to the contrary. I'm Not Homophobic I Have Gay Friends, But No Gays on MY Show!
Old Guard - group of older fans who overlap strongly with the Wincest faction, but might not necessarily ship Wincest.
GA faction
'General Audience' - These are the group of audience members that aren't 'online' so to speak; most watch the show on TV as a Casual Viewing Experience (are therefore also sometimes referred to as 'casuals'. Mostly their opinions tend towards BiBros, but they have a vast range of baffling views thanks to being Not Online and usually Not caring about Supernatural that much or thinking that deeply about it.
Sub-factions:
People who simply watch Supernatural on TV and then don't think about it very much after that.
I said they weren't 'online' but that's not entirely true; I'd probably classify people on Supernatural Facebook Groups as GA, along with friends of friends who post statuses about how 15.20 was a neat finale that wrapped up the series.
Conclusion
Supernatural is famously the show that appeals to both Republicans and Democrats, literally All Orientations, so there's a WIDE range of factions. However, most warring online boils down to Destiel vs. Wincest/BiBro - the war that started in Season 4 and has simply never ended. In terms of the 'actors' and their stans, in general, Wincest/BiBro fans love Jared, like Jensen, and dislike Misha. Destiel fans love Misha, like Jensen, and dislike Jared. Of course as with everything, there are variations and this is just a generalisation. But that's the summary of it, from my perspective!
This didn't even get into Sam girls, Dean girls and Cas girls. God. Anyway.
Hope that answered your question, anon!
#for some reason read more does not work on my blog main page now? you'll have to click the permalink#season 17 time for a theme change tumblr has broken this one too much sigh#ask#anonymous#this might be the most controversial thing I've ever posted or I might escape with nobody noticing it. Only Two Outcomes#didn't mention any other factional ringleaders because well#I value my life etc.#unironically who will fund me writing the PhD on supernatural fandom etc. etc.#the graphs. the statistics. the sociological insights#kira for ts#supernatural spoilers#spn spoilers
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All I know of sheila is what i've read in your posts over the last, um, ten minutes --- but she exudes og wincest shipper c.2007-2008. Accurate?
A couple thoughts: I did not start watching the show through a certain lens. I was hooked by the acting and cinematography as well as the twisted fucked-up Winchester story. My only awareness of a fanbase were the “Destiel” people, whose eruption of outrage in re: Season 9, episode 3 is what made me start watching, out of curiosity. But all the other stuff – Wincest, etc. – wasn’t on my radar. I think that because I didn’t write my re-caps through a particular lens – defensive/offensive in re: my particular “ship” – because I was open to possibilities (in the story onscreen) – since the show ITSELF encourages that kind of ambiguity – the people who gravitated here were those who also liked to “swim in possibilities.” Who were interested in story and how stories are told.
There have been a couple of “either/or” people who showed up here, Sam Girls, Dean Girls, who “hated” Sam, or “hated” Dean, but they didn’t last long. (Member “You’re all a bunch of annoying cunts,” anyone?) In general, you fine people who read my SPN stuff are “both/and” people. We like the show and how it’s told. We like trying to parse it out, figure it out, we like to look at all the possibilities. This is why the discussions here have been so epic. We all have our takes, and strong takes, but we aren’t positional about our SHIPS. Because we aren’t interested only in our ships. We’re interested in the SHOW. The way I look at it is: I don’t “ship” the brothers. I’m a fan of the SHOW. As I became more aware of the fan battles – most of which I stay out of – I became aware of what I call the “consensus thinking” in the different factions. If you ship THIS one thing, then you also like/hate this other character. And it all seems agreed upon. If you ship THAT, you hate THAT arc. Etc. I am so glad I watched the show completely free of all that white noise.
I didn’t know I wasn’t supposed to “like” Amelia. I was open to the possibilities of that arc, and very curious about it. I like learning new things about Sam and Dean. People who are like “I hated Amelia, she was so rude” … that’s fine, it’s just that that’s not how I interact with stories. What does Amelia bring to the table as a STORY? Why did they write her that way? Back then, I trusted the writers. It was fascinating to me that Sam found comfort with a woman who was such a mess. It told me where HE was at. What a fascinating and complex choice. These secondary characters need to reveal something about our leads. Amelia – like Bela – was HUGELY revealing about our leads. I also didn’t know I was supposed to “hate” that Sam didn’t look for Dean, and see it as – dreaded word – “ooc.” So any time something bad happens, or your “fave” does something you don’t approve of – it’s “ooc.” Convenient! I find Lady Macbeth sinister, but I love her as a character. I don’t want to meet Raskolnikov in a dark alley, but he’s one of the greatest characters ever written. I didn’t know I was supposed to run out of town on a rail any woman who DARED to “come between the boys.” Nope. I don’t watch the show that way. People who aren’t on this wavelength are really turned off by me. Lol. I’ve seen your subtweets.
I prefer Sam and Dean fucked up. Not ENEMIES, or at loggerheads, but fucked up. Human, making mistakes, screwing up, hiding things from each other (thinking they’re protecting the other), always making the same mistakes because they can’t help it. This feels very true to me. This whole “relatable” thing – a character deemed good/bad based on whether or not you “relate” to them … this is fine for fans (I guess? I’ve never rolled that way, but never mind) … but for a critic, which I am, and how I’ve approached writing about this show – relatability doesn’t matter. When Tommy Lee Jones came and spoke at my school, he was talking about Executioner’s Song, where he played serial killer Gary Gilmore. Someone asked if you needed to “like” the character you played. TLJ said, “No. You don’t need to like the character. You need to want to WATCH the character.” This is so well said. No matter what either of those guys did in early seasons, I wanted to watch what happened. Even when they betrayed each other, did awful things, etc. I’m not running around “defending” this or that choice. That’s not how I engage with stories. So all of this “I hated when Sam wouldn’t forgive Dean in Season 9” noise … is really foreign to me. Okay, yes, it was upsetting, but my God, it was great dramatically. It was supposed to be stressful and uncomfortable to watch. It showed character growth, and development.
Wanting everyone to be nice and supportive to each other all the time is fine for fanfic and boring as hell onscreen (which we have now seen for the past 3 seasons, which are basically crowd-sourced from the fandom). I sound like I’m down on fanfic. Please. One of the first things I ever wrote was at the age of 12, and it was a screenplay about Han Solo’s scrappy 12-year-old sister. But I don’t think George Lucas needed to listen to my fanfic. I never showed it to a soul. It has nothing to do with the movie itself, it was a FANTASY. So anyway, back to the point. What is the point?
june 2019 viewing diary, sheila o'malley
#tldr. no . she's an ACADEMIC#incest cw#if we were putting ppl in boxes. shed probably be best defined as a bibro#but cant we in this post riverdale society coexist with sheila omalley#ask#anonymous#spnwatch#sheila posting#theres another post where she says i dont think everyone is gay and i also dont Do wincest
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I tried to be nice
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Became this:
THEM: hi! thanks for the answers I really appreciate the discussion. normally if someone ships something I don’t like or something like that, I’ll just leave them alone but.. just to be clear I completely respect all of your opinions, even agree with some of them, even if we might disagree on the incest and Castiel haha. So I don’t mean any disrespect with this at all, please let me know if I’m out of line though!
But... I saw some things you said, and they come across to me in a way that I don’t think you intended? I feel really awkward sending this haha, you’re very nice and I don’t think you said anything on purpose, but I just.. wanted to let you know that some of the things regarding your opinion on certain characters come across not very well? I don’t think it’s intentional or anything, and I don’t mean to call you out at all which is why I didn’t want to point it out in the replies y’know?
Don’t get me wrong though, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with not liking castiel or destiel. I’ve been watching the show for a while with my dad, and he isn’t a huge fan either, I don’t think that’s a problem :)
I’d continue without waiting for a response but I don’t want to say something you’ve already been told, or continue without knowing if I’ve said something out of line already 😅
ME: I'm kind of distracted dealing with my Mom's rehab center. But you can keep going.
THEM: Alright! I’ve tried rephrasing this a million times but I don’t know how to make it seem not antagonistic. I promise I don’t mean that you’re doing it intentionally, it’s just, uh a lot of your criticism of spn feels like it could be read as homophobic? Again I don’t think YOU are I just wanted you to know it kind of reads that way!
That sounded so confrontational. I really don’t mean it that way 😭
ME: HOMOPHOBIC? Really? A lot of the 'proof' your fellow shippers use border on stereotypes but you think I'M homophobic? Considering my top two ships are Wincest and Malec. Yeah, sounds confrontational.
THEM: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it like that. I guess there’s no other way to say it, but I understand why you feel accused. What do you mean by proof..?
Also I don’t really think having gay ships means you can’t be homophobic. *I* used to be homophobic years ago, and I’m a gay person!
ME: How old are you? https://nancylou444.tumblr.com/post/154098904136/a-guide-to-dean-winchesters-imaginary-bisexuality
THEM: yeah this is starting to get frustrating. I’m gonna be real with you, why does it matter if people think dean is bisexual? like, bottom line, that is my question for you
and your answer will determine if your veracity is homophobic. why does it matter that some people think dean is bisexual. not the fans or actors or writers or anything. why does it matter that some viewers will watch, and they will think dean is bisexual?
ME: My problem isn't that some people think he is bi IN FANON, my problem is that they want CONFIRMATION OF A FANON SHIP. And that some people DENY how the show ended. These same people think that fake weddings are more canon than the FINAL EPISODE.
THEM: I get what you mean, but how is it a fanon ship when it’s confirmed romantic from one side, and interpretable as mutually reciprocated in Latin America? (I’m going to disregard the bit about the wedding, because I’m a firm believer in Neil Gaiman variety death of the author. Also that’s just people having fun with fanon, who cares?)
ME: Confirmed romantic?By whom MISHA, who wanted to sell necklaces? Have you never said 'i love you' to a FRIEND or FAMILY member? The dub is not canon, so don't even try using that as proof. Death of the author is just another way of saying MY VIEW OF THE SHOW IS SUPERIOR TO HOW THE CREATOR WANTS TO SEE IT. Jensen has said many times that the ship isn't canon and that Dean is straight. But it's better to believe what Misha says because he agrees with you. You think somebody is bi because of how they sit or the color clothes they wear? That would make YOU homophobe.
THEM: LOL You know what? I change my answer. I looked through your blog and you ACTIVELY and viscously hate Cas, Charlie, Claire, Kaia and the implication that Jack may not be straight. You’ve said Cas coming out as gay and in love with dean makes the rest of his actions predatory, compared him to a teenage girl, called him creepy, and openly rejoiced in your idea that dean looked ‘disgusted with him’. You said that Claire is awful, that Kaia is a wooden plank, that they ‘shoved them together’ for ‘woke points’ and said that Jody saying Claire was IN LOVE WITH Kaia ‘doesnt count’ and called it ‘lip service’. And it doesn’t end there! After all this, you said that you preferred the old better s4 Claire. Is it because she was ostensibly straight? Are you uncomfortable with queer women? And then you have the audacity to use these characters (Claire and Kaia and Charlie) as reasons to epicly own the Hellers and claim they already have represention. You are a completely disingenuous bitch and I don’t care to be nice to you anymore! I don’t feel AT ALL charitable toward you anymore, and I don’t care if you have gay ships. Gay people aren’t here for you to fetishize! You CONSTANTLY mock and ridicule jokes made by queer people regarding deans bisexuality or Cas being gay or any number of things. You constantly reaffirm that Dean is straight and call people who think otherwise delusional and disgusting, while you think dean is in romantic sexual love with his male sibling. You are openly hostile to the idea of non-binary jack and were pissed that Alcal endorsed that. You devalue Jack’s value and relationship to Cas who is, textually, his father figure. I have NO reason not to think that you are homophobic. I don’t care anymore! You’re a huge bitch and, judging by your prior responses and posts, a genuine dialogue regarding queerness in spn is impossible. You regard any instance of canonically queer moments ‘lip service’ and so regard it. You actively hate every canonically gay character and degrade them using traditionally homophobic tropes and stereotypes.
Feel free to explain how you aren’t homophobic. I’m so sorry if I got the wrong impression.
ME: Wow I see your true colors have come out HELLER.
THEM: Idc if you think I’m mean. Go ahead and make a post about me lol, have fun with it. Give me a moment to respond to your paragraph it’s... a lot to dissect.
I’ll touch on your comments about the dub and the Spanish language in a moment. First though
I ’m gonna be real with you, I don’t think you know what death of the author is. Neil Gaiman’s variety of the dead author principal is that once canon ends, the story belongs to those that consume and engage with it. That’s... also literally the theme of supernaturals final season. Anyway I really recommend you read up on death of the author and Neil Gaiman’s takes on fanon. It’s a fun way to consume your media, and in the end that’s what I’m here for.
I don’t care what Misha says, and I don’t care what Jensen says! I think they are both queer because I have eyes and watched the show. I think it’s a lovely narrative that is supported by canon, and it’s fine if you disagree with that
On your last sentence there... lol. It’s a common joke in queer circles that gays can’t sit properly, specifically bisexuals. Same thing with the clothing, it’s a SUPER common joke for example that lesbians wear flannel. Maybe you need to go outside and talk to some normal, non-incest shipping queer people. But what do I know!
And finally... ‘the Spanish dub isnt canon’
I am literally cuban. My first language is SPANISH. my entire household speaks Spanish, and my family past 1st cousins don’t speak any English. My Boricua cousins have watched supernatural in full for years, and they watch it in Spanish. Do you think America is the center of the universe? Do you think our media is somehow less than yours, that our interpretations of English language media isn’t valid? What, do you think we are idiots who don’t know how to analyze literature and media? Do you think the people who work at Telemundo, people employed as dubbers and translators, you think they do a worse job than the American crew?
Why, because they aren’t American or don’t speak English? ‘Te amo’ said to a non family member is, in 99% of any instance, ROMANTIC. it’s something you say to your spouse in serious situations like weddings!! Even MARRIED people don’t normally say te amo, everyone uses te quiero unless it is very serious or romantic in context.
All of my family who are Spanish language, they heard dean say ‘y a yo ti, cas’ and think that they were in romantic love. Sorry dude! The United States might be the center of your universe, but Latin America is HUGE. Spanish is one of the most spoken languages in the WORLD. In fact, more people speak Spanish than English. Sorry that you seem to hate gay characters SO MUCH you have to say an entire language somehow isn’t valid to consume media in!
ME:
Obviously this heller is batshit crazy.
Some of those things she thinks I said just show she has no idea how to follow a tumblr thread.
You are a completely disingenuous bitch and I don’t care to be nice to you anymore! I don’t feel AT ALL charitable toward you anymore, and I don’t care if you have gay ships. Gay people aren’t here for you to fetishize! You CONSTANTLY mock and ridicule jokes made by queer people regarding deans bisexuality or Cas being gay or any number of things. You constantly reaffirm that Dean is straight and call people who think otherwise delusional and disgusting, while you think dean is in romantic sexual love with his male sibling.
Wow.
I have NO reason not to think that you are homophobic. I don’t care anymore! You’re a huge bitch and, judging by your prior responses and posts, a genuine dialogue regarding queerness in spn is impossible. You regard any instance of canonically queer moments ‘lip service’ and so regard it. You actively hate every canonically gay character and degrade them using traditionally homophobic tropes and stereotypes.
Where have I hated canon gay characters and degraded them using tropes and stereotypes? The bitch has me confused with HER FELLOW SHIPPERS.
Gotta love how she is defending the Spanish dub. Hit a nerve did I?
It’s a common joke in queer circles that gays can’t sit properly, specifically bisexuals. Same thing with the clothing, it’s a SUPER common joke for example that lesbians wear flannel. Maybe you need to go outside and talk to some normal, non-incest shipping queer people.
Now who is using stereotypes?
#destiehellers#batshit crazy#your headcanon doesn't mean shit dean is straight#dub doesn't make it canon
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