Idk I think the excess Fandomification of show developers writing strategies has really fucked up a lot of originally good shows.

I think catering to all the loudest groups in a fan base over writing a story that’s coherent and makes sense is not good writing actually. I think propping up dead supporting characters over live ones because fans liked that dead character is bad writing. I think choosing the ending of a story the writers presumably had plotted out at least somewhat based primarily on the most commonly trending characters/ships/plots is bad and lazy writing.

i love how ur bio says safe space for hopper haters bc too many ppl in this fandom are always like “whaaaaat!? but how can u not like jopper 🥺” when he is not only a full grown man who abuses his power and was horrible to Joyce in s3 but also his character itself is literally copaganda

and it’s concerning and so weird (but also unsurprising) that jopper is like… elevated as this god tier ship, even in queer spaces, when in reality it’s pretty mid and also why would I want to ship Joyce byers with a cop

Hey booksandpaperss!

I am a safe space for ALL HATING. But specifically Jim Copper hate simply because he is shown a lot of undeserved grace by the fandom and the writers.

Since it's now in vogue to hate on s3 I'll take this opportunity to escape being called a negative nancy for once and just a hatering hater. Here goes:

My hate for Hopper is not as a result of season 3 but in fact it began with s2. (s1 a wee bit) But truly honestly deeply since season 2.

Hopper in season 2

After giving up Eleven's location in the prior season, Hopper then out of the goodness of his heart (😒) starts leaving Eggos for El in a reverse HansEl and GretEl. The feral El now has a home. But is it a home? Or just another prison? Hopper leaves her alone in the cabin with nothing but a TV. And so El spends her days mindlessly going through all the shit the idiot box has to offer. The only time she's actively interested in the TV is when she wants to use the static to get into the void. Because she has been kept away from the ONE friend she made out of the lab. And let's bffr. It's Mike. She is looking for Mike. And Mike too is the only one thinking about her. Hopper keeping her away from him and lying and being nothing but and angy aggressive cop of a dad is supposed to make the audience feel.....wait what are we supposed to feel? Mad at Hopper? Cuz the end result was people hating on El rebelling against Hopper. And it is all because El's resolution at the end of the Lost Sister episode was......that she needed to go back to Hopper and her friends. However, again it is a point in time when Hopper's at the lab and in mortal danger.

So since we love deep dives and shit and developing lore around characters, would she have been compelled to return to Hopper were he just, idk sitting in his cabin or at the station or whatever. A lot of ST is just about characters deciding to do stuff when someone is in REAL DANGER™️ But specifically with Hopper, he only steps up as dad when El's in danger. Otherwise he's treating her as a pet, something Mike was wrongfully accused of.

The whole entire (almost) year that El was with Hopper we do not see a change in her personality. Her rage has worsened. Her vocabulary is still lacking. In spite of the word of the days. There's no female presence in her life. He neither recruited Joyce nor her aunt (though that would have been sus, agreed n yet would it have been any different seeing as El managed to do it alone.) She's been held hostage for her own good.

Hopper: You put us in danger.

El: You promise. I go. I never leave. Nothing ever happens.

And then he grounds her. Like she was living it up otherwise. (S2E4)

We know it was because this was El's story of rebellion and trying to find her identity and so the story does not have Hopper do these things. But that still means that the story chose for Hopper to not do these things. He is even shown apologising (meh. half assed like his foil Mike, but that's for later) for it towards the end. And yet, that's something that's rarely discussed in fandom circles while talking about Hopper.

Hopper in Season 3

Oh he proves he's a blackhole alright. Sucked Joyce's character development. He's only marginally improved letting Mike see her but beyond that it's still mostly the same. She still is under-socialised. Speaks like that. El herself seeks out Max. Joyce is still too busy being ungrateful (I know not the intent, but the execution nonetheless) she's still not leaving the cabin much and has some curfew. Again which is, well why is it there? Cuz she's been coolly gallivanting with Max at the mall and everywhere else without a problem.

He's a proper asshole to Mike and a bully. Who tf threatens murder to a 13 year old kid? Like between having a chat and threatening homicide, he could come up with ZERO options. He needs emotional laxatives that aren't just anger and bullying.

Hopper in season 3 is an unfunny comic relief. A man baby. A bully who uses his cop privileges. Who treats the woman he supposedly likes like shit. He was so mad about Joyce not meeting up with him despite her telling him the reason. I mean mister you did that with Eleven too and just expected her to understand. The juvenile hUmOUr and the macho man action scenes where he's outwitting trained Russian mercenaries (lmao) is a step down from the basement he was already in. Him treating Alexei like shit when he was the only one who could have helped them. Make it make sense. (Anti-Russia/USSR pro USA copaganda and nothing else)

Also beyond all of this I simply hate Hopper for taking away valuable screentime from the kids that this show is supposedly about but hasn't really been that for some time now. He's a white male war veteran cop who's a Hawkins native and was a popular kid in school too. So he's not even an outsider in terms of being the new man in town, let alone the shit that really matters.

Hopper in Season 4

Not dead enough.

Jopper throughout the show

Mid chemistry. Joyce is already a semi-absent mother but becomes entirely absent after Hopper's message from Russia. She has ZERO clue of what her kids are going through in Cali and then has the fucking audacity to walk out on them without even letting them know that she might not return. She also leaves the only responsible person in that household with the charge as if she ever took it. She is now been relegated to being the comic relief which is neither comical and far from a relief and Hopper's girlfriend. Every season she has proven to be right on the money with her instincts and every season everyone including Hopper question her as if she's the dumb one. Hello. Do you guys clear up your memory after every season? It's annoying and one note. Hopper is a jealous manbaby all of s3 and a fucking liar. "i shOuldn't hAVe seNt yOu the LeTteR" Bitch u did. You wanted out. Dasvidaniya! El's college fund. But you'll only need it if you make it through school 🤷‍♀️. WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN HOMESCHOOL HELLO. Though I do commend the subversion of the found family trope where both the adults are pathetic parents. Do love one of the main couples being failparents! (is that a thing? or are they pioneers?)

coming out as a passive jopper hater bc the insane level of capitalist pandering they did with s3 (with ERICA who is like. one of the worst, stereotyped portrayals of a black girl ive ever seen, bless her heart) was truly crazy. combine that with the copaganda and the general attitude of hopper in s3 which was played off as 'awkward loser guy doesnt know what to do with Feelings more at 8' was a bit .... Eh :/ to me. because it is so obviously a fictional character and show but like. disliking hopper/jopper bc of the ideals st is perpetuating and the fact that they arent compatible at All in s3 (to me, atleast) is valid. some ppl might just think that jopper is unhealthy and/or 'overrated'. because they do sort of pay a disproportionate amount of attention to jopper, compared to the other canon romantic ships (afaik, bc of the screen time counter) and that can be Weird, esp with the... how should i say this? balancer/savior role hopper takes in the relationship (we constantly see him placating joyce, sometimes even being slightly patronizing, and also they place a lot of importance on him saving joyce from a lot of stuff, which is cool and sick if it wasnt for the fact that it directly correlates with him being a cop, yk). and the general power imbalance bc he's a Cop and abuses his position of power constantly, and that is exactly Why anything that joyce does is seen as a #insane girlboss category 5 woman moment because she simply has the short stick in the power race and when she does manage to make an impact DESPITE her economic/social/'general uselessness in say in Major decision-making when it comes to authorities' shortcomings it is seen as an amazing win. hopper on his own is extremely fleshed out as well, because we get to see his arc play out with his relationships with his daughter and ex-wife and el and re-learning how to be a parent and how to not let love allude him, and that is lovely! it's so great to see the adults in the show being focused on! but joyce is absolutely disregarded and underdeveloped as a character of her own right outside of her relationships with hopper or her kids. we see that she is determined and a force to be reckoned with and that she cares very deeply for the people she loves and would go to insane lengths for them but all that doesn't Mean anything, because we never see a backstory for her. we never figure out who she is without her family or hopper, or what her motives and aspirations and emotional shortcomings and stumbles and mistakes are. for a character to be fully fleshed out, they need to be an interesting, refreshing and palatable character On Their Own without their relationships with other characters, and we just don't see that with joyce. like u have Thee winona ryder on ur show, and u forsake developing her character in favor of developing hopper's character with /not the best taste/ and causing her to be a blank slate of a mother, lover, woman and friend, but not a PERSON. all she's been reduced to is a Mother and Hopper's Girlfriend, and honestly, that's the worst decision they could've made in relation to her and her relationship with hopper.

anyway, all this to say; these are my thoughts on the matter, but i'm definitely not hating on people who enjoy jopper passively and DEFINITELY not any by/ler (the most predominant fandom im part of in the parent fandom of st) who enjoys them as a ship with their own dynamic separate from canon. because the by/ler fandom is NOT a monolith and nobody is obligated to agree with me or change their opinion if it doesn't align with mine or be forced to look at my opinion and feel bad for shipping anything. im not going to act Holier Than Thou for expressing my opinion and u should definitely continue shipping jopper if it makes u happy! as long everybody recognizes the copaganda and capitalist mindset grind propaganda shit in st (which is Pretty Obvious) and respects that while shipping what they want, i have no problem with it. all that is to say; peace and fucking love. can we (the by/ler fandom) stop fighting abt jopper we all have our own opinions this is bc we are Not a hivemind or a monolith and not obligated to have the same opinions relating to all aspects of st just because we happen to ship one thing. i am a hater and a lover

The lack of consequences for Jim Hopper

It really bothers me that Hopper is never called out for his bullshit. And it seriously bothers me that El took his name and that the fandom and the Duffer Bros glorifies the guy when he can come off as abusive as Brenner and Lonnie, but gets away with everything because David Harbour plays him and because the Duffer Bros likes the character and everyone acts like Hopper is a good dad and J**per is relationship goals.

Let’s look at what Hopper has done throughout the series

Selling out El to Brenner and absolutely no consequences. It was never brought up again. Not even when El called out Brenner on his shit. This seriously pissed me off. You could’ve had Brenner playing two face with the Americans and the Russians. The Russians keeps Hopper hostage, while the Americans helps him restore El’s powers and sending Sullivan and his forces to kill The Byers and Mike(also ordering Will’s abduction) and Brenner trying to manipulate El by using the knowledge of what Hopper did to save Will. This could’ve given a neat character arc for El. they could possibly force El to go dark and we’d have Brenner and El as the villains in season 5 or have Hopper and the party to save Jane from Brenner’s manipulation aka Hopper being the angel on El’s shoulder(and actually apologizing for everything) while Brenner is the devil whispering in El’s ear.

The fact that, because he sold her out to Brenner, El was still alive and only he knew, so he decided to take advantage of that and get another daughter out of it.

Keeping El prisoner and constantly promising her that she would be able to see Mike and the others "soon", despite clearly having no desire to follow through on that promise.

Treating El like she's a regular kid by giving her regular punishments (no tv), when she's not a regular kid, and has no other way of passing the time while he, again, keeps her prisoner.

Threatening to send El back to her abusers when she calls him out on the previous two points.

And El still lives with this fuck after everything he’s done and took his last name. Gee, you didn’t think she wanted to take HER MOTHER’S NAME???? Hell, Becky could’ve agreed to look after El and even moved to Hawkins so El could see her friends and so El could see her mother. But nope, we have to force this El and Hopper dynamic and act like he was never an abusive turd towards her.

Getting ridiculously overprotective with El because she starts spending so much time with Mike (and why would that possibly be something they would do? Oh right, keeping them apart for almost a year).

Lying to Mike, a fourteen year old child, about the possibility of his grandmother being seriously injured (something that's happened before), then outright threatening him when he gets called out on it. And that's after writing out a letter that, while very guilt-trippy and "This is all about me!", was still better than what he did. But oh no, since he wrote the letter, that makes it all okay, right? Ugh. Oh and guess what? HE NEVER FUCKING APOLOGIZED TO MIKE and yet Mike still hugged him, but not his literal best friend since Kindergarten

And threatening Mike resulted in unnecessary conflict between Mike, Max and El. Mike refuses to tell anyone what Hopper did and god, season 3 is shit.

Treating Joyce like absolute shit, acting like he's entitled to her.

SO MUCH police brutality, from straight-up torturing someone (no matter how much of a slimeball that someone is, it's still fucked up) taking someone hostage, to gunning down an entire group of people because he was upset that Murray was taking too long (from Hopper's perspective) to talk their way through.

And HOPPER IS NEVER CALLED OUT ON THREATENING MIKE! Mike never tells anyone. Can you imagine the righteous fury coursing through Nancy’s veins if she found out what Hopper did to Mike in Season 3? She’s already pissed off at the sexist pricks at her work, then she finds out? Imagine Joyce, Karen, Nancy, Jonathan, El and Steve ALL find out what Hopper did to Mike and then they give him the "intervention” calling him on his shit or hell, Hopper’s screaming at everyone, everyone’s screaming at him, Hopper puts his hands on Mike,  Ted’s had enough and punches Hopper’s lights out. He should’ve lost the respect of everyone, lost custody of El(El lives with Joyce and has her name changed back to Jane El Ives) and everyone hates him and he sacrifices himself because he has nothing left. 

The worst part? He hasn’t been called out on his shit when it was relevant, he hasn’t been called out when it could’ve been integral with Brenner’s return and he will never be called out. Now everyone wants to act like Hopper was always a good dad to El, he never sold her out to Brenner or threaten to send her back to Hawkins lab or threatened Mike. Everything he did gets swept under the rug and that’s complete and total bullshit. 

At least Jonathan acknowledged taking naked pics of Nancy was wrong. At least Steve realized he was an asshole and had the best damn character arc in the series. Even if he died, at least Billy somewhat apologized to Max, had he lived I think Billy could’ve made amends to everyone and work to be a better person, probably find some closure by confronting Neil for his abuse and finding his mother to find that closure and work to be a better person afterwards and this is coming from someone who hates Billy Hargrove. All I’m saying, everyone acknowledges to some degree what they did was wrong. Hopper never has any sense of guilt for the shit he’s done in the series.

The Duffer Bros and fandom’s glorification of Hopper is very similar to how DONTNOD/Deck Nine hero worship David Madsen in the Life Is Strange games. For those unfamiliar with LIS. David Madsen is Chloe Price’s step-father. He abuses her, puts cameras all over her house and makes her feel like a prisoner in her own home. Then at school, David stalked and harassed Kate Marsh and Rachel Amber and to some degree, Max Caulfield. The only difference? There is one scene where David is called out on his shit. Now why am I comparing this to the glorification to Hopper? Cause in the game developers minds, ONE good deed is enough to whitewash and act like 3 years of being an abusive step-father and stalking girls at school never happened. And speaking of, in LIS 2, they fucking gave him a second chance at life, but Kate Marsh, the girl he stalked didn’t, she died. 

Hopper is borderline abusive towards El, he wants to control her, threatened Mike and feels like he owns Joyce. Hopper is abusive, yet no one wants to call him out on his bullshit.

You might be thinking “he did have consequences, he was in prison in Russia” and “he said he was a curse, see he does feel guilt” that wasn’t consequences and that wasn’t his guilt. He didn’t own up to ANY OF HIS SHIT. He didn’t think selling El and the party to Brenner was bad, he didn’t think treating El like shit was bad, he didn’t think THREATING A FUCKING CHILD WAS BAD and good fucking god, fuck Hopper. 

You know what? Maybe Hopper having no consequences for his actions and not being called on his shit is a commentary on the police being abusive monsters who get away with everything...on second thought, The Duffer Bros aren’t that smart and just refuse to let their favs be called out on their shit. 

go off

tbh i think mileven will remain canon, but it'll seem weird to me if they still portray their relationship (and jopper for that matter) as flawless ~TWU WUV~ but totally ditch jancy. i'm biased, but it would feel off to me.

I agree completely. The strongest argument in favor of Jancy breaking up—really one of the few serious arguments, as far as I’m concerned—is that they are both very young and might benefit from experiencing more of the world separately/not having to make their college plans around each other. I have a hard time imagining a “Nancy and Jonathan go their separate ways” ending that wouldn’t leave me feeling unsatisfied and a little jerked around, plus I don’t trust them to address Nancy’s loneliness or Jonathan’s anything, but I get why other people think it’s a good idea. If I weren’t so invested in both characters it’d probably sound sensible.

Yet this argument applies even more strongly to Mileven, who are even younger and less experienced (especially El), and who don’t seem to share many goals/interests. Anyone who’s nodding along approvingly with “don’t go to college with your high school sweetheart” isn’t going to (or at least shouldn’t) be smiling on two characters (one lab-raised) meeting at twelve and staying together forever. I guess the show could avoid the issue somewhat by ending the story before their senior year and not doing any flash-forwards? Still, they both seemed pretty restless in S4.

(I will also say the applies strongly to St4ncy, supposing that happens. What, she’s going to break up with her high school boyfriend, only to immediately get together with her previous high school boyfriend? Is Steve going to follow her to Boston? What’s he going to do there? I think there’s a reason most St4ncy fics I’ve read either focus on the immediate aftermath of S4 or flash far into the future.)

And, yeah, Jopper doesn’t have the logistical problems (imminent or eventual) of the teen/YA ships, and I think they enjoy each other’s company and work well together for the bulk of the series, plus they have the kids in common, but I really hate how rude and dismissive he is to her in S3. It’s so jarring how they play that for comedy after Lonnie spends S1 gaslighting Joyce so he could exploit Will’s death and using her mental health struggles to scare Jonathan into not telling her about the demogorgon. And not to defend Lonnie but at least he didn’t know that shit was real (unless certain theories are true). I end up just kind of ignoring their S3 dynamic tbh.

i think a lot of people see joyce as this bright, sunshinesque character, which she is very comforting and sweet and i could go on for days about it, but it’s a shame that the show has made her into that after the potential joyce and winona had in season 1 because i think at her core and how she should be conveyed and recognized is as a little.... haunting. haunted.

she’s a single mother whose ex husband abused her and did even after their relationship was over. then her son goes missing because of a monster that no one believes her about until the end. then they continue to not believe her for three seasons after that. i could write forever about the changes i would make to her character after what we got in season 3.

the duffers have turned her into an attractive, digestible love interest with an out of character disinterest in her kids and good mental health when it’s the opposite. by season 4, joyce would be obsessively clingy to her children and her mental health would be worse than it was in season 2. she shouldn’t be this butt-of-the-joke, laughable, cool and collected mother. joyce can be comforting and warm in other ways. the way she struggles with her mental health in season one is comforting. her episodes and inability to explain it to others and needs for comfort even if it isn’t healthy (reaching out to lonnie) is comforting. the way she tries to still be there for jonathan and rebuild their relationship and she tries so hard to be better even if she falls short is warm and good. she’s trying and beginning to put in the work but we never see where that gets her. we never see the efforts she puts in because she just drops the younger kids with jonathan in season 4 and leaves the state which is completely erasing any progress joyce had made and not even acknowledging it.

*i’m not saying i want joyce to suffer or she can’t be happy, i’m saying that the duffers don’t know how to give women good storylines and have given joyce a poorly written plot where her getting better doesn’t make sense.

part of the uncomfortable shift from season 2 to 3 is that most of characters, especially joyce, become so off brand and out of character (aka the jokey, sunshinesque outline) that it’s hard to see where their storyline could go. for joyce, her storyline outside of hopper is nonexistent. the way she acts towards her kids isn’t how the previous seasons had set her up. and hopper treats her like lonnie in season 3 - making it even more difficult to watch. season 4 is… more of that but intensified and shown in rose colored glasses because j*pp*r has been hyped up for so long. they should’ve continued the season 1 dark and unstable vibe they had because it could bring so much more to any character’s story but especially joyce’s.

joyce byers had so much going for her and it’s ruined and i will never forgive the duffers.

The fact that the writers feel the need to have characters explain how meaningful every single interaction between Nancy and Steve is this season *to* Nancy and Steve and especially the audience, is turning me off that pairing more than anything Nancy and Steve could have ever done.

I know that this is a storytelling device that a lot of writers lean on but in this show it annoys me to no end. It's why I couldn't stand Murray in 2 and 3. In 2 he was used to recap *in detail* why Stancy is bad and Jancy is good (which, why the fuck would that random guy care about that?). In 3 he screamed to the whole car about the issues between Joyce and Hopper (is Jopper their ship name, I never cared to look that up?) and now nearly everyone Steve and Nancy come into contact with feels the need to add their two cents, which I kinda get with Dustin and Robin and Jonathan's new friend, but Eddie and that photographer kid that gets killed? Plus all that weird enraged stammering that Nancy and Jonathan did to explain their relationship status ...

Just, if you don't trust your writing and your actors to convey all that without having to explain to your audience in great detail every intention you have, just don't do it. Which is weird, because I think all the actors have good chemistry and are able to act that out convincingly. I don't know why, but in this show and especially this season with Stancy it just grates on me like nothing else that happens. And it takes out any enjoyment I had of that pairing.

I try to not post hate but I needed this of my chest.

Don't read if you're a fan of Jim Hopper from Stranger things.

Incoming Rant

I really really hated him in s3 and how cruel he was to the people (women) around him. That he did not die at the end of that season was such a shame. I was so done with him I just want him gone.

The whole save hopper plot in s4 actually made me drop that season. This show is not worth it anymore, it is not fun to watch.

I know this is silly but it has sorta of spilled over to the actor? Or at least to his other characters, I could not watch that sexy santa movie because it made me think of Hopper. 🙃

The thing you said about jopper resonated with me. I loved them up until s3/s4. They really fell off the wagon for me. Not to say they aren't cute together or that they don't deserve to be happy together. But what i felt for them definitely fizzled out.

Thanks! Yeah I agree. I feel like their dynamic changed. In seasons 1 and 2 there was this level of support and trust between them while also having rich history together as friends (or more) that never fully came back after all the bafoonish bickering in season 3. I do think that support is still there but it feels tainted now. Idk. I can’t put my finger on it.

i am the rare intersection of intelligence stranger things fan (anti jancy AND anti jopper)

not to b an evil cop-hating commie but please i just want hopper to die in volume 2. if he and joyce get together and raise el, will, and jonathan together i will throw up. joyce is a communist lesbian and deserves better than a 🐷

So is it time to also come out as anti joyce x hopper romance

Time for whom? I've never been in the closet. Hate Jopper. Serves the copper. Does nothing for Joyce.

I just absolutely can’t get behind Joyce/Hopper and I don’t understand why they’re so popular?

We got to see how dysfunctional and Not Good for each other they were in season 3. And especially when you compare their relationship with how good Joyce and Bob for each other and I just can’t stop thinking about how much of a downgrade Hopper was from Bob. Like it feels like any relationship they have is just her settling for him because she can never find someone so perfect for her again.

Me everytime I have to see J**per nonsense:I can't believe Bob died for this shit

am i the only one who doesn't like them i can't stand hopper 😭